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Becoming UnDone
127 | The Life, Lessons, and Legacy of Dick Tomey Part 14: The Untold Love Story of Coach Tomey & Nanci Kincaid
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- [00:04]
Nancy Kincaid
This is becoming undone. Great coaches go into impossible places and make them possible. You know, they take no five star kids and turn some kids into five stars. They're a great coach and that's what he was. I'm Nancy Kincaid and I am undone.
- [00:33]
Toby Brooks
All right, you ready?
- [00:34]
Unnamed Speaker
Word association or I guess, phrase association Football award decals.
- [00:41]
Toby Brooks
What do you got?
- [00:44]
Unnamed Speaker
I have a very particular memory of a 1990s or so SportsCenter commercial where an Ohio State equipment manager goes around the office sticking OSU Buckeye Ward decals on whatever or even whoever happens to be closest to him every time something good happens. Ordinarily, I'd insert a clip right about here. Unfortunately for you and for me, I spent over 45 minutes on a side quest trying to find this iconic commercial with zero luck. Turns out I'm not alone. I did find a thread from way back in 2013 on the 247 sports site for Ohio State, the elegantly titled Bucknuts.com where countless people okay, I'll be honest, I probably could have counted, but.
- [01:33]
Toby Brooks
I chose not to.
- [01:34]
Unnamed Speaker
So we'll just say countless people recall this same commercial. People loved it, they remember it, but nobody can find it anywhere on the Internet. It just so happens that the same network that gives us literally thousands of hours of Stephen A. Smith going on one of his angry rants about everything from the Cowboys to LeBron to his least favorite fabric softener, whatever that we never asked for. Mind you, that same ESPN, they can't be bothered to find and put a 32nd classic sports center commercial from the 90s up that again, a countless throng of us would enjoy. Did I just use the word throng? I did.
- [02:17]
Toby Brooks
But I digress.
- [02:19]
Unnamed Speaker
Either that or it's all an elaborate Mandela effect kind of situation we got going on. And while we all remember it, maybe it never really happened. At any rate, this is not an official nor unofficial Ohio State affiliated podcast. However, I'd argue that in my mind, no college football program award decal is quite as iconic as as the Buckeye Michigan Wolverines and Georgia dog bones also come to mind in my admittedly limited sample size. But this Buckeye commercial. I still quote this to the bewilderment of pretty much everyone around me somewhat regularly, but when they do recognize it, we share that eye contact and a good laugh. Whether I say it out loud or even a little under my breath, whether I actually do the motion or not, when I see something awesome from somebody else worthy of recognition, I picture that kindly old OSU equipment guy with that Buckeye sticker on the tip of his thumb and emphatically saying as he smacks it down Buckeye. It's a certified, recognized, enviable, adhesive backed, universal stamp of approval. After I couldn't find the footage of the actual commercial, I did a little adjacent Googling. That's not innuendo by the way. Adjacent Googling. As it so happens, the idea for the Buckeye Award decal came from OSU athletic trainer Ernie Biggs, who in 1968 convinced legendary coach Woody Hayes to award the stickers with the Buckeye leaves as a motivational tool to recognize standout plays. Give that at his flowers. That's some revolutionary innovation right there. And it was all the athletic trainers idea. Way to go Ernie. So anyway, it's a tradition lots of teams and coaches have employed over the years. It's one I was familiar with when I showed up in Tucson in 1998 where our team similarly was awarded paw print decals for good or maybe not good but exceptional individual plays. In 1998 the Wildcats were pretty selfless bunch. They went 12 and 1, finished fourth in the nation and won the Holiday Bowl. Lots of paw prints to be seen on those lids. Especially as the season began to wind down in 1999 we kind of went the other way. Preseason number three or four depending on where you looked ended the year unranked. No ball game. Fewer paw prints. So going into 2000 coach Dick Thomey came up with a plan that I'll be honest, I've never heard of before or since now. Maybe someone somewhere else has done it. I don't know. But the idea was simple.00 0.0 individual award decals that was done. Coach said it celebrated self over team in its place a maximum of 5 team based decals that would be determined by the week prior. Coach Tomi was famous for his five keys to victory. When I got to Tucson and went to the meeting room where the team met and we famously had those all hands meetings that I've talked about prior. They were boldly printed on the meeting room wall in McHale Center. He talked about him regularly. Win the turnover battle. Win the critical situation. Win the mental game. Win the kicking game or special teams. Win the fourth quarter. Five keys all measurable. Successfully. Complete the key and the whole team gets a paw print in the corresponding position 1 through 5 just to the left of the red, white and blue center stripe on the back of the helmet. I look back through the Internet to try to find a picture of those 1 through 5 or 1, 2, 5 or 2 3, 5, whatever, depending on how we'd done the week before. And I really couldn't find any good clear shots, but in my mind I know we did it. And here's the thing though, what the team did and didn't do changed from week to week. At best, if you did all five of the Keys to victory, you got five paw print decals. At worst, you got none. So for equipment managers Wendell Neal, J.T. galloway, their student manager staff, they'd sometimes have to actually peel off stickers that the team had earned week before last but they didn't earn in the current week. Or they'd have to place ones that weren't earned two weeks ago but were earned this week. It was a week to week report card for everyone to see about how we as a team had executed the five Keys to Victory here's what I loved about Reinforced the idea that football is a team sport and that the five keys to victory matter each and every one. It's easy to see that it was in football, but later on in life. And while that season didn't go as we'd hoped, the lessons were loud and clear. It doesn't matter much if I can win the critical situation in my job if the rest of my team routinely screws up. And let's not be overly cocky here, it also wouldn't matter if my co workers are locked in mentally, but I drop the ball all the time. Coach Tick Tomi's five Keys to Victory weren't just personal. It wasn't just about what Bobby Wade.
- [07:52]
Toby Brooks
Or Jason Johnson or Michael Jolivet or.
- [07:55]
Unnamed Speaker
Any other player did alone. The keys were collective. From the head coach to the part time McHale center maintenance staff, even the lowly graduate assistant athletic trainer, they showed how we Capital W, Capital E performed and the idea that team successes not only could but should be celebrated in a way that all the world could see. What we, Capital W, Capital E did the week before as a team was for me as an aspiring future leader, truly as inspiring. If you've been with me the past couple of months, I've been reflecting on the life, the lessons and the legacy of Coach Dick Tomi and I've come to realize he taught us all about life. Football just happened to be the context. We lost Coach Dick Tommy to cancer in 2019, but if anything, I've seen his fingerprints not only in the lives of his coaches and players, but but even in my own life more since then. And the more I grow in my own leadership, the more I find myself asking how'd he do it? How could he motivate people who all wanted as many paw prints as they could squeeze on that helmet to set that desire aside and instead strive for ones that they could share with their brothers? What made him the kind of leader that people would revere, remember and respect long after Dick Thomey had coached his final game? Because in a profession driven by wins and stats and headlines, Coach Tomi was different. He built something that lasted far longer than football. That's culture. But even more than that, he built people. Those questions about his leadership, his legacy, and how he made people feel seen and known and loved, they have not let me go. So I've been asking and listening, tracking down the players, the coaches, the colleagues, the family who knew him best. From UCLA to Hawaii to Tucson to San Jose, to retirement walks on golf courses, Coach Tomi never really stopped coaching. And he sure as heck never stopped caring. So who was the man behind all that? The one who turned helmets into teaching tools and paw prints into moral compass points? The coach who could look at a group of hungry 18 to 22 year olds, each with dreams of personal glory and somehow convince them that the real prize was what they could build together. To understand that kind of influence, how it worked, where it came from, you have to go beyond the wins and the games and the chalk talk. You have to hear from people who knew him best, the ones who watched him lead, not just from the sidelines, but through life. Today we continue that journey with someone who knew him in a way unlike any other guests we've had so far. Nancy Kincaid is a celebrated novelist, a strong presence in her own right, and also Coach Dick Tomi's widow. She was there for the triumphs, the hard seasons, and the quiet moments in between. But she shares isn't just insight into the coach we thought we knew, but into the man behind the whistle, one who built a legacy not just of football, but of love, of loyalty, and of life well lived. You're tuned in to Becoming Undone. And this, this is the penultimate, the one before The End, Part 14 with Nancy Kincaid discussing the life, the lessons and the legacy of coach Dick Tomey, a Toby Brooks passion project.
- [11:53]
Toby Brooks
Hey, friends, greetings and welcome back. Becoming Undone is a podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me, Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week where we can examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. In the past several weeks, we've been doing a deep dive on the life, the lessons and the legacy of the late coach Dick Tommy. And I've got a treat for you today. Today's guest is someone whose life has been deeply shaped by both the power of words and the power of love.
- [12:21]
Unnamed Speaker
Nancy Kincaid is an acclaimed author known.
- [12:23]
Toby Brooks
For her emotionally resonant storytelling, authentic voice. She knows a little bit about being a coach's wife, for sure. She's also the widow of the late, legendary coach Dick Tomi. Nancy, thank you so much for joining me today.
- [12:37]
Nancy Kincaid
My pleasure.
- [12:38]
Toby Brooks
This is tremendous. I. I was a graduate assistant in 98, and I remember being in the locker room, and coach Tomy is, you know, he's.
- [12:47]
Unnamed Speaker
He's kind of an everyman, like shorts.
- [12:49]
Toby Brooks
And flip flops and everything else. And I can remember this glamorous woman walking in our locker room after games.
- [12:56]
Unnamed Speaker
And I said, who's that lady?
- [12:57]
Toby Brooks
And they're like, that's coach Tomi's wife. And so I've got to know the story.
- [13:01]
Unnamed Speaker
You're known for being a voice for.
- [13:03]
Toby Brooks
Coaches wives the world over. Your book balls, that was published in 98, talks all about it. Prophetic in some ways.
- [13:10]
Unnamed Speaker
Take. Take us back.
- [13:11]
Toby Brooks
Talk us through how you and coach.
- [13:12]
Unnamed Speaker
Tomi met and what drew you to one another initially.
- [13:16]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, this is what's interesting. We never met. He was actually coaching at Hawaii when my first husband, Al Kincaid, was coaching at Wyoming. And we used to go to the wac meetings, and he stood out to me at the wac meetings because all the coaches had on their school paraphernalia. I used to tease them that they only forgot to wear their whistles because it looked like everybody was dressed in case there was a sudden kickoff. Right. But not dick tell me. Dick tellme would be wearing his aloha shirt and flip flops. I didn't even know if he was a coach. Right? And he just stood out that way. And he and Al Kincaid were great friends. So they would chat and talk. I knew that they enjoyed each other. They played a lot of golf together. I honestly was never introduced to him, nor did I introduce myself, nor did he introduce himself. So years went by. I wouldn't say I knew him. And then I was on a fellowship in Boston, and one day he called me up and he said, is this Nancy? I said, yes. You know, it was the olden days when your messages played out loud. And I had gotten an earlier message that said, hi, this is Dick. Tell me. I'll call you back. And I thought, oh, my goodness. What. What has happened? Because I just associated with football. I didn't know what he about, I just written balls. I thought, he wants to talk me out of this book some way. Another I didn't know. But anyway, my daughter heard his message and she said, mom, why is the football coach calling you? I said, it's a friend of your dad's. Whatever. Anyway, we talked on the phone a little bit, and he was coming to Boston and he wanted to. He said he was going to be stuck there for three days because he couldn't get a flight out. And I actually believed that at the time. And then he'd call back and say, can I recommend a hotel? Can I recommend a restaurant?
- [15:12]
Unnamed Speaker
Did you catch that? Coach Tomi happens to be in town at the same time as this wonderful, accomplished author, Nancy Kincaid, someone he'd only seen from afar at Western Athletic Conference meetings where she attended with her husband, then Wyoming head coach Al Kincaid. Nancy and al divorced in 1992. Coach Tommy and Nancy had never met or even been formally introduced, but Coach managed to be stranded for three days in Boston at the same time as Nancy and, quote, couldn't get out of town, end quote. At least that's what he told her. In retrospect, that was either the luckiest happening in the history of air travel for Coach or, as I think Nancy can slyly see today, a little bit of an exaggeration. Through 13 episodes, we heard all about what an incredible recruiter Coach Tommy was on the gridiron, as Nancy would later discover. Turns out he was pretty solid away from it, too.
- [16:15]
Nancy Kincaid
Anyway, he came to town and Ally said, mom, why are you going to dinner with a coach? I said, because he wants something. I don't know what it is because he doesn't know me right? And so he said, well, you know, no more coaches. She loves her dad totally. But. So we went to the Hasty Pudding, and when we got there, I learned so much about him. We ate in a fancy restaurant, so to speak. He doesn't really like fancy. And I had suggested this restaurant. It was a little too fancy for him. The waiters were circling the table and pouring water and, you know, being of service. And he finally. He didn't blow his whistle, but he finally motioned them to all come to the table. They gathered around the table, and he said. He put the menu. He said, as long as this menu is standing upright on this table, don't come over here. We're trying to get acquainted, and we don't need all this interruption, and we don't need water. We got everything we need. When I put this down, come back. And I thought, look at this man. He's calling plays in a restaurant, having a little huggy and. Anyway. And that was the start of getting to know him.
- [17:34]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, well, it was a recruiting trip. I can tell. I know his players will love to hear this side of him. Dick Tomi has got some game.
- [17:47]
Nancy Kincaid
I'd never met anybody like him. And we, we talked that first night, and he didn't talk about football. And I, I thought. I really thought coaches mainly had football as their primary conversation with a little golf on the side. And so I was already prepared to ask him about his golf game, about his team, but that's not what he talked about.
- [18:08]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, that's tremendous. Thank you so much for sharing that story.
- [18:12]
Nancy Kincaid
He.
- [18:12]
Toby Brooks
He was known for his fierce loyalty and his character in football. What was he like at home and what did his leadership look like around the house?
- [18:21]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, he was a thinker. And early on, when I got to know him, we were kind of disagreeing about something, probably how we were going to have a relationship. When he lived in Arizona, which I didn't really know he lived there, I thought he was in Hawaii. So all of that had happened in his life. And I was living in Charlotte, North Carolina, whatever. And I'm trying to talk about all the reasons that this can't work, of course. And he's. And he said to me, nance, don't you know the great thing about me? And I already knew there were many great things about him. This is just in a matter of weeks. But I said, what is the great thing about you? He said, nance, I can learn. I'm a learner. And I thought that was the most romantic thing I had ever heard anybody say, because. And I remember saying, oh, my gosh, that's what I want to be. I want to be a learner. I want to be somebody that can learn.
- [19:25]
Unnamed Speaker
Coach Tommy wasn't satisfied with giving up on a relationship that he saw promise in just because it might be hard. Nancy had already experienced life as the wife of a D1 coach before, and that was when she and her former husband, Al Kincaid, had lived in the same house. Now Coach Tomi was pursuing her with thoughts of, at least initially, a long distance relationship that spanned from Tucson to Charlotte. But just like Coach always said, the tougher it gets, the better he played, just like we've heard him do time and time again with former coaches, players and staffers, shared his heart, and he was willing to be vulnerable. Quote, I'm a learner, end quote, was one of the most romantic things Nancy had Ever heard it signaled that coach, tell me, wasn't just trying to intrude or barge into her life full of demands and expectations. He genuinely wanted to find a way to make it work. And he did.
- [20:22]
Nancy Kincaid
And, you know, it just. It's not what you expect the stereotypical coach to say in moments like this, but I knew it was true.
- [20:31]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, absolutely. He, he was quite possibly the most tender hearted but tough coach. I, I mean, it just doesn't make.
- [20:40]
Unnamed Speaker
Sense if you were to look at.
- [20:41]
Toby Brooks
Like the stats of, of his personality on a sheet to be that fierce and that, that tough on people and expect the most out of him. But he loved people with his whole heart. And so that totally aligns with what I've heard time and time again from former coaches, from athletes, and everyone in between.
- [20:59]
Nancy Kincaid
It's true.
- [21:00]
Toby Brooks
So I want to talk through that 2000 season. That was tough. And you saw coach from that 98 season, the highest of highs. And then two years later to go through what he went through. And that was hard on everyone. But I could tell even from my vantage point that it weighed on him not just because he wasn't winning, but because these people that he loved like family were gonna have to look for new jobs. And it was, it was a weight around him as that season wore on. Talk me through that 2000 season and what it was like as he navigated what I have to assume were the hardest days and weeks and months professionally during your relationship with him.
- [21:47]
Nancy Kincaid
You know. You know, sometimes I think getting fired is why people have wives. You know, I could emote for him and I felt free to express my anger to him, my frustration, my hurt, because he didn't. Now I will say, Dick, Tommy was a crier. And, you know, I've. All my life, I evaluated movies based on whether or not he cried. Then the movie was no good. He was an. And he was never embarrassed or ashamed to just cry. So the night that was the last night, there were just tears shed everywhere, you know, so it's not that he was unfeeling or he's not the tough guy that's going to be strong and silent, but he didn't lapse into anger. The players were coming to the house, they were hugging and crying and so much just heartfelt sadness about parting ways and what was going to come next. But over the years, I see so many times, I've seen a million coaches get fired. Both of my husbands got fired from time to time, and they handled it differently. And so I think if you have any motive, wife or daughter or son or somebody who can help you just dispel some of the frustration that you feel that you don't feel like it's appropriate for you to speak about. He's not complaining. He's not going to whine. Happens to all the coaches. And Dick Tomey always said that one of the greatest things about his life was that he was never a golden boy. Yeah, he did. Everything came hard.
- [23:41]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [23:42]
Toby Brooks
And that's so inspirational. I've worked with coaches who are very CEO like, and they treat it like an enterprise, and that was never Coach Tomi. I would equate it more to a country church pastor that just loved everybody as hard as he could, and he was going, you know, if he needed to stop everything he was doing and go help you, he would like. Just what I've heard from players, coaches, staff members the world over, literally, is he never put on airs, and he never lost sight of those humble beginnings. So that's powerful to hear from all your years that you shared together. Is there a particular moment, maybe quiet, maybe profound, that you feel like best captured the Dick Tomi you knew at his core?
- [24:30]
Nancy Kincaid
Wow. What a question. Because there were so many of those. I think part of his magic was to be very demanding of players, to try to pick a good player and make him a great player, to show a player he had more talent than he thought, more ability than he thought, those kinds of things. But along with that was his ease with forgiving. He forgave. He didn't hold grudges. He didn't get even. He didn't punish somebody because they said or did something he didn't like. He just forgave and moved on. And he didn't struggle to do it. Like, I can forgive, too, but it takes me, but, you know, I have to work my way there. And. And it's not always easy, but. But I watched him, and I thought, okay, he's skipping a whole part of forgiveness. He's just getting right through it, moving on. And he that way with players. There was no player who ever said or did or anything that Dick Tony could not forgive, you know, so players knew that. They tried to please him. I feel like, for the most part, they really did please him.
- [25:48]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, for sure. Such an inspiration there. And for leaders, whether you're a football coach or a CEO or a manager, wherever, there's some leadership lessons in there. Absolutely. I'm curious to know. You're a strong, professional woman. Did Dick, tell me, ever try to coach you at home? And if so, what was A piece of his personal coaching advice that maybe still echoes in your mind today.
- [26:15]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, I made the mistake of taking golf in college, and I went to Virginia tech, which had 11 men to every woman back in the day, and my golf class, I was the only woman in the whole class because that happened frequently back then in those days. And I wasn't. I was. Okay. Was I a great golfer? No. But I might have been able to enjoy it in some other atmosphere, you know. But Dick and I tried a few times to play golf together. We'd go out to Oro Valley and sneak on a course out there. He was not a member of it in the evening or do something like that. And he wanted to coach me in the worst way. But I'm not coachable. I want to be coached. Right. I don't want to be improved. I mean, I like to improve myself, but I don't see his job as improving me. But yeah, you know, although sometimes I thought my job was to improve, it's because I have a lot of estrogen. What are you going to say? Leap.
- [27:15]
Toby Brooks
That's fabulous. My wife listens to these, and she will definitely relate to. To that as well. No matter how hard I try or no matter how long I try, she will resist my coaching, if for no other reason than principal at this point. Right.
- [27:32]
Nancy Kincaid
Well, we.
- [27:32]
Toby Brooks
We often hear about Coach Tony's impact on players lives beyond football.
- [27:37]
Unnamed Speaker
What do you think he hoped to.
- [27:39]
Toby Brooks
Teach them about life or manhood or character? I've heard players talk about how coach would organize things, where you would actually meet with their girlfriends or wives. Talk to me a little bit about that part of his legacy.
- [27:54]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, one thing he did, and I appreciate it so much, that's such a fond memory, is he once asked me to speak to the team. I think he allotted me maybe 30 minutes, maybe 45 minutes to speak to the team about men and women as I understood it. And so I did. And not only did I learn so much, but the meeting went on for almost two hours because the players had a lot to say. And I tried to talk about, you know, how men are quiet and whole things. And one player, and I don't think, well, I won't use his name because he might not want me to. One player stood up and he talked about. He confided in his girlfriend something that was on his mind and bothering him. And she then discussed it with her mother, with his mother, with this person and that person. And when he would come home, you know, after practice in the afternoon, she'd Want an update? Did this. You know, she was so fixed on fixing that that it made him mistrust her. He said, because in the locker room, he's next to a guy and he tells him the same thing, and it's never mentioned again. The guy never asked him, how's it, how it's going, what's happening? He just dropped it and it's gone. And the way he was comfortable. So we talked about how it is a man's world, and men can validate themselves if they choose to. In the world of women, reality is collaborative. We don't share the automatic permission that men, you know, usually have, already have. So women do confide in each other. We don't connect without revealing and confiding. So when we have a male partner, we continue in that mode. And they.
- [29:54]
Toby Brooks
Such valuable insight. Yeah, these are. These are college football players, but they're getting life lessons. They're not just there for the X's and O's. So kudos to you and thank you. I mean, those. Those lessons continue to resonate through generations. I've talked to multiple former athletes who talk about how his lessons have informed their fatherhood and how they've informed their being husbands to their wives. And so that's in no small part in honor of you, for you taking a role that, let's face it, you didn't necessarily sign up for that when he was slyly inviting you to dinner in North China. Well, you know better than most. Life with a coach is full of moves. It's full of wins, it's losses, it's ups, it's downs, it's incredibly long hours. How did you two navigate that constant change, that uncertainty that came with that lifestyle after he left Arizona? There were a lot of different things before you kind of settled in at San Jose. Talk me through that season of life and how you navigated that constant change and uncertainty.
- [31:02]
Nancy Kincaid
Well, between Dick and me, we had four children, but they were practically adult children. So I think that did make it a little easier for us from time to time. One might live in the cabana in Tucson behind the house, something. And we were in touch with all of them, but it wasn't like we were raising a family together. So I think that made it much easier. Right. To be honest, than it would be for someone who's got children in schools to change and so many things to deal with. That experience was fascinating. We went back to Hawaii, so we had just bought a condo there, not knowing we were going to be living in it, but. But we did and from that point, we just, year to year, we just made up a new year. And, you know, he went to the 49ers with Terry Donahue for a year. He went to Texas as assistant head coach with Matt Brown for a year. And those were fabulous, fun experiences. And I think, I think he contributed a lot in both cases. I think he learned a lot in both cases. And then eventually when the San Jose State job came up, which is a really hard job job, I mean, really hard right now, I think the hardest job in the country is Hawaii. But when we took the San Jose State job, we didn't even get all the information about what we were going into. We didn't get it till we were already there anyway. It was a lot. It was a lot. But he loved it so much. He loved the San Jose State players. He doesn't mind things being hard or he doesn't expect things not to be hard, though. I mean, we've had a lot of ups and downs there, but I think, I think he loved the challenge of it. And, you know, some players left when he came because he wasn't their guy.
- [33:04]
Unnamed Speaker
Such a powerful observation right here, but one worth digging in on. Nancy says, quote, coach doesn't expect things not to be hard, end quote. And you can for sure see that in his career choices over the years, can't you? First he takes over a Hawaii program that's underfunded, struggling to find footing in any athletic conference, not to mention a campus several time zones away compared to other schools. Then he finds success and he jumps to an Arizona program that was at best fairly average, run of the mill in the PAC 10 and dare I say, a Wildcat fan base that was fairly indifferent to football in Tucson at the time. Then he ends up at a San Jose State program, although competing in D1 in the WAC that was funded at a level more in line with second tier FCS schools. It was dire for the Spartans when Coach and Nancy came to town. I found a 2004 LA Times article that described a growing effort by San Jose State faculty at the time to scrap the program altogether. Citing just one winning season since 1993 and despite that paltry budget, a fraction of what other schools spent, it was thought that that money could be used better for academic purposes on campus. Coach Tomey knew the challenges in all three cases, but he didn't run from them. If anything, he ran toward them. As Nancy and so many guests before her have pointed out, he relished the challenge. It's a lesson, I think we could all benefit from. There's also an idea here that I don't want you to miss. If you're an aspiring leader taking over a team or a program or a business that's already established despite being a known quantity, a renowned team builder, a culture cultivator, a leader of men in every case. When Coach Tell me showed up, there were people who left. This is powerful insight for me. We aren't for all people. Neither was Coach. As Nancy so eloquently points out, quote, he wasn't their guy, end quote. When people leave or select out, when I'm in charge, my natural tendency is to be hard on myself for not leading them well enough. If I'd have done a better job, maybe they'd have stuck around, I would tend to think. And there may be some truth to that, but it might be a little bit more complicated. There's a Kobe Bryant quote that I love and I think applies here, a quote that appears in a 2022 Players Tribune article attributed to Kobe. It reads, quote, I can't relate to lazy people. We don't speak the same language. I don't understand you. I don't want to understand you, end quote. And while that's certainly one way to approach excellence, I think it's safe to say Coach Tomy's methods were a bit less divisive. He famously gave second and third chances to players who underperformed, but he didn't hold grudges. At the same time, he did uphold a standard of excellence. And at times, that drove some people away. But for me, just the idea that a leader as incredible as Dick Thomey might have to endure a few people who weren't willing to buy into his brand of culture is, in a word, liberating. I'm not trying to drive great teammates away, but if they aren't willing to buy into the culture we're building, then maybe, as Nancy says, I'm just not their guy.
- [36:30]
Nancy Kincaid
I mean, it was just. It was a full gamut of both the positive and the negative. But I was. I think it had a. Has a powerful. Had a powerful place in his heart.
- [36:41]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [36:42]
Toby Brooks
And I look at the three schools where he had the longest tenure as head coach. Hawaii, Arizona, San Jose, all have this. This kind of. And this is in no disrespect. I mean, I love Arizona, but Arizona didn't have the budget of a usc. San Jose State didn't have the budget of an Arizona. And these are programs that if. If they're winning over programs with deeper pockets, with a more entrenched and, and richer donor base. That's Dick Tomy. Like he wants to beat you with less and, and he wants to, to take a workmanlike approach and whip you. And, and so, but the tragedy of that, to me, and this just, this happened this week. The, the College Football hall of Fame lowered the threshold by 500ths of a point to allow Mike Leach in.
- [37:37]
Nancy Kincaid
Right.
- [37:37]
Toby Brooks
We've talked about this. Like, if Dick Tomey can take San Jose State from the brink of wiping.
- [37:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Out football to a bowl game in.
- [37:47]
Toby Brooks
Three years, how is that not worthy of hall of Fame enshrinement? Right. And, and what he was able to do with next to nothing needs to be celebrated.
- [37:59]
Nancy Kincaid
It needs to be celebrated because what I wish the honor was doing the impossible. The coaches who have the hard jobs turns out to be the coaches with the best jobs get rewarded for getting the best jobs for getting hired is what they're getting rewarded for. And some of them are great coaches, no question, and do great job. But that's not where all the great coaches are. Great coaches go into impossible places and make them possible.
- [38:35]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [38:36]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, they take no five star kids and turn some kids into five stars. That's a great coach.
- [38:43]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Nancy Kincaid
And that's what he was. And he loved being an underdog. He loved being an underdog, absolutely.
- [38:49]
Toby Brooks
I love the fact that Hawaii and San Jose State have, have formed a Dick Tomi game. I love the fact that his golf tournament carries on. Talk me through some of the things that continue in coach's legacy that he was instrumental in helping to start.
- [39:07]
Nancy Kincaid
Well, I think I might, maybe I shouldn't speak on this because I'm not certain, but I think we open. Arizona opens this year with Hawaii and I think they may start a similar thing. I don't know that they'll play each other every year, but when they do, where we'll have a trophy exchange a Dick Tony trophy here too. You know, I think I still to this day, to this day get letters and messages appreciating him and just telling me something that he said to them that made a huge difference. And one thing that he said was to me too, and I thought he was crazy when he said it was early on and we were talking about happiness or unhappiness or something. And he said, nance, he said, happiness is not something that happens to you if you're lucky. He said, all happiness is, is a decision you make to be happy.
- [40:04]
Toby Brooks
Preach that.
- [40:05]
Unnamed Speaker
That's all.
- [40:06]
Toby Brooks
Yeah, I'm sure that's that Tony Robbins coming out of him, right?
- [40:10]
Nancy Kincaid
It is. It's a Tony Robbins moment. He had so many moments like that. The other thing that he said to me, and I didn't like this one either at the time, he said, nance, don't you get it? The plan is never the plan. And I want the plan to be the plan. He made the plan. Let's stick to the plan. He never stuck to a plan. He changed every plan, even if it's a team going somewhere, change the time to change the meeting. And at San Jose State, the players used to laugh because he said, okay, guys, all right, now Tuesday is going to be our Thursday, Thursday is going to be our money who change things. The goal is always the goal, but the plan can always change to improve itself.
- [40:56]
Toby Brooks
And if you think about it, that's what a leader that loves does. Because to mindlessly just plot ahead with a plan because it looks good on paper doesn't always serve people the best. And so being flexible like that, I think is a hallmark of a leader that loves and cares. So that definitely fits. Well, it's been a little over five years since we lost him, and in some ways it seems like hardly a moment's passed. And in other ways, you know, so much in the world has changed since 2020. Talk me through the years after and what him being a part of your life has meant for you, moving on after he's passed.
- [41:40]
Nancy Kincaid
Well, there are some people who might think I haven't moved on, but for one thing, I wake up and I think, Nancy, you are in Tucson, Arizona. What are you doing? Because I mean, I come from the south, not that I'm particularly southern at this point. What am I doing in Tucson, Arizona? But it's not unheard of that I'm here. I think of this as his place because Hawaii was his place and we would have lived there forever had not our children and grandchildren all been on the mainland. So we didn't want to miss their growing up and just the family, right? So we decided to leave Hawaii and move to the mainland. And this is where he chose to come because he loves Tucson too, in Arizona. And we came back here having no idea what a short time we had. And then, you know, my, we have our daughter and son in law and their children who moved here. We have Rich and Rochelle's homie right down the road in Scottsdale. And then we have Dick's daughter in California and my other daughter in Charlotte, North Carolina. Her husband is a coach at the Panthers. So this just, I've just made this home I've made this home. Now, that doesn't mean I have learned to live with no humidity. Not. And I'm never. But here I am.
- [43:17]
Toby Brooks
So you've got that southern skin. You have to apply lotion regularly and hydrate and all those things. It's a dry heat, but 120 is still heat.
- [43:27]
Nancy Kincaid
It's an experience.
- [43:29]
Toby Brooks
Absolutely. Well, one thing I, I love about coach Tommy is he never took himself too seriously and he was known for some, Some funny moments. I know it's probably going to be impossible for you to pick out the best, but give us just a sliver a taste. What's a hilarious Dick Thomy behind the scenes moment that you could share with the listeners?
- [43:52]
Nancy Kincaid
Oh, my gosh. Hilarious. I don't know. I do know that unlike me, Dick read all his negative press. He listened to all the criticism of him. He knew what was being said about him in the public arena. I always thought that was unhealthy and he shouldn't do it, but. But he did it. And I think sometimes he would laugh out loud at something being said about him because it was so off the mark. Sometimes he would call up a sports writer and say, what. What the heck is this? You know, we threw this. How did you preclude what you. But if they bashed a player, he'd call him in a flash and say, this is every. That's off limits. Anything that went wrong, you put it on me, don't put it on them. And, you know, he did those sorts of things, but sometimes he just, he understood his own caricature and it could amuse him.
- [44:49]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [44:50]
Nancy Kincaid
You know, he was a guy that liked to go to the movies and he would go and it could be somewhere during spring practice. It could be somewhere where most coaches don't leave the house because it wouldn't be a good idea. You know, he liked to go out to eat and enjoy life as a regular guy.
- [45:10]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [45:12]
Toby Brooks
Well, I appreciate that insight. Your episode is going to be one of the last in this series we will continue on. The name of the show is Becoming Undone. And it's about how our unraveling can oftentimes be not something we chose. I mean, I, I don't think it's any overstatement and say none of us wanted to lose Dick Tomy in our lives or in this world, even if he wasn't directly impacting us. But the fact of the matter is we owe it to his legacy to build upon it. So the idea behind Becoming Undone is we take that unraveling and we're able to stitch together something even more powerful. So knowing that you've been through this, what words or encouragement could you offer a listener who's maybe grieving, unraveling, trying to rebuild after a loss like you've encountered?
- [46:01]
Nancy Kincaid
You have to reinvent yourself a little bit. And that's a good thing. That's a good thing. I think I just came back from pebble beach to the Coaches Classic golf tournament that Dick Tomi and Paul Spangler began. Now this next one will be 35 years ago.
- [46:22]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [46:23]
Nancy Kincaid
And we had a hundred. We had 30 teams of four wives all included. So it was a really big crowd. And although he's been gone for quite a while, he's there. I feel him. Every time I go to pebble beach. People talk about it. His presence is felt. And even people who weren't lucky enough to know him, who are new coaches, younger coaches who are coming to pebble beach, maybe for the first time, I think they feel that something extraordinary is represented there. And I went to Waimanalo when tmac, you know, the great player here, when TMAC was drafted by the Carolina Panthers, where my son in law coaches the way. I'm pretty excited about that. A group of us from Arizona flew to Hawaii and we went to a huge celebration party that T. Mac and his mother and father and family put on to thank the community of Waimanalo. If anybody wonders why he's. His nickname is Nala. People make up all the things it means. It's because he loves Waimanalo and considers that his home. But they had 1200 guests there. 1200. They had five bands. They had the people in the community, made the most fabulous food. And I walked. Everybody's Polynesian except almost everybody, except maybe this little posse from Arizona. And I walked into this gathering, I was so emotional. I really thought I would cry because he was doing there. That is what he. He would have been the happiest guy in a setting like that. He. He believes that he learned so much from the Polynesian cultures.
- [48:19]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [48:20]
Toby Brooks
So powerful. I'm at a loss for words. But. But you're absolutely right. That culture aligned so well with who he was. And I've often made this statement that he's just this little white guy from middle America, but he's so aligned with that ohana. And then took that to Tucson and then took that to San Jose and, and. And not only took it, spread it. Every freaking where he went.
- [48:49]
Nancy Kincaid
Here's the thing, Toby. If you ask Dick Tomi where he's from, he Never said Indiana. He always said Hawaii. Like, he's like a Hawaiian kid that grew up in Hawaii. But. No, but he became himself in Hawaii.
- [49:05]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [49:06]
Nancy Kincaid
And he just kept that aloha about him.
- [49:09]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [49:10]
Toby Brooks
Well, thank you so much again. Nancy Kincaid, accomplished author, wife to the late Dick Tomi. I can't thank you enough for joining me today. It's been a real treat. I know you've been on the road, you're overcoming illness, you're a gamer yourself. Coach will be proud of you for pulling it together and joining me this evening.
- [49:31]
Nancy Kincaid
Well, I appreciate you asking me and I appreciate you just putting this together. All the interviews have been really. I've enjoyed every one. I'm Nancy Kincaid, and I am undone.
- [49:47]
Unnamed Speaker
What a treat. In this unforgettable conversation with Nancy Kincaid, we get a rare look beyond the locker room and into the heart of a man whose legacy goes far beyond the game of football. Coach Dick Tilney wasn't just a play caller. He was a life shaper. His brand of leadership was fierce but forgiving, demanding, yet deeply compassionate. Through Nancy's stories and enduring love, I am reminded of the theme we've heard over and over in this series, that greatness isn't measured in wins and losses, but in the lives we impact and the values we carry forward as we continue to wrestle with what it means to become undone and how we rise from it. I think Coach Tomi's example calls all of us to lead with humility, to love with boldness, and to believe that even the toughest losses can give birth to the most meaningful legacies. If you find yourself in the middle of your own unraveling, maybe you needed this reminder. Reinvention is possible. Forgiveness is powerful. And joy, even after heartbreak, is not only possible, it's a decision. If that resonates with you, if you're trying to lead in a way that lasts, friend, I'd love to be part of your journey. Whether you're a coach or an educator, building culture from the ground up, a business leader trying to align your team with purpose, or someone in transition wondering what's next, how to rebuild. I offer keynotes, workshops, one on one, coaching, even just conversation via dm, text, phone call, whatever. But it's built around the very principles that Coach told me lived every day and that I've developed over decades of working with high achievers, including now 127 episodes of this podcast alone. People first, leadership, clarity of purpose, and a relentless pursuit of growth. I'm thrilled to say that I'm now a Maxwell Leadership Certified Coach, and I'd love to be part of your journey. If you're Interested, go to tobyjbrooks.com Click that Contact tab and let me know how I can help. If you'd like more info on today's show, head on over to UndonePodcast.com EP127 for show notes, photos and bonus content from today's guest, Nancy Kincaid. Before we wrap, a quick bit of news. The show just keeps growing and this week we peaked at number seven globally for self improvement on Apple Podcasts. So thank you. That's just two spots behind former First Lady Michelle Obama, so be sure to tell a friend Share an episode Dig.
- [52:08]
Toby Brooks
Back through the whole catalog of episodes.
- [52:10]
Unnamed Speaker
To hear more about high achievers who didn't let failure or setbacks stand in their way to eventual victory. Next time, I'll be Coming Undone. The plan is to wrap up this incredible adventure by circling back with Rich Tell Me Coach's Son. We're going to summarize what we've learned the show has triggered in our own lives and what we can do with this refreshed knowledge of one of the absolute best leaders I've ever seen in the flesh. This and more coming up on the life lessons and legacy of Coach Dick Toney and Toby Brooks Passion Project.
- [52:58]
Toby Brooks
After that, I may take a week or so off. I haven't decided yet, but I've got.
- [53:02]
Unnamed Speaker
Some other incredible high achievers lined up.
- [53:04]
Toby Brooks
We're going to get back to the.
- [53:05]
Unnamed Speaker
Original formula with our one off episodes of High Achievers, including the phenomenal story of John Ul, who suffered a devastating car crash leaving him with a 3% chance of survival. He endured 45 surgeries and today he runs, runs, marathons and Spartan races and he inspires around the world as a motivational speaker. After that, Jacqueline Emory, Athletic trainer, recovering basketball player, she's going to share a little bit about the mental side of recovery, both for herself and for the athletes she works with. So stay tuned. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at becomingundone pod and follow me at tobyjbrooks. Check out my link tree at linktr.ee. tobyjbrooks. Subscribe and leave a review on Apple.
- [53:53]
Toby Brooks
Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:58]
Unnamed Speaker
This is Toby Brooks reminding you that you don't have to lead alone, you don't have to rebuild alone. And you were never meant to become undone alone so stick around till next time Keep showing up, keep rebuilding Keep and keep daring to fall into place Most of all keep on becoming undone.