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- [00:00]
John Flansburgh
1, 2, 1, 2.
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Andy
Beginning
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John Flansburgh
o
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Andy
beginning. Hello everyone and welcome to Beginnings, the show that asks where do creative people come from? My name is Andy. I'm the host of the show and a writer and performer based in Los Angeles, California. How are you all doing this week? I'm recording this obviously, as always at about midnight the night before this drop. So obviously my wife is asleep, obviously the dog is asleep, so I'm trying to be quiet. I'll try to keep this quick because today's episode was incredible. Love today's guest. But just quickly, Tuesday was, was the day when the President of the United States threatened to end a civilization and, and it's maybe the closest in my lifetime that I have thought that that was the end of it was going to be the end of everything. Obviously some flicker in some decayed neuron in the MC Escher designed Overlook hotel of his brain him back from complete global annihilation. So yay for everyone. I guess that's a. It's a win for the human race and there's a silver lining to that, and I'm not saying there is at all, but if you want to find a facet that is possibly worth holding on to, it's that in the the wake of that nothing is, nothing is as bothersome as it once was. Naomi and I went to a premiere party for the new season of a Friends TV yesterday and usually those kinds of things fill us with a lot of social anxiety and just feeling kind of like out of sorts. None of that. None of it. Not. It's not an ounce, not a milliliter. So hey, if you have social anxiety and you're trying to do something about it, maybe it's not a pharmaceutical thing. Maybe you just have to walk to the brink of global nuclear annihilation and then take one step back. Maybe that's. Maybe that's the secret of life. The other secret of life. Listening to today's episode because like I said, this is fantastic. Today I am talking to John Flansburg of they Might Be Giants. I don't really think I need to read his bio, but I wrote it. So if perhaps you are unfamiliar with John, this should tell you all you need to know in preface of our talk. Originally from Lexington, Massachusetts, musician John Flansburg met John Linnell in High and they formed they Might Be Giants Years later in 1982, after both moving to New York. Trying to do justice to the breadth and depth of they Might Be Giants CV in a short bio is unfeasible, but a few Highlights of their 44 year career are their 24 albums, including five children's albums, their numerous Tony and Grammy nominations, and two Grammy wins, Dial a Song and a million other things. On his own, John has released albums as Monopuff, directed music videos for bands like Frank Black and Ben Folds Five, and even appeared as a voice on Xavier Renegade angel, one of my favorite Adult Swim shows. Of course, back in the early days of the show we talked to John Lee. So if you're also a fan, check that out. Okay, back to the bio. They Might Be Giant's latest album, the World Is Too Dig, will be released next week on Idlewild Recordings. And folks, it is an absolute delight. This is very thrilling. I talked to John Linnell a few years ago and I've always meant to talk to John Other John John Flans. And with the new album coming, I thought this was a great time. And folks, love to report it. John Flansburg, great person, really wonderful to talk to. I mentioned towards the end of the interview that I've been listening to they Might Be Giants since I was a kid. I was thinking about, I was like, oh my God, I think Particle Man. Maybe I'm wrong, correct me if I am, but I think Particle man was on tiny tunes when I was a kid. Maybe that might be my first introduction to them as a band before I started buying their albums. But they're defining for me they Might Be Giants. It will not surprise you to hear the next one. Weird Al, the Monkeys, the Beetle, specifically the L Submarine album, and DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince. I think that rounds out the formative bands for me. So like I said, thrilling to talk to John. And even though he, he mentions in this, you know, he's never done therapy, he was still very willing to go on the journey with me and we get into some very interesting stuff about his childhood, what he was aiming to do, if anything, the early days of they Might Be Giants and a ton of other stuff. I hope you really enjoy this. It was a joy to talk to John, but before we get there, I just want to very quickly let you know about some episodes that are coming up. I just talked to Josh Margolan, who was the writer and director of one of my favorite films of 2024, Thelma. That was awesome. Talked to Felicia Douglas from Dirty Projectors and a ton of other bands. Doug Gillard from Guided By Voices. That was great. Stay tuned for all of those. But for now, let's talk to John. Okay, this is interesting because something I
- [06:10]
John Flansburgh
don't want to talk about the band now.
- [06:13]
Andy
Something I have been thinking about a lot for, I don't know, decades, and I talk about it sometimes on the show is the idea of legacy. And maybe I need to start thinking about expanding the idea. Not just about legacy, but legacy versus influence. Or what does someone want? When I, I think about, like, what I want as a creative person, as a writer, what do I want to leave in the world, or as a podcaster, like, listeners, like, what do I want them to get? Like, after, like, let's, you know, I'm, I'm older and also since I was a child, I thought about death. So I was gonna say, like, now that I'm getting older, but it's like, no, no, that was my entire life.
- [06:59]
John Flansburgh
Well, I mean, you're not talking to the most goal oriented person. I mean, it sounds to me like you have, you have life, you think about your life goals, right?
- [07:10]
Andy
Well, maybe. I mean, now, like, I have to be a little, a little more proactive, you know, in the, the way that television, the television industry is and the way that like, you know, my wife and I. I guess I can say this much. My wife and I are trying to get the rights to a British show to do an American remake. And if I'm not on top of that stuff, no one, you know, I have to kind of like send emails to my reps every once in a while and be like, hey, where is this thing? Or can, what's going on? Or, you know, where are we? And if I don't do that, nothing ever happens, so I have to be a little more. But like, don't, don't you have to think about that kind of stuff in terms of like.
- [07:50]
John Flansburgh
But when you're talking about like, legacy or, or like things like that, to me that's like somebody who's thinking very big picture. Like, my, my. The first half of my life was such a calamity. Like, I just never, I, you know, if anything good happened, it was always like a fantastic surprise. And then the second half of my life, you know, I feel like, you know, I, I kind of knew what, how it was supposed to work, and I kind of like clawed my way in that direction, but I don't feel like I had. You know, when you hear people who are like, really successful, they always have such, like, they all, they, they, they seem almost like, you know, they're just going like, you know, dear diary, you know, someday my dream of writing, selling a million records will come true. Like, I, I've never, I've Never. You know, I, I remember like, I remember like one of the last times I played at CBGB and we probably played there like 24 times or something like 20, like a lot of times we played there many, many times. You know, in some years early on we played there like probably like four times a year. As it. As CBs was sort of coming to an end, I was like, you know, the only thing more surprising to me that I played at CBGB was that I got sick of playing at cbgb. You know, that, that to me seemed very unexpected.
- [09:31]
Andy
Well, okay, See, there's so much here. I wrote down the word calamity. Also. I do think now that, now that you are saying it, I think there's a difference between being goal oriented, between wanting a legacy and thinking about how you influence people creatively or emotionally or however.
- [09:49]
John Flansburgh
Right.
- [09:50]
Andy
You think about that because. Okay, here's the thing. I know so many people in, in entertainment who. It was just a stroke of luck, whatever they may be, whether they're good or not. Yeah. So like to me the idea of like being. And then that's ambition. So ambition even separated from goal oriented kind of things where you're like. Because the goal oriented to me is more of like a. I have an idea for a TV show, I have an idea for an album, I have an idea and I want to, or even just a song if we want to like condense it to, to a smaller unit or whatever like that. And I want to make this manifest in the world. Right. And there's that kind of like creative goal and then there are like these larger kind of things where like you have no control over like how that does what someone does with it, how they feel about it. So the idea of like legacy or like influence seems to me to be kind of nebulous things that, that no matter what you desire in your heart, you don't even have control over that stuff.
- [10:50]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, I mean not having control is, is seems like a pretty universal. I think, you know, creative people, I think, I think creative people, people in general want to have more control than they have. And creative people want to have a lot more control than they have. And you know, I think that's, and people really, you can, you can tell that, that, that you know, when you're listening to somebody, you know, somebody being interviewed and they're and, and like around the edges of it you can tell that they're kind of like still sort of pissed off about something that happened like 25 years ago. You know, like, you know, you know that it's because they. And they expected more control, you know, And I'm not sure that that was, like, you know, that that's ever realistic, I think. I mean, I've got like, a million, like, racing thoughts about this, these topics that we're talking about, because it actually, it really, you know, we. John and I really, you know, we. We didn't have, like, that much professional success compared to a lot of people. Like, we didn't have that shot out of a cannon, like, everybody knows who you are, kind of success. And even when we had, like, modest international success, it was not. We were older. I mean, we were, like, 29 years old. Like, we had really done a lot. We'd been a local band for years. We had been in other bands. We had done lots of things. Lots of people we knew had, like, started and become very successful or started and had some success and given up. Like, we knew, like, we'd already been kind of around the block a bit, you know, so we. We were. We were just kind of still doing it. But it wasn't like, oh, this is like, you know, I mean, there was never a point, you know, where my. My parents weren't like, you know, you could always come do something else, you know, like, always. They were always sort of hoping. I mean, I. I don't. I think I. I think it wasn't until, like, we actually. I actually got a Grammy, that. That, you know, that. That really changed. Yeah.
- [13:16]
Andy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, I want to go back to this, but first, I do want to hit. The word calamity is so strong. I'm curious. What did you mean by that when you said the first half of your life was a calamity?
- [13:29]
John Flansburgh
Well, you know, like, when the office told me that I was, you know, up for, you know, on. For doing this podcast, I was like, oh, my God. Like, you know, you know, I. As a kid. I was just a terrible student as a kid and supermanic. And really, I had no. I had very little focus. I had, you know, very odd, like, very personal obsessions that were not, like, universal. And, you know, it's like, I just. I just was. I just, you know, I felt like a weirdo. Like, I mean, I felt like a really. A really big weirdo.
- [14:14]
Andy
Was that something that was like, did the. Was it justified by the other people? Did they look at you as a weirdo, or is it just something internal?
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John Flansburgh
Oh, I. I think. I think they all knew I was a weirdo.
- [14:26]
Andy
What were the particular obsessions that set you apart and why were you obsessed with them really?
- [14:31]
John Flansburgh
You know, like, you know, I, I, I don't, I don't go to therapy, so it's like, you know, I, I have not, I have not processed a lot of this, so forgive me if I don't really have the words to describe it. You know, basically as a kid, and this is, I, I was, I was. This, this, the first part will come as no surprise. I was really obsessed with pop music. Like, I listened to pop music all the time, like, way more than most people listen to pop music. I was, I just found it absolutely hypnotizing. And I was also very preoccupied with recording, like how the recording process worked. That to me, that was extremely magical. I was also really interested in photography. I was really interested in, you know, sort of the mechanical processes that capture things. I was really obsessed with printmaking and I was really obsessed with typography and like, I mean, really obsessed with typography. Like, I, I knew a lot about print printing and typography as like a child I knew, you know, and you know, when most people are like, figuring out words and reading stories and getting swept away by like, how interesting a story would be, I'd be like looking at the, the, the, you know, the words on the printed page and realizing, oh, this is like a, a patch where they, they had to reprint the output to, to, you know, make some correction in the manuscript. I could, you know, I could see where like the, the, the cut marks were and like, where the weight of the type changed. I was just very tuned into that. And I don't know. I mean, I have no explanation for, I mean, the fact that I became a, I, I, later in life, I became a professional is of what's not a surprise to anyone. You know, I mean, when I was, when I was in my 20s, you know, I worked with other graphic designers, obviously, and you know, back then they would say like, you know, if, if, if you just wanted to, you know, sort of stop a conversation, just start trying to try to explain what a font was to somebody. Because, because, because that was the word that was not in, you know, before the personal computer. You know, that was, that was a very specialized domain. Like, it was, it was very, you know, I think, in fact, I think somebody was saying something effective that like, they would often tell people in the, like the CIA that say that if you tell people you're a graphic designer, it'd be a good, it'd be a good cover. Because no one knows what to say to a graphic designer. No, like, there's no. No one's going to casually slip into shop talk with a graphic designer. At least in the 20th century, now everybody knows what graphic design is, which is interesting, but back then, it was, like, a very narrow thing. But my dad was an architect, so he knew. He knew what graphic design was, and he was actually there. My. He was quite encouraging of my interest in that because he knew it was, like, part of design. Like, it was part of, like, industrial design or anything like that. So it wasn't like. That was. That was kind of more practical.
- [18:02]
Andy
I get what you're saying, and I can't explain it to myself either. There's something pleasing about looking at different kinds of fonts. I know that when I'm doing some comedy video or just come. What. Do whatever I have to do, and I have to go through, like, 500 fonts to try to find the exact specific. I'm like, look. I'm, like, trying to do a parody of, like, say, a snake oil salesman kind of thing. And I'm like, okay, so I have to look for, like, a 1907 type font that will look correct in this so that I can make my stupid, idiotic joke. Why am I wasting an hour doing this? But I. I am. I'm sitting there going font by font and being like, no, not exactly.
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John Flansburgh
It.
- [18:43]
Andy
That looks more like it's 1920s. Like, a flapper would use that or something. Like, I know what you're talking about because it is obsessive. There's an obsessiveness, and it's also a. There. The other. I was gonna say side of it. I don't know about side of it, but another dimension, another facet of it is there's a pleasure in finding the exact right thing, and you don't know what it is. You just have to kind of, like, cycle through. I mean, maybe you, as someone who's a professional, like, does know, like. No, I know what I'm. I know this has to have a serif or whatever. Like, maybe there's a little more intentionality in your brain, whereas I'm just kind of, like, fumbling. But.
- [19:16]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, well, I mean, it's not. It's not necessarily a mad search, but, you know, it is. It is one of those things where there's, like. There's. There's meaning in every part of it, which even. And even if it seems like a very norm core choice, there's still all sorts of, like, normal. There are all sorts of strategies within it. It's, you know, it's just like yeah, it's designed. There's a lot of options in design, but, you know, you're you, it sounds like you, you have Hollywood connections. I just, as a lay person, I want, I want to send out a strong message to all the people in the creative community in Hollywood and beyond, especially the people in the art, art departments there. If you're doing a historic, like a costume drama, historic film, and there's a hand painted sign in the scene, have someone paint it by hand. Don't try to find the computer font that looks like. I was just watching a rerun of Downton Abbey the other day. Just pass, passing through the, that world and they're like having their, you know, their garden party and it's like 1905, and I'm staring at what is clearly computer output, you know, onto some weird Kinko's plastic 3M product that has been transferred onto a, a piece of particle board. And I'm like, this is not what a sign looks like. This sign would have been painted by hand. So I, I'm pleading with the, the visual, the creative visual artists who love listening to podcasts. You hand paint your signs. How bad could it be?
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Andy
I feel like if this was the 1980s, that should have been followed by a shooting star and the more, you know, should have played after that.
- [21:03]
John Flansburgh
Yes. John Linnell said that if next time, you know, we, we, we've won a couple of Grammys, but the next time, if we ever get to, you know, do the Grammy again, he, as his thank you speech, he wants to say, when you're getting up from your seat in the airplane, do not pull down the seat in front of you. There's somebody sitting in it. I would love to, I would love
- [21:31]
Andy
to see a, an award speech that was just someone's like kind of personal gripe slash a kind of PSA type thing.
- [21:39]
John Flansburgh
Well, it is like a PSA though. It is. We're all trying to make, we're all trying to make the world a slightly better place.
- [21:47]
Andy
Many. Hold on. Many of us, you and I are trying to make the world a slightly better place. Many of us. Let's not. I don't want to make a blanket statement.
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John Flansburgh
Right, okay, that's. No, that's true.
- [21:58]
Andy
But like, when you say calamity, like, was it really, like, were you ostracized? Was, Was. Did you have friends? Was no one. I mean, obviously, I know you met John in high school, but like.
- [22:08]
John Flansburgh
No, I, I mean, I, No, I, I had friends. I, I had a couple really close friends. And in fact, you know, John and I became friends in a larger, in a larger group of kind of, you know, like we were in, we were in the newspaper newspaper clique in, in high school and we all worked on the paper and you know, and I, I think, you know, it was like a gang of, of. Of pretty outside people. You know, there were definitely a lot of individuals banded together.
- [22:50]
Andy
She's like a polite way of putting it.
- [22:52]
John Flansburgh
Well, you know, I mean, it was, you know, it was like. Yeah, there was a lot of different kinds of people and, and, and some of them were, you know, pretty extreme. And yeah, it was just a bunch of goofballs.
- [23:04]
Andy
Wait, what was the newspaper like for you guys? Because I was on. I was in the newspaper. I was the editor and of the ninth grade of the junior high newspaper. And then I just became kind of like a reporter, I guess, in senior high because I didn't feel like doing whatever I was supposed to do to work my way up in the hierarchy of the, of the masthead. But like, what was it like for you guys?
- [23:25]
John Flansburgh
It was like the only high school newspaper that, that did not have a real sports section because nobody who worked on the paper really knew anything about sports. I actually did ghost write a bunch of sports article. I would get like, you know, very cursory descriptions of, of what was. How the game had gone down and, And I would just like sort of puff it up into something that seemed like a description. It was, it was some. It was some pretty ripe baloney.
- [24:03]
Andy
I was gonna say. Were you interested at all or was it just more like, well, we need this article on the, on the football.
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John Flansburgh
Yeah, we need. We. We needed the article. And, and you know, I mean, I knew what supposed to be, so I just kind of faked it. I did not put my name to it. I put a fake name to it.
- [24:21]
Andy
So you had an alias for the sports writing for the high school newspaper?
- [24:26]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, it was our paper, but our, but our friend John and I had a very good friend who also worked for the paper who wrote tons of music reviews. His name was James McIntyre. His nickname was Jimmy Mac. And he was, he was a big part of our social group and he was kind of, you know, he, he always knew about everything in advance. Like, he knew everything about. He was an incredible culture vulture. And he. I realize now when he wrote music reviews for the paper, he was very. He was really emulating like Lester Bangs. Like, he was. He was kind, kind of had that gonzoish cream magazine journalistic style, kind of like anti Rolling Stone. In a way. Like, it was all very, very celebratory and frothy and. But, you know, he. He introduced me and John to the Ramones. And you know, I actually when. When. I guess when Tommy Ramon died or. Or I forget who the final Ramon to die was, but when the final Ramon died, I actually was. I. I wrote a. A piece for Slate magazine about it. And I think like one of the things that was so amazing about a group like the Ramones is that like the first time I. We heard them, it was like. You know, the first thing you thought about was like, like, is this even for re. Is this a joke? Is this for real? Like how much of this is real? Like, it was so. It was so different.
- [26:06]
Andy
Wait, wait, can I interrupt you for a second? Like when you first. Like what was it about it? Because it's not like it was that. You know, I mean, there was plenty of rock music like that was.
- [26:16]
John Flansburgh
That preceded this circles back straight to the very beginning of our conversation when we were talking about influence. And I think the thing about a band like the Ramones is they change. If you were there, they. You would be very aware of that. They really changed the ph. Balance of the pond water that everybody was swimming in. There's a great audio tape of Lou Reed be at like. Like whatever A and M studios or whatever studio he worked at in New York being played a cassette of the Ramones and you. And then somebody recorded his immediate response after hearing them. And he was like, that's it. They've done it. They like. They broke the coat. They've broken through. They're doing it. They're doing what everybody wishes they could do. And it's like. I think part of it is like just the. The drive of the guitars and the drums, like just the drive of the music was so relentless, you know, so it was. It was just such a. You know, like those things. They break up the street streets with you know, like a. Not a sledgehammer, but like the.
- [27:28]
Andy
The jackhammer thing.
- [27:29]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, it was like a jackhammer. It was like everybody else had sledgehammers. They had a jackhammer. Like all. It was like a. Just a. It was rocking out at a velocity that no one had ever heard. And then like the nutso lyrics of just like, you know, blitzkrieg bop beat on the crap. Those are like. Those are like these pure 12 year old boy like ID ideas. Like, you know, just weird violent, but also. But then presented super violent, but then presented in a super cartoony way where it seemed very harmless. Like, they're. These are not scary people, you know, but what they're saying is like sociopathic, you know, so like the com. That combination, that little cocktail of things and you know, once they're in the world, everybody's kind of changed a little. Like we're, you know, that's. That's the amazing thing about a band like the Ramones is that we're all kind of different afterwards. And if you, if you weren't around before, you don't realize that you live in a world that's like post Ramones. But they really were, you know. You know, the Ramones didn't sell a ton of records. They didn't have a ton of hit records. But like, I don't think there's a musician working that doesn't somehow like take something out of that that's very different than most. It's just. It's very. It's just very different. It was very. It was extremely new. I mean, you know, but anyway. But how did we get on this topic? Oh, well, my friend Jimmy Mack, he was, you know, he just. He had this crazy record collection. He always was like, he. He saw. I saw the Car's second show, right? The Cars at the Rat. The band, the Cars. I saw them at the Rat in Boston. The Rat Skeller. There were dozens of people in the audience. There were not hundreds of people. There was not a hundred people in the audience. And I know because I would get there first. I had a fake id. I counted how many people were in the room. I recorded things on my cassette recorder. I. Which I hid surreptitiously. I have many, many recordings of things that happened at the Rat Skuller and at the paradise in Boston in the mid-70s.
- [29:44]
Andy
Like, what's happening? Did you ever. Did you ever watch that show? There was a.
- [29:48]
John Flansburgh
What's happened?
- [29:48]
Andy
What's happening? There was an episode where Rerun taped the Doobie Brothers. And it was. And he got caught. And it was this whole episode about how you shouldn't bootleg concerts. That was the. That was the goal of the episode.
- [30:02]
John Flansburgh
Wow. Nobody ever told me that. But no, I was, I was very, very into the. As I said, like, I was very into recording and like that kind of thing. And so I, you know, I had like small. I had like a three inch reel to reel tape recorder when I was like 10 years old. You know, I was really. I was really monomaniacally into this stuff. But, so, so, yeah, like. But my friend Jimmy, I only knew to go to the Cars show because a Week earlier, he had seen them play at a high school in like, some western suburb of Boston. Like, they were playing in like, you know, Framingham High School. Like, their first gig was a. Basically a warm up gig for the real show at the Rat. So they were just, you know, who knows what that was like? But Jimmy saw them there and it was like, you got to see this band. They're incredible. It's insane. Like, they're. They're like fully formed. They're like ready. They're ready to go. And. And they were very impressive band. And I have to say, when you couldn't understand the words, the Mystery of the Cars was quite intoxicating.
- [31:13]
Andy
Do you think this. I don't know how you answered this, but I'm gonna ask anyway. If Jimmy Mac hadn't been in your life, do you think you would have gone on the path you did if he hadn't introduced you to the bands that he introduced you to?
- [31:27]
John Flansburgh
Oh, no. He was incredibly inspirational to me. I mean, I remember having a conversation with him when I was like 18 years old. I, you know, I didn't start playing the guitar Till I was 18, and. And I remember having a conversation with him, you know, and he was like a dj. He was like a promo. He worked. He moved out when he was 17. He moved to New York and, you know, had a job as a promo guy at polygram Records. He was like. He was like sort of, you know, he was the first person anybody knew who was like an actual. It was like he was functioning like an adult as a teenager, which was, you know, something that maybe. I mean, I guess in the film Almost Famous, you kind of get a glimpse of how that idea was sort of acceptable, but it was also insane. You know, it didn't make it. It didn't make any sense that a kid we went to high school with was working in a. At a record company in New York City. It's just like. That seemed wild to me. But, but like, he. Wait, so. So wait, what was I gonna say? Oh, I. I had this real heart to heart conversation with him where I just said, like, you know, I feel like I, I, like I can barely play the guitar like I, I can, and. But like, I'm writing these songs and I, I sort of. I. I basically was just saying, like, I felt like a total imposter at, you know, just trying to, you know, think that I could, like, you know, it was. It was the punk rock moment. It was 19, 77, 78, and it was sort of this Amnesty Day for wannabe musicians. And I, I think in a weird way, I, I, I really rode in on that. Like, you know, it's like I've got my special amnesty card here that says, like, it's okay to be terrible at, at playing the guitar, and yet, like, you should listen to what I'm doing. And he was just like, he was just like, don't ever think about, you know, being an imposter. Like, there's, there's no such thing as an imposter in, in what you're doing. Like, everyone's an imposter, you know, like, and no one's an imposter. Just, just, just if you're doing it, you're doing it, and that makes, that means it's real. If it's happening, it's real. And just, you know, just play what you. Play what you want to play and, and say what you want to say. And he. It was an incredibly. Yeah, it was, it was a great boost to my confidence at the time.
- [34:00]
Andy
That's amazing. Something I've been thinking about as you've been talking, too, has been. I've been trying to think in my head about how to, how to reconcile a lot of, a lot of your early obsessions, right? Pop music, recording, fonts, graphic design. All the stuff to me in my brain, form and process. I think it kind of revolves around form and process.
- [34:25]
John Flansburgh
Yeah.
- [34:25]
Andy
What do you think? What, what is about that. That excites your brain?
- [34:33]
John Flansburgh
I mean, this sounds very like, you know, postgraduate work kind of stuff. And not to sort of, you know, climb into my own head too much, but I think it's about understanding idiom like, like, like that all these things are. Have, you know, every ev. Ultimately, I guess, you know, music, every song is, is like a, its own variant of a set of, of musical ideas. Like, you, you can point at any part of a song and say, this is clearly from this thread of musicality. But then they added this little spice of, of. Of this kind of musicality. And some of those things are ethnic, and some of those things, you know, have, like, long ethnic traditions. Some of them are, you know, some of those things are, you know, electronically induced. Like that, you know, or like the effect is, is, you know, just something that somebody thought of in, you know, Les Paul thought of in 1951 or, or, you know, Jeff Emmerich thought of in 1965. You know, there's, there are people who change things in, in meaningful ways that you can, you can figure out where it started. And I think, you know, knowing those Things like, there's no limit to how much you can know about, about, you can dig in. The thing about music and graphic design and, you know, and art, visual art in general is. And, and this is true of photography, this is true of filmmaking or cinema, anything. Like, there's no end to it. Like, you can, you can dig in as far as you want and there's still more to understand. Like, you know, I think if you were a cinematographer, you would be in heated agreement. Like, you don't have to be the movie director or the screenwriter, you can just be the cinematographer. And you're still in a world where there's no limit to how much you can know and how much you can dig into it. You know, it's just like, that's a world, you know, just think like it, you know, it took me forever to figure out. Like, I remember when I first started working with lenses and doing photography and doing like a little bit of filmmaking and doing rock videos, and I was like, why, why would you ever not use a wide angle lens? Everything about it seems cooler. And it really took me like quite a bit of time to figure out, like, like, oh, there are so many reasons why it's great to use a long lens. You know, I, you know, at this point, you know, I sort of, I mean, I feel this way, you know, I feel this way about Steely Dan. When I was, when I was a teenager, I could barely, I could barely understand why, how people could tolerate Steely Dan. And now, and now I kind of love Steely Dan. So, you know, people, People change.
- [37:33]
Andy
Yeah. No, no, I totally get this. When I was a. I used to be a philosophy professor and I taught a philosophy of art class a couple times. And one of them.
- [37:43]
John Flansburgh
You should be telling me one of the.
- [37:45]
Andy
No, no, no. Well, I'm curious what it does in your brain, but I can tell you that what excited me about this one class was I did. I forget the. The title and I forget the author, but it was basically like a dialectic of forms. So it went through just like shapes, like aesthetic shapes, like, I don't know, like a headboard, Like a headboard in 1850, what they might have carved on it and then what it might be carved on it, you know, 20 years later. And how that was a response. Just the shape of it was a response. It wasn't about like the meaning or anything else. It was like, hey, you know, there's a dialogue going on throughout history of the kind of just like shapes and forms of art. And that's Fascinating. And it goes, you know, like any other thing that you can be interested in, it goes back so long, and there's so much. And it's not just, like. It's not just temporal. It spreads out geographically throughout an era so that you have this whole, you know, the length and breadth of history is full of these kind of formic conversations.
- [38:52]
John Flansburgh
Right. Well, I mean, art history is. You know, it's no surprise that art history as a. As a pursuit is so politicized, because culturally, what you're talking about is all these things. You're basically trying to figure out what the culture really adds up to. And the. And those are really big. You know, those are really big questions. And it doesn't. And it doesn't surprise me that, like, you know, that people who are coming in with, like, you know, ideas of, like, feminist ideas or, you know, ideas of, like, racial history or things like that. I mean, ultimately, there's a lot of economic, you know, expression, or you think about, like, you know, Protestantism and, like, what that does. You introduce that to a culture that was previously Catholic, like, that's gonna change. That's gonna change the size of the building. And this is going to change the. The. The pitch of the ceiling. You know, it's. It's like it's going to affect the way people will have a different idea of grandeur and a different idea of modesty and. And, you know, it's just all these things as culture moves around. People want things to complement their experience, and that changes all. That's what changes style.
- [40:13]
Andy
Yeah. I don't know if this is answerable, but I'm going to ask it anyway, and we'll see where it leads.
- [40:17]
John Flansburgh
Oh, I think we're answering all the questions now.
- [40:21]
Andy
Just because you were raised. I'm thinking about this. You're raising the tumult of the 60s into the 70s.
- [40:26]
John Flansburgh
Let's move on to Israel and Palestine after this. I think we're on to. I think we're on to something.
- [40:32]
Andy
Here's the thing that I'm thinking of. You're raised in this kind of tumultuous era. Like the. Like, I was born in the 80. In the. In 79. I was raised in the 80s. As tumultuous as the world was, America felt pretty kind of, like, calm for most of my life. Right. I'm wondering, is this just the way your brain is kind of set up? Where this is, what's of of interest to you?
- [40:57]
John Flansburgh
Or.
- [40:58]
Andy
And this is why I say, I don't know if this is Answerable or not. But like, I. I was thinking, I'm like, I wonder if there's something in this of like the kind of chaos of the world you were raised in, a little bit of the America you were raised. And if there was something satisfying or some about, hey, this is some. Like, there's so much here that I can dig into, and there is a. There's some kind of definitiveness to it where I can, like, look at a font and there's something solid about that.
- [41:27]
John Flansburgh
Right, right. I mean, that's. That's an interesting. I mean, I think, you know, listen. I mean, these are. These are. To me, these. Whether it was like design or art or, you know, visual stuff, cultural stuff or fashion, or even just like watching a TV commercial that was really zippy, zappy, or listening to, you know, the Beatles or James Brown or whatever, which were like totally like the radio of my childhood. All those things were, you know, they were fun. You know, I mean, it was. It was in the background there. You know, it was in the back. I mean, I think this is why, you know, I was born in 1960, and I think there is this tendency of boomers to be extremely tedious about, you know, how. How. How chaotic, you know, the time that they came up in was. But, you know, I mean, you could make a pretty good argument that it was actually pretty chaotic. I think the transition from the, you know, the Eisenhower ish time to the Nixon y time was, you know, a lot of stuff. There was a lot of stuff happening. And this was. I was a child and, you know, my dad had. My dad was an architect. He had a p. Had. His firm was in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And, you know, right in. Sort of in the shadow of Harvard University. And they were, you know, they were really in the barrel. Like, there was, you know, there were student protests on the Harvard campus that bled out into Harvard Square. You know, it was like long hair and, you know, the sexual revolution and, you know, all that stuff was brand new and. And super freaky and. And, you know, I think. I think my. My parents were young people, but they were like more in the sort of groovy in the way that like, people who worked for the Rand Corporation, it was like. They were like, groovy in the way that somebody would be groovy in the office of Mad Men. And actually, I mean, I have to say, watching. Watching Mad Men was amazing. Was it got so many things right. I really. I was actually kind of shocked at how. How smart a show it was. I was actually in my Father's office when the IBM Selectric typewriter arrived. And there's a parallel scene in Mad Men where it. I, I, there's so, there's so, I'm sure there's a German word for this, this, the, the, the similarities between real life, my memory, and, and what is in the show, it's just runs absolutely parallel. It's like shocking.
- [44:28]
Andy
Unheimlick. I think, I think there's a Freudian term.
- [44:31]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, well, you're, you've got, you've got the philosophy background.
- [44:36]
Andy
Do you think? Were you trapped in between these two things like your, your parents kind of the, the older mentality and the, the new 60s ish world that was coming up, or did you gravitate towards one?
- [44:53]
John Flansburgh
You know, I think I was too young to really understand what was happening around me. You know, it was like, because so much of it was just for, it was the concern of grown ups, you know, the Vietnam War, all, you know, all the stuff of the 60s were mostly like adult, you know, very much adult issues. So I just, I just, A lot of it, I, you know, probably made me just a little bit scared. I didn't, I didn't relate to my parents on certain, in certain ways. Like, I wanted to have long hair. Like, you know, I had, I had a crew, I had a crew cut. My grandfather was like a career army guy, you know, so it's like that was, that was sort of in the background as well. It's like, you know, you know, you're gonna go visit your grandfather with your crazy long hair. Like, that's not gonna go over well.
- [45:51]
Andy
I mean, your brother is an activist, so like, was he that, like, he's only a little older than you, but, like, was he then, like, what was, you know, did he, was he rebelling?
- [46:03]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, he was, he was probably, he was probably more of a rebel than, than me. I mean, you know. Yeah, I mean, I was just a little, I was just a little brother, you know, like, and, you know, he definitely, he definitely was into, you know, growing his, growing his hair out and doing all the hippie stuff. And, you know, we'd listen to like, Fireside Theater records. Have you ever heard the Fireside Theater again? Those are like, records that are really, those are things that are really hard to explain, like how, you know, I don't even know what kind of entertainment that is. You know, I mean, you could sort of say, like, oh, it's sort of like Cheech and Chong. But it was like, it was not, it was not broad or accessible. It was Actually, very much. It was almost like teaching you how to appreciate like, like post comedy. I mean, I think, or what is the term, you know, when you think of, like modern comedy, that is very absurdist. It was very much. It was it really along those lines.
- [47:14]
Andy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of British. I think there is a segment of Americans who, if you listen to or watched British. If you listen to British radio, like comedy stuff or watched British shows when you were younger, you got split off from people and from the. You know, obviously I can watch a Statham film and talk about, you know, whatever the latest action film is that I've seen, because there's some pleasure in just being able to talk to someone at a party. But really in my heart, I'm thinking about Taskmaster or some other, you know, British thing that is in my head that is like, really exciting me.
- [47:57]
John Flansburgh
Right, right. Well, I mean, I guess it all comes down to, you know, I think in my. In my childhood, in my teen years, there was a very strong sense of what the mainstream culture was. And then there was a very. Also a very strong thread of what was really only a counterculture. And like, we live in a time now where there is really no monoculture. You know, even. Even when something is as successful as, like somebody like, you know, like the Bad Bunny thing is the really interesting example to me, because Bad Bunny is. Is about as successful a recording act as you're going to get in 2026. So it's like. And yet the President of the United States and his allies are so culturally deaf that they don't know that they have to roll with it. You know, like anybody, you know, if in the. In the era of a monoculture, you could, you would have some guy like Bob Hope and, you know, he, you know, who's like 30 years, you know, down the toilet not understanding what kids are doing. You know, he stopped understanding what kids are doing when they were still doing the Lindy Hop, probably. And so it's like, so how in the world is he going to keep up? Well, he's not going to keep up. He's just going to smile and say that thing you're doing is wild. And just like, nod his head and wear the beetle wig when the beetle wig arrives from the prop department. And, you know, just be an affable old per older person and acknowledge that you don't really know what's going on in the world. What's weird about now is that like, you know, there are tons of number one records that nobody even knows you know, most people don't know. Like, I track the charts, I listen to what's happening, and I still know. I'm very aware that most people do not know those songs. And it's just a weird idea to me to have a number one song in the cult in the country and people don't know it. You know, how odd is that? Especially when there's so many slamming great songs like apt. Okay, well, this is.
- [50:17]
Andy
That's what I was about to ask. Do you keep track of these things because you want to just know what's going on, or do you keep track of them because it. You actually like the songs and you're like, oh, I can find. I can find. Yeah, this is a number one hit. But it does. There's something interesting about it that I can find in it.
- [50:34]
John Flansburgh
Well, I listen, like, if I'm driving in the car by myself, I will listen to Hot 97, which is like the big hip hop radio station in New York City. And I think half the time, you know, I might get caught. I might get caught up in like a, you know, a catchy song that's got some really hooky thing about it. But a lot of the time I'm just really like, checking out the production techniques because, like, those production techniques are like, that's like, that is culturally like the most. That's about as far left as you can get in the world of production. I mean, I love, like. I mean this is, this is ancient history now, but like, you know, when Missy Elliott and Timbaland were coming up, like that stuff. Stuff was like blowing my mind because they're working with a lot of the same tools that I work with when I'm putting tracks together, but they're just, they're. They're so free with it. And then like, later on, like, you know, I have to admit, like, when like Trap House came along, I really thought, like, there's got to be something in here that I can glean that like, could be a really interesting point of departure for us production wise. But it was really hard to. I mean, those, those. It's hard to pull apart productions like that. They're so. I mean, part of it is like, I mean, they're just really stoned, first of all. Like, they're like, you know, entirely created by people who are entirely stoned. So. So it's. It's just hard to get to that, you know, without being stoned. But I don't know, it just sort of unravels when you examine it too much.
- [52:12]
Andy
Okay. We're almost towards the end, and there's a couple things I'm still curious about.
- [52:16]
John Flansburgh
I don't want this to end. I don't want this to.
- [52:19]
Andy
We go. As long as you, as you have time for.
- [52:21]
John Flansburgh
I, I have this tumbler of coffee in front of me.
- [52:24]
Andy
I am curious. When you were growing up, was it a kind of 1950s parenting where the parents and the kids are very separate and their parents are just authority figures? Or were. Was it a more. As it got into the 60s and into the 70s, was it a more kind of like, I don't want to say collegial environment, but like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, we're like, I, I was raised. I'll tell you this. I was. My parents, even though I was, I was born in 79, it was still a very like their authority figures. Like, you know.
- [53:02]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, my mom and dad were mom and dad or moms and dads. They were not. There was no, there was no call me by your, my first name kind of thing. And I, and, and you probably honest, I, I, I, I kind of, I can never believe that that actually happens, even though I know it does. I know, I know parents have very different relationships with their kids now, and I'm sure it's infinitely healthier, but it's, it all seems very unbelievable to me.
- [53:30]
Andy
Yeah, yeah. No, no, I can't. I remember in temple once, some, one of my friends was like, yeah, my parents let us like, drink in the basement. I'm like, what the are.
- [53:41]
John Flansburgh
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [53:41]
Andy
That they would allow that at all, like, any of that. I was just like, it was so foreign to me.
- [53:46]
John Flansburgh
But, you know, I don't have kids, so I actually, I feel like I don't have a right to speak on the topic because I haven't had to actually face the real. You know, I, you know, you hear a lot of parents. I mean, I've heard this from multiple people I know say I'd rather that they, you know, experience it, like, around me than somewhere else. And, and I, and of course I nod my head and I agree. And then I think, really just, you know, does the kid want to have. Does the kid want to get slightly drunk in front of their parents? But I mean, maybe you can get, get front. Maybe just wait till you're 18. You know, go, go do it somewhere else.
- [54:26]
Andy
Yeah. Or the ones that could confide in their parents, I could tell them their problems. I was like, I can't. I hid my high school girlfriend from my parents until it was Obvious that we were dating, because I was just like, I don't want to let them know anything about my private life.
- [54:42]
John Flansburgh
Well, lucky for you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, basically, I, you know, I got a job. I kind of left high school a year in my senior year. I left because I had enough credits to graduate, and that was the way the school was structured. So I was absent for 153 days, evidently, but I got a job in a record store in. In Harvard Square. And then I got a job. I got an apartment there. And so I moved out early. And that allowed me to kind of. I didn't. I didn't have to ask my parents if it was okay to drink a beer. I just. I just got an apartment. An apartment and drank beer by myself.
- [55:24]
Andy
Were you just. Did you leave early just because, like, hey, I don't want to do this anymore. And I. There's other things I want to do. Were you, like, trying to be like. Like create an identity for yourself apart from your family? Like, what was going on?
- [55:36]
John Flansburgh
It's sort of hard to say, sort of hard to sum up. Like, it was. It was complicated. It was a lot of things. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't. I. I can't. I can't really talk about it in a. In a public forum, but it was, it was, it was the right thing to do. You know, I'm not even sure that it was like a natural that I would have ended up go. Going to college at that point. I just ended. I happened to go to college, but that I really, in a weird way, it was the beginning of a mut. Like a much longer interval of floundering around. But, you know, but I got, you know, I got my scene together. Ultimately, I did, you know, art school really was the thing that I ended up. I went to two different schools before I went to the Pratt Institute, and Pratt Institute was really like my sort of creative savior. And that was very. That was like, I'm very grateful that I. I kind of found a soft landing in the world of fine arts. And, And a lot of what I learned in getting a BFA at Pratt ended up being immediately transferable to being in a rock band, which sounds completely unlikely, but I can. I could talk about it forever.
- [56:51]
Andy
Did you have a desire for yourself? Because I know you said earlier that you weren't like, like goal oriented, but was there something you actually, you wanted, even if you weren't. Even if you maybe didn't have the mechanism to go after it?
- [57:04]
John Flansburgh
I just like making stuff you know, I like making stuff, and, you know, I like the act of making stuff. I like thinking about making new stuff, and all that seemed very positive, just in an immediate. It's like one of the only things that was satisfying to me was, like, just doing things and. But, you know, I was also, like, you know, very. I was, like, very easily distracted. I was very easily frustrated, to be perfectly honest. I started drinking coffee the day I got to Pratt, and I don't think a day has gone by since, and that. This is probably 45 years. I don't think a day has gone by that I haven't had coffee. So, you know, it was a real. That was a real life changer for me. I. You know, I drink a lot of coffee. Coffee. And I. I love. I love drinking coffee, and it really. It changes. It sort of changes. Speaking of, you know, changing your ph balance, like, it changes who I am in. In for the better. I. I would recommend it to anybody.
- [58:07]
Andy
John. I think I. I think we're on the same wavelength. Let me just tell you what my afternoon was like yesterday where I bounced around from editing a podcast, working on. Well, I was just proofing a script that I was writing, doing the laundry, doing the dishes, prepping dinner, and I was just jumping around from. I would do a little bit of one thing, and then I would be like, oh, I forgot to do this other thing, and then run to my computer to do that for a little bit, and then run, oh, the laundry's done, and run over there. And I. It was the happiest I've been in a week where I'm just like, oh, I really need, like, a bunch of different things to just kind of, like, flit around to.
- [58:47]
John Flansburgh
Yeah.
- [58:48]
Andy
Yeah. So I. I don't know if that's exactly what your brain is like, but I. I feel like we're at least orbiting the same planet.
- [58:55]
John Flansburgh
Absolutely. It's. It's good to get. To get. Good to have that to do list. You know, it's. It's all. It's all. It's great to check off all the
- [59:04]
Andy
boxes, but I have to, like, my brain. I couldn't just, like, do one thing and then finish that and go to the next thing. It was this. This constant, like, rotation through all these different things. That was enjoyable, if that makes any sense.
- [59:17]
John Flansburgh
Right. Well, I mean, that. That is. That is the fun of. Of. Of mania, you know? I mean, there. It's. It's. It's fun until it all comes crashing down.
- [59:32]
Andy
Was there a point, though, where you made an actual choice for yourself, like, this is what I want to do. Or was it just once you found Pratt and you're like, oh, I like doing this. And then once the band took off, you were just like, oh, I also like doing this. I'm gonna keep going in these directions.
- [59:49]
John Flansburgh
Well, you know, earlier in our conversation, I don't know if this was before we were on the air or not. We were talking about like, you know, people like get, you know, getting lucky. I think, you know, John and I, we started in like 82 doing shows and I was still in, I was still in school then. I was still, you know, and I, and I had a full time job. So, you know, I was working for Metro north, working on the, on the railroads as a surveyor and counting people getting on and off trains. It was a very, it was like out of a Russian novel. And, and you know, the band, it's, you know, the evolution of a band is so strange because it's, it, it can happen for something that inevitably. Oh, it's, it's sort of like that earn. What's the Ernest Hemingway thing about going bankrupt? He. It happened very slowly and then all of a sudden, ah, I think being in a band, being in a successful band, there's the, the thing that's kooky about it is that like, you know, from 82 to like 87, it was like nothing was happening for us. I mean we were just, we would go do shows and we clearly went over like, you know, like, you know, if you're in a band and like people like what you do, like if strangers like what you do and you've got something to offer, that definitely puts you in a different category. Like, it's like, and, and you know, it's like, it's like there was definitely that going on with us even from the very first show. Like, we didn't. We. From the first show we did. Most of the people in the audience we didn't know and we could, and you could tell that it was something and it wasn't clear what it was. I thought I was very confident that what we were doing was going to be perceived as something very abstract and slightly strange. And I immediately realized that we were being perceived as something very familiar and probably like somebody's brother and maybe their cousin, like, you know, like that relate, like people related to our band. No matter how, how weird what we were doing was being presented, people related to what we were doing in a very friendly way. Like, I mean, I, I guess, you know, we just didn't invest enough in our own, like, personal mystery to come across as. As different or strange and. But I think ultimately that might be why we went over. But we, we always kind of went over, but we didn't. It wasn't like, oh, these guys are going to be huge. I mean, I've been. I just was recently talking about seeing Elvis Costello. I saw Elvis Costello's first public show when I was 17. That was very. That was also very. I went to London in the summer of 1977 and saw a bunch of punk rock bands, but also saw Elves Castellas for show. And I can tell you it was at the Nashville Room. There are about 200 people in the room. And I was still counting how many people were in the room. And, and that was like, definitely like a star is born. Like, you know, everybody's looking around at each other going, like, can you believe how great this is? Like, that was, that was, that was that. So I know what that is. And we never had they Might Be Giants, never had that. But we definitely had a. Like, this is fun. Like, this is worth checking out. These guys are interesting. Like, and that worked for us. And we just put it along and puttered along and things got bigger and bigger and we just had good luck doing this and good luck doing that. There were people on the local New York scene who are incredibly friendly to us. Like Chris Butler from the Waitresses, the guy who wrote Christmas Wrapping. We didn't know him. And he lent us his D DMX drum machine, this thing that cost 2, $500. Then he just lent to Strain, essentially Strangers. He's like, I like your band. You should use this. Like, I'll take it. I'm going on the road. I'll be back in three weeks, you know, or two weeks or whatever. Give. Give it back to me. And don't, don't break it. But just like, but like, we didn't know him. And Jules Shear, the guy who wrote all through the Night, he was a songwriter, got his shows at like, Dance Interior. He called up the guy who booked Danceteria and got his book there. Like, I've never called up a booking agent and said, like, you gotta book this band. It's like the nicest thing. People were so. People were so nice to us. I mean, you know, I do, I do think, like, we had some good luck and we made some good luck and we did a lot of shows. Like, we played a lot. We played every week for a couple years. We played every weekend in Manhattan, which is an insane thing to Even try to do, like, they're not there, but there were a lot of gigs kind of coming up. There are a lot of clubs. And, yeah, it was just a very crazy time. But. But people were incredibly nice to us.
- [65:03]
Andy
I have two questions from that. One of them was, were you surprised that you were. You know, you said it was like we were like someone's older brother or something like that. Were you surprised that you were connecting with people as someone who had niche interests?
- [65:18]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought what we're doing was sort of inherently a little bit difficult and to get. And I liked a lot of band. Like, my favorite bands were kind of like, growing up in the suburbs, there's always this thing of, like, there's this. The suburban record store. What's the weirdest record in the store? And be like, oh, this is the Captain Beefheart record. That's the weirdest record in the store. Okay. Like, are we. Maybe we're. I mean, we're not as strange as Captain Beefheart, but when we started, we were closer to Per Ubu or closer to the Residents than a lot of other things. And those were the bands that were kind of. Those were the bands that were very persuasive to us in that moment. I mean, we had been. We had. You know, we had gone through the Ramones and the Talking Heads and Elvis Costello and all that song stuff. But when we landed in New York, the no Wave thing was really what was happening in New York, which was this very ex. You know, kind of extreme, screamy. Ultimately, it was not very persuasive at all. I mean, audiences didn't like it, but. But it was. It was the thing that was officially happening. And so, I mean, we weren't emulating that so much, but I think we were anticipating that it would be more of an uphill climb getting people to. To dig the band. But. But no, it always kind of had. And it always had this sort of an essential appeal. And it was. It was. I mean, it was ultimately, maybe that's our lucky break. You know, I mean, people. What. You know, people say, like. Like, why. You know, why did you succeed? And I think. I think in spite of having a lot of kind of unorthodox elements in it, I think people just got it. They just got it in a very natural way. It didn't. It didn't hurt their head trying to figure out why it. It clicked.
- [67:17]
Andy
If it hadn't, do you think that graphic design would have satisfied whatever that feeling is inside of you to make
- [67:25]
John Flansburgh
things that's an interesting question. I mean, I ended up doing it professionally and for, you know, like from like 20. What ages? Like from like the age of 21 to the age of 28. I worked as a. In graphic design, like for publishing companies and magazines in New York City. And you know, it was a job. Like some of those jobs are horrible. I mean, I actually had jobs. I had more than one job where I worked in what had been a closet. More than one. I, I worked, I worked. What was it? I worked at Scholastic, I worked in a closet. And I. When I worked it for part of my job at Random House, I worked in a closet. Like a windowless, ventless room by myself with a door that had to be closed. And that would, you know, that was not a glamorous existence, but, but it was a job, you know, and they were good paying jobs. Like, that was the thing that was weird about it was like it was, you know, coming from being an art student, it was like a shock to get paid so well. And by the end of it I was working at Conde Nast. And that was an amazing. It was just a great place to work. Like, everybody was all these smart people and, and like this very sophisticated, very urbane reality. And my boss was like married to the guy who ran our record. The record company that put out her first record. So she was like being just. I mean, she was being very kind to me to just let me work there. I mean, I was, I was perfectly qualified to work there, but I wouldn't have gotten it. It was a friend relationship that got me in the door. But then to be perfectly honest, it was like it was such a good paying job. It was, it was, it was so crazy. Like I was making so much money and to leave it to like the thing that finally broke. It was like when the Lincoln album came out and it was like touring. Touring took over our lot, my life and John's life. And we were just on the road the all for like a year. And then both of us had this experience of kind of getting back to town and realizing that like there was another person working at the desk that we had left and that there wasn't. We, you know, we didn't get fired. We just sort of. And we didn't quit. It just the job just kind of. The jobs just kind of floated away.
- [70:06]
Andy
So. Okay, final question then. The way that you have been describing this was that there was this kind of like. I don't know, I'll say the word vague desire to create. Maybe it was a little more overt than that and that it kind of just like you settled, you were like making music, you are doing graphic design. At what point do you think it became your identity? Like, I'm a creative, like, at what point do you think you said to yourself, oh, I'm a creative person or this is what I do, or this is like a deep part of me.
- [70:37]
John Flansburgh
That's a really good question. I don't, you know, at. I feel like there's like three levels to it. You know, I think like when I was 6 years old and had a transistor radio and was listening to wabc, you know, underneath my pillow, just listening to, you know, the Supremes or whatever, that was as much what I was about as, as, you know, I mean, if you're into something, you don't have to make it. It's true, you know, to be somebody who, who. But I think anybody who writes a song, you know, you realize you, you realize you're kind, you're always in communication with every other song that's ever been written. You're always, I mean, speaking of imposter syndrome, you know, songs, songs are all, all songs are songs, you know, and all songwriters are just, you know, like sometimes when you're writing a song, you're thinking like, you know, this song is really like in dialogue with some, some Louis Armstrong song that you heard like 50 years ago and, and was made 100 years ago. And that's really what it is, you know, and that's, that's part of your creative process. It's. You're not copying anything. You're not, you're just, you know, thinking about it, riffing off it. You know, maybe, you know, maybe Nick and some, you know, hopefully it isn't a double digit percentage of it, but it's like, but you know, songs are made of things, you know, they're made of claves and chord progressions and melodies and, and there's a lot of variation and there's a lot of ways to do it. But yeah, I mean, when did I feel like I graduated to being. Well, this speaks to just a final thing. I have a very, what a sort of professionally dysmorphic idea of the band. I think of what we're doing as just an abstract idea. I don't think of it as like, like, oh, it's John and John and these are our faces and these, this is our attitude and this is how we're presenting ourselves. Like, I actually think like I, I, in, in my dream, I would almost rather be like the residents, like, and be like a faceless band that has no identity and could. And. Because then there's the unlimited potential of being any kind of thing. You know, you can kind of. You can write any kind of song and nobody's saying, like, oh, that's so them. You know, to me, when, to me, I, I. If people just think that the songs are like a reflection of us, that seems somehow smaller and less interesting than writing a song that's just its own weird song, you know, songs. I mean, when I think of songs like that, I would really have loved. I would have loved to have written like. Like oh, Superman by Laurie Anderson. Like, to me, that's like. That would be like, the achievement, you know, because, you know, you know, oh, Superman as is. I mean, first of all, sonically, it's absolutely singular. It's crazy. It's just a crazy sounding song. And then at the lyric of it, at the core of it, it's almost just like a. She's a suburban girl, like, talking about, like, her mom, you know, it's like, so you. No one couldn't relate to, you know, it's about, like, leaving a phone message to your mom. It's so, I don't know, it's. It's just like, to me, that is a kind of a perfect balancing act in a song. And, you know, there's a million ways, you know, pop songs are confections and they're all balancing acts and they're all, do, you know, doing. They've got this going and this going, this going. And to me, like, that's what's fascinating about it, is you can constantly reinvent it.
- [74:44]
Andy
So it's almost, if, If I can say this and tell me if I'm being accurate or not, it's almost as if just you contain all these multitudes within yourself and that there isn't a. There wasn't like a. This is my identity. It's more like there's all of this that I'm containing within this one human being.
- [75:01]
John Flansburgh
Yeah, I'm just, you know, we're all just in the world just watching too much tv, listening to too much of the radio.
- [75:08]
Andy
Yeah, but I. This is the. I think this is the difference, though. And I can only use myself as a sounding board. But, like, I feel like there is a thing that is me and there are all these, like, boundaries around me, and I don't feel like I. Like there are certain things that I can do very, very well, and there are certain things that I am not great at creatively and I just like, I don't, I don't aim in those directions because I know it's going to be like, at best, mediocre.
- [75:34]
John Flansburgh
Well, that's, I mean, that is one of life's great disappointments. Is. And as we enter into the third hour of this podcast, I want to explore, you know, is. Is. Is that, you know, it is frustrating when you. That when you figure out that you're not that good at the thing that you. A kind of thing that you might like even more than what you're good at. I think people, that's something that's not really discussed enough. You know, I mean, I think for me and John, we both realized we were way better working with kind of set material like that we could, that we could rehearse. We could write tight, tight stuff and rehearse it in kind of a tight way and that crafty way of presenting ourselves. We were working with tape at the beginning, so it was like a drum. Drum machine on tape. So. And we would rehearse like demons to put stuff together. So a lot of it was really like a stunt. You know, it's like, here's our, here's this crazy song and it's like we're going to present it in this like super rapid fire crazy way and it'll be kind of dazzling. And I think we figured out that we, that, that worked for us because when we tried doing like, expulsive improvisational stuff, which was very, which was very popular in that moment, it just, it didn't always scan so great. It didn't work. And I just don't think we were that good at it. Like, there, there were people around who were really good at it. Maybe the fact that, like, the band before us or the band after us was so much better at it, it was made. It kind of illustrated that. But yeah, it's, It's a weird. It is hard. And I, I feel like a lot of creative people, they, they. The thing that they're, they discount the thing that they're naturally good at. If something comes easy, if something comes naturally to you, you kind of think, you know, how could that be? How could be that be so great? I mean, a friend of mine who's a much more successful musician than I am, his whole attitude is really wrapped up in that. Like, he, he does not respect the thing that he, you know, he's got like a very unique, you know, point of view and a very unique set of skills and, and he does not really respect it that much. You Know, and he's just like, yeah, you know, whatever. And it's so interesting because in a weird way it's like, you know, from a distance you're like, dude, like you're, you're a freaking, you know, genius. And he's, and it's like it. But I think that's a very natural, I think that's a very human thing for people to just not think that anything, anything that they've got that comes easy. Is that special?
- [78:38]
Andy
Yeah. But it feels like for you again that there's a lot of things that you are good at and that, that all of those things together.
- [78:45]
John Flansburgh
I am not encompass anything that is, that is, that is the. It took me so long to just be able to sing and play the guitar at the same time. Like it was just like, I, I, I, I mean honestly, I'm not trying to beat myself up. I mean I'm a self actualized person. I, I got over that. But like, but at the same time, like, I just, I just, I appreciate, I appreciate your enthusiasm for my potential.
- [79:11]
Andy
But, but, but how did, how to wait if you have that kind of self deprecating feeling inside of you, Even in those early days, was it there? Like how do you get over it to, to write music, to perform it?
- [79:24]
John Flansburgh
I mean, there was a, there was a fair bit of woodshedding involved, you know, but yeah, it was, it did not come, it didn't come that easy for me. You know, I mean, also like, I mean it's hard to explain but like I, it came really slow. It was, it came really hard. It was not, it was not natural, you know, and, and you know, I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad it got better. I mean, I could, you know, I can sing and play and I can sing in tune pretty good now. And you know, I mean, it's, it's weird that some things like take a lifetime. Like I feel like I can sing really well now, like on like I can sing like a real singer now. But like I've spent a lot of time practicing. When we first started, like I really, I, I couldn't, I couldn't keep my voice together for like a whole show. So you know, people, some, you know, and, and our career could have ended like in that first five years and that just would have been it. And I would be a guy who's like at the end of the bar going like, you know, man, I wish, I wish I had, you know, practiced my vocal exercises more. But now, you know, I have the satisfaction of like, actually having, you know, like, I. I have many. I can look back on many shows where I sang really well. But, yeah, I mean, these are weird. I mean, this is. As I say, I've never been to a therapist, so.
- [80:58]
Andy
Yeah. So it's almost as if, like, the proof is in the pudding in a certain sense, where you're like, well, it seems like I've had this long career, I'm still making good music. It is, it is. People enjoy it, so that must. It, like, you found the proof outside of yourself as opposed to. From.
- [81:17]
John Flansburgh
Yeah. And, you know, like, also, and this is, like, this is no small thing is that, you know, I'm. I'm in a duo and people tend to, like, really want to kind of like Mutt and Jeff duos. Like, when you're in a duo, you. You really come to understand that, like, the only thing they want is Oasis. They want you to be the opposites of each other. They want you to hate each other. Like, and the. The truth is, like, my, you know, I'm a year younger than John Linnell, and, you know, I was watching the Beatles Anthology rerun thing a couple months back, and, like, you know, George Harrison pointed out that he is, like nine months younger than Paul McCartney, and he feels like he will always be nine months younger than Paul McCartney, AND that it sort of defined. Like, it defined their childhood relationship, but that also just carried through. And I think to a certain extent, that is true for me and John. Like, John was a really natural musician and had a lot of really great ideas, and he taught me an incredible amount of stuff. And. And he gave me a ton of confidence about a lot of things that I would not have been confident about. Like, just like, his approval was incredibly huge for me. And. And really, you know, it's everything. It changed me completely. And. And it. And I feel like the great thing about being in a functioning duo is that you make each other brave. Like, you. You look at you. You both have your kind of, you know, bullshit meter set to stun a little bit, and then, you know, something. Something comes across the transom that seems really phony. And. And you go. And you look at each other and you go, like, I don't want to do that. It's like, I don't want. I don't think we should do that. And that's. And that's a really different kind of situation than being by yourself when it's like, you know, somebody comes to the room and says, like, hey, there's a dumpster full of money. If you just do this thing that's totally crappy and, and you go like, okay, you know, it's like, you know, and what does that mean? Like, I mean, it means different things to different people. Like, we've, we've had a whole career doing children's music. To a lot of people who are like, very concerned about their public image and being taken seriously and concerned about their authenticity, they would say, oh, like, you know, children's music is like, is bullshit. Like, how can you even do that? But like, as a writer, I can tell you, writing for kids, you know, if you want an open assignment, if you want to be in the world of, you know, Charles Schultz and bugs Bunny and Dr. Seuss, you know, the greatest, most creative, energized, fun, cool stuff that's ever been, like, write for kids. Because, like, writing for kids is at its most elevated level, is you're never going to get to something that is more an open invitation to do something inspiring than that. And, and I think, you know, we sort of saw that that was an opportunity, so that was, that was that. But, you know, it's not going to help you at the tattoo parlor. You know,
- [84:46]
Andy
John, that seems like a lovely place to end. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [84:52]
John Flansburgh
This is, yeah, this is a marathon. I'm, I'm, I think I'm gonna cry.
- [85:02]
Andy
I've said like, I, I, I have a real problem being genuine, but I mean, I have been listening to your music since I was a child. It is meant a lot. It has meant a lot to me.
- [85:14]
John Flansburgh
You know, it meant a lot to me and it was a fascinating, a bunch of questions like this very different than a regular interview. So, so thanks you for providing the
- [85:23]
Andy
format and I appreciate you going on the journey with me. So thank you and we'll see you next time. Bye bye.
- [85:30]
John Flansburgh
Oh by oh by oh by oh by oh. Bye bye. Oh by oh Bye bye bye.
- [85:40]
Andy
Beginning
- [85:44]
John Flansburgh
beginnings Goodbye Goodbye.