← Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Dr. Mary Alice Mina: Are You Using Too Many Skincare Products? Stop Overthinking Skincare and Do This Instead
00:55:41
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- [00:00]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Amitai Eshel
Welcome to the Biohacking Beauty Podcast where we explore the science and strategies behind achieving radiant, youthful skin. I'm your host, Amitai Eshel, and this podcast is brought to you by Yang Goose Skincare, the biohacking skincare brand focused on helping you age gracefully by combining the latest in skincare science with cutting edge biohacking techniques. Today, we are thrilled to have Dr. Mary Alice Mina with us. A respected dermatologist and a skincare expert known for her no nonsense approach to healthy, beautiful skin, Dr. Mina is here to help us simplify our skincare routines, debunk some of the biggest myths in the industry, and give us practical tips for navigating everything from skin minimalism to skin changing during menopause. We'll dive into some hot topics like creating a simple but impactful skincare routine, understanding which cosmetic treatments or ingredients are truly worth it, and the essentials of skin health that comes from within. So whether you're a skincare minimalist or a product junkie, this episode is packed with valuable insights to help you make a smarter, more effective skincare choice. Before we dive in, don't forget to subscribe to Biohacking Beauty and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Your feedback helps us bring you more of the content that you love. And remember to stick around until the end where we are going to address some questions. All right, let's get it started. All right, Dr. Mina, welcome to the Biohacking Beauty podcast.
- [02:10]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. I'm all about biohacking and skin health.
- [02:16]
Amitai Eshel
Good. Yeah. So basically I was very excited to have you on. I mean, we have a lot to cover, but maybe we will start by a little bit, like what is your journey like in the health sphere and specifically how did you get into biohacking, skin health, things like that.
- [02:33]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, well, so I've actually been a dermatologist for, or a physician for, gosh, a long time, almost two decades. And my field is dermatology and I actually do procedural dermatology and I take care of a lot of skin cancers and I do a lot of surgery. And what I notice is just, I just keep hearing a lot of my patients are older and they'll say things like, I just wish I knew, I just wish I had known how to take care of my skin to be more careful in the sun and just, I hear a lot of regret. And at least in this day and age, we don't have anything to really totally reverse a lot of those decades of sun damage. And damage to our skin, not taking care of our skin or our bodies in general. And also as I've gotten older, to be honest, I started thinking about, I'm seeing changes in my skin, changes in my body, and I don't feel my chronological age. And so I've just really gotten interested in. Not that I wanna look like I'm 25 again, but how do I keep my body as healthy as possible? And our skin is a reflection of how we take care of our body. And I think too often in this day and age, we think about skin health as the products we put on externally. And really it has to start from the inside out. And so that's kind of been my journey. Sort of in my 40s, I've really taken a much more proactive approach to my health with which I used to just kind of take it for granted and kind of burn the candles at both ends and work as hard as I could and hustle. And now I'm realizing that's not really the path to longevity and health long term.
- [04:15]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, 100%. I think that's a common thread. I see with anyone that obviously we have conversations around, like how they look, how they want to look better. It's that incongruency, that dissonance between the way that they feel on the inside, the vibrancy, or even like their self image and then what happens when they pass next to the mirror and look in the mirror or photos and things like that. Obviously that is a big part of growing older. Maybe there are some good things around that. I don't know, maybe you take yourself less seriously or life less seriously.
- [04:52]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
But I'd say confidence. I would say confidence. Right. At least that's something I've, I've had is that I'm less worried about what other people think and I'm more willing to take risk and follow my dreams. So I don't think it's all bad. But yeah, we kind of focus on the stuff we don't like and the undesirable stuff, don't we?
- [05:13]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, you mentioned like what you put in your body, but then I think a bigger or a more primal point is like our habits. Right. Like you mentioned, like burning the candle in both ends and kind of trying to, you know, push yourself to the, to the limit of how much can you work, how much can you achieve? I think, I wonder how many people realize it was their habits, their, their sleeping habits, movement habits, et cetera, that start. That basically exacerbated aging first and foremost. And then obviously, one of the habits, like what we put in our mouth.
- [05:51]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yes. Oh, totally. I think we need to really wake up and realize that plays such an important impact. Unfortunately, though, it's really hard to change habits. Right. That have been ingrained in us for decades and decades and decades. And also just our culture here in the US is, you know, work hard, hustle, hustle, and then when you're 65, you can slow down and retire. And. And I also think people are. Are saying, wait a minute. I don't really actually wanna follow that rule. I wanna live, you know, throughout my whole life and not at this, you know, arbitrary number where I may not have the health to be able to do what I wanna do.
- [06:30]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, 100%. So one of the, you know, as far as, like, what people put on their skin, one of the things that I was very intrigued and we did, we tried to speak about it a little bit as a company, but I think it's very, very good to hear it from the outside is the idea of, like, skin minimalism and how kind of what we put on our skin can be maybe too much or maybe. I would love to hear how you introduce the idea of skin minimalism, because that's one of the things that I was very excited to kind of speak with you about.
- [07:04]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, absolutely. So I think most dermatologists take this approach, and when my patients or friends or people ask me, you know, they want to know, what do you do for your skin? Or your skin looks great. You know, tell me your secrets and I'll. I'll tell them. And it's really, really basic, but it's effective and people are surprised. I think there's this notion that you have to use a lot of stuff. You have to pay a lot of money for your products. You have. You have to layer all this stuff on. And I get why people get that message, right, because you can't. I can't open my social media feed or, you know, my computer without seeing ads for all the things I need to buy, or Sephora's big sale and we're being marketed to, and these companies, they always have to sell more products, so they're always trying to hype up a new active, a new ingredient, and a lot of times you don't need that. So I will sort of go over someone's skincare and say, well, tell me what you're using. And I give this story. Once one of my friends was telling me all the products she used, and they were all for someone who has acne prone skin. And she didn't look like she had acne prone skin to me. So I asked her, do you struggle with acne? And she said no. So I was like, why are you using all these products? And she just had heard about them and thought she needed them. So I think people get overwhelmed. They hear about all these different Actives and products and they don't really know what they're for, if they really need them, but someone else is recommending it and sort. So people just use stuff without really knowing why. And a lot of times it's overkill and it actually can damage your skin barrier and make your skin worse. So it's not just ineffective, it actually can be harmful and hurtful to your skin.
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Amitai Eshel
Yeah, 100%. And you know, every Active, you know, classic Actives, we obviously, you know, as a company we try to deal with Actives that are a little bit different and target, you know, DNA expression or youthful function. But I think classically actives are stimulation and kind of directions for the skin. So if you use a lot of different direction, a lot of different, you know, inputs to the skin, it could be extremely confusing. Not only you know, for yourself to know what to use but also for your skin specifically, especially for the skin barrier that needs to, to, you know, the skin's barrier job is like to prevent things from actually entering into the skin. So if we have in every product we have, you know, a technique to bypass the skin barrier in order for, in order for it to absorb. We can create again we can create a lot of damage and even create, even within product. A lot of products are not actually formulated to work one with the other.
- [09:53]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The, the active sometimes can be inactivated by different products. People put things on in the wrong order. You need to go from thinnest to thickest, you know, serums to creams. And if you're putting on an oil based product first, then it's virtually impossible for anything else to everything else is just going to sit on the top of your skin. So yeah, keeping it simple, knowing what your skin needs. So I always say that you need to find out what your skin needs are. Are you oily, acne prone, do you have sensitive or rosacea? You know, what does your skin need? And then you need to balance it with what are your sort of goals with your skin. For some people it's like get me in and out of the bathroom in five minutes or less. And for others it's like I want to anti age, I want to prevent wrinkles and all that. So you have to balance those two things, and they're not going to be the same for everyone. Not everyone has to be as minimalistic as me. I think I'm sort of in the middle because I do want my skin to look beautiful. I do want to boost my collagen and minimize fine lines and wrinkles. But at the same time, I really can't stand putting a lot of stuff on my skin. So I'm all about the biggest bang for my buck. I want what works, what's going to help. And. And I don't like that feeling of a lot of stuff on my skin, which I know a lot of people that turns a lot of people from skin care because they just don't like that kind of greasy feel. So it's really unique to everyone. But I would just say figure out what your skin really needs and then select products based on that. And don't just buy something because a beautiful celebrity said to buy it. Yes, their skin looks amazing, but I'm willing to bet that's not the only thing they're doing if.
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Amitai Eshel
If they're even doing that.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Exactly.
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Amitai Eshel
Okay, so. So you mentioned, you know, laying applying products from thin to thickest, which is. I would hope everyone listening to this podcast knows and are not making that mistake. But what are the, like, the real common mistakes you see people do, aside from that? Is that, like, the most common or what do you see people do?
- [12:04]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
I would say using too many things is pretty common. And then not knowing what order to put them in, using a lot of products and then failing to use sunscreen is a big no. Or using like a SPF 4 or thinking the sunscreen in your makeup is going to cover it. If you're going to invest your time and your money in skin care or procedures and things like that. The number one cause of photo aging or aging of the skin is UV radiation from the sun. So if you're not going to. If you're not going to protect from the sun, then you really are wasting your time and money. So that really has to be key. I see that a lot. And then probably over exfoliating, I. I don't know where this came from, but people are go nuts over exfoliation or dry brushing, that they're just physically being too aggressive with their skin, and that can really damage your skin barrier. So if you want to exfoliate, I'd probably do it about once a week. And I would prefer chemical exfoliants. So products over actually manually scrubbing your.
- [13:13]
Amitai Eshel
Skin, I Think, you know, I think it is the medical skin care of about 25, 30, 25 to 30 years ago is when we really started to see like over exfoliation, like, you know, brands, not to name any brands, but really the medical skincare of like 25, 30 years ago is when we started to see the use of a lot of, you know, 15, 20 years ago, a lot of like physical exfoliants and shying away from that a little bit later. But it's the same companies that are a. They're really putting a skin turnover on a pedestal. Not that it. Not that again. And I'm gonna ask you about, you know, what are your staples for minim. A minimal skincare routine in a second. But I think the idea that every day we gotta do something to increase cellular turnover in the skin or, you know, multiple, you know, multiple times a day, sometimes even I think that's when. And like the mechanistic approach of more turnover is better, which I hope is, Is. Is we're kind of putting that in the, in the rearview mirror. I think that's kind of where that started because I do hear it a lot. And then I ask them kind of where. What, what skincare do you use? What kind of philosophy do you prescribe to and subscribe to? And that's kind of what most people tell me that they're doing. But to what I wanted to ask you a second ago. So what are the staples for like a minimal skincare routine? Like a minimalistic skincare routine?
- [14:45]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah. So if you want to be super, super minimal, really all you need is a cleanser. So use something gentle. Don't use antibacterial or harsh soap. So something gentle. You don't have to use a different cleanser for your face and your body. You can if you want to, but you don't have to. A gentle cleanser, a moisturizer, and, and that's going to depend if you have dry skin, you want something thicker, and then if you have oily skin, you want to probably look for something more like a lotion and then sunscreen. So that really can be the basics if you want to keep it really, really simple. Now, like I said, I'm. I'm not that basic. I do like to throw in some extras. So I think if you do want to do some extras, you are wanting to really maximize your skin health, then I would say a vitamin C serum in the morning is great, especially if you struggle with hyperpigmentation. So the dark spots on your skin, maybe you have some brown spots from the sun. This can be great. And I think it pairs really nicely with sunscreen. So you can do that. And of course in the evening using a vitamin A cream like a retinol, a retinoid. There's so much data behind this. It's, you know, something I've been using for decades. And really it's a tried and true. And if you stick with it, you will get amazing results. So that's kind of what I do. Although I will say there's a caveat. I really think something new and exciting I'm hearing a lot of, and I think you guys probably talk about it a lot on this podcast are exosomes. And there's some really cool products coming out that have exosomes and serums that you can use. And so I've actually been using that in the morning in place of my vitamin C because I don't really struggle with hyperpigmentation. And I've been really excited about that. And I think that's definitely where skincare is going and regenerative medicine and all of that. So I think that's, that's exciting and could really be a game changer. And I may have to officially proclaim that my skincare routine has changed in a few months.
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Amitai Eshel
Yeah, well, we are heavily invested in exosome research. Research. So I obviously agree with you. I think there are still issues within because it's becoming more and more popular. I think there are issues with exosomes like the most, the most basic issue is I think plant derived exosomes, which are, which are. I think it's the same thing that we experienced a few years ago with plant derived stem cells where it's a buzzword and then people are basically trying to get some money off of that buzzword. And even with human derived exosomes, because we're so early in the industry of exosomes in skincare. We still are hearing about companies that, you know, say, oh yeah, we have exosomes. And then when these are scrutinized, there really aren't any exosomes in them or there is a very low amount. So I'm very interested to see where this industry is going to be like five years the specifically exosomes. But I think this is part of the future. I totally agree with you. I think there are very interesting products coming out, you know, not only with us. Like I, I met a company that, that are doing bovine exosomes actually and are able to program the information within them. So that's going to be very Interesting to see how that that comes out. So exosomes is great. Vitamin C, obviously, is also great. A lot of people that use only, you know, vitamin A, they don't realize, which are retinols, retinoids, et cetera. And they don't realize that in order to create collagen.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah.
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Amitai Eshel
Vitamin C is a coenzyme for that process. So a lot of people, in order to get the best results out of their vitamin A's, they want to use vitamin C to some extent. Right. To kind of to fuel that.
- [18:45]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yes, absolutely. And I just want to go back to what you were talking about with exosomes. You are 100% right. And you know, I hesitate to even bring that up. Right. Because it is, it's kind of the wild, wild west, especially with regenerative medicine. They're really great companies doing great work and doing the research with real scientists on board. And there are companies that are just trying to sell snake oil and, and it's a load of, of garbage and they don't have data. So, yeah, I would just say yes, it's buyer beware. Right now you really need to make sure, if you are getting a product with exosomes, make sure you, you know, dig into it a little bit because they're usually expensive and you want to make sure that it's legit and you're not just paying a couple hundred dollars for a moisturizer. So I totally agree. This is an area where there's unfortunately a lot of. I think we'll be seeing a lot of like, gimmicks and things like that. So you do have to be careful. And, you know, if someone's telling you they're going to inject exosomes, you should run the other way. They're not approved for that at this point. But yeah, I really am excited to see where this goes. I do think this is the future or one of the components of the future. And it's an exciting time.
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Amitai Eshel
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I got exosomes injected into me about the last, last a 4m last actually a year ago. But you're right that they are, that these are, these are not approved to be injected. Even companies that are, that are selling it in order to be injected are using lingo that kind of skirts around the idea they're selling it as a cosmetic product, which then it's, it is being injected. So you're, you're correct. The part of the problem with exosomes, and, and right now, really, no company is picking up the glove that's why it's taking us forever to come out with our Exosome product is because Exosomes really are a carrier. It's almost like saying like, liposomes, right. Like, obviously it's not the same, but imagine you're taking, you know, liposomal. That's, that's the supplement you're taking. Liposomal. It could be so many things. Right again, Vitamin C. It could be whatever.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah.
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Amitai Eshel
But we really don't know what's in it. And that is part of the problem with Exosomes that all of the skin, even, even companies that are, I'll say, like a great company, like plated, I think they're doing a great job. Or out of, you know, other companies that are more, you know, again, more medical, like, like Chimera Labs or Viti Labs or anything like that, doing a fantastic job. But they are not showing us testing as far as like what is inside the exosomes. And that is, I feel like going to be. That's what we're aiming to do. That's why it's taking a long time. And you need to do it every batch, basically.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah.
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Amitai Eshel
In order to show the end user what they are really getting. Is it exosomal, you know, whether. How, what are, what are the growth factors there? Or inflammatory cytokines or any kind of renewal signal that. That is conveyed within that Exosome. We really need to understand what is going on there. That's why I got excited by that bovine company, which I'm blanking on the name, because they are kind of directing it to one area. There is another company in hair care that's called Kalisim or something like that that have a specific Exosome which they are saying, hey, that is for hair growth, to be honest with you, then look really into it and how truthful their claims are. But at least there is a conversation behind, hey, Exosome is the carrier vehicle. Here is what we're trying to do with it. Here is what supposedly is in it. And I think again, the next stage is testing and transparency. And that's where I feel.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, yeah. And you're exactly right. Exosome, it's become a buzzword. Right. But Exosome is just an envelope. It's the message ins side that matters. But people just say, oh, this product has Exosome. Well, I mean, the, the message could be have cancer. The message could be inflammation. Right? So you got to be. You got to be careful. The message needs to be grow hair. And actually, I was just talking with some of the plated people. I, I do believe they, their hair product actually does have exosomes for the WNT pathway and beta catena. And so. But you're 100% right. Like, we do need transparency. I'm not telling people to out and, and just go buy any product out there. This is still developing, but this really is like front line.
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Amitai Eshel
So it's 100%. Yeah, you're right. It's called, it's, it's much. Saying envelope is much easier. Easier than saying endoplasmic reticulum. It's gonna, it's gonna be a much easier word to remember. But yeah, for sure. This is a very exciting field. I, again, I am very excited to see what's going on with it in, in, you know, a year, two years, five years again. The FDA is also very interested. So let's see what's going on there.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
That's right.
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Amitai Eshel
Hey there.
- [23:54]
This is Amitai, co founder and CEO of Young Goose and host of the Biohacking Beauty Podcast. I wanted to take a brief moment to share something really special with you, our dedicated listeners. At Young Goose. We've always been about more than just skincare. We are about cellular care. We believe in not just addressing the signs, but truly diving into the very source of skin aging. The reality is, as time goes on, our skin undergoes damage and this damage accumulates gradually, leading to those signs of aging we all see and know very well. But what if we could hit the rewind button? What if we could delve deep, not into the layers of the skin, but into the life sustaining mechanisms of our skin cells? That's exactly what we're doing at Young Oops. We're pioneering a renaissance in skincare by employing principles from regenerative medicine. By rejuvenating and restoring the cellular functions, our products aim to rewind time, gifting your skin a youthful, vibrant glow. And for our Biohacking Beauty listeners, we have a special treat. Head over to yonghoos.com right now and use the code PODCAST10 to get 10% off your first purchase. Discover the magic of truly transformative skincare. And hey, because we value our returning customers just as much, use podcast five on your subsequent purchases to get 5% off. And the best part, that this cant discount can be combined with subscriptions and our already discounted systems. So why wait? Dive deep into the realm of regenerative skincare with Yungoos and let your skin. Thank you. Remember, it's not just skin care, it's cellular care. And now back to our conversation.
- [26:01]
Let's talk, you know, we talked a little bit about the field of exosomes. What. What's going on here? Snake oil. Buyer beware. Let's help, you know, listeners navigate skincare marketing a little bit. Like, what do you think are the biggest skincare myths you frequently, you know, encounter?
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, gosh, I have a podcast, and I've had a bunch of dermatologists who also have skincare companies on and also just other skincare companies. And it's a world, you know, I'm not in that world, but it's just really interesting to hear it. But as a dermatologist, and I see what people are gravitating to buying, I think there's this myth that natural is better. And to people, natural means like, DIY or using food as skincare. And what people don't realize is so many of the products we use, like retinoids. Like the word retinoid. I know that doesn't sound natural, but retinoic acid is incredibly natural, and it's a part of our body and our cells. So I think just because it sounds like chemistry or science, it doesn't mean that it's not natural. In fact, you know, I'll joke that Botox is natural because Botox is a great example of where people, you. They realize that clostridium, which is a type of bacteria, had this toxin, and they had tried to use this toxin even in warfare and things like that were unsuccessful. But then they realized that they could actually purify it injected into muscles. And people who had eye problems called.
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Amitai Eshel
Yes, it was for. It was for children, actually, which is crazy.
- [27:40]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah. And so when. Actually, this is a funny story. One of the people who helped really take Botox to where it is when she stopped using it, she would tell her patients, oh, your strabismus is improved. We don't need to do any more Botox injections. And the people would say, no, but I want. I want it. I want it. And she'd say, well, why? Said, because I no longer have those frown lines anymore. Those. I never. I don't look angry anymore. And that was when sort of the light bulb went off. Like, wait a minute. If it works to relax the muscles around the eyes and it's also relaxing the muscles here, you know, what else can we use it for? So, you know, maybe you don't want to do Botox because the concept of, you know, not frowning is unnatural to you, but technically, this is an example of using nature as medicine. So I think just because it sounds like it came or it came from a lab, doesn't mean it's not natural or that using pure olive oil is better because a lot of these products, they've been purified, they've been stuck, studied. We can safely scale them. You know, if everyone. You can't just take an orange and rub it on your face and say, I'm going to get L. Ascorbic acid. Right. And, and then expect everyone to grow all these like, orange groves for that. Right. So instead we're able to pull out the compound that really gives us the bang for the buck and, and expand upon it. And, and also we're able to mix chemicals and ingredients together in the right ratio so they're effective. So I think there's this notion of just natural, like buying the moisturizer at the farmer's market that, you know, the local, you know, farmer put together is, is better than what you get at a store. And that's. It's really not the case. Yes. I think the concept of natural, I love that too. Right. I mean, I think we all want natural. We all. But I think it's been distorted a little bit.
- [29:32]
Amitai Eshel
I think so too. I actually call it clean washing. It's when you say something is clean and then apparently I'll tell you a couple of things. So we are, maybe half of the people listening to us know us from. Is like from Equinox, right. Because we're in. We're like the flagship product for Equinox. So that, but that has been a long, long road. You know, Equinox takes their time. So like two years ago we were at this kind of like this meeting where Equinox was evaluating different companies. And as you can see, I'm pretty open. I root for other brands as well and I love to see other brands succeed because they started like us. And there was this one lady, very cool product design. And then I start the conversation and the sales lady there of this brand, she couldn't. I wasn't trying to be difficult. I was very interested to hear what she has to say about the brand. And all she kept saying is, is it was vegan. Well, I appreciate that, but that does not, not tell me anything about the actual product. That's. I call clean washing. When you, when you tell me that the product's good because everything that it doesn't have, that is, that is where I think there is a dissonance. So. And the same people that would be, that would be gravitating towards that farmer's product, for that matter, are also terrified of mold. Well, these products have mold guaranteed. So, you know, you have moisture, you have humidity. You have a product that's going to sit in your cabinet, you're going to get mold. If you're not.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Without preservatives.
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Amitai Eshel
Yeah. Without something. Right. Without something to handle that, whatever that is, it could be ozone. You know what? I'll go, I'll be very natural, but it has to have something. So, So I agree with you 100%. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So, so the, the gravitation towards natural.
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Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Well, and, and yeah, I clean. Right. Like that. It's such a buzzword. And, and I, I, I don't think there's a company out there if you want to sell your product. You gotta, it's like, you gotta jump on the bandwagon, right? And we use that word for everything. You know, people say, oh, are you eating clean? Are you, you know, using clean products? And we're like, well, no one wants dirty products. Right. But it's really a marketing term. There's not a universal meaning for it. Everyone's got a different meaning. And, and people want to, you know, they hear the word preservative and they think, oh, my gosh, a preservative, that sounds awful. But do you know what preservatives do? They actually keep your product from growing mold and mildew and bacteria. And you don't want to be putting that on an open wound or your skin at all. So there has to be a balance. And I wish people would trust the experts in skin and skin scientists and chemists and people who really are knowledgeable in this and let them work their zone of genius. You know, that's not my zone. But let them put together safe, effective skin care for us. And let's not cancel things because it's trendy or popular or we want something that's all natural or vegan, but we don't even really know what that means.
- [32:52]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, and I will even prove your point, because we tried. We are that brand. Like, we are the brand who said, you know what? We are not getting through. So what we try to do is we try to say, hey, you're interested in a product that does not disrupt your hormonal balance, does not disrupt, you know, skin homeostasis, whatever that is. We're going to test that. Every product that we came out with, we tested, you know, we, it went through the wringer. We test. We published a few studies around, you know, hormonal balance doesn't disrupt. Hormonal balance doesn't disrupt Skin homeostasis doesn't disrupt skin barrier, et cetera. No one cares. Why? Because that's not the education they got. The education that they got is a much more simple education. It's like if I scan it with my app, what results do I get? And the app is like any business, it needs to fail some and not fail others. Right. So you mentioned retinol and that's a story that I. And so to finish the story, we said, okay, suit yourself. At the end of the day, we try to change as many people's skin as we can and educate people around longevity. And if we're missing people along the way, then we have to adjust that. That's, that's the name of the game. And we went and other projects, whether it is exosomes, whether it is crazier things like, you know, specific genes that were affecting with a skincare line that's going to come out in the future had to be put on hold. And for a year and a half we developed a clean preservative system. By the way, it's still a preservative system, but it's clean. Right. So at the end of the day, that consumer, we are delaying our service to consumer because we had to do this. But other companies, if they don't have preservatives, I don't think any company doesn't have a preservative. By the way. I think if you have a product, I think you are getting lied to. I think what we're going to discover that a lot of brands that are claiming that they're clean once there's going to be more stringent regulation from the FDA as far as what they put on their label. We're going to find out that they actually were lying, that they do have, you know, a lot of preservatives in them. They just don't, don't report it. That's really, that's my opinion.
- [35:13]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah. Or yeah, I mean, you know, obviously more about the skin care, you know, formulations and all that and workings than I do. But I was amazed too. Not every skincare company will do testing for bacteria and growth and in their products. And I was really, really surprised when one of my friends who has a skincare company told me that. So, yeah, yeah, there's there, it's not a medication. Right. This is not FDA regulated like our prescriptions. And it, it's, you know, again, I would go with companies that you trust and that are doing the science behind it and not just pandering to what's trending or getting approval from certain clean companies.
- [35:58]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, I agree. So, yeah, There is a 40 week incubation period the FDA requires you to do before you release a product to the market. It needs to be in the bottle that's going to be in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I know, as a matter of fact, because most of our money comes from R and D for other companies that most companies are so eager to get a product out or they have some deadline that they've set, they're like, oh, do the incubation while we're doing everything, we're going to release the product, let us know if something happened. You know, things like that. Yeah, it's very uncommon to find a company that is married to the idea of testing, quite frankly.
- [36:41]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Wow. That's, that's crazy. Crazy to hear.
- [36:44]
Amitai Eshel
And by the way, I'm talking about like the big. Some of the biggest companies in the world.
- [36:49]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Wow.
- [36:49]
Amitai Eshel
So biggest skincare myths, is it mainly the natural and clean or do you see other ones?
- [36:55]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Well, I think people will get on this sort of bandwagon and like cancel. Parabens have been like, you know, you know, they're, they're dead. Anyone who uses parabens, good luck selling that product. Even though there has been no scientific causality with this and it's being used for over 100 years, what we are seeing in dermatology is that a lot of these newer preservatives are not without risk and that they have a lot of contact dermatitis and irritant dermatitis when they're used. But I think the issue nowadays is we don't have a lack of information. We almost have like information overload. And because it is so easy for anyone to get a microphone, get their camera and broadcast to the world whatever they want, there's a lot of misinformation out there. There are a lot of people who aren't skin experts putting out information and a lot of celebrities who have very large followings putting out information that's just not true, that's false. And unfortunately, this is what gets picked up and gets propagated and spread. And so the whole thing about sunscreen causes cancer and all of that is frustrating because I see the patients struggling with skin cancer and it breaks my heart to see especially younger people refusing to put sunscreen on their children or getting burns because I know what their future is going to look like if they continue down that path. So just, I think the spread of misinformation, it's just so Easy nowadays. And it's just so hard to take back. And people just don't want to believe the experts in that area. I'm not sure why we're more inclined to believe someone with a lot of followers or celebrity status than, you know, a PhD or scientist or physician or someone who's spent their life studying something.
- [38:46]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, I mean, I can, look, I can understand why if you like someone and you see them talking about anything and you've, you've tried, you know, a recipe that they did and it's really good or, or a workout or whatever, like their shoes, you like their, you like their abs, you know, you like whatever it is, you like their messaging. We are all guilty.
- [39:12]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah.
- [39:12]
Amitai Eshel
In giving into our biases. Right. Like, I get it. And I also know, as a matter of fact, there are people with PhDs that are not. That have biases as well. So I can understand that too. But at the end of the day, you know, what they are counting on is that these people have some commitment. Like celebrities have some commitment to their aura, to their clout, to their reputation. But, you know, what they're doing is that they are also whatever advice they're giving you and then you're going and buying that product, they're also monetizing their reputation and that in and on its own. I know, as a matter of fact, that when celebrities, we have a lot of celebrities who use our product when we ask them, hey, can you, can we use, you know, can we, can we talk about it? First of all, they always want money, but they don't want money. And they're telling you, hey, let me do my research. Let me make sure what you're saying is 100% correct. And no, it doesn't work like that. Right.
- [40:19]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah.
- [40:19]
Amitai Eshel
They are like, yeah, show me the money and you can do whatever you want. So everyone cares about their reputation, at least in the same way. And I would argue people that, that have dedicated their life to a specific area probably care about their reputations more than a doctor that likes to eat only steaks or something like that, you know, but no offense, probably these people have reputations to maintain, too. But we've seen a lot of people. We've seen, you know, people like the liver King guy, right. Like saying, oh, yeah, I only eat liver and stuff like that. But no, he apparently injects all the steroids in the world and maybe, maybe still is a very nice guy. Benefit of the doubt. I've never met him. I've actually heard good things about him. But I've never met him, but he doesn't care about his reputation more than someone who dedicated, you know, 12 years educating themselves on a specific area and is trying to make a difference in the world. So I agree with you.
- [41:15]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, yeah. And you're a good point about, you know, I, I'll tell people like, if you're watching something like what's their angle? If they're telling you, you know, don't do this for your acne, do this. And then it's like, you know, click here to buy. You know, they, they are incentivized. Right. To make you want to use that and not this. So just you have to be a smart consumer nowadays and pretty savvy because that, you know, most people have an angle and, and there's nothing wrong with promoting something. And, and I've promoted things like I truly believe in, but I'm also sent stuff daily about, oh, will I promote this or be a sponsor for this? And, and it's hard to say no because you're like, I'm turning all this down. But if you don't really, if I don't really believe in it, I don't want to put my name on that. And yeah, to your point, not, not everyone, I guess, cares about that or you know, everyone has a price.
- [42:09]
Amitai Eshel
You're the only one, let me say. Oh, no, no, yeah, I agree.
- [42:15]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah. You just, you have to be careful. And, and, and even if I am promoting something you, you know, doesn't mean it's right for you necessarily. Right. Yeah, it's so you take it with a grain of salt for what it is, 100%.
- [42:28]
Amitai Eshel
And, and you know, it's so, it's so different from a person to person. I just was reading this incredible article, you mentioned acne. I was reading this incredible article, this incredible study from Crown and they were talking about the fact that they applied. So, so most people know P. Acne bacteria. It's very, very common bacteria to talk about. But there is other acne associated bacteria. One of them is C. Acnes and they applied C. Acnes bacteria really like billions of bacteria. So people that are not acne prone and not a lot happened and people that obviously are acne prone, they, they found out that if they kind of kill C. Acnes, it doesn't mean it goes back. It becomes better over time, obviously. And that the reaction is more the reaction of the immune system of the individual to what's going on with their, with their obviously skin microbiome rather than just the skin microbiome and us Kind of forcibly, like adjusting. And we are closing a loop to the first thing that we talked about in the beginning. But it's. It's about what you eat, you know, what, how you sleep, blah, blah and everything. But also, you know, it's about when you get recommended something it worked for that maybe worked for that person. It doesn't mean it's going to work for you at all.
- [43:50]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Right.
- [43:51]
Amitai Eshel
Especially. So another issue that I actually wanted to talk with you about, and that's something that's near and dear to our heart because we get a lot of questions around it, which is, you know, skin care, but skin changes during menopause, you know, perimenopause and menopause, which is something not a lot of people talk about.
- [44:09]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah. Just to let you know, I do have a hard stop at three, but yeah. So I do feel like there's this movement of women who are menopausal and postmenopausal who are. Who are saying, enough already. We aren't just going to like fade into the background anymore. So I'm seeing, I'm. And maybe it's. What is it, like, confirmation bias? Because I keep seeing it because I'm looking for it. But I do think this is an area we are going to see tremendous growth and research in because there's really been a none for decades. And women who are perimenopausal, menopausal and beyond are saying, wait a minute, I'm not just gonna be forgotten about. My skin has needs too. And let's actually study this. But we do know as estrogen plummets to virtually nothing, we have estrogen receptors all throughout our body, including our skin, and it contributes to loss of collagen, like a persistent precipitous drop in collagen to where women feel like their face just falls overnight. Dryness, our skin barrier cannot hold onto hydration as well. So all of these things happen during menopause. Also, you have bone resorption and changes in, you know, how you process foods and fat distribution in our body. And so lots of changes going on in our skin and really our whole body. So I think there's going to be a lot of research into this that women are ready for and looking at estrogen cream being used on the skin. So this is an exciting area and I'm glad to see this group of women being focused on because they do have unique skin needs.
- [45:52]
Amitai Eshel
So, yeah, fantastic. And I want to be cognizant of your time. So we're. Let's. So do you think like a 2% estradiol cream is like the answer for that or do you think it's a bit more complicated than that?
- [46:05]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Well, I am very, I mean, women have been using their vaginal estrogen cream on their faces, their hands, their arms for, for decades. Right. Even though it says vaginal cream and we know that it is very effective in or improving dryness in the vaginal area, that it also improves, decreases the chance of urinary tract infections. And so we just, I'm sure we'll be seeing more studies showing the effectiveness on the skin. I don't think it's going to be necessarily just that one thing that's going to solve. I do think it's got a potential to improve hydration and moisturization, boost collagen. And so far studies have not shown that there's any systemic absorption. So if you're unable to take, if you're unable to have the patch, then using the cream would be a good alternative. And in fact you can use both.
- [46:57]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Is, are there any other ingredients that are particularly beneficial for menopausal skin or.
- [47:03]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Is it, you know, so I would. You can still use the same routine you've been doing, but you're just going to need to maximize hydration with your moisturizer. You're probably going to really need to up that. If you are on hormone replacement, that does seem to help. And then there, there are procedures and things that can help as well. But I would say this is where really taking care of your body matters and if you can take care of it before, before you even get into menopause, before you have that muscle loss, before you have that bone resorption, even better. So, you know, someone listing might be in their 20s, 30s or 40s thinking this, I've got time. This isn't me. But, but really that's the time to really start with those habits to get your body in tip top shape to. Then you will have an easier time, typically during menopause.
- [47:55]
Amitai Eshel
Amen. That's why we trademarked the saying prejuvenation.
- [47:59]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Absolutely.
- [47:59]
Amitai Eshel
That's the best prejuvenation. Anyway. Dr. Mina, thank you very much. That was great. We should do that again. Where can people learn more, find more, you know, kind of expose themselves to your wealth of knowledge more?
- [48:14]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Yeah, absolutely. This was a lot of fun too. We'll have to do part two.
- [48:18]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:18]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
But I'm, I'm at Dr. Mina Skin on all social media feeds. I have a podcast called the Skin skinreel and if you're interested in. I had talked about earlier pairing your skin care needs with your goals to get your habits. I can send you a free PDF if you go to theskinreal.com forward slash habits.
- [48:38]
Amitai Eshel
Fantastic. Okay, we're gonna have everything in the show. Notes. That was really good. I really enjoyed it. Thank you everyone. We'll see you here next time. Bye.
- [48:46]
Dr. Mary Alice Mina
Thanks so much.
- [48:52]
Amitai Eshel
Well, I really enjoyed this Episode. Episode with Dr. Mina. I think it is really good to bring different perspectives. We see very professional perspectives to your ears and eyes. If you're looking at us through video and ears, if you're only listening to us, I think it's, I think this is what an educated consumer needs, such as people who listen to this podcast. So sometimes we're going to have people who tell you skin minimalism is the way to go and sometimes we're going to talk about very, very extensive routines as we do in some podcasts. We are taking the time to answer a few questions. So we kept, I kept a few questions that are, that are going on around the usage of devices in skincare and also a question about exosomes, because that also got brought up in this podcast. So a lot of people asked us because of certain, because of the last episode we had, as I'm recording this, that we had with Jamie McGuire about this treatment or this device or that device. And I wanted to give a very large, like a broad stroke of an answer. Many people are looking at devices, looking at treatments such as, you know, Morpheus 8, which is a microneedling radio frequency, or Ulthera or Thermi, it's an older product, or, you know, CO2 laser or 4D lift, which is by Fotona, okay? They're looking at them as a way to prevent or to replace plastic surgery. So this is where I am coming from first and foremost. Okay, Is one radio frequency treatment going to destroy your face? Probably not. It's not going to do much good, but it's not going to destroy your face. Okay. If you've done some, don't worry about it. But the addiction to them to, to kind of prevent the need for plastic surgery is misleading. They are never going to give you anything close to what plastic surgery does. And the attempt to do that to get significant results and not, I don't know, really there are no great results with them. But the attempts to get significant results that replace a facelift, that is a double crime. Not by you, but by the person who is doing that treatment, number one. Because if you are at an age where you're thinking about plastic surgery, you are not going to recover well from those treatments. Collagen is a nice buzzword, but collagen is actually plural. There are different types of collagen and the balance between these different types of collagen determines if you have nice bouncy quality type collagen or a scar tissue. The balance between those collagens, scar tissue is no less collagen than a healthy collagen that is expressed in a youthful looking skin. It's just a different balance. So when you are stimulating collagen production by a foreign wave, temperature or ingredient, like hyaluronic acid for example, or threads, okay, what you are doing is you are creating scar tissue because you're creating stimulation that was not there before, that your body needs to respond to. And if you are not at an optimal age for your body to create optimal Collagen, you are 99.9% of the time creating scar tissue or imbalance of those collagens. Okay, that's as far as that. So when you're asking us about different names of devices, Google them, see if it says, you know, ultrasound, radio frequency, thermal, anything that says thermal, radio frequency microneedling, they're all not a good idea. Having said that, people asked, hey, but what about microneedling without the thermal effect? So that's great, you definitely want to do that. This, this, this is a different issue. Okay, but we're talking about thermal or waves that create damage to the tissue and then the tissue needs to recover. That's as far as that. Another question was about exosomes. A lot of, a lot of people, hundreds of people have been asking us to make an exosome product. And some people have been asking us, hey, can you know, should I use an exosome product? Together with young goose regimen. And the answer is, unfortunately, right now, the reason we are, you know, for the last two years have been doing exosome research is not because, you know, we can go to any of the hundreds of labs that offer exosomes, buy exosomes, shove it into the cream. We wouldn't know what's there, you wouldn't know what's there. But we're going to be able to say that we have exosome products that does not, in and on its own, will not create any results in your skin. And if anyone has ever used exosome products, they will know that their skin actually became drier. And that is because there are ingredients, there are functions within those exosomes that the information within them has basically caused an imbalance in your skin barrier. So for now, there is no Exosome products that we can recommend. And unless a company is going to come and say, hey, this is here is the list of or the percentages or the ratio of growth factors. These are the different growth factors. This is what they do that their Exosome products have, we will not be able to recommend it because of that. Okay? So sit tight. I don't know who's going to do it first, us or a different company, but when it's going to show up, you're going to know about it. All right? So thank you everyone and we'll see you here next time. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a review on Apple Podcast. It really helps us reach more people, educate more people, contribute to people's skin health more and more. And we appreciate it. Thank you.