← Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Jamie McGuire: What If the Real Problem Isn’t Your Skin... But Your Protocol?
01:02:12
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- [00:07]
Amitai
All right, Jamie, welcome back.
- [00:09]
Jamie
Thanks. I'm happy to be here.
- [00:11]
Amitai
Yeah. So last time we. We spoke, it was actually kind of before. Before you. We. We started, you know, working with each other before you started carrying the line. So now it's kind of like a. Like a sequel. Right?
- [00:24]
Jamie
Yeah.
- [00:24]
Amitai
So we've been working together for a while and, you know, working with you. What is very interesting to me is your decision making. You seem to have. I mean, we, first of all, we get approached by people in conferences, things like that. Hey, you know, I'm getting coached by Jamie or my protocols are. They call it Jamie Ann normally. I don't know. I'm calling you Jamie.
- [00:47]
Jamie
This is the situation I have now because I have called my brand Jamie Anesthetics for so long. So now people approach me and they say, are you Jamie Ann? And it's like, I just might as well, you know, go with it. My middle name.
- [01:02]
Amitai
Yeah, yeah. But what's interesting to me is they all have. It seems that they all have a very personalized understanding, an understanding of their. Their skin, their personal needs, et cetera, which I can tell you at a scale is very difficult to do. So it's very interesting to me the way that you. You do. It's actually very inspiring. So maybe we can start with when you do consultations, online consultations, how do you assess skin? What's your intake process like?
- [01:37]
Jamie
Well, I have them fill out a form ahead of time. So that kind of gives me a rounded idea because the consultations themselves are pretty quick. And some people understand this concept, and some people are like, wait, don't you need to see my skin in person? Or do you need me to send you pictures? And I really don't, because a lot of things are going to fall into specific categories. And a lot of times people's misconceptions and perceptions of their skin is not quite accurate. So I like to get a lot deeper. There's so much more detail involved. So if somebody, if they're riddled with acne, okay, we're riddled with acne. I don't need to see a photo of that. You're going to tell me, going to ask you questions. So the intake form happens. I, you know, review it before we get on the call, and I have a good idea of exactly where we're going to focus the conversation. And I get right into it. So it's like, okay, so your goals seem to be like, you know, a lot of people are going to say the same things anti aging, you know, less breakouts heel scarring. I get. I have patterns, a lot of patterns of similar ones. I have a category basically that is unrealistic expectations, which is everybody's role in the consultation form. So depending on how heavy that portion is for them will depend on how the conversation goes. So that part is in everybody's form. It's anti aging. Get rid of wrinkles, get rid of hyperpigmentation, get rid of melasma. These things that are not actually realistic, no matter what. I prefer prescribed. Yeah, we talk about this. So there's that section of it. But furthermore, it goes into diet, background, what you're using currently, daily routine, what your diet is for like at least the last three days. Like, give me kind of a background of how you eat, supplements, history with birth control, history with any type of internal testing or autoimmune issues. Like, I need to know all of those things going into it which play a role in everything. So it's not so much like seeing skin, feeling skin. It's this conversation and this bulk understanding that gives me a more rounded out idea of exactly what we should be focused on. And this is how I get specific with people. So let's say somebody says, you know, I have. I want to reduce wrinkles, but I also have breakouts. My skin super sensitive, and I also have leftover acne scars. There's sections that will take this in. And what I tell them, it's like, we're not going to hit everything all at once right now. We're not going to address every single thing. What I'm going to tell you is what is priority. So if you're still dealing with a lot of breakouts and we still have to also consider that you have sensitive skin, we have to approach it with, okay, how do we get the breakouts under control first? That's the first part. But also taking into consideration that you're sensitive. So how hard are we going to, you know, address this? Like, how strong is going to be? So there's that portion. Then we go straight into the diet. Because the breakouts are going to be correlated with the diet and what their lifestyle is, stress. A lot of people get very honest about their life in those forms where it's like they're dealing with, you know, some recent trauma, some, you know, I have a lot of women recently with miscarriage issues.
- [04:51]
Amitai
Wow.
- [04:52]
Jamie
You know, so there are hormones. There's a lot going on.
- [04:54]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [04:55]
Jamie
I will be very honest and raw with them where I'm going to say, this is where you need to focus. I don't care about your skincare right now. Yeah, you just had a few miscarriages back to back. You not only have emotional stress and trauma, your body has emotional stress and trauma. Your hormones are completely on a roller coaster. It doesn't matter what I put on your skin. Focus here first. And these are the things and I do a lot of like recommendations for in my opinion what should be before any essential, you know, diet even and skincare is the, you know, nervous system work. We are putting this on the back burner so often, myself included. And I know all this stuff. Like how many times a day do I go and regroup, do a little meditation, do a little, you know, breath work session. I don't, unless I actually am getting really worked up and physically have like a issue and then I focus on it. But it should be an everyday practice to keep that regulated. That's like the first step that I'm.
- [05:54]
Amitai
Looking at new people that I think, I think you specifically, it's, it's, you have things so, so first of all, yourself, you know, you've, you've moved from the center of stress of this stress universe, I mean, to a much more calm lifestyle. And you know, the way, like it's very interesting because the way you've set up your life, just like the decision making you've had along the way, even like going from in person practice to online, it's like all of it is, is kind of okay, how do I improve my relationship with my reactive relationship with life. Right. And I think what's interesting is you mentioned, hey, you know, if you have issues like acne or skin sensitivity, we don't even want to speak to the skin right now. And that's, and then you mentioned immediately diet and I think most people are not aware how like their gut is. And then the gut affecting their immune system, you know, manifests itself in, in, in, in the skin. Like really your. Most people that have reaction to things that they shouldn't have reactions to, as far as topically, you gotta fix the gut and through the gut, the reactive immune system like before, before you do.
- [07:11]
Jamie
Anything, it's very rarely the products. And I say it's the products. I'm sorry, it's the person, not the products. So that's a harsh thing to say because a lot of people are going to see a reaction from a product and assume that it's the same. And what they don't understand sometimes is if you have a actual reaction to a product that will be immediate, it will be all over and it will be a specific thing. So it'll be burning sensation, redness, you know, inflammation. Like there's a whole thing that is a reaction when something pops up weeks later and you correlate it to the product. It's something underlying that's going on that's having that response, not reaction to the product. So again, going back to kind of the consultation, it is ways that I have to address these things with clients. So you know, when, especially when they have acne sensitivity, anti aging, get rid of wrinkles, get rid of melasma in one, you know, concern and goal. We're not going to be worried about all that kind of stuff all at once. The anti aging will come later because guess what? When your skin gets healthy, the side effect to that is anti aging benefits all around. So yeah, and a lot of times people will also look at their diet and say, you know, I'm eating really healthy. And they have, they've been doing animal based or they've been doing carnivore and you know, things still aren't getting better. And they don't quite understand that that's not always the medicine. So I wish that it could be. And it sometimes is for certain people. Yeah, sometimes it's underlying conditions. So no matter what diet you're piling on top, if you don't fix the bottom line, then you're not really fixing it ever. And especially if you've never been tested. And a lot of them have been, but it's all, you know, standard testing. It's just going to their primary care, getting blood work. None of that's going to really show what exactly is going on in their gut. They're not focused on specific markers and levels for them as an individual. They're just kind of put in a category and grouped together. So I explain all this to people and try and give them a better understanding of a where I think it's more important to invest versus if I don't sell skincare, in my opinion, I don't want to help people fix their health and fix their skin. The skincare is support. It's there because it can show you and, and heal and create these goals that you have. But it, it's so much further down the line. Like you have described back in the day when you said you have to be like the Tom Brady of skincare. It's like, yeah, you'll get there, but you have to actually build the foundation first. And it all starts with all the other stuff. And you realize that you just want me to fix your problem by giving you bunch of products. And I don't feel morally right giving products to people or recommending products people that I feel like if you don't do this stuff first, none of the products are going to matter. It doesn't law.
- [09:50]
Amitai
So yeah, it's like a dentist doesn't sell toothpaste, you know, but, but they're going to tell you you need toothpaste and you need to use it regularly, right?
- [09:58]
Jamie
Yeah. So I, I have these deep conversations with these women. Really get super honest and transparent. I explain also that this is a longevity thing. This is not for me to give you a protocol to just test out and if you want to, you have, you know, every right to do so and I'll, I'm happy to guide you along the way. However, if you test something out for three to six months to nine months, you're and you switch to something else. We have no idea what those products really can highlight and do down the line. Yeah, as the, and again, I kind of use myself an example. It's like I've been doing this for 16 plus years. I haven't skipped a beat. I have stayed on top of my skincare. I've been with the best and most amazing, most active products. I am constantly evolving it and I, and on top of it, all of my dietary stuff, you know, things like not drinking anymore, things like not doing Botox, like it's a whole thing that have come over years of time and people are not, women specifically are not realistic about this. They want something to fix their problem in three months, not even in a month. I get so many follow up emails and I've already explained this to them where they're like, so it's been a couple months and I'm really not seeing any changes or improvements. Of course you're not, are you, are you kidding? It's going to take a very long time. And either you're in it and I'm in it with you and you understand that and we're going to have great skin years to come and long term or you're not going to understand that. You're going to keep bouncing around because you see, you know, a shiny new toy or glass skin over here or Korean skincare over there and it's like, I can't help those. I can't.
- [11:36]
Amitai
You see Brad Pitt saying, yeah, I really like the skincare line that I made and I don't know how to pronounce exactly, but you know, so I get a lot of questions from men around Brad Pitt's. Skincare line.
- [11:48]
Jamie
So I bet. So it's like a perfect. I think it's like the biohacking skincare I think is great for the unit. You know, like it works for both you.
- [12:00]
Amitai
You would think. But it's crazy. And that I think is it's actually, you know. Please correct me if you have a different experience because it's just my experience. It seems that it's. That men oriented skincare wasn't born. Obviously. Obviously there is no difference between men and women's skin. Men's skin is thicker because of more testosterone. But in general the active ingredients are going to be the same. I am thinking, I think men oriented skincare, like skincare for men started because companies, and probably like huge companies like you know, like Nivea or whatever understood that they can, that they can sell another product to an, to a household. Like it wasn't born from men wanting a different skin care from, you know, from their, their wife anywhere. Their wife probably is the one that told them to use skin here to begin with. It's just they did Nivea or whatever. Nivea, by the way, I have no idea if they even have skincare for me. Okay. Exactly. But like bigger companies are like, okay, we have to get more products into the vanity.
- [13:14]
Jamie
It's possible. There's other, the. There's also the other side. I'm going to take myself as an example.
- [13:19]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [13:19]
Jamie
When I'm trying to formulate the like few little products that I'm trying to make myself. I.
- [13:25]
Amitai
Which we're very proud of you that.
- [13:27]
Jamie
You'Re doing nothing compared to.
- [13:30]
Amitai
No, no, no. They are, they are. They are what?
- [13:32]
Jamie
They are as simple as possible. Because I am trying to find something that lazy men, you know, because they're not going to do what women do as far as the skincare regimen. Like they can absolutely use a few products. They're usually going to steal your life. Which is already irritating.
- [13:49]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [13:49]
Jamie
I would love to have something that. Because I just base it on Tyson, on my boyfriend. He just, he barely does anything every day. I have to force him to even put on my one product because I mean my test subject.
- [14:00]
Amitai
Yes.
- [14:01]
Jamie
How to find. Because here's the thing with men is they don't want shine.
- [14:05]
Amitai
Yes.
- [14:06]
Jamie
Glossy gloss skin. So the hydration factor plus some of the serums, they're not going to be able to get down with those because they look. And I dealt with this with my male clients in office. You know, every time they facial they're like, I'm really shy And I'm like, yeah, you're hydrated, your pores are cleaned out. It will calm down. Like, don't worry, you're not going to be like this forever. But also, yeah, it's finding that that balance of like giving some of those benefits but not giving you like girly skin.
- [14:32]
Amitai
Like, I think even. I think, well, to get into, you know, you're formulating now, which is. I think you're living in a different world than when we paid the first consult consultant, formulation consultant, which was probably 2016. And especially if you go the route that we went, which is like, who's the best? We're going to hire them. What happened was that the zeitgeist was. People want to feel that they have something on their skin. Like women want to know there is something on their skin. Like, you know, five hours later they want to be able to do this and say it's still there, whatever that is. And that is today. I think it's very, it's malleable. I think men like women, a lot of women actually don't want that. Other ones want like glass skin, whatever. It's. I think there's a spectrum. But men definitely, for the most part don't want that.
- [15:36]
Jamie
Yeah, they don't.
- [15:37]
Amitai
They don't want. They want to have a product that they can use very quickly that's on one end. Like, there's no way, like you. Even if they had like a 10 product regimen, the only way it would be possible in is if everything vanishes off their skin immediately. They just need to press something 10 times. Right.
- [15:58]
Jamie
Like, I mean, yeah, only uses Youth Reset. That's the only one uses. That's it.
- [16:04]
Amitai
That's what I wanted to tell you.
- [16:05]
Jamie
Doesn't use moisturizer, doesn't cleanse. That doesn't make me mad. I'm like. And he's got the best skin ever, so we can't. I don't. And now I'm trying to give him this one added thing. Okay, Youth Reset. And now you're going to put my product on and you're gonna. No. And of course he got a breakout and is now blaming. I'm like, okay, I've been wearing it every night. I'm not breaking out. Of course you could have a little reaction maybe because your skin has, you know, no idea what skincare is ever. But, you know, it's a.
- [16:33]
Amitai
But again, breakout a lot of the time, in my opinion. Okay. And by the way, we can go to specific ingredients like copper peptides, like nad, like, let Me think of another one that, that is just like not something that aha's VHAs okay. MCTs that people use in skincare like acrylic acid, whatever. These ingredients do interact with the immune system. So technically speaking your immune system might need to adjust how it reacts to them. And in that adjustment in different cultures, by the way, Anastasia obviously comes from a Soviet Eastern European culture. It's very common to be more aggressive with your actives and therefore understanding that there is an adjustment period.
- [17:21]
Jamie
I think purging is a huge phase that happens with. I give this disclaimer. It's not only in my protocols, but I explain to everybody that especially if they're not used to these products at all, they are medical grade strength, they are active skincare and they're going to make transformations and they're going to make change and they're going to do what you want them to do in time. But there is an adjustment period, for sure.
- [17:44]
Amitai
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for sure, for sure. And on the back end, a lot of the times we even want that adjustment period to some extent. Like there are ingredients that are less common in skincare because you would have to pulse them on and off.
- [18:00]
Jamie
Yeah.
- [18:00]
Amitai
Like there is algae extract that we're formulating for another, for another company. And that would be also for, to be related with like infrared saunas. And you are not going to get most of the benefits from that. If you have a constant percentage of it in your skin. You actually kind of need to not have it in your skin and then have it in your skin again. And, and a lot of things that are related to oxidative stress would be, would, would have that Goldilocks zone to how often we should use them, et cetera. So. Okay, so since I have some questions for you that I was very interested in, I'll continue my exploration here. Okay. So I want to talk a little bit about like building the protocol, tools, ingredients, how you see things. So what are the core components in your opinion of an anti aging protocol? And by the way, if you don't like the word anti aging because I'm, I'm not a fan to be honest. But like if, if, if, if it's a word that you don't like, I would like you to tell me. Hey, this is, I use this instead. Or, or do you use anti aging because that's what your clients are familiar with. How do you see even the word? And then you know, what are the core tenants there?
- [19:21]
Jamie
Well, that's exactly it. As I, I say it based on what people for sure and connect with. I mean I'm kind of the same way with you, but I haven't found a term that I really care for. One of my protocols that I just. My free downloads that I made is called the Age well Guide. Age well is, you know, a good title for a guide, but I don't think I'd be able to like speak it so easily. I guess like Age well pro aging.
- [19:46]
Amitai
But I also think I don't like pro Youthful. Youthful function I like, but I think it's so nerdy and not sexy, you know. Have you ever heard about the chain of places called Restore Hyper Wellness?
- [20:01]
Jamie
Yes, we have one actually.
- [20:03]
Amitai
So Jim Connolly, shout out to Jim Connolly, founder of Restore now they have a new thing because he sold Restore, which is called Humanot. I think they only have it in Austin. We might go there when we're in Austin. Jim Connolly said something very interesting. He said that biohacking is a male word and that predominantly the movement, as time goes on, just the essence of the movement, just being younger and being, you know, driving biological changes for youthful function is going to be female oriented field long term. And that at some point women are going to have their own word. But no one knows what it is yet.
- [20:47]
Jamie
Yeah.
- [20:47]
Amitai
And I, and I asked him if it's longevity. He said longevity is even a more male word. I don't know why he said that, but he said that. And also, but what we do see by the way, if you look at like places like A4M that A4M stands for American Academy for Anti Aging Medicine. They now even call their conference Longevity. So I think there is a movement of espousing the benefits associated with anti aging to the word longevity.
- [21:17]
Jamie
Okay.
- [21:17]
Amitai
Like in the 90s or 80s where they said instead of sale, they said savings. Instead of discounts, they said savings.
- [21:24]
Jamie
Yeah, there's just so many words.
- [21:27]
Amitai
But yeah, I don't know what, what the word is, but, but let's, let's go with anti aging. So what's the, what are the tenets of the protocol?
- [21:35]
Jamie
Well, depending on how sensitive, let's just take sensitivity, I guess off the table just so that we can get them like a heavy hitting. You know, I start everybody with a moderate protocol. If they don't sensitivity and they're just looking for anti aging, they're definitely not going to be in beginner stage. You know, they're going to be more like advanced. So typically I start with you know, a good, more hydrating kind of cleanser, not super, super stripping or drying Especially because the anti aging stuff that we're looking at, the age range is going to be more like late 30s, early 40s, mid-40s and yeah, so we don't want super drying or stripping if they don't have any acne to deal with or anything like that. You know, I leave that kind of off the table. I do, I usually do adaptogenic cleanser for most of those protocols. Definitely the bio C peptide spray because obviously you want the vitamin C, you want the peptides. So that's just there for more support, it's activation. And then I typically introduce two serums. So I'll have them start slow. So depending on, you know, their skin type or exact specific concerns that they have, whether it be hyperpigmentation, fine lines, dullness, all this stuff will be my serum cocktail that I'll recommend. So it'll be a minimum of two. I never really go over two for their first protocol. I don't find it necessary. So let's just start with 2. Introduce the products to your skin, see how you do. One of them will be an a.m. and p.m. serum that I'll start with. So they'll use that same 1:00am and PM. The second one like a retinol or retinol to hide. I'll have them start on PM only and start maybe every other night and see how it goes. If they notice that they're having sensitivity, I'll have them back off a little bit, maybe a third night.
- [23:14]
Amitai
And that can be, and that can appear, you know, two, three, four weeks in. Right. Like that. That's important to know that relationship with vitamin A, which is retinol, retinaldehyde is cumulative, right?
- [23:31]
Jamie
Exactly. So we'll just, and that's why they, you know, I do these consultations is because we stay in contact about what the stages are because a lot of times they'll be fine. And then there's some people out there who have more sensitivity to it. And then we'll, we'll gauge it, we'll back off or add in if they, if there's no problem and they've been on it for months, I say try it every night and then gradually increase to, to day and night. Now that's what the retinol Hyde specifically because it's, you know, has sun safe components. So the retinol is the one that I'd say you could try it but be, you know, more cautious of the sun. Like just make sure that you're not getting direct sunlight for too long. And then we'll do A, I usually do like two moisturizers. So it'll be a daytime moisturizer and a nighttime moisturizer. Nighttime, I want to be heavier. So I want it to really be that like moisturizing treatment overnight. Definitely an eye serum and then I'll add in a monthly treatment. So this is where I get into like, you don't really need facials. Like you can absolutely get these benefits and do everything at home. If you want to, you can always go get facials. They're not bad. But I'm trying to like guide people and coach people to be able to do these things themselves. I don't get facials. So let me teach you what I do. That's my job. So I do a monthly treatment. So that will include the exfoliating treatment. And because I'm not big on exfoliating, over exfoliating meaning a few times a week, which is what a lot of, you know, skincare products or professionals will recommend. I'm anti that. So. And I, I've done this for years. Years. So basically when I had clients in office, their exfoliating treatment was in office. That's when you get exfoliation. If there was a certain time, like let's say we did a peel and they were flaking a little bit or it was like winter, maybe we'll have you do a in between exfoliation treatment at home. But right now let's just stick to once a month and I'll, you know, they also know their skin but sometimes they might need a little bit more help in that arena. But I, I want to get your skin sustainable and doing its thing on its own. You know, it's shedding its skin every 30 days anyway. Like, let's support it rather than strip, strip, strip, strip, strip. So I want to make sure that they're supporting their natural oils, the natural, you know, microbiome and not. I think we've all gotten out of control with, you know, over exfoliation products that are damaging the barrier. You know, whether it be chemical peels and, you know, different. Like we talked about these invasive lasers and harsh toxic products and constant cell turnover that you're forcing. I don't understand that, like to a degree, well, one, a little bit. But I think there's a balance.
- [26:00]
Amitai
Yeah, well, you know, I'll tell you why I do understand that. Obviously I 1000% agree with you. The reason I understand that is because this was the prevailing view led by Dr. Zainabagi 30 years ago, 20 years.
- [26:19]
Jamie
To say for the red flag Too.
- [26:21]
Amitai
Exactly. But, but, but you could see companies like literally like look at companies that started around 30 years ago. It was even kind of the inception of like medical grade sold by physician type, which is like skinceuticals, Obagi, whatever. Like all of those companies. And that was the holy grail. Like hey, let's make the skin turn over. And when you know, people need to understand turnover means cells split. They try to make new cells out of what they were. And, and also that, that is the process of renewal which with age becomes slower. So the very, very simplistic logic is like hey, let's make it faster. But no, but to your point, the problem with that is that the reason cellular turnover slows down is because the cells have an innate knowledge of what is their ability to turn over successfully to turnover without depleting reservoirs, without you know, having really bad quality collagen, elastin, hyaluronic acid, whatever that is. And when you are pushing that limit, then we see myths like retinol thins out your skin because it's not, not true if you are depleting all the reservoirs and then you're asking the skin to split. We see people who have been going through these protocols for 30 years. Their skin is first of all kind of see through. It doesn't matter their pigment level, the veins, they are there. It's rigid, it's bruiseable, it's really easily bruised and it looks very thin and all of those. And I don't mean to, I mean I have a few more, but it gets meaner since sincere. So let's keep it like that. But that is the eventuality of that depletion of reservoirs. And you mentioned like the most, I think the most, probably the least sexy but the most important discussion. I don't see people having enough. Which is, which is skin barrier, which is something that has been either ignored or treated as, as like what really cheap skin care companies say, like Strivectin or something. Right? Which is like healthy, healthy skin barrier. So maybe you could tell me where does skin barrier health fit into your strategy?
- [28:50]
Jamie
Well, I kind of look at the skin bar like in the most dumbed down way is like your wall in a way, you know, where it's like, okay, do you want a really strong, thick, so to speak wall that can basically, you know, you can throw anything at it and it can just, you know, bounce off. Or do you want this like thin, crumbling little wall that's like, you know, you, you blow on it and it'll just fall over kind of Thing, like, I know it sounds like a silly analogy, but it's just something I think of. Like, this is your layer that you want to make sure is not only, like, robust and strong, but not, like, weak and delicate. And it's kind of how I think about everything, like, the body and, you know, like, I don't go to the doctor. I don't, you know, do certain things that I'm just like, why do you know, I don't want to rely on anything else. I want to make sure my body is reliant on itself and sustainable on its own. So that's why I have to do these things, to make sure that I'm building strong foundation through my diet, through, you know, avoiding, you know, toxins as much as I can. All these things that my body can withstand and be a strong wall, so to speak. So that's like how I look at the barrier. It's just like, rather than harming it and caught, like, I just want it to be like a caveman. Like, I want, like, handle itself. I want it to be able to go out into the sun and not burn and not have a bunch of hyperpigmentation. I want it to be able to put a product on and not get all red and irritated. Like, to me, that's like a weak barrier. You know, if you're experiencing these things, to me, I think you've probably done too much in the past. It shows that maybe you've experimented a little bit and, like, all these fads of, like, you know, lasers, and maybe you've singed your skin off a bunch because you, you know, a med spot told you so, or, you know, maybe you've just done too much, tried a bunch of products and. And done it all. And now your barrier is just kind of like, shriveled and a little bit, you know, like, scared of the world, where you out in the sun and you're that person in this big hat. Like, I am confident in my barrier. I'm confident in my skin. I go out in the sun like this. Sure. I wear a baseball cap now and then. If sun's hitting me, I embrace it. I'm like, this is good. It's feeding me nutrients. I'm not afraid of these things. And if I apply a product or derma roll or do these things that are, like, enhancing my products and enhancing my skin, then that is just, like, support for my barrier rather than scaring it. And making 100% that makes any sense.
- [31:16]
Amitai
Makes perfect sense. And, you know, you mentioned Derma Roller.
- [31:19]
Jamie
Less, but I know it's because of the roller. I know you like.
- [31:23]
Amitai
No, but you know, it's, it's. I think you know, derma roller. That's where I think I get misunderstood. Where, where if we were talking about our favorite subject which is like Morpheus 8, then I would be very, you know, I'd be very direct and say there is no way you're creating more benefit than harm. Like to tell you, tell you something like that so you know that you can't go around. No one can promise you that they are the, the, the, the, the Morpheus 8 God. That is, that knows exactly the penetration levels and knows exactly the, the, the power that, that they need to relay in order to create the results in your skin that doesn't exist. And by the way, that's not how the machine was built. Having said that, when I say oh, you know, a derma pen or like a stamp is preferred to derma roller. I'm saying preferred. I'm saying like whatever. You know, I know that it's a, it's much, it's a much easier process. A derma roller rather than a dermapen.
- [32:28]
Jamie
Yeah, that's the thing for me. So that. Thank you for mentioning that. Because it is easier, it is easier than. Let's just take a stamp as an example. Right. Like stamping is like this mechanism. A roller obviously is constantly moving. You can actually target an area more than one. So you're not just doing one roll.
- [32:44]
Amitai
I agree.
- [32:44]
Jamie
Equivalent to a stamp, right?
- [32:46]
Amitai
Yes.
- [32:46]
Jamie
Also matters. And I'm making my own drum roller right now as we speak. So this, the stuff is very important to me. But the needles like there many derma rollers have wheels with little pyramid shaped needles. So that can absolutely damage the skin. When you're rolling and pulling the skin. When you have a singular needle that is just going in and coming right out, you're not causing skin damage or, or tears or pull to the skin. You also have to do it in an appropriate way. Meaning you pull the skin tight, you go over and you also don't go any deeper than 0.25. I am not about doing on your face. I. Unless you have like deep, deep, deep pitted scarring. And you can absolutely go up in the derma roller.
- [33:28]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Jamie
For this and target specific areas. But when you're just talking about anti aging benefits and improving skin health and you know, getting that barrier stronger, you do not need to go deeper than 0.25 millimeters. And that's just to basically, you know, stimulate some blood flow. And we also want to penetrate the products, the active product using deeper. That is the main purpose. And anybody that claims anything other than that is just silly. So it's just there as a support and as an advanced system for people who want that.
- [33:57]
Amitai
I couldn't agree more. And not only that, it is silly. Silly from if you, an end user relates to, you know, a 1.5 piston based pen that is really only, you know, the difference in penetration is really for that scar tissue.
- [34:17]
Jamie
Yes.
- [34:18]
Amitai
To something you do at home. In my opinion, it's the same delivery system which are needles, but it's a different treatment.
- [34:27]
Jamie
Yeah, totally.
- [34:28]
Amitai
It's like, I don't know. To give you a good example, I guess your teeth are a delivery system for food, but you could eat different things. I don't know. That might not be the best example, but I.
- [34:38]
Jamie
And it makes sense. So basically what you can do as a tool at home that isn't going to create damage, so to speak, is something like a derma roller. Right. But you can always advance it further by doing something like a, you know, 1.5 millimeter micro needling treatment. Go get a little PRP or something that might be something you go to the med spa and do. Some people do it at home. I wouldn't advise going that deep on your own if you don't know what you're doing. I would definitely stick to a professional for micro needling. I love micro needling. I'm just giving options and insight into like what you could achieve at home that you could actually do more often.
- [35:14]
Amitai
Yes.
- [35:14]
Jamie
Like a dumb roller. Other than paying, you know, 500 plus for a micro needling treatment at a med spa that you're only doing, you know, you have to stick to it in order for any benefits. Going one or two times is going to essentially do nothing for yourself.
- [35:28]
Amitai
Nothing. Nothing.
- [35:28]
Jamie
Yeah. Do it.
- [35:30]
Amitai
And I think, you know, order of priority, the pyramid of priorities over here. What, what the discussion someone's going to have with you is really at the bottom of the pyramid. It's a basis basic level that you cannot go around. There is no if you're going to go. So that's another discussion. The amount of people asking me about CO2 lasers is concerning.
- [35:51]
Jamie
Having said that, yes. And this is an influencer thing that's happened is why it's becoming a bigger conversation. Because so many influencers are going and getting like little mini CO2 laser treatments. It's absurd.
- [36:04]
Amitai
But I would say that because at the end of the day, our stance as a skincare company Is like we are a skincare company. We definitely have opinions that influence our decision making. But at the end of the day we're not the only person whispering in that person's ear. So my, I need to make sure that I give advice that are also enabling, that are saying our opinion is that you should not do X. But if you do do X, here is how you make sure that at least you don't, you know, what we care about is like biological age of the skin. At least you don't age your skin biologically. So talking about lasers, I don't think that they are the worst. If your decision is either a laser or again like Morpheus 8 or softwave, which would be to me worse or Kybella, which to me would be to me, you know, really the end of the world. I'm okay with you doing a laser. But here, here's something you should consider. The laser isn't going to provide any benefits. What will supposedly provide some benefit is how your skin reacts to it. Therefore, if you are, if you have a 50 year old functioning skin, you are going to not only get the same results, you're going to get worse results because your skin is going to renew like a 50 year old.
- [37:20]
Jamie
Yeah.
- [37:21]
Amitai
If you were diligent enough again like going through a protocol with you for like six months, not a week, six months. And then you feel like your skin behaves like a 30 year old skin. And then you want to test it by doing a laser and see how fast it behaves, how fast it, it recovers. If it gets hyperpigmented, if it gets swollen, if it holds on to liquid, many things. That is something I can live with even though I again, I wouldn't do it myself. That's so that's my opinion about it. And no amount of growth factors, exosomes, anything like that is going to relieve you of the, of the need of the, of those, what I call prejuvenation of that prep time.
- [38:08]
Jamie
Yeah. And the thing that I talk about quite a bit and same as you where it's like a lot of these lasers I don't have a problem with either. I have a problem with what they actually do for what they cost and what the risks potentially are. Is it worth the dollar amount? Like there's thousands of dollars. Yeah, thousands. If I pay that for a BBL Moxie, clear and brilliant Halo, all these lasers that everybody asked me about, I better have a new face and, and if. Was it worth the dollar?
- [38:42]
Amitai
Wow. Yeah. You know what? That's, that's so funny that you're saying that because again, like for now we have like 200 med spas and or whatever providers in the states that we work with. And here's the thing that I, that I say all the time when they ask, ask us about a new device, about anything. I'm saying, you know, in order to ask for $3,000 or in order to get $3,000 from someone, that person believes they are getting $3,000 worth of results. Are you comfortable, you know, promising $3,000 worth of results? Are you confident saying, hey, I'm going to need another $3,000 for you to see those results for real now this time, you know, yeah, you need it.
- [39:25]
Jamie
Over and over and over. What I dealt with when I worked in the med spas and had to sell these packages and I didn't feel I was not a good saleswoman. I always had the owners in my ear, you could sell more like you this person, this tell her she needs that. I couldn't do it because I thought a lot of them were just bs. I never saw anybody's skin walking out of that office that looked better than mine. And I wasn't doing any of these treatments. Yes, yes, skincare at home, that's it. And so I, my, my light bulbs were going off back then and now I'm just very outspoken about it. Now. It doesn't mean that they are bad and there's plenty of people who are happy with the result, but I still ask them, the result that you're happy with, do you think it was worth that much? Especially something like Morpheus 8.
- [40:08]
Amitai
No.
- [40:09]
Jamie
My Morpheus 8 treatments.
- [40:10]
Amitai
No one.
- [40:11]
Jamie
No, no. Was not worth it at all.
- [40:14]
Amitai
No, no. It makes zero biochemical functional sense that you will get good results from morphez8, by the way. Hey there.
- [40:28]
C
This is Amitai, co founder and CEO of, of Young Goose and host of the Biohacking Beauty podcast. I wanted to take a brief moment to share something really special with you, our dedicated listeners at Young Goose. We've always been about more than just skincare. We are about cellular care. We believe in not just addressing the signs, but truly diving into the very source of skin aging. The reality is, as time goes on, our skin undergoes damage and this damage accumulates gradually, leading to those signs of aging we all see and know very well. But what if we could hit the rewind button? What if we could delve deep in, not into the layers of the skin, but into the life sustaining mechanisms of our skin cells? That's exactly what we're doing. At Young Goops, we're pioneering a renaissance in skincare by employing principles from regenerative medicine. By rejuvenating and restoring the cellular functions, our products aim to rewind time, gifting your skin a youthful, vibrant glow. And for our biohacking beauty listeners, we have a special treat. Head over to Yongoos.com right now and use the code PODCAST10 to get 10% off your first purchase. Discover the magic of truly transformative skincare. And hey, because we value our returning customers just as much, use podcast five on your subsequent purchases to get 5% off. And the best part, that this discount can be combined with subscriptions and our already discounted systems. So why wait? Dive deep into the realm of regenerative skincare with Yungoos and let your skin. Thank you. Remember, it's not just skin care, it's cellular care. And now back to our conversation.
- [42:31]
Amitai
I do have a question. So going back to products.
- [42:34]
Jamie
Yes.
- [42:34]
Amitai
How do you account for product interactions, sequencing and skin sensitivity, which we avoided in the, in our discussion five minutes ago. So how do you, you know, there is a lot of misinformation about, for example, an interaction of vitamin C and copper peptides or there is for people who have sensitive skin like vitamin C, interactions with retinol. With retinol. So what are your opinions about product interactions? What are you staying away from? What are you.
- [43:06]
Jamie
I don't really, because everything that I offer and work with product wise is all working in harmony together, their systems in place. And I've tested these personally. If there's something specific to an individual that's a little bit on the individual's side to be responsible for, to know some of these things, whether it be allergies or, you know, specific sensitivities to things that they have already had a history with, which a lot of them do know this kind of stuff. And also trial and error. We're not to know how something is reacting with your skin until we start and see everything is so different and individual. There is no way on earth to know how a product or a system is going to react with somebody's skin, period. There's just. No, no. So it is more. And I'm, I am just not the studies and science girl. I am the real life. Let's try something and see how it goes, girl. And also base it on a certain amount of, you know. Yeah, study or sorry, not studies, but experience. Very experiments. Right. Like client experience. And I go off of that. If I had a pattern of clients that were experiencing similar things, there would Be something to take into consideration about specific combinations of products. But every, there's, it's never been that way. There's always just different cases, there's different adjustments. It's, it's very individual. And why I think the consultations are so important, the protocols are so important. But also I'm at a little bit of a crossroads because I'm not able to continue business this way. Like, you know, I can't continue to offer one on one consultations. I'm one person, I have hundreds of clients and there's follow up too. So it's not just the one conversation that we're having. We speak, you know, I mean, they have my email. It's a con.
- [44:56]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Jamie
You know, I don't have, I don't.
- [44:59]
Amitai
Know, I don't know if it makes any sense to you. That's a side discussion. But we're working on a project of building a, an AI bot for clinics that has all of our protocols and a lot of the about 300 what ifs, you know, that are, that, I would say probably 70, 80% of the, of the scenarios that a provider is going to meet are going to be housed there. And then obviously someone at the front desk won't have to go through. We used to give like ledgers, you know, like a book. And it didn't even have like an appendix in the back. So, you know, so someone could go ahead and say to this bot, hey, this lady is 35 years old and that's what she's interested in. And you're going to get like an out, like some kind of protocol. Right.
- [45:49]
Jamie
So let's discuss later because that is something.
- [45:52]
Amitai
Oh yeah, cool, sure. Easy. Another thing that we have, and here's a real problem we have, we've developed a dry blood spot test. We, we need to start running a pilot with you, to be honest. Dry blood spot test that would tell you basically a kind of a integumentary system is your hair, skin and nails. It's going to give you a grade of how well your cells function for hair, skin and nails.
- [46:19]
Jamie
Is this the metabolomics.
- [46:20]
Amitai
Yeah, metabolomics test. And then it will also offer products that would offset that and hopefully would also supplement on things that are going to offset that holistically. The problem is it cost us about 500 to run for a test. Yeah, that's not bad.
- [46:38]
Jamie
$500 to run. Oh, cost you guys 500?
- [46:42]
Amitai
Yeah, we don't even want to, we don't even want to make a dollar off of it. Okay, we don't want to make it all. So we should run a pilot and see if people, if that's something that helps you cut through the noise and then maybe even have a shorter consultation or at least like, you know, if people are willing to do it every six months then they will definitely get, they could see the difference on a cellular level and they're going to get a higher grade which means younger biological age. So we should, it's already, it's FDA approved. So yes, okay, I do have. We, we are running out of time because I promised Chelsea shout out to Chelsea Morrow, our editor, that, that this.
- [47:22]
Jamie
Won'T go over an hour.
- [47:23]
Amitai
We won't go over an hour. So I, and I have a lot more to cover. So maybe shortly. Do you have, do you have like a short, like not a short but do you have a difference, an innate difference of a protocol of a 30 plus year old and a 50 plus year old?
- [47:41]
Jamie
Yes. It's going to be a lot smaller in their 30s. I don't want them on a super heavy routine because I want to build on it. That is another thing that I'm big on is buildable routines. Yeah, there's no need to get you everything all at once. Let's start here, depending on 30s or 50s and see how your skin responds, number one. Because I also don't want people wasting money. I don't want them, you know, investing in a, in a huge system that they might not like. I want to kind of gauge it. We're going to gauge us together. We're going to start you here, see how your skin does. Okay, let's introduce something here and here. Same thing with your 30s. We'll build on that but we're going to start a lot slower. Like we're going to start on like four or five products max. I'm not going to start you off with like all the anti aging things. Maybe one serum versus two. So yeah, those do vary depending on age and exact concerns and goals. And again, especially if you're in your 30s, I, I'm going to be way more worried about what you're doing with your diet and making sure that your foundations are super, super healthy so that you have long term skin health over the products being, you know, five or ten, it doesn't matter. You need to make sure that you're doing the right things now because when you're in your 50s, you're at a certain stage now where it's like, okay, are we going to be considering possible surgery? You know, like that's What I talk to women about, because they're always like, I, I don't know what to do about my hooded eyes or I just wish my face would do this or I can't neck. I'm like, come to Jesus moment. This is surgery. This is not products. Do not do this.
- [49:12]
Amitai
Do not do. So do not do. Do not come. But also do not do anything that you think your muscles are going to fix magically. Your face tone or anything like that.
- [49:24]
Jamie
Believe it. They do think.
- [49:25]
Amitai
Well, I do think that there is something about. I am, I am alone here. Okay. What I'm saying right now, few, few of the surgeons who agree with me are few and far between. But I think someone in their 30s, as long as they don't have structural issues like TMD, TMJ, they should start either chew very tough things like I'm sure you do, or do a Jaws assizer. And the reason is, the reason is. And by the way, I would even get the cheap Amazon knockoff that sits on your molars rather than in the front of the mouth.
- [50:01]
Jamie
Okay.
- [50:02]
Amitai
Actually, both are good. They have their own.
- [50:04]
Jamie
You remind me, I need to get this. I used to chew chisel gum, which my friend used to have. He sold or got rid of the company, but it was that SAP.
- [50:15]
Amitai
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. So there are many reasons. That's like, if anyone's interested in like the, the bigger picture here, just read Breath by James Nestor. Great book. Easy book is an easy read as well. But for our discussion, there are two things that we lose with age. Muscle tone. But the real second thing is bone mass.
- [50:39]
Jamie
Yes.
- [50:40]
Amitai
So we need weight bearing in order to preserve and cultivate bone mass. And that is really what's going on here. Aside from everything else that we like muscle tone or anything like that, which would also improve. It's really that, that bone mass. So we thought a long time of giving those for free when people, when people buy products. But because of the TMD aspect, we always go back and forth because it, you know, has tmd and that's not something that you can do. But the muscle Jawsizer type, the muscle Steam simulators, in my opinion, are great for product penetration. They're not that good at like, you know, cultivating muscle mass or tightening or anything like that. With respect. Okay, so then I'm going to try and move too fast. So let's, let's, let's maybe tell me in like a rapid, rapid. What's it called? Rapid fire round. Like, what's the first thing that pops to your Head is when I say this as far as like a bespoke protocol, hyperpigmentation in mature skin.
- [51:48]
Jamie
I say retinol for sure. I say derma rolling for sure. And I say make sure it's hyperpigmentation versus melasma. If it's melasma, it needs to be an internal focus, meaning liver detox, liver support. And we need to focus on your hormone balancing. If you have a history of birth control, if you're a mom.
- [52:06]
Amitai
That's what I have. That's what I have. And every time I over train and my hormones go haywire because I'm an idiot, I go train with professional jiu jitsu athletes like I'm going to compete in the Olympics or whatever. Every time. Then I go to the sun. Boom. Melasma, loss of elasticity and sagging.
- [52:26]
Jamie
Definitely retinol or retinaldehyde. A stem cell serum for sure. Derma rolling for sure. I also recommend looking at collagen peptides internal.
- [52:38]
Amitai
Yeah, I would say within that. By the way, that's something I forgot to say about, you know, stem cell serum. We're going to send you a prototype of our platelet derived exosomes serum that we make basically PRP derived exosomes which are really cool but with great power come great drying. So products that are, that are human based, like, like exosomes stem cells, they're going to make you more dry. So bear that in mind. Guys. Speaking about that dryness and dull texture.
- [53:10]
Jamie
Okay, Definitely if they don't have an exfoliation treatment to include it. But what I find is that they are already exfoliating and they're doing it too much. So what we're going to do is we're not going to cleanse in the morning, which is my biggest tip. Most of them are cleansing in the morning. They're all using the exfoliation pads or some type of scrub exfoliant several times a week, get rid of that completely. And then we're going to also use something like a retinol because eventually that will help to do the cell turnover which will also plump out the skin and a really good moisturizer. And this is where we'll build on if you need a daytime and a nighttime moisturizer. But we'll start with a good daytime moisturizer that can be used day and night like the daily serum or moisturizer. That is my biggest one that I recommend for things like that. But most of the time it's just an adjustment of what they're. They're already doing because they're definitely doing too much.
- [53:59]
Amitai
Usually a hundred percent perimenopausal slash hormonal aging changes.
- [54:04]
Jamie
Get internal testing done. Know for sure if you're in perimenopausal because a lot of people are super assume this based on their symptoms. And sometimes it's not that at all. We're really gonna have to do more internal work before even worrying about products. And I just keep the products super simple until that part is more balanced out because the products will not do anything.
- [54:25]
Amitai
Wow. And you're so correct. And then when you do, the problem with you is that you want to set them on a path. And the path might be, when I say completely different, might be the exact opposite. Once their hormones are in, are balanced out.
- [54:42]
Jamie
Right, exactly.
- [54:43]
Amitai
Especially if it's thyroid related. Okay. Last inflammating chronic low grade inflammation in the skin.
- [54:53]
Jamie
Well, this is going to be different depending on kind of age and skin sensitivity to a very simplistic protocol because this is almost like where we base it off sensitivity. So I just want to be really mindful of a slow process with really gentle products in the beginning. But also the diet, especially with inflammation, is where we really have to focus. That diet is going to be either the component behind the inflammation, it's also going to be the thing that can reverse it. So diet, diet, diet is the first focus secondary to skincare.
- [55:26]
Amitai
So funny because I'm like, in the back of my mind when I'm asking the question, I'm like, should I, should we even mention sugar? Is it, you know, are you, are you, how, how do you mention it in passing? Do you believe in yourself when you're telling them? Or do you believe in their compliance when you're telling them, hey, sugar is something you should take out. Do you even like, do you believe they're going to follow that?
- [55:50]
Jamie
But they're very honest in their form. Everybody has a form that is either a great diet, seemingly, but at the bottom it's always like, I will say that sugar, I, I do have this on the weekends and sugar is my one little vice. And I do have those conversations where I'm like, just so you know, because I tell you to get rid of sugar does not mean that you have to sacrifice the sweet component. You can still have something sweet without having refined sugar. Yeah, sugar itself. Refined sugar is absolutely breaking down your collagen. It's going to rapidly age you. So if I tell you that one thing and scare the crap out of you, I promise you, you will start Changing your mind about how much sugar you have and just switch to maple syrup instead. Or honey.
- [56:33]
Amitai
Yeah. Or dates. Or shout out to dates. Okay, fantastic. We are. I mean, I have literally three more segments that I wanted to go for, but I do want to ask you something to close it up and we're going to have to do more of that. You just had explant surgery. First of all, congratulations. And your. It's really cool that you're sharing about it. And what's really cool is that I see you started a trend. Like people pass your. You know, I don't know if that. That's my algorithm, but like it seems like people are more open with sharing about it. So it's.
- [57:10]
Jamie
Oh, are they? I don't know. I mean, I'm glad if they are because. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people do.
- [57:16]
Amitai
Yeah. And my question is, you know, framing it for our discussion here is the. You had first experience with major surgery recovery. So I'm wondering if you. If you wanted to highlight the things that you felt allowed you to recover as comfortably. Because that's what I got from following your journey and as quickly and as effectively. What would those things be?
- [57:46]
Jamie
Well, as I'm sure you know, because we did discuss my protocol and post and it was very aligned with, you know, what your recommendations were to what I already had. And it's peptides for sure were game changer. And this is what me and Tyson have worked with several clients we work with outside of skincare. We work with clients on their health and things like recovery and pre and post surgery care. The peptides were a huge component. Huge. Just detox. So I was doing, you know, like topical glutathione. I was doing, you know, castor oil packs just to detox from the anesthesia were where you could just feel incredible faster. You know that where you just are. It's like you didn't even have surgery. And just like nourishing food obviously is staple for me no matter what, but you know, getting enough electrolytes, liquids and all of that but you know, staying on top of it with peptides. And not even all the supplements. I don't care about all the supplements. I'm Talking about like BPC157, you know, we have thymus and alpha to keep your immune system really strong and that. And it's really important to start pre and post and a lot of people don't understand and granted, listen to your doctor, I guess, but it's like these things you can take before surgery because they.
- [59:09]
Amitai
Yes, yes.
- [59:10]
Jamie
Everything before surgery, certain supplements. Yes. Because you don't want to thin the blood and all of that peptides, you can stay on. Literally. I took my BPC the day of my surgery, day after my surgery. So, yeah, peptides were the top, top, top, number one thing.
- [59:25]
Amitai
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. And as we discussed, like some peptides such as BPC, they build up in your system, so you, you might want to consider taking them. So they build up for around six weeks before they peak.
- [59:36]
Jamie
You have to take it before for sure.
- [59:37]
Amitai
Yeah, you want to take it before. So that's really, really cool. And I think maybe, you know, that's.
- [59:42]
Jamie
A whole podcast protocol, but yeah, we'll save that maybe.
- [59:47]
Amitai
Cool, cool. Listen, Jamie, it's such a pleasure to have a relationship with you.
- [59:51]
Jamie
Thanks. Same.
- [59:52]
Amitai
And we feel blessed that you are part of our family and we will see you in person very, very soon. Next week. I don't know when this airs, but next week as we're recording is biohacking conference, which we're going to see each other there. And I wish you continued success. Keep doing a fantastic work and be well.
- [60:11]
Jamie
Thank you so much. It's good to see you.
- [60:13]
Amitai
Oh, oh. Before, before I end. How do people. You see, I forgot everything already. How do people, you know, where do people follow you to get, you know, free information? For example, I like your blogs very much.
- [60:27]
Jamie
Yes.
- [60:28]
Amitai
Where. How do people work with you?
- [60:30]
Jamie
Yeah, all the things. So new website is Jamianne Co. Make it real easy for people instead of this whole long word.
- [60:38]
Amitai
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Jamie
Instagram is still Jamie Anesthetics because it's just a foundation that I built and it's there for forever at this point. So at Jamie anesthetics is Instagram. A lot of my free information, blogs, recipes, all of the Young Goose product line is available on my website. And then I also just have a ton of information on my Instagram page as well. So whether it be links, whether it be. You want to know my surgery protocol that's also on the blog. You want to know, just a day to day, what my day looks like, what I do, what I eat, all of that's on my Instagram and kind of crosses over to the website as well.
- [61:16]
Amitai
And funny because the latest blog, if I remember correctly, is pretty similar to what we spoke about today as far as like how to build the protocol. Right. So that's a good one that you just.
- [61:27]
Jamie
Yeah, I have the skincare for each decade, so. So what I recommend in your, you know, seniors, which isn't really anything. And then 20s, 30s, 40s plus. So I give kind of a rough idea of what I would recommend in those stages.
- [61:40]
Amitai
Very cool. Fantastic. Okay, Jamie, again, thank you very much. Of course. And we'll see each other soon.
- [61:47]
Jamie
Yeah, we'll see each other next week.
- [61:48]
Amitai
Bye.
- [61:49]
Jamie
Bye. It.