← Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Kiki Athanas: This Eating Hack Will Change Your Skin Forever
00:54:39
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- [00:00]
Kiki Athanas
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Amitai Eshel
Welcome back to Biohacking Beauty. I'm your host, Amitai Eshel, and as always, we are here to uncover the latest in skincare, self care and holistic health strategies to help you achieve radiant, youthful skin and a glowing sense of well being. This podcast is powered by Young Goose Skincare Co. I co founded together with my lovely wife, Anastasia Hojaeva, where we believe biohacking beauty is about both results and sustainable journey. Today, we're thrilled to be joined by Kiki Athanas, an intuitive eating coach and wellness expert. With a distinctive method focused on healing your relationship with food. Kiki helps people move beyond the dieting mindset to reconnect with true hunger and satiety, leveraging her own gut brain integration method to support a natural weight loss, emotional balance and sustainable beauty from within. She's worked with hundreds of clients, helping them break free from restrictive cycles and emotional eating so they too can embrace confidence and vitality. Every day. In this episode, Kiki will share how intuitive eating can help you reduce stress, nourish your skin, and experience the confidence that comes from trusting your body's own cues. If you're ready to explore a mindful, fulfilling approach to eating that enhances beauty from the inside out, this episode is for you. So without further ado, let's welcome Kiki. Okay, Kiki, welcome to the Biohacking Beauty podcast.
- [01:53]
Kiki Athanas
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to chat with you and be here.
- [01:56]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, it's to me, to be honest with you, I am new to the subject that we're going to be talking today, so I'm very excited. I would even like, I'm dying to start. So let's start kind of with discussing, like, the basics of intuitive eating. So for, for those like me who are new to the concept, what is intuitive eating? How does it differ from traditional dieting or other forms of like, food restriction?
- [02:27]
Kiki Athanas
Yes, well, I will share my definition and approach to intuitive eating because there's obviously various types. When I say intuitive eating and what I teach my clients is really total and complete choice of all foods and also total and complete choice of when to eat. So not only what to eat, but also when. And so obviously right away, it's kind of like, okay, that is the opposite of dieting where you're following external rules. Now, this word, intuitive, it's referring to the fact that we have internal bodily wisdom that actually guides us to make the right choices on what, what to eat, when to eat. Now, why it's difficult or, you know, why someone might hire me in the first place, why I have a job is so often we get, we kind of unlearn these, this, this way of natural eating. So for instance, when you are a child and your mom tries to feed you and you're not hungry, you don't eat right. Now, when you get to be an adult, maybe you eat when you're not hungry because, oh, well, I didn't have enough protein right? Or, oh, well, I might not eat in X number of hours, so I should eat now. Basically, we start to eat or not eat based on information in our head rather than the feeling in our body. And that's when eating becomes out of order. And we either undereat or oftentimes overeat and then start carrying excess. And then it becomes a problem, except then it becomes a vicious cycle of, oh, no, now I have excess weights. Oh, I must need to go on a diet. And that only feeds the cycle. Instead of, oh no, I'm carrying excess. I must have disconnected from myself, from my internal cues, and so I need to come back to myself. But instead we're taught, oh no, you're carrying excess, you've done things wrong. Let me teach you how to do it right. And so it really is the complete opposite of dieting. With that said, I think a lot of people get nervous about intuitive eating, and I definitely did, because there's this kind of idea that, oh, intuitive eating, it's all just eat whatever you want and, you know, who cares what you look like or whatever, like, and it's all very fluffy. And for those of us who prioritize our health and want to be healthy and also, dare I say, want to be slim, this concept of intuitive eating can seem like a waste of time when really, if we intuitively eat within the boundaries of our body, AKA following hunger and satiety, then of course we'll be healthy and we'll be slim. So I could go on, but I think that that's a little intro.
- [05:08]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, for sure. I wonder, first of all, it's very interesting. I think there's, there is a lot to unpack there from what you said. But I think before, like, I'm wondering what inspired you to specialize in, like, what was your journey to, to specialize in, in intuitive eating?
- [05:26]
Kiki Athanas
Well, I had quite the journey. I had very disordered eating for over 10 years. And I first got into, quote, unquote, healthy eating from a healthy place. When I was young. I had a little bit of puppy fat as I'm tall and as a lot of youth do, and So I decided to kind of look at what I was eating and start exercising more. And I, I lost my, my extra weight. But as a perfectionist, I got really, really obsessed with, oh, my goodness, okay, well, this makes me healthier and this makes me skinnier. And I made it my entire identity. And I went to a place where all I was doing or thinking about was eating, thinking about not eating, thinking about what I'm going to eat next, thinking about what I can't eat next. And now there's a term for it, and it's called orthorexia. And it's essentially an obsession with clean eating. And so I had that for many, many years. And so I really did avoid this idea of intuitive eating because I thought, oh, my goodness, no, no, no, I, I care about health and I care about being skinny. But eventually I got to a place where I was so disconnected with myself. I was suffering with ibs, I had a lot of skin issues. And I just got to a place where I was like, you know what? I just want to eat normally. I've totally lost the plot on even how to eat. I would go out to restaurants and see people, just look at a menu and carelessly, you know, seemingly just choose something. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God. I remember when I was a young child, I used to do that. I used to go to a restaurant hungry and choose something that I liked, ate the amount that I wanted, that felt good, and then move on with my life. And I literally cannot do that anymore. And so I did various programs, trainings, et cetera. And I eventually found this way with a woman called Shirley, and she had this process called energetics. And it really, really helped me relearn my hunger, my satiety, but also kind of the beliefs that were operating in my gut, as she would say, and as now I say, that were really causing me to eat outside the boundaries of my body and just connect with myself. And it was so life changing that I started learning more. And I kind of created my own method to help women get back there. And I first started with working solely with women who were suffering with similar things to me or thorexia. But then I realized, wait a second, whether you're underweight, whether you're overweight, whether you're a restrictor or a permitter, this method is really helpful to just helping you eat normally. And we think that we need to go on a diet or eat really clean or eat in this special way. And actually, I joke that if you eat normally, then you'll Be really healthy. Because to me, normally means you're just responding to your body's wisdom, which is the best way.
- [08:14]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. I wonder, you know, a lot of the times when we, when I talk with people that are just specialists in, in, you know, what comes into our mouth, for that matter. We're looking for transformation stories that are associated with figure. Right. Like with, with body transformation. But I wonder, you know, from what you're saying, I would love to hear how that journey transformed your own life or how clients that you've helped, how it had transformed their life, which goes beyond the appearance.
- [08:54]
Kiki Athanas
Yes. And let me start by saying I also think appearance is important too. And to be honest, the reason why I went on the process in the first place, yes, there was a whole bunch of reasons behind the scenes, but one of them was, oh, my goodness, I've always been very slim and now I feel not slim. And that really bothers me. And so I always say, I don't think that that's a problem. I think so many women, and, you know, possibly men too, get shamed for this idea of, oh my goodness, you just need to love yourself and get over it. And who are you trying, what are you trying to prove to who, like, accept yourself as you are? Of course we want to accept ourselves as we are, but if we're carrying excess and that doesn't always feel good for us. So I did lose weight, but what was more important once I lost the weight, once I really realized is it's not about the weight. It was about freeing up time and space in my life to actually live it. Right. I was so disconnected to my identity. And they say that the gut holds the core identity. And so if there are gut issues or if you're disconnected from your gut, then you're disconnected from your identity. And it goes, I know this can sound a little woo woo, but I remember my coach saying I had mentioned that, you know, sometimes I'll eat lunch or, you know, whatever meal, and then I just eat just enough that, you know, my body is asking for it. But then I'll say, but then I feel really uncomfortable afterwards, like I want to eat more, like I just want more. And I remember her saying, like, that's you connecting to your identity. Like without the buffer of food, you're raw and available to life and you're not used to that. And so often we use food to carry us forward to the next moment to lift us up out of reality. And when we take that away, it's just us living our life. And at the beginning, that can be really scary or, you know, a lot comes up and a lot surfaces. But then those are your emotions that you want to feel, that you want to move through. And once they move through, you realize, like, oh, wow, like, life isn't boring like I thought it was or that I needed to run away from. Life isn't so horrible, and I need to, you know, just push through. Life is actually beautiful. Like, it sounds so cliche, but I really was able to finally experience joy in the present moment, because that's what normal eating entails. It entails you being in the present moment. The only way that you can feel what tastes good to you, what feels good for you if you're hungry, is to drop into the present moment. And I realized that my problem wasn't with food, it was with being in the present moment. And so once I healed, that, like, so much joy was accessible. And it wasn't that anything revolutionary changed in my life. It was just that I was awake to it in a really peaceful, calm way.
- [11:44]
Amitai Eshel
Sounds meditative more than, you know, then calories in, calories out, by the way, within. You know, talking about. Many people or our society looks at food primarily for calories, calorie content, or weight management. But I wonder, what is your take about how what we eat impacts our skin health? Obviously, this is a biohacking beauty podcast. So, of course, you know, appearances are. Or our appearance is something that we are, you know, this is what this podcast is for. And I wonder how. How you view this. This relationship.
- [12:21]
Kiki Athanas
Oh, yes. So connected. And I will say probably not what people are expecting me to say, which is. Or maybe if they're. If you're already picking up on my vibe, you know, it's coming and it's not, you know, oh, there's these specific foods that everyone should eat for clear skin. I genuinely do not believe that because we all have unique microbiomes. We're all completely unique individuals. With that said, for me, in clearing my skin, it was really a journey of creating the calm so that I could really hear the wisdom of my body to choose the foods that work for me. I had avoided because I suffered with acne. I had avoided all the typical, like, oh, then you can't eat dairy and you can't eat gluten and don't eat sugar and blah, blah, blah, blah. But those rules only created more stress in my body. And oftentimes rules of eating create overeating. And so then I was overeating, and then, you know, compensating in other ways. And that was only creating more inflammation in my skin that was, you know, causing these issues. And so I absolutely believe that if we make calm, connected choices and obviously in amounts that feel good for us, then that is the only way to clear your skin if it is, you know, an internal issue. And yeah, I say that with like sometimes I remember with acne you'd go to dermatologist, whatever, and sometimes they say, oh, you just need to change your pillowcase or oh, you just need to. And it always really offended me because it was like, do you just think I'm really dirty? That's why I have acne. I'm personally, I have pcos, which is a hormone thing. So it was like, stop just telling me to like, I don't know, wash my face.
- [14:00]
Amitai Eshel
You gotta make sure the pig that you sleep in in bed does not come close to your face while you're right.
- [14:09]
Kiki Athanas
I was like, no, I'm not just super dirty. That's not why I have acne. It's because I'm inflamed and I think it's so hard. I really empathize because your skin is what the skin, especially on your face, it's, it's the way that you show up to the world and so it can feel so debilitating. And I wasn't able to do the sort of more rejuvenative or just restorative skincare practices that now I get to enjoy because I was just so, so focused on, oh my goodness, how am I going to dry out my skin? Like, how am I going to, you know, kill this acne? That the idea of nourishing or hydrating my skin was just like, whatever, low priority, I don't care. And so I would really encourage, you know, anyone listening that's suffering with skin issues is stop focusing on what you should be eating or what you shouldn't be eating and really focus on creating the calm and taking you with you. And I promise you, it's not, you know, a 24 hour turnaround, but it doesn't take that long to really calm the inflammation.
- [15:05]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, and actually you said the magic word because, you know, you, you did reference like acne or clear skin, which is, which obviously is what you are dealing with. But you know, in general, the, the, I think most people go through their, you know, teens, 20s, early 30s being more concerned about clear skin or, you know, smooth, you know, less visible pores, etc. But the same, I would say the same drivers are the drivers that later on lead to the things that people in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. Care about, which is obviously like wrinkles, laxity, by the way. They could still be plagued with or bothered with, with the same things that they were bothered with in their teens. But normally you mentioned inflammation, you mentioned stress, you mentioned, you know, not working in congruence with what your body is kind of telling you it needs. So all of those things are obviously, you know, present in both cases. So, so I think anyone who's listening to it, whether they are young, you know, in their teens or their, they feel like they're past that and they shouldn't care about clear skin anymore. All of those people should really, you know, heed to what you are saying. And again, I'm sure you have worked with people in many ages that, that, that you saw that, right?
- [16:39]
Kiki Athanas
Oh my goodness, all the time. Oftentimes. Well, I mean, when you're stressed and when you have whatever is happening in food is happening in life, right? So if you are prone to more problematic skin and you're having all these food issues, you're likely having skin issues too, right? And what you said, because, yes, I wish someone told me when I was younger, like, you're, you're kind of quote unquote, clearing your skin at the expense of what like you're, you might be, you know, actually making the, or speeding up your aging process just with drying and scripting and stripping your skin. And now even if I sometimes have a flare up, I never use quote unquote, like acne medication or anything like that or anything kind of acne focused. And that's why I love young skin care because it's, it always feels nourishing. And while there is, I get it sometimes that temptation to like, oh my goodness, I have a pimple. I need to like squeeze this out and try this out. And like, you just want to go totally mafia style on it, right? But you actually, you need to give it love, right? And you need to, you need to see it as, this isn't something that I just need to extract and burn, but rather, oh my goodness, my skin is upset. How do I make it feel better? How do I make sure that, you know, it's, it has hydration and calm and, and all of these things that it might not, you know, you might not wake up tomorrow and it'd be dried out, but you're slowly bringing it back to a state of balance and equilibrium. And that's the best thing that you can do for both clearing your skin and also, you know, anti aging. Although I know I shouldn't say anti aging now. It's like a triggering word to say anti aging, but you know what I.
- [18:16]
Amitai Eshel
Mean, to be honest, to be honest, I think anti aging as a word, first of all, it's getting what it deserves because it actually doesn't mean anything. But I'm sure there are, there are examples like that within dieting and food. But anti aging means the resistance to aging. And that, that actually does. It's not a biological process like we can, you know, we can compensate, we can support youthful function, whatever that is. But really the word, I think I don't agree with the triggering aspect of it, which is the aspect of you. It's the same thing that we talked about like you know, body shaming or orthorexia. I disagree with the fact that it's a triggering word because it makes you aware of the fact that you're aging. But I do agree with the fact that this word is nonsense. But, but we see it now. So, so like, like anything in our society, the word becomes unpopular. Unpopular. But the, but the underlying, the, the syntax remains. So now it's things like longevity. Like longevity, the word is being usurped because it doesn't mean, you know, extending the end of your life, which is what longevity is, whether you like it or not. Now it means, you know, there's companies saying longevity skincare, but longevity is starting to mean optimal performance or immediate results, which has nothing to do with longevity. Another word is, I see estheticians just, you know, saying, oh, oh, I'm not an anti aging, I'm pro aging. First of all, you are not pro aging. Pro aging means, do you support the fact that people should age? So you are not that for sure. I can tell you that unless you're doing a really bad job. But so, so what we coined like a while back and I think again, it can be triggering. But, but if you are triggered by it, do some intuitive. Skincare I believe is, is the word pro youth. So we actually trademarked Pro Youth because the idea is supporting youthful function. But that's a little rant about, about that. And I think it could be applied to, to eating as well. Like what you're trying to say.
- [20:26]
Kiki Athanas
I'm stealing it. I wonder if I can trademark it for me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Pro youth.
- [20:32]
Amitai Eshel
I love that because I, and I think we, I think there is something philosophical to say about like intuitive eating, which is you could argue that you are connecting to the, to the life sustaining instinct that you have as a being. Right?
- [20:51]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:52]
Amitai Eshel
And I. And I. I think it will prompt people to think about it more as a meditate. That's what I'm getting from you. And again, I'm a. I'm learning. I'm on purpose. Did I on purpose. Did not try to, like, form an opinion and educate myself prior to this podcast? Like, I'm learning that it is more of a. Of a meditative and mindfulness practice that is supported by. By food. It is centered around food. Like, it could be centered around breathing or monitoring your thoughts or temperature and feeling, rather than. As I kind of started by asking, rather than a diet choice.
- [21:31]
Kiki Athanas
Yes, you're absolutely right. With that said, I want to differentiate from just typical meditation or mindful eating practices that kind of, at least in my experiences, have been like, oh, you just need to calm down, right? Like, oh, oh, you're overeating. You just need to chill out, breathe, right? Get calm. That doesn't work if you have thoughts that are. Or beliefs operating in your gut that are contradictory. So, for instance, if there's part of you that believes, you know, oh, I have excess, right? I call it, like, storage, right? I have excess storage, and I want to get rid of it, right? And I want to release it. And so it's actually, you know, if I get hungry, that's fine. That's good. It's safe for me to be hungry. I have excess. But then there's another belief that you maybe learned from whoever on Instagram or whatever. Oh, never let yourself get hungry because then that'll spike your cortisol and, you know, you need to make sure that you're not undereating and, oh, my goodness, make sure that you have enough protein and boba. And then that creates chaos, right? And so it's not just about get calm. It's about get clear on strengthening the beliefs and that make eating. That put eating back in order, right? And so it's about getting clear on. Wait a second. If I have excess, it's safe for me to be hungry. I don't need to starve myself, but I need to wait for hunger. And if I do get hungry and can't eat right away, I don't need to stress out, right? And it's having those kinds of thought reminders where it's like, okay, yeah, no, I'm good. I'm hungry. There's no need to panic, right? Because the clearer that we get on rewiring those. Those neural pathways, those thought patterns, then we can actually come back to, okay, yeah, I'm good. I'm safe here versus just, okay, like, chew your food 15 times, right? Like, that doesn't work if you actually have food issues right now. For the person that doesn't really have food issues, but they're maybe, you know, eating too fast because they're. And. And a bit too much because they're just, you know, generally speaking, stressed and rushed, then maybe for them just saying, you know what? Take some more time, calm down, make it a more meditative experience, that's gonna bring them, you know, 95 to 100%. But for most people, and it's women that I work with, there's so many contradictory beliefs that they're. The pathway to calming down really requires rewrite. Rewriting some of these stories and just reminding yourself, like, wait a second. Food is to care for my physical body when hungry. It's not to help if I'm tired. It's not to help me bring me into the next moment. It's not a transitionary tool between me getting home and me doing this. And it's about reminding yourself in the moment. Wait a second. No, that's. Food isn't. Isn't meant to do this right now. I don't use food for fun, for pleasure. Of course food is pleasurable, but I don't use it as a source of pleasure in my life or as a break or et cetera.
- [24:33]
Amitai Eshel
Wow, that's very strong. I mean, you're reminding me, by the way, I am one of those people that eat extremely quickly. And that's because of the military. Like, in the military, that's one of the third. The first, I would say, like, stress tools that they put you through in order to strengthen your constitution or whatever they. You have a very, you know, you have very limited time to, like, interact with food. And I remember being very resistant to it, you know, the first few days, and then if. Switch flipped, and now really, I eat it, like, in five, 10 minutes.
- [25:08]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Amitai Eshel
So that's. That's very, very interesting. And to connect to what you're saying. Diet culture can be incredibly, I would say, like, sneaky and pervasive in a way where we don't exactly know where our, you know, like, our instincts end in our, you know, learned beliefs begin. So how can hodaling. How can someone start to kind of unlearn restrictive habits and instead maybe listen to their bodies, as you said, like, hunger and satiety cues. How. How can someone start, you know, dismantling that?
- [25:45]
Kiki Athanas
Yes. So first of all, in terms of hunger and satiety, I always say, and it's you know, I don't mean to be mean, but it's like, you know what it is? You know what hunger is? It's because every time women are like, yeah, I'm so disconnect from hunger, whatever. And I'm like, but, you know, if you're hungry deep down, right, It's a stomach growl, right? Usually, you know, nine times out of ten, there's some sort of growl. Okay, that's hunger, right? Oh, my goodness. But if I were to wait for hunger, the stomach growls, I'd barely eat. Yeah, you'd probably eat less than you are right now, right? And you'd lose weight because, you know, if you're carrying excess and then satiety, that's really Shirley from Energetics. She always calls it balance, right? You want to feel balanced. You want to eat to move you forward, not to weigh you down, right? If you're stretching the stomach, then you've eaten too much. If you feel full, then you've eaten too much. You don't, like, stuff your. Your laundry machine full. You need space for things to. To move around in there. And it's the same with our stomachs right now. In terms of unlearning diet culture, that's a process. I would say start by unsubscribe describing to anyone that's telling you what you should be eating, what you shouldn't be eating. But even if you do that, somehow it's probably gonna find you. I. I mean, it still finds me on. On my Instagram feed, but I would say just really start questioning the beliefs. So, you know, what, what. What's one food that everyone demonizes? Everyone can agree, regardless of what diet they're. They're, you know, following or whatever, they all agree sugar is bad. Of course sugar's bad. No one's going to fight you on that. I would. Right? Sugar is not bad. It's food. There's nothing wrong. If you want to eat sugar, eat it when you're hungry, stop when you feel balanced, and listen to your body. The reason why sugar gets a bad rap is that. Oh, but there's all these studies that show that it's bad. People are overeating sugar, and they're using sugar to fix something else, right? They're. They're eating sugar when they're stressed, they're eating sugar. Instead of actually addressing something, they're using sugar out of order. And then sugar gets the blame rather than, you know, the actual true cause, which is we heal through our thoughts and our actions, not through food. And so just really questioning, right. Whenever I'm speaking with a client and they're like, yeah, you know, well, I don't think I'm really restricting, but, like, of course I don't eat, like, carbs, like, every meal or whatever it is. And then I just ask them, why, what's wrong with carbs? Every meal? Oh, my God. If I ate carbs at every meal, I'd be fat. Do you believe that if you waited for hunger and then stopped at satiety that you'd be fat? No. Okay, so what if you ate carbs every time? Well, then I wouldn't be healthy. Well, what would your body want? Would your. Would your body just want carbs all the time? Well, probably not, right? And so it's really just about getting clear on the truth. And so whenever a rule surfaces, usually a soothing thought can just be, well, you know, if I. If I only ate when I was hungry and I stopped when I feel balanced, would I be unhealthy and fat? No. Okay, so then can I eat this? Yeah, eat it. Within the boundaries of your body, does your body want it? Right. And it's so important to have total and complete choice, because if you put a rule on something, then you want it. Right? It's. It goes with anything. Whenever you can't have something, then automatically you start wanting it. And so I never say. And a lot of even intuitive eating coaches, I see it happening, like, oh, just eat whole foods. Oh, I don't do rules. But make sure just. Just no processed foods. No, because then you're saying that you can't have processed foods. Let it come from a place of, okay, what would you like? Would you like this processed croissant or would you like this fresh croissant? Right. You can have whichever you want. Taste it, be present, be in the present moment, see which one you want. But if I say, oh, don't eat the processed one, then. Then I'm taking away choice. And choice is our identity. Choice is how we feel pleasure connected to self, happy. If you take away choice, then you take away happiness and hence depression or anxiety.
- [29:46]
Amitai Eshel
Interesting. Yeah, Actually, Tony Robbins talks about it. Tony Robbins says, you know, the. One of the keys to happiness is. Is growth. And the way that you experience growth is the. Is the increased autonomy to choose.
- [30:03]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Amitai Eshel
So very interesting. And, you know, one of the things that, again, I hear for what you're saying is a lot of the times within the boundaries of, like, skin health and nourishment, we tend to think about foods that support our skin health or you know, do the opposite. Which, which there is a point there. Like, you know, when I give talks about, you know, what ages you and what does not as far as your skin. I do say, hey, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to take any sides around diet fat because I think it's, it is as triggering as religion nowadays, especially for in the wellness world. Right. But I would say that here are things that are known to support skin health, like antioxidants or you know, omega 3 fatty acids or whatever. And here are things that are, that are known to not support it. But I think what I'm missing is saying, do you know what is the single most thing that is going to spike your blood glucose level and you know, destroy collagen in your skin all at once? It is stress and it is the spike of, the spike of cortisol that is driven through emotion, through emotion and obviously self doubt and, and internal, internal drama basically. And you know, that is significantly worse than eating a croissant like every time during a meal. If you have like, or not every time even like if, if, if it for you as like an emotional trigger that is going to age you more than, than the croissant.
- [31:43]
Kiki Athanas
Absolutely. And I think you can still offer the, you know, the food recommendations from, you know, a place of like, see if you like any of these foods. Right. It' are often known for many people, Right. You might want to explore if they feel good for you. Right. It's just like if, you know, the, if, if you hear all these studies or see all these studies, like, oh, pomegranates are the healthiest thing. This, this, this, this, this. Right. And it's like proven. Right. But then you're allergic to pomegranate. Do you still eat pomegranate because you're like, no, no, it's facts. They're healthy, I have to eat them. But every time you eat a pomegranate, you know, you, you break out in a rash, you wouldn't eat it, right. Ultimately it's your doctor asks you how do you feel? It's not. Well, are you following all of the rules based on all of the studies? Right.
- [32:29]
Amitai Eshel
So, but at the point where, where your doctor is telling you stop eating, please stop eating pomegranates, like that's the first time you're in, you're in emergency room, just could you please not eat any pomegranates? Yeah.
- [32:44]
Kiki Athanas
Right. Yeah. I mean it's, it's. I remember, I can't remember her name. But I read this book once about this woman who was, who was talking about Journey with kind of undieting and she was joking about how if someone, at one point in her dieting journey, if someone gave her a stick of butter or a banana because I guess she was on keto or whatever, she'd be like, okay, I'm gonna eat the stick of butter. Like that's, that's the healthier choice here, right? And she was like. And now looking back, it's like, obviously that's not the healthier choice. Not that, you know, we're, I'm here to say what's healthy or not, but it's like we do get so down these rabbit holes of like, oh, no, no, like this. And I've definitely did it when I was suffering. It's like, oh, no, I'm, you know, not gonna eat fruit in the morning. I'm just gonna eat, you know, this steak or whatever it is. And it's like, okay, yeah, it's not that steak is good or bad or fruit is good or bad, but you need to follow your body. But so often we just like, oh, perfect, I'm just gonna follow this rule. And of course it's been proven that it works. But if you're disregarding hunger, satiety and your unique taste preferences, it's not going to work for you.
- [33:50]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, that's, that's very, I mean, that's very smart and interesting. Hey there.
- [33:58]
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- [36:03]
Amitai Eshel
I do have a question about like, you are. You now are living in Greece, a place that I love. And anyone who's been to Greece probably love it. Who are you? The one guy that doesn't like Greece. Anyway. So the one thing in the Mediterranean that is extremely popular is the glorification of food as far as, like a communal bonding experience.
- [36:29]
Kiki Athanas
Yes.
- [36:29]
Amitai Eshel
And I wonder how you view it from the place of like, intuitive eating. Because, you know, obviously coming from Israel, in Jewish culture, I mean, that is when you traditionally gather, you know, literally it's called gathering around the table. Like, that is when you strengthen your bond with your, with your family, et cetera. And same in the Mediterranean. So how do you view, you know, a set time where the table's, you know, full of everything, really, and intuitive eating, how does it, how does do these two kind of appear to you?
- [37:08]
Kiki Athanas
They absolutely go together. And I know that oftentimes when clients first start with me, they're like, okay, so should I just always eat alone? Right? And I'm like, no, that's not, that's not real life. You don't just eat alone. I love eating with people and, but, you know, it's. First I'll ask them, I'll say, would you like to connect with yourself even when you're with others? Right. And if the answer is yes, then it's like, okay, great, then that's your first step. You remind yourself when you're with others at the table that, okay, I still get to connect with myself, even if I'm, you know, connecting and with others, it's reminding yourself. Eating is an intimate ritual that I have with myself. Right. No one else carries around the food that I'm going to put inside of me, so I'm going to choose foods that work for me. In terms of kind of practical strategies, I assume it's probably the same in Jewish tradition and Israel, where there's a whole bunch of plates, right. And it's kind of like you're just Kind of grabbing and picking and grabbing. I often suggest kind of plate your food beforehand. I know that that sometimes goes against a little bit tradition because everyone kind of wants to pick as they go. But if you can, without making it a big deal or without it ruining your meal, if you can kind of grab everything that you'd like and plate your food so that you can see visually, okay, I've created my plate, this is what I'm going to have. It's not that there's a rule that now you can't go back for seconds or anything like that, but at least then you have the visual cue of, okay, this is what I'm about to consume. And, and yeah, you eat slowly. You, for some people, they sort of need to take breaks and pause and check in and, and see how they're feeling. And so if that means taking a little break from conversation to just feel, check back in, it's a moment to moment experience. With that said, while some people that I work with, they, they have that struggle of, oh, I overeat when I'm with family or when I'm eating out, whatever. It's interesting because then there's another half of people. It's completely the opposite. And I was actually in that category. Whenever I'm with people and whenever I was, you know, eating out, it wasn't a problem at all. I would never overeat because I felt so connected to myself when I was with my family and with loved ones that why would I want to stuff myself with food? I want to be so present to this beautiful experience. And so the moment that my body is like, no, we're good here. It was so easy for me to respect that. Whereas if I was at home alone because I, you know, didn't feel connected to myself when I was by myself, then when I got that cue of, okay, we're good here, I'm like, no, I don't want to connect with myself. I want to keep eating. I want more pleasure, I want to keep going. So, you know, I say that so that not everyone thinks, oh, it's automatically just harder to eat out or with people or I should avoid that. No, it, it is very unique, right? And so if you're the kind of person that disconnects from self when they're with others, then the first step is really reminding yourself, wait a second, I want to, I want to connect with myself here. And then sometimes you have to go into the thoughts of, you know, oh, they're gonna think that I'm not eating enough, right? Is that true? And even if it is, like, okay, you're gonna make someone feel maybe tiny bit uncomfortable for a hot second while you say, like, no, I'm good here. Greeks tend to over.
- [40:06]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, I just think you need to have food with more interesting people a little bit.
- [40:11]
Kiki Athanas
No, exactly. Clearly, I will say Greeks do tend to. Or at least I don't know my family, hopefully they're not listening to this, but they do tend to overeat. There is this sort of like, oh, my goodness, look at all this food. We have to eat it all. Let's go. And then you hear afterwards like, oh, my God, I feel so full. Blah, blah, Right? And so I would use when people. Because then there is this encouragement to like, oh, my goodness. That's all you're eating. You need to eat more.
- [40:39]
Amitai Eshel
Exactly.
- [40:40]
Kiki Athanas
Lamb. Have more lamb.
- [40:42]
Amitai Eshel
The cue is not for you. The cue is looking at other people's plate and telling them they should eat more, you know?
- [40:49]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah, yeah. I just. But I would always just say, you know what? There's no more room in my tummy right now. And that's something that, like, no one can fight you on that. Like, because no one's like, yes, there is more room in your tummy. Do you know what I mean? It's like such a. I don't know. I love that verbiage because it really takes the power back of, like, I'm not insulting you. I'm not this. Like, it's not that the food is bad, but there's no more space right now. Maybe some space will open up. You know, Greek dinners go on for, like, seven hours. So maybe I'll be hungry, you know, later on in this dinner, but for now, there's, you know, there's no more space here.
- [41:22]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Yeah, for sure. We used to go for walks to make room for more food in the stomach, you know, So I feel what you're saying a hundred percent.
- [41:32]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah.
- [41:32]
Amitai Eshel
Fantastic. I mean, I think this has been a great conversation for listeners wanting to, like, dip their toes into intuitive eating. What are the. Some first steps they can take to. To kind of reconnect with their. You know, we spoke about hunger and fullness cues, visual cues. How do you start the journey?
- [41:53]
Kiki Athanas
Yes. So I would say for anyone listening that wants to begin, I would say all food eating occasions, moving forward, do them undistracted, make sure you are seated, the food is plated, and simply start there. When you eat, just eat. Right. When we just eat and we don't do anything else, guess what? We Are eventually we want to move on and do something else. Right. One of the main problems is food is so entangled in life that we don't get the key. We miss it because we're checking our phones and et cetera, et cetera. And so I would say the first step is simply just eat. And you'll notice that. And I hear it all the time. Oh, my God. So boring. Oh, my God. But after a little bit, I just want to. I just want to get up and do something else. Okay, yeah, that's your cue. You're done. Right? But instead of continuing to eat and then, you know, your mind goes somewhere else. The moment that you feel like, okay, this is boring, okay, then you don't want any more food. If, you know, if you were truly hungry and you were truly enjoying your food, you wouldn't be like, oh, my God, this is so boring, I can't stand it. Right? So I would say start there.
- [42:57]
Amitai Eshel
I've never thought about it like that. I mean, obviously there are studies showing that when you look, you know, when you watch tv, when children watch tv, when, when, when you are reading that, that you are, that you are eating, I think like 20 or 30% more. But I never thought of the, of the cue to be interest in food that when you lack, when you lose the interest, then you probably shouldn't eat anymore. This is actually very interesting. But beyond that, are there any, like, I would say, like, not, not necessarily like tools, but are there any exercises that help someone become, like, more mindful of how different foods make them feel or like, what are.
- [43:37]
Kiki Athanas
Yeah, so I think you're kind of referring to that thing that we were talking about around, like, taste preferences, right. Oftentimes I get questions about, like, but I don't know what foods feel good for me, number one. Well, you won't unless you let yourself get nice and hungry, right? If you don't feel truly, truly hungry, then how are you going to know what food is good for you? It's just like when you eat and you're kind of peckish, right? You're like, yeah, I'm going to have some chips or whatever, right? It's going to. Sure, yeah, I'll have that. When you're really hungry, do you want, like, chips or do you want, you know, a real nice, true meal? Right. And so I would say, number one, if you feel like you don't really know what your taste preferences are, okay. Are you letting yourself get hungry? And then when you are truly hungry, without having the panic, right. Calming the Panic of. Okay, it's okay. It's safe for me to be hungry. So often we get so worried. Oh, my God, I'm hungry. I'm going to overeat. Oh, my goodness. It's so bad. I'm hungry. No, just calming yourself down. It's safe for me to be hungry. Being hungry is natural. I'm not ruining my metabolism or whatever it is that I've been taught. It's fine. I'm hungry now. My body is ready to eat. What would I like? And then catching what? Just subtle. Subtle. Leaning in. Hmm. Right. And remembering it's not. Our taste preferences are not. Okay. I'm hungry. I need avocado toast. Right. No, it's okay. I would like something. Right. We have preferences. Right.
- [44:57]
Amitai Eshel
Okay.
- [44:58]
Kiki Athanas
What, what, what would feel good for me right now? And then usually we do have. Okay, well, I have this in the fridge. Okay. Yeah, that would feel good. And then. And then oftentimes a rule bubbles up. Oh, my goodness. But I can't have that because that's so fattening. Or that's this or that' and then you just soothe the thought. Right? Nope. As long as I follow the boundaries of my body, I will be healthy and slim. I don't need to follow external rules. They're not relevant for me.
- [45:22]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, for sure. That's. That's super. That's very cool. I. To close. To close. We have a hard stop. You, you, you actually have a hard stop, which I really want to respect in about 10 minutes. And since we were going to, I think, very interesting places in this conversation, I want to, I want to consolidate. You know, let's give a very short, like, sales pitch, if you would, or key takeaways. I'll. I'll ask you a couple questions. And so what are some of the top benefits someone might see both physically and mentally after practicing intuitive eating?
- [46:00]
Kiki Athanas
Number one, a calm gut.
- [46:02]
Amitai Eshel
Right.
- [46:02]
Kiki Athanas
Which, which, what does that result in? A smaller gut, clearer skin. Right. And then a calm mind that has space for spaciousness. Right. And spaciousness is where creativity happens. The brain is not meant. The head brain is not meant to think about food. That's why we have a stomach.
- [46:23]
Amitai Eshel
Wow.
- [46:24]
Kiki Athanas
It has a feeling. Right. We can't get full in our head, but we can get full in our stomach. And so now you get your head brain back to do all of the creative things that you'd like to do because it's not clouded with thoughts of eating or thoughts of about not eating or what you can eat or what you can't. And so you get to be you. You get to. To actually connect with your real identity.
- [46:42]
Amitai Eshel
I think everyone loves this answer, aside from chefs. They're like, oh, shit, I'm in a loop. My creativity is food. Anyway, so. So actually you kind of answered the second question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Let's see if we can. If we can hone in. So how does intuitive eating contribute to a lifestyle that enhances beauty and wellness in a sustainable way?
- [47:05]
Kiki Athanas
I believe we are the most beautiful when we are the most ourselves. Right. And we're taking the absolute best care of ourselves, really. Like, regardless if you're rich and can buy all the things or do all the surgeries or whatever it is, or if you're, you know, not what is the best way to become beautiful, happy, and taking impeccable care of yourself and that. That is a lifestyle shift. It's not. This isn't a plan that you're on or off. It's a way of living. It's a way of being with yourself moment to moment, and giving yourself what it is that you need. And life is hard, but eating is not. Eating is. Nice.
- [47:44]
Amitai Eshel
Nice. Okay, last segment. We actually. You're the first person Hooray. That we have this segment with. So we have our VIP customers at Yang Goose. It just means that they, you know, they bought so many times, et cetera, and some of them randomly. We actually had a newsletter going out to, like, a specific segment, introducing the subject of this, of this conversation and inviting them to ask questions. So the questions are, you know, they, again, they cover a lot of what we spoke about. But you are, you are the. The pilot of this, of this.
- [48:23]
Kiki Athanas
Oh, my God, I love it.
- [48:24]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. So the first, we have only two questions. The first is, does intuitive eating increase include guidelines for skin health and hydration?
- [48:32]
Kiki Athanas
So not specifically guidelines in the sense of. For skin health, but I think the entire intuitive eating system, at least the one that I teach, is going to support skin health because it supports lowering stress and. And eating within the boundaries of your body, which is the best way for skin health. And same deal with hydration. I'm also not here to tell you have to drink, you know, x bottles of water or whatever it is. It's listening to your body. And oftentimes I get questions around, oh, should I, you know, I'm going to intuitively eat, but of course, I just need to, like, drink as much water as possible. Right? It's like, no, you. You never need to just do what, you know, someone tells you to do. Do what feels good for you. And drinking water feels good. You don't need to overdo it.
- [49:16]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Kiki Athanas
So, yeah, I would say that they're within. I wouldn't call them guidelines, but. But they're within the system.
- [49:21]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. Okay, great. Second question is, how can I deal with cravings intuitively without feeling guilty? This is a lady named Donna, which is. She asked, like a bunch of. She always has, like, questions after podcasts. So shout out to Donna. And the fact that she gets asked question before. Yeah. So how do I deal with cravings intuitively without feeling guilty?
- [49:44]
Kiki Athanas
Okay, so usually when I hear the word craving, it's coming from someone that has. That's following some sort of rule, right? Because craving, usually it's like, okay, so you're judging it as bad. And why is it bad? Oh, because I shouldn't eat it. Right. So first of all, really look at. Are you following any rules of eating and how can you release those knowing that if you eat within the boundaries of your body, you can eat whatever it is that feels good for you and still be thin and healthy? I would change the verbiage from craving to, oh, my. Is my body asking for this? Right. Or is it my mind? Usually a craving is in the mind. It's like, oh, my goodness, I need this. I need this. I need this. If it feels like a need and urgent, then it's not hunger. Because hunger is calm and it's a slow build and it's not urgent. Right? And so if you. You are thinking of this thing, right? Then. Okay, I like that. Right. Let's say it's a chocolate bar. Oh, my God, I'm having a craving for a chocolate bar. Okay, what is it that I. Now, first thing, am I hungry? Right? If you're hungry. Okay, let me just calm the stress here. Hunger is safe. Okay. Would I like to have a chocolate bar? Yes. Okay, perfect then good. We're moving on. Usually a craving is you're not hungry, right? Oh, my God, I need a chocolate bar, right?
- [51:00]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [51:00]
Kiki Athanas
Okay, so you're. So you're having a craving, and first, am I hungry? If the answer is no, then you need to look at what am I trying to avoid right now? What feeling or action do I not want to feel or think or do right now, Right. It's always. It's an escape, Right. And then also knowing I can have the chocolate bar when I'm hungry. Right. But right now I'm not hungry, so I don't need to think about food. Right. Oftentimes, cravings are a Way to lift us up out of reality because we're so addicted to the intensity of always doing, of always being intense, intense, intense. And so it's about softening into. No, no, no. This isn't intense. This is just my life. This is just calm. This isn't boring. I don't need food to carry me through to the next moment. I can do that with my thoughts and my actions. So really looking at what am I trying to avoid here and reaffirming, I don't need to use food here. I can. I can do this myself. And when I'm hungry and I want that food, I can absolutely have it.
- [51:57]
Amitai Eshel
Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, listen, we have, like, four minutes, actually. You know, you start another conversation in four minutes. So let's, let's. So first of all, I'm inviting you to share any, you know, your website social media handles. And also I'd love a recommendation to any relevant books or resources that you. That you have.
- [52:20]
Kiki Athanas
So my website is kiki athanis.com. it's my very shortened version of my very long Greek name. And my social media on both TikTok and Instagram is Kiki Underscore Athanis. And in terms of resources I actually put together, not too long ago, I called it. I called it my Skinny Bitch Inspo list. Hopefully you can swear on this podcast or if not, you can, like, you know, blurp it out. But I basically put together 10 people on the Internet that I actually think are inspiring to follow and actually do help you connect with your true self and aren't just, you know, spreading out rules. Because I know I joke about, oh, you need to unsubscribe from this, unsubscribe for that. So I thought it would be interesting to kind of put together a resource list of people that I actually do think you should subscribe to. And so. And that's also available, and it's free and it's on my site. And yeah, I'm trying to think of any other resources, to be honest. I like to always make things super simple. Like, the resource is you, right? For this one, it's like, you don't need to read another book. You can throw out the nutrition book. You don't have to watch another webinar like, beautiful, get hungry, get calm, and all the answers are inside of you.
- [53:28]
Amitai Eshel
Like the shirt, you know, get what was it? Something, something and move on. What's it?
- [53:33]
Kiki Athanas
Oh, no, all I'm thinking of is keep calm and carry on.
- [53:36]
Amitai Eshel
That's the one I meant. Okay. I completely ruined it. Okay. Fantastic. I would like. First of all, this conversation for me was so interesting and so surprising how interesting it was. To be honest, it's really cool. I would encourage anyone listening to kind of reflect, reflect on their own eating habits and how intuitive eating might support their journey to healthier, more youthful, more vibrant skin and overall well being. I, I love this conversation. So, Kiki, thank you so, so, so much.
- [54:11]
Kiki Athanas
Thank you so much. I love chatting with you.
- [54:13]
Amitai Eshel
All right, thank you, everyone. Take.