← Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Melissa Cano: How to Actually Reprogram Your Skin to Act Younger (Forget Collagen!)
00:58:04
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- [00:00]
Amitaj Eshel
Foreign. Welcome back to Biohacking Beauty, the podcast where we simplify the science of youthful skin aging and explore the most effective strategies for looking and feeling your best at any age. I'm your host, Amitaj Eshel, co founder and CEO of Yang Goose Skincare, where we're all about merging innovation with skincare to help you age smarter. Today's episode is an exciting deep dive into the most powerful longevity molecule in the biohacking space, called spermidine. And joining us is someone with an incredible scientific background, Melissa Kano, the director of science at Longevity Labs. Melissa is a biochemist and a molecular biologist with over a decade of experience in cellular metabolism, bioenergetics, and advanced biotechnology. Her work has taken her from the cutting edge of algal research in France to gene editing and metabolic engineering in Colorado. And now she's translating that expertise into real world solutions for health and longevity. We're going to talk about what spermidine is, how it supports cellular renewal through autophagy, and what that means for your skin, your energy, and your overall vitality. You'll also learn where to find it naturally, why levels decline as we age, and whether supplementation is the right move for you. Melissa will also explain how her background in science connects directly to skincare, and why supporting your cells at a metabolic level is the key to healthy, resilient skin as you age. So if you're curious about how to biohack your beauty from within, this episode is packed with practical insights you can start using today. Let's get started. Melissa, welcome to the Biohacking Beauty podcast.
- [02:19]
Melissa Kano
Hi. Thanks for having me.
- [02:22]
Amitaj Eshel
So, Melissa, let's start from the very beginning. Let's start with what is spermidine and why should we care about it in the context of aging?
- [02:33]
Melissa Kano
Right?
- [02:34]
Amitaj Eshel
And even skin aging? Maybe.
- [02:36]
Melissa Kano
Yes. I mean, definitely all part of it. So spermidine is a very small molecule. It's water soluble, It. It's found in every living organism on the planet, and it's an essential molecule, meaning you could not live without it. If I were to be magically able to remove all the spermidine in your body right now, you would die, basically. So there is no cell life without spermidine because it enables a lot of cellular process, including proliferation of cells. So the name of it, I mean, I. You probably guess where it comes from. It does come from sperm because it was first identified in sperm by the guy that invented the microscope. Probably left alone too long in a room.
- [03:19]
Amitaj Eshel
Van Leeuwenhoek, that.
- [03:21]
Melissa Kano
Exactly. That guy in the 17th century. And probably, I mean you can imagine a guy left too long with a microscope, eventually he's going to look at salmon and dirt and he saw some crystals in it that were later attributed to spermidine. So a molecule, when it's high concentration tends to crystallize in the right conditions. And so it is present in sperm because it's a molecule that is essential to prot. To protect the cell, to keep it useful, basically to rejuvenate it. So that's why it's essential if find in high concentration in all germ lines, like including wheat germ, which is the highest source of spermidine. So spermidine is in your cells at all time, it is in your blood, it is in your tissues, and you ingest it every day in your food. So you actually rely. About a third of your daily needs of spermidine come from your diet. Another third is produced by your gut microbiome and the last third is produced by your own cells in your body. And so it's a very important molecule in the context of aging too. And that's been shown in the last 15 years. There's like a whole field about it now with spermidine and it's anti aging properties because it activates a process that is called autophagy. So autophagy is an essential process also cellular process. So can imagine your cell being this encapsulation of all the metabolism that's going on, all the chemical reactions that make your cells alive or a single cell, but including a collection of cells. And so there's a lot going on in a cell at all time. Protein gets synthesized, a ton of reactions happen.
- [05:13]
Amitaj Eshel
I think I. I think just to. Just to maybe have a nice time like imagining how this goes, we can really talk about, you know, like the skin, like so for example, what's going on in a skin cell or, or in a fibroblast or, or you know.
- [05:28]
Melissa Kano
Right. So I mean even in a skin cell, right, you have like chemical reactions happening all the time for the cell to perform what it's supposed to do. And, and a lot of proteins get synthesized at all times. They're gonna perform specific roles inside, but they get old, right? I mean you produce one and then after depends which proteins, I mean they get damaged or they perform their, their reaction. I mean nothing is forever even in a cell. And you need to get rid of those because otherwise you can imagine it's just some like junks accumulating in a very small space that is gonna impair the proper functioning of everything. Everything else. So without autophagy you wouldn't be able to get rid of this and maintain a proper cellular function. So you have autophagy happening all the time in all the cells of your body and it's absolutely necessary. And what happens is when you start getting older, the autophagy process is not as efficient. And that's when you start having a lot of age related disease linked to an impaired autophagy. In the context of skin, for example, your cells don't renew as well or as fast. Right?
- [06:37]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, yeah. You know, I sometimes give the example that this is not necessarily like just a garbage can or the garbage truck. It's more like a chimney. It's more like a fire in a chimney because you are eliminating material. But the chimney also pulls the dirt, but also stokes the flame. You know, the better autophagy functions, the better our cells in more useful but better ourselves going to function as well. Right. And that, and is that why it affects so many other, you know, youthful processes? So many like hallmarks of aging is that because of that, you know, elimination.
- [07:17]
Melissa Kano
Of their waste 100%. So the spermidine is mainly going to be the main actor of triggering autophagy. And because it is central to the cellular life of any cells of your body, it affects all the parts of your body. So the skin obviously, but it's also related to how youthful your, the cells in your heart are, are going to be. So that's why we know there are also cardioprotective effect of supplementing with spermidine because it helps just renew all, all those cells. But beyond, I would say something that also gets, that is disregarded sometimes that it's not only an autophagy inducer, spermidine is now really considered an antioxidant as well. Meaning that it's able to scavenge reactive oxygen species. And we know that in the context of skin that's extremely important. I mean there's a lot of other antioxidant that we found in a lot of formulation including vitamin C. Sperminin is actually more potent as an antioxidant than vitamin C. Um and it's also also has anti inflammatory properties. And so like it really is this trifecta I feel like autophagy for sure, but also antioxidant and anti inflammatory properties that make it a, a powerful anti aging component.
- [08:37]
Amitaj Eshel
That's interesting. And, and within the context of you know, we say spermidine. Spermidine, Spermidine. But it's a little bit more complicated than just spermidine. Right. Because a lot of the discussions that, you know, Longevity Labs, AKA Spermidine, Life and us, we've had along the years is kind of trying to explain the difference between synthetic isolated spermidine and a broad spectrum polyamine complex. So maybe we could talk about, you know, spermidine as a polyamine and why does it work better in a context of, of supporting a supportive complex.
- [09:17]
Melissa Kano
Right. So, okay, spermidine is a very small molecule and isolated by itself. It's, it's like just a polyamine. So meaning it has more than one amino group. It's actually derived from amino acid. And but it doesn't come by itself like nothing is, is just like pure in nature. And you actually interconvert in your cells in other polyamine, including putresin and spermine. And so the thing you, I mean as you mentioned, you will find out there on the market, synthetic form of spermidine that are chemically synthesized. And it's pure, it's gonna be pure spermidine. And the reason I would not recommend using those is because first, sometimes they're way too high in concentration, which actually can be deleterious. They're not in the range of the dietary limits that we have on a daily basis. But also there is some benefits to those other polyamide. So the whole spectrum from spermidine, spermine, putresine is, is really important. The three of them as is. Like you don't want to just take one isolate of this. The other thing I would say is that the way it's synthesized, the manufacturing of itself, you're going to have other junk inside. Like what we do at Longevity lab is that we have a natural extract. As I said, it's found in every living organism, therefore in all food. But the highest source of it is going to be wheat germ. And that's what we use in Longevity labs as a source to generate this extract that is almost just a water soluble extract from wheat germ that is extremely rich in spermidine.
- [10:56]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, well, you know, I understand, I understand what you are saying. And you know, our initial interest in spermidine actually wasn't in spermidine, it was in spermine. Because most of the research around the benefits of polyamide in the skin is actually spermine.
- [11:14]
Melissa Kano
So yeah, so there, there actually overlap in a lot of their properties. I would say. However, spermidine does remain and because they interconvert in each other, it's hard. You know, once you either have a topical application, your cells are going to absorb it, they may interconvert in sperminin. Anyway. Spermidine, though, to this day is the direct inducer of autophagy. So the cell renewal we've been talking about because it literally chemically attach itself to a translation factor, which is a protein that is going to activate all the bunch of genes you're going to need to make this autophagy process happen. So spermine is also great for other. I mean, as an autophagy inducer, but it's going to be indirect because it's going to need to be interconverted to spermidine. But it still is like part of the good tools of the polyamines. For sure.
- [12:12]
Amitaj Eshel
I understand. And before we move on, there are newer evidence showing that it is amazing for mitochondrial health, right?
- [12:19]
Melissa Kano
Absolutely. So the reason for that is because autophagy is actually a generic term to talk about recycling of components. But what is it going to recycle? Technically in this autophagy, it's going to recycle proteins, lipids, even DNA, get rid of pathogen, but it's also going to recycle organelles. So organelles including mitochondria. So spermid does not only activate autophagy, it activates mitophagy. And the other thing it does through this translation factor I mentioned before, that it's going to attach itself to and activate this translation factor is going to trigger the synthesis of essential mitochondrial protein. They're essential for the function of the mitochondria. So it does directly enhance mitochondrial function as well. So not only does it help renew proper functioning mitochondria, it helps get rid of the old ones. So it directly impacts mitochondrial health for sure.
- [13:18]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. It's funny that this, you know, I think one of the talking points really, I, I do think so. That should be discussed more in, in longevity science is less focusing on specific mechanisms and more trying to find a. A molecule molecules that act more upstream, which means they affect many processes at once. That's why I'm in love with spermidine. Aside from. We'll talk about with skin benefits a bit more later. But that's why I'm in love with spermidine, because I'll give an example. So if you don't know, it's a good time to tell you that there is a company, the company that made a postbiotic called Mitopure famous. Yeah, I'm sorry the postponed cost your lithium, but the company is. No matter. Nestle invested, Nestle bought them. So they are owned by Nestle. That's why they become popular because Nestle can pay you know, Andrew Huberman to talk about them or whatever.
- [14:15]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [14:15]
Amitaj Eshel
And then L'Oreal invested $66 million in that company.
- [14:19]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [14:20]
Amitaj Eshel
So that's why they have skincare knuckles, because L'Oreal invested in it. But really it does only it purports to do only one thing, which is mitophagy.
- [14:28]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [14:29]
Amitaj Eshel
And it's crazy because, I mean, how can they not, how could they just pass next to the proverbial incredible molecule in the room and not go not so crazy on that? It's like it covers that base and so many more bases. Yeah. Obviously, talking about spermidine, that's, I mean, I'm in love with spermidine. I think it's the most important longevity molecule there is.
- [14:50]
Melissa Kano
Absolutely.
- [14:51]
Amitaj Eshel
So I wonder, and that's a question we, we obviously get asked a lot around the conversation of nad, but why does spermidine levels decline with age?
- [15:03]
Melissa Kano
Right. So there's not like an exact answer. It might be a combination of factors. First, you may not absorb it as well through your food, so may not pass the digestive tract that easily to get into your bloodstream to then get distributed to all your cells. That's one thing. Microbiome also changes with age. So a lot like I said, a third of your daily needs of spermidin, they come from your microbiome. So it could be also that it's not as efficient as producing enough to maintain proper levels. The third aspect of it, there is an enzyme that is rate limiting to the synthesis in your cell because that's the other. The last third of a daily needle. Spermidine comes from your internal production from arginine, which is an amino acid. And this, the, the levels of this enzyme decrease with age. Like a lot of things, right. I mean, they just don't get produced as well as, as we fall apart little by little in life. So you become more reliant on your dietary intake because that's what's really going to make you have the edge on the decrease of your internal production and your gut microbiome. So that's why we say when you get later in life. And later in life, unfortunately starts not that late. It starts already in your mid-30s, late-30s. That's when we start seeing decrease of spermidine levels and that's when supplementation can become handy in maintaining levels high enough that you have an efficient autophagy at all time to maintain all those proper cellular function going on.
- [16:45]
Amitaj Eshel
So, and I think so, So I want to talk about studies, but I think it's Important to note that that's at least from, from Herbert, which is the found co founder of Longevity Lab. He told me that there is a new study. I don't know if it's out yet or it's still in the works, but that shows that you need spermidine even on the, on the, in, in the epigenetic or the genetic level in order to even express autophagy where, meaning that people obviously are doing long fasts or water fasts or whatever in order to trigger autophagy. But if you don't have enough spermidine in circulation, you're not even going to trigger it even if you, you know, fasted.
- [17:23]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [17:23]
Amitaj Eshel
Until you die.
- [17:25]
Melissa Kano
Yeah. So I'm happy you brought this up because this is a very, I mean excellent paper. Was published by. And it's out. It was Published last August, August 2024 A Nature Cell Biology, which is great journal as you know. And it showed in this paper that when you fast actually in. So it was showed in human, in the paper in humans that when they fast, when they go through a caloric restriction, so you don't ingest food for say I think it was 12 to 16 hours in the paper, your internal spermidine levels increase and that's the link between you triggering the autophagy process. So just to rewind a little bit. So why do people do fast? Because when your cells are not getting the nutrients they need, they're going to start relying on internal mechanism to recycle what's there and make things anew. They're going to say, okay, I don't have a lot of energy, what can I do with what's inside to continue functioning properly? And that's when the autophagy process kicks in. So most of the benefits of fasting come from triggering autophagy. And what this paper really showed very well in humans, but also like in model organisms in the same paper is that when you trigger, when you go through a caloric restriction or fasting you, the spermidine levels increase so the cell produce more spermidine to trigger this autophagy. So spermidine is not just a trigger of autophagy, it actually is one of the main enablers link right between the caloric restriction, the fasting and the autophagy process. So because of that, spermidine is considered a caloric restriction mimetic. So you probably heard this term and there are others that are known that in this category, like rapamycin, metformin. But what do they do really? They directly affect pathway one is going to be mtor. So rapamycin is going to affect mtor?
- [19:26]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [19:26]
Melissa Kano
Metformin is going to go through the AMPK pathway. So all those pathway at the end of the day they converge down the same thing which is triggering autophagy. So they also affect other factor that are going to affect the expression of a bunch of genes. But really the main process that is going to be triggered by the either inhibition or activation of those pathways is going to be the autophagy process. So at the end of the day they all converge into the same spot that recycling.
- [19:57]
Amitaj Eshel
So when we look at let's say rapamycin and we look at its, its effects on mtor which lead to elimination of senescent cells. Is it through the, the. The activation of autophagy?
- [20:08]
Melissa Kano
Exactly, exactly that.
- [20:10]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. Very cool.
- [20:11]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [20:11]
Amitaj Eshel
So where are we now as far as like spermidine in, in, you know, spermidine and longevity.
- [20:19]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [20:19]
Amitaj Eshel
In animal and human studies where, where, how many, what, what is the, has the burden of evidence been met? Like how far along are we right in understanding that?
- [20:31]
Melissa Kano
So I mean I would say in the last what like or 20, 25 probably in the last 10 years there's been about 1500 papers published on spermidine and its effect not only on anti aging but also the, the, the benefits on, in general on health.
- [20:53]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [20:54]
Melissa Kano
I would say that it is clear now that in animal models, so flies, mice, worms, that supplementing with spermidine extends the lifespan of those organisms from 5 to 20%. Which is quite significant.
- [21:12]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [21:12]
Melissa Kano
What we don't have obviously is the same comparable studies in humans for obvious reasons because. Well, first time and also ethical reasons as well. It's, it's going to be hard to perform the same experiments on humans. What we do know though is that we have epidemiological studies that have shown that diets that are high in spermidine are correlated to increased lifespan in people that consume foods that are high in spermidine.
- [21:41]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [21:42]
Melissa Kano
From I think 5 to 10 years extension depending on, on the people. Again that is correlation not just not a direct causation but it is important to note that in the so called blue zone or that consume or in Mediterranean diet, spermidine is very high because again it's going to be found in wheat germ, which obviously is not the base of most people diets, but it's also very high in legumes, in cruciferous, in soybeans. What did I miss anyway? All the foods that we know we should be eating in the first place. That we all know now that are the base of a healthy lifestyle are very rich in spermidine. So to go back to your question, where are we?
- [22:25]
Amitaj Eshel
Algae.
- [22:26]
Melissa Kano
Algae too, yes. So you can also make spermidine from. From algae, for sure.
- [22:31]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [22:31]
Melissa Kano
Where are we now? What we're missing, I think is more clinical trials. The thing is, you need a lot of money to make clinical trials. We have about a dozen, a dozen of those with our specific wheat germ extract at Longevity Lab. So with this knife extract. And we've seen improvement in humans. So I'm talking about clinical trials in cognitive functions, in people that had cognitive decline. We've seen improvement. So we have a clinical trial that's shown improvement in the texture of the skin. So relevant more like to what you guys do. And that was the origin of this relationship. Right. Because of like the autophagy process, et cetera, we've seen improvement in. So one thing that is not completely out. I don't know, hopefully I don't get. I don't get shouted out for talking about it. But we have like, upcoming studies that will be published soon. They're in peer review right now. But, like, the preprints are there, so I think it's okay to talk about it. That show also an alleviation of depression.
- [23:34]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:35]
Melissa Kano
So believe it or not, like, depression is linked to disrupted polyamine metabolism. And we've. We've shown that supplementing with spermidine in the span of three months of supplementation was able to alleviate depression symptoms to the same level as other antidepressants. So that's another thing. The other one that's very interesting also is the. It boosts the immune system. So that's another study that will come out later this year. Hopefully in the term of aging, I think we need more clinical trials, especially in terms of dosing. So, yeah, spermidine, the spermidine proposed, the supplement is very much into the range of what you should be taking every day in your diet. So at best it doubles what you should be taking or less. But it would be interesting to go a little bit more or like to do a range of saying, okay, we take two times, three times, four times. Do you see an increase in the effects whether it's on like the skin. Right. Or cardio protection, neuroprotection effects. So that would be, I think, the next frontier for the use of spermidine or like the, the research, as far as it goes. For sure.
- [24:49]
Amitaj Eshel
I understand, yes. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, Skin aging mechanisms because we do talk a lot about biohacking from the inside out in this show. So how, what does spermidine actually do to the skin when we supplement with it?
- [25:09]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [25:10]
Amitaj Eshel
You know, as far as like collagen production or maintenance, skin cell turnover, hydration, what's going on there?
- [25:17]
Melissa Kano
So, I mean, there are actually papers and we can link them with the show that have shown that supplementation of spermidine helps it actually upregulates. So meaning it increases the expressions of two type of collagen proteins, so type one and type three. So it does improve the production of collagen. So that's one thing. It improves also the production of elastin, which is another component below your, your skin surface to help basically maintain the structure. So you can imagine like a brick and mortar type of structure below your skin that helps it plump and young. So it does regulate the expression of the genes also necessary for this in terms of hydration. It also helps retain, because it protects the skin barrier is strengthening by increasing the production of some lipids as well. And the turnover also that either allows by recycling the, the old stuff and making cells anew, it helps strengthen your skin barrier. So it's going to help retain more moisture. So from the inside out, it's definitely going to help maintain a healthy skin. But also in the same way, a topical application is going to have a similar effect because, I mean, you know that better than anyone, your skin absorbs, I mean, a lot of things. Right. And spermidine is a molecule small enough that, yeah, it is absorbed.
- [26:43]
Amitaj Eshel
And of course we have, as you mentioned before, the reducing of oxidative stress and inflammation, which in the skin is important both, you know, from the outside in and from the inside out.
- [26:54]
Melissa Kano
Absolutely. And so, and there are other papers that show that very well, that it helps get rid of hydrogen peroxide, which is one of those reactive oxygen species very well. And that it helps also, yeah, wound closure. So there was an experiment that was done in mice where they showed that topical application of sperm in as well as consumption, so through overall intake, going through your bloodstream helps accelerate the healing of wounds in at least in the mice models because of all those benefits. So definitely very important and something cool.
- [27:31]
Amitaj Eshel
About skin is that, you know, as animals grow larger, it's very difficult to infer, you know, the, the action of a, you know, of a drug on small organism rather compared to a larger organism. But in the, you know, when we discuss a cell like the skin, actually the, the correlation is is, or the inference is much Easier. Right. Like we can see much more consistent results going from small to big, if you will. Any. So you mentioned the study kind of looking at both topical and oral. Are there any other studies looking at, you know, topical versus or topical and oral spermidine?
- [28:11]
Melissa Kano
So in terms of skin, in terms of dermatological use.
- [28:15]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. For, for skin. Yeah.
- [28:17]
Melissa Kano
So that's the thing. There is not like 1500 papers on the skin and spermidine. So that's another frontier. Also to go back to your previous question, like where do we stand? I feel like there would be so much more to do with spermidine and topical application. We've seen in with our own product, we've done a clinical trials where we've seen an improvement in the texture of the skin in wrinkles after topical application. For sure. One of the study I mentioned also did show that there was an improvement in hydration in elasticity and reduction in, in, I mean water loss, transdermal water loss, which is related to hydration. Right. So as far as skin goes, that's pretty much at least what I'm aware of. I know there is other part, but it's always related to the same thing because it's so such a central process to cellular health, this autophagy process that it's also, there's a very recent paper that showed that topical application or at least injection in the gums in, in mice that had gum disease helped basically get rid of the senescent cells and help reproduce so the, the gum tissue. Right. So I mean when you. It's kind of part of the skin, it's a bit more under, but it's like related. Right. So that's another study that was very interesting.
- [29:43]
Amitaj Eshel
Well, that's, that's how red light therapy started or kind of got its, got most of its hype is by looking at intraoral applications for maybe 10 years. It was mainly. Yeah. And then people that often quote NASA saying, oh, NASA used red light. It's mainly not NASA using red light per se. It's NASA quoting the fact that you can, you could use red light or low level laser therapy to.
- [30:12]
Melissa Kano
Red light is great. I try to do it a couple of times a week. It's. I, I feel like it's helping like in the skin, skin care in general, for sure.
- [30:22]
Amitaj Eshel
Apropos. You know, there, there is. You mentioned the fact that our gut microbiome is really supporting our spermidine levels. There is also our skin microbiome that really enjoys the application of spermidine. Right?
- [30:38]
Melissa Kano
Yeah, absolutely. So actually you're probably referring to one of the studies that showed that they were applying so an extract coming from bacteria that were. So a lot of bacteria produce a lot of spermidine.
- [30:51]
Amitaj Eshel
Was it streptococcus? What? Was it bacteria?
- [30:54]
Melissa Kano
Yeah, it was Streptococcus species and that applying it. So I don't remember if they were applying it directly or if they were extracting it, but nevertheless, I mean, it's linked to the production of spermidine by those bacteria that was helping with those, those parameters we were talking about, like elasticity and hydration, et cetera. So, yeah, the gut mic. I mean, the gut microbiome is one thing, but you also have your, your skin microbiome as well. I would say, though I am not really aware and I don't know the extent of the literature about the actual production of spermidine by your skin microbiome.
- [31:29]
Amitaj Eshel
So I agree. I don't know that either. And, you know, skin microbiome is definitely a different animal, no pun intended, than the gut. But I think it's really cool that I think this is a cornerstone study showing that, you know, topical application of spermidine without needles, without anything else has improved, you know, skin characteristics that are associated with aging. So there is, there is a really cool correlation there. And, and would it, would it help, however, gut healthy as us, you know, consuming polyamines such as, you know, spermidine, spermine, putresine, would it support gut health or improve gut health?
- [32:10]
Melissa Kano
Yes. Yeah, yeah. There are some studies out there that shows like, that supplementation spermidine does help repopulate your gut microbiome with the healthy one. So, like, basically help treat dysbiosis, which is like the overtaking of the bad bacteria with the good ones. So we're not the actual mechanism as to how does that happen. Like, but it's not exactly clear, but we do know that spermidine helps with the gut health with like, just repopulating with good bacteria that also produce spermidine in the end as well. So it's kind of a virtuous cycle that. So one thing that's very interesting to look into is not only supplementing with spermidine as is, but also supplementing with the probiotic that also produce spermidine to, to help maintain like this healthy, virtuous cycle of spermidine. Good bacteria that produce spermidine, but then.
- [33:06]
Amitaj Eshel
You know, so is a specific probiotic.
- [33:08]
Melissa Kano
Or so, I mean, that I'm aware of, there is none. But like, that we know of some bacteria that can Produce good sperm, good amount of spermidine.
- [33:17]
Amitaj Eshel
So, okay, maybe something in the future.
- [33:20]
Melissa Kano
Maybe. Yeah.
- [33:25]
Amitaj Eshel
Hey there.
- [33:26]
C
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- [35:30]
Amitaj Eshel
So let's say someone's listening. You know, they're just starting out. What's your ideal protocol for someone that is new to spermidine? You know, whether they're using, you know, maybe they like our skin care and they, they understand, hey, you know, a lot of the benefits I'm getting is because of spermidine, right? Internally, what is your ideal protocol?
- [35:50]
Melissa Kano
So just to, to give a bit of sense of amounts in your food every day you're going to intake about 6 to 12 milligram of spermidine. Uh, could go a little bit higher if you are in the Mediterranean type of diet, like the very good one. But let's say 6 to 12, we have like supplements that start at 1 milligram. And the very first clinical trials we've done were done at this dosage. So 1 milligram of daily spermidine supplementation and we had already seen very positive effects. Now we have products that also go to 2 milligram, 3 milligram and the maximum dose we have is 6 milligram which more or less correspond what you should be in taking every day.
- [36:35]
Amitaj Eshel
Got it.
- [36:36]
Melissa Kano
What I would say is that when you want to kickstart your journey on a supplement and again, keep in mind it's a supplement that is not foreign to your cells. They already see it every day. It's just going to help them. I take it up a notch a little bit. I would always recommend to go with a higher dose also because one thing that's very important to. To. To put out there is that out of all the longevity supplement we can think of, Sperminin is the safest or among the safest. There is no negative side effects that are known so far from supplementing again with natural spermidine. And that will be my little asterisk here. So keep it natural spermidine, not like the synthetic form again because the dosage also can be much higher, which yeah, we want to stay in the. In a healthy range here. There is no negative side effect. Is the safest longevity supplement. There's actually a paper that was going through a bunch of all the longevity supplement they could think of. And spermidine was like at the top.
- [37:36]
Amitaj Eshel
Of the season also the one that acts on the most hallmarks of aging because autophagy is so important. How about timing? You know, with. Without food, when I was taking it always. I think I am now vindicated. But I always felt it helped me with sleep. Now there is actually a study that came out that it does actually support sleep, right?
- [37:59]
Melissa Kano
It does, yeah. We actually have in the works also to study with our own supplement for sleep, actually. But I will be honest if I noticed this as well at the very beginning, the effect on sleep kind of faded also because probably I have two little kids that don't sleep.
- [38:19]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, tell me about it.
- [38:20]
Melissa Kano
Maybe I don't have a good. I'm not a good control for this.
- [38:23]
Amitaj Eshel
Tell me about it. Maybe I should give it to Lev, our kids, because he needs it.
- [38:26]
Melissa Kano
Let me tell you the molecular mechanism behind why it would help for sleep. We're not really sure, but it seems to be helping with sleep. We have a lot of people reporting this back to us, especially the very first times they take it.
- [38:39]
Amitaj Eshel
Got it.
- [38:40]
Melissa Kano
So I take it before going to bed, mainly because before that my day is so crazy. I never have time to take my supplements or my vitamins. There is no known studies or data that we have internally in the company that would argue towards taking it either in the morning, midday or night. So my take on this is just take it when you can, when it's more convenient. For sure. You can even take it in your coffee because it's pretty stable at high temperature for a good amount of time. Yeah, it's pretty stable now. I don't know, I'm pretty specific about my coffee, so I don't put anything in it. But some people ask me sometimes, can I take in my coffee? Yeah, you can take it. We have data that show that the molecule is pretty stable for like 30 minutes at 95 degrees Celsius. So like it's, it should be fine in your coffin.
- [39:30]
Amitaj Eshel
95°, by the way, to those who are listening. Yeah, 200. 205, about.
- [39:37]
Melissa Kano
Yeah. So I mean, you're almost at boiling temperature. So your coffee, I hope you don't take at boiling temperature. So you should be fine in coffee temperature to have your spermidine if your.
- [39:47]
Amitaj Eshel
If your tongue is fine. Spermidine is fine.
- [39:49]
Melissa Kano
Exactly. That's a very good way to put it. So any time of the day really is my take on it. And you can take it with food or without food. I would, I would say, I don't know, like I'm trying to, to, to think about it, you know, if maybe your digestive tract is full of other things, maybe the absorption of a specific compound is not going to be as good. The fact that it's not a liposoluble protein molecule like you would think of, resveratrol, for example, you absolutely want to take with some fat because otherwise it's not going to go properly into your system. Spermidine is water soluble, so I would imagine that would be fine by itself and maybe might even help with absorbing most of it.
- [40:31]
Amitaj Eshel
So yeah, you actually are kind of segueing to my next question, which is synergistic compounds.
- [40:37]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [40:37]
Amitaj Eshel
For example, obviously in our skincare we have things like, you know, different peptides or resveratrol, fermented resveratrol and microencapsulated NAD precursors, things like that. So is there any synergy orally between like spermidine and resveratrol or nmn, for example, or any other NAD precursors or anything really?
- [40:59]
Melissa Kano
So yes, there is a study out there that shows synergistic properties with resveratrol for sure that both. But again, because they both converge into at the end the same thing which is helping this autophagy process. So there is a study out there and I could find it like I don't remember exactly in which context it was done, but that showed that both helped towards those property. And we have actually done some study with NAD and spermidine. So nadine spermidine is actually interesting. They have synergistic compound properties because spermidine actually relies on NAD to be metabolized properly. So absolutely, if you supplement with spermidine, it could never hurt to supplement with either NAD or a precursor of it. I would say a precursor is better, especially taken orally, just because to be uptaken by the cell you kind of want the precursor that gets into it more easily than the big NAD molecule, which is quite big to me actually taken up. So. And we have a pattern actually that shows protective effect on the heart specifically, but it will probably go for other cells of NAD and spermidine. So yes, absolutely, they work together.
- [42:23]
Amitaj Eshel
So how long before results are noticeable? Especially for skin, hair, sleep, focus, nails.
- [42:30]
Melissa Kano
Right. So I mean, okay, let's think about this. I mean the cells that are going to renew the fastest are probably going to be your hair, your nail and maybe your skin in the same trifecta. So I would say about a month into it you should start seeing effects especially. So the first thing people are going to notice is probably going to be the nails because it's the thing that grows fastest. Right. And so most people that report back to us after starting their journey supplementing with spermidine, they do report like stronger nails and they grow faster as well. The hair is going to be another one. So people are going to see either faster growth, but also repigmentation as well. And that goes back to the senescent, getting rid of the senescent cells because it's going to help push back the follicle into its growth phase, which is also the phase where it produces melanin. So it can help with repigmentation. And the skin is going to be more or less in the same time frame. So let's say three, four weeks into taking it, you should already start getting notable effects from.
- [43:37]
Amitaj Eshel
Got it.
- [43:38]
Melissa Kano
Yeah. A good supplementation. Again, it's all dose dependent. So that's why I always recommend go with the highest dose, the highest dose that we propose, which is 6 milligram, like be careful out there on the market. There are people that sell you a 40 milligram daily spermidine supplement that is chemically synthesized. I wouldn't go that high. Like I would, I would Go the highest dose of the dose we proposed which is dietary dose.
- [44:02]
Amitaj Eshel
Let's say I was doing 12 by you. Two packets of you guys are six.
- [44:09]
Melissa Kano
That's good.
- [44:10]
Amitaj Eshel
But I actually think six is more was more beneficial for me.
- [44:13]
Melissa Kano
Oh yeah?
- [44:14]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. So any age specific recommendation. For example, I think I started taking spermity when I was 35 like four years ago.
- [44:23]
Melissa Kano
Perfect age.
- [44:23]
Amitaj Eshel
How about. So how about you know people that are more looking to for prevention at their twenties or even people who are on the other side of that, you know in their, in their late.
- [44:35]
Melissa Kano
I mean technically. Yeah, technically you start getting all at 25. Right. I think that's right about when things picked and then like it's all the way down.
- [44:44]
Amitaj Eshel
I would argue probably 19 which is the peak of your reproductive.
- [44:48]
Melissa Kano
Yeah. Also so I mean there is. Because it's a safe supplement. You can probably start supplementing in your 20s. I think it becomes important to either really mind your, your food or your dietary intake. So eating the proper the foods that contain high spermidine and to supplement in your 30s, early 30s, definitely by your 40s. It's actually something I think that should be recommended in general to, to people over 40 to supplement for sure because you will see the benefits and I would say like it start becoming more evident the benefits the older you get because that's when really the lack is showing.
- [45:31]
Amitaj Eshel
Right.
- [45:31]
Melissa Kano
When your internal production is permitting is not as efficient. Your gut microbiome doesn't produce as well like supplementing become more obvious later in age. But definitely you can start supplementing for prevention before for sure.
- [45:45]
Amitaj Eshel
Got it. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about what you guys are experiencing on a daily basis. You know, if you were a skincare company have a million stories on how the products improved, you know, skin elasticity or fine lines or things like that. Even people reporting that they use it, you know they use our serum with spermidine in their hair.
- [46:06]
Melissa Kano
Oh really? Yeah, I haven't heard that one.
- [46:08]
Amitaj Eshel
But let's, let's talk about what's some anecdotal stories that you guys hear from Spermidine Life customers.
- [46:16]
Melissa Kano
Well we have, we have a lot of people going back to us with like just repigmentation which is always fun because I mean they get like let's.
- [46:26]
Amitaj Eshel
Let'S, let's, let's note that we're talking about, about the hair here.
- [46:30]
Melissa Kano
Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:33]
Amitaj Eshel
Because in the skin it's not necessarily.
- [46:35]
Melissa Kano
No, no, it's not going to be as good for sure. Well it depends how we're. And in which conditions. But definitely the hair pigmentation is a good thing to be honest. For us. The good feedback and the one that makes us happy is usually older people that are in their 60s that just get back a boost of energy from supplementing just an overall well being and they're just so happy to share they want to tell you. So there's always a fun and nice exchange here that is very fun. As far as crazy stories, I mean we have people that have tried that do open the capsule and mix it with a cream for sure. Like the daily moisturizer, which is a good thing I guess. But like they could also just use your products in this case.
- [47:21]
Amitaj Eshel
That's funny because it's very hard to make it disperse evenly in a cream like that was one of our most, the hardest challenges. And I'm like, you know, first of all it's, it actually costs more if you do that if you break open the capsule.
- [47:36]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [47:37]
Amitaj Eshel
And it doesn't feel good. I remember like shout out to Magdalena. She's from Slovenia or something like that. Like she's from the Balkans. She's like this, you know, this hero of longevity in Europe. And she was opening capsules and putting it. She was one of her inspirations to actually make this collaboration. And I remember how difficult it was for her, like how long she needed to, you know, to massage it in the skin. Even us time, we do a, like a prototype of a new product that has the spermidine. It's, it's, it's a challenge like to get it to, to emulsify properly.
- [48:14]
Melissa Kano
I mean. Yeah, because I mean just like to, to, to remind people that are listening, it's not pure spermidine, it's a wheat germ extract. So there's a bunch of other things from the wheat germ, like natural extract that I mean you do need to, to get in there especially for the skin you want.
- [48:32]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah.
- [48:33]
Melissa Kano
The most emojis texture. Yeah.
- [48:36]
Amitaj Eshel
I would say, I would say, you know, we did mention with germ a few times. I would say one thing about skin. Like so, so some people are worried about gluten. So as far as the skin, and I'm quoting now the, the Celiac American Celiac Association. I might have people sharing their name, but the Canadian Celiac association and basically every big organization that refers to, you know, gluten sensitivities and intolerance. There is no. Gluten doesn't cross the skin barrier. So that is not an issue with, with the skin specifically. But do you have any guidelines around gluten and gluten sensitivity and taking spermidine Life.
- [49:19]
Melissa Kano
Right. So there is still a little bit of gluten in wheat germ. There is way less than in wheat, but there will always be a little bit left. What we know from people that have gluten sensitivity, and I'm just going to highlight sensitivity, is that taking our supplement is usually fine. We have actually never had anyone with a gluten sensitivity taking our product and reporting bad negative effects. With that being said, because it's a little bit extreme on the spectrum of gluten sensitivity, celiac disease, we usually do not recommend just because they will always be a little bit leftover of gluten in the wheat germ extract. So we don't recommend it. That being said, there is evidence out there that spermidine may help with gluten intolerance. And the way it would work is because it kind of is a competitive inhibitor of an enzyme that transforms gluten into the peptide that is going to trigger the immune response leading to the gluten sensitivity. So it could help, actually. Spermidine. And I mean, she explained it way better than I did. Dr. Elizabeth Yorth from the Boulder Longevity Institute, she has a little piece about explaining this. She's a medical doctor, so she explained it better than I did.
- [50:43]
Amitaj Eshel
Shout out to Betsy.
- [50:44]
Melissa Kano
Yes. So she will explain that better. But it could help with gluten sensitivity. Now, just because out of caution and because I'm not an md, I would not recommend it. Someone that has celiac disease.
- [50:55]
Amitaj Eshel
Gotcha. Okay, so maybe, you know, lastly, what. What is your personal skin and longevity stack right now? What do you do?
- [51:06]
Melissa Kano
So first on my list would be something unfortunately I don't have right now, which is good sleep. Nothing beats good sleep for. For. For a good beauty routine. So that would be on my.
- [51:20]
Amitaj Eshel
Listen, listen. Yesterday, Anastasia, this morning, very early in the morning, she had a podcast interview with Jodi Duval. She's in. In Australia. And she's like, hey, can you. Can you go for the question with me? Prepare. And 10 minutes into it, you know, I'm hunched over, I'm looking at the question, and I suddenly hear, are you asleep? And I was probably asleep for like, she was talking to me for like five minutes. I feel you.
- [51:47]
Melissa Kano
Crazy micro dreams through when I fall asleep randomly like this. But yeah, anyway, sleep would be a great one. Another one, definitely water for sure. And I live in Colorado, so I always remember drinking water because it's so dry here. Anyway, as far as skin care, definitely I've done a lot, tried a lot. And I think with older age and wisdom I'm trying to be more simple now. So a good cleansing at night with a gentle cleanser for sure. I try to stay good minutes on it to, to, to clean. And then I try to be simple now. So I have, I definitely use your product every other day. I try to alternate. I try not to have the same routine every day, at least in terms of a topical application, but definitely use that. But also use niacinamide, niacinamide serum. I like that a lot. I feel it works on me at least pretty well. And then a good moisturizer, I do like a couple of two or three times a week chemical exfoliation. So maybe a little bit of glycolic acid or lactic acid before applying my serum and my moisturizer.
- [52:56]
Amitaj Eshel
Gotcha.
- [52:57]
Melissa Kano
Yeah. And in the morning in Colorado, you know, very sunny like today. So SPF for sure. And I try to keep it simple. Yeah. Just not more.
- [53:06]
Amitaj Eshel
Sounds good. Let's see what else. Let's do a few like rapid fire questions just to close it. Probably things that we covered but you know, just so we have it in, in, in as a, as a recap.
- [53:18]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [53:19]
Amitaj Eshel
So this time of day to take.
- [53:21]
Melissa Kano
Spermidine anytime is the best time. Just take it and consistency. Take it every day.
- [53:27]
Amitaj Eshel
Great. Good food sources of spermidine.
- [53:30]
Melissa Kano
Don't keep the cruciferous, the legumes, the beans. Definitely aged cheese too. So I mean I'm from France, so that was the best thing I've ever heard when I knew there was a lot aged cheese. So don't skip your cheese.
- [53:47]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. Spermidine for women versus men. Any differences?
- [53:53]
Melissa Kano
I would say, I mean we all get benefits from autophagy. There is no differences in terms of. At least that we know in terms of intake. I would say both would benefit from it. There might be specific effects in women obviously because of the biology is different, especially in terms of. So actually we, to go back to your question before we have had some women report back to us that he helped them. They're convinced at least it helped them conceive to start supplementing with spermidine. So and that would not be completely far out because there are some studies that show that it helps with, with fertility in mice to supplement with spermidine. So that would be one thing for women. It could definitely help them to keep supplementing to, to, to stay fertile longer. That that would be something that, that would be specific to women for sure.
- [54:47]
Amitaj Eshel
Okay. Spermidine for hair loss. We talked about pigmentation spreading for hair loss.
- [54:52]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [54:53]
Amitaj Eshel
Any results, Any anecdotal science? Any studies there.
- [54:57]
Melissa Kano
There is studies out there that do show that e. Helps push back the hair follicle into its growth phase.
- [55:03]
Amitaj Eshel
Yes.
- [55:04]
Melissa Kano
So it can definitely help with hair loss. Now, I will not stay here, like, stand here and tell you that if you're completely bold, it's gonna reverse it 100. I actually do not know of anything that could do that, but it definitely could help support hair growth for sure. Yes, definitely.
- [55:20]
Amitaj Eshel
Okay. Lastly, one myth about spermidine you want to bust it can be, by the way, that.
- [55:28]
Melissa Kano
That taking it. Oh, my God. How can I say this? That there is not. Let's say it like this. There is not enough spermine in sperm to consider anything else than supplementation from wheat germ is what I will say.
- [55:44]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, we definitely get a lot of. A lot of people talking with us about that.
- [55:49]
Melissa Kano
I have no idea how many times I get this question on a weekly basis.
- [55:55]
Amitaj Eshel
Okay, so to. To recap, closing takeaways.
- [55:59]
Melissa Kano
Right.
- [56:00]
Amitaj Eshel
I think the biggest insights that we can take out of this conversation is, first of all, that spiruline enhances autophagy and slows. Slows skin aging down.
- [56:08]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [56:09]
Amitaj Eshel
And that it is important. Important for any other aging pro. Any other cellular function that. That. That require maintenance.
- [56:17]
Melissa Kano
Absolutely.
- [56:18]
Amitaj Eshel
That cellular cleanup equals youthful function both inside and out. And that the practical protocol is start high and keep it consistent.
- [56:30]
Melissa Kano
Absolutely. You got it.
- [56:33]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah. Okay. So how can people. I know that we. That. That we prepared a special coupon code. I don't know if you have it ready. Oh, I. I can. I.
- [56:45]
Melissa Kano
You got me on that one.
- [56:47]
Amitaj Eshel
I think it was shout out to Olia.
- [56:50]
Melissa Kano
Yeah.
- [56:50]
Amitaj Eshel
She prepared something called Young Life.
- [56:54]
Melissa Kano
That's what it is. Young Life. Oh, See, that's where the scientist is just like out of her depth here.
- [57:02]
Amitaj Eshel
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Young life. All caps. And we'll give you 20% off spermidine life products and you can find it. What is the website?
- [57:15]
Melissa Kano
So spermidinelife us is where you will find us. Yeah.
- [57:19]
Amitaj Eshel
Cool. Obviously, follow on social media all the other things. Guys, this is really my favorite. My favorite thing that we've ever dealt with this collaboration. So thank you very much, Melissa. That was a pleasure and very fun to nerd out about swarmingdeal with you.
- [57:36]
Melissa Kano
Thank you very much for having me. It was fun.
- [57:39]
Amitaj Eshel
Thank you. Bye, everyone.