← Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Biohacking Beauty: The Anti-Aging Skincare Podcast
Nasha Winters: Is Your 'Healthy' Lifestyle Damaging Your Skin?
01:08:21
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- [00:00]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Amitai Eshel
Welcome to another episode of Biohacking Beauty Podcast where we delve into the latest strategies for achieving youthful, radiant skin. I'm your host, Amitai Eshel, and today we're honored to have Dr. Naysha Winters with us. Dr. Winters is. Is a globally recognized expert in integrative oncology and metabolic health with over 35 years of experience in the healthcare industry. She's the author of the Metabolic Approach to Cancer and Mistletoe and the Emerging Future of Integrative Oncology. She also serves as the executive director of the Metabolic Terrain Institute of Health. In this episode, of course, brought to you by Yungoos Skincare, the company that my wife and I co founded. In this episode, Dr. Winters will share her insights on how metabolic health influences overall aging and skin aging, obviously, and leading to overall vitality. We'll explore practical wellness strategies that you can incorporate into your health and skincare routine in order to promote a youthful body and complexion. As always, our goal is to simplify the journey to youthful body and skin by bringing you expert advice and actionable tips. So stay tuned for an incredible conversation with Dr. Naysha Winters. All right, Naysha motherfucking Winters, finally on the Biohacking Beauty podcast, one of my favorite people of all times. Naysha, we love you so much.
- [02:04]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Oh, my gosh. First of all, that is like, one of the coolest intros I think I've ever gotten, so thank you for that. I will. That is great. And we have been trying to do this with you, my friend. End have been on the move, literally. You are doing some really cool things. I want to hear from you too. I know this is your show, but I'm super curious. I mean, inquiring minds want to know what you've been up to, because it's cool to see what my colleagues are all up to out there.
- [02:29]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, it's been. I mean, you know, Yangus promised to be an innovator, and that's the road we're on. I think it's a very cool discussion as far as, like, what is the head of the company? You know, what is the CEO? What does the CEO does? You know, And I think what we are trying to do is keep. Keep true to our roots of being, you know, explorers and. Yeah, so I just finished brain training basically neurofeedback with Alice Miller, the great and powerful Alice Miller. And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really cool.
- [03:08]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Wow.
- [03:08]
Amitai Eshel
But, Naysha, before we start. Before we start.
- [03:11]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yeah. Yes.
- [03:12]
Amitai Eshel
I would have introduced you well in the intro, but I want. How would you describe, like, yourself how do you, how, how do you tell people what you do?
- [03:23]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Well, that's a really good question. I mean, I mean, first of all, I think a lot of folks think that I've just always been in the oncology space. And that may be true as far as my career, but it didn't start that way. In fact, I did not want to be in that space at all because over 33 years ago I, I was met in that space very personally. It, it invaded every nook and cranny of this meat suit that I'm wearing before you today and tried to snuff my candle more than once over about a 10 year period and had a few touch and goes even in the two decades since then. But ultimately I was pre med. I was always curious, I was always, I kind of think my own sort of biohacker. And today I would probably describe myself as an integrative metabolic oncologist with a passion for metabolic health, mitochondrial function, and optimizing all aspects of our terrain and our wellbeing from the, you know, from the most tangible to the most intangible and everything in between.
- [04:21]
Amitai Eshel
Wow, this is super, super cool way to, to describe it because I think most people don't know, I mean, I've said it before on the podcast, but most people don't know that the groundwork or the ground on which the longevity community walks on was basically, it all is predicated on the hallmarks of cancer. You know, hallmarks of aging is actually an extrapolated version of the hallmarks of cancer. So I mean, there is a correlation there which most people don't. Maybe glaze over.
- [04:55]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you brought that up because first of all, it's funny that you in sort of the wellness and beauty industry knows that way more than anybody in the oncology industry. So I think that's very interesting that you are seeing that and hearing that and understanding that that's where that comes from. And yet the standard of care oncology system as we know it today, even though they are the ones who came up with the hallmarks of cancer back in 2002, 2011, we added a few more, 2022, a few more to that. We are constantly looking for a single target and a single treatment to target those hallmarks. And yet no one is asking in the standard of care community why those hallmarks express to begin with. And I believe that that's what you in the longevity and wellness and beauty space are asking those questions, well, why are those hallmarks doing their thing? Why are they going rogue, why are they behaving in this way and what can we do to change it? Instead of looking for a single target, single treatment, pharmaceutical intervention, this is where you and I's paths crossed is like how do we understand how to actually do something about it before there's a big problem and to support something if there is a problem on board. A lot of tools beyond just the pharmaceutical intervention.
- [06:08]
Amitai Eshel
I think first of all, super true. I think the difference, and I really want you to correct me if I'm wrong, the difference is that allopathic medicine really takes a top down approach. Where it is first we need to like we are going to wait until the wheels fall off and then we are going to try and rebuild the wagon or the car or whatever that is. We're going to look at the Ikea, how to build it, you know, whatever plan, and we're going to rebuild, you know, whatever that is. Right. And I think what we are trying to do, you myself, anyone in the, you know, in the health optimization or the optimal health or whatever you want to call that community, we are trying to have a bottom up approach, right? Like things are going to go south every day. By the way, I think, you know, something that arose from me being in an alpha state in last week is that I realized youth is a zero sum between damage and repair. Right. I think it's really cool. So like basically damage happens, like mutations happen. The body being able to tackle each and every one of them and usher them back, you know. You know, shepherd, it's like herding cats, I think, you know, herding them back to the safe, safe grounds of, you know, proper function is what a youthful body, utopian, like youthful body does. But every time that does not happen. And obviously it happens billions of times every day, but it doesn't happen. This is aging or this is things going south.
- [07:55]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Wow, it's interesting. I cannot believe I'm having such a brain fart right now. On the author who spoke to this concept of even like where the healing happens is in the space, that stillness between thought, between breath, between pain, between movement forward.
- [08:10]
Amitai Eshel
Is it a dispenser?
- [08:11]
Dr. Naysha Winters
No, but he speaks it to it. It's come to me later and I'll remember if I just stop talking.
- [08:17]
Amitai Eshel
Okay?
- [08:17]
Dr. Naysha Winters
But what you spoke to is so beautiful because that's just it. It's these, these little moments we have. These, as you noted, these chronic assaults. None of us can live in a bubble and if we did, it would probably be plastic and cause us more problems. But you're talking about living, like, truly living and being part of humanity. Right. You're hit with those assaults on a regular basis. And our bodies do an amazing job, to a point, until suddenly the burden might get a little heavier or suddenly the bucket fills up a little bit more. And then the uniqueness of each of us is we have our own unique threshold of. You know, I always use the example that my husband loves to go, like, down the chemical aisle at Home Depot. He loves. He's a. He's a chemist. Maybe there's something there. But he likes the smell of chemically. He loves the smell of diesel. I can't even walk down those aisles. It makes me nauseous. I get a headache. I get really, physically, physically ill. We have a different bucket and a different threshold in our bucket. His body knows how to meet that toxin and metabolize it and clear it out. And I've literally been born with deleted genes, so I'm missing these particular glutathione genes in two different places that my body meets those assaults and was like, holy crap, it gets bamboozled by it. So I have to work harder than my husband does to meet that. That chemical, metabolize it, and clear it out. I have to do the job, not just my body doing the job. So I think that's what's also really interesting is why this industry always has sort of like, this is the cure for all, or, this doesn't help anybody. It doesn't work that way. We're all so uniquely individual. And what you were just learning last week was understanding your own body's ability to meet whatever assaults it's taken physically, emotionally, spiritually, energetically metabolize and adjust and pivot accordingly, which is so beautiful. Like, that is about optimization. That is knowing love to know how to meet those challenges head on.
- [10:19]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. And I thank you. And I think a lot of the times people don't realize that a lot of the things that we think of right now as the solvable issues, the bad players in aging, for example, you know, the easiest example to give is, like, senescent cells or zombie cells. Everyone is now on the let's eliminate zombie cells train. But what people don't know is that this is actually when we're youthful, this is a defense mechanism. This is a mechanism that, you know, if you take, you know, rats or whatever and eliminate their ability to drive cells to senescence, they die of cancer, like, immediately. You know. So first of all, I think we need to realize that this is one of the body's Ways to actually deal with that burden. Like our body has ways to meet basically like to compromise on a solution that might harm it in the long run. But at least it's not dying now. And like looking for the panacea, the silver bullet that solves everything. I think it's impossible or the one size fits all. It's impossible because a lot of things that we're trying to solve at a micro level are good for us. We actually don't want to get rid of them completely.
- [11:37]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yes. Wow. And it's funny because you just nailed the whole problem in the oncology space, which is where I'm very familiar, where I hang out most of the time. And that standard of care is like, oh, the cancer is bad. We that must target it, we must kill it, eradicate it. And we put all of our energy there. In fact, we call it the maximum tolerated dose approach, which is nap. Palm that field as hard as you can and you hope that the body survives it. Right. And you.
- [12:05]
Amitai Eshel
That it kills the the cancer before it kills you.
- [12:07]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Exactly. That is the name of the game in standard of care oncology today. The interesting thing is that you just described something that we see see in oncology all the time. We have one side that is a cancer expression and a cancer behavior and we have the next to it in parallel happening simultaneously. The healthy normal expression of our cellular function and our cellular metabolism. And yet if we then try and go and fully like let's say, give NAD to those healthy cells. For someone who's actually cancering, people don't understand that things like nad using things like N acetylcysteine in the midst of active cancer treatment, using things like just plain photobiomodulation with red light. In someone who's actually actively cancering, you actually may arm the cancer cells to be more resilient or even heat or.
- [13:00]
Amitai Eshel
Even like sauna or even like cryo cold. Yeah.
- [13:04]
Dr. Naysha Winters
So you sometimes strengthen in these great well meaning influencers, biohacking tools and tricks that are out there today. When you're like, oh, I'm going to fight my cancer this way, you actually might be giving it more resources. So people who don't understand this simultaneous process and how to meet them, you know, push back with one and encourage with the other. That can get tricky. And so when folks are working with someone, let's say someone, one of your listeners is dealing with a cancer process, I sure as heck want to make sure they know. To find someone who knows how to bother simultaneously weaken the cancer while strengthening the terrain and so just like the other side, when you're saying, hey, this person isn't cancering, but they're trying to be like the forever fountain of youth with their longevity treatments, they're not even allowing their body to do what it was evolutionarily perfectly designed to do, which was to meet these challenges in different ways head on, so that it does have the ability to create resilience. And then the piece you brought up, which is gorgeous, and I hope we can dig in a little deeper, is the concept. You didn't name it, but I'll name it for you. Hormesis. Right. And alluded to that, but those are the topics that it's like, okay, how do we both parallel push back the cancer and strengthen the terrain? How do we, when someone's not cancering, just fortify the terrain without, like, blocking nature's job? And number three, how do we encourage the comfort and the ability to utilize hormesis in the right time, dose, duration, and combination? Those are the places that in the modern world today, we make it all or nothing, or all the way black or all the way white or all the way yes or all the way no. And it's so nuanced and so personalized and so individual.
- [14:44]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. You know, again, going back, first of all, beautiful. And I love hormesis. We actually own the trademark for the word in cosmetics. No. Yeah, yeah. But we never actually use it anyway. But I love hormises because what I think speaks to many people in our field is kind of the Confucian approach of it was there before, and we're just rediscovering it. Right. Like, you know, in Confucianism, like, you, new is bad. So what Chinese people normally do is they say, oh, no, no, no, no, it's not new. It was forgotten. And we're just rediscovering it. So hormesis is the mechanism that allowed every cell, or the response to stress basically is the mechanism that allowed every cell since the beginning of time to survive and led us to where we are today. You know, cells that did not have the mechanism that said, hey, let's stop here for a second. There is an outside stressor. We need to adapt to that stressor to make sure that we can survive and thrive. And maybe we shouldn't just, like, create more copies of ourselves in our weakened state. And. And everyone gets, you know, depleted and dies. These cells did not survive. You know, so how do you even approach this conversation with people who are. Who are coming to you, and they're kind of Maybe in a state of shock and a little bit worried. How do you start talking to them about, like, hormesis and, you know, wellness and. And things like that?
- [16:23]
Dr. Naysha Winters
I love that question. I mean, personally, I don't think I've ever had anybody ask it quite that way. And I would. I would say that probably the first step is to help people understand that we have evolved from a very beautiful, like a strategy that you also spoke to adaptation. We can trace back. They call it the. The original mother. Whether that is true original mother, or whether that's more metaphorical. That's not the point. The point is, is that we can track back 178,000 years ago, the original sort of mitochondria, the original bacteria that has somehow made it through a heck of a lot of flaming hoops to bring us to where we are today. Which means it had to go through massive adaptation, whether it was major environmental changes, ice ages, moving from one major geographical and geological environment to another for survival. Right. I mean, that is a very powerful idea right there of these cells. And these sort of adaptations were all about the survival aspect and that survival instinct, whether it's at that macro or that micro level. So I always liked people to understand that. I also want people to understand that these little buggers were bacteria. Right? So they take up upwards of 10 to 20% of our body mass. It will. It will give or take, depending on your body type and. And your size and weight, et cetera. But 10 to 20% of our body mass is made up of these mitochondria. We have made so many changes since the mid-1800s and so many changes since World War II, and so many changes since the 1980s that our bodies cannot adapt in a way that they adapted for 170,000 years prior. The changes are too many, too fast, and our Wonder Woman bracelets are failing us. Right. We're not able to.
- [18:12]
Amitai Eshel
They're not. They're not EMF protective enough.
- [18:15]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Exactly. Oh, and so this is why. This is where smart people like yourself and others started saying, well, then how can I harness that ancient wisdom, that adaptive ability, and maybe ebb and flow it in a way that I can harness the power of that and I can manipulate it in a way to make me adapt a little bit better. That really is, I think, what the original goal was in sort of the biohacking community, the longevity community, the functional medicine, the naturopathic community. We wanted to take our modern bodies in this modern time that have evolved from very ancient wisdom and help them remember where they've come from, where the cells have come from, know what has, what it's evolved from, and use some tools to our disposal, whether it comes from nature itself or things that we've created to mimic natural processes. So I, I always want patients to understand kind of where we've come from and where we are and the changes that have occurred in the last, let's say, 150 years that have made it difficult for our bodies to keep up. And so that I love, like the hormesis piece. Let's. This is a really good example. We do not want to be uncomfortable. Right. In our culture. Anyway, you and I were just talking before we got on here about you. You and I live in climates, and in the summer is pretty damn grueling now. We have the ability to go indoors and turn on air conditioning. We have the ability to travel to another part of the world and have a different temperature experience or climate experience. But there are vast majorities of people on this planet that cannot change their environment. Right. And so their bodies have to adapt. They can't adjust. And they have. And they're probably a hell of a lot more resilient than you and I, you know, in comparison.
- [19:53]
Amitai Eshel
Go to Boston and you'll figure it out.
- [19:56]
Dr. Naysha Winters
You will see it pretty quickly. Like, you know, that's why we have snowbirds or whatnot.
- [20:00]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Dr. Naysha Winters
To head south and people flocking north, you know, and just like, we're like ourselves, but it's also like the place of, like, temperature. So always wanting 74 degrees, never going hungry, by all means, don't skip a meal for four hours. You know, never question pain. You know that you should just immediately support, suppress that. Oh, don't you dare have a fever. Pop a pill for that and turn that mechanism off. Those are things we've done to make ourselves comfortable and, and perceive you create a perceived safety in our world around us, which have actually made us far more vulnerable and frankly, far easier to kill.
- [20:37]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. Yes, I, I agree 100%. You know, John Randall, a really cool guy, said something very profound. He said, you know what? Your body right now has basically adapted to survive at the current, you know, at its current environment in the best way possible. So if you want to create any type of change, you have to create the change first in the environment which. In which the body kind of resides in and lives within. Right. Like, and I think hormesis is, is basically that. How do I introduce environments that are. That are going to move the needle and move where my body is towards where I want it to be.
- [21:22]
Dr. Naysha Winters
I love that. I love that so much. And I love. There's also something about that that speaks to our habitual nature, you know, our human mind. Habitual. So we sit, we get into the routine of, well, I go to the gym three times a week and I do this particular exercise for this duration of time and this duration of intensity. And then I go home. And then I wonder why I'm at a crossroad or why I'm at a stall that I've stalled in one particular way. Or I'm, you know, I go and I get my ice plunge every single day at this time and do my thing. Like we, when we get into that habituated state, routine is really good on one level. But even on heart rate variability, we can test that the more sort of variety, more diversity to your environment, the more robust and resilient you become. And we can actually measure that. But if you get into a chronicity, which is not normal. So let's even say taking a pharmaceutical, let's say even a thyroid patient, does your thyroid think that it runs at 1.5, you know, milligrams of what, X, Y and Z, every single day of the year? No. Ever? Never. Or exogenous hormone replacement therapy or anything else. Like, we are cyclical. Men cycle. I cycle, like every hour, you know, or at least a couple times a day. Right. And so it's like, why do we somehow think we are going to be smarter than the endogenous rhythm that our bodies have been striving to create and maintain for millennia? It's just incredible to me.
- [22:52]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. And we can see it with, even with like longevity drugs. You know, let's talk about, you know, again, like, let's say rapamycin, right? Like the drug that is now the holy grail for senescence, senescent cell elimination. So the magic does not come from just popping that drug the same way you would if you had, if you had like an heart. A heart implant. Right. Because it's, it's what, that's what they supposed to like, suppress your immune system. The longevity magic is when you modulate.
- [23:24]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yes.
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Amitai Eshel
That drug, that drug being in your system. Okay. Obviously, in any case, you're not going to pop a pill every two minutes. Right. But the, the modulation of the concentration of that drug in your blood is what causes the positive effects and not a cyclical rhythm 100%. Also, something very interesting is that we also learn, like they did a very interesting study. I'm blanking on where. But maybe you see Berkeley, but the conclusion Was that the best frame of mind for our brain to embed knowledge or to keep knowledge is in a mild state of irritation where we're trying to adapt to something new. In general, as you said, it is our goal to have the body understand this is a new field and it needs to adapt. And not constantly, but obviously in modulation.
- [24:28]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Right. I love this. I love this. So I'm curious like, because I know how I look at this from a very oncology centric place and down getting very, like, I can get very, very myopic down into the metabolic pathways and down to the cellular respiration of the mitochondria and the complexes. I mean I can get as super focused in, but I'm, I'm way more comfortable to bring it back out to the big picture. Because I think that what happens with both patients and clinicians is we get sort of seduced by the sex of the latest target and the latest pathway or the latest off label drug or the latest anti aging miracle. And so but we forget the fundamentals, we forget the basics. So if I have a patient who's like, I'm eating perfectly right, I'm doing my exercises, I'm taking all my right supplements, and yet when I really dig deep and realize that they're either living in an environment that has certain toxicities, maybe they're living on a busy environment roadway that's just constant amount of particulates in their environment that's really causing harm to a well functioning immune system, or they're in a partnership in a relationship with someone who. People, people forget. You are the result of the five closest people around you. So if any of those people are draining your energy, you need to rethink that, right? Because that's a big one. Which means you cannot heal in the environment in which you have gotten. And then even down to okay, are you living up on like the seventh floor and your feet never ground and you are not tapped into the, you know, maybe the negative ions of the earth around you. Those are the simple things that we forget. We forget. Are you drinking quality water? Are you breathing quality air? Are you knowing when your sun is setting and sun is rising? Do you know the phase of the moon? Those sounds so hippie dippy, you know, Farmer's Almanac, you know, weirdo. But they're the fundamentals that remind all of our clocks that are internal. From our super chasmic nucle, you know, nucleus to the cells themselves that have their own clocks. And then the clocks within the clocks. Super, super cool. And the clock genes and whatnot that are interfacing with this. If you've forgotten the fundamentals, your body goes awry pretty darn quickly. And no amount of biohacking or medicating or supplementing or dietary interventions are gonna touch it if you do not get to the rhythm that you were designed from.
- [26:51]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, as, as they say, you can't wellness your way out of it.
- [26:55]
Dr. Naysha Winters
That's great. That's great. Wellness way out of it. That is so good. Yeah.
- [27:01]
Amitai Eshel
So I love that you said about the partner, but I think obviously you meant, you know, any type of like the tiger is going to eat me proverbially scenario. Right. That's kind of the major outline there, like existential threat that doesn't exist. Right, right, right, right.
- [27:20]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Boy, Howie, I wish I could think. You're just made me think about the book. About. There was this amazing discussion about these antelope basically that were still. They call it like running from ghosts, that the predators that used to chase them don't even exist anymore. And yet nervous systems are still activated as if they are.
- [27:40]
Amitai Eshel
First of all, I think we should call this podcast. What's the name of this book you're.
- [27:45]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Getting me at the end of a very long workday where I'm like blanking on every name and author. So I'm liking this. It's playing own version of games. The answers.
- [27:59]
Amitai Eshel
Okay, we're gonna put a challenge if people like if. Ah, but people can Google it. I was like, okay, people can know all the books that we're saying, but if someone writes all the books that we're saying in the comments, we're going to give them something.
- [28:12]
Dr. Naysha Winters
I'll throw in a prize too.
- [28:13]
Amitai Eshel
You tell me. But yeah, so obviously we can see it in many parts of our society and I think it's to get philosophical here for a second. It's not that we don't need it. So Richard Dawkins actually has a new book.
- [28:30]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Really?
- [28:31]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. And something that you said reminded me what he's talking about there. Basically it's a takeoff on the Book of the Dead, but I forget the general premise there or even what reminded me. But Richard Dawkins has another great little explanation on how the instinct, the evolutionary instinct to believe in a higher power evolved. And that's super, super interesting where he says you are as an animal, as an evolutionary item, you are predisposed, pre programmed to attribute causation to scenarios. So if there is a rustle in the trees or if the door opened, someone find it. Right. But like if there is A rustle in the vegetation, and you are a little, you know, animal drinking water. You need to know, your brain immediately says something caused this. Now, am I in danger or not? But the jumping to the conclusion that this is not caused by nothing is an evolutionary trait. You know, if I run away every time, I'm going to die of thirst. If I never run away, I'm going to die of someone else's hunger, let's call it that, right? And obviously that we, our brain, since it's completely, you know, basically like evolved past the need to just survive, attributes that now to other things. Or so, whether if, you know, a million years or 178,000 years ago, we attributed it to thunder, right? Or Even, you know, 500 BC, we had the God of thunder. And nowadays we attribute it, or since then, we attribute it to different things. You know, someone dying, someone living, whatever that is. But this is an evolutionary capability or evolutionary need that we have. And we kept it, right? We kept it. Even the antelopes kept it, even though the predator is not there. And we kept it as well. So we have tendencies to have a baseline. We have a baseline of how we perceive reality. And in my opinion, we will always meet the level of anxiety, the level of getting ready for action, the level of fight or flight that we would have met if there were real predators just now within our equilibrium. They are assigned to the deadline I have at work or the person that told me that they don't like the smell of, I don't know, a product that we made. It always is being met. The question is, and that's why maybe we need hormetic practices that challenge our, that really put us in an extreme cold, hot exercise, lack of oxygen, whatever that is, Even emotionally and mentally.
- [31:43]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, it's fast. And even think it's like those hormetic resources are also what helps us shake it off, right? When those, when you're eating that again and again. Because most of us are staying in a place where, I mean, I'll ask patients about their life and they'll say, I'm not in stress, but I can look at them. I can look at their labs, I can look at their medical and personal and family history. I can look at the dynamic or the situation in their life. I can look at their wearable devices, you know, their aura rings or their bio straps or whatever HRV technologies they're accessing. I can look at their insulin response. I can look at their inflammatory markers. I can look at their immune system. I can Tell if they're in a suppressed state of immune function or not. Based on this ongoing description you just made. It's like, do we still think we're in a perceived state of threat and how are we responding to it and how do we move on from it? Because we do need these stressors to keep us alive. We do need pain and discomfort to remind us and shake us awake, if you will. But when we stay in it for so long and we become that proverbial like frog in the boiling water, you know, that you sit in there and you're like comfortable. We're turning up the heat and turning up the heat and turning up the heat, and then suddenly you're a boiled frog. That's also not good. Right. And so these opportunities to kind of shake, be like a globe, like a snow globe, where you shake it up and let it resettle out in different ways. That's some of the tools that we can bring through with these mindfulness practices of today. So sort of giving meaning of, well, why, like, did that door just open? Well, my dog was stressing out and she was letting the people on the other side know and they attended that, but our own lives were doing that all the time. So I just, first I want to go read that book. Sounds fascinating.
- [33:29]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [33:30]
Dr. Naysha Winters
And second of all, you just came from a workshop around sort of re engaging this inner wisdom, like how, what tools did you walk away with that you learned to maybe apply in your day to day life so you can meet those challenges, those assaults in a different way.
- [33:46]
Amitai Eshel
So I think, you know, I am a very bro ish type of guy. I love the challenge of seeing if I'm going to quit when things get rough. Right. I come from a special operations background and I, you know, I, I'm a black belt in jiu jitsu and I do this and I do that. That is where I feel, I wouldn't say comfortable because that's part of being uncomfortable. Right. But that is where I get my dopamine hits.
- [34:18]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Okay.
- [34:19]
Amitai Eshel
And I think, think that this is, first of all, especially as a longevity guy, this is finite because, you know, there is a reason it's called a, a Goldilocks zone. Or, you know, that's why I said it's a dose response, as you mentioned, type of scenario where there is a minimal and a maximal dose response that our body can handle of anything. And I can tell you, you know, stressful times or obviously young goose is, is growing and there are growing pains, there is always stress. You know, now it's Black Friday. Let me tell you something. There are some mistakes in shipping, unfortunately. Sorry to everyone who got their. Their, their bioretinol mistaken with Procare over there. Anyway. So to me, the easiest thing to do is to burn it off. Right. But you cannot burn off everything all the time.
- [35:18]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Right? Right.
- [35:19]
Amitai Eshel
So I think what I got from this seminar, it's also very important to explore your mind. This wasn't a seminar, by the way. Whatever it is this week. It is always also important to recognize how your mind behaves with the. With. With minimal stimulation. Where is your mind going? Like being conscious of the. Of the. How your mind invents the tigers. Right. How your mind operates again at minimal stimulation and where it goes and recognize it and maybe detach your visceral response with your identity or with what's going on within. I think it's as important. I think it's to me, by the way, as a human being, it's harder to do the yogic type of practice and sit in stillness.
- [36:09]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Wow. You just reminded me, I mean, I think that part of my, you know, I alluded to in the beginning of our conversation that I'm 53 now at the time of this recording, and I was diagnosed with terminal ovarian cancer when I was 19 and given less than three months to live. And so that ability to meet it head on and just be kind of the warrior and just go through, that was a strategy that worked for me to stay alive. And it was a strategy that pushed me into places that were, okay, like, the only person, my family go to college, the only person to rise, like, to. To hit obstacles and go over them, you know, through or over them. So it was a really powerful strategy until the last few years where that strategy of sort of hitting it head on or powering my way through it, that is what worked really well for too many decades. That actually gave me a lot of accolades and experiences in life is no longer having the same benefit and in fact, may start to tear things down and break things apart. So I appreciate that you said that. The most difficult thing for me to do is to sit in stillness and to sit. To sit in quietude. And I remember a few years ago, I was in India. I was there learning. I was there learning ayurvedic medicine. I was working in a hospital setting and I got very, very sick. Very, very sick.
- [37:23]
Amitai Eshel
Wow.
- [37:24]
Dr. Naysha Winters
I was far, far from a hospital. I was. I had an. An iritis, which is a medical emergency which people can go blind from, you know, so it was major. And I Had to. I. No one spoke English. And I had to go into the fear of. I could go blind. The fear of not being able to communicate my needs. The fear of the unbelievable pain and the fevers and the literally pouring of massive amounts of pus, this color out of my eyes, looking like the devil and certain I was never going to recover from this. And I had to surrender. I had to surrender that these folks knew how to get me through this and through the miracle of them finding a little bowl of these tiny, tiny white flowers and pressing them and knowing exactly what to do with me. Me to wow, five women sit on me. These tiny little Indian women sit on this giant American woman and drop these little white drops in my eyes that felt like a million bee stings in my eyes. Or I was screaming and all over that room. The process, I tell you, it's like I had to then sit. They said, you cannot have light. You cannot open your eyes. You have to sit in stillness. I had to sit with this omelette cake on my head to cool the fire of the pitta that was raging through me, to cool the infections and drew these horrible decoctions. Sit in absolute silence for 10 days out of the sunlight. That was. That was like the hardest thing. Cancer was easy compared to that experience.
- [38:45]
Amitai Eshel
Oh, my God.
- [38:45]
Dr. Naysha Winters
So it humbles me when you talk about that. That moment, because the thing I had to then wrestle was my mind. And I had to wrestle that, but for days, and that was torture. So it was helpful. I need to redo. I need to do that exercise, by the way, not to that intensity. I've asked for different instructions this time around. I need to do that at least on an annual basis, for me to get still enough to actually metabolize and ingest all the things that's coming at me every day. There's a lot of gifts that I miss when I'm in my go, go, go mode. And so it's also important for us to ingest the gifts of it all, not just the challenges of it all.
- [39:25]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah. And it also. I completely agree. And it also even goes beyond. You know, you ended nicely where it is. It ties to everyday life. Like, it also. You know, I remember when we started yungoos, I was obsessed with customer service. I was obsessed with being the person to address customer service. And within the scale of the company, then that was the best thing to do because that made sure, obviously happy customers is very important, but also that we make the changes that we needed to make in order for things to function optimally as Things go on when we reached a certain scale, when, you know, I had to answer 10 times a day, hey, how many pumps should I, you know, fill in the blank? Or does this go with that? Or I have this product, you know, all the questions that are very, very important, but they are important to that person and not for everyone. I, I needed to know, to, you know, how to, to graduate and move on. Even though that was something that was very important for me personally. And that is, that is something that you can only. There is a lot of ego going on. There's a lot of obviously fear and I would say obviously like the aspect of change and resisting of change, but I think that is the adventure of a, of an entrepreneur. I actually am a hundred percent sure that it's very similar with your programs. Like, I'm 100% sure when you were a person 33 years ago going on your own journey or 10 years later educating other people or 20 years later educating the educators. This is almost like the Venn diagram of the person that you need to be is extremely, you know, is extremely. The, the circles are very, very seldom overlap.
- [41:27]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Right. Well, that's very astute and very true. You know, it's like I, I, I approach and, and I also remember struggling and still do whenever I need to evolve to the next level, to go up to the next level, it's really hard to let go of the previous, you know, it's, it's hard to shed the skin of who you were, move into where you're supposed to be or who you were to become. And that also can be a place, that friction, that peeling away of what your identity or your role is or was, whether it's as a parent or as a business owner or as a patient or as a, a lover or whatever. When that role no longer suits you and you're called to something different, it's in that, that, that transition that can be very dangerous. That can create a lot of friction that's very, very uncomfortable. And you can either see it as like, oh, crap, this sucks, or you can see it as, wow, this is intense. But man, am I learning a lot. And man, is this going to make me a better X, Y and Z. And so to more lean into it, that is part of what we, that is hormesis. Right? Leaning into the discomfort is hormesis. Staying put where it's familiar and comfortable is where the poison is.
- [42:37]
Amitai Eshel
It's no mises. Oh, that's a, it's no mises.
- [42:43]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Not book, word, foreign.
- [42:48]
Amitai Eshel
Hey there. This is amitai.
- [42:51]
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- [44:56]
Amitai Eshel
So, Naysha, you know, there are people here who tune in because they, they just don't want more wrinkles. They don't care about anything else. And we love those people too.
- [45:11]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Absolutely.
- [45:12]
Amitai Eshel
So I want to shift our conversation a little bit.
- [45:16]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Absolutely.
- [45:17]
Amitai Eshel
And I want. I wonder. So we spoke about. Obviously. So I just wanted to. Anyone who doesn't know, Naysha, when people in the longevity community talk about cancer, first of all, they refer to naesha. They say Dr. Winters says this. And that is the adopted stance. Right. So we need to understand that your. Your perspective is basically, you're a thought leader right now within the space, or you are the thought within the space.
- [45:53]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Well, depends on who you're talking. There you go.
- [45:57]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, if, if again, if that's the aloe vera and the. That's a joke from before. Anyway, so let's say we have. Let's start with longevity in general. You know, we talked about Hormesis and we can definitely, we can definitely mention it again, but from your encounters with the oncology space, what can you derive from that space and superimpose it on health optimization?
- [46:25]
Dr. Naysha Winters
So good. So good. Well, I mean, first of all, I look at the work that I do and the work you do. It's like I feel like you and I are coming to the same point. You might be from the outside in, and I'm coming from the inside out. We're meeting this beautiful place. It is the person and their expression of themselves, how they see themselves and how the world sees them and how they're able to express their inner and outer beauty, their inner and outer vitality, their inner and outer longevity. And so I do think, I mean, first of all, just even in my world, chronic illness and disease itself, as well as the treatment for such can really wreak havoc on how you perceive yourself and the outside world perceives you. You can really lose sight of your own strength when you're not feeling good about yourself. And so I absolutely give high, high creds to any tool that is going to make someone feel good from the inside out and the outside in. And I think that the, the wellness and beauty space has an opportunity to do it well and to do it. To do it in a way that heals and regenerates in a way that's different than like the L'Oreals of the world. Right. That's just like. Let me just put on the mask and, you know, of. Of chemicals and you look good for a hot second, but not actually fixing anything. This is. You and young goose are about. Is about really bringing in things that are restoring and replenishing and regenerating that outer beauty to meet the inner beauty and vice versa. So I do want to really say that in the oncology space, there's a similar thing that happens, are kind of like the l'oreals. You're like, we're just going to throw this pill at it, we're going to kill it, and then you're going to be good. You're going to ring the bell and you're done. No, you're just getting started. Now it's time to understand, well, why did I end up with this, you know, fresh? And why is my skin behaving this particular way? Why is my, you know, wrinkles show more profound now? Why do my squint lines look more in this place? It's. It's not just a natural aging process. I look at my mother who smokes like a chimney, who's almost 78 years old. She has less gray hairs than I do. And I look at the way she meets the world. She doesn't meet it with as much intensity and stress response as I do. And yet she has a lot of diet and lifestyle factors that are far like Haru. Like my friends and family call her my worst patient. Right. Like the little pieces. But she approaches life differently than I do. And so I learn a lot from her of how to meet the outside world and my inside world in a very, very integrated way. And I feel like the types tools you bring to the table and the types of things, I want patients to know there's a better quality to meet their inside and outside beauty. This is where we need to help each other, because they're going to be looking, but they want to look and feel their best. They want the outside world to see what they actually feel and who they really are, or they want something to be a crutch to help them onto the other side. Well, this is what standard of care is always trying to do. Here, take this pill and you'll feel better. Here, take this cream and you'll feel better. Here, just do this thing. It's the temporary fix, but I get a sense that you guys aren't about the temporary fix that's in the world out there.
- [49:25]
Amitai Eshel
I agree. And also to your point, like, you know, what comes to mind is the whole Blue Zones project. And kudos to them for bringing awareness. Really cool to look at this guy's Dan's journey in life and how big it has become. Quite frankly, an inspiration. Great. What bothers me is that no one spoke with the people about their mindset. Like, no one spoke to them about their, like, communal rituals or like, oh, yeah, they drink wine together. No, it's the together, it's not the wine part. You understand that, right? So that is where I feel like, you know, talking about ancient wisdom and reconnecting to it. I have, I have yet to find a better drug than Community.
- [50:16]
Dr. Naysha Winters
I. Okay, first you just like, you just brought this full on, like shine the light on where this needs to go of the conversation, which is so perfect because let's just use that example. The blue zones we have looked, we're looking at causation, you know, causation, correlation.
- [50:31]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [50:32]
Dr. Naysha Winters
And we're all giving credit to the diet, which is actually a bit manipulated in how they perceive the diet to be here. You know, that's a whole nother story.
- [50:40]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [50:41]
Dr. Naysha Winters
But what we're really missing is what you just said. And this is also the piece when I'm teaching clinicians and when I'm out on stages and when I'm talking to patients, talk about my version of the cdc, the Centers of Disease Control, My version of that is circadian rhythm diet, which includes quality or changes of timing or avoiding it all together, and a community. And so where we were given all the credibility to a particular diet being what's keeping you on this? Plant it longer or the wine. It really is. When you look at this like, especially in Greece, I've spent a lot of time there. I love that part of the world. The real issue is that they fast. And upwards of 250 days a year, an intermittent fast of that, because it's part of their spiritual construct. It's part of their communal, communal construct. And they take turns, at least on the islands, going to each other's little family church. So every time they go, like, this week I'm hosting church, this week I'm hosting church, it's not even about church. It's about the community and the whole, you know, ethos around it and sharing and. And being a contributor to an experience is so, so, so powerful. And so even what I think what the sort of longevity and biohacker and functional medicine community has done actually quite well is create a sense of community. Even if they end up kind of walled off in certain ways or siloed in certain ways, there's a lot more benefit to the actual creation of the community versus the actual product in many ways itself. And just dismiss that you've created something really wonderful here, but you've done so through a very different lens. And what I feel like I do with patients is help them understand themselves through a different lens and understand cancer through a different lens, that anything we're experiencing, like anti aging, anti cancer, anti hypertensive, anti, you know, depression, drugs, any of those, assume that you are against something or that something is perceived as a threat or as an enemy. And instead, the way I approach this with patients in my world, and I believe you and yours, is that this is a natural evolution. Our cells are actually doing a really cool evolutionary process. We want to understand why and we want to help remind them that they're part of this bigger ecosystem, that they're a welcome member of the table and how do we bring them back into the fold?
- [53:08]
Amitai Eshel
It is so spot on, you know, and the reason is this, and especially in skin. So. And it really ties in both of what you said right now and kind of where we were before really ties in, number one, especially with women we consider the more stark kind of waypoints because women's hormonal changes, although we, we, we've, we've, you know, waxed some poetry before about circulations.
- [53:34]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Right.
- [53:34]
Amitai Eshel
We, women's have kind of, Women have kind of two stop points, which is like perimenopause and menopause, which we can see, you know, significant changes in even the body's decision, like a decision tree as to what processes are being maintained and upheld and what processes are basically being either fallen to the wayside or changed. So we talked about like senescent cells, but other ones as well. And what happened is, is that first of all, obviously as someone that is a biohacking community that is trying to preserve youth, we can talk about how do we kind of trick the body to believe it still need to uphold some processes. But on a larger scale, when we're talking about human beings, what happens is that the body is saying, hey, instead of being valued for my reproductive ability, I now justify my evolutionary existence or my, my evolution justifies my existence within a, you know, 55 year old body that is going through menopause or 39 year old, or a 7 year old by the knowledge and intergenerational communication I bring, or intergenerational knowledge I bring to the table. That, and that is why evolutionary is. Evolution has kept me a lot kept me here. Right. And it's pretty cool because what you are saying is again here, this is who I am right now. And the ability of my, or the feeling that I have that I am a contributing member is literally what keeps me alive. Even if I'm going to get a facelift, a boob job, nip and tuck, Botox and inject salmon. It's a real thing. Inject salmon sperm into my face. It's a real thing. It's not a joke.
- [55:33]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yeah, okay.
- [55:34]
Amitai Eshel
Even, even all of that. Yes. Well, by the way, people can just use that spermidine in our product. They don't need salmon sperm. But hey, hey, you know, if the Kardashians do it, it must be good. But what I'm saying is within all of that, we need to understand that the best cue that we can give our body when it's past its reproductive prime is that you believe that you're functioning and contributing member of the society. That's the number one cue.
- [56:06]
Dr. Naysha Winters
That's huge.
- [56:06]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, that's huge.
- [56:07]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Amiti. You know, it's funny, in oncology there's actually plenty of research that shows this that those who have. So I always ask these three Questions of patients. What brings you joy? For what are you grateful? And what is your purpose? If people do not answer those three questions, their prognosis is very poor. But the most important of those three questions is purpose.
- [56:28]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah.
- [56:29]
Dr. Naysha Winters
And if they can't say, like, this is why I am still here or why I'm still choosing to be here, or why my body is still allowing me to be here, they often aren't for much longer. And so that really speaks volumes to what you just described is like, what is my next role? You know, what is the next piece here? And you know, I'm, I think I'm a strange woman on this planet. I'll just say this because I wasn't expected to see the end of my 20th year on this planet. So the fact that I could go through and see what it was like to be a woman in my 20s and to see what it was like to be a woman in my 30s and what it was like to be a woman in my 40s and now a woman, you know, getting deep into my 50s, I did not have the same concerns. When my body and my skin and my hair and my things started just changing. I'm the weirdo that started celebrating like, oh my God, my first gray hair. Oh my God, I'm so excited. I'm so excited about having wrinkles because I smile like a mofo. And I love being able to say that I created these and that, you know, this little jellyfish, you know, this little softer belly when I used to have rock hard abs is like, you know, my husband. Like, I just, I kind of like it. Like, like you just like find these ways that you're moving into your body and being that because I'm allowed to be alive, because I am, I look at it differently. But I also appreciate if women did not have that experience or men did not have that experience, this process could be very scary. And it's like, well, how do you become more curious about it? How do you lean into it? How do you explore it and, and see what is true for you? I think that's exactly what you and a lot of this industry is allowing for folks to have. But my hope is that it becomes less structured of this is how it's supposed to be to. This is how it feels for me now in this moment. And it's okay.
- [58:11]
Amitai Eshel
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And by the way, going back to hormesis, which we spoke before, there is a, basically the center of. There is a center in the brain. And I think you talked about before but there's a center in the brain that is correlated with doing things that we do not feel like doing, that we want to do. So basically doing things that we are feeling an aversion towards, like a, like a cold plunge, for example. And by going through and doing things that we don't like to do, the center grows. And research, basically growing amount of research is showing that this is correlated with. It's kind of the center of willpower, but it is also the center of lustful for life. And that bigger, bigger center. So it grows the more you do things like that and that center, the bigger it grows. That also reflects on, first of all, surviving scenarios that might have killed you, like, for example, cancer, but also in general, longevity. And the idea is that you can have a clear image of why you are here or, you know, resisting the temptation of dying, basically. And obviously it's correlate. It correlates with purpose.
- [59:28]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Yes, yes, and yes. And I, I love that. And I, I again, there's another book we'll have to come up with before that was from. But it's so powerful to me that I think that what we're speaking, I mean, you speak to it beautifully here. I mean, we've touched on concepts of promises, we've on concepts of community, we've touched on concepts of curiosity, we've touched on concepts of being. You know, even if you're not exactly thrilled with a place that you are in your life at any moment, understand that nothing is permanent and that it's a process. And I think a lot of people can get stuck in the trap of permanence, of thinking this is the only way I know I was in that place. That's how I was prior to my diagnosis. I actually tried my life on two occasions prior to my diagnosis because I felt like the trauma in which I came from and the background in which I came from and the resources I had access to, which were very limited, left me very stuck. Right. And so I didn't believe that there was another way around. And so when you don't have that ability to sort of see another path forward, you can get stuck in that place of not even getting curious about the what is or what could be. And so I think that speaks volumes as well to this. And I don't know, I just, I love meeting folks like you on this journey. Who you're taking, you've taken a company that on the outside world people would look at and say, oh, this is just skin deep. But what I've known about you, the Very first instant I met you, like, it was like you and I didn't even like, have to say much. We were just like, hi, new best, where have you been? Almost the sweet bond of connection. You go way beyond the skin, my friend. I mean, you are so much about helping people see themselves in a different way and be able to meet themselves in a new way. And that is something powerful. No matter which path took you to that point, that is a very powerful, powerful, powerful medicine.
- [61:22]
Amitai Eshel
Thank you very much. Actually, I agree with you. I'm very grateful that it actually makes sense business wise because, because, you know, placebo is 30, 40% of the results of any, any treatment.
- [61:38]
Dr. Naysha Winters
So treatment results. So we, you know, nothing wrong with placebo.
- [61:43]
Amitai Eshel
No, no, no. By the way, you know, I remember having a discussion with something, someone about homeopathy and they were like, I said, hey, my friend, even if you don't believe in it, let's say you are poo pooing the entire industry of homeopathy, which I'll, you know, I am not a sage or a cleric or whatever. I am not the one to tell you. I mean, I don't have any epistemological truth to, to imbue here, but I'll tell you that it's the only legal way to prescribe placebo and that is pretty strong. But, but having said, having said that, like, I think a company, like a skincare company does that does not make sure that their users are regarding the product in the most affectionate, whatever, right? Like the best mind space that they can, especially while they're using the product, is, you know, is limiting, is limiting the efficacy, the efficacy of their ingredients, of their, of their formulations. I mean, they're depriving the user of like 30, 40% of the result.
- [62:51]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Wow. Yeah. Huge. Huge. Amazing.
- [62:54]
Amitai Eshel
Listen, Naysha, we try to keep this under an hour. I am the worst at it.
- [63:00]
Dr. Naysha Winters
You're doing beautifully, my friend. We did this, this good.
- [63:04]
Amitai Eshel
But listen, I really obviously this has been a podcast where, where it was really fun to, to talk with you. We didn't really talk a lot about, about oncology, but obviously this is something that when it meets you, you need to, you need to have. There is a reason that all the lawyers that are like car crash lawyers, they have a very catchy, you know, phone number to call, right? You need, you need to have a very clear idea on, you know, the, the route that you are going to take or at least the first steps that you're, that you're going to take. So maybe we should start with like, who is the person even outside of oncology, who is the person that. That normally, you know, wants to work with you? And then like, how do they do it?
- [63:49]
Dr. Naysha Winters
Sure, sure. Well, of course, usually this is the most common person who reaches out to somebody like me or somebody I've trained because I no longer work directly with patients, clinicians globally. But I still consult with these doctors about their patients. So they get me secondarily. First of all, that's a place that sadly, most people who reach out to us are folks that were their hail Mary. They've now exhausted all approaches. I wish that people would find us as their first resort versus their last. That number is changing, that percentage is changing. And more and more people are calling us at the beginning of their diagnosis or their beginning of their journey. Ultimately, cancer is best prevented by just not getting it right. So prevention is just true. Prevention is the only real cure for cancer. And so ideally, I would love to be able to support people on how to become aware of this container and everything they put in, on and around it and how it may contribute to dis. Ease or health creation. That is the ultimate. And then the other is folks who have a strong family history. So I actually worked with a lot of folks from like the Jewish community, for instance, with like Ashkenazi Jewish background, atm, lynch mutations, BRCA mutations, things like that, that have a higher, what they call high penetrance genetic familial tendency towards cancers. There's so much. It's not about going and lopping off your body parts and taking a pharmaceutical. There's actually a lot that can be done to change your. The way your body methylates and detoxifies, which is actually what those gene problems are all about, is that you just don't repair your DNA as well as say, the other person. So there's a lot of tools in our toolbox to help you repair your DNA better. So there's places to come in, in the prevention place, the familial tendency place, as well as during the journey or after for the cleanup. And so folks usually start with my book, the metabolic approach to cancer. Some who've already read that get really excited about my work and research in mistletoe, which is the oldest integrative therapy in cancer. Really well described and characterized and over 2,500 studies, universally over 250 really good, you know, randomized studies. The. The person who wrote the forward to our book Mistletoe and the future of integrative Oncology is the head of solid tumor oncology at Sloan Kettering. It's not like this is this is an alternative by any means, right? That and then our website, mtih.org which stands for metabolictrainstituteofhealth.org this is where we do all of our nonprofit research. Novel formulation, novel delivery system development, respiratory cell respiration studies, mitochondrial studies to take the research to the next level. It's also where we bring in our nonprofit to help patients get access to funds to help them pay for care that's outside of standard of care. Because unfortunately, a lot of the therapies that can really help someone later in their cancer journey are not covered by, you know, standard medical systems in other countries or by our intern model in the US and then my website, Drnisha D R N A S H a dot com has a ton of freebie resources including like, what do you do if you get like a download of what to do if you get diagnosed with cancer? Kind of a little step by step as well as tons and tons, hours and hours, days and days of podcasts and interviews and lectures that are all free for you to ingest and consume and learn and empower yourself and share with others. So a lot of ways to stay engaged. There's a great newsletter you can take part in and see what we're up to. But these are the types of relationships I like to cultivate are people who are bringing his beauty isn't going to go away. Our desire to be beautiful isn't going to go away. I want people to have better access to quality products that are also not contributing to that bucket we talked about in the beginning to contribute to that toxic threshold that we talked about in the beginning. I want things that help people's real essence come alive, that make them feel good about themselves and to meet the world in a different way. And you and your organization does that so beautifully, Amitay. And I'm really honored that we got to have this really engaging conversation finally.
- [67:32]
Amitai Eshel
You're the best. I have one joke to say that, you know, Mistletoe also is a community builder since anyone that is below it has two kids. Anyway, listen, Naysha, you are incredible. I can't wait to see you in person again, which is like very soon in a 4M. Yeah. But thank you so much for this time. As always, it's an absolute pleasure.
- [67:56]
Dr. Naysha Winters
My joy. Thank you everybody.
- [67:57]
Amitai Eshel
Bye.