Trevor Noah

Summary

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Blocks w/ Neal Brennan – Trevor Noah (May 16, 2024)

Episode Overview

In this rich, humorous, and candid episode, Neal Brennan sits down with his longtime friend, comedian, and former Daily Show host Trevor Noah. Drawing from his bestselling memoir "Born a Crime" and his stand-up, Noah discusses the “blocks” that make people feel isolated, the psychological underpinnings of trauma and communication, the role of race in shaping identity, the impact of childhood experiences on adult relationships, and the cultural dynamics of belonging. Throughout, both comedians blend personal anecdotes, vulnerable admissions, and sharp social observations—creating a layered exploration of pain, growth, and human connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Race, Identity, and Belonging

• Race as an Omnipresent, Ridiculous Construct

  • Trevor explains how South African apartheid defined his childhood and race as a constant, yet ultimately absurd social divider.
    • “Being the race that you are is like having a badge... Some people don’t understand why their badges aren’t swiping” – Trevor (03:00)
    • “My mother had to act like my nanny in public just to keep us safe.” – Trevor (06:13)
  • The difference between South African and American racism:
    • In South Africa, racism was overt and codified; in the U.S., it’s more covert and often gaslighting, leading to African Americans feeling defective rather than oppressed.
      • “If you’re gonna oppress people, at least tell them you’re oppressing them.” – Trevor (58:53)
      • “Nobody should ever take for granted what it is like to live in a place where the assumption is that you belong.” – Trevor (54:05)

• Cultural Contrasts

  • Explanation for South African men’s “sunny” disposition:
    • “The ease…that comes with walking into a room or down a street where you assume you belong is something most people don’t realize they miss.” – Trevor (54:05)

• Notable Story: White People and Antiques

  • Trevor gently roasts Neal for his antique décor, unpacking how historical deprivation shapes cultural tastes.
    • “It is very obvious a white person lives here.” – Trevor (49:19)
    • “Most people of color have lived a shitty life…The last thing…they want is choosing the old thing they were forced to have.” – Trevor (50:42)

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Family, Trauma, and Survival

• Growing Up in Apartheid South Africa

  • Trevor was born to a Black mother and Swiss father—an illegal union, treated as a literal crime.
  • Growing up, his mother’s ingenuity (posing as his nanny) and love shielded him from some direct harm but did not erase the dangers.
    • “I would definitely have been taken away if they knew.” – Trevor (06:08)
    • “She would dress up like a nanny…just be like, ‘I’m walking someone else’s kid.’” – Trevor (06:16)

• Mother’s Influence & Communication

  • Trevor describes his mother as both nurturing and innovative, sometimes apologetic for the absence of his father but adamant about her parenting autonomy.
    • “She intended this from the beginning, so there was no fracture in my life.” – Trevor (08:43)
  • Early on, mother and son engaged in written communication to avoid misunderstandings—instilling Trevor’s obsession with clarity.
    • “Let’s do this. From now on, write all your instructions, and I will respond in writing.” – Trevor (22:51)

• Violence and Its Aftermath

  • Trevor’s stepfather was violent, a fact Trevor links to his own comedic drive.
    • “There’s no comedian who is very good…and did not become very good at what they do because they were avoiding or…there’s trauma.” – Trevor (11:36)
  • But does trauma fuel art? Trevor is skeptical, questioning the narrative that “pain makes talent.”
    • “Maybe the only reason I survived…was because this is already who I am.” – Trevor (14:32)
    • “I’m not quick to accept the notion that the trauma makes the people…that very same trauma breaks people.” – Trevor (15:52)

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Neurodiversity, Depression, and the Challenge of Diagnosis

• ADHD and Mental Health

  • Trevor ties his adult depression to undiagnosed ADHD, sharing a moment of clarity after years of therapy.
    • “Depression is oftentimes a symptom of something else.” – Trevor (27:07)
    • “Just knowing [the diagnosis] is, I would say, 80% as effective as treating.” – Trevor (32:54)
  • Discusses how many comedians have ADHD and how stand-up settings can actually suit neurodivergent minds.
    • “Comedy’s very distracting…You can never get lazy.” – Trevor (27:08)
  • Encourages better, more specific mental health understanding—fewer catchall labels, more targeted inquiry.

• Trauma Living in the Body

  • On trauma’s persistence:
    • “I don’t care where a Black person is. Put a police siren on…There’s just a thing…it’s my body, it’s not my brain.” – Trevor (29:23)

• Alternative Treatments (Ketamine Therapy)

  • Trevor shares his (therapist-guided) ketamine experience for trauma, emphasizing the importance of breaking body-brain connections in healing.
    • “Sometimes you need something that breaks the connection between your brain and your body so your brain gets a break from your body.” – Trevor (31:24)
    • On the price of new therapies: “Hopefully the cost will come down…” – Neal (32:07)

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Relationships, Vulnerability, and Emotional Risk

• Emotional Self-Sufficiency

  • Trevor describes how his childhood made him hyper-independent and averse to needing others.
    • “I wasn’t good at needing people…I wasn’t good at opening myself up to be hurt.” – Trevor (37:16)
  • Expresses joy at cancellations: “What a joy. Hey, I won’t be able to make it, Trevor. Oh. Too bad.” – Trevor (37:15)
  • Notes that the hardest part of love is vulnerability—letting your guard down means risking real hurt.

• Communication as Key to Relational Growth

  • Trevor advocates early honesty in relationships, accepting that “the more you are you, the fewer people match up with you.”
    • “Be a more honest version of yourself, but also prepare yourself for the fact that you will also be a more alone version of yourself for a bit.” – Trevor (43:15)
  • Shares about the “drunkenness” of early romance and the perils of overpromising one’s personality in the infatuation phase.
    • “We’re drunk. In the beginning, we do all the things you would only do when you’re drunk. Then, as the alcohol starts to [fade], you start to sober up.” – Trevor (46:19)
  • The gap between growing and seeing results: “You might start hemorrhaging a few friends. You might lose a piece of yourself…” – Trevor (47:29)

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Generational Progress, Responsibility & Gratitude

• Inheriting and Extending the Lineage
  • Trevor sees his achievements as an extension of his family’s generational struggle, particularly his mother’s incredible leap.
    • “I am merely a continuation…my mom got us from Earth to the moon. I’m building in low gravity…” – Trevor (68:58)
  • On gratitude and responsibility: “To be truly grateful for something is to treat it with the respect that it deserves.” – Trevor (64:52)
  • He credits traits like negotiation and adaptability to his Xhosa cultural inheritance.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Covert vs Overt Racism in America and South Africa:
  • “In South Africa... they just told you straight up, ‘We are the whites, and the white people are superior to you.’ America obscures it from you.” – Trevor (58:03)
• On Antiques and Privilege:
  • “Most black people and most people of color… the last thing … is choosing the old thing they were forced to have their whole lives.” – Trevor (50:42)
• On Children Internalizing Parental Instability:
  • “Nuance is the last thing that you are… we don’t traffic in nuance as children. You’re just going, that was good and that was bad.” – Trevor (40:38)
• On Letting Go during Growth:
  • “There might be a moment … where you start hemorrhaging a few friends. You might lose a piece of yourself.” – Trevor (47:29)
• On Friendship and Growth:
  • “Over the years, I saw you evolve… it was fun to be able to stay being friends with you because you were willing to let go of a lot of … cloud that followed you.” – Trevor to Neal (71:29)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Race, Identity & Family (02:23 – 13:48)
• Violence, Trauma & Comedy (11:01 – 16:21)
• Language, Communication, and Mediation (17:42 – 21:37)
• Depression, ADHD, and Mental Health (24:03 – 34:22)
• Romantic Relationships & Emotional Vulnerability (35:00 – 48:07)
• Race, Privilege & Cultural Taste (49:19 – 54:57)
• Belonging, Diaspora & Blackness in America (54:05 – 60:13)
• Gratitude, Generational Progress & Legacy (60:53 – 69:24)
• Closing Affirmations & Friendship (69:24 – 72:48)

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Tone and Language

Throughout, Trevor Noah’s tone is gentle, reflective, and precise — switching effortlessly from humor to insight, never shying from the intensity of pain but always searching for the connective tissue that binds people’s experiences. Neal Brennan offers counterpoints, self-deprecating honesty, and supportive challenge, making the conversation both safe and exploratory. Their dynamic blends respect, comedy, and hard-won vulnerability.

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This episode is a powerful meditation on the things that block us from connection and self-acceptance — from race and trauma to the very nature of language, neurodiversity, and love. Trevor Noah’s self-awareness and Neal’s openness create a podcast that is as funny as it is profound, offering listeners not just information but a deep sense of fellowship in the struggle to heal and belong.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, it's the Blocks podcast. I'm Neal Brennan, and we talk about the things that make us feel like something's wrong with us, and then people relate to us and we all feel better. My guest today is a long time. We gotta be going on 13 or 14 years, you and me, easily. People use the word journey too much. Me and this guy have been on a real journey. He's got five Netflix special. He's the former host of the Daily show, and he's a great person and someone I actually admire with no asterisks. He's taught me a lot. And he's here now. It's Trevor Noah, ladies and gentlemen. Trevor Noah, everybody.

[B]

What's going on, Neil?

[A]

Hey, buddy.

[B]

Did you say we. We talk about what's wrong with us

[A]

on this podcast, by the way. You and I talk about what's wrong with us.

[B]

I thought Blocks was just like. I don't know, like, building blocks for comedy sets or.

[A]

Nope. No, sir. Mental and emotional blocks.

[B]

Oh, I came to the wrong place.

[A]

No, the thing I was saying about Trevor looks like he's not only does he not have problems, he doesn't even know anyone who has problems, but this guy has legitimate problems. He wrote a book about it that's a runaway bestseller. I listened to it after knowing him for 10 years and learned. Actually learned something from it. It's also a great entry into audiobooks. Like, you're a good. You have a nice. You've got a British. Thank you. Thank you very much tone.

[B]

Hashtag colonization. We did it. We did it.

[A]

But it's not all bad.

[B]

It's not all bad. I've been saying that. It isn't all bad.

[A]

I've been saying that. But I will. As I was driving over here, I was thinking about you, by the way. Loves driving. Was gonna drive for Uber at one point. He just loves driving.

[B]

Yeah, that was my dream.

[A]

Yeah. Loves driving. He's lost his flair for television, but for video. But he used to be one of the best. You all right, here's what I want. We're going to get in with. We'll talk about race in that your life is defined in a lot of ways and has been or had been defined by race.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your mother was a black South African and your father was a Swiss white.

[B]

Yeah. They still are great.

[A]

And they were also.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were born a crime, hence the name of the book. Your life has been defined by race, but I also find that you're kind of bored and. Or disinterested by It. About what?

[B]

My life.

[A]

Race? No, about race.

[B]

No, no. I think bored is the wrong word for it. I think it's.

[A]

I don't think bored's the right word, but do you know what I mean? Like, your feeling about it is like, no.

[B]

Okay, so here's how I put it. It's funny. It's like, I think everybody's life is defined by race, but I think I was unlucky or lucky enough to have it, like, put in to know it. Yeah, to, like, know it, you know? I think a lot of people don't know that it's happening to them for good or bad. Funny enough. So I think people are living in a world where, you know, it's like, I always. I try and explain to people as I go, being the race that you are is like having a badge. You know, like those doors that you have at companies to let you indoors. You know what I mean? Those little badges that you go and swipe. And then some people don't understand why their badges aren't swiping the badge. But they don't know they have the badge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it's a FOB that they don't know.

[B]

Yeah. And then some people are just like, what are you talking about? The door opens all the time. And then other people, like, the door doesn't. Like me. I think it's. Yeah, I think it's omnipresent. I think it's continuous. I also think it's ridiculous. That's maybe my favorite thing about race. Maybe that's the thing. I think it's it itself I don't find ridiculous. But, I mean, when you grow up in a country where people define things, like the government says, like, this is what race is, and this is how we're gonna run the country based on it, you start to realize how stupid the whole thing is. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you're 110 away from not having a good time. That's basically what South Africa was back in the day.

[A]

That's insane. And I believe you. I'm sure there are people that got tan and got up. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Just one tan. And then it was like, well, you

[A]

might need to move or stay inside. And you couldn't go outside at times.

[B]

Yeah, but I didn't know. I didn't know. So I don't.

[A]

I don't have his grandmother, according to the book. And what you've told me would explain the law to people.

[B]

Well, so it was weird. So, okay. Just. It's really simple. You go. A country is run by some very racist people. They believe that everyone should be governed by race. White people at the top, black people at the bottom, all the other shades in between. Right. And you can move up or down in the rankings, you know, so sort of like soccer, football, as we call it. But, like, you can get promotion, you can get relegated, depending on your skin color and your hair. So what was weird for me was, technically speaking, my dad was superior to me, and then my mom was inferior to me. So my mom's side of the family would be inferior because of the color of my skin, and then my dad's side would be superior. But then because of that, my gran was terrified. She was just terrified that people would take me away because they couldn't. I, I, I, I would love to sit down one day with, with somebody who, like, worked in the apartheid government or who ran the system to try and understand it from their point of view. I guess they didn't want that either because it just upended their rules or because it exposes the fact that black people and white people can have sex and make things right.

[A]

So they were. It was illegal for your mother and father?

[B]

Yeah, no, fully illegal.

[A]

Fully, fully illegal, which is what made it so hot and there. And so therefore you were, you were not. You were actually born. A crime. Like, literally, you would have been taken. You probably would have been taken away.

[B]

No, no, not probably. Definitely. If they kn. I would have definitely been taken away.

[A]

And you set to walk on the other side of the street from your mother.

[B]

Yeah, well, no, my mom would walk with me, but she would just act like she was my. She would act like she was my nanny. So she would dress up like a nanny and then walk me through the streets and just be like, I'm walking someone else's kid. And everyone was like, yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

What's interesting is I hear you say

[B]

this and, like, think of it this way. Think of it this way. It's so weird to try and explain this in this day and age, but imagine if a black person and a white person having a baby. The baby came out Japanese.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But nobody really knew this because it wasn't allowed. And so then you saw a black woman walking down the street with a Japanese baby, you know, pushing them in a stroller.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You wouldn't assume that the baby's hers, especially if she's dressed like a nanny. So my mom knew this. She intuitively knew that people did not fully understand that this thing could come out of her. So no, One would even question her when she. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. You were just alien.

[B]

Yeah. Cause they're just like, oh, yeah, got a little. Little baby there. That's different.

[A]

But you did feel very loved and cared for by your mother.

[B]

Oh, completely.

[A]

That's what's so interesting about it. It's like it. While it was fraught, it's. She could still deliver the nutrients.

[B]

Yeah, completely. I think any parent who wants to can deliver the nutrients. It's sort of like that movie. Did you ever watch that movie? It was the Brie Larson room. Yeah. So the thing I loved about that movie was, while it was a painful story of, like, a mother and child being kidnapped and kept underground, it was an amazing story of how, like, your parents can literally define your reality. To that kid, the room was the world and everything was fine, and the kid just wasn't allowed to go to certain places. But that was life. The kid was loved. The kid was nurtured. The kid was. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

So I think we take for granted that sometimes your parents. You can be living in a beautiful place and your parents can make it feel like you're in a room. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You can be rich and unloved or dirt broke.

[B]

No, no, no, Completely. So I'm really lucky. Like, I grew up in a world where, you know, my mom has since apologized. She said, you know, she didn't appreciate nor fully understand the ramifications of a child not having their dad there for them all the time. But I do think I was lucky in that she. She intended this from the beginning, so there was no fracture in my life.

[A]

Yeah. Explain that.

[B]

I will meet people who, like, their parents, had a divorce, and I can see the pain. And they go like, oh, I blamed myself. And I was like, did my dad leave because of. Did my mom? Was it because I had none of that? Because there was no fracture. There was no. My mom said to my dad, I want a child. My dad was like, I don't want a child. She's like, yeah, that's none of my business. I just need you to facilitate this. And I think she wanted him because she knew that he wouldn't try and control her or her child, you know, so she would have the autonomy that she. That she wanted in life. And then, lucky for me, I guess, he wanted to be a part of my life when I was born. But even then, my mom was like, we had a deal, buddy. What do you mean, you wanna see the kid?

[A]

And how did she deal with it, like, whenever he.

[B]

She was, like, kind about it, but she was very much like, you do understand the deal. This is my child. And he was like, yeah, but I wanna see it. She was like.

[A]

She, like, smacked the. Right here, buddy. I don't know what to tell you.

[B]

You signed on the page.

[A]

He's right there. There. Look at him.

[B]

Signed on the page. You can look, but don't touch.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

She was. You know, my mom has an innate understanding of things that she was never taught. And that's something I've always admired in her. And I think she innately understood the value of me seeing my father and being with my father, even if that wasn't the original agreement. So I spent, you know, a lot of time with him, and the time that I spent with him was focused and concentrated. So I don't even have. Again, there's some memories. Like, you've got a great joke about it where you say, like, your father would disappear into a book.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But it's like just this idea of, like, I know people who talk about their parents and they go, oh, yeah. My dad was never really. Even when he was around, he wasn't around and he was working on things and he was tired and. No, my dad was full on, like. Door opens, locked in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we were hanging out.

[A]

Very Swiss motherfucker.

[B]

Yeah. We were watching Formula one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. We're hanging out, we're eating food. You want breakfast? You want lunch?

[A]

All right.

[B]

We're going to play with your toys. You're going to see your toys. You like your toys. What's happening?

[A]

Point at you the whole time, what's happening?

[B]

What's happening? Fuck.

[A]

I'm sorry. Okay. And then it did get a little dicey, though, at a certain point. Your mother, beyond the government, looking out for you, trying to pick you up off the street. Your mother remarried. We'll say poorly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And it was violent.

[B]

It was indeed. That's probably the reason we're friends. That's probably the reason we get along. If it wasn't for that decision, I may have just had like, a.

[A]

You'd be with Dave and Chris right now.

[B]

I'd just be like a super rosy outlook. And.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I'd just be like, you know, I don't get this.

[A]

You say that Neil, run.

[B]

It's a little something. Something about it.

[A]

Somebody heard someone walking out of blocks and he goes, yo, my man got a little too introspective. So. But we have talked about the role that violence has played yeah, in.

[B]

There's no comedian. There's no comedian. I believe there is no comedian who is very good at what they do and did not become very good at what they do because they were avoiding or. You know what I mean? There's either. There's a neurodivergence involved or. Or in your divergence multiplied by some sort of trauma, you know, so you were bullied, you were abandoned, you were beaten, you were shamed, you were. Whatever it is. It's like those are the two ingredients to make, like, really, really good comedy, which. I don't know, I'd love your thought on this. I've been thinking recently, I go, what is the value of an individual being tortured if they're going to bring joy to many people?

[A]

Oh, you mean it didn't work? We jam the scenes.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I mean. I mean, like. I mean, like, what is. Like, is there a value or. So, for instance, we live in a world where we go. We don't want anyone to be hurt, and we don't want anyone to live a tough life, and we don't want anyone to. But I sometimes think to myself, if one child growing up in a horrible world becomes Mozart, and that music then goes on to, like, make the world a better place, is it. Is it worth it?

[A]

Was it worth beating little Mozart? Yeah, of course. You know, I've thought about this. Yeah, of course. You had to have thought about this. It's a collateral damage thing. It's. It's similarly like bombing the area for. To fight terrorism and you take out some civilians. No, no, no, no. But it's the same logic.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

The greater good is served.

[B]

Yeah, but that one doesn't have a greater good. Choose another one. You're the best at analogies. Choose another one. I don't like that one.

[A]

It's like if you beat Baby Mozart, but no, it. And then he. What I would say. I would say it's kind of worth it if Mozart can give us the compositions we need and then he gets better and doesn't. Because that's the situation I think I'm in. In that, like, I took my beating, I wrote my jokes, I did a bunch of stuff to feel better, and now I feel better. And I wrote the jokes and I can still write them. Yes, you're in a similar position.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What I'm interested in you and that we've discussed is you took the beatings, and I can't think of very many people better than you at diffusing conflict and making both sides feel heard. And you're like walking contrition. I've said that in the press about you before. You are walking contrition. That's South African. It's like, why you're so. You're a good, you know, avatar for South Africa in general. But when we've talked about the role violence played in getting you there, what do you make of it?

[B]

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think to myself, the violence I experienced, whether it was at a country level, at a societal level, at a familial level, contributed to making me who I am. But then sometimes I think maybe the only reason I survived all of that was because this is already who I am. Does that make sense? Like, we don't know for certain which way it goes. We don't know where it starts. And so sometimes we will say, oh, well, you know, everything that happened to me made me who I am. I was like, oh, maybe who you are is the only reason you survived everything that happened to you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because many people have gone through similar experiences. They haven't come out the same way. You know, and so it. It makes me hesitant and maybe even a little resentful of people who sort of justify terrible things.

[A]

Yeah. Because, you know, Bill said here. Yeah. That's one of the things that haunts me, is who was I supposed to be before all this shit happened to me? He thinks about that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Who was I. Who was I intended to be before the sort of physical abuse? And it's a third option for yours, which is like, you were gonna be. You were gonna be this without the beating.

[B]

That's what I think. I'll be honest. I think that. I think that. And I think it just brings you out of you maybe a little bit more.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or maybe it pushes you into you a little bit more. I don't know which way it goes. But I'm not quick to accept the notion that the trauma makes the people because I think that very same trauma breaks the people. So I think it's something else that we might be missing sometimes. And I argue with everyone therapists about it. I argue with, you know, because I think it's worth discussing, and it's an idea to think about. So when you go like, I'm walking contrition, I think when I say that,

[A]

I don't think you're a bitch.

[B]

No, no, no, I didn't. I didn'. I wouldn't assume that I would think that until you said it now. Until you just said I didn't think you're a bitch. And I'm like, wait, what?

[A]

I don't have regrets. Looking back, I could have not said it.

[B]

So it's funny. This is like a perfect combination of everything coming together, making me think and be the way I am. And it makes me wonder if that. So I come from South Africa. I was trying to explain to somebody the other day that the reason there's no South African restaurant that's successful anywhere in the world and no one even knows what South African food is, is because South Africa is one of the few countries in the world that is like. It is a melting pot. It's like, if you say, what is Nigerian food? I can point it out to you. You know, there's very specific things that make Nigerian food. If you say to me, okay, what's Taiwanese food? I can show you the cuisine. I can. You can't do that with South African. I can show you what all the different cultures eat, But South Africa, there isn't even a South African person. Does that make sense? Like, think of it like, if you. If you're. If you're from Kenya, then you are Kenyan, and you. You speak Kenyan, and you get what I'm saying. It. It goes down. South Africa. No, it's. It's the name of a place that a lot of people live in, and

[A]

with a thousand different regions and tribes.

[B]

Yeah. So you've got tribes, you've got languages, you've got cultures, you've got everything. And I think because I grew up in that, at the time that I grew up in, that I understood the value in finding the gap between people. And I'll be honest with you, I think most conflict in life comes from a misunderstanding of language and not language as we understand it or know it, but all language. So, you know, me having to learn, or me learning different languages in South Africa as the country was changing, helped me learn very quickly that sometimes people didn't like each other just because they didn't know how to phrase a sentence in another language.

[A]

You know, they didn't even know how to communicate their.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. So someone couldn't say, may I please have that drink? Someone would go, you give me that drink. Then you're just like, I'm sorry, you think it's your drink. And now all of a sudden, there's conflict. Yeah, right. I think about that all the time. And I would see it all the time. I would see it with my mom even, you know, she would say something to me. She would tell me to do something, or she would ask me to do something, or she would say what she thought was a request or a command. I wouldn't hear it as such. And then afterwards, I'd get into trouble. And I remember being like, that's not what you said.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She'd be like, I told you to clean the. Whatever. I'm like, but you didn't, though. And when I play it back in my head, I go, she said, make yourself useful. I heard you should finish Mario Brothers. I mean, it's useful to know how the game ends. You know, there's a princess who needs saving. And then she comes back and she goes, you didn't clean the kitchen. And I go, who said clean the kitchen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where most people would immediately just jump to how they think or how they feel. I then start to try and understand where the other person's coming from or why. Because I think it's a language breakdown. I think everything in the world. I know this is a very simplistic way to think, but I think literally everything in the world is a language breakdown. You know, so you're driving on the freeway, someone cuts you off. Even that you've misinterpreted language you've interpreted as them cutting you off, because that's how you're seeing the language. They are going, oh, I saw a gap. I'm trying to take it. I'm trying to get somewhere. And then it happens. It happens across countries, across cultures, across everything. So I've always had an innate ability to see or try and understand what somebody else is saying and then try and bridge the gap between the two.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen you do it. You've done. I've seen you. You've done it with me. Mediation, basically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me the third. Tell the listeners the thing that you're. You and your mother would get into disagreements, and then she would have you write an essay.

[B]

No. So my argument. So I would say to my mom, she's not a good communicator. I still say this to her now. I go, hey, I don't think you're a great communicator. And what I mean by that is, I think a great communicator is somebody who knows how to understand where the recipient of their message is and understand where their. Their message is and figure out the gap between the two.

[A]

The responsibility is the speakers. Just think about how this is going to be interpreted.

[B]

No, it's anywhere for me. I'm saying a good communicator can be a great listener.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's literally. I just Go. That's if. In my definition, if you're a good communicator, it means you are just able to fill in the gaps of what is happening. You're understanding what the other person's saying, or you're intuiting or you're, like, fixing it. Yeah. A good speaker can be a good speaker. A good listener can be a good listener. But if you. You might fail at the other, then I don't think you're a great communicator. And I would say to her, I don't think you're a good communicator, Mom. Which is very tough for me.

[A]

And you're like 10, 11, 12.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, at that age, these are like. You know what I mean? This is like nuclear disarmament. Yeah. It's like walking into the UN and being like, Russia. I think you guys are a little. How can I put this? Bitchy. Yeah.

[A]

And you're 11 and the cops are looking for you.

[B]

So. Yeah, it was. It was terrifying. But there were moments where I would find an opportunity to say something to my mom. And to her credit, she would. I don't even understand. It would. Inexplicably, she would listen sometimes, and I. I say inexplic inexplicably because most parents in and around me of her generation weren't doing that. You know, Now New Age parents might. They might even ask their kids, what am I not understanding? Or what am I not listening to? That's beautiful. My mom was doing it when nobody was doing it. So it was unique. And it would pop up, and I would say to her, hey, listen, I don't think you communicate well. You didn't say this. You think you said it. You hoped I would intuit it, but that's not what you said, and this is not how it came about. And maybe this is where I learned a lot of it. Maybe it's because I was living with someone who wasn't a good communicator. So I had to learn how to. And then the country amplified it, and

[A]

you're rewarded for it, basically.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I said to her, let's do this. From now on, write all your instructions, and I will respond in writing to all your instructions.

[A]

These are chores, rules.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, everything. So you write them all down, and then I will respond in writing. That way nobody is mishearing or misunderstanding or interrupting. You write it down. You give it to me on a piece of paper.

[A]

Wasn't there a part in the book where she would kind of dread when you gave her one. She'd be like, fuck. She'd kind of be like, all right. Like, I know he's going to have a good point.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. My mom always says to me. She still says it now.

[A]

So you were like. It seems like you were friends quickly. You were like. It was father or mother, son, but also like cohorts or something, like closer

[B]

to each one, which. Well, it's weird. She would open the floor is a better way to put it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We were never equals, but she would open the floor. You know, there were moments where it was like, freaks, Speak freely, Mage. You know, it was like those types of things. Just like a moment at the king's

[A]

table where you like to address the lady. Yeah, yeah, great. All right. I guess what I'm trying to track is you've suffered from depression as an adult and have you tracked it down? What do you think? Maybe there's a reason.

[B]

Is it chemical? I tracked it, I tracked it to adhd. That was the. Can I tell you, man, the most frustrating thing. Look, you know me, I love puzzles. There's few things I love more than solving a puzzle. Like something that's wrong, you know, figuring out.

[A]

And if she happens to be gorgeous, even better, go ahead.

[B]

I love solving a puzzle.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

It's been so frustrating to me realizing how little time we've put into. We just put into thinking about the possibility that there is something else that's happening to people as opposed to these broad things. Shame. You suffer from shame?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like an example. I was talking to Gerard Carmichael and I don't know if you've seen Gerard's reality show, but in it he's just having sex everywhere, all the time. Everything wild, like wild. Sucking toes, doing it all.

[A]

Sucking toes, yeah, exactly.

[B]

And so Gerard and I are speaking and I say to Gerard, I go, hey, man, I see you do a lot of therapy trying to dig, you know, and trying to get to the bottom of this. And a lot of it is about shame. They're like, you have shame. That's why you go on dating apps. You have shame. That's why you want to have sex with people. You have shame. That's why you cannot control yourself. You have shame. And I just said to him, I was like, hey, just quick question, has anyone tested you for adhd? And he's like, no. I'm like, it's interesting that you've spent this much time in therapy and the first thing everyone has gone to is shame, but something nobody has considered. If you just look at some of these triggers, some of these things that you talk about, a lot of them can be attributed to something we understand. And so in the same way people have started understanding autism and Asperger's and, you know, all these. I feel like ADHD was one of the weirdest ones, and it's still one of the stranger ones, where people think, and so did I when I was young, that ADHD is, ah, yeah, ah, this kid can't pay attention. Ah. When in fact, what it means is you are unable to control what you pay attention to. So generally, when you have adhd, you are paying more attention than most people, but to the wrong thing, right?

[A]

To Super Mario Brothers, anything. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It can be like a. I can be in a. In a classroom. Let's say I'm in school, I'm in a classroom, and there's like a little bird tapping at the window and the teacher's speaking. My brain is like, that bird is. Do you know what I mean? Most people are able to go, the bird is not consequential to what's happening right now. Turn it off. Focus on the teacher. My brain sometimes goes, that bird, man. That bird. That bird is ridiculous. And I think many comedians have adhd. I think many comedians become comedians and are good comedians because they have adhd, because it's such a perfect environment for ADHD and that you have.

[A]

And again gets rewarded.

[B]

Yeah, but it's also. It's like comedy's very distracting. There's a lot of people in an audience. It's a tightrope. You can never turn off. You can never get lazy. You can never become complacent.

[A]

Forces, focus.

[B]

It really does. It really does. But it forces focus to the state of flow, and it keeps you engaged and it pushes you. And that's a perfect environment for a comedian, and it's a perfect environment rather for somebody with adhd. And so in that I'm talking to Gerard and I go, like, I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but it's just weird that no one's considered this when you have the hallmarks. The guy stopped to get a hot dog and then missed his friend's wedding. Sounds a lot to me like adhd, which a lot of people can misinterpret as just being an asshole, by the way, but it is executive dysfunction. And so when I think of these things and when I've learned what they mean for myself, you know, when I think of life and you talk about. I go, oh, man, you think it's depression. But then you realize that depression is oftentimes a symptom of something else, you know? And I hope we get to the point where we start understanding depression a little bit more. Cause if we just keep saying to people you're depressed, essentially what we're saying is you're long term sad, so we need to make you happy. Like, but it's like. But what is making you depressed, I find is more interesting and actually gets to the core. And you get to that, and you find depression. I. You and I used to talk about it all the time. I was like, man, I suffer from depression. People be like, do you? I was like, I think I do. I feel it all the time. And then when you understand adhd, you're like, oh, no.

[A]

So did you start. You did do depression treatments, though, right? You did Ketamine? You did.

[B]

No, no, no. That was for. No, that was. That was for, like, trauma and for life.

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

Oh, that was different.

[A]

Okay, so this was for, like, a PTSD strain.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's for me. That was for me trying to work past the things that I couldn't on a physical level.

[A]

Yeah. There are things that I'm sure listeners may, you know, relate to, which is. And I've yelled this at therapists. It's in my body.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can't talk this out.

[B]

No, no. And so that. That book that became popular really got into the Body keeps the score. It really does go and hang out with people who've been bitten by a dog or have had bad dog experiences. See what happens when a dog barks around them? They jump before they can acknowledge that a dog is even there. You know, it's the same thing with. I don't care where a black person is. Put a police siren on.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

There's a thing. There's just like a. Yeah, just a.

[A]

It's like a deer hearing a. Yeah, it's just like a lion. Like, huh?

[B]

What is it?

[A]

Yeah, it's like.

[B]

It's like a twitch moment, you know? And you, you, you, you. You know, you're fine. I'm sitting in a restaurant with Neil Brennan. I have done nothing wrong. I have nothing. There's nothing that is going on top of the world. Best.

[A]

You're at a restaurant with me. What could possibly. You've done something right?

[B]

And then I hear a police siren going. There's just a. Yeah, it's my body. It's not my brain. And I think a lot of people have that, and they don't realize that they have that, and then it affects how they feel in certain situations, which then affects how you are in certain situations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so sometimes your body feels things or remembers things from how you were treated as a child when you asked for something and your parents rejected you. And then what happens now when you ask in real life? You want to say something to your partner. Hey, can we. Can we? And they go, can we watch? And immediately your body panics. They haven't even done anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're. That feeling. You try and avoid it as much as you can. So maybe you don't ask for it. Actually.

[A]

No big deal. Don't worry.

[B]

It doesn't matter. Actually, it doesn't. Let's keep it moving. But now the feeling is there and your action is there, and then you're acting against yourself. And that's. It's just such a weird cycle to. To go on.

[A]

You did a few ketamine things, right?

[B]

Yeah. No. So I went for therapy. I've been in therapy for years. Yeah, right. I think you and I spoke about that as well, but I've been in therapy for years, and it was actually one of my therapists who said to me, hey, have you ever thought of trying something that would go beyond the talk therapy? I was like, what do you mean? And she said, well, there's this. There's this therapy that some really good therapists are doing. Ketamine therapy. And I was like, I've heard of ketamine. I don't do drugs, lady. I know where this goes.

[A]

Look, lady.

[B]

I was like, I know where this goes. You know?

[A]

Next thing, I'm, like, hanging out with the wrong crowd.

[B]

I'm in, like, a cult in Hollywood.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Buying hot dogs with Jerrod Carmichael. I understand.

[B]

I was like, I know where this goes. But then when I understood it better, when I did a lot of reading because I wasn't comfortable with it, I understood that sometimes you need something that breaks the connection between your brain and your body so that your brain gets a break from your body in processing the information. And so your. So your mind lets you go. And that's. With a good therapist. I wouldn't tell anybody to do it without a therapist, because I don't think you'd get the same results.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need proper guidance.

[A]

Hopefully the cost will come down because it's still pretty costly.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah, Getting. Doing ketamine with a therapist. It's just. It's. Yeah, it's just. It's like a new thing. So It's.

[B]

Oh, it's like prohibitively high in that way. I thought they'd gotten it down in some places, like Colorado and New York and everything.

[A]

Yeah, it's potentially, yeah. My question is. So it was in concert, the resolving some PTSD and getting a adhd. Was it medication or was it just acknowledging that you had it?

[B]

No, the diagnosis is more important than most medications, I would argue. And I think this is the same for most things in life. Just knowing is, I would say, 80% as effective as treating. Because when you know, you now understand. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[A]

It's. You're not crazy. There's a big amount of relief to. No, you weren't imagining things.

[B]

You're not crazy, and the people around you weren't imagining things. So I've now learned that I'll have to tell people in my life, you know, and I wish I knew this before in previous relationships. I will tell people now. You know, my siblings know, my family knows, my friends know. So they know that in a moment, you may feel me switch in a way that doesn't seem. Sometimes people tell me it seems like I've tuned out, but I haven't. To me, I'm fully present to me. But literally, what's happened is my attention has shifted in a way that people can feel. So in my head, you may have said something that has just taken me to go, like, huh? Like, what is yesterday? What happened? I was chatting to friends and then one of them said, yeah, the shower head is covered in. It's covered. It's like. It's got like a green scaly stuff. I gotta fix that. And the conversation carried on. And then my brain went, wait, is the green. If you get green, does that mean you have hard water or soft water? Does LA have hard water? Does it have soft water? I think it has hard, hard water. So it's got additional minerals in it. But I don't think the green. Because green isn't green. Copper, that's. That's like a. Huh. That's a chemical process that happens when the copper's in the pipe. So what you're probably seeing is a manifestation of the copper in the pipes. Does vinegar help? I think I've read something about vinegar. I'm gone.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Now, if you know me as Trevor, you just be like, hey, some friends do that. They just be like, yeah, come back. People who don't know me sometimes will be like, you seem disinterested.

[A]

Am I boring you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. People will say that. People will Very quickly think that I am just, you know, and it's again, it's one of those things. If you don't take it personally, everything in the world opens up to you.

[A]

It's like, huh, all right, well, that's an area I wanted to discuss. Your ability or luck or skill in romantic relationships?

[B]

My ability or luck or skill in romantic relationships?

[A]

How do you find them? It's hard. You don't want to generalize. But are you getting better at relationships? Is there a goal? Because we talked a lot about like the overall idea of procreation, lifelong mate, et cetera, et cetera. We both had varying opinions.

[B]

I think I'm getting better at it. But you always think that when you're not in one.

[A]

So you're the best boyfriend you've ever been right now.

[B]

I mean, when you're not in a relationship, you're an amazing.

[A]

Crushing it.

[B]

You're an amazing partner. Are you kidding me? I'm understanding, I'm caring. Yeah. Your tank is always full when there's nothing draining it.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? Uh huh. Or not even.

[A]

Yeah, draining. I like the word draining.

[B]

No, it's draining. Draining is not a negative, nor draining is just, you know, it's a process that happens when something takes from another. Yeah. So it is draining. And if there's nothing draining, then your tank is always full. And so it's easy to move through life going, my tank is full, my tank is full, my tank is full. You know, and one of the best things someone ever said to me was they said, they said was a relationship therapist, actually a good friend of mine. And she said, you'll think you fixed everything that you needed to fix until you meet someone who reignites all of the questions that you haven't answered from your childhood. And that's fundamentally all we're doing. You know, it's like you're going from one relationship to the next, being forced to answer questions about yourself that have generally come from your childhood, sometimes from previous relationships. As an adult, what are your.

[A]

What questions pop up for you?

[B]

Oh, wow. I mean, the big ones. The big ones I've always had to work on was understanding how me growing up in an environment where I didn't always believe that my needs were met or would be met meant that I was extremely self sufficient. And I still am. But then what that can do is it could put me in a position where I wouldn't know how to rely on other people, I wouldn't know how to ask for help I wouldn't know how to lean on people. I would like. I used to say, you and I used to joke about this, actually, like, getting canceled on. Oh, I loved it. Oh, what a joy.

[A]

The nicest thing you can do.

[B]

What a joy. Hey, I won't. I won't be able to make it, Trevor. Oh. Oh, too bad.

[A]

Yeah. I love.

[B]

Never loved my face.

[A]

I've never felt more sane.

[B]

Yeah. In that. That moment. But what it. What it taught me was I wasn't good at needing people. I wasn't good at opening myself up to be hurt. And I think these are all fundamental components of love. A fuller love, you know, is putting yourself in a position to be hurt. Like, the hardest gut punch somebody can give you is when you open your arms wide to hug them. If you keep your arms tight, you can protect yourself pretty well.

[A]

I don't even wanna hug.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. They can hug you, but if you stay like this, you're good. Um, so it took me a while to understand that the way I had grown up and the relationship that I had had with my mom and my world, more importantly, Funny enough. Cause sometimes we think it's about the relationship with the. By.

[A]

When you say my world, what do you mean?

[B]

My stepfather was an extremely violent person. Had problems with alcohol, you know, and because of that, I didn't know where my world would or wouldn't be. And my mother was in a situation where she was trying to make the world seem normal or tell me that it was gonna be fine, but it wasn't fine. And I think this is something parents take for granted. Oftentimes you're trying to be good to your kid. And so you go, it's okay. Everything's gonna be okay. Hey, that won't happen again. This won't happen again. But when it does, at some point the kid goes, I don't know if you know when things are gonna be okay or not.

[A]

Yeah, they lose credibility.

[B]

Like, I don't know if you've ever been on a flight. Have you ever been on a flight? I don't know if you've ever been on an. Where a pilot tells you ahead of time there's gonna be turbulence. They come out here, folks, we've got a bit of turbulence. We're just gonna ask you to keep your seatbelts fast. They do that whole thing. When you hit the turbulence, you have a new measure of confidence in the pilot. You're like, oh, well, the pilot told me it was coming. Pilot told me it was coming. But then you'll Be on a flight where they say nothing. You hit bad turbulence, flight attendant has to sit down next to you, which is like, that's never planned. And then it's chaos. And then the pilot comes back and goes, all right, folks, looks like we got through the worst of the bumps. Should be all good to move around the cabin. And then it hits again, like 20 minutes later. You've lost all. Now you look out the window trying to spot clouds that might in some way shape or form screw up this flight. You just lose a trust in that person's ability to keep you safe. And I know that happened to me as a child while my mom was trying to do one thing, which many parents try and do, which is protect you and paint a picture of the world that they feel will, you know, will bring you peace and calm. They don't realize what they're actually creating is a world where you don't trust them.

[A]

Yeah. And also she's your mother, by your account and all accounts is like, she's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She just. But she's still a woman in a fucked up romantic relationship. And she might prioritize that over you guys or you. And then. And you're just caught in this thing.

[B]

Yeah. You just don't know. And the thing is, as a child, nuance is the last thing that you are. You know, we don't traffic in nuance as children.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're just going, that was good and that was bad. This happened. And you know what they said is, that is not what happened. I need to do a better job of protecting myself. So in relationships, what I then learned was both romantic and otherwise. I learned that I grew up assuming that people wouldn't be there or situations wouldn't be the way they were going to be. And so what I would have to do then to protect myself is prepare. Eliminate the element of surprise and prepare myself for all possibilities. And so then I just, I would live my life like that.

[A]

But now you assuming the worst. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you can't be a great partner like that.

[A]

Did you find the thing where you. Because you expected would happen?

[B]

In what way?

[A]

Meaning it was a self fulfilling prophecy kind of thing. And I think people use that as an excuse like, well, you don't trust me anyway, so I gave you something to not trust me about or whatever. But I often wonder, like, if you then attract people that aren't gonna be reliable or. I mean, I think my big question as you're saying this is like, how do you make a conscious choice to do a very Subtle emotional thing that you weren't in control of shutting off. How do you shut it? Turn it back on?

[B]

So this is by no means advice, and I'm very careful to give like a one size fits all solution to anybody. But I feel, at least from my

[A]

experience, I'd also like to say you've been happy in all the relationships I've known. I'm not trying to just like, come

[B]

to me and be.

[A]

I'm just.

[B]

No, no, no. I mean, to your point, that's, you know, blocks. It's understanding why something happens when it happens the way it happens, you know, repeatedly. So I think anybody who finds themselves in relationships will find that they have some blocks that they don't understand. So I'm completely with you on that. And it goes to what you're saying, Are you better or are you. You know, what I started realizing was, again, in the same way that diagnosing ADHD was more important than treating it, I think communication in a relationship is more important than fixing the things about yourselves that are causing you problems. Problems in that relationship. If you just learn to develop effective communication between the two of you. Which starts right at the beginning. And I mean, like, right at the beginning. We take it for granted on the app. Take it for granted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It all starts with like the smallest, like the smallest contortion of who you are. I would say to people, be a more honest version of yourself, but also prepare yourself for the fact that you will also be a more alone version of yourself for a bit.

[A]

You gotta risk it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, because two things will happen. The more you are you, the fewer people match up with you. If you're a one size fits all cap, you are going to fit all heads, but you're gonna stretch in all different directions. And when people put you back down, you don't even know what. What you are. But when you go, like, this is my size, there's gonna be fewer heads that fit you. And so it's very difficult to do that, especially if you've done the other way around.

[A]

Well, there's a. You wanna be liked.

[B]

Yeah. And you wanna have people, you wanna have love. You know, you wanna be connected. Yeah. If there was one thing I would, I would say has changed for me, and it's something that I would, I would encourage people to try is see what happens when you say out loud, the thing that's happening in your head or in your world or in your anything. See how much people embrace you. You know, say to somebody, they go, hey, let's go. To dinner. You know, you plan a thing a week in advance. See what happens. If you tell them, like on the day, hey, I'm feeling. I feel like trash. I don't even wanna speak to another human being right now. I had a tough time at work. I don't, you know, don't make up any story. Just be like, I just don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

See what happens. That person might show you a certain level of empathy that you weren't expecting. You might also be showing them a piece of you that might be valid in knowing if you're gonna go into a relationship with them.

[A]

Yeah. If you do it in a kind way as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like you open yourself up, you just say, man, I'm struggling. Or this is not gonna be. Or this is, you know, even small things I've learned. Even when you're like in the throes of love. Maybe the reason I think I'm better now is because now I can tell you when I'm drunk in love, I can tell you as the person I'm drunk in love with, I can go like, hey, I'm drunk right now. I would not normally do this. So usually on a Saturday or Sunday, I'm probably gonna watch a Liverpool game. I'm drunk right now. And so because I'm drunk, I'm gonna come with you to the farmer's market. But I wouldn't usually.

[A]

This is all hypothetical, not based on a true story at all.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think there's something beautiful in that. Obviously I'm biased cause I'm the one saying it. But I think it's nice for somebody to know that this isn't me. You make me feel like I can do or be something that I'm not. And in this moment, I'm having a lot of fun and I'm enjoying it. But please don't assume that this is me. This is not who I have been. It might be who I become, but this is not who I've been. So there's a good chance that that won't be who I will be going forward. And I think that's where we screw each other over in relationships, is we're drunk. In the beginning, we do all the things you would only do when you're drunk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then as the alcohol starts to

[A]

drink and when you pretend like I'm not drunk, this is who I am.

[B]

Yeah, this is me. And then you start to sober up.

[A]

And by the way, you don't have to be drunk. You just I think there's that, like, people pleasing window.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is two or three months.

[B]

I still think it's a drunkenness. That's what I mean. It's like a. It's like, you know, it's. You're intoxicated is a better way to put it. You're intoxicated by that person.

[A]

And do you find that you're fitting less hats? Definitely or less hats?

[B]

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Which is. Which is good. It's a lonelier place to be in. People forget the jump. In the same way that people will quickly talk about AI creating new jobs, but then forgetting that there's a gap between AI coming out and people finding what the new jobs are. That gap could be two years. That gap could be 20 years. We don't know what the gap is. We've never known what the gap is with technology. I think the same applies to relationships. You don't realize what the gap in your life will be when you make a positive change. You don't. We just assume you go to therapy, you get better, and then your life immediately gets better and you see the results. No. There might be a moment in time where it's like, oh, you might start hemorrhaging a few friends.

[A]

You'll lose some friends. Yeah.

[B]

You might lose a piece of your world. You might lose a piece of yourself.

[A]

Partner, friend. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Even, like, how you thought you were.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you start realizing, huh, a lot of the glue that kept this together was me bending to be something that I'm not.

[A]

Yeah. Have you had a thing where you say, hey, I'm drunk. And then they still grant. They still expect that in the future, even though you told them. This is completely conditional.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

And then you. And you can't buy it.

[B]

Oh, definitely.

[A]

And it's like, yeah, I get how you would think that.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

No one wants to believe, like, he's drunk. They think he really likes me. It's like the. It's the stripper thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, yeah. That's a perfect analogy, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The troopers will literally look someone in the eye and say, hey, this is just my job. I'm gonna make you feel like I love you, but this is just my job. And that person goes, I get it. And two hours later, they're going, so do I wait for you afterwards? Or.

[A]

What's your street name? What, you've never told anyone it before? Yeah. All right, well, I guess my other question for you is there were two racial things that I want to just cover. Two Racial things you've told me in our friendship that I think are. I would like other white people to hear them. One of them was, you came to my house in Venice and I had antiques in the. Not even a lot of antiques, just a couple little accents. And Trevor goes, it is very obvious a white person lives here. To which I said, what the hell does that mean? Please explain to people what you meant by that.

[B]

So what I was saying was. Okay, so what I was saying was this. I love that we've had these moments.

[A]

It wasn't tense, but it was funny.

[B]

What I meant in that moment was the same thing. I mean, when I see how much white people will love, you know, like, red brick walls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In their, like, homes.

[A]

Yeah. Like New York, Yesteryear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They love that throwback.

[B]

What I was saying to you was, I was saying there's a strange thing that people don't realize about what you like and how you like it, being based on how you were able to access what you could or couldn't. So in a cleaner way, what I, what I'll say is this. I've noticed a lot of white people love to dabble in old things or terrible things because they don't realize that they have the luxury of not choosing those things. And so that becomes a choice now. You know what I mean? If you go, like, I only buy my clothes from a secondhand store. Ah, yes, yes. You see, my chair is a very old one. It is a hundred years, I found. Ah, this is how I. I'm happy for you as a person. But the reason I was saying it to you, as my friend, is I was going. I was just saying, like, I was like, oh, it's clear white person is here. Because most black people and most people of color have generally lived a shitty life. That's changing over time, obviously, but most people still have them.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Most people have lived that. And the last thing I can see like an African person doing. Anyone who's lived that kind of life is choosing the old thing that they were forced to have their whole lives.

[A]

Do you know, trying to get away from old stuff.

[B]

Do you know how many times I've gone into a. A rich person's house, some white person's house, and they'll have on display something that was literally the definition of my poverty. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Give me an example.

[B]

One of the more common ones I've seen is in very high end design. They'll choose like, like a basin, you know, like in the, in the bath, bathroom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The basin they'll choose.

[A]

Like a copper.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The basin they'll choose to wash their face. And you see this? And you go like, wait, you chose this?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're like, yeah, it's just the patina. And I love those words, the patina. Just seeing how it has. How it has aged. Like, I'll see people buy things that are visibly, as they say, distressed. Then I'm like, yes. You know who else was distressed? The people who own those things.

[A]

That's when they're now the people who made them.

[B]

Yes. And so I found. I found that amazing. It was like. It's like, in a funny way, and this is the thing you and I enjoy is like, you know, not all these conversations have to be heavy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sometimes people get so heavy about them. Oh, yes. You take for grant. I'm like, no, it's just funny to take a moment to realize your privilege.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's just funny.

[A]

Remember my ancestors.

[B]

It really is. It is funny to realize that your measure of luxury may not be what you can and cannot get, but it may be how you are able to process the world because of how the world has processed you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even, like, let's say, dressing. There's no denying, like, white people can

[A]

dress a certain way, but we can dress bummy.

[B]

Yeah. Full on.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And it just. Yeah, that's just your thing, man. Yeah. And you can walk into stores and people will help you. And people like black people pretty much around the world always know you dress the way you wish to be treated, you know, and even then, there's no guarantee. So your clothes with holes in them and disheveled and things not working.

[A]

Make sure the off white logo is visible. If you're gonna wear something distressed, make sure the off white or the Gucci or the whatever, the Hermes. It's a suit of armor.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It really is.

[A]

Yeah. Which is why I'm glad that I wanted some of my white listeners to hear that. The other thing you said that I found really interesting was spent time with your South African friends, and they're all like, very sunny guys. And I said, what's the. Why are these guys preternaturally sunnier? South African men are sunnier than African American men in general, obviously. And you had an interesting answer for me.

[B]

Well, I think generally, again, we're Generalization. Yeah. This is a generalization.

[A]

We would never. It's not what we do. Go ahead.

[B]

I think nobody should ever take for granted ever, ever, ever take for granted what it is like to live in a place where the assumption is that you belong. Nobody should take that for granted. The ease, the bliss and the peace that comes with. With walking into a room, walking down a street, gathering in a place or a space where the assumption is that you belong carries with it such a. Such an ease, such a. It's almost like a lifting of gravity in a way that I think people take for granted.

[A]

And you're talking about the South African men at this point?

[B]

Completely. And this is South African men and women. Yes.

[A]

Even under apartheid. Yeah.

[B]

Because you still remember this. You still saw you more than you didn't see you. You were still showed you more than you weren't shown. Not you. You know what I mean? It's such a weird thing. And I didn't understand it, and I don't think anyone can fully understand it unless they come to America and they're really open or they are not white. Then you can, like, then you can see it and you can feel it, you know, living in a world that. First of all, it's not like. It's not like you have a happy story as to why you got there first of all, you know, and people take that for granted. Let's just start with the base. Right. Is many people have a happy story about how their people came to America. Even that on the surf, it's just like a fun thing. Ah, My dad wanted to start a business. My great grandfather believed that he could find a better way. My great, great, great, great grandfather and grandma came here because here's a picture of them. Exactly. They came here. Not they weren't brought here, they came here. That already starts off. Starts the story off in a very different way. Right. It robs you of a certain thrust and impetus. Because if your family came here for a certain reason, there's almost an underlying idea that you must carry that on. And you can carry that on because that was the intention and the pur. Their arrival. And so you're imbued with it in some ways. If you don't have that, if your people were brought here for forcefully, then there's a lot of, like, why am I here now? It would be one thing to be brought somewhere forcefully and then like, welcomed and allowed to access every aspect of that place. But now you're brought there forcefully and then told that you shouldn't be there. And then I. Yeah, I can see people being like, well, you do realize we didn't try and come here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What shouldn't.

[A]

We shouldn't Be in the place you brought me to. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's. That was the. Do you remember the whole scuffle we had on the other continent?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's sort of where this began.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I said, I don't want to

[A]

come, I remember saying, I don't want to go. And you were like.

[B]

And now you go back to. Yeah. Do you know where I came from? I came from Africa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you take that for granted. And then you take for granted how many times America has bait and switched black Americans. You know, it's bait and switch. Bait and switch the whole time. All right, here's your freedom from slavery. Is it, though? You want to share crop for a bit? All right, all right. Here's your freedom from that. Now, you can own houses. Or can you Jim Crow? All right, all right, all right. You're free. You can participate in any way. Or can you, though? Every time. How would it not make you a little bit harder, a little bit more suspicious, a little more paranoid, a little less jovial?

[A]

And another thing that you pointed out that I can just remind you of, what you said is like. And it leads you to believe that you're defective in some way.

[B]

Oh, definitely.

[A]

Whereas in South Africa, as you explained it to me, the white people were just like, no, no. We just think we're better than you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. I think that's one of. I always say this, and it's a strange sentence. It's a strange sentence to say, but I will always say it. The one upside of apartheid was that it was in the open. They just told you straight up, hey, we are the whites, and the white people are superior to you. That is why we are doing this. And then you would go, okay. That is why they are doing it, because they think they are superior. It's there. America obscures it from you. So in America, you go, why did I not get that job interview? And America's like, I don't know, Damar. I have no clue. You're like, huh? I sent a resume, had the exact same credentials as my friend Chad. I don't know what happened.

[A]

There must be something wrong with you,

[B]

Damar, man, That's like the ultimate form of gaslighting. If you're gonna oppress people, at least tell them you're oppressing them. I think one of the worst things that happened in America was for so long, and in many ways, still today, black people are made to feel like it's not. Is it happy it's finished now? It's long gone. It's finished. It's long. And then every now and again, popped in. You're like, nah, but that's just an isolated. No, that's just. That's an anomalous. That's a. I. I don't get how that wouldn't make you, you know, a little bit harder. Like even. Even having to code switch. I think of how. How wonderful it is being a black person in Africa. You are continuously surrounded by you. And you see you and you go everywhere. And you are you and you. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. I flew Ethiopian airline. And on the video, I'm watching the safety video, and I'm like, what is different about this? And all the animated characters were black. And I was like, I've never seen this. Just like people sitting down and putting on there. And I was like. It was like. It was like a Twilight Zone.

[B]

I was like, it's weird, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Your brain doesn't realize how. That's what I mean.

[A]

Yeah. So it's like to. To make it. To round the episode off. In some ways, South Africa has been given the diagnosis.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And just go like, no, we think we're better than you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you lose out, it's because we rigged it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not because there's something secretly wrong with you. Whereas here they rig it and don't tell black people and they go, exactly. You gotta. You go ahead and eat yourself up. Shoot yourself up inside. What do you make of your life overall? Meaning, why do you think this life's been given to you?

[B]

Or.

[A]

And what do you. Are you. What do you. What do you make? It's like, pretty. From the outside in, it's a pretty public life. It's a pretty big life. And I wonder, do you. What do you make of it?

[B]

It's funny that you. That you'd say it like that. Why do you think this life has been given?

[A]

Because I think you're successful, but I also think there's something extra.

[B]

But saying that, like, why do you think this life's been given to you? Strangely enough, I find myself thinking, why has this life been given to us? And by us, I mean myself, my family, and the people who are directly tied to me. And the reason I say us is because I didn't always think this, but I do think now you are literally a continuation of the previous generation. It's like an ongoing conversation with existence and you are just asked to carry it on. And so I can never take the credit, nor do I ever try for where I am now, because I genuinely just think I'm a continuation of the conversation that my mother has been having with existence. And then I'm just carrying it on. Like, if I look at where my grandmother was in her life, like she lived in a factory and worked in a factory essentially most of her life. You know, her hands, she had an arthritis where she could barely open her hands because of how much time she had spent, like, sewing things. And just like she was the machine in the factory. And so her hands were stuck like this. Do you know what I mean? That's my grandmother's world. Never living in a city, never seeing democracy until she was like 70 something years old. 70, 80 years old. But I mean, like, that's her life, that's her world. But she makes a series of decisions. She engages in a combination of luck and determination that just move her a little bit forward. And then like my grandfather. My grandfather does the same thing. I don't know. You know, those ones were harder to get to. I talked to my grandfather and my cause, they would just go to religion immediately.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I think even if you look at, like, the Xhosa people as a whole, I don't think it's any mistake that Xhosa people in South Africa placed such an importance on learning and negotiating and thinking. And so when you say to me, when you go like, oh, man, contrition and the way you think, I can show you history books where the Xhosa people were one of the few tribes in South Africa that figured out a way to not get the most hostile response from the British. You know, everyone got a hostile response, but they just figured out they were like, hey, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you kill us or before you enslave us, what about. What about we run this part for you and we'll be under the queen? We know you like the Queen. And maybe we. Ahahaha. I see your eyes lighting up. There's something here. There's some. But that's. That's amazing. That was passed down to me. So there's an element of how I am that literally comes through my DNA. It comes through my culture. It comes through my people. Do you get what I'm saying?

[A]

I know, I've seen it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's why I say, like, when you were leaving the show, when we talked about whatever, I was like, you have. You're like a spiritual force unto yourself. And I don't say that like, it gives me no pleasure to tell a friend of mine that he's a spiritual force also. Go fuck yourself. Of course, that goes without saying. You're a spiritual force. And I've even seen you do it at the Daily show where you would be able to sort of channels too. Powerful word, but just sort of like, you could just know how to say or do something that's like, you didn't. There's no way you thought of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

And it's almost like you are just like a continuation of a phenomenon. Do you feel responsibility for it or you just feel like, I think I can do this?

[B]

I often think in life, responsibility and gratitude overlap in many ways. To be truly grateful for something is to treat it with the respect that it deserves, I think. And so I think sometimes responsibility overlaps with that because responsibility feels like it's a have to sometimes. But with gratitude, it's like, no, it's a. Want to get to. You know, it's like, wow, I get to. Yeah, this is really wonderful. It's an opportunity. If I look at the generations before me, I often think of my mom's world, and I go, like, how did she. I still think of that. I'm like, you don't have the Internet in that way. You know, Like, I look at my life and I'm like, ah. I look at the schools I went to and the world I was growing up in and the technology I was exposed to, and yeah, in some ways I go, like, of course. And then I look at my mother and I'm like, I mean, are you kidding me? Right? And then I'm like, my dad, like, the little spice that he added into my. You know, even my stepfather, who didn't like, who had a terrible side of him, but he also imbued me with a little bit of goodness, and there's things he added to my world. All these ingredients made me who I am. Right. And so I don't find it as amazing in a way, because I look at the ingredients my mom had and I go, how on earth did you do it?

[A]

Do you feel like you have significantly more ingredients than her or just more. More opportunities to express them?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

You have more opportunities?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

But the same ingredient.

[B]

People will look at me and go, like, oh, what you've done, Trevor? And I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't know what she's done for me. I think when I look at the family, I go, oh, what she's done?

[A]

So you don't even consider your you're not even the biggest jump.

[B]

No, I don't think I am. Genuinely.

[A]

Who do you. Who. When you think of, like, generational jumps

[B]

in terms of, like, from the family. I know because. I mean, I don't know how deep it goes, but from the family, I know easily my mom, because I go, she's the person who had to learn to become fluent in English when a school system wouldn't teach black people. She had to learn subjects that black people weren't allowed to learn. She had to, or chose to, in fact, learn to. Started learning, like, computers and typing when you couldn't get a job as a typist or a receptionist or anything in an office that wasn't a cleaner. As a black person in the country, she was a black woman as well. You know, in a culture that said that women couldn't be the head of a household. She learned languages that she didn't need to learn. You know, she explored cultures and worlds that she didn't have to explore. She, like, when I look at that, I go, whoa. She was up against the country. With me, someone would be like, man, how did you do it? You're doing comedy in South Africa, and now you do comedy in America. I mean, that's impossible. Then I'm like, yeah, but no one gets stopped when they get on the plane. You know, if someone says, I'm gonna go try and do comedy in America, the government doesn't arrest them. Yeah, she lived in that world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That to me, seems. I mean, that, to me, seems insurmountable. You know, when someone says, you're not allowed to fraternize with anyone of a different race, that seems insurmountable to me. All these things seem insurmountable. First person in our family to, like, outright own a home. First person in our family to. To start their own business. First person in our. There's so many. So in my world, I. Yeah, I. In a way, I think of it this way. It's like sometimes I feel like people are commending me for building the first house on the moon. And then I go, like, yeah, but you understand. My mom got us from Earth to the moon. I'm building in low gravity, and that's. I guess it's a little difficult. It is hard, and not many people have done it, but I don't understand how this trip even happened, you know? So that's why I say I feel like I'm only a continuation of. I feel like I'm merely just continuing something that started long before me.

[A]

Well, it's a shame you're so bad at relationships. There won't be a next generation. It was great talking to you. It was great talking to you. You're one of my favorite people, and I appreciate the. I appreciate our relationship, and I appreciate our encouraging each other.

[B]

And can I just say, I'm proud of you, Neal Brennan. When I met you, you didn't smile. I mean, you did, but it was like an angry smile. I don't know if your listeners know when we first met. First time we met.

[A]

2008 or nine, I don't know, years.

[B]

I'm terrible at that. I just know the stories. First time I met you was in the Comedy Store in Los Angeles. And I remember it was in the hallway, and I was following you on Twitter at the time. Twitter was still new back then. Good old Twitter. Ah. Twitter was like a community back then. And I was following you, and then I saw you, and I was like, hey, Neil Brennan. And I remember you were like, almost. You didn't say it, but it was like, who the fuck are you? And I was just like, man, I love your tweets. They're so funny. I love your writing, everything. And then. And then you went. You're like, oh, wait, you're the guy. Are you the reason that people are following me with, like, exclamation marks in their names? Cause you were getting followed by people named, like, Olisa and Nomatam Sanga and all of.

[A]

I'm so scared even hearing them.

[B]

I remember you were just like, yeah. You're like, why do you. And then you sort of complained about me having a million followers. I remember that. You were just like, sounds like me. You were just like, who are you? Why do you have a million followers? Who is this guy? And you were talking, like, I think, like, Bobby Lee or somebody else was there. There were a few other guys. And you were just like, this guy, he's got a million followers, but he's from Africa. What's your deal? It was this whole thing. And I remember I was just like, nice to meet you, Neil. Nice to meet. And I was. And I would meet you again. And I'd meet you again, and I'd meet you again. And every time I met you, I was like, man, this is a really, really nice person who has, like, the veneer of, like, anger. And, you know. But I always thought about you the same way. I think of, like, a loaf of sourdough bread, you know, if you don't know what's in it, you'll just be like, What a hard, crusty piece of shit. But when you know what's in it, you go, this is the most delicious, soft thing you will ever come across.

[A]

Little sa. Still a little sour.

[B]

No, it's not. That's a misconception. Depends. Depends on what starter you use.

[A]

Great.

[B]

You know, but. But I was like, yeah, man. I was like this, you know, this. This guy. Just like, you know, and over the years, I saw you, like, you were always open. You would evolve, you would, you know, slowly, over time. And the reason I say that I'm proud of you is because I've seen many people who don't evolve, many people who don't change, many people who then, sadly, you can't be friends with forever because at some point it's detrimental to your life, you know? And you know what that's like. It's like at some point in your healing journey, you're gonna have to let some people go. And what I always appreciated about you was I was like, oh, man, it was fun to be able to stay being friends with you because you were willing to let go of a lot of the cloud that followed you, you

[A]

know, I didn't want it.

[B]

Yeah, but still, you were willing to. I don't think anybody wants it.

[A]

Yeah, but I was willing to. I was willing to endure the gap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Between the stopping of one thing before the other thing begins.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like just jumping without knowing what was gonna happen.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm proud of you, man.

[A]

It's proud of you.

[B]

It's cool to see, you know, became like a friendlier guy, a happier guy. I think you became yourself, to be honest.

[A]

I totally agree.

[B]

Going back to the beginning of our conversation, you have become less afraid to open up your arms for a hug and get punched in the stomach. And I. I admire you for that. You've actually inspired me in many ways because of that. So thank you, I guess.

[A]

You're welcome for everybody. You're welcome.

[B]

Everybody wants to have it.

[A]

Wants to have it.

[B]

Friend.

[A]

All you have to do something.

[B]

Open up your hand, my man.