← Book More Photography Clients Podcast | Photography Business, Photography Leads, Marketing
Book More Photography Clients Podcast | Photography Business, Photography Leads, Marketing
A Candid Conversation About Boundaries, Burnout, and Niching Down with Vanessa Joy
00:31:50
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- [00:04]
Brooke Jefferson
Welcome to the Book More Clients Photography Podcast. You can stop spending hours on Google and YouTube because you just found your number one resource for growing a profitable and sustainable photography business. Hi, I'm Brooke Jefferson. I'm a believer wife, mama to two and Oklahoma family photographer. I left the classroom in 2018 to pursue my photography career full time. Now I'm here to help you do the same. In this podcast we're covering the most asked about topics including pricing, marketing, client experience, and all things systems and workflows. You won't find any fluff or BS here. Just tried and true strategy. Are you ready? Grab your kids some snacks and charge those camera batteries. It's time to jump in. Vanessa, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I'm excited for this conversation. We're so will you take just a couple minutes to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your photography business?
- [01:06]
Vanessa Joy
Absolutely. I am currently in Austin, Texas, although my other business is based in New Jersey, New York area and I photograph everything from weddings to headshots. Travel all around for photographing resorts and corporate. I do a lot of it and then my other half of my life is really teaching other people how to do that for themselves.
- [01:29]
Brooke Jefferson
That's awesome. Yes. I love when we have photographers on that are also educators and vice versa. I love when the educators are still very much photographers themselves. Yes. Still in the industry.
- [01:40]
Vanessa Joy
It's mandatory. It has to be. It drives me insane when I see people teaching how to run a business when they're not running a business themselves, you know, the one that they're teaching anyway. And you can understand business and practices, but it's very different from someone who's in the trenches, like really relevant to what you're doing every single day and how it feels every single day.
- [02:01]
Brooke Jefferson
I agree with that 100%. Okay, take us back and tell us, how did photography become a part of your life? Is it something that you grew up with as a child? Has it been in your family for generations or did you pick up a camera one day?
- [02:17]
Vanessa Joy
It has been in my family for generations. I'm one of those that like has the three year old picture of me with the camera around my neck. I didn't really love it though. My mom did weddings and she did portraits. So I did help her set up like the studio when she was having people come in and do portraits. Really inside the house was the studio, just to be clear. But I didn't love it until I learned black and white dark room photography in high school. And I mean just Fell in love with it. My teachers would fight because I would be skipping class after class just to stay in the dark room to finish whatever I was working on. And my high school photography teacher shot weddings on the weekends, so I work for him after I graduated and haven't looked back.
- [02:59]
Brooke Jefferson
What an insane story. That's really cool. And, yeah, I feel like we all fall into these different buckets. You have the photographers that their grandparents have been photographers, and then it just kind of passed down through the generations. You have photographers like me who were, you know, or moms, and we picked up a camera and we made a whole business out of it. And then you have, you know, other people fell into it in other ways. So that is really cool, though, when you got to grow up around it and then you fell in love with it completely for yourself. So that's amazing. And you told us a little bit about what you photograph. How did you really get into the business side? Was that launch through working for your high school photography teacher? How did you actually get your business going?
- [03:45]
Vanessa Joy
It's funny, I always say I like photography, but I love business. I've always liked business and marketing. I mean, maybe not more than photography, but it's another thing that I'm passionate about. It motivates me. I love seeing numbers. I love seeing progress and measuring growth. So when I became a photographer, I worked for someone else for five years, that high school photography teacher. Until a friend of mine asked me kind of innocently, why aren't you doing this for yourself? And I was like, wait, wait, what do you mean for my. I can't do this for myself? What does that even mean? Owning a business? How do I even start? But asking that little question led me down a rabbit hole, and I decided to start a business for myself. And thankfully in college, because I did go to college, I had an internship randomly because one of my professors was like an adjunct. And, you know, she had a job that she had but taught night class. And she asked me if I wanted to intern in a marketing department in a massive franchise or like, operation. I'm like, yeah, sure, I always was a workaholic, and I still kind of am. But I did that and fell in love with marketing. Learned a lot that I applied to the business of the man I was working for for so many years. But then when it came time to start my own, I just hit the ground running.
- [04:59]
Brooke Jefferson
Wow, that is incredible. Isn't it crazy how we go our whole lives or we grow up thinking we're going to go into this one Path and then something or someone. Usually a someone someone for me too. It they make you look at. It could actually be a career and you're thinking, wait, what? I could do this for myself. I could be my own business owner. I, I think that is so amazing that we have these moments and realizations. And I know this podcast like having conversations and interviews with people just like you. We are that person that helps that photographer realize, wait a second. This could be so much more. Yes, yes. I'm just like you though. I have always had a love for business and I really feel like business mind comes first before my creative mind. But I enjoy both much the same. So that's really cool. I've never heard anybody else say that, so I love that we're on the same wavelength there. So with you doing your full time business now, I also know you were out of the country. We originally were going to do this podcast. I love to bring some behind the scenes in too. We were originally going to do this podcast much earlier in the year. Can you tell us about your trip, where you were and what you were doing?
- [06:12]
Vanessa Joy
Well, which one? To be honest, because it's such a blur. I traveled 150 days last year. One of the last international trips, I think was to Africa, to Kenya. Was that the one?
- [06:24]
Brooke Jefferson
Yeah, that's the one. Yes. Yep.
- [06:26]
Vanessa Joy
So I was there and that was, that was a me trip. That was. I paid to go on this trip that another photographer was hosting and I wasn't planning on, you know, benefiting from it really monetarily in any way. But naturally as a business minded person does, they're like, wait, I just shot all these pictures. I could make a YouTube video out of this and then get a sponsor for the YouTube video. And you know, I did end up making money on the trip, but it was really meant for me. Like I'm going to feed my creative soul photograph wildlife, which I have never done before, and then, you know, go somewhere I've never been.
- [07:00]
Brooke Jefferson
That's amazing. Okay, so this, I know we weren't planning on talking about this, but this is so important. I think we will hit burnout if we continue to do the same thing the same way all the time. And we never take the time for us to even just do a creative shoot at home or do you know what I'm saying? And so I would love to hear your perspective on is this one of the ways that you have personally been able to stay in the game for as long as you have is by taking creative time for yourself, doing Creative shoots, continuing to learn. I'd love to hear your perspective on. On that.
- [07:37]
Vanessa Joy
I think the reason I've been in the game for so long is that I'm always pushing for the next big thing. I'm definitely an entrepreneur at heart, which is kind of a bad thing, because I have, like, the inability to be content. I celebrate my wins. I make sure I do that. But the second I win, I'm like, okay, what are we working on now? And that kind of drive has always kept me going. But I am very aware of burnout. It happens constantly. And I would say the longer you're in the game, the more frequently burnout happens. So when you first start out, it's like you won't hit a burnout till maybe three years in, and then it'll be another two or three, five years maybe from there. And then as you keep going, it's like, yeah, I get it, like, once a year now. So I. I just. I guess I've taken opportunities to do things where I didn't have to plan them. That's where my mental load is when I have to plan something, which is why I don't do a lot of workshops. You'll notice, if I have to plan it, that just. It takes up my whole brain. So I have gone to places where I just sit in the back seat. I'm not going to teach, I'm not going to plan. Nobody's going to ask me for my opinion on anything because they do not care about me whatsoever. So that's what this trip was to Africa. And then like two years before that, I went to Engage, which is a wedding photo conference. I'm sorry, not photo, just like luxury wedding conference. And I was just like little fly on the wall, just observing and going and being told what to do.
- [09:01]
Brooke Jefferson
I want to circle back to this burnout topic for a second. I love that you are just so transparent and honest. And you even said the longer you're in the game, the more you will hit burnout. And I've never really stepped back to think about this. But, yes, I'm at the point now where there's at least a good solid two weeks out of every year that I'm like, okay, I need a press pause. I need a vacation. I need something. How do you personally feel burnout in your own life? How do you know that that's what you're facing?
- [09:34]
Vanessa Joy
It for me, it's overpacking my schedule. I am so bad at doing that. I'll look at the calendar and be like, that. Day only has X number of meetings in it. Okay. I can add more things or I don't have anything that day. I could do a shoot, but I don't look at the day before, the week before. What does that whole month look like? And then before you know it, I have a jam packed schedule that's absolutely insane that no one really should have and work that hard.
- [10:02]
Brooke Jefferson
So you're finding that when you have a fully packed schedule, you are then going, there's no white space here. I feel like I can't slow down. And then it makes you. What kind of feelings come up for you and those moments of burnout, It's.
- [10:17]
Vanessa Joy
A little bit of fomo because I have a family, right. I've got my husband, my little dog, which you may or may not hear at some point, and my two kids, Felicity and Judah. And they're young, they're four and I'm sorry, no, they're older than that. They're seven and nine. They, they are growing up faster than I can even keep track of. And I miss that. I realize when my schedule is packed too much, I'm like, I miss my family, I like my home and I'd like to sit on my couch. But if I am too packed and even if it's like a mentally too packed, I'll be able to sit on my couch or be with my kids. But I'm not present, I'm not actually there. I'm thinking about something else, worrying about something else. So if I don't create that negative space purposefully, burnout comes a lot faster.
- [11:00]
Brooke Jefferson
Absolutely. I could agree to this. You and I are so similar in ways that I never even saw coming. I'm like, yeah, I can. Even our kids ages. I have an 11 year old and a 9 year old. So they're like right there, very close in age. Yeah. Okay, so I want to pivot a little bit to talk about your, your family and this idea of work life balance. Now, whether this photographer, because I have listeners in multiple stages of their journey, we have a great amount of that are at the very beginning, they're trying to figure it out. They're trying to get their name out there and make this something. We have photographers that are continuing to listen to this podcast that are a few years in and they have a good thing going. They probably struggle with burnout like we talked about. And then we have people who have been in it for decades and they're always looking to improve. So this idea of work life balance, how in the world. And really we can even pivot this conversation to really talking about those that are in their first five years really trying to get. Get this thing solid. And figured out how for you, have you been able to run a business and be a present? Mom? And I realized that we drop balls, and that's okay. And I love transparency. And I. I can absolutely tell you that I have gone through a season where my family was the back burner. And then. And then God was like, nope, nope, nope. That's not how we're doing this. So I'm curious to hear, how have you been able to balance both a profitable business and being present for your family?
- [12:28]
Vanessa Joy
You know that phrase, work, life, balance? I hate it so much because it insinuates that there can be balance. And I would challenge everybody and challenge that notion that there is no balance, because there at no point is it ever going to be 50, 50. And if you're doing really well at being present in your personal life, then you're probably suffering a little bit in your professional life and vice versa. Even with, like, my two businesses, you know, I have photography business that I am a photographer, and then I have the education business. And if I concentrate too much on one and give to one, then, you know, it's a pendulum. It's being taken from the other. So once you understand that there really is no perfect balance, that there are going to be seasons one way or another, I think that helps a lot. But one of the other things that I really liked, it's like, if it isn't a heck yes, then it's a heck no. Like, I'm not doing that unless it actually thrills me. And that's something I've started to do a lot more this year is just flat out say no.
- [13:33]
Brooke Jefferson
And that's a hard lesson to learn. Like, that was probably one of the hardest lessons because earlier you talked about how you're always, like, looking for the next thing and filling that calendar space. And I'm very much like that, too. Or I was. I'm much less like I used to be. But I think that's where a lot of photographers feel like, oh, I have to say yes to this, because it's a session and this is what I want to do and I'm making more money. And then we fall on the other end of that, that spectrum where now we've hit burnout. Like, we have overpacked our schedule. We don't even have time to fully edit these. We don't, you know, we're having to now turn down things that would have been a heck yes. And we're having to say no to them. That is such an amazing lesson to learn. What's the first step for somebody that's like I I, I want to do that? What would you tell them to begin to say no to things?
- [14:24]
Vanessa Joy
You know, it I, it's hard. I can't even think about which angle I would take about this because it just depends. A lot of times the truth is you can't say no. And it's not because you feel like making money or you, you know, kind of want to do something or fill your calendar. It's because you're the breadwinner like I am. I'm the breadwinner in the family. If I'm not working, like my kids aren't getting clothes they need potentially or roof over the head and I'm being wildly dramatic like a mother is. But that's what goes through my head. Like sometimes you do have to take those knows and you do have to pack your schedule.
- [14:58]
Brooke Jefferson
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- [16:12]
Vanessa Joy
But if you're in a place where you're like, okay, I could free up some time, how do I mentally do that? That first thing is like, okay, if I it's not something I'm super stoked about and I kind of like maybe saw that inquiry come in my phone and went like, okay, that's an indicator. I think we have a hard time as photographers understanding that we don't have to take every client that comes along because somewhere along the line I think think someone made it un perceived to be unethical to not take Clients. Like, if a wedding, for example, your wedding photographer and a wedding comes in and you are free on that date, you. It would be a lie to say you aren't free on that date. And then you're scared about, like, someone else inquiring for the date, but you like that one. And the truth is, you don't have to say why. You just say, I'm so sorry I'm unavailable. Unavailable doesn't mean that you're already booked. Unavailable just means that I am unavailable for this job and that's it. And you so figure out your way of doing that. But then the other thing is, you know, start to look at your calendar. Like, really look at it. And I did that this last week where I got invited to go do something over a weekend. And then I looked at my entire month. I'm like, wait a minute, I'm gone every other weekend that month. I don't want to be gone every single weekend in that month. So just looking at your bigger picture versus looking at the empty space in the calendar that you could possibly fill, that was helpful for me. I don't know if that's helpful for you.
- [17:40]
Brooke Jefferson
Yeah, no, that is extremely helpful. Great tips. They're very actionable things that people can do. And I love that you have to look at it for yourself when you're looking at it in the big picture. And you know what's important to you, right? You know where the balls are being dropped and where you want to pick them back up. And this can look like a lot of things for me. I noticed, like, I was even neglecting my own personal fitness, and I was feeling like crap. And if I don't feel good, I'm not going to show up and be a good photographer. A mom, a wife, none of it. So. So I love that when we just, like, take a look at our calendar and start there, it's a great place to start because we're able to see where are we saying yes to and where do we need to, like, create some more white space. So I love. I love those tips. Now, these are kind of examples of boundaries. You know, the. The saying no to things or. Or the how you want to say, are there other boundaries you have in your business that you live and breathe by or that you just find helpful or that you would recommend photographers implement?
- [18:37]
Vanessa Joy
I do try to take off the weekends because that's a big one for family when I'm home. My kids go to school during the week, so automatically, we really don't get a lot of time during the week. So the weekend is really where it comes. And I try to make sure that unless it's a wedding, because obviously those only happen on weekends, that I am here. I'm not going to schedule a phone call or a consultation unless it's like absolutely necessary. And if I do, then maybe it'll be in the morning so I get it out of the way. Sundays is just like, no, just don't, don't even schedule a darn thing. It is as open as it gets and you cannot book anything. But what I found that I did, which I'm curious if you do this too because you have a similar personality, is I would purposely keep those things open for business, but then I would fill them with per, like friends. Like, oh, let's invite everyone I know over on Sunday. I just kind of give myself more tasks. You know, it's funny, I was thinking myself, like if I was ever a stay at home mom, I would probably be one of the annoying ones that like did all the things to the nth degree because that's just how I do it. I just would do it that way. You know, painting cakes by hand or whatever.
- [19:48]
Brooke Jefferson
Yeah, yeah. I'm similar too. And that's where it's just hard. Like I, I naturally do not find being still easy. I think many human beings would agree that it is hard. Especially when we are in this fast paced society with screens constantly in our face and, and the notifications and all the things and so it's hard to picture ourselves like just be still. Like just take one day off. One day off where you don't even, you're not communicating with clients, you're not thinking about business, you're not doing anything business wise. And I will be honest, like I'm on year 11 and I still find myself falling back into old habits now. Brooke in 2025 versus Brooke in 2019. Completely different people. Like I, I had no white space in 2019 and now I, I know myself enough and maybe it's getting older. I bet you that's, that's part of it. Maybe we just want to have Saturday on the couch with our family. Like there's nothing wrong with that. So I, yeah, I was that way as well. And I think it just comes with discipline. Right. You just, you have to instill these boundaries and you have to practice it knowing that you're going to fail. Right. I think that's the key.
- [21:01]
Vanessa Joy
Yes.
- [21:01]
Brooke Jefferson
I'm a perfectionist or recovering or whatever you want to say. I really do struggle with that and I Just have to be okay, that things are not going to go perfectly and have grace for myself. And so, yeah, all that for the photographer that are listening to say, you're going to fail at this, you're going to be bad at first, but just try to implement some of these things for sure. Okay, so for you, again, back to work. Life balance. I love that you said that. There really is no balance. Right. And you kind of have to have your own definition or version of what success is. And I love asking this question because no one has ever answered this the same. And I know I'm really putting you on the spot here, but what is success to you? Like, all, all around? How would you describe success in your own life?
- [21:52]
Vanessa Joy
You know, financial freedom is one of them, one of the components of a successful life that I see. But it's not financial that I have to work for all the time, but it's also not completely passive because I get bored out of my mind. It's that perfect medium, like financial freedom that I am involved in working in. But I can also just, like, pick up and go to Italy for three months with my family if I want to, both financially as well as being able to clear my schedule and do that and have that time. Yeah, some. It's just that magic middle that I pretty much said doesn't exist. For the record.
- [22:27]
Brooke Jefferson
It sounds magical. It really does. And how. How would you measure your current reality? Do you think you're fully there? Is it something you're still working towards? What does that look like for you?
- [22:39]
Vanessa Joy
I'm making some big leaps and bounds this year. You know, a lot of photographers don't talk about, like, the financial planning aspect of it. So last year we decided to hire a tax strategist that helped us minimize our. Our tax bill at the end of the year, because that's always, you know, daunting, even if you do pay quarterly income taxes. But he helped us figure out how to invest money a little bit better so that it can work for us. So last year was we bought an investment house for the first time. We have an Airbnb in Florida and bought it and ran it in a way where it helps taxes now. But the plan is to, like, keep doing that, but at the same time also find things to do that don't require me to get on a plane or pick up a camera as much, because that's where the time is, especially if we're packing and unpacking. Have to get there the day before and then you leave to the day after and What I'm pushing into right now and not quitting any of the other things that I do because I'm big on relevancy. I started a mastermind and it was a big push for me to do that and I don't know why I was so intimidated by it. Like out of everybody I know that's in the industry, I definitely have the most experience across most genres of photography and have been successful like multi seven figure businesses successful. I know what I'm doing. But the idea of running a photography business mastermind was really daunting to me. But I have a coach myself and he pushed me and I did the first run of it eight weeks ago. Now it's a 16 week program and it's, it's going well. Like I'm getting ready to open the doors to everybody now. So learning how to scale that. But then that's allowing me to say no to other things because I'm being productive, making money, pushing myself and, and I don't have to get on a plane as much.
- [24:31]
Brooke Jefferson
Hopefully this year that is a big win. That's amazing. I'm glad that like even several years in a business, you know, here you are pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone, trying something new to get your end result of where you want to be, right? Let less of you, less hopping on a plane, less time away from your family. So I, I love that. I'm so excited for you. I hope your next round is amazing. Okay, one thing that has really caught my attention and we'll kind of start rounding it out with just some random questions here. But you say that you, you're kind of outside of a niche, right? Like in a way you do multiple things. And I know my listeners caught it because they know I'm like the nich. Like I really think it's important for photographers, especially in their beginning years when they're trying to get their name out to stay top of mind to have a niche. That doesn't mean they have, they have to be married to that forever. And it doesn't mean that they can't do other things while simultaneously marketing for one thing. How has that played a role in your business and how have you been able to manage photographing different types of events and photography?
- [25:39]
Vanessa Joy
Well, you already said it actually. It's not about if you're doing different things, it's about how you market it. And when I market, for example, my wedding website, my wedding photography website, you aren't going to be able to see corporate stuff on there or headshots or kids. Not that I photograph kids. I really hate actually photographing kids. But it's really important to niche when you're marketing yourself. But as long as you're marketing yourself separately for those things, it usually will be totally fine if you have other genres. That being said though, when you are first starting out, it is good to master one thing, but as you start mastering that one thing, the other genres that you could get involved in are actually only going to help you keep mastering that thing. Like the fact that I could photograph weddings, for example. Weddings taught me, you know, landscape and still life and portraiture and dealing with groups and architecture and all of that works really well when I go photograph for Hilton grand vacations and I have to photograph the landscape and I have to photograph, you know, still life elements and work with models and all of that comes together. But I still have totally separate websites for it. I send people different places. One thing I do that not everyone can do or should do is I do have one Instagram account and it does show everything.
- [27:05]
Brooke Jefferson
Yep.
- [27:05]
Vanessa Joy
Okay. If I only can do that because of where I am in my career. If I was just starting out, I could not do that. You know, I show wedding things on there, I show corporate, and then I also show things that photographers are going to like. So I have a very mixed audience on my Instagram page. I hope people find it funny at least, because I try to infuse some humor into there, at least for my fellow photographers. But if you are starting out, that's not a good thing to do. You want to separate all of it?
- [27:35]
Brooke Jefferson
Okay, that is amazing because that's like the million dollar question that we hear all the time. If I don't want a niche, but I want to do families and weddings and whatever else they might say, should I do separate Instagram accounts? And I always tell them, you know, yes, you can. Like, I'm never going to tell you no, you're your business owner. I mean, it's your choice, right? However, I'm with you, I think, in the beginning. And a lot of these people, I would still say, are early on in their career. Yes, they might do this full time. They're still very much in the beginning of their career where they're having to really put themselves out there to get the bookings to meet their financial goals, things like that. I recommend I really try to tell them if you can't handle one Instagram, you're not going to be able to handle, you know, two to three other accounts. And that's going to be the the hardest caveat there. So I love that you're like, okay, I'm doing this, but I don't recommend it for you. Do you think that it's just because you've always had one Instagram account? Like, did that one Instagram account originally start with one main thing that you did and you just kind of built on from there? Yeah.
- [28:41]
Vanessa Joy
Okay, it did. It just started on Weddings and Weddings and every once in a while a portrait here and there, but it was Weddings. I will say I'm trying to think, like, ever since Instagram's inception, probably until, you know, five, six years ago, is when I started pulling in some of the other elements.
- [28:58]
Brooke Jefferson
Yeah, I love that.
- [29:00]
Vanessa Joy
Yeah. But, you know, pinned posts are a thing. That's where it's helped me. Like, I have a pin post that's all about weddings and it's the carousel and you, you know, swipe through and then another one that's all about corporate, and then another one that's all about the photography education. So you can separate it without running too many Instagram accounts. Because that is horrible. That. Yeah, I tried to create a personal one for myself and I can't even, like, get myself logged into there. Do you have a personal one that's separate from your business?
- [29:29]
Brooke Jefferson
I tried. So last year I thought I was going to be done with my current Instagram account, and I went and started from zero, and I think it lasted about a month. And I was like, I can't do this. We're going back. Like, we're going back. So. Because I didn't mind memories and I've actually never had a personal Instagram account. Like, if my business account today, there were maybe seven personal posts back from 2013, 2012. Who knows something like that. And then immediately I just started posting about my business. So to me, I feel like I've always had a business account. My personal stuff is all on Facebook. So if people know me and they're in my. My warm circle or family, then they're catching up with stuff over there.
- [30:10]
Vanessa Joy
Yeah, that's a good plan. Get the personal in somewhere for sure.
- [30:15]
Brooke Jefferson
Okay. I'm fascinated with you. I'm sure we could talk 30 more minutes and pick your brain, but I know our listeners, however, fall off after 30 minutes. So we're going to go ahead and round it out. But I'm sure people are intrigued. They're going to want to see this Instagram account. They're going to want to see what you do or a website. Where would you like them to go from here?
- [30:34]
Vanessa Joy
Well, Instagram is great and you know, especially so your listeners, if they are more like starting out and especially if we're talking about work life balance. I have a little guide that has all of, I call them tech tools, like all the tech tools that I use for streamlining things like what AI, what, you know, software do I use for my home as well as here, you know, in business. So if you go to my instagramnessajoy V a N E S S a J O y just DM me the words either joy tools. That's the easier one. Do joy tools or tech tools. Either one. And I will automatically send you back that document that has like all the tips and tricks for making your work life balance a little bit more manageable.
- [31:18]
Brooke Jefferson
Amazing. Yes. Thank you so much. I'll be sure to grab that guide, go check out her work, see what she does, look at all of her different things that that she does as well. And I just thank you so much for your time and your insight into your business. It's always so fun having conversations and hearing how someone else runs their business. Got into photography, all the things.
- [31:40]
Vanessa Joy
Thanks for having me. Brooke.
- [31:43]
Brooke Jefferson
Sam.