← Book More Photography Clients Podcast | Photography Business, Photography Leads, Marketing
Book More Photography Clients Podcast | Photography Business, Photography Leads, Marketing
Overcoming the Discomfort of Marketing Your Photography Business with Nathan Chanski
00:31:29
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- [00:01]
A
You are very well connected to a lot of people already. And my question is to you. Do you think out of all of those people that you're well connected with, do you think that you could find like 20 to 30 people to say yes to you out of all of them?
- [00:20]
B
If you've ever asked yourself, how do I get in front of more people so that I can get more of my ideal clients to book me, you are in for a treat. Today I am bringing Nathan Chansky on the podcast and this conversation left me so fired up. I know it's going to inspire you and you're going to be ready to turn off the podcast, Go, run and take action. Nathan Chansky is a wedding photographer, business coach and course creator based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He runs a full time wedding photography business, an education and coaching platform for photographers, and is the host of the Passion With Purpose podcast, a podcast for photographers and creatives. While he lives and breathes for the entrepreneurial journey, his primary passion is always centered around glorifying God through everything he does, building a life with his wife Kayla, and inspiring individuals to create the life and career of their full potential. Y'all get ready because here comes Nathan. Welcome to the Book More Clients Photography podcast. You can stop spending hours on Google and YouTube because you just found your number one resource for growing a profitable and sustainable photography business. Hi, I'm Brooke Jefferson. I'm a believer, wife, mama to two and Oklahoma family photographer. I left the classroom in 2018 to pursue my photography career full time. Now I'm here to help you do the same. In this podcast we're covering the most asked about topics including pricing, marketing, client experience and all things systems and workflows. You won't find any fluff or BS here. Just tried and true strategy. Are you ready? Grab your kids some snacks and charge those camera batteries. It's time to jump in. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I was telling you right before recording that one of the reasons I wanted to reach out and ask you to come on the podcast was because I saw that everyone was sharing their end of the year. Here's my top five podcasts. I listened to and I saw our faces together a lot and I thought how fun would it be just to come on the same show. So thank you so much for being here. For those that don't know you or have never heard of you before, can you introduce yourself to the listeners?
- [02:53]
A
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me, Brooke. I really appreciate it and I love that we have some overlap in our audience. And that's really fun that you. You've seen a lot of people that are listening to the same shows like mine and yours. It's really, really cool. So if there's anybody that's like a crossover from my audience. Hey, guys. And if there's anybody who's new, my name is Nathan Chansky. Very nice to be here. I am a photographer and I'm also a photography educator, but I like to call myself a business coach for photographers. My biggest thing, my biggest goal is I love to teach people who love their art and they love their passion and they love their craft and all those. Right. Brain things. I love to teach them how to do business with it, how to make money out of it, how to create financial freedom in their life from that thing that they love to do. Do. I used to be the person who only knew how to do the art. I only knew how to take the pretty photos. And I always blamed any issues I had in not achieving my goals on that artistic side, because I was like, well, it must be that my work isn't good enough. It must be that the things that I'm producing for people or the experience that I'm giving people is not good enough. But that really wasn't the case. A lot of it had to do with the fact that I didn't know business. I didn't know an understanding of money. I didn't know an understanding of just like a mindset around business and around growth. And I ultimately did not know how to market myself as a photographer and how to get people aware of what I had to offer. So that's a big part of my story, which really fuels my passion for what I do as a business coach. So, yeah, that's a little bit about me and how I got into it.
- [04:39]
B
I love that we have so much in common. We are both obsessed with the business side now. Right. Teaching people what we didn't know. Very curious and hearing photographers journeys. How in the world did you get into photography?
- [04:54]
A
That's a great question. Yeah. So I am 30 now and back when I was 16, I think about 15. 16. That was when I first started. And I was. Back then, I mean, like, this was. Oh, I don't know what the year was, but it was probably like early 2010s or like, that's math, but like something like that.
- [05:15]
B
The same age.
- [05:16]
A
Yeah. And so basically it was kind of like, you know, I just found cameras around, like, mainly it was like our family camera or something like that, and I would just pick it up and start taking pictures. And I really took a lot of pictures of like, you know, people in my life and my family and, and all that, and started editing them with like Picnic, the app of the 2010s where we made the cringiest compositions of all of our photos from like our canon power shots. And I just started doing that a lot and I got into it and then that developed obviously over time and started working with like DSLRs. I kind of put all that on the back burner while I went to college. Because back then I was young, naive. I never thought entrepreneurship was an opportunity I could actually pursue. I never thought photography by any means could make me money to survive. And so I bought into the narrative that you had to go to college to make anything of yourself. So I went to college for four years, got the four year degree, got the student debt. And then after I was done with that, I was like, okay, I would really like to get back into entrepreneurship and into photography. This is what I want to do in the first place. And I saw people, especially during that time, like especially with the social media revolution a little bit, you saw people blowing up as digital entrepreneurs for the first time. And I was like, I could do that. I could put my work out there and I could get clients and I could figure it out somehow. So at that point in my life, I got a 9 to 5 job working as a graphic designer. And I did that because I was like, hey, I can do this on the side. It's a low stakes job, low pressure job. And then when I go home at night and on the weekends, I can work on my photography and I can do that passion on the side. So I did that for a while. It worked out pretty well. And then by the time I was like making more than I was making at my 9 to 5 job, I was like, okay, but I cut the cord, I'm going to go in. So then I went into photography full time and some bumps along the way for sure. No doubt. It was not like, oh, it was all history. But that is how I became a full time photographer and I'm really glad I did.
- [07:26]
B
Sounds like you've been creative your whole life or just since your teens. What would you say?
- [07:32]
A
Oh, I've been a creator my whole life. Yeah, like very, very, very creatively minded, artistic, like just I feel like I was always a natural, like feeler and emotional and all those types of things. I've developed the other side of my brain, which is like the thinking and the rational and the business side and like the more like, quote unquote masculine side, but that other stuff that's like me at my core. So it's an interesting balance of both that I think helps me a lot these days.
- [08:06]
B
I love that. Okay. The reason I love to go back and listen to people's journeys is one we can get in your head a little bit more. We can understand your journey as photographer. And it also just reminds everybody that is starting that we all started, that we all had a day one. We all had the bumps in the road that you said as well. I'm going to go off topic really quickly, and then we're going to bring it back to business. But I'm curious. You and I both share Christian values and our faith is really important to us. And I think you and I, we just, we have no shame and we're very bold and saying that. When you look back at your life and your journey, where do you see God putting all the pieces together for you? Like, getting to this moment? How do you see certain things in.
- [08:48]
A
My business specifically or just in my life as a whole?
- [08:51]
B
Maybe a little bit of both. We can lean a little into business, but, you know, the. The roller coaster we all go on to get back to photography and entrepreneurship.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think everything's for a purpose and even like something like me going to college, I could in. In some senses look at that as well. What a waste and a waste of money, a waste of time, a waste of energy. But I do think that the Lord has a purpose in everything that he has us going through. And whether or not it was in the first place a good thing or not, he, like his word, says he means it for good for us, and he can turn it for good. And so I really believe that. And I. I think that everything contributes to the person that I am today. I would even venture to say that my biggest weaknesses and my biggest hardships that I've went through, both personally but also in business especially, have really made me the person that I am today. And I think they. They've become my biggest strengths, I don't think I would, you know, be in any sort of position of leadership or education or coaching or even on this podcast. If I hadn't gone through some really significant struggles in my business life, in my career life, in just like my path of finding my career. I mean, my early 20s especially were very tumultuous, as many are. And I think going through that, I'm able to communicate with people who. And empathize with people who haven't had everything just click on day one. And, like, you're 20 and you're a millionaire. You know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't have that. Like, it took me so long to get to where I am today. And I think in so many ways, that's the beauty of trusting the Lord's plan. Because you look back on it all and you're like, you had my back and you knew all the pieces that were at play. I always tell the Lord, I'm like, you know, stuff that I don't even know that worked out for my good, and you were watching over things that I never knew were even being watched over or needed to be watched over. And so I think that's what is so beautiful about all of that. And that's why I can, in the future, even trust him for the future and be like, whether good or bad, in my perspective, I know that it is going to work out for good when I'm looking through his perspective and even eternally minded. And so that. That's peace, you know, that's a way in which we can process our surroundings and our environments and the things that are happening in our life with a sense of peace. Because it's not up to us. It's all about what he's doing. And he's got it. He's got his hand in the steering wheel. And to me, that helps me sleep at night. So it's beautiful.
- [11:35]
B
That's so good. That is so good. I think the same thing. When I look back, it can look messy in my perspective. But then when I look at, oh, wow, I see how it all pieced together. I did the college thing. I got the degree still. I mean, almost done paying off that student debt that I don't use anymore. But in a way, I do. We do use it because we teach photographers every single day. And so it's just really cool, the journeys that he takes us on. And it's that piece that I lean into, and I want other photographers to lean into to where even if you're in a season of your business where you don't have it all figured out or it's really, really hard to know that he's in it and he's brought you here for a reason, and he's going to work it out. So I couldn't keep going. We couldn't dive into business without going to where our piece comes from.
- [12:24]
A
So I agree. I love that.
- [12:26]
B
Yes. All right. So my listeners, I would say the majority of my listeners are in a place where they know they're called to photography. They have this burning desire to either do this full time or to make it really profitable while they're doing something else. And their biggest pain point is, how do I get in front of new people? How do I gain more bookings than I am getting right now? What, some tips and tricks? Maybe not even tricks. I really don't like that word, but it makes sense, you know what I'm saying? So what are some of the advice that you have for the season that they're currently in?
- [13:04]
A
Sure, absolutely. So it totally depends on someone's specific goal. So I think if you're in a position, because you could be in a place where you're like, hey, I just need to get in front of anybody, right? And maybe that's a. That's kind of someone who's at the beginning of their career and they're like, I. I don't even know my ideal client yet, but know I want to get in front of more people because I have nobody in my inbox, right? So that may be one bucket of people. And then there's another bucket of people where they are in front of people. But maybe, and this is a lot of, like, this, the students I help, it's like I'm in front of people and I'm getting inquiries, but I've changed my prices, I've changed my work, I've changed my, my packaging, I've changed my brand as a whole. And so I'm trying to get in front of a new type of audience altogether and almost leave behind an old type of audience that I served a couple years ago. And so I think in both cases, it does come down to you have to start doing things that you're not doing currently. And you have to get into a headspace of what I have done so far. If I've done it for a particular amount of time and it hasn't worked, it's not going to change anything anymore. Like, I'm not going to take this old plan and get new results. I need a new plan. You know what I'm saying? So that's kind of like the mindset I do want people understanding is you've got to reckon with the fact that what you've been doing, it's not working. We got to do something else. And with that comes a level of discomfort as well, because marketing isn't always comfortable for a lot of us. Maybe if you're very extroverted and you just naturally connect with people, well, that's going to come more Naturally for you. But I think a lot of artists, especially even people who would consider them extra extroverts as well, they aren't people who, you know, marketing to people they've never met, it doesn't sound like the funnest thing in the world. You know what I'm saying? It sounds like you show up to a party of people you've never met before and you have to make a big speech like that's what marketing feels like a lot of the time. But I think there's so many different ways in which you can still connect with people in a way that feels organic to you and in a way that feels not as intimidating but is still effective. So the first place I always recommend people go is I always recommend people go to the audience that they already have. Because you may be looking at it and you may be like, well, I am not connected with anybody and I don't have anybody that whatever is, is coming to my inbox. And so I don't have anybody. But here's the thing we have to remember as photographers especially, our products are booked at such a high rate. We're talking three zeros behind them, we're talking for some people, four zeros behind the product that we're selling. And so for many of us, like your six figure multi, six figure year, it only looks like maybe serving 20 to 30 people per year. Like 20 to 30 yeses a year is really all you maybe need. Many of you listening, you probably have, I don't even know, like thousands of followers simply on your social media account. Okay. You probably have tons of people in your personal community network, like people you know physically, whether from your family, your extended family, your group social clubs, your churches. You're like, I don't know if you're connected with any schools, anything of that nature, that you're already connected with quite a few people. You're also in situations where you've started working with people at different events. And so then you have professional connections as well. You also have all the clients that you've worked with in the past as well, not only the clients that you've worked with, but all the family of the clients, their friends, people that see you at the weddings that you're shooting or at the whatever it is that you're shooting. Right. And if they're not seeing you at those venues, they're seeing the work that you do, like when it's passed down through the group chats and all of that. And so you have to remember you are very well connected. To a lot of people already. And my question is to you. Do you think out of all of those people that you're well connected with, do you think that you could find like 20 to 30 people to say yes to you out of all of them every year? You know what I'm saying? Like, we're not talking like, you need to find 100 people, a thousand people, a lot of it. Like, it's not that many folks. I think a lot of what happens, though, is we get overwhelmed by how many people were connected with so that we don't try to push anything. We don't tell anybody that we're a photographer. We don't stop and talk to anybody at the coffee shop as if maybe they would be a good connection for us. We don't post anything on social media because we're worried that some random person from high school is going to think some random thing about the thing that we're posting. Right. Like, there's so many reasons why we don't put ourselves out there because we think about so many numbers at once. But if you bring it down to earth and you're like, okay, I got 20 people that are going to fill my books in this next year and you can, like, put little names on them, like imaginary names on them, and you're like, okay, how can I connect with Jack and Jill today? That's it. That's all I need to connect with. If I can just get Jack and Jill in my inbox today, that's all I need to do. And so obviously this is much more like an abstract level, but it definitely breaks down for me anyway. And I think for a lot of people, what to do on a given day and how to impact, like, a specific type of person instead of just, I have to connect with everybody in every best way possible for every single different person. You know what I'm saying by that? I don't know if this is making any sense.
- [19:11]
B
Ah, no, you're spot on. You are nailing it. I'm thinking. Yes. Okay. A lot of photographers, I think immediately when we say marketing, they go, oh, I have to go post on social media. And I. I think we got to get out of that box. It's not just social media, so I love that you brought it back down to the basics and it's, hey, who do you know? I also have noticed that photographers will almost think it's a bad thing that their friends and family and co workers are their first clients. But I'm like, that's perfect. Because they all know Someone else, so. Exactly. Yeah. Utilize who you know. So I love that you. I love that you're bringing that up. And it does sound so simple. And I can hear the objections now from someone listening. Okay, all right, fine. I can make a list of 20 people that I could reach out to today, but what do I do with that? Right? So what is your. What is your advice for that? What's their next step?
- [20:10]
A
Well, so, okay, let me go back. There's those people in your immediate network, right? And I'm not saying specifically that you have to book everybody in your immediate network. What I'm saying is I believe that a lot of people think my clients are way out there somewhere. When I think for a lot of you, they're actually closer than you really think. And so my question to you is, how can you put your brand on display more regularly in places where you. You thought there was never an opportunity? Like I said, if you're in a position where, like I tell my students a lot of times, I'm like, if you go work at a coffee shop regularly, please introduce yourself to people. Like, meet people at your coffee shop. Tell them about the work you're so passionate about doing. You don't need to be salesy and be like, oh, yeah, if you need a photographer, like, please hire me. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just like, open yourself up to other people and let your community know that you do what you do, and you love to do what you do. Maybe you could even ask them what they do and be like, hey, I could. I have a card from you? Could I connect with you on social media? Could we follow each other? You know what I'm saying? Immediately you're expanding your network a little bit, right? Or if you're in a position where you're. Let's say you got an Instagram account and your Instagram, you're posting stuff to your Instagram account. And a lot of the. The things that you're posting, your Instagram account are only for people in the people that you're people that are following in Instagram. What if you also took that same content and you posted it, reposted it on your personal Facebook page? Like, I used to do that all the time. And what ended up happening is a lot of my just community from my personal life started understanding Nathan Chansky as, oh, he does photography and he's really dang good at it, right? And then, like, I would have random, you know, mom friends of friends recommending me at the hair salon, you know, What I'm saying, because like they saw something on Facebook that, that I was posting that work, but again, it was from my personal, it was from my personal network. So it's just little random things like that that I think you can do in order to utilize the community that you already have, especially the people that do know you in person, to expand that effectiveness of that community. Now I will say on the second hand of kind of what I was saying at the beginning of, sometimes there are certain people who you have worked in a certain group of people in a niche for a while, but you really want to extend beyond that group of people and you want to get in with new communities. And so in those types of cases, to me, what I always think about is I always say, okay, where are those communities? Who are they connected with? What associations do they have? And like, where are they hanging out? You know what I'm saying? Let me give you an example. Like in association, a couple would have that, like, let's say I want to shoot their wedding and it's the specific type of couple, but I wouldn't personally be connected with them. They don't follow me on Instagram or anything like that. We're not connected in any way. What if I was in a position where I could get connected with the venue that they would book before they booked me? Or what if I was in a position where I got connected with the planner that they would book before they booked me? And so just by being associated with someone that they would associate with, we're now all in the same community, even though we didn't used to be, you know what I'm saying by that? And let's say, you know, that there's a friend of yours. Like it's, let's say it's a couple and maybe they're married. And you're like, I know these people are already married, but I know that that couple has a couple different friends in their community that I would love to shoot their wedding or something like that. Now I'm talking weddings. I don't know if you're good audience says weddings much. Yeah, that's just my world a lot. And so you might be like, you know what? I'm gonna see if that couple, and even though they're married would love to do a styled shoot with me. Because if I go and knock it out of the park with them and I make them part of my network and I. We start following each other on Instagram, we start becoming friends, maybe we do like a cross collaboration post on Our Instagram. Maybe they share my work. Maybe I knock it out of the park so good that they, like, can't help but talk about the experience with me, with their friends. Now I'm associated with their friends too, just by that little connection. You know what I'm saying? So I think it's all about trying to find different ways in which if you're not connected to a certain party of people, how can you sneak your way into those communities of people by, again, like, these associations, these new connection points, just figuring out what locations, what platforms these people hang out on. And that's how you can filter yourself into a place that maybe you never had any access to before.
- [25:22]
B
I love that you just. Yes. Everything that you said. I love the examples. I love how detailed you were with those as well. And really, I feel like you unraveled this yarn ball of a mess of what marketing is, and we really just stripped it back down to the basics. So if you are in this season and you are hanging on every word that Nathan is saying, because I'm like, yes, this is so good. I say some of this stuff too. I want you to find one thing that he said, and I want you to go do it. I want you to not be afraid to. To reach out. One thing you said way back in the beginning, and I've hung on to it since then, was the discomfort, Right. This idea of being uncomfortable. And I think that this is where the majority of people, the minute they feel uncomfortable, they want to run for the hills.
- [26:12]
A
Totally.
- [26:12]
B
Right? How can we get more comfortable with this feeling? How can we approach it better?
- [26:17]
A
I think it's different for everybody. So I don't know for everybody if I could give them a way to do it, because everybody has their different triggers and motivations. But this is how I think about it. And this, again, I don't know if this is gonna speak to everybody, but the way I think about it is the more discomfort I have leading up to a thing that I know I need to do. Like, if I feel that resistance, like, if I'm like, okay, I need to go and show up in person to connect with that new venue owner that I want to be associated with so that I can get with the couples that they're associated with. And I feel that resistance of, like, I don't want to drive over there. I don't want to go shake their hand. I don't. What if that. Like, what if there's rejection? What if. I don't know? The minute I feel that discomfort, I'm like, okay, so this tells me that this is going to be something that actually has impact, because that is the way that marketing works. The lowest impact versions of marketing, you guys are going to be the ones where you feel barely any discomfort. Like, for instance, if you just whip out your phone, you grab a couple of photos from your. Your portfolio, you write a quick caption, and you click post. Understandably, some of us are still uncomfortable by even that. But I love you guys enough to say, that's not that uncomfortable. That's very easy. That's probably the easiest form of marketing that has ever been around since the dawn of time. That's so easy. You can do it from your home in your pajamas. And so for that reason, everybody does it. And then for also that reason, it's very competitive. That's why if you just post on Instagram as a form of marketing only, you'll find that that's a very uphill battle to get clients like that. It's such a competitive way to get clients. But the more you find yourself stepping out into these areas of discomfort, and you're like, oh, this one's hard, this one's not. This one's got a learning curve. This one has a high likelihood of rejection, you know what happens then? If you actually do it, you are in a category of one, because no one else is going to do it. And so the effectiveness of you actually being the one who does do it, you're going to have no one competing with you. You're going to be the only one doing, like, no one's going to be out there in that lane where you're over there driving because it's too uncomfortable for everybody else. So that's the way I find it. Inspiring. Because I'm like, oh, this is really freaking hard. Which means, oh, yeah, look over my shoulder. No one else is here. So if I just do it, I'm going to see massive results because no one else is around me doing it as well. So that's the way I look at it. But to each their own. You kind of have to get your own. Like, why? Of doing something uncomfortable and still going forward with it.
- [29:06]
B
I'm very similar to you. You feel the resistance. You lean into it rather than running away from it. And I think that's the difference between those who are successful and those who are not. You have to lean into it because like you said, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Like what you're doing right now, if you're not seeing the results that you want, that's a Sign that you have to do something different. And I don't know about all listeners, but I know, you know, I'm fired up. Like, that really lights a fire under me. I want to turn the podcast off at this point and run and go do something, which I hope is how people are feeling right about now. So I just. I love that so much. And again, like, that's just it. I don't want you guys to stay stuck. I don't want you to. To fear the rejection. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. But you just.
- [29:55]
A
Okay, happens to me all the time.
- [29:57]
B
Yes, me too. We do hear no's. But you know what? We also hear the yeses because we keep going and we keep asking and we keep putting ourselves out there. So if anything, I hope your transformation from this episode is just to get out there, do something different. Do something that makes you feel uncomfortable.
- [30:15]
A
Love, so.
- [30:16]
B
Okay, Nathan, tell us. I know you have a podcast. I know you have a YouTube channel. Just tell us a little bit about some of that and where people can go get more information and not to consume, but to take action.
- [30:30]
A
Oh, I love that. I am the biggest apologist for, like, don't just listen. Please go out and do. But, yeah, I. I always tell people, come hang out with me on my podcast. It's called Passion with Purpose. We talk about a lot of these topics, and I talk about a lot of the same things on my YouTube channel. YouTube, obviously, is more of, like, visual connection with me a little shorter videos, but. But, yeah, I'm over there. We're hanging out. It's a great old time, so come on over and stop by if you ever want to hear more.
- [31:01]
B
Yes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. This was gold fire. I knew it would be. So thank you. I'm honored to have you. And we'll have to circle back and have you on again in the future.
- [31:13]
A
Oh, thank you. I appreciate you having me here, Brooke. It's been an absolute honor.