Count My Lies by Sophie Stava

Summary

Books With Your Besties – Episode Summary

Episode: Count My Lies by Sophie Stava
Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Date: August 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Emily and Ashley dive into Count My Lies by Sophie Stava—a thriller centered on deception, shifting perspectives, and dark psychology within domestic life. Amid their signature banter and tangents, they unpack the book's unexpected twists, the complexities of its characters, and its links to real-world justice. The discussion blends humor, personal anecdotes, and thoughtful analysis, making the episode as much about friendship as it is about fiction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Tangents and Tone Setting

• (00:24–08:29)
  The episode opens with friendly chatter, life updates (notably Emily’s immovable backyard bar and party planning), and relatable stories—establishing the show’s candid, humorous tone.
  • Memorable digression includes planning a Game of Thrones–themed party (even though neither has watched the show).
  • They reflect on friendships, marriage, and the quirks of adult life through witty stories.

Initial Reactions to Count My Lies

• (08:40–09:51)
  • Emily admits almost abandoning the book due to the “egregious lying” in the opening chapters.

    “I sort of had this moment where I was just like, I’m gonna hate this book. I don’t think lying is cute or funny… but then the book absolutely turned.” — Emily (08:40)

  • Ashley agrees—the early lies felt “so non important,” raising concerns about following a compulsive liar.
  • Both encourage listeners to push past the first chapters, as the story develops depth and intrigue.

Structural Surprises: Multiple Points of View

• (09:51–11:20)
  • Ashley and Emily praise the reveal of new narrative perspectives deep into the novel, a twist they did not anticipate but loved.

    “I absolutely love every book that does that, where a new voice comes in way into the book that you didn’t anticipate.” — Emily (10:21)

  • The switch from a seemingly typical “Single White Female” narrative to a multi-perspective thriller keeps both engaged.

Plot Mechanisms and Comparisons

• (11:20–13:07)
  • Ashley draws parallels to Gone Girl, especially the dynamic between Violet and Dani and using trustworthy friends to cover up crimes.

    “I was like, this is giving me Gone Girl…” — Ashley (11:32)

  • Emily loves the “planting of seeds” about secondary characters like Dani, leading to satisfying plot twists.

Character Analysis and Themes of Morality

• (13:07–17:22)
  • Violet is “just bad,” not a victim-turned-hero—yet Ashley and Emily still find her likable.
  • They scrutinize Jay, Violet’s husband, and his gradual unveiling as a “jerk” and emotionally abusive partner.

    “I didn’t find her unlikable... her husband was a total jerk.” — Emily (13:11)

  • Both discuss whether Violet’s schemes truly had her daughter Harper’s best interests at heart.

True Crime Links—Plea Deals and the Legal System

• (19:49–31:50)
  • The conversation pivots to the criminal justice system, inspired by Jay being pressured to take a plea despite questionable guilt.

    “How many people are there in jail for crimes they didn’t commit because of that exact advice?” — Ashley (19:49)

  • Emily offers a detailed, richly informative explainer on how plea bargains, DA discretion, and systemic bias impact real-world defendants—especially minorities and the under-resourced.

    “Plea deals disproportionately negatively impact people of color and people of low socioeconomic status... That’s what we talk about by systemic racism.” — Emily (20:33)

  • Discussion references Amanda Knox’s case to highlight false confessions and the importance of system knowledge.

Forensic and Plot Quibbles

• (34:43–36:21)
  • Emily and Ashley note suspensions of disbelief required by the book’s far-fetched plot points:
    • The feasibility of faking a death and rapid cremation.
    • The lack of forensic details about gunshot residue.

    “They didn’t forensically test the gun or their hands... there’s all this evidence, but we just are going to like, pretend there’s no CSI evidence.” — Emily (35:21)

Reflections on Lying and Trust

• (33:16–34:14)
  • The besties reflect on how habitual lying undermines relationships in both fiction and real life, emphasizing trust as foundational.

    “That’s why you don’t lie. That’s why we have to...stop that. Because it becomes problematic later.” — Emily (33:16)

Emotional Undercurrents and Final Thoughts

• (36:37–38:14)
  • Both sympathize with Sloan/Caitlyn—her desire for sisterhood gone awry, which added emotional heft to the story.
  • They rate the book highly (4.3–4.75 stars) and appreciate its divergence from standard domestic thrillers.

Upcoming Adaptation Buzz

• (13:18, 37:38–38:14)
  • The hosts get excited about the Hulu miniseries adaptation starring Lindsay Lohan and Shailene Woodley.

    “I’m so excited for this. I’m so excited. Okay, well, thanks for listening, besties.” — Emily (38:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Shifting Perspectives:

  “I absolutely love every book that does that, where a new voice comes in way into the book that you didn’t anticipate.”
  — Emily (10:21)

• On Plea Bargaining’s Real-World Impact:

  “Plea deals disproportionately negatively impact people of color and people of low socioeconomic status…”
  — Emily (20:33)

• On Habitual Lying:

  “That’s why we want to, like, stop that. Because it becomes problematic later.”
  — Emily (33:16)

• On Relatable Adult Humor:

  “This is the forty-five-year-old version of it. Come help us do house projects and we will give you alcohol and food.”
  — Ashley (04:22)

• On the Book Adaptation:

  “Do we have a release date?...We don’t know yet.”
  — Emily (37:43–38:02)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 08:40–09:51 — Initial reactions and almost DNF-ing the book
• 09:51–11:20 — Surprise appearance of extra narrators
• 13:07–17:22 — Character analysis: Is Violet “bad” or likable? Jay’s flaws
• 19:49–31:50 — Deep dive: justice system, plea deals, real-life connections
• 34:43–36:21 — Forensic and plot holes in the story
• 36:37–38:14 — Final book ratings and empathy for the characters
• 37:38–38:05 — Anticipation for the Hulu miniseries

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Final Ratings

• Emily: 4.5/5 (with a playful “4.3, 4.7, 5 stars” comment)
• Ashley: 4.75/5

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Conclusion

Emily and Ashley deliver an insightful, spirited breakdown of Count My Lies, blending personal anecdotes with sharp literary discussion. The episode’s highlights include their analysis of unreliable narration, the consequences of lying, and eye-opening commentary on criminal justice. Their dynamic remains as entertaining as their insights are valuable, especially for thriller fans or anyone interested in true crime and human behavior.

For further discussion and bonus content, find them on Patreon at The Creepy Book Club.

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Transcript

[Ashley]

Hi, friends. Your reminder. We currently have tickets on sale for our retreat February 19th through the 22nd. Head to our website for more info.

[Emily]

Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is books with your besties.

[Ashley]

Hi. We are here to talk about Sophie Stava's Count My Lies.

[Emily]

Hello, besties.

[Ashley]

Hi. And I. I already told you, right, that we get to talk with her.

[Emily]

So excited about that.

[Ashley]

I know, but I'm so eager to talk with her. But do you know why we can't right now? Because she's living our dream life. She's traveling in Europe right now with her family.

[Emily]

Oh, poor thing.

[Ashley]

I know, I know. So we have to wait and interview her when she's back from what looks to be an incredibly fun trip.

[Emily]

Well, I'm excited to talk about this book, and of course, as you all know, full spoilers. So if you have not read it, go read it, Read it first, and then come back. And before we start, I do think that it's important that I provide an update on a very important topic that if you listen to our religion episode, you know about, and that is natural gas. And so I'd really like to let you know that we have not yet moved the bar that is covering the natural gas meter. And so it's. It's. It's got concrete countertops. Each of these two concrete countertops are like 200 pounds, plus. The actual bar itself is wood, but it's heavy. It's. It's big. And so it's probably another, I don't know, a hundred pounds or something. And it's bulky and awkward. But he did not affix it to the deck so that it can be moved. So I was talking with my sister, and I was like, I've had multiple people that we've run into, parents. We're all back from summer. Everybody's been gone everywhere. We've hardly seen each other. And I've run into various parents, and they're like, we have to get together. And so I was talking to my sister, and I was like, hey, maybe we'll have a party we like to host at our house. Obviously, that's why my husband built a bar in the backyard. And so we were like. I was like, well, we'll. We'll have a get together, but I kind of want a theme. Like, I want to do something. And my sister was like, a theme. And I was like, I just mean I want activities. Like, the kids can go play in the park. But, like, one time I had this really cute boutique that now no longer exists. Come to my house and set up and so women could shop while they were hanging out and having appetizers and drinks. And so I was like, I kind of want to do something like that. But when I said I want a theme, my sister was like, how about Game of Thrones? And we both just laughed so hard. I was like, that's perfect. Everyone can wear their favorite medieval outfit. By the way, neither one of us have ever watched Game of Thrones. I don't think you have, Ashley.

[Ashley]

I tried. I tried so hard because I just wanted on that bandwagon and I couldn't make it happen.

[Emily]

I know, it's just not my cup of tea, but also, I just thought it was a hilarious idea, especially coming from her. It's going to be 94 degrees, but please wear your armor. Your suit of armor that you have hanging in the closet. Most of us have something like that lying around. It just reminds me of spirit days at school. I always hate those because they're like, dress like your favorite book character. I'm like, what kind of outfits do you think I have around here? Like, oh, let's just pull out the Hermione outfit I have from Harry Potter that fits my child this year. It. Each year anyway, there I'm on a billion tangents. But while I was at the park with some other parents, I came up with the theme of the party. We're going to full circle here. The theme is move the bar. So the men are all going to move the bar and any strong women that want to contribute. I was like, calling all crossfitters. So Friday we're going to have a move the bar party.

[Ashley]

What people don't know is that Ben and I are going to see you before then. And I kind of thought this was going to be pivot to. You're going to ask us to help you move the bar. And I was going to be like, I'm not equipped. I'm not. I refuse to do that.

[Emily]

Are you kidding me? You. That concrete slab could crush you if it fell on you. You're like 90 pounds soaking wet. You can't help.

[Ashley]

We could watch our husbands, our big strongly husbands do it.

[Emily]

I know partly it was because one of our friends is like a big, tall man, and he had been doing all this like re landscaping of his yard. And so he's been carrying these huge, heavy concrete things to make, like, retaining walls. And he's like, yeah, so I'm really strong. And I was like, I have a great idea. And he was like, oh yes, I got this. The men that were there at the park where I was were like, yeah, we, we've totally, we can figure this out.

[Ashley]

This feels like the equivalent of when we were all finishing college and getting our first apartments and you would pay people with pizza and beer to help you move. You're like, this is the 45 year old version of it. Come help us do house projects and we will give you alcohol and food.

[Emily]

100% what it is. 100%. Except for now. It's like a nice charcuterie board and maybe a sangria that we make. You know, it's just the 45 year old version of it that for some.

[Ashley]

Reason that made me think of this. And then we can talk about the book. But you know, my husband and I went on an impromptu date on Sunday. Like we just had a few hours free. There's a really cute winery by us. So we went to the winery and this was at probably three in the afternoon or something. And two, two things. I haven't told you this one story, maybe I have, but it will make you laugh. And we were laughing so hard we were crying. And I know that's one of your favorite things about Steve. And you know, Ben and I have just been in like a tricky. We've been together for 25 years swap. So getting, laughing that hard again, you're like, oh yeah, I love you and I love this. But the first part was we're at the winery and Ben looks around and he goes, don't these people have to work? And I was like, on a Sunday? And he's like, no, tomorrow, Monday. And I was like, well people are allowed to go have wine at 3pm they'll be fine by tomorrow morning.

[Emily]

Oh yes. What is he talking about?

[Ashley]

I guess he thought we were going to maybe just like go out. I'm like, we're here for one, maybe two glasses of wine and then we're going to go home. And that's when I looked at him and I was like, don't you have to work? And he had committed the marriage sin of not telling me that he's not working this week. So he's just home. So that was mistake number one.

[Emily]

I love it that he has a staycation that you had no idea was happening, right?

[Ashley]

So yesterday I was like, I'm out, I'm going to be gone all day. And then the second thing, you know, my mom, we have always considered having my mom live with us, especially after we lost my dad. Like we considered having my parents live with Us. Because I just think multigenerational living and taking care of your elders is beautiful and matters in big ways. And my kids are so close with her. But, you know, my mom is quite literally when I say this, you guys, she's 4 foot 10, maybe 4, 9, and she's the tiniest human you have ever seen. And Ben was like, okay, well, if she gets dementia, you know, we would have to consider bringing in help or whatever. I promise this is going to get funny. And this is when we started laughing so hard. And he goes, what if she gets the type of dementia where you get violent? Have you seen commercials for that? That's like, is your loved one violent with Alzheimer's?

[Emily]

Yes. My grandmother, like, punched the nurses when she had Alzheimer's.

[Ashley]

And then I just love when I can make Ben laugh so hard. I mean, the tears coming out of his eyes. I go, it's okay. She's so little. I go, we'll just strap her in her car seat. And then, you know, like a five. A five point harness, toddler seat. Oh. I was like, we'll just put her in her car seat, lock her up, and until she can stop being violent, she just has to stay there. He's like, we'll just drive her around until she falls asleep like a baby.

[Emily]

She's probably shrinking too. She probably can fit in one of those car seats.

[Ashley]

God, we got to laughing so hard just picturing her in her car seat.

[Emily]

I love those moments. I. I know. I'm glad you guys are coming and that Steve and I are getting a little date night with you guys to get some laughs.

[Ashley]

Have some laughs. It'll be fun. Ben has been preparing. He's been listening to Ben Harper every day in his car.

[Emily]

Well, it was funny because my sister's like, I don't really like Ben Harper that much. I was like, no, me neither. Also, I. The Burn One down is like an iconic song that I think of constantly, and I just think of Ben, and I think I do like Ben Harper then or in college. I did well, and I think I.

[Ashley]

Just put them all. People are gonna. People who like music and really listen to it are gonna just burn me down for saying this. But I just. They kind of are all the same to me. I'm like, Ben Harper, Dave Matthews, like all those bands we listened to in the 90s in college. I'm like, I can have fun and have a beer and listen to them outside.

[Emily]

Absolutely. And that's the fun thing about Brit is, is it's just such a nice outdoor Venue. It'll be beautiful. It's a gorgeous place to sit. They sell beer and wine and good food and we can just chill. And it's not until 7:30pm so go have dinner first.

[Ashley]

It's gonna be so late. I'm gonna have to take a nap. Okay. Can you tell our best friends who are listening about how you almost did not read this book?

[Emily]

Yes. Okay. Count my lies. So I listened to this book. So I read it with my ears and I started it. And it starts out, as you all know who have listened to that or read this with just her lying, lying, lying to this. These people at the park saying she's a nurse and then lying about her name. And then it's just like lie after lie and then she's talking about all the lying she's done. And I sort of had this moment where I was just like, I'm gonna hate this book. I don't think lying is cute or funny. I mean, I think you have to lie to be kind sometimes. And I understand that, like, lying's a part of life, but like just egregious lying and like purposeless lying, like that is so toxic that I was like, I'm gonna hate. I already hate this person. And I don't wanna read a book about someone who just lies incessantly. And so I got worried that's what it was gonna be. And I texted you and I was like, I don't like this. I don't want to read about this lying thing. And then the book absolutely turned. That was literally just the setup. And even though, yeah, there were other lies and there were other pieces of it throughout the book, it was. That was not the focus. And so I thought it was actually really excellent. I loved it. After I got past those first couple chapters.

[Ashley]

Well, in the introduction, I think you're right. The lies she was telling felt so non important. Like, why are you lying about this? That seems like a really easy thing to check up on. And you're like, is this gonna just be about a compulsive liar? And that's not an interesting story. Not an interesting story. One of my favorite things about the book was when she brought in the second voice. Does that make sense? Like when all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, this story is going to be told in a different person's perspective now. Did you expect that?

[Emily]

I don't. It's funny because I didn't expect it. This is my thing. This is why I love to go in blind to books. Because I Don't want the spoiler of knowing anything about it. I can say confidently, I absolutely love every book that does that, where a new voice comes in way into the book that you didn't anticipate. Love them. Love, love, love.

[Ashley]

I love the multiple points of view when you think so, you know, you're. We're hearing the story from Sloan, Caitlin perspective, and I really thought it was going one direction. I'm like, okay, this is going to be Single White Female. And I just don't think I'm interested in that story. Like, I feel like we've read so many versions of it. But then you start to hear Violet's side of the story and the husband's side of the story, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, we actually have no idea what's happening here.

[Emily]

Yes. What's really funny is that, you know, it's similar in that in some ways to some other books, but it's not the same story. And I still didn't see it coming. Even having read multiple other books where that kind of thing happens and is unveiled. And I just enjoy it every time. I just love the ride.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm going to imply a spoiler. So if you haven't read Gone Girl and come back in maybe one minute because you've read Gone Girl a number of times, right? I haven't seen the movie.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Ashley]

So in the book, she. When it comes out that Violet had had Danny as her college friend, and turns out Danny was gay, so there was no love interest there, and then she brings him back to help her with this murder, I was like, this is giving me Gone Girl because she does that in the movie.

[Emily]

Sort of.

[Ashley]

Yeah, yeah. Like, sort of for the book.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like an ex boyfriend.

[Ashley]

Yes. Like, she's someone you trust that you have this loving friendship with to help you in this nefarious crime.

[Emily]

Yes, yes, yes. I. I loved that she planted the seed about Dani and talked about Dani multiple times that he came up, and then total plot twist. He was just, like, helping her and a friend. And I. I just. I loved that part of it, too. Like, his role in it. I will say one thing that surprised me about this book in general. Like, overall, which I would give this book four and a half stars. I mean, I would say five, but I just am trying not to give five stars all the time to everything. But I really loved it, so. 4.3. 4.7. 5 stars. I really liked that, though. There was this whole, like, plot that was underlying that Violet had to like, kill her husband or frame her husband for murder. Violet was bad. Like, there wasn't. This wasn't one of those. There's often these twists where it's like, the person who is doing the plotting is a victim and, like, trying to save themselves. She was just bad.

[Ashley]

Yeah, she was. But I didn't find her unlikable.

[Emily]

Me neither. And also, her husband was a total jerk. So I get. I mean, he was obviously, like, kind of emotionally abusive, if nothing else.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I am excited, you know, this is gonna be on Hulu, and Lindsay Lohan is in it. And I think Shailene Woodley, who I really like, I love both of those actresses. And I'm really excited to see the final scene because it blew me away when he's sitting in the jail and. And he expects one person to walk in. And the. And I was like, she's alive. Like, what are you talking about?

[Emily]

Yes. There was some suspension of belief that had to happen there at the end that she was able. That Dani would be willing to, like, hide her body and sign off at the morgue, and then she was cremated without any checks and balances. All of that part, I had to be like, that's okay.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I did, too. And I. I had to not look stuff up about, like, the legality of some of these things.

[Emily]

I'm like.

[Ashley]

I'm Just believe it if this feels right.

[Emily]

It's very much illegal to fake your own death, and it's also very much illegal, like, everything Danny did. And, I mean, there's a whole lot of people going to jail in this story. We'll say that.

[Ashley]

What did you think was happening? Because you and I haven't talked about this book since you finished it. What did you think was happening when she was still a nail tech and the other person walked in and you could tell that they knew each other. I had no idea what was happening.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah. No clue.

[Ashley]

No. And then how mortified you would be at your place of business to have someone confront you like that. Like, I do not do well in those situations.

[Emily]

No. Horrible. But she. She made her bed, right? Like, she. I mean, what she did was embarrassing. I'm such a people pleaser and would be so embarrassed by the fact that someone, like, dyed their hair to look like me and, like, was trying to become me and trying on my clothes. I don't think I would tell anybody. I mean, I would tell you. I would tell my friends, but I don't think I would be like, I'm getting a restraining order. You know, like, the theatrics.

[Ashley]

And sometimes when you show up. Emily Rose reader in the same outfit from Stitch Fix, it just happens on accident.

[Emily]

You know my neighbor Sandra, who I'm hanging out with tonight? She and I have the same romper. We bought it from the same. That little boutique I was talking about, and we've been trying to hunt it down for our neighbor Kristen so that we can all wear the same romper together.

[Ashley]

Well, remember, you and I showed up with the same. Mine was blue, yours was, like, maroon. And we just were like, stitch Fix. Okay.

[Emily]

Yeah. Ellen and I do that all the time. My sister and I.

[Ashley]

Okay. What else about the book?

[Emily]

Well, I guess, you know, Jay was. I just want to get a grasp on. Because they really unveiled how he was bad. Really slowly. They. Like, she hinted at it so much with Violet. Like, if I even have to look at him or he wants to touch me and I'd rather eat a rock or whatever. I don't know. She said. I guess I'm just wanting to recap. He cheated all the time. Okay. And loved attention from other women. And he was degrading to her.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yeah. So it seemed like he just was ski. Like, skeezy and icky and gross and, like, obviously a womanizer and an adulterer, but there wasn't any. I mean, that, like, that's enough for someone to want to get out of a relationship. Maybe not murder someone, but not to be with that person. But there was nothing. There were no violent tendencies there, right? Nothing.

[Emily]

No, I don't think so, but I think there was. Maybe there was some implied or maybe it was explicitly discussed and I don't remember. Like, emotional, kind of. He was controlling of her weight and appearance, or maybe that was just something she cared about. But I think there was some pressure there from him.

[Ashley]

Definitely. Some gaslighting, manipulation. That kind of stuff, for sure, I'm trying to find.

[Emily]

But also just like, how can you. I, I. I don't know. How can you think what's best is to put him in prison for life for something he didn't do? How can you think that's best for your daughter?

[Ashley]

I was just gonna say that. Great minds. I just thought how. But maybe that's a part of who Violet is. Right? Like, I didn't find her unlikable, but also with being kind of a bad person. I don't know if she was putting Harper first. Right.

[Emily]

No, I do think she was just kind of a bad person.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

And they were all just three, like, not great people.

[Ashley]

And for all of his being, like, a crappy man. It seemed like he was a good. We're talking about fictional characters, but he seemed like a good dad.

[Emily]

Yeah. I mean, he seemed like an attentive dad to her, probably. I mean, maybe she was concerned about things. The way that he treated women like that there would be something negative for. Who knows? We can extrapolate all we want. I still liked the story a lot. I didn't dislike the characters. That was something surprising to me. And I sort of liked in the ending, these two women living together. You know, what it reminded me of is the show snapped.

[Ashley]

I love that show.

[Emily]

Just thinking about women who are like, I have had it. And they're like, I'm gonna get a girlfriend and we're gonna go kill my husband.

[Ashley]

Yes. I mean, it's. Don't you feel like it is? Maybe I'm going to say this and people are going to be like, no. It feels like the most common running joke between women. That's like, if you just text me, shovel, I'll be at your house. Because that just means, like, well, I've had it.

[Emily]

I know men. Earmuffs, earmuffs. But I swear, I know this is the problem is that it's because it just doesn't happen so often. I hope that men don't make the same jokes because they really do kill their wives a lot.

[Ashley]

I think that's why it's not funny. I think men don't because it's a real thing. I think women do because unless they are in, like, a situation where they're literally saving their own lives, they don't really just kill their husbands.

[Emily]

I know. It's just not as common.

[Ashley]

Circling back. I do remember in the book Violet talking about the weight thing and saying, like, I don't want that, because Harper was wearing something or getting ready, and he made a comment, and Violet was like, I don't want that for her. Do you remember something like that?

[Emily]

Yeah, vaguely.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah. There's some. Why? What's wrong with my brain? I feel like. Here's the thing is I am absolutely flying through audiobooks right now. I'm finally home from vacations, and so I have all this time where I am doing laundry and trying to, like, clean up my house. The other day, I just got sick of my sunroom, and I just. I just took everything out. I even took the rug and the chairs in the backyard and was like. Like, trying to spray everything off. I just decided everything needed to be renovated at home. So I've just had an Audiobook in my ear all the time.

[Ashley]

I have someone coming to give us a quote because I've decided I hate my carpet, and I need hardw floors everywhere.

[Emily]

Dude, I don't blame you. I feel the same way about everything in my house. Like, I'm like, I can't wait to renovate all the things again. But also, it's just also expensive.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we can't afford to do it, but maybe. I don't know. So one more thing about the book that happened at the end that really just had me thinking about how much this does happen, basically was Jay's attorney being like, you have to take the plea deal. Like, there's too much evidence against you to take this to trial. You'll be found guilty. You have to take the plea to save yourself. And we've talked about this a number of times, but just how many people are there in jail for crimes they didn't commit because of that exact advice?

[Emily]

Totally.

[Ashley]

Like, this is the lesser of two evils. So just take it. I'm so scared of our justice system. I don't. I'm terrified of it.

[Emily]

Well, I'll tell you, too, that plea deals disproportionately negatively impact people of color and people of low socioeconomic status because they are people without as much institutional knowledge, essentially, like system knowledge. And the systems are kind of set up in ways. This is what we talk about by systemic racism, right? Is that these people are concerned about the ability for them to have a trial and that's fair and to get a fair shake. And they don't have resources or money to pay for the top defense attorney. They're not getting O.J. simpson's lawyer, you know, on retainer. And they are offered a plea deal and basically compelled to say that they did something, even if they didn't, or if they could, you know, be excused by a jury, essentially. And so it's just. It's. It's a kind of a terrible system. The thing we talk about with the legal system that I think is the most. One of the most important facets that I think people are just sort of unaware of is prosecutorial discretion. The district attorney, the prosecutor on the case. It's a district attorney out of the district attorney's office. So they have lots of. Lots of district attorneys. There's, like, an elected DA and then there's lots of various levels of DAs that are all prosecuting attorneys. Every crime comes through their office. They decide what to file and not file. They decide what to offer and not Offer. They ultimately decide if a case, if someone is going to go in front of a judge or not. So they can look at a case and be like, well, that's clearly self defense. I don't think we'll file. And of course they have influences of the family of the victim. They have influence of the family of the, the perpetrator. They have influence of the community and what is the community going to want or going to think? And they have influence of what the evidence is that they have or don't have. And they have, they can have their own personal ideas or biases, but it's an, it's an important thing to think about. So, yeah, telling him he's going to have to take a plea. I mean, two, we know that like defense attorneys work with various DAs and judges and they know how those people rule. Judges also have discretion, but the DA decides what charges are even being filed up to that point. And to the DA is the one who puts the charges on the table.

[Ashley]

Do you know if DA's have. You might not know the answer to this, but do you know if they have like a quota of cases they have to meet? So they might make a decision based on, like this, like, I need this. Does that make sense?

[Emily]

I don't know that I suspect that they do not.

[Ashley]

I would hope not. That would seem.

[Emily]

I mean, they're bound by ethics. Right, of course. And so I'm not saying that they are intentionally doing anything unethical, but we are talking about human beings utilizing discretion. And under any circumstance. I mean, the police have discretion. Discretion in the legal system is such a big deal. The police pull you over. I mean, people listening right now have probably been pulled over and just given a warning and not a ticket. And other people have been given a ticket and some of us have been given a ticket and added on some additional ridiculous crime like evading police officers for not pulling over fast enough. You know, I mean, it's like it's entirely to their discretion what they do there. The thing is, if the charges are filed beyond like a officer citation, that's where it goes before the district Attorney.

[Ashley]

This is going to take a hard pivot, but it's going to circle back to this. I texted you this morning. I was listening to Amanda Knox on our expert with Dax Shepard, and she said she actually gets a lot of mail. I don't know if that's like direct messages, mail, whatever, but that a lot of people were very much like, nobody falsely confesses. Nobody would confess to a crime. They didn't Commit. And she's like, until I did. And she's like, then because I'm a white woman with an education, with resources, a lot of people said, well, I guess if it happens to her, it could certainly happen to anybody. And she brought up exactly what you were talking about. She's like, I'm someone that had all the resources in the world. I was not, you know, a black single mother or a black who didn't have access to the resources I have. But she's like, I'm glad that my case brought attention to the fact that this happened.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley]

So that it's a really good app. I'm only an hour and a half in and I've learned, you know, you feel like you kind of know what happens because of how it was portrayed in the media. But it's kind of crazy to hear from, directly from her mouth about the whole thing.

[Emily]

It's so interesting. We just love to think that we would never be in these positions, but the reality is we could get into a position where suddenly we are accused of a crime and we are told, here's the thing is, you're going to go before a judge and it's going to be a three year sentence and it's going to be a he said, she said, and you're not going to win that. People are never look favorably upon that. And so you can, you know, you can take the risk or you could take this plea deal and spend six months in jail and you're done.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

And I mean, who, who's not going to feel coerced by that? We talked about on this podcast in relation to a case. I, I mean, in relation to a book, Wendy Maldonado. I don't remember what book it was, but anyway, remember the case of Wendy Maldonado. It just is, is so unethical to me. It was 15 years ago, and she spent 10 years in prison for killing her husband, who was extraordinarily abusive, and her son spent five years in prison for killing him. They did it together. They used a hammer and an ax to bludgeon him to death while he was sleeping. But this man. There's a documentary called Every Effing Day of My Life through HBO that you can watch. And it is clear it's one of the most horrific cases of abuse of all time, like this man inflicted on these people until they finally killed him. And they pled guilty to manslaughter charges and went to prison. And she pledged. They pled. The DA tied their plea deals, which is so Unethical. It's coercion. He presented it as, you both have to take the deal or neither of you get the deal. Where one of them maybe could have, should have taken the deal and the other one should have gone before a jury. And a jury probably would have said, it's all good and nullified.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

Even the judge in the case when he was sentencing her, because the judge is bound by now she's pled guilty. This is the charges he has to sentence her to, what the law says. And the law says 10 years. And that's what he has to do. Right. He says in the documentary, you hear him say, I am bound by the law. And maybe a jury would have decided that you wouldn't have had any consequence, but I am bound to give you this sentence.

[Ashley]

And judges can, like. Judges can make decisions about sentencing too, right? Where he's like, you could. I can. I can impose the maximum amount on this or I can impose the minimum amount.

[Emily]

Yes, but there's always parameters within the law. So that's one of the differences with judicial discretion. Like lesser cases. Yes. They can decide whatever they want. They can be like restorative justice. We're going to do community service types of stuff or we're going to do some specific outcome. But there are some crimes that. No matter. Hold on, let me. Okay. There is something. In Oregon, for example, measure 11, crimes are. It went into effect in 1995. It was reaffirmed in 2000, and it essentially has mandatory minimum sentences for specific crimes. So judges are bound by those. You cannot. The. The D. A then says, okay, well, we're going to put forward murder in the first degree versus Manslaughter. Right. These are very different sentence types of crimes. The D. A decides what of that goes forward or what the plea deal is to. And then the judge imposes. Imposes a sentence based on that conviction. So the vast majority of crimes go to plea. The vast majority of crimes plea out. Like, most. Most crimes don't go to trial. We see these, like, fantastic crimes that go to trial. But even looking at Brian Coburger, he. He pled, he put out. Most of the time, they don't go forward. So crimes that fall under Measure 11, arson, assault, robbery, attempted murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, murder, rape. I mean, these are horrible. There's. There's some other sexual abuse, and there are various levels of the crimes, but based on, like, what. So typically with a plea deal, they'll be like, okay, you're gonna go to prison like Bryan Coburger, and It's murder one, and this is a capital crime. Right. And so you could get the death penalty. The reason Brian Coburger pled guilty is because they said he knew the writing was on the wall. There's so much evidence. Right. He's gonna go to trial, they're gonna convict him, and guess what? He's gonna get the death penalty. So. So they said, okay, we're just going to take the death penalty off the table. Now, your plea deal is an agreement between you and the court that you, when you're sentenced, you can't be sentenced to death. So he pled guilty so that he wouldn't be. He got life in prison instead and.

[Ashley]

Wrote a bunch of stuff into his plea. Right. Because it goes back and forth between the defense and the da, depending on what goes into it, essentially. It's like the da, the prosecutor.

[Emily]

Yeah, it becomes. It becomes a whole. Yeah. Which is the. Which is, you know, the DA's office.

[Ashley]

It.

[Emily]

It becomes a whole. Yeah. It's a whole agreement between. Between every. All the parties in the court. So everyone agrees. Typically, victims have a say. Families like, they. They consult with them because that's who the district attorney feels beholden to. Right. Is they are protecting. They're prosecuting criminals who have perpetrated crimes against others. And so they communicate a lot of. With victims, families. These are all. Everyone who's involved in the legal process is doing the job to their best of their ability. Of course, there's always exceptions in every field. Right. But these are. These are people who are truly doing incredible work that I. I could not be involved with. Like, as much as I study psychology and law stuff and teach the class, I also clench my jaw at night just after listening to a true crime case. Right. Like, I cannot imagine seeing the things that these people see. And some of my friends who have been district attorneys or judges have told stories. I have heard stories from them, and they are horrifying. They're things that I'm like, I just don't know how you were able to do that. And, you know, they have to go to autopsies, they have to go to crime scenes. They see somebody who's had their head blown off, I mean, literally, and they carry that trauma. I mean, there's a. There was someone who was a DA here for a long time, and now a judge who runs a lot to, like, manage his stress levels. But he told a story to my class one time about seeing a child's brain on the car seat next to his body after a drunk driving incident. And so he considers drunk driving a violent crime. And he has. No, he doesn't, he doesn't care if you were drunk driving. There's, there's no sympathy there. So I just, I think, you know, they're doing amazing things. They have to go through horrific traumas to do what they do. And I'm super grateful for them. And the point is not to point at them and say like they're doing it wrong. The point is our system, any legal system, our system is flawed.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yes. Well, you know, I have a friend here who works in the legal system and she worked in basically child sex trafficking for a long time. And they put a limit on how long you can work in it because of the emotional toll it takes on your life, your personal life, your mental health, all of it. That I, I want to say I'll look this up and make sure. But I want to say maybe it was five years at the most and then you have to be moved to a different unit. Even if you love the work and you're still engaged in it, you cannot stay past that.

[Emily]

Yeah, that makes sense. I just, anyway, so mad respect to everyone in the legal system who's doing that work. I just, I just can't, couldn't bring myself to do that kind of thing. But I think it's really commendable. But of course, my job as a psychologist in psychon law is to talk about the fallibility of the system. And two, the more informed we are about that, the better we'll acquire equipped we are to navigate it and help others navigate it.

[Ashley]

Yeah, absolutely. That feels like the biggest piece is just if you can educate others on it, you feel a little bit more armed if you ever have to deal with something inside of the system.

[Emily]

So probably we're going to have some attorneys in our comments, like you misrepresented everything that happens in the legal system. Well, I'm sorry, okay. I'm an academic anyway, that part of the book, yes, I thought was very realistic in that way that it's just like, well, bro, even if you didn't do it, too bad. I think you did. And two people lie so much. So it's like the people who are telling the truth. How are you supposed to know? I think that was probably kind of a cool little piece of the end of this book. It's all about liars. They're all just big giant liars. And then at the end he's trying to tell the truth and they're like, we think you're lying. You should Plead guilty and that it's.

[Ashley]

Harder to believe someone when they're inherently a bad person. I know, like, you have this track record of not only lying, but being, like, a shitty human. So at this point, like, no, we're not gonna believe that now you've turned it around, and you're just a good guy.

[Emily]

Right? That's why. That's why you don't lie. That's why we have to. You know, we talk about kids, our kids being like. I think you mentioned, you know, sometimes children are like storytellers. That's why we want to, like, stop that. Because it becomes problematic later. Because here's the thing is, then someone lies to you, and it takes a long time to believe almost anything they say. Right. Takes a long time to recover and be like, but did that actually happen? But did they actually say that? Right. It's like this question and so you don't want to be the person on that end. Yeah, it's something I. I definitely need to, like, work on with my kids. And I just think is an important thing, that honesty is generally the best policy. And I feel like I live a life where I don't tell a lot of, like, major lies. I think I'm still interesting. I don't have to tell a fake story. Like, I can tell real stories.

[Ashley]

I can't even keep up with my, like, real life enough to tell a lie. And then remember what I said. I'd be like, what? I didn't say that.

[Emily]

Listen, I have gripping things happening in my life, like this massive, important natural gas. Avista Utilities. Move the bar situation. Can. I mean, what kind of incredible life is that?

[Ashley]

What kind of a situation? You're the criminal here. This is who. That's the end of this podcast. This is where it comes full circle. You are a criminal of the natural gas industry in your city.

[Emily]

Come and get me, everybody. No, don't. I'm just kidding. We're moving the bar. Really? As soon as possible. We just have to get some strong people. Okay, I'm just gonna say one more thing about the book that this made me think about, even though I. Sorry, I went on such a long tangent there. I can't stop with this book. The. The piece about that I didn't like from a forensic perspective. You know, we were suspending belief in that. Like, Danny just, like, had the corridor, the drunk quarter sign off, and then they, like, cremated the body in, like, days, you know, two days later, all of that. Did not like that. They didn't talk about the gun powder Residue.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yes.

[Emily]

Like, who fired the gun? The woman. Violet fired the gun.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

He never touched the gun. But they didn't. They didn't forensically test the gun or their hands. That, to me, was the one part that I was like, there's all this evidence, but we just are going to, like, pretend there's no CSI evidence, There's no crime scene investigation that happened.

[Ashley]

And the part, to me, just because of lived experience, unfortunately, was how fast the cremation took place. I was like, it took over a week. Like, there's so much paperwork involved in cremation. There is so much that happens. You can't just burn a body overnight and be, like, gone gonzo.

[Emily]

No. And actually, most crematoriums have a day, a specific day of the week where they fire up the oven.

[Ashley]

Yes, they do. We. Yes, they have a day. They have. It's like, down. Down to the minute. It is a. It is a science and an art.

[Emily]

Yeah. And so they know that. Like, I know that part, too, but that's okay.

[Ashley]

Yeah. You can leave.

[Emily]

I still liked the book.

[Ashley]

I would highly recommend it. I would say 4.75 stars also. Especially starting off thinking that I felt like it was going to be like every other single white female story, and then it was not.

[Emily]

Yeah, I did like the single white female part of it. I liked the way she wrote Sloan's perspective on becoming the single white female. Like, well, I just like her hair so much. Maybe I'll do that too. And, like, maybe I'll cut it. Well, now she's going to think that's weird. Like, I loved the innocence of the way she was thinking about it. And I. I almost could have had more of that.

[Ashley]

Well, and I found sad. Here we were going to say, we're done. One more thing, and then we are. I did feel sad for Sloan slash Caitlyn because of her. Like, she really just wanted, like, a sisterhood and a friend and a. Just like a companionship with someone. She just really went about it the wrong way. Like when she showed up with the dark hair and the whatnot. And Violet reacted in a way that seemed so approving, and she was so happy about it. I thought, oh, no, you're going about this all the wrong way.

[Emily]

I know, I know.

[Ashley]

So hopefully I don't show up wearing the same outfit as you on Thursday.

[Emily]

I think it seems unlikely. Now, I am going to watch this show as soon as it comes out. Is it a show or movie?

[Ashley]

I think it's going to be a miniseries on Hulu.

[Emily]

Love it.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Emily]

Do we have a release date?

[Ashley]

I'm looking. Don't you love that? It's Lindsay Lohan and Shailene Woodley So much. Okay. It says. Well, I'll just come back and we'll just put it. We'll link it. We'll link it. Because it's not saying right now. The release date.

[Emily]

We don't know yet.

[Ashley]

Let's see. Count My Lies, Lindsay Lohan, Shailene Woodley.

[Emily]

Oh, it says. It hasn't. It hasn't been announced yet.

[Ashley]

Okay. A limited series, though, so I love that. I love a good, like, six to eight episode series. But I do want to know who's playing Jay. It doesn't say that there. It doesn't say.

[Emily]

Oh, I'm so excited for this. I'm so excited. Okay, well, thanks for listening, besties. Sorry about all of the random rambling. Next time I'll try to stay more on topic. Probably not.

[Ashley]

Yeah, and we can't. We will get a plea deal for saying anything that was wrong.

[Emily]

Yeah, we. It wasn't me. This was all a joke. Just for legal purposes.

[Ashley]

Thanks for listening.

[Emily]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the creepy Book Club.

[Ashley]

Happy reading.