B (2:28)

Completely agree. It was that he's a quantum physicist who was able to actually unlock going into other dimensions, which I believe there's probably some weird time parallel thing. I mean, quantum physics is fascinating stuff. So I just love that it's a play on, like this is a real field of study. There are real things that have been identified with quantum physics on time jumping or weird things like that, but we, we don't utilize them as humans. But what if we could?

A (2:56)

When you finished it, you really quickly were like, you have to read this book to me. You were like, you absolutely have to read it. Tell me what made you be like, you have to read this book? Was it just the way you felt after reading it? Just tell me about that.

B (3:11)

Well, I'm going to be completely honest. A lot of it was about this podcast. And that's because I do think that lots of psychological thrillers that we read, while very fun, are sort of flat in their themes or flat in, like the discussion. I'm like, so I liked it. Did you like it? Did you like this character? I like that character. And so it's really fun for me to think about a discussion that we can have post books just because we do that either way. And it could be something really fruitful and have really interesting things to think about. And I think it's super topical for us right now. Both of us. Well, maybe not right now for literally everybody. Because you're all going through things in your life, right? We're all going through things. And this book is so much about the choices that we make regret, thinking about other ways we could have lived. And I just was like, we will have such a good conversation about this.

A (4:03)

Did it make you feel like maybe in. How do I want to say this? Like, in my day to day life, I can really be like this just. I don't know, like, it just feels like this day to day grind. But then when I really pause and look at the bigger picture, I'm like, after reading this book, I'm like, oh my gosh. Actually, I kind of have everything I was hoping to have right now and more. And it's just kind of that getting your head out of the sand to look around and be like, wait a second, this is exactly what I was hoping for. Does that make sense?

B (4:36)

Absolutely. Well, I think, you know, we both probably follow the theme of the original Jason in The book, Right. So we meet Jason and his family, Niela and his son, and he has this nice life as a professor and he's happy and in love in a companionate way. And I think you and I followed that path too. And when I look at my life, even though, yeah, the day to day grind is quote, unquote, boring sometimes or monotonous, I'm like, this is what I dreamed of. I dreamed of having a partner and two children. And we're healthy and we have everything that we need and more because we. I can sit around and watch Love is Blind and I have that luxury of time and like, I'm so, so, so rich in that way. Right. And I want for so little. Of course, there are moments in the parenting grind that I'm like, well, what if. What if Steve and I had just decided to travel the world instead in an rv, driven right across the Atlantic? We could have. I mean, maybe not the driving part, but we just. I just think about those things because it's fun to think about what else you could be doing or what else life might look like. But I would never wish any change in my life that resulted in something different than where right now.

A (5:58)

Yeah, in the end of the book, he kind of used the word regret. And I just thought, I don't reflect on where I am today and have any regret over any decisions I made as to how I got to where I am. And that word felt kind of heavy because I'm sure there are people who do. I did think I could look back and wonder, if I had made these other decisions, how would my life have looked different? But there's nothing that I regret, even the really hard stuff that has gotten me to where I am today. And it made me think of all these lives you and I have both lived. I thought about all of the jobs you had gearing up to be a professor, how you made different decisions about your career and where you were going to live, and how these singular decisions have this massive impact on the trajectory of our lives.

B (6:44)

Yep, exactly. In the book, there was Jason, too, who had reached all of his success dreams in terms of work and career. And I wonder how much that's true for a lot of people. And I think I've reached my goals with career I've never had. My life has never been driven by career. Like, that's not true. I'm like, well, I have a PhD and I work a lot and now we have this book club and we're working every second of the day to, like, do Something. But my dream isn't unfulfilled in career. It's that these are really cool pathways to continuing growth and serving in different capacities in a work perspective. I don't know. That's just not something that I'm like, if only I had been a researcher at Harvard. That's just not. That was never something I'm interested in. Do you have anything that you would think was along that vein?

A (7:40)

No, I think when I think about you, you know, I was a teacher for a long time. That's definitely not about money or accolades or anything. But I think like, you getting your PhD, you starting this business, you doing this podcast, those are like crimes of curiosity. Right. Kind of like, how far can I take this? What can I do with this? I want to keep learning, I want to keep serving. And I feel like Jason too was about this relentless goal he had and that if he just created this product, he would feel successful and accomplished and have recognition. And then in that text, I said to you, like, he just fell prey to certain things. And do think we've seen that people fall prey to the hope of financial success, the hope of admiration, accomplishment, success on paper. And Jason too turned out to be like a pretty bad human because of his singular focus on this goal. Yeah.

B (8:39)

And it's a self motivated goal. Right, Right. It's a selfish goal. And I think that is something to consider. Like when we look at politicians, you know, we, we are. They're so awful and, you know, they're terrible people. They're not working for us. Or maybe we're obsessed with some of them. Oh, I love him. He's the best. And here's the thing is we should be looking at them, recognizing that they probably aren't always the best people, because to get to that position, you had to stomp on everybody on the way up. And I, I mean, we somehow equate wealth and success with like, other good qualities. And I think they. There are some of those things, but also there may be some not so great qualities that comes with those that climb. Super.

A (9:20)

Yeah. Well, it even seemed in the end of the book when Jason too was still the only Jason left who was so, like, relentlessly pursuing Daniella that it didn't have anything to do with Daniella or Charlie. It had to do with I'm taking what's mine and they are mine, that his singular focus on his overall success with this, like, product also was just the way he then led his life. Like, I'm gonna get Daniella and Charla B. I deserve It. And I loved that Daniela, in the end, was like, pardon my language, I'll say something else. F. No. She's like, no, I'm going with the Jason who loves me for me and who didn't make me feel all, like, hot and heavy like you did, but makes me feel safe and supported and seen in a way you don't.

B (10:05)

I know. You said that yesterday, and I thought that was such a good, poignant takeaway. One that, like, the path that you take actually defines who you become too, right? Like that you are a version of yourself, but that you can really get into these dark places with your social environment that turn you into not a great person or a super selfish person or a super entitled person. And I think I want to take this one step further. It's like, are the company you keep, right? Jason, too, was this renowned researcher, and he was at that lab protecting what he needed to and murdering people. Well, he may not have been, but there. This is what the lab is murdering people to protect this project. And they are ruthless in their pursuit of this project, understandably so, for what they unlocked in many ways. But you become that person. That's who you're surrounded by. That is what you're with versus the professor with the wife and the kid who he's surrounding himself with and how that has softened his heart in a way, and softened him to be the kind of person who would rather self sacrifice to protect his wife and child than take and kill others to get it.

A (11:13)

Two things. One is gonna be a total shift, but I'll bring it back. I promise. The other is just when he mentioned doing the raffle for her, I was like, this can't be how the book ends. This feels so Hunger Games. This feels like there's no. Anyway, that part just absolutely horrified me. So I'm glad it didn't come down to that, because I couldn't imagine how that would end up for him and for Daniella and for Charlie. But also saying, I hadn't thought about this, but you saying, it's who you surround yourself with. So when we were a part of a company, Brodin and Field, I'll just say it. I feel like there were times not you, and I'm not gonna knock myself, because I just think it was what you're talking about, where you get tunnel vision and you're so focused on a goal that you forget about the main thing is the main thing. And that that's when you do have to surround yourself with people like you and others who then also have These outside circles, who can call you on it and be like, hey, wait, this is starting to not feel like something we want to be a part of. And not just saying that company or that whatever, but just in the big picture. You have to have people around you who are going to be like, I see you straying from who you are, and we have to figure out how to not do that. Does that make sense?

B (12:23)

A hundred percent. And I totally know what you're talking about with Rodan Fields and it being like that really cutthroat at some point where it was like, I'm gonna serve me even, because that's the number one priority. And it made people really selfish in general. And I think that some of us did quicker than others recognize how toxic that was and start being like. But, you know, I also remember a time, probably a long, like a year, where I was like, it's a cult. I don't want anything to do with it. And others were still really invested and involved. And me feeling like I knew I was pissing people off all the time. And there was a lot of distance between myself and, you know, when some of the other, like, friends or leaders who were still really invested. And I also, I lost some friends by not buying in, you know, some friends through it, thankfully. I'm glad that we're all on this side of it now. But I do think, yeah, it's a really, really great example of how quickly your mindset can shift and how much you can engage in behaviors that you're like, that's not my identity. That's not who I am. That's not what who I want to be. But I'm so caught up in that, in this environment and this moment. This is something else. Okay. I just have been randomly thinking about also. This was always critical to me in partnerships when I was dating. So I didn't meet my husband till I was 30. So I got a whole lot of time as an adult to date lots of different people. Thousands. No, I'm just kidding. But I had lots of different opportunities to go out on dates and meet other people. And I dated one man whose friends were all, like, kind of scumbags. They would hit on women. They would cheat. One of them, like, had abused, had, like a domestic violence charge. Like, his friends would go cheat on trips together. And I was just like, this is. You are the company you keep. Like, you have chosen this group of friends who are going to always allow you to engage in that kind of behavior. And my husband, who I chose, his friends were all the opposite of that. His friends. Now, none of them would ever be okay with somebody with him doing anything that was like, against his marriage or, you know, dangerous or they, they're. They're good guys. And I'm. I'm really grateful for that. Anyway, I just. That always mattered to me in dating, like, look at the person that you're dating. There you go. For all you single folks, look at the person you're dating, who they surround themselves with.

A (14:47)

I'm finding that to be one of the challenging parts of parenting a teenager. And I'm sure anyone who's listening to who has teenagers will agree with me that you have to let. And my parents did this with me. You have to let your kids figure it out on their own. And it's so hard when you see them keeping company with people. And we, we recently had someone who was a friend of Hunter's start displaying some concerning activity that then Hunter picked up on just in terms of like drinking and drugs and stuff. And, you know, Hunter was able to finally see it for what it was. And of course, behind closed doors, Ben and I were like, we could have called that two years ago. But it's so hard when you have to let your teenager make these decisions to figure it out. Because if you don't and you just tell them you don't want to hang out with that person, they're going to lean into that person more. So just the, the company you keep. My mom used to say if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

B (15:41)

Yes. Well, and this is the thing is, I had such great benefit of meeting my husband later. Like lots of times I think people think then you have to get started later. You don't know each other as well, all of that. Guess what? I picked really, really carefully based on a whole lot of acquired, you know, 10 years of life knowledge that most people meet their partner, you know, when they're a lot younger. And I think, you know, I had to go through all those hard lessons then, like a teenager, right? So like teenagers have no experience. They start that and as you age, you just get more and more and gather more and more and. And now I feel like even in my relationships and friendships, I'm really mindful of what kind of person I have around me.

A (16:22)

We both are. You are for sure. And one of the red flags we will see in people is how they treat customer service representatives or new members to a group. Like, that's really either green flag or red flag. Immediate behavior. To me.

B (16:37)

Yep.

A (16:37)

You.

B (16:38)

You say snarky, mean things to try to. To people, to try to like, cut them down in it. You. And you're pretending like, that's funny. Like, I'll probably never see you again.

A (16:47)

Right. Well, you and I have talked about this. Actually. You said it first one time, and it. It made me feel warm and fuzzy when we were with all of my friends and I. It's not something I realized I did or didn't do, and it's something I did realize. You did. You just said. You said, you know, we talking about you and I. But you were talking about me at the time. You were like, you don't talk about your friends. Like, if there are concerns about them. Of course you and I talk about it together. If I'm like, hey, my friend's feeling this way. But in terms of just like, talking shitty about people, that's not a. That's not a hobby that we have nor one we're interested in having with other people.

B (17:25)

Yeah.

A (17:26)

It's just not a good use of anyone's time.

B (17:28)

Correct.

A (17:29)

Did you. Back to the. Just the actual book for a second. When Daniella asked him. Asked the real Jason when he had seen her do her art, like, did I seem happy? Did you feel.

B (17:41)

I don't know.

A (17:42)

That made me feel so grateful that she asked. And then she didn't seem sad that she didn't go that path.

B (17:48)

I know. Because I think if you take that pure path, and by pure, I just mean you follow your heart and you're thoughtful about others and you're kind, you know, regardless where it takes you, if it takes you to soaring success or it's professionally or it takes you to family, or it takes you to traveling the world, whatever it is. I think, how can you regret that?

A (18:10)

Yeah. And she. It didn't seem like she was asking him from a place of. She just really was like, did I. Did I seem happy?

B (18:18)

I have to tell you one thing. When we. As we've talked about regret, and I was trying to look this up. So I have here that I love the concept of is. You said, you know, I don't have anything that I regret that I would change in terms of choices because it would change where I am now. And I feel the same. Of course I have regrets, but they're not life altering in terms of like, I wish I'd married this other person or I wish I'd, you know, none of that kind of regret. It's always like, I wish I hadn't gotten that argument or I wish I hadn't said that thing. And here's the really nice thing. I have a very bad memory. And have you ever. I don't. I don't catalog or clock those things. I think you and I talk about that. I don't hold grudges. Well. And I. I don't think it's that I actually genuinely forget. It's that I choose to not practice those neural firings, like, as much as possible. If I, like, start to think about something, I'm like, think about something else. And guess what? Those pathways go away, and you have less practice thinking about that bad, negative thing. And it. It dissipates. It's. The connection may be there, but it's unused. Right? So you're not going to naturally go there. We have the opportunity in our brains to change pathways. There's. There's actually so much evidence of the ways that we can do that. Right. But our brains and habits are our neural pathways that we have strengthened and strengthened and strengthened, and they become automatic. So when we tell ourselves every day, I'm unattractive, I'm unattractive, I'm unattractive, whatever. We look in the mirror, oh, I hate my nose, I hate my nose, I hate my nose. That's a default pathway that we're thinking about. If we instead change our narrative to be like, I'm grateful for my eyes, I love my eyes, I love my eyes, I love my eyes. Right? And that's. We practice that. That's going to be our default pathway when we look at ourselves. So as just a really small example, I feel the same is true with the bad things that have happened to you if you let yourself constantly ruminate. And we can't help it sometimes, right? Especially right away, there's that initial trauma sometimes of what we have done. We maybe create our own trauma. And you think about it all the time. But once time has passed and you can, instead of letting yourself ruminate on it, you try to decay that pathway, essentially, right. Try to atrophy it. And there's some amazing quotes that I always think about and that I rely on. And so Rita May Brown is one of them. She says one of the keys to happiness is a bad memory. And I always think that's true. And I feel like I'm. I am generally, like, happy with my life. And a lot of that is because I don't remember what the. If you say, what are your regrets? Like, I don't even want to go back and think about them. That's not helpful to Me. So I'm like, let's just move along. Another quote that I really like is Albert Schweitzer. It's. Happiness is nothing more than good health and a bad memory. So, you know, there's a lot of iterations of thinking about that, but I think recognizing that if you can kind of let go of the bad and move forward and acknowledge the gratitude and where you are, that can make you more satisfied, life satisfied.

A (21:01)

I love all of that. It also makes me think that when you're surrounded by people like Jason and Daniella in the book were, who really love you for exactly who you are, that when you do do something because people hurt one another, it's just a part of the human condition. And someone forgives you, it's. It's kind of shitty for you to then sit in that and to not forgive yourself. Because I, like, I'm someone who just over apologizes because that's just who I am as a person. And that you have to trust that if someone you love says you're forgiven, that you are allowed to move on also. And then it's holding back the relationship, in this case Jason or Daniello, that it holds back the relationship, the marriage, the companionship.

B (21:43)

If.

A (21:43)

If either of you decide to stay in that moment of hurt and that if both people have decided this is a relationship we want to continue happening even though we had this bump in the road, then you do move on. Right. So in the book, when Daniella was like, did you sleep with her and Jason? And then she's like, you have to tell me how it. How it was. And he told her, and then you could tell it was just like, okay, but we're still going to be together and we're. We're moving forward, right? Yeah.

B (22:11)

I mean, you're allowed to feel pain. It doesn't mean you have to let it control the whole narrative of everything. And also, I think you're right. I think it's a really good point. Like, when someone hurts you, if you decide to let that go, you really want the other person to also. Because you don't want to have to visit and visit it and visit it. Right. And I understand their pain may be greater than yours even in this situation, because they inflicted it. And that's really hard to handle. If you are a person who is not a sociopath and you have a little empathy, then, you know, but you have to. You both have to try to, like, yeah, atrophy. It doesn't mean you atrophy it all the way. That pathway where you're like, well, I'll do that again.

A (22:49)

Right there. There was a little bit more. This is a totally different topic, but there was a little bit more violence and actual, like, scary stuff in this book than I had anticipated. Just the last hour of, like, people getting shot and stabbed and cars running over people. I was like, oh, I did not expect this.

B (23:07)

Oh, I know. It was so gross.

A (23:09)

Yeah. And I thought his idea to get arrested was absolutely brilliant.

B (23:14)

Yeah, me too. I thought that was really interesting to have them then Charlie and Daniela come down there.

A (23:19)

Yeah.

B (23:19)

Or just Daniella.

A (23:21)

The only part that in the audiobook I didn't like, just because I don't like hearing things over and over again, is when he logged into the computer and it was like, Jason 19, Jason 129, Jason 12. I was like, please stop saying Jason and numbers.

B (23:34)

Oh, I know.

A (23:34)

I can't listen to this anymore. Okay.

B (23:37)

I will say, though, that I. I agreed. There were a couple times that it did that where It'd be like Jason 21 said. And it was like a whole conversation. Jason 21. How do you say? But I really liked that. It was almost always the same response. And I really liked it when he did go through a list. I'm sure if you're reading the book, it would be super funny because you just see a whole page of Jason's with a number with the exact same response. I just thought that was really clever to be like, it's still the same person. It's the same person. It's one person. So the responses are going to be 99% the same.

A (24:09)

Did you at any point think, think. I'll just say, I did not. But you're better at reading books than I am. But did you at any point think at the end maybe that's not the real Jason? And all of a sudden it was going to be one of the bad ones? Okay. I didn't either, because I thought that would be a different story that they're telling.

B (24:27)

No. And I loved that there was, like, a happy ending. But the thing is, is I. I couldn't fathom how they were going to get out of it. So I actually really loved that it was Charlie that created their next, next world.

A (24:37)

Yeah. I got goosebumps. And when he just goes. When Charlie was like, but what door do I pick? And he goes, I trust you. I was like, oh, I have to cry and run at the same time. This is hard.

B (24:46)

I know. I. I just thought, what a beautiful and story that he's crafted and created this life for this kid that is so rich that he knows he's going to pick them a great home and future.

A (24:59)

Do you think you'll watch the series on Apple tv?

B (25:02)

What I want to say yes, but this was actually a problem for me. And this has happened to me before. And I can't remember with what book or when, but I really hated seeing even the COVID of the movie, like with the castings. Like, I wanted to just see the original Dark Matter cover. But on the audiobook, there was the COVID that had the picture of the Apple TV show. And I was like, that's not what Jason looks like. And it really pissed me off the whole time. And I do not like that person cast for Jason. Who is it?

A (25:30)

No, but I thought the same thing. So I tried to find. I tried to find Dark Matter on Audible with a different cover and. But I could only find it in German. And I was like, I can't listen to German, but I do like Jennifer Connelly a lot.

B (25:43)

Is that who it is?

A (25:44)

Yeah, she's the actress. I don't know who the actor is.

B (25:48)

You know, now that I zoom, I should have zoomed in. Oh, my. This is here. It's what it's like to be friends with Emily and just an insight into my brain how ridiculous it is. It's Joel Edgerton, you know?

A (26:00)

Yes, I see. I'm looking at it right now.

B (26:02)

I don't.

A (26:03)

But I wouldn't have pictured him that way.

B (26:05)

No, it might be fine. I'll watch the show. But. Okay, this is who I think I was. I was picturing Benedict Cumberbatch.

A (26:14)

No, that would have been a horrible Jason.

B (26:16)

And I was like, I don't really care for that look personally. And just. He's just very hard, harsh looking. And I just was like, that's not him. That's not Jason. So I thought it was Benedict Cumberbatch. And I ruined the book for myself by just thinking that rather than actually doing any kind of like the quickest Google search.

A (26:35)

That's funny. Well, I couldn't find it in anything other than German without that cover. So I pictured Jennifer Connelly the whole time. But I like her.

B (26:42)

Me too. Well, I'm. I'm down with Jennifer Connelly. That's fine. Okay, I'm gonna watch the Apple TV show. Now that I know it's not Benedict Cumberbatch, maybe this guy will be a good Jason. I love Jennifer Connelly. I think the story is so fascinating. It's worth a watch. Is it a or a movie?

A (26:55)

It's A series, which is better? Who has time to watch? Do you always say I can watch six hours of a series, but I can't watch a two hour movie?

B (27:03)

No, definitely not. I. That's not gonna work for me either. I love that so much. I was just trying to look for one other thing, but I got. I got nothing.

A (27:10)

It's nine episodes.

B (27:11)

Okay, yeah, I'm into it. I'm into it. I'm gonna watch it.

A (27:14)

Do you know, last thing, and then we'll let everybody go. Do you know anything else that Blake has written? Because this is pretty recent. I mean, a couple years ago, but I wonder if there's anything. Blank books.

B (27:28)

Yeah, he's written lots of things. And I actually just saw some people on one of our threads commenting about how much they like some of his other books. Like Pines.

A (27:36)

Oh yeah. Pines looks absolutely terrifying.

B (27:40)

Yeah, I'm not sure if they are all so Dark matter is not new. It's old. It's 2016.

A (27:45)

Oh yeah. The movie was like 20. Oh yeah. I should never have said this about Blake Crouch. I should look things up before I talk. He has a. A lot of books.

B (27:52)

Yes. So I've wayward. I mean, I'm interested in a lot of them. It looks like one just came out called famous in 2025 or is coming out.

A (28:02)

Okay. There's also one that. That's named Abandoned from 2009 and it just has a snowy picture in the back. So you should read that one.

B (28:10)

Yeah, I think I should read anything with snow. But also, I don't know if he's a lot of like, I don't know if they're kind of sci fi also or thrillers. We're gonna have to find that out. Gee, it's almost like we could have googled some of this too.

A (28:25)

If you're listening, Blake, we'll delete this.

B (28:27)

Part for legal purposes. This is a joke. We're just gonna say that at the end of every episode now, right? Ash, can you put in like a. Like a footer that says that for legal purposes, we were joking about everything.

A (28:37)

Everything is our opinion and it's all a lie. Okay, thanks guys.

B (28:41)

Thanks for listening.

A (28:43)

Thanks for listening.

B (28:44)

For more content, find us on Patreon at the creepy book club.

A (28:48)

Happ. Sam.