Everyone is Watching By Heather Gudenkauf

Summary

Books With Your Besties – Episode Summary: "Everyone is Watching" by Heather Gudenkauf

Release Date: August 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Books With Your Besties, hosts Emily and Ashley delve into Heather Gudenkauf's gripping novel, "Everyone is Watching." Combining deep literary analysis with their trademark humor and chemistry, Emily and Ashley explore the book's dark themes, character motivations, and broader societal implications.

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Host Introductions and Book Selection

Emily and Ashley kick off the episode with enthusiasm about Heather Gudenkauf, a favorite author who previously attended their retreat and is slated to return in 2026. Ashley expresses her initial surprise at the book's darkness, stating:

Ashley [01:07]: "She's a lot darker than I anticipated when I started reading her stuff."

Emily concurs, highlighting Gudenkauf’s ability to channel her inherently gentle personality into intense, dark narratives:

Emily [01:19]: "All that darkness comes right out on the page."

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Understanding Heather Gudenkauf’s Writing Style

The discussion transitions into Gudenkauf's unique writing style, particularly her ability to portray brutality without it feeling gratuitous. Emily praises Gudenkauf's mastery in evoking emotion through necessary violence:

Emily [02:07]: "Heather's brutal. I love her stories. I love. I think the brutality actually brings more to the story. It's not gratuitous."

Ashley echoes this sentiment, noting Gudenkauf’s skill in crafting intense murder and violence scenes:

Ashley [01:43]: "Heather writes really good, like, death, murder, violence scenes."

They also reference Gudenkauf's other works, mentioning how "Overnight Guest" is notably harsher than "Everyone is Watching," with Emily recounting her experience of needing breaks while reading:

Emily [01:29]: "Overnight Guest is, like, brutal. Like, I had to, like, take breaks and not read it at night."

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Book Recap and Plot Overview

Emily and Ashley provide a concise recap of "Everyone is Watching," framing it as a reality show set in Northern California with a grand prize of $10 million. Ashley muses on the allure of such a prize, questioning whether it’s enough to endure the extreme competitions featured in the book:

Ashley [02:23]: "The prize is a huggy. And you'd be like, I'm in."

Emily playfully debates reality TV participation, highlighting her discomfort with being on camera despite the enticing prize:

Emily [02:51]: "I'm not cut out for reality TV. I think you would go compete just for funsies."

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Character Analysis and Themes

Secrets and Personal Stakes

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the characters' dark secrets and the psychological tensions they create. Ashley reflects on the characters' deeply held secrets that, if exposed, would be devastating:

Ashley [04:29]: "The secrets in the book are bad, right? Like, two college friends accidentally killed someone. That's horrible."

Emily concurs, emphasizing the fear of having such secrets exposed:

Emily [04:36]: "If I had a deep, dark secret like they have, then I would not want that exposed."

They further analyze Kat, the producer, and her role in the story, noting how her transformation and desire for revenge add layers to the narrative:

Ashley [05:01]: "Kat was behind the scenes the whole time. It's such a story of, like, she waited so long to seek revenge."

Power and Its Corrupting Influence

The hosts delve into the theme of power and its ability to alter one's personality and ethics. Reflecting on the character Fern, Ashley discusses how gaining power can lead to a loss of compassion and empathy:

Ashley [13:19]: "At what point do people lose that compassion and empathy piece and become completely hardwired to just chase money and fame and power totally."

Emily expands on this by comparing it to real-life examples of influencers and their authentic selves versus their online personas:

Emily [14:11]: "I think people like Elon Musk and Kat from the book are out of touch with regular people. They don't interact with them."

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Parasocial Relationships and Societal Reflection

Emily and Ashley explore the concept of parasocial relationships—one-sided relationships where one party extends emotional energy without reciprocation. They draw parallels between the book's reality TV setup and modern social media dynamics:

Ashley [07:38]: "Parasocial relationships can actually reduce loneliness in a momentary way but don't resolve the need for true connection."

Emily adds that while these relationships offer some comfort, they do not substitute for genuine human interactions:

Emily [07:29]: "Parasocial relationships can actually reduce loneliness in a momentary way and like increase happiness in a momentary way."

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Real-World Connections and Ethical Considerations

The conversation shifts to real-world issues, such as the moral dilemmas faced by individuals in desperate circumstances. Ashley references a runner caught doping not for personal gain but to support her community:

Ashley [20:03]: "What if you're doing something because it changes the life of your family or your village?"

Emily praises Gudenkauf for portraying characters with compelling motivations, avoiding trite explanations for their actions:

Emily [20:34]: "Heather did such a good job of crafting that in the book and making you understand why some of these people would be there."

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Personal Reflections and Relatability

Emily and Ashley share personal anecdotes and reflections that relate to the book’s themes. They discuss the universal struggle to understand others' motivations, much like seeking reasons behind a breakup:

Emily [16:10]: "There's something else there. We just love to point at tangible actions."

Ashley relates the book’s darker themes to everyday experiences of rejection and the desire for understanding:

Ashley [19:36]: "It's human nature to want to hear something that you could change to not feel this rejection."

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Overall Impressions and Ratings

When asked to rate the book, Emily and Ashley provide high praise, though they slightly moderate their enthusiasm due to their fondness for Gudenkauf’s other works:

Ashley [24:07]: "Emily, Everyone is Watching easily four and a half."

Emily [24:40]: "We still have a few copies I think that you can get through our website if anyone wants to pick it up."

Ashley notes the book's balance of fun and darkness, emphasizing its scare factor despite its playful veneer:

Ashley [22:36]: "It's like fun. But also you're like, oh, they're doing basically Russian roulette to reveal secrets or chasing each other through corn mazes with tasers."

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Additional Content and Community Engagement

Towards the end of the episode, Emily and Ashley promote additional content available through their website and Patreon. They highlight interviews with Heather Gudenkauf and encourage listeners to engage with their community for bonus content and behind-the-scenes access.

Ashley [25:50]: "If you head to Patreon, our interview with Heather about this book is there."

They also discuss their retreat events, where listeners can meet authors and participate in immersive discussions:

Ashley [26:13]: "Make sure you have your tickets to retreat so you can meet Heather and hang out with us."

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Conclusion

Emily and Ashley wrap up the episode by reiterating their love for "Everyone is Watching" and Heather Gudenkauf’s body of work. They encourage listeners to explore the book, engage with their online community, and attend upcoming retreats for a deeper dive into the world of creepy and captivating literature.

Emily [26:20]: "Thanks for listening."

Ashley [26:25]: "Happy reading."

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Ashley [01:07]: "She's a lot darker than I anticipated when I started reading her stuff."
• Emily [02:07]: "Heather's brutal. I love her stories. I love. I think the brutality actually brings more to the story. It's not gratuitous."
• Ashley [05:01]: "Kat was behind the scenes the whole time. It’s such a story of, like, she waited so long to seek revenge."
• Emily [07:29]: "Parasocial relationships can actually reduce loneliness in a momentary way and like increase happiness in a momentary way."
• Ashley [20:03]: "What if you're doing something because it changes the life of your family or your village?"
• Emily [24:07]: "We still have a few copies I think that you can get through our website if anyone wants to pick it up."
• Ashley [25:50]: "If you head to Patreon, our interview with Heather about this book is there."

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For More Information:

• Website: thecreepybookclub.com
• Patreon: Creepy Book Club on Patreon
• Retreat Tickets: Available at thecreepybookclub.com

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Happy Reading!

Transcript

[Ashley]

We are thrilled to announce that this episode is brought to you by Lagoon Pillow. As women in our 40s who are trying to take care of our health and wellness, we know that good mornings start with optimal sleep. And Lagoon pillows are made just for that. They're customizable, supportive, and will have you waking up feeling your best. I personally am an otter head. To lagoonsleep.com, take the sleep quiz and use code Vook club for for 15% off your next order. A quick reminder, we have retreat tickets on [e-mail] we cannot wait to see you in Arizona, February 2026.

[Emily]

Hi, I'm Emily.

[Ashley]

I'm Ashley.

[Emily]

And this is Books with your besties.

[Ashley]

Hi, besties. We are here to talk about Everyone Is Watching Today by Heather Gudenkopf. Heather was at our retreat last year and is coming back to retreat in 2026. And I don't think I'm lying when I. She's one of our favorite authors. Is that.

[Emily]

Absolutely.

[Ashley]

Totally agree. And she actually is a lot darker than I anticipated when I started reading her stuff.

[Emily]

She's. She is not gentle, and I love that, especially knowing her personality and how she is gentle as a human. All that darkness comes right out on the page.

[Ashley]

Was. I know that we're not talking about Heather, but was the first book of hers you read the Overnight Guest?

[Emily]

Yes. Okay.

[Ashley]

And I think I hadn't read that one. I read that after Everyone is Watching.

[Emily]

Oh, you did, right. I remember that. That's why you didn't know how dark she was. Because Everyone Is Watching is a bit gentler. It's still got a lot of violence, but it's a less. And death. But Overnight Guest is, like, brutal. Like, I had to, like, take breaks and not read it at night.

[Ashley]

Well, and then her other one, which no spoilers, not a sound, was also pretty. You know, we interviewed Kara Ruda yesterday, and she was talking about working with Heather. I'm not going to give any spoilers, but she was like, you know, Heather writes really good, like, death, murder, violence scenes. And she's like, I don't. I'm like, yeah, Heather's brutal.

[Emily]

Are they scared of her? A little bit, yes.

[Ashley]

Kara goes, I just poison people. I don't actually kill them.

[Emily]

She. Heather's. I just. I love her stories. I love. I think the brutality actually brings more to the story. It's not gratuitous. It's, like, necessary for you to feel the emotion of what happened. And I. I think. I just think she's masterful in that way. I've read every single book in her catalog.

[Ashley]

I can't wait for her next book. Okay, everyone is watching. So we're not going to go through the book because you guys have read it. If you're listening to this episode, but just the quick recap. It's a reality show set in Northern California, and if you are the lucky winner, you win $10 million. Is that an amount of money you think could convince you to try to be on a show like this? Maybe also a maybe. But when it gets into the types of competitions they do, there's no amount of money that would survive.

[Emily]

Here's the thing. I'm not cut out for reality tv. I think you are. I think you would go compete just for funsies. They'd be like, the prize is a huggy. And you'd be like, I'm in. I am like, $10 million. I'm like, but I won. What are the odds I'm gonna win? Like, one in 10. Like, 10%. And then two, I have to be on TV, which is not my cup of tea. I have a face made for podcasting. Absolutely made for it.

[Ashley]

Well, then the contestants get there, right? So let's pretend you're like, all right, I'm gonna go to this reality show, and it's been made clear I'm going to have some uncomfortable situations physically. Right. Like, I'm gonna have to compete in these events. But then they get there and discover. No. They know my deepest, darkest secrets. And if I lose, those are shared. That's scarier than any physical competition, I think, for me.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yes.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Like, there are certain things that I hold near and dear that aren't secrets that would, like, make or break my life, but I certainly don't want them on tv.

[Emily]

I'm trying to figure out what mine are. Like the time that I. My boyfriend's mom walked in when I didn't have a shirt on. Like, if that got shared out publicly, I would never live that down. I don't have good secrets. I'm so boring.

[Ashley]

I don't really either. And I tell everybody them anyway, so.

[Emily]

Me too. Like that. Like, I just shared it. But.

[Ashley]

But this. Their secrets in the book are bad, right? Like, two. The two college friends accidentally killed someone. That's horrible. And then someone who is having an affair, which is also terrible. So their secrets are secrets that I certainly wouldn't want exposed.

[Emily]

Yes. Agreed. If I had a deep, dark secret like they have, then I would not want that exposed.

[Ashley]

Yeah. One of the questions I saw about the book was, we have Kat, right? Who's the producer? And people were like, well, how did they not recognize her? But they never saw her, remember, because she was the producer of the show behind the scenes. Because they were like, how did they not recognize her? They went to school with her.

[Emily]

Right? But I guess people can change really dramatically. Like, if their weight and hair and everything changes a lot.

[Ashley]

And she was behind the scenes the whole time. Like, Fern. Remember Fearne was like, the main. Yeah, he was walking them through all of that. So Kat wasn't even really in the picture, but had ties to all of these people. It's such a story of, like, she waited so long to seek revenge.

[Emily]

I just don't have that kind of a patience B drive for anger. I mean, I'm an. I'm. I. I'm a ragey person. But that's like, in the moment. You know this. Like, I'll be, oh, how dare they? They will pay. And like, two months later, you're like, remember how they did that? And I'm like, no, what was it?

[Ashley]

Or I don't. I mean, I don't have the brain to seek revenge in that way. I can't focus for five seconds, let alone remember what someone did to me five years ago. But I'm just more petty, less like, I will seek revenge on you. And I'm more just like, I'll do something you do. Poke the bear.

[Emily]

People should watch out for, like, their, like, belongings. Like, if your cell phone gets shattered at retreat, you did something to Ashley.

[Ashley]

If it falls in the pool, it could be that I saw you looking at me weird. And the retreat promenade area, one side.

[Emily]

Eye, and she'll ruin your cell phone. I'll be more like, I'm gonna kick her out of the hotel. And then an hour later, I'll be like, cheersing that person with an espresso martini. All is forgotten. All is good.

[Ashley]

I did think the book, though. I want to talk about this a little bit, had bigger implications about the, like, the public being involved in these people's lives. Like, getting to vote and see who got kicked off. I mean, I get invested in things right now that I think this has nothing to do with me, but I'm putting so much energy into to this.

[Emily]

Like, what?

[Ashley]

Well, just reality TV in general. Like, why do I care so much about these people?

[Emily]

But that's true of social media, too. I mean, I think there's some good commentary there for just parasocial relationships, right? Like a parasocial relationship is one in which you are in a relationship with someone who is not in a relationship with you because they're a character in a book. Taylor Swift, pop star influencer, lots of miles, right. Like, that's a parasocial relationship. And I mean, research shows that there is a lot of benefit to them. Like they can actually reduce loneliness in a, in a momentary way and like increase happiness in a momentary way. But it doesn't actually reduce overall life loneliness or chronic or long term kinds of. It doesn't resolve the issue of needing true connection and social interaction.

[Ashley]

Well, and do you feel like if you have true connection and social interaction, you're less likely to put so much value in those parasocial relationships?

[Emily]

That's a great question. There's probably research out there that actually asks that exact question. And I don't, I don't know it and I don't have the answer, but I can look. But I mean, my instinct would be, yeah, that I would think that if you have a robust social life and robust connections in the real world that feel fulfilling enough to you that you would be less likely to be really moved by a parasocial relationship. But I'm not sure if that's true.

[Ashley]

Well, I also just think, just a personal example, like social norms. Right. There's someone I follow. His name's Chris Chavez. He is on City smag. He's like a celebrity to me. And I was running in Eugene and he ran by me and I saw him and I was like, oh my God, that's Chris Chavez. And but you know what I didn't do? I didn't stop his run and be like, hey, Chris, I'm your friend on the Internet. Because I'm not really his friend.

[Emily]

Well, and I think it's, I think it's great to admire people. We all do. I think there's a difference, right? Like, parasocial relationships can be. I think everybody has some degree of them. So it's like that's how we became friends. I watched you for years.

[Ashley]

Through a window.

[Emily]

We didn't have. We didn't have cell phones, so I had to watch in real life. No, but I mean, I think there's utility in. Of course we all look at people online and are like, oh, he's so great, or like, I love what she does. Or that looks like someone I would enjoy from the things that I see about them. But I think that there's degrees, right? You don't want to, you don't want to end up baby reindeering somebody. You don't want to get to where you have this idea of a relationship that isn't there and make that uncomfortable for someone. It's, like, great to be like, I really enjoy you. I really think you're great. And I've seen this, like, look, are we speaking from experience? We sure are. Because one of us, I won't name names, but not me, is Internet famous. Right. And so we have people come up to you. I mean, I'm just talking about how I've seen it, but when I'm with you, people will come up to you and talk about how great you are or talk about how they saw you, or they'll message you that they saw you somewhere. And probably somebody in sun river overheard our horrific conversations. Sorry, apologies. But. So I've. I've seen that, and it's really lovely. They're very polite. Do they bother you or what do you think of those things?

[Ashley]

No, not at all. People. It doesn't bother me in any way, shape or form. If someone's coming up in a kind way just to be like, oh, my gosh, I follow you and I feel inspired to run or whatever, I think that's a really kind, friendly way to approach someone, especially if they're not looking to have a long conversation or, like, be rude. I've never had anybody be rude or mean in real life. Those are. Those Internet people stay on the Internet.

[Emily]

That's good.

[Ashley]

Yeah. But maybe. I mean, I do remember, I think I moved into our apartment complex first and then you moved in. So I'm starting to believe your story of spying on me.

[Emily]

I signed the lease of just 10 minutes after you signed yours.

[Ashley]

Ah, okay. I'm moving us to a totally different part of this book and conversation because I want to talk about it and I'm selfish, so I'm making you talk about it, too. But we have. What was the girl? Oh, was it Mare?

[Emily]

No.

[Ashley]

So we have Fern, who was kind of the, like, not showrunner, but, like, host. Right. Like a real host. So Fern is the host, Cat is the producer. It turns out Cat is ill and going to die. And at the end of the book, even though Fern has seen the destruction in these people's lives and basically how horrible this show was to these people's individual lives, there's going to be a season two, and Fern is going to host it. That's how the book ends and produce it. So I just think it's a bigger conversation about when people get, like, a taste of power and do something. I think if you ask them before they had that taste of power they never would do.

[Emily]

I definitely think that power probably changes people. I mean, we've talked to, we've talked to authors about this, how there are authors who get a little taste of fame or power from money and they change. Right. Other authors have told us that before. And if Heather changed, Heather Goodenkopf changed at all, she must have gotten nicer because I can't imagine she could be much nicer. And her sisters, her sisters came. Oh, my gosh, we love, we love her sisters too. They came last year to retreat and we were like, the whole fam's got to come back.

[Ashley]

They have to come back.

[Emily]

They are so nice. Anyway, I just. So, yeah, we're definitely not talking about Heather in that context, but I think probably power. You know, there are some people, and there's always stuff on, on social media about influencers that are not nice in real life or not who they portray themselves to be in real life. I think you are much nicer in real life than you are on the Internet.

[Ashley]

Absolutely. I'm.

[Emily]

I think you on the Internet, you like swear more on the Internet than you do in real life.

[Ashley]

I was, I was running with my friends Rachel and Mary yesterday and I was talking about how you and I had to have a difficult conversation with a business relationship partner. I won't out them here. And I was like, my plan was to say nothing because in real life I am not confrontational. I was like, I was just gonna let Emily take one for the team.

[Emily]

Did. I definitely took the lead at the end there where I was like, excuse me.

[Ashley]

But I, I was saying to them, you are so good at being not emotional and fact based, but assertive. And I'm like, I just get really emotionally invested in things and upset. And then my words don't, they don't make sense.

[Emily]

I think you don't give yourself enough credit there. I think you're actually very good at that stuff. But you are different online than in person. Like, we all are same here, right? I swear much more in person than I do online. I gotta watch my mouth in my professional situations.

[Ashley]

Well, we talked about this too when we were talking about, was it Elon Musk or something on another podcast that it's clear in the book that Fern loses the plot of this is real people's lives you're with or messing with because she gets the taste of power. And it's just like, we don't need to talk about it a bunch because we did. But like, at what point do people lose that compassion and empathy piece and become completely hardwired to just chase money and fame and power totally.

[Emily]

Well, I think they have to lose their humanity and just have no sense anymore of what it's like. I mean, I think probably most of us have out groups, right? In groups and out groups, like people who are so different from us that we don't interact with anyone who is like that. Right. Like, we don't have any friends who are of some specific subtype. Like, for example, living on the west coast, being a person who works at a university, I do have a lot of friends who are very educated, whatever.

[Ashley]

I just.

[Emily]

I don't hang out with anybody who's like. And this is dumb. This is a dumb example because it's like, well, yeah, because they live in Arkansas. But like, I don't hang out with like. Like southerners who ride ATVs on the weekend and like go shoot guns and hunt and that's like a lot of their activities. Like, I don't know. I don't hang out with anybody who's like that or interact with them. So I am sure I have misconceptions about some of their ideas and them mine. Right. So we just. When we don't interact with people. My point is, I think people like Elon Musk and Kat from the book and Fern maybe on some level, although I was rooting for Fern and I felt sorry for her too. She was in such a bad position. But people in those situations, they don't interact with the regulars. They don't interact with. It's not about like whether or not you hunt an ATV or you like wine, taste and do book club. It's literally like all of us are. Are they are out of touch with.

[Ashley]

Yeah, all of us. The way the different. I was going to say sins because we talked about religion yesterday, but the different secrets people came with. I was surprised that I had the strongest reaction to. I'm forgetting the character's name, but the one who falsely accused the man of having a gun and like coming to her office. She was the therapist. And yeah, he ended up. Did he. He ended up committing suicide, right?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Or something. For me, that one was like, she manipulated that situation to that point. That one, even though there was somebody who had sexually assaulted women and someone who had done other things, that one to me felt almost the scariest.

[Emily]

Well, yeah, for me it maybe wasn't the scariest, but it definitely was. Like, it's basically almost again, the online thing. There are people who bully people online to the point that Then they take their own lives. Right. So it's the same concept of that happens, I guess. You know, I'm gonna just consider myself fortunate that I don't have any secrets like those because I think it was like something that got out of control for that woman.

[Ashley]

Yeah, total tangent, but just do this. I watched a, I think it was the Dateline on Brian Coburger and they brought up bullying and how he had been really overweight and he was bullied and then lost some weight, came back and instead of then kind of deciding like, I don't want to treat people the way they treated me was like, no, I'm going to full on treat people that way like I am now the bully.

[Emily]

Interesting. Yeah, there's, it's funny because I could go on a long tangent about theories of crime and you know, bullying as a piece of, of what can come into it. But, but here's the thing. We love to pick apart and analyze people for in their past what happened to them and so did that make them this way. But then I can show you 500,000 other people who had the same same experiences or very similar experiences who didn't murder four people or even want to. So it's like there's something else there. We just love to point at tangible actions. Not that I'm saying that that's what happened in the Dateline documentary. I think, I think everybody knows there's more screws loose in Brian Coburger than we can possibly capture. Everyone wants a motive. Everyone wants a motive. I don't think he has a motive. I think he wanted to kill for the thrill and get away from it. And maybe there was some rage there that he was trying to get out. But I don't think we're gonna get a motive. That's like, well, you know, Kaylee told me no on a date and so I killed all four of the roommates. Like, I just, it's, there's just not going to be a satisfactory answer. This Ted Bundy, you know that when he died, you know, he killed 25ish women. We don't actually know the number because he took it to his grave, but we know he killed a lot of college women, aged women, and he never admitted to any of his crimes. And then the night before he was executed, he did a whole interview where he blamed pornography. He said all of it. I did, because of pornography. Pornography is so bad because it gets progressively, you need more and more and it gets more and more extreme. And that's what led me to this place like he would. And I think Brian Coburger, in the same vein, will never take full responsibility and will never. I mean, at least he pled guilty. Ted Bundy was worse and probably a bigger psychopath. But, like, I just. I just don't think the answers are going to come that anyone wants. You know, there's. There's some really interesting research out there about some of that where it's like, there is no good answer. And. And I'm just going to liken it to something really trite because it's not something most of us should ever or hopefully will ever experience to, like, lose somebody like that, right? Like to lose somebody to homicide or like to have somebody we love murdered. But haven't you ever been in a situation where you're, like, broken up with or somebody doesn't want to date you anymore, you're, like, ghosted or something? And when they give you the answers, you. You can't get the answers that you're looking for. They're like, I just don't want to be in a relationship or whatever. And you're like, but I don't understand why not. Like, I don't ask a lot of you, and it's just like, is this vicious? It's never satisfactory. You're never going to get the answer that you want because the answer is just one you don't want. Does that make sense? The answer is they don't like you enough to be in a relationship with you. They don't want to be with you. So the answer of why did Brian Coburger do this? I mean, maybe there's some things he could say that would bring some closure to the family. I just doubt that will ever come out. But maybe why did he do it? He wanted to. And that's just not going to be good enough for anyone to hear, right? Does that make sense?

[Ashley]

It completely makes sense. And I also think when you were talking about the breakup thing, too, if. If it's. If someone says to you basically, like, it's just because I don't want to be with you. I. I feel like it's human nature to want to hear something that you could change, right? What could I change to. To not feel this rejection. And if it's just you as a person, that's not a tangible thing you can change, and you just have to stomach it and be like, well, all right. Not a good fit, right?

[Emily]

It's so hard. It's so hard because the answer you want is, you're right, I'm wrong. I Want to be with you and let's get married. And that's never going to be what you're going to get.

[Ashley]

Right. I did. I know I'm taking us all over the place, but I did think the most relatable character in the book for me was the mom who's. Whose child was chronically ill.

[Emily]

Totally.

[Ashley]

I really did think, like, well, I'm not going to, like, try to climb a fence and get tasered or whatever happened in the first crazy competition for $10 million, but if I know that I can save my kid, yeah, I'm. I'll do anything.

[Emily]

Well, and that's what. When you ask, would I do that for $10 million? It's like, I come from such a privileged place of being, like, but I have enough. My, my. I'm not at risk of losing my home. I have enough food. I have what I need. And so I can make that assessment in such a different way. Like, Mare was looking down the. A future of very much. So much uncertainty financially and just so scared for her security for her and her child.

[Ashley]

Yeah, this. I swear this is going to tie into the book, but it's not going to sound like it at first, but there's a big conversation going on about this exact thing. In the running world, there's a runner that was caught doping, and that just means where you, like, take drugs to be able to run faster, run further. And she is now being punished. So she can't run for a few years. She can't earn an income. She runs for Kenya. And there's a really big conversation now going on around, yes, you're not supposed to do that. And what if in her circumstance, this is what she's doing because it changes the life of her family, her village, her. Because she doesn't have the resources that the runners here have. So, like, yes, she has to go down. But what about all these systems that are in place that led her to make this decision to risk her career because it was bettering lives for tons of people at home? So exactly what you're saying, that just, like, if you have enough, you don't even have to think about these things, but if you don't, you're kind of willing to risk what you need to risk to help yourself and others.

[Emily]

Yeah, totally. I thought that Heather did such a good job of crafting that in the book and making you understand why some of these people would be there and be involved, and even to the point that she made some of them seem like they were just kind of like, they were chasing the fame and the excitement and the money. But they all had their reasons too, you know, And I liked that she doesn't. She doesn't make Right. Trite books. And this was her most playful one. Isn't that funny? Because she doesn't write playful, but it still at least had a playful backbone with, like, the reality show and Influencer and some of that stuff that was a little more, like, fun. And then, of course, also really scary.

[Ashley]

Yeah, like fun. But also you're like, oh, they're doing basically Russian roulette to reveal secrets or, like, chasing each other through corn mazes with tasers. I'm like, oh, my God. This book is actually scary.

[Emily]

That's the thing is I just. I think I would take, like 30 more. 30 years off my life. I'd make it like five more years. I'd have some sort of heart. Heart condition if someone was chasing me with a taser.

[Ashley]

Gosh. So we recommend anything she writes. We're using her book as our December book of the month. Yeah, I don't, you know, what the. What the, like, summary? No, I don't. We just pick it because it's her.

[Emily]

Well, and also, you know, I mean, why are we picking books? Because luckily we ask our Patreon members a lot to help weigh in on what we should pick. But we just look at, like, titles and very brief topics of things that look good and authors we like. Because I don't like to go in knowing very much. We love to read blind. We're like, yeah, give us a book. Let's start reading.

[Ashley]

Well, I do want to go back for the listeners, if you don't know. Heather hosts Killer Author Club with Kara Ruda and Kimberly Bell. And, you know, Hunting Wives, which is the total rage on Netflix right now, is based off of a book. The book was by Meg. I'm forgetting her last name.

[Emily]

No, May.

[Ashley]

May Cobb. May Cobb wrote Hunting Wives, and they just had her on.

[Emily]

Oh, fun.

[Ashley]

I want to go check out the interview with May and then finish watching the show, which is crazy.

[Emily]

Totally. For sure.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's. I'm only two episodes in and you just can't watch it with kids in the room.

[Emily]

What would you give? Stars wise, everyone is watching easily four and a half. Oh, good. I think I'm going solid four. I mean, it's hard because I pit her books against each other, and you shouldn't do that. So if I was just reading it as a standalone, but, like, not a sound. And overnight guests are my top two of hers.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Loved them both. I love. I loved all of her books. Like, but it gets. Everyone who's watching gets knocked down just teensy, tiny bit. Because I loved the other two so much.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I would agree if I look at it that way, but I think it was such a fun and dark book.

[Emily]

Yeah, I loved it. We still have a few copies I think that you can get through our website if anyone wants to pick it up. We. We are the Creepy Book Club dot com. Does everyone know that? Do people even know that?

[Ashley]

I don't think we ever say it.

[Emily]

Yeah. Also, you can meet Heather and listen to her talk about her newest release at our retreat in February. The creepy Retreat. You just got to go to the creepybookclub.com and see all the things we have going on. We have our hands in just about everything you can think of. You want to move and you need movers. Ashley does that. I'm just kidding. She doesn't do that. That's the one thing we're not doing.

[Ashley]

Got a private investigator. Emily does that.

[Emily]

The side, actually, Ashley does.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily]

If you do need a P.I. sometimes I'll be like, I have googled all over about this person and are they a safe person for whatever? And Ashley will come back with, like, here is a picture of them entering their residence.

[Ashley]

Like, what the check that's coming to retreat. And make sure they're safe.

[Emily]

That's a really good idea.

[Ashley]

Okay. Lastly, if you head to Patreon, our interview with Heather about this book is there. So you can see all the questions we asked her about everyone is watching and why she wrote it and how she got her ideas and all the things.

[Emily]

Yeah, you should be able to search in collections and under author interviews or just search for her name and it should come up. If it doesn't send us a message, maybe we'll see it and maybe. I just told you, we're a small business with four employees total, and Ashley and I do all. All the things.

[Ashley]

And can you clarify? We are two of those employees.

[Emily]

Exactly. Or two of the four employees.

[Ashley]

Okay, guys, thank you. Make sure you have your tickets to retreat so you can meet Heather and hang out with us.

[Emily]

Yep. Thanks for listening.

[Ashley]

Thanks for listening.

[Emily]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

[Ashley]

Happy reading.