Lauren McCluskey and bigger questions around why women aren't listened to

Summary

Books With Your Besties: Episode on Lauren McCluskey and the Bigger Questions Around Why Women Aren't Listened To

Release Date: January 25, 2025

Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Podcast Description:
Plug in, ignore real life for a bit and chat with your unhinged yet lovable besties Emily and Ashley. You get to hear about how life is going for us - filter free as besties. You’ll also hear what we are reading and our unfiltered thoughts on the book.

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1. Introduction to Domestic Thrillers

In this episode, Emily and Ashley dive into one of their favorite genres: domestic thrillers. They explain that domestic thrillers revolve around events within the home, often focusing on family dynamics and problematic marital relationships. Ashley sets the stage by asking, “What are some examples of domestic thrillers that you have loved?” (00:03).

2. Favorite Domestic Thrillers Discussed

Emily and Ashley share their top picks in the genre, highlighting titles that resonate with them personally. Emily introduces The New House by Tess Dimson, emphasizing its focus on relationships without giving away spoilers (00:45). Ashley adds Behind Closed Doors by B.A. Paris as another favorite, followed by the crowd-pleasing Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn, which both hosts agree is a must-read (01:26).

They also touch upon the works of Freedom McFadden, particularly The Housemaid, noting how the first book left a lasting impression due to its impactful twist (01:43). Additionally, they discuss Verity by Colleen Hoover, recognizing its controversial yet entertaining take on the genre (02:38).

3. Portrayal of Women in Domestic Thrillers

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the portrayal of female characters in domestic thrillers. Emily raises a critical point: “Even when women are trying... to write a strong female protagonist, women often come off as dumb and damsels in distress” (03:56). Ashley echoes this frustration, particularly with Freedom McFadden’s books, and recalls their conversation with Heather Gudenkopf about the novel Not a Sound where the protagonist avoids stereotypical portrayals (04:23).

They explore societal conditioning that pressures women to prioritize politeness over their instincts, leading to scenarios where women may deny their desires to seek safety or assert themselves (05:06). This discussion is further enriched by sharing a personal anecdote from Emily about a friend’s uncomfortable experience with unwanted physical contact, highlighting the internal conflict women face between being polite and protecting themselves (05:27).

4. Linking Domestic Thrillers to Real-Life Domestic Violence

Transitioning from fiction to reality, the hosts delve into the themes of domestic abuse and violence that are prevalent in domestic thrillers. They emphasize that these narratives often mirror real-life issues women face, such as abusive relationships and the challenges in escaping them (07:00).

5. Case Study: Lauren McCluskey

A pivotal part of the episode is dedicated to the tragic case of Lauren McCluskey, a student from Utah who was murdered by her ex-boyfriend after repeatedly seeking help from campus and local police without receiving adequate protection (15:49).

Emily provides an overview of Lauren’s attempts to secure help:

• Lauren met Melvin at a bar and soon realized he was not who he claimed to be.
• She reached out to campus security and local police multiple times, expressing her fear and the threat Melvin posed (17:27).
• Despite her efforts, the system failed to protect her, leading to her murder and Melvin’s subsequent suicide (17:27).

Ashley expresses her anger and frustration over the systemic failures that led to Lauren’s death, highlighting issues like jurisdictional hurdles and inadequate responses from law enforcement (18:11).

6. Case Study: Wendy Maldonado

The hosts then discuss the harrowing case of Wendy Maldonado from Southern Oregon in 2005. Wendy endured severe abuse from her husband, Aaron, and ultimately killed him in a desperate act to protect herself and her sons (20:00).

Key points from Wendy’s story include:

• Aaron's prolonged abuse and threats against Wendy and her children.
• The lack of effective law enforcement intervention despite multiple 911 calls (20:00).
• Wendy and her son Randy’s decision to kill Aaron to escape the violence, resulting in their imprisonment despite the dire circumstances (25:20).

Ashley reflects on the heartbreaking reality that even when women take decisive action to protect themselves, the legal system often fails to recognize the imminent threats they face (25:20).

7. Statistics and Discussion on Domestic Violence

Emily and Ashley present alarming statistics to underscore the severity of domestic violence:

• Nearly three women are killed by an intimate partner every day in the U.S. (12:22).
• Women of color, particularly Black and Indigenous women, face higher rates of homicide by intimate partners (14:29).
• Globally, 140 women and girls are killed daily by an intimate partner or family member (26:45).

These statistics highlight the pervasive misogyny and systemic issues that exacerbate violence against women (27:21).

8. Societal Conditioning and Barriers to Help

The conversation shifts to societal norms that discourage women from seeking help. Emily shares insights from studies showing that many women experience worsened mental health following interactions with police after reporting abuse (28:22).

Ashley and Emily discuss the various barriers women face, including:

• Fear of not being believed or having their evidence dismissed.
• Concerns about the repercussions of involving law enforcement, such as their abuser facing arrest.
• Financial dependencies and the risk of homelessness.
• Emotional bonds and love for their abusers, making it difficult to leave (29:25).

9. Closing Thoughts and Resources

In their concluding remarks, Emily and Ashley emphasize the importance of understanding the complexities of domestic violence and the failures of support systems. They advocate for:

• Greater empathy and less judgment from society.
• Improved training and responsiveness from law enforcement.
• Resources and support systems that genuinely aid victims in escaping abusive situations.

They encourage listeners to educate themselves by engaging with podcasts like True Crime’s episode on Lauren McCluskey and documentaries such as HBO’s Every Day of My Life about Wendy Maldonado. Additionally, they mention supporting the Lauren McCluskey Foundation as a way to contribute to the cause (33:30).

Notable Quotes:

• Emily: “Even when women are trying... to write a strong female protagonist, women often come off as dumb and damsels in distress.” (03:56)
• Ashley: “Juries will nullify in these cases... that is the right of a jury.” (24:50)
• Emily: “I have to tell you. I tossed up an Instagram post today... what if I don't come back?” (32:23)
• Ashley: “Every single woman has to think about [her safety] because we would choose the bear over a man...” (32:23)

Resources Mentioned:

• True Crime Podcast: Episode on Lauren McCluskey
• Documentary: Every Day of My Life about Wendy Maldonado (available on Apple TV)
• Books:
  • The New House by Tess Dimson
  • Behind Closed Doors by B.A. Paris
  • Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn
  • The Housemaid by Freedom McFadden
  • Verity by Colleen Hoover
• Foundation: Lauren McCluskey Foundation

Final Thoughts:

Emily and Ashley conclude the episode with a heartfelt acknowledgment of the strength and resilience of women, urging listeners to support victims and advocate for systemic changes to prevent such tragedies. They reinforce the importance of male allies in recognizing and addressing the real fears and dangers women face daily.

For more content and resources, find Emily and Ashley on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Emily and Ashley's discussion on domestic thrillers, the flawed portrayal of women within the genre, and the harrowing real-life implications of domestic violence. It highlights key moments, provides insightful quotes, and offers resources for further exploration, making it valuable for both regular listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Emily]

Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley.

[Ashley]

And this is Books with youh Besties. Hi, besties. Welcome back. This week we are talking about one of our favorite genres of thriller books and we are not going to have any spoilers. You can totally listen even if you haven't read. We are talking about domestic thrillers. So what is a domestic thriller? It. It is anything that happens around the home. So a thriller book that is centered around families often. And generally we think of domestic thrillers as those that involve maybe a marital couple gone awry. So, Ashley, what are some examples of domestic thrillers that you have loved?

[Emily]

Every now and then before a podcast we do talk about. Hey, what are we going to talk about? What books? I'm going to actually take us off, quote, unquote script here because I just thought of one we didn't have on our list, and that's the New House. That's a domestic thriller. That's all the different couples and all the different houses. So I'm gonna say the New House without giving any spoilers because that book's completely about relationships. Right.

[Ashley]

Love that one. We actually have a whole episode about that.

[Emily]

We do. I know. And I. I think I could read that book over and over and over again.

[Ashley]

Yeah. We also have an episode about Behind Closed Doors by BA Paris, which is another favorite. So the New House by Tess Dimson. Behind Closed Doors by BA Paris. Those are two of our favorite books.

[Emily]

I would say a crowd favorite. And if you haven't read this, it is a must read. Would be Gone Girl.

[Ashley]

Gone Girl by Gillian Finn.

[Emily]

I feel like most people have read that, and if not, it's an absolute must read. Would you say any of the Freedom McFadden books?

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, quite a few. The Housemaid. Okay, this is. Let me just tell you a little bit about myself here. I have read almost all of the Freedom McFadden books. Couldn't tell you what any of the rest of them are about. My memory.

[Emily]

I don't think it's your memory. I think it's that. Here's my. Here's my theory because I'm a psychologist and you're not. My theory is that it was the first one we read by her and it had such an impact because it had such a massive twist that it just sticks out in a way that then you can't remember anything else she wrote, even though they are all fantastic books. So, yeah, I think that's the issue with the Housemaid is that it was the first one we read of her. So it Just had a huge impact.

[Ashley]

Yes. And I really enjoy her books from an entertainment perspective and I really like listening to them.

[Emily]

I haven't. But I love her books from an entertainment perspective. Also.

[Ashley]

Also a very controversial book, Verity by Colleen Hoover. That's a domestic thriller.

[Emily]

It absolutely is. It's also one I'm not ashamed to say I loved. So take that.

[Ashley]

I thought it was fun. I mean, I guess you and I got to that book and read it before it became so terribly love or hate. And I don't know, it was very.

[Emily]

Entertaining that we probably need to do an entire Verity episode about why people hate it and why people love it. I have ideas.

[Ashley]

Okay, fun. So let's talk a little bit of themes because we have so much to get into this episode. Listen, we are going all hard direction toward true crime here shortly because of course we're going to talk about the themes in these books and domestic violence being the primary theme. Some of my favorite thriller books are on this topic about an abusive relationship or questionably abusive relationship and sort of the events surrounding that and how a woman maybe escapes that or. Or people help the woman. Those kinds of things.

[Emily]

One of the things about domestic thrillers that is a bigger conversation, but I think we can talk a little bit about is the. Even when women are trying. Even when they are trying to write a strong female protagonist, women often come off as dumb and damsels in distress.

[Ashley]

Totally. I. This is one of my gripes. I know I say this on a lot of episodes, but with Frida McFadden's books is often I feel like the women characters are written as stupid. But we. Do you remember when we interviewed Heather Gudenkopf about Not a Sound, which was an incredible thriller and we did as a Read With Us series on Patreon. So we interviewed her for that. In that context. We. This was brought up by our member Preston, who helped interview her. And Preston kind of said that said I'm. I was really impressed with Not A Sound because the main character doesn't really act stupid and women often do in these books. And I remember us having this discussion around. Is there some truth to the way that women behave though? Because we have been so culturally conditioned to be polite that it's not that women are acting stupid, it's that in. In favor of politeness, they are denying their own instincts or their own drives or desires to get away from a sit just to seem humble and polite and appropriate like women should be in our society.

[Emily]

I love that conversation and I'm going to take us On a quick sidebar, because I had this conversation with a friend on a run who said that a gentleman came into where she works, and while she was walking him through some options he had in a retail establishment, he was touching her shoulder. Like, he kept touching her. Not in a way someone would deem inappropriate, but I'm literally not physically touching someone I don't know. And she was like, I didn't say stop, and I didn't say no, and I didn't say, that makes me uncomfortable because I didn't want to seem rude. And she was like. So instead I just stood there in like fight, flight, or fear. Didn't know what to do. But what I should have just said is that makes me uncomfortable. Can you just take your hand off my shoulder? But I didn't. And she just said, why do we. Why do we not just say that? Why are we conditioned to be more worried about being embarrassed or seen as a burden than just protecting ourselves?

[Ashley]

Totally. This is a conversation I actually have with my students pretty frequently, too. Gavin DeBacker wrote the gift of Fear. It's an excellent book about how we should be trusting our instincts more frequently. And in psychology, we talk about it from like a cognitive perspective that your mind is probably processing things unconsciously that you haven't yet processed fully in a conscious way, but that are warning you there's danger. Right? So when you see movement on the hiking trail, on the ground, you have an immediate reaction, maybe before you fully consciously process that it could be a dangerous animal. Right. Like a snake or something. So we have those, those kind of built in mechanisms. And man, I feel like I could go off on so many tangents here with psychology, like the theories behind fear and stuff. But he talks about in that book in the Gift of Fear, which we should link that book, Ashley, in this episode, that women will get into an enclosed, soundproof metal box with a man that makes them nervous, AKA an elevator, rather than being rude and saying, I'll wait for the next one. My students and I talk about that, and it's so true. We're like, don't cross the street when someone is coming toward us because that appears rude to that person, even if I feel them as a perceived threat. Right. And we want to be really careful with this. Why do you perceive them as a threat? We don't want to be using stereotypes and we have those kinds of conversations. But the reality is we are so strongly conditioned. Okay, I'm just going to give you this one little side tangent that we talk about in class. Is having pre planned responses. So my brother is Navy and he talked about that when you're flying the helicopter, you have pre planned responses for anything that goes wrong. That way you don't have to be trying to make decisions on the fly in an emergency. And I said, why don't we have those for life, right? So whenever you're going out and you're going to get onto an elevator and you're by yourself, right? And you know that you have a pre planned response if you feel uncomfortable getting onto the elevator, you immediately go, oh my gosh, I forgot my, where's my keys? And you turn around and walk away, right? You no longer have to feel like you were rude. You no longer have to draw that attention to yourself. And you've avoided what we perceive that the reason we're polite is we perceive them as a threat, right? Maybe even two that if we're rude, does that escalate the situation? So your friend in the store saying don't touch me, I'm uncomfortable with that. Then is the guy going to be like, oh, excuse me, right? So instead saying oh, excuse me, like oh, thanks for taking your hands off me. You know, I mean that's what we do to protect ourselves in that way too, right? But having those preplanned responses I think could be really helpful.

[Emily]

I've never considered that, but I have pre planned responses in different areas of my life that I just realized I had that I didn't even know. So why couldn't I have them in situations where I feel threatened?

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

I think it's just practicing them, right?

[Ashley]

It's like just having in your pocket ideas. And of course then you may be totally blindsided by the time that you feel uncomfortable with someone touching you at work, which you don't have a pre planned response for, but at least maybe you have ideas about. Like if you're walking down the street and you feel uncomfortable and you don't want to look rude, what could you do to make that situation feel better?

[Emily]

I read an article that I thought was three fantastic called the Damsel in Distress by Katherine Kennedy. It's on her website and it talked about how it seems like people are trying to write, quote unquote, stronger female protagonists, but they're just not getting there. I'm going to read you a little thing she said. She said, here's the thing. Giving Sleeping Beauty a sword and calling her a warrior princess does not make her one. Giving her some smart one liners doesn't make her a fully developed character. Writing a character who is simultaneously the strongest character and the weakest character is going to lead to something smudged and potentially annoying. How can she spend her days hanging around a tower waiting to be rescued, but also be the main character in the narrative? And she just continues to go on and on about the attempt to write stronger female characters but still just missing the mark.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I really love when authors write thrillers where women are strong in themselves. And you know what? I know I don't want to spoil. I guess this is a spoiler alert about Disney movies. Apologies, but Frozen does a really incredible job of this, of conveying the strength of women and then not needing to be saved by a man concept without it being in your face explicit. Unbelievable. It's really. That's why I keep telling you to watch it is. I think it's a super powerful message and I love that my daughter saw that.

[Emily]

I need to watch it again. Thinking about that. I've seen it and I also think we'll link some of them. I feel like we could list some books without giving spoilers where the care. The female characters really are strong and there's not a lot of feeling bad for them or feeling, I think a theme in domestic thrillers too, that's a more general theme is the amount of times we just talked about this that women do not, quote, unquote, save themselves because they don't want to make their partner look bad because in the eyes of the public, their partner is a great guy or a great whoever. And they put that ahead of taking care of themselves.

[Ashley]

Okay, fascinating. Let's go. Let's go where we're headed. Which is. Which I think is in the same vein. We're talking about women's safety. Right. But really thinking about domestic violence. So one of the things that we see in these thrillers often is the themes of domestic abuse or domestic violence. So massive, massive warnings in this episode because we are going to go all the way to all the dark places here. Ashley, you did some research on domestic violence.

[Emily]

I did. I did some research about domestic violence mainly around men killing their female partners, which tends to be the. The last step in a relationship that has experienced ongoing domestic violence. According to Sanctuary for Families, which is a New York City based nonprofit organization dedicated to aiding victims of domestic violence and their children. There was an article called let's talk about femicide October 23, 2024, last summer. So this must have been summer 2022 or 2023. New Yorkers were rattled by the devastating senseless murder of Asia Johnson. Do you remember her?

[Ashley]

I do.

[Emily]

A 20 year old victim of domestic violence who was shot while walking her three month old baby on the Upper east side. Contrary to initial speculation, this was not a random killing. A few days after the shooting, the child's father was arrested and charged with her murder. According to her mom, Asia's ex boyfriend physically abused her while pregnant with their child and continued to stalk and threaten her for months. Though shocking and infuriating, Johnson's case is sadly just one of many instances of fatal violence against women. So there were reports of how he had been abusing her well before it came to this. In the US Almost three women are killed by an intimate partner every day. I know you know that, but just hearing it, I know, I know this is going to be a little bit longer. I just think it's important to share all of this. Just as in the case of Asia Johnson, women in the US are predominantly killed by men they know and largely by intimate partners. Of all female homicides in 2018 in which the victim to offender relationship could be identified, 92% were killed by a man they knew and and 63% were killed by current husbands, boyfriends or ex husbands. These staggering statistics demonstrate the misogyny behind the violent deaths. Women are being murdered because they are women. There are a variety of factors that can increase the risk. Physically abused women who are also suffering sexual violence are more than seven times more likely than other abused women to be killed. The article goes on to talk about early signs and recognizing them. But a 2022 investigation shows that law enforcement agencies continuously ignore and dismiss red flags in domestic abuse cases due to insufficient training on identifying red flags under using lethality assessments and lack of follow through.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I think this brings up another really important topic like why don't women get help or get out? And I think what you just said brings a lot of insight into that from this article.

[Emily]

Women attempt to get help and it's that they're both not believed. There's not quote unquote evidence. They don't want their partner to end up in jail, but they want to let law enforcement know they feel like they're in danger. And it's just this cycle of cries for help and help not coming. And let's not even get into how that this is a, a, a bigger reality for black women and indigenous population, the amount that they are at risk. Men are murdering black women and girls at a rate three times higher than white women. For indigenous women and girls, the homicide rate is six times higher than for their white Counterparts. Yeah. Former partners are responsible for 94% of those homicides. I mean, that's one site with one study about how if you're a woman and you are killed, it is most likely your partner.

[Ashley]

Aren't there, aren't there the cliches? It's always the husband.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley]

Let's talk about one of the cases that's really, I think, poignant here and really amazing because we were just able to listen to an episode, a podcast yesterday. Season two of Truer Crime, hosted by Celicia Stanton, is out now. It's a podcast. Phenomenal first season. Second season just dropped with two episodes and one of those is on Lauren McCluskey. So, Ash, you want to tell us about Lauren McCleskey a little bit?

[Emily]

I can. I'm going to tell you just a little bit of higher level stuff because Celicia does an absolutely incredible job breaking it down on her episode. So Lauren McCluskey was a student at a school in Utah. She met a man named Melvin at a bar. As you do in college, you meet men. Soon after meeting him, she realized his identity was not what he had told her it was. And obviously she got a little bit scared as she did what we do and looked his name up. She found that he might not be the safest man to be around. At one point in time, her mom called campus security to say, hey, my daughter kind of needs some help. She's trying to get a car from this ex boyfriend. Do you think you guys could help her out? And Lauren repeatedly had conversations with the university police about not feeling safe. She contacted the university police about being extorted by him. After she asked him to leave her alone. She contacted the local police department. There are, let's see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. There's about a 10 day period of her asking for help and her not getting help in unbelievable detail. And then she ends up being murdered by him and he kills himself. And that's not a huge spoiler. If you Google it, that's the first thing you're going to see. But when you listen to her break it down and you see the timeline that she was asking for help multiple times a day from multiple places, campus security and the local police department and basically being told, you're fine.

[Ashley]

I was absolutely enraged. 10 to 15 minutes into listening to this, that episode. I mean, I couldn't stop listening to it. I had to hear the whole thing and how it went. But I cannot believe how hard Lauren tried to get help and how much the system failed. Her. And a big issue here is jurisdictions of law enforcement. So there's one of the 5,000 reasons that it's hard for these women to get the help that they need is not only is it not totally taken seriously, she kept getting booted back to her campus security who were not resolving the issue sufficiently, and she couldn't reach out anywhere else to get support or help because it was outside of their jurisdiction. Super frustrating. Totally not okay.

[Emily]

And it's just a bigger conversation too, about when people say, why didn't she leave? Why didn't she ask for help? Lauren asked for help no less than a dozen times. Her mom asked for help. Her friends on campus were worried about her. She was screaming from the rooftops that she didn't feel safe. And before anybody was willing to actually help her, she was murdered.

[Ashley]

Yeah, very, very disturbing and upsetting. Definitely go and, and give true crime a listen. You can listen to lots of different episodes, but listen to that one for sure, if you haven't already. For our Patreon folks, we gave you a heads up that this is our listen with us, and we posted that on social media just because it's such a powerful episode. So we know that domestic violence is really common. Thank you for sharing the statistics you shared. But I do think these stories are really important and why women don't get help. So, look, Lauren McCloskey tried to get help. She did go get help. But there are so many other reasons that women don't get out of these situations. States are in control of domestic violence laws, and it varies state by state whether or not officers are mandated to arrest when they arrive on a scene of domestic violence or if it's to their discretion. And many states have dual arrest where they, if they can't sufficiently determine who was the aggressor, if it's a fighting situation, they will arrest both parties, which means sometimes the victims of domestic violence are arrested, especially if they do anything like defend themselves, fight back, anything like that. It's really, really traumatizing. And it's traumatizing for kids to have their parent arrested if there are children in the household. So there's a lot of considerations for people around that. I'm going to tell you a story. Another true crime story.

[Emily]

Absolutely, 100% here for it.

[Ashley]

Okay, so this is a bit of an older case. It's from 2005, but it's something that I can never stop thinking about or teaching about. And that is the case of Wendy Maldonado in Southern Oregon in 2005. There's actually a really great HBO documentary that you can get on, like, Apple TV. We'll link it. It's called Every Day of My Life. And we can. We can bleep that out, right, Ash? Well, we'll have to use the bleepers twice. And the reason it's called that is because the opener of the documentary is Wendy Maldonado's 911 call. And she calls and she says, I just killed my husband. And she's saying who she is and where she is. She is not calm, but she is telling them, I just now killed my husband. And the 911 operator says, Ma'am, did your husband ever hurt you? And she says, every day of my life. This case, the police were called over and over out to their home. Wendy never pressed charges despite police coming, and they did not arrest. For whatever reason, the police would come and leave without arresting her husband, Aaron. This documentary shows the absolute depravity of this man. He abused not only Wendy horrifically for many years, but he also abused their three sons. And there's video footage, evidence of so much of what he did. And she talks about the things that he did. Why did she not want him to be arrested? Because she said, and this is like, directly from her, he'd be gone for what, two weeks, and then he'd come back and it would be worse. And also he had made very clear that he would kill her family members. And she felt very confident that he would indeed actually do that. And if you watch the documentary, you too would probably be like, oh, yes, I can see that he had the propensity to kill. He had a band where he sang songs about wanting to kill and bloody and gore and murder, kill people. And he. He fantasized about being a serial killer. He thought that would be the best possible thing. He would take her out in with a machete, out to the woods to a kill spot and lay there and play a game where he would talk about that this is where he was going to kill her. When he finally did beat her so badly and so often that she had very few of her own teeth left, he had knocked out most of her teeth multiple times. She almost died. Here is the interesting thing. She killed him. She and her son Randy, who was 18 years old, or 17, 17 or 18 at the time, decided one night while Aaron was sleeping to go in and kill him. One of them had a hammer, one of them had a hatchet. And they stood on either side of the bed and took turns bludgeoning him as quickly as possible. Hitting him in the head with a hammer and a hatchet until Wendy finally screamed, stop. And they left the room and she called 911 and said, I just killed my husband. Her greatest fear, she said when she was in the police car leaving the scene, they said they thought that maybe he survived. And she was more afraid of that than anything that was to come. She was fully prepared and okay to go to prison as long as he was dead. He did die. The three boys and the mom were all grateful. Let me just tell you something that happened here. They went to prison. Wendy pled guilty on first degree manslaughter charges and went to prison for 10 years. Her son Randy pled guilty on second degree manslaughter charges and they went to prison for five years. The criteria for self defense in legal situations is an imminent threat of danger. That's across states. Generally you have to have an imminent threat and look for good reason. We don't want people being like, well, my neighbor has told me over the years 10 times, they're going to kill me. So I went ahead and did it first. And I understand that. Right? You can't. We can't just be trigger happy and quick with picking off people who come onto our property. That's so unacceptable. But these are the cases where the jury has to sit there and look at this legal definition and go, that doesn't fit. He was asleep and you talked about it in the kitchen and then came upstairs and decided and stood over him and did this while he was sleeping and unaware. Is that self defense? Here's the thing, as we talked about on a previous episode, jury nullifications. Juries will nullify in these cases. So jury nullification is when a jury says, yes, you meet the criteria for murder. Yes, I know you did the crime, but we're cool with it. Not guilty, right? That's jury nullification. That is the right of a jury. Juries will do that in these cases, but it's a risk. Here's what happened in this case that's also very upsetting. The district attorney at the time did something very questionably ethical. I would say unethical, actually. But who? Trying to be polite. See, because I'm a woman, I have to try to be polite. He tied their plea deals together. He said, if one of you won't plead guilty, then like when, if Wendy, you say not guilty and you go take your chances and you don't get any jail time and Randy doesn't take his plea deal for five years, your son, then we're going to go ahead and put him up for 25 years. Delay. That is so unacceptable. So Wendy took a plea deal to spend 10 years in prison to save her son from a potential life sentence. They should never have been tied together. Those are completely separate. Even the judge in his, in her case said to her, this is the worst case or one of the worst cases of domestic violence I have ever seen. I have to sentence you to what you pled to. I am beholden to do that, but that's not what I believe in.

[Emily]

Basically, I watched this because you said that I should and I still forgot a lot of what you shared on this. And, and em, here's the thing. This is a woman who had evidence and years of the type of abuse that comes to most people's mind when you say domestic violence, physical abuse. She had mounds of evidence that she had been beaten. How, how are we to think that women are going to feel comfortable reporting men or their partners who are domestically violent in a way that isn't really seen maybe as a big red flag or a threat? Right, because look at what happened to her. And she had the markers of who is being completely physically assaulted and abused. So women who are experiencing gaslighting, extortion threats and nobody wants to listen to them.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And what are your resources? What are your options? Okay, so she leaves with the three kids. This is a lower income family. Where's she gonna go? What is she gonna do? Go be homeless and that's fine. But then he said he'd track down and kill her family. Okay, so she puts her entire family and network into witness pro protection together. It's not realistic. It's not realistic. And guess what? Sometimes those aren't empty threats. People are violent enough. Just think about that. Every single day, three women are killed in America in.

[Emily]

In the United States. I can tell you the statistics on worldwide what it is. That's just United States.

[Ashley]

Tell us what? Globally.

[Emily]

So according to an article in the Associated Press in November of 2024, so very recently by Edith Lederer, the deadliest place for women is at home. 140 women and girls on average are killed by an intimate partner or family member per day in the last year. Per day, an intimate partner or family member was responsible for the deaths of 51,100 women in 2023, an increase from 48,000 in 2022.

[Ashley]

Wow.

[Emily]

51,000 women and girls. Can I tell you something? While you were talking about the documentary, which everyone needs to watch, I was thinking about how recently, within the last Few weeks there was a man who killed his wife, killed himself. And the story was that the family was mortified because they held a joint funeral. How are we paying this woman respect? But I'll link that. Here's the bigger picture. I was trying to look that up. So I knew the names and it didn't come up. But did you know it came up. Here are 1234 five different links to story from December 2024 to today of men killing their intimate partners. Five different in the last month.

[Ashley]

Isn't that scary? Isn't that scary? I know we've talked about this too, and I always say this, but I look with a critical eye at the people around me because if this is happening everywhere, you know, people where this is happening behind closed doors, not the murder part, but the abuse and the escalation and it's just, it's really terrifying.

[Emily]

It's also one of those. I'm going to take us back to uncomfortable conversations because I think you and I have talked about without any names, how there are people in our circles that we think there's something that just feels not safe or right about their situation. But I'm, I don't ask. And again, that's me being polite. What if I don't ask and then something happens? And I think, why didn't I ask her if she was okay? But it's an odd question to ask someone if there's not something going on. So back to why am I being polite instead of just being like, hey, do you feel safe at home? There was an article back to why women don't talk to police. There was a study done of 2,000 women in England and 70% of the women reported that their mental health was worse as a result of their interaction with the police when they tried to report a rape or a domestic violence incident. That their interaction with 75% of them said their mental health was worse after telling police that they had been assaulted and having to deal with that side of it. Also that they were re victimized. 75%. Yeah.

[Ashley]

Yeah. There's so many reasons why women are stuck in these relationships. They have children with them to consider. They may be isolated from jobs or family or friends. They, their entire circle is surrounded with this person wrapped up in this person. They love this person. They love them. They don't have financial means to leave or they aren't safe to leave. These are all valid reasons why people stay. And we're so judgmental as a society about it. We're so judg. Oh, just Leave. Anyone looking from the outside would be like, don't ever communicate with that person again. Like, just get them out of your life. Who cares? And can you imagine having that level of toxicity that you can't just decide not to see them again? That's not an option for you to just say, well, I'll just never see them again.

[Emily]

Here's the thing about the Lauren McCluskey episode is that I think the scariest part of it is that she did everything right. She did what we're saying women don't do. She asked for help, she had evidence, she was trying to leave. She did everything that judgmental people say, well, why didn't you do that? She did literally every step you could possibly take to try to remain safe. So how are we to think that a woman with children can, can just up and leave her home when somebody who was just trying to protect herself and did everything right was still murdered?

[Ashley]

Yep, I know Lauren McCluskey. And then thinking about Wendy Maldonado, what she did for her children, she did that for her children and her son did that for his brothers and himself and his mom and the gift that that is for them to live, you know, the 12 year old, many years later in an article, he was 12 at the time, he said he didn't think he would make it to 14 because of the way his father was so abusive. He gets to live a life. I hope that Wendy Maldonado and her three sons are living a fantastic, quiet life. Not that I condone murder, but she says something like, I was caught in a bear trap and I chewed off my own arm to get out. Something like that, some kind of metaphor like that. And it's so poignant. It's so poignant. Anyway, I just think about these women and their, their lack of options. Listen, I was going to tell you. I. I have a husband who is a really great man and you have a husband who's a really great man. And we are so lucky. We're so fortunate and there are really, really wonderful men out there. But this made me laugh on the Internet. Have you seen this? Men? If men didn't exist, who would protect you? Women. Protect us from who?

[Emily]

Yep.

[Ashley]

So I love when men can accept that they have made themselves dangerous to women and that women do pick the bear instead of being alone in the woods with a man. Because of that, those experiences, and because three women a day in the United States are murdered a day, a day, that's 21 women a week are murdered by their partners.

[Emily]

I have to tell you. I tossed up an Instagram post today. Every day when I leave for a run, I look in my ring camera and I tell my kids I love them or I do something silly. I'll probably cry telling this and I do it because what if I don't come back? I want the last thing my kids to see, like literally see is me being silly and me saying I love them. And I bet you there is not a man that does that. There might be a man who does it just because he wants to be silly and tell his kids. But I don't think most men think, am I safe going for a run? And I think every single woman has to think about that because we would choose the bear over a man because we just don't know what might happen when we're out there. Right?

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily]

And the men, I think, like our husbands and many of you out there who also understand why we say we really do have to think it's all men. It feels really nice to have male allies like that who understand our fear is real and there are reasons for it. This has been a really uplifting, nice episode.

[Ashley]

Super fun. Well, everyone should go and listen. Listen to the podcast True or crime episode Lauren McCluskey, fabulous podcast, incredible podcast host. And then also go and find Every Effing day of my life about Wendy Maldonado.

[Emily]

Yep, absolutely worth it. And we will also link the Lauren McCluskey Foundation. We'll link that. So click on it, read about it, see what it's about, and if you have it in your resources, maybe donate if you can. All right, thanks, guys.

[Ashley]

Bye.

[Emily]

Thanks for listening.

[Ashley]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

[Emily]

Happy reading.