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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Emily.
- [00:03]
B
I'm Ashley.
- [00:04]
A
And this is Books with youh Besties.
- [00:08]
B
Hop right in with Emily and I as we chat with Heather Vassar, one of our dear, dear friends and original creepy book club members.
- [00:17]
A
Okay, besties, today, besties, we have with us Heather Vassar, who is a dear friend of ours and of the whole book club. Uh, she was one of the original members of our very first retreat. There were only five of us, and Heather was one and has come to every retreat since and has become a real confidant and dear friend of ours. Heather has each now. Do you have a job, Heather?
- [00:44]
C
I do have a job.
- [00:45]
A
Oh, okay. Would you like to tell us about that?
- [00:48]
C
Most days. Most days, yeah. Officially or just unofficially maybe? You know, the whole.
- [00:55]
A
The whole vice president title.
- [00:58]
C
Yeah. So I am senior vice president of operations for Empire, which is an independent. The number one independent record label, so.
- [01:06]
A
And you're based out of Nashville right now?
- [01:09]
C
Based out of Nashville, Yeah. I mean, I've been in Nashville 15 years, which is wild. I just. I was answering some questions the other day and been in Nashville 15 years. Been in the music industry 15 years, been at a label 11. So I've always. Most of my career has been on the label side, so. Cool. Yeah.
- [01:29]
A
And where are you from, Heather?
- [01:32]
C
Originally? West Texas.
- [01:35]
A
I'm gonna ask questions like, I've never met you the whole time because we're novice. We're novice podcasters, so this is what we do. Just like random on the fly, try to get out.
- [01:46]
C
I like it.
- [01:46]
A
How to podcast.
- [01:47]
C
Yeah, you do a better job than I do, that's for sure. I've only done a couple of these, so I'm certainly no host. Born and raised in West Texas. Did my undergrad in Lubbock at Texas Tech, and then right out of undergrad, I moved to Nashville, so got here as soon as I could. I did live in Dallas for a couple years in between that time and now, but to be unspoken of, because I ran an accounting firm and almost killed my soul. And I was like, no, I've got to get back into music. I'm way too creative for this. I was like, this is. Accounting is not for me, so.
- [02:24]
B
And we know you well enough to know you will not brag on yourself. So also tell us about being an athlete, because that's a big deal.
- [02:32]
C
Oh, yeah. I mean, I was an athlete my whole. My whole life, you know, like. And I always played up. I have an older sister, she's just a year older, and so I always played up A division with her. And, um, then went to undergrad, played softball there my freshman year. And then I was like, ooh, females don't make really any money in sports. I certainly didn't at that time. And that was also the year. This will tell you everything about me is that that was the year they took it out of the Olympics. And I was like, well, what do I hope for now? And so I quit after my freshman year of college because I was like, I don't know what. There's not really a professional side. There's now not the Olympics. I had been training. I'd been doing every Summer Olympics off season with, like, the team, my pitcher and I. And so when that. When they took that out because the USA team was so good, I. It just felt like, what am I reaching for? What am I. Why am I getting up at four in the morning to work out? And I didn't like. I didn't even like to work out, which is funny now. But so, yeah, so that's when I had already been doing music a little bit, just playing. But as soon as I quit, I was only taking 13 hours of school, and I was like, man, what am I going to do with all this time? And so that's when I picked back up playing, because I was in a band in high school, a church band, leading worship in high school. And so that's an added layer. I don't know if y'all even knew that. But, yeah, I was in a band in high school, led worship, and then quit, obviously, when I graduated, went to college and was still playing some. And. But then once I quit softball, then I picked, like, guitar and piano and stuff back up. And then I joined a band in college, played in college, and we were like a rock. I mean, we did like, cover songs of, like, it's funny, the song that's trending Right now on TikTok, the Maps song. Like, I played drums at a concert to that song, and I'm, like, looking for footage. I even hit the school up. I was like, can I have this? This will go viral on TikTok. But they haven't responded, so we'll. We'll wait to hear back from them. But. But, yeah, so then I picked music up and I was like, this is what I want to do. And I had no idea there was a music business. I just knew. I was like, music is what I want to do. I'm going to play, I'm going to write. I didn't want to sing, but everybody was. I was writing Songs. People were like, well, you have to sing them. Who's going to hear your song? So that's what brought me to Nashville.
- [04:59]
B
What was the name of your band at church? Are you in la?
- [05:04]
C
No, I got back yesterday. I. I was in la. Oh, my God. Last week was absolutely insanity of my travel schedule. But I flew to San Francisco last Sunday, presented my year end report. Monday, flew to la. Monday night, was there Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, flew to Nashville Wednesday night. The entire flight back, a lady was throwing up in first class. Yeah, throwing up. I had leadership Nashville all day Thursday, 7am to 8pm Took some friends and Adam's mom to Pentatonix Thursday night, got home, like, at 11, woke up and packed and flew out Friday back to LA and then flew back yesterday.
- [05:47]
A
Yeah.
- [05:47]
B
So I thought about you because there is some. There was some study that just came out that's like, there are people who only need three hours of sleep a night. And I was like, heather's one of those people. I'm like, I don't. Otherwise you'd be dead. I'm like, she ha. She has to be one of those people.
- [06:05]
C
I mean, I think I. I can. Here's. Here's what I know. Like, I. I can go weeks with, like, four, four and a half. And I'm like, okay, like, I can do that, but I will need a good eight every now and then. Like, but my body knows. It's like, now's the time. And I'm like, but it'll wait till I get home. Like, it'll wait. Like, it'll wait until this weekend. I have something every night, like, until Saturday night. And then, like, Sunday, I'll be like, dead. Cause my body knows of, like, this is your only day. You don't have anything. And so I'll just be like, so. Yeah. I mean, I 0 out of 10 recommend that last week's schedule, but at least I didn't take any red eyes or. Or anything. So. But I. I think I'm just so used to it. People are like, oh, my gosh. And I'm like, what does it matter if I'm sitting on a plane for three and a half hours or sitting at a desk? Like, what does that matter? Like, I don't. Unless the lady behind me is throwing up the whole slide. And then that really matters.
- [07:04]
A
Do you put your phone on do do not disturb ever so that you don't get woken up?
- [07:09]
C
Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My phone is, like, as disciplined as I am on, like, within work, that's as disciplined as like my phone is on like it. The time like 5am to 9am it's like no one can. No one can reach me. It's on personal time. That is like my time. And so. And I. I mean I have a couple pass throughs every now and then and so. But yeah, but for the most part, I mean it does. And then at night it kicks on like 11pm because you respond to my.
- [07:43]
A
Texts at midnight and you respond to my text at 4am it's not right not to like dive into too deep too fast, but do you think that being so busy and traveling so much keeps your mental health better? Is it good for your mental health?
- [08:07]
C
I think it's perspective. I think right now I'm getting the best of both worlds.
- [08:11]
A
Right.
- [08:12]
C
But I'm of being able to be like when it was so hot in Nashville in the summer, I happened to be in LA for a week. Right. For something. And so then I like got away from like the horrendous humidity here for that week. But I think because of what I'm doing, it's not like, oh, I'm just like hanging out on vacation in each city. So I'm like. Because I'm so busy in each city that I just think like I enjoy that and I enjoy what I do. So it like it's more fun than anything now. I do hit like a wall of like, okay, I need to be around no one and nothing and like decompress and I. But I'm really good about like. I feel like I'm really diligent to do that. People just don't see that because I don't post that part of it. Right. You know, like I just.
- [08:58]
A
You are a mover a lot.
- [09:00]
C
I don't know.
- [09:00]
A
I have a. Yeah, I definitely know for myself times where I'm less busy or I have more time to choose what to do. Even like, even if I have a lot to do, but I have more time to choose. I am not as well know that.
- [09:18]
C
I was gonna say it's. I'm almost worse.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah.
- [09:22]
C
If I'm in a spot too long now that I'm uncomfortable. And so I'm like, ooh. I. And it doesn't matter where, which, which city it is. Like if I'm like, if I'm in Nashville, I'm like, oh. I'm like, I. And I have a friend that she travels just as much as I do. She's also in the business and like he. He texts me and she's LA based but she kind of does the same thing and she texts me and she was like, I've got to get out of my house. I'm such a homebody. I'm. And I was like, you've been home not even 24 hours. Like, I don't think that qualifies as homebody.
- [09:54]
A
Like, I don't think so.
- [09:56]
C
I totally corrected her. I was like, no, no, no, no. That's not being a homebody. Like, that's just you're. You just happen to be home for 20. And so literally we met for drinks because she was like, I have to get out of my house. And I was like, oh my God. But so that I think that, like the repetition of that when I don't have that and I just have. And it's just me and I'm sitting in silence or whatever. I'm like, oh, I'm. I'm lonely. Oh, I'm like, you know what? Whatever that feeling is, then I'm like, oh, I need to do something, you know? So I actually, I think it's worse just because I'm on the move so much, but my ears never look like this, so I'm just feel like I'm just trying to like, enjoy it while it's this season, you know. Another layer. Another layer, folks. Another layer.
- [10:39]
B
As you talked about traveling mental health, I do think a piece of it, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are very routine based and you keep your routine wherever you travel, right? So that is that a piece of keeping your mental health just in check.
- [10:51]
C
Oh, my word. I, I'm so disciplined. I'm so strict with even what I eat, what I drink, what I don't eat, eat or drink, right? Like, I don't eat what the plane serves. I don't like, even like the smallest of things. And it's funny because I was talking to a. Another guy in the business and we, you know, like, I started doing IVs once a month and sometimes I'll get them more of like just fluids and vitamins. And I have no idea if that's placebo effect. But for me, I'm like, if in, if anything, it helps me feel better. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do that. So yeah, I'm, I'm very strict within that. But I also, I get up every morning, it doesn't matter what city I'm in, and I work out. Like, it doesn't matter. I move my body some capacity and so keeping that same. Like, I even have, like, even my clothes, I have Like a travel capsule. It's like, you've probably seen me wear the. Even the same clothes because it's not like, regimented. So I think I err too far on the other side. But for me, it's like, it's the same hotels or, you know, condos. It's the same. Like, there's been a couple times this year that I've stayed at like, and like a different hotel. And like, I came back with a sore throat and I was like, that's why.
- [11:59]
A
Like, that's.
- [11:59]
C
I have no idea if that's the case, but I was like, I'm gonna get a sore throat. The sheets were scrat. I was like, this is so. But that's the only, like the, the, the consistency of even the same, like, atmosphere is so important, you know, Like, I'm at this. I'm in the same sky clubs. I'm in the same. Like, it's ridiculous. But yeah, I don't, I don't know how you survive traveling that much and not have some sort of, like, routine. Like, I mean, I just couldn't. I couldn't.
- [12:28]
A
So let's get into religion a little bit. Do. Do you mind?
- [12:32]
C
No, please.
- [12:33]
A
Okay. So you. You grew up very religious, you grew up Christian, very.
- [12:37]
C
Grew up Southern Baptist in an ultra conservative family and have since fully deconstructed. I think that's, you know, the popular term now. But yeah, I. I struggled with it for such a long time. Um, and so I didn't know how to reconcile who. Who I was and who I knew I was at my core within then what I was taught within the church. And so everything that I had been taught of love and acceptance and all of that was also hindered then with who I knew at my core of being queer and being lesbian. And so I just, I. For a long time, I wrestled with that and so didn't know what to do with the church or with religion. And it wasn't until I got to Nashville on my own that I like, you know, started really kind of looking myself in the mirror and going like, what. What do I even believe? How do I. Is this what I do believe? And is it? And I'm still within that, right? I'm very much within the process of like, I have no idea. I do not fucking know. But I'm also now okay with like, being okay with not knowing. So that feels like the safest spot for me is that uncertainty in terms is I'm better and happier and more fulfilled than I've ever been. I'm More me than I've ever been. And at the same time, like, that's, I'm not asking you to agree with me, but just for love and respect and to have that. And so that's kind of continued to be the boundary that I set of like, that's, I will require that, you know, and, and will leave if that's not the, the, you know, sentiment.
- [14:17]
B
That has to be hard. And that had to take a lot of work. Right?
- [14:23]
C
Lots and lots of therapy. Lots and lots of therapy. I mean, as you guys, as you guys know. But yeah, I, I make the joke I went to Bali in 2018. I make the joke that I'm so stubborn I had to fly all the way around the world to find a piece of myself. Because that was sort of the tipping point. A little bit of like, that is how stubborn and strong headed like that I am. Of like, I had to completely remove any sort of comfort then to enter into a completely different world and realize of like, oh, these are some of the most spiritual, sacred human beings that I've ever met just because they were born into this world. Like, why does that, what does that make me born into this one? Like, I'm no better than that. Right? Or. And so it was such a great kind of, you know, opening of that, of that process to then start that sort of unraveling in a sense of unraveling of beliefs, but also kind of a welcoming my, myself and welcoming in of like, that authenticity. Because I wasn't living authentically then. I mean, it was, I was a shell of a human and like, just, you know, trying to figure out of like, where does religion fit in? Where does my family fit in? Knowing of like, hey, I knew that I would lose that, that relationship and I knew that I would lose a lot of that as I was walking in authenticity. So, yeah, it took me going all the way around the world, but I'll do it again and again for sure.
- [15:51]
A
Oh, I just think travel can be such an important way to reduce our ethnocentrism, whether that's related to just our understanding of being American or our religious beliefs based on her life as Americans. And I, I love that you cite that and I wish that travel was more accessible for everybody.
- [16:10]
C
Oh, I, I can remember being really young and going like, oh, I'm going to live in Australia. I'm going to live. I just, I knew in my core that there was something bigger out there, that the, the world was big. And it certainly was even a privilege to even know or even feel that that world was accessible, like you said. And so I, I, it was never a question. I was always going to figure it out. I mean, when I quit playing, so calling my parents was like, I'm quitting undergrad. I don't need this business degree. What am I going to do with that? I'm moving to Australia. Like, and for some reason, it was always Australia. And I've yet, actually, that's one place I've never been yet. But it was, it's been from early on that I was just like, I wanted to see the world because I'm like, I want to know. I want to know what they eat. I want to know what it smells like. I want to know what like is so, like, what drives them and what. And so, yeah, I've traveled. I mean, I was the first one in my family to leave the country, And I was 17, you know, I mean, it was a mission trip, but it was just like me and my, my parents, you know, thankfully let me go, but it worked, you know, so then I'm so from then, I've, I've, my goal has been to just leave the country one, as often as I can, but at least once a year, twice a year of like. But yeah, I've been super fortunate to be able to do that. And then I studied abroad and grad school, but that was by, also by choice, because I was like, show me everything. Just be for that reason alone, because I grew up in such a small town, everything looks, feels the same, you know, and knowing in my core of, like, I, I don't know that I belong here. I don't, I don't think I belong here because this doesn't feel right. And I don't look or sound or, you know, move in the same way. And so finding a world that I fit in within, how I move is, has been the most rewarding, I would say.
- [18:04]
A
Two, you know, that must have really been exacerbated by growing up somewhere very small, very sheltered, very conservative, and in a family that, you know, valued conservative Christian values so explicitly and then not fitting, not fitting that mold. And so if you had been born somewhere else, like Ashland, Oregon, a very blue place in a very blue state with, you know, a high population of LGBTQ folks, that may have felt really different. So I, I, I'm just really impressed with you that you've sought out what you needed to bring yourself peace and be your true self.
- [18:42]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's funny that I landed in the south still, you know, in some capacity as well. But yeah, I just, I don't know. And I. For a long time I kind of chalked it up to just being like, very wonderlust. And so I was just like, I was fascinated. I'm fascinated with accents even though I can't do them. And like, I'm fat, you know, so there was just a, an infatuation with it that I was like, I just want to know. I want to what? I want to know what that feels like to be within that world. And so, and because of that, I think it is be definitely more. That drive was even stronger when I was, you know, not walking within, like, you know, who, who I, you know, was authentically so. And I was like, get me outta here. Give me, get me out of here to see. Like, like, to me, I mean, it was probably just selfish. Honestly, it was selfish that I was just like, I'm not crazy, right? I feel this and I'm not crazy. But I don't know, I think maybe I still am and I just found different people to, to affirm that crazy. Maybe like you two.
- [19:49]
B
Here to confirm you are crazy, but you found out.
- [19:53]
C
Yeah, just.
- [19:54]
B
Back to travel and then a quick question about the music industry. It's never lost on me that Emily and I met and became best friends on Semester at Sea. And I really think part of our very quick, intense connection was like, oh my God, we are traveling the world together as 20 year olds because travel just opens up your eyes to so much and you are learning so much. So I always think, oh my gosh, we formed this friendship while navigating, traveling through all of these countries because that's just the best way to grow and figure out who the hell you are.
- [20:28]
C
Yeah, I want, I think too, especially the non English speaking ones as well. I can remember even those that I studied when, I mean, I studied in Poland. And like, you're looking at the train map even like, you know, I'm standing there with my like, colleagues I was, you know, of who I'm in grad school with, and we're like, there's 13 consonants in a row and you're just like, okay, C. All right, all right. Y. Oh, okay. Z. Okay, W. You know, you know, so I think there's even like when you, when you struggle like that with people, you're just like, yeah. And you also have to laugh at it because you're like, you know, missing. There's so much, so many layers to travel of, like, and I do feel so fortunate that I've been able to do as much As I have because I think like, I don't have of anxiety or stress over it, you know, missing connections and flights and because I'm just like, it's kind of. Especially when I'm doing it for vacation, it just ends up being just a part of the experience. And so that's always the goal of like, this is part of the experience now. You know, I don't want somebody puking behind me, like on my last couple flights, but that I could do without that part of it. But, you know, overall, I think it's just, I. You learn a lot about people, you learn a lot about yourself. And I think you learn a lot about just like one another, who you're with, of how, how you even navigate missed connections, delayed flights, you know, sleeping in airports, like all of it.
- [21:53]
B
So do you think you're moving to Nashville, getting back into the music industry? Deciding, I'm not doing this accounting bullshit.
- [22:02]
C
I'm going full on music.
- [22:04]
B
That then surrounding yourself with artists who, at least from my perspective, tend to live more authentically made you really be like, oh, wow, this is. I want to lean into this.
- [22:16]
C
That's a good question. Probably, probably a little of both, right? So much of what I do now is I, I mean, I'm the one encouraging artists to be authentic, right? And even before, before I came out, which I always say, like, oh, I welcomed in because I hate, like, you know, I always had such a hard time with like the term coming out, especially early on. Cause I was like, I don't know why this has to be a thing, you know, but so I, I, even when I, you know, you know, went public socially and, and I just said, you know, welcome in. Welcome to this other piece of me that's always been there, but I haven't been public about it. And so, but I think because of that, because of there was an accountability because I was pressing on that artist and the creatives to like, art has to be authentic. And so especially within music because fans and listeners know they can tell when it's, when it's not authentic. And right now, authenticity is what is really working right across the board. And so, and I mean working as in like fans can tell when it's not, right? So within that, I think there was just an accountability of like, here I am pushing on them of like, show up, be honest, be authentic, like, write your most vulnerable work and then I'm on the other side and I'm like, but I wasn't doing that. And so it's probably just subconsciously I Don't know that it was really conscious, except that there was definitely, like, there was starting to be this, like, rub of, like, I just wanted to be who I was and that not be a thing, you know?
- [23:45]
A
So probably we move on to another important topic.
- [23:50]
B
Please.
- [23:51]
A
Probably one of the most important topics.
- [23:54]
C
Yes. I can't wait.
- [23:55]
A
Maybe the most. Okay.
- [23:57]
C
Okay.
- [23:58]
A
What are you reading?
- [24:00]
C
Oh, I knew you would ask me. So it's funny. I had to think about it because the whole running joke was that I don't read.
- [24:10]
A
I know.
- [24:10]
C
The funny part is I probably may. I probably read the most books I ever have last year. I just don't read creepy books. And so I prefer to sleep. I don't know how y'all do it. You know that, but it's funny. I'll pull up. I am an audible, like, 99.9 percenter. Like, I will. I. There's very few actual books that I have.
- [24:34]
A
Heather. Audible counts. You can read with your eyeballs or your ears. It's fine with us.
- [24:41]
C
Well, what I. What I say, I. I actually, in undergrad, our, like, I had a professor that we had to take this test of. What kind of, like, learner are you? And across the board, which makes so much sense of even being in music now is. And how, like, I trust my ears over everything. Everything. Like, if I hear a song, like, I'm like that. My ears are like the golden ticket to my career. So I'm like, well, no wonder that makes sense. Like, that's how I learn. I have to listen. Because you could hand me a book. You can hand me a textbook. I never even bought my textbooks in school because I was like, I won't understand if I'm just reading with my eyeballs. Like, my eyeballs do not compute. But I knew I could go to class and just sit in class and hear the professor and I would pass. So that's what I did. I was like, I could at least get a B just sitting in class. And that was good enough for me. I was like, I'm not here for all A's. I'm. I'm going to pull up my audible. I always have five or so books going at a time. I'm never a one book person. Like, I'm very mood driven. I'm very, like, what I. You know, if I feel something of like, what. What do I want to read? So on the flight back, I was listening to Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell. So that's one of them I have going right now. You're the one You've been waiting for the Richard Schwartz, like, book, the Missing Jesus, Marianne Williamson and Lucinda Berry. Perfect Child.
- [26:13]
B
I'm out at it.
- [26:14]
C
I am being so great. Thank you for that. Thank you for that acknowledgement.
- [26:19]
A
Lucinda Berry is not a gentle author.
- [26:23]
C
I started with some easier ones, but I'm making my way through and. And ever. You. You guys talk about this book all the time, you know, so it's her most recommended. So I'm like, okay, I'll add it. But I still have 7 hours and 49 minutes. And I've been working on it for a while now, so I'm. I'm taking it. I'm taking it a step at a time. But. But yeah. And then the last one's the color water. James McBride. So I try and have a very, like, diverse listening, but it is because I just. I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna feel like at any point of time of what I want to kind of digest.
- [27:01]
A
So that makes sense. You are being brave now. You didn't read Appetite for Innocence, right, By Lucinda Berry?
- [27:07]
C
No.
- [27:07]
A
Okay. Because that's my favorite of hers that I've read. But you're, like, absolutely not allowed to read it.
- [27:13]
C
Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's good. If I make it through all of the other ones, which I plan to. That will be the very last one. But, like, it's even then.
- [27:23]
A
It's just not on the list for you. Heather, we're gonna ban. For you.
- [27:27]
C
Okay. Okay. I'm gonna. I need to be in one of Yalls houses so that you can hold me at night. Like, that's my only requirement. I'm like. I just need. I need to be able to be.
- [27:36]
A
Held maybe for months. Honestly, maybe for months.
- [27:40]
C
Okay. Okay, noted. I'll be here and block off in time. Yeah, Like, I. I don't know. I just prefer to sleep. I don't need any more. I don't know how you do it. I just don't need any more angst added to my life. I operate at such a high angst level, anxiety level, anyways, that I'm like, so. No, but I appreciate you acknowledging that. I'm really trying.
- [28:06]
A
So listen, we don't say that it's smart to read these books. We're not saying that we are mentally healthy when we read.
- [28:15]
C
You have a brave. You have a brave crew. I'll say that the fact that the entire book club has been based around that and thriving is. Tells me a lot about your. The rest of the book club.
- [28:27]
A
So well, it is interesting. I will say I am not a person, Ashley, are you. I am not a person who turns on true crime or reads a thriller book as relaxation. Exactly. Like, it doesn't make me calmer. Which I don't know if you know this, Ashley, does it make you calmer when you read these things?
- [28:46]
B
Absolutely not.
- [28:48]
A
Yeah. Okay, so that's who we need to look out for at the retreat, is the people who report that it makes them calmer. Because, you know, if you give people with antisocial personality disorder, which is like a psychopath or a sociopath, they can be those right from that. So if you give a person with antisocial personality disorder a picture of mutilations, they have done this. I'm going to give you a little nightmare right now. Pictures of mutilations. They'll take a baseline of like physiological responses and they find that people who do don't have antisocial personality disorder. Like normal populations absolutely have a strong physiological reaction to pictures of mutilations. Yeah, psychopaths calm. It calms them. So the people we have to worry about are the people who say, well, when I'm getting all up, wound up, I just watch somebody get, you know, cut to pieces and then I feel bad.
- [29:47]
C
That's red flag.
- [29:49]
A
That's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:53]
C
No, I just, I don't know. I mean, I think as, as long as I've known you guys, I'm just like, I know I'm the wimp of the, of the book club of like, I just, I try not to live in that because I think too, I, I, I end up like, I end up taking it on. And I don't think I'm a high empath by any means. It's certainly not any sort of test that I've taken. But for some reason I end up just living in that and you know, that ends up happening when I do sleep, that ends up happening in my dreams and I'm like, I, I don't need that to happen and reoccur there. So I take, I, it's small dosage.
- [30:33]
B
We all know I live in like La La land and I think nothing bad could ever happen to me personally.
- [30:39]
A
Right.
- [30:39]
B
So I think reading part of me reading these like, thriller, true crime things is that it's so, so far from my everyday experience. It just is fun to let my, my brain go there and it's not relaxing, but it's like, oh, this is so far from what I'm experiencing. I, I just take. Joy is not the right word, but I think that's a part of why I like reading them. I don't like reading self care for the same reason. I don't want to think about myself and what's wrong. I don't want to go there. I just want a distraction. That's what it is for me. These books are from my everyday grind.
- [31:16]
C
See, and I think you, you guys have definitely opened. I, I had never read for like pleasure, right? Of like it was ever really growing up. It's always been like for a purpose, right? It's like, I'm gonna read this book because it's gonna make me better. I'm gonna read this book because it's gonna make me smarter. I'm gonna read this book because it's gonna, you know, like there was always a purpose behind it. It was never of like, because I just enjoy it or because I like the storyline. I didn't. It was. It had never really like, I don't know, for some reason registered as like, oh, just read this to enjoy it. Or like you said to like, it's so far from the world that you live in. You know, I think I'm just a skeptic at heart. And so I assumed the worst 99% of the time of like, you know, I'm always sort of like, I'm like, where the exits? And like, you know, you would, you would think I've lived some of these books when I haven't. But like, I'm like, no, I don't need that because I'm already watching my six, you know, with whatever I'm doing. So I'm like, I'm like, no, I'm certain. You know, I always made the joke I'd get kidnapped, but then they would for sure bring me back. But it's like, I know the plan, you know, it's like I'm prepared but you know, as much as you think you can be. But yeah, it wasn't until honestly even like the book club of like as a non reader of the book club participant, you know, I was like, oh, that's fun. Like they just, they read fun books and they talk about them, you know, so. But it's also like I've had to learn like I could just like work and like, just be a workaholic. And I've had to learn of like balancing like play within that of like. And I think it makes it hard. Like my lines are blurred so drastically because so much of my work people are like, that's fun, right? And so it's like, I'm I work in entertainment, so, yes, that is fun. Ever. What? That's what everybody else does for fun, right? And so it seems like, like, that is, like, it's all fun. And so. But I have to actually, I'm like, oh, I can just, like, relax, or, like, I can read this just for fun, not to actually gain some sort of knowledge from it.
- [33:32]
A
I'll just, I'll just say for our listeners that it's funny, because when you came to the first book club retreat, it was not even to be engaged with the retreat, you were just supporting one of the members. So there were only four of us, Ashley and I included, and two other folks who read the books. And you literally tried to not hang out with us. Like, you were gonna do your own thing. You. Like, I'm not part of this. I don't want to be.
- [33:58]
C
Yeah, I, I am not. I didn't, I didn't want to impose. And I'm like, this is not my thing. I will continue working. I will sit on the complete opposite side of the pool. Like, I was like, I don't know who these crazies are. Like, you know, I'm gonna be elsewhere.
- [34:17]
A
Isn't that funny? And now Ashley and I absolutely adopted you. We were like, nope, that's not how this works. And now, you, Honor, you've come to every retreat. You're mandatory guests. You stay with us. It's all. You are our biggest cheerleader and our biggest helper. It's amazing. You're wonderful.
- [34:36]
C
I mean, well, I mean, for me, I'm just, I enjoy you guys. And, like, I just love, like, watching and getting to know. And, like, I know how hard it is to not only start a business, but then run a business and how much it takes, even on the back end. And so, you know, now I'm just like, that, well, I made it this far, and you guys have let me stay. You know, I'm like, I've got you fooled. Like, you know, I keep getting, I keep getting the invite. And so I'm like, yeah, I'll come. You know, so I, I, I will attend as long as you let me, you know, and so.
- [35:06]
A
Yeah, well, we're a little bit upset with you right now. We'll see if you get invited for next year. We know you're coming in February. We're not sure if you're going to get invited because you have to leave early for some dumb show or something.
- [35:21]
C
I mean, it's. What. It's probably the only reason that I would leave. It's the only. You know, I. It's. It is the Grammys. Like, I don't. I don't know. I feel like everybody else would leave for that, but it's. It would be the only reason that I would leave. So just. So.
- [35:37]
A
No, I'm just. I'm just kidding. We would insist. You have to go, but. But selfishly, we're like, oh, we're gonna be so lost all day on Saturday. Mother's not here. We don't know what to do.
- [35:51]
C
Yeah. How I ended up becoming the, you know, auxiliary, you know, get. And the. I. I'm here for it. You know, the. The table, the, you know, the name tag.
- [36:03]
A
Did we.
- [36:03]
C
I'll do any of it.
- [36:04]
A
Did we tell you that we hired an event planner?
- [36:08]
C
No.
- [36:09]
A
Yeah. And thank Great. The Lord that we did, because she's amazing and we knew nothing of what we were doing. As it turns out, she's like, yeah, so this is completely not a real thing. Like, so we have somebody and she's on the ground in Scottsdale. She lives nearby.
- [36:30]
C
Oh, perfect.
- [36:31]
A
She is the sister in law of a good girlfriend of mine here. And I was like, talking about the retreat planning, and she's like, well, Lauren's not working right now, and this is what she does. Do you want to call her? And I was. We were like, yes. Immediately, yes.
- [36:46]
C
Yeah. Well, hopefully that takes off 90% of your plate of all of those small things. At least. I have to not think about it. Like, that's what I realized.
- [36:56]
B
I mean, I do.
- [36:57]
C
We do a lot of events, and I'm like, just having somebody to organize, then what. What then you need to go through is so helpful. Like, it's like, oh, tell me what I don't know.
- [37:08]
A
Like, yeah, and we've made. We made so many mistakes in the last couple of years, and luckily we got away with them because they weren't bad enough to, like, negatively impact our guests. But, yeah, they're the kind of things that I'm like, that we could really. Did you hear about that? What was that book retreat called in Denver? Readers take something. And it was absolute disaster. And people were coming out being like, there was no. It wasn't safe. There wasn't disability accommodations. There wasn't. The authors didn't know their schedules. And I'm like, we have to learn that and make sure we are dialed in.
- [37:44]
C
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny with the events that, like, we throw. I. I actually hate throwing events. It's probably like, I. It. It's not my strong suit. It's so stressful for me. I'm like, nobody's gonna show up. Nobody's going to attend. Like, none of it's gonna go right. And so I'm always the advocate to hire like somebody just so that you have just somebody to bounce it off of and especially if they're local. It's amazing. Like, that's perfect.
- [38:11]
A
It's. Our biggest issue is just we are still so small as a business and we put so much back into the business. We invest so much money that we were like, we can't afford to hire anybody, you know. And so yeah, yes was like a leap of faith and worth every penny because we need, we need it. You know, we just would be a successful event and that's the most important thing.
- [38:34]
C
Yeah. Yeah. I'm always like, get sponsors and all of that to help offset that because it's so worth it, you know. And there's so many people that want to be involved. Right. Like, you know, you've grown so much from retreat one, you know what I mean? To then this of like what you. I mean, what is it at this one? Is it five authors? Six.
- [38:55]
A
Five. Five.
- [38:56]
C
Yeah.
- [38:56]
A
I mean, huge authors. Yeah. We're stoked.
- [39:00]
C
Yeah. Like you, you have to bring in somebody too just for your own sanity because at the same time you don't like. And I always say, like, because I have to be on at events and y'all have to be on at these events and if you're on and also then managing, it's so much. You're just like something, something's gonna give and so it's just like, no, it's better off. Let them be the bad guy in instances. Let them like think through that. And you're just like the checks and balance. And that's. I mean I had that. We had our CMA afterparty and that's like, I'm just like the checks and balance of like, you know, they come and ask me questions, but it's like I'm like, I, I am paying you. Like, I. And I'm like, this is your job to manage. Because I just, I'm also the one. You. You're shaking hands. You're the one you know, like in front. And that's, that's also a full time job, you know?
- [39:51]
A
Yeah. I felt like last year I didn't get to have as many just chit chat conversations as I wanted to with. With our members. I mean, I feel like I had some, but just not as much as I wanted to because there were so many things I was worrying about. So I think it's going to be really great.
- [40:06]
C
They miss out on all your humor and banter. That's what happened.
- [40:10]
B
Wait, where you said sponsors. This is where we're going to ask you for something.
- [40:15]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [40:16]
B
Oh, you have to tell a story. So we're going to ask you something. Oh, does Shaboozi want to come to retreat? Yeah, why not? But can you please tell the story about how you literally played Shabuzi for us on your phone? You called it. You go, this is going to be the hit of summer. So just walk, everybody. Hi, this is Tipsy. This is Shaboozies person.
- [40:43]
C
Yeah, hi. There's a. And I still think of that moment, like, truly in that hotel room as we're packing those bags. I still think of that moment of like, I don't. I mean, I knew it was going to be. And I remember, I remember even saying it. And it was almost so naively that I said that of like, oh, this is going to be big. Right? And so. But to answer your first question, if Shaboozi can come, so he might be a little. That is also Grammy week, so.
- [41:15]
A
Oh, you think he'll be busy?
- [41:17]
C
I mean, he, he is up for six nominations, so. Yeah, he will. He'll probably be maybe a little busy. Maybe, you know, so. But. But maybe I, you know, I never say no until I ask him and, and the team. So we'll. We'll leave it open ended, you know?
- [41:31]
A
That sounds good. That sounds good. We'll say for him.
- [41:34]
C
That's right. And for the retreat, like, you have to come to see if he ends up making it, you know. That's crazy. No, just a little Easter egg of, like, not enough special guests. Groovy book club retreat and special guests.
- [41:48]
A
That's right.
- [41:49]
C
But yeah, I, it's funny, I remember even texting you later of like, you remember when. Remember when I just casually said this? I remember I took a phone call and you guys were putting them together, and I'm taking this call. And that's also, like, in that room is where I had the idea to do the bandanas. I heard of our song at Grammys right before this, like, this last year's retreat. And we were like, okay, that's kind of where we set everything in motion and didn't know about Beyonce yet. And so we were like, full steam ahead on Bar Song. And I'm like, this is. This should be the song of the summer. Like, this is gonna be. And then 19 weeks at number one and incredible hoping for 20 just to break all records. But, yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, this. The year has been, like. I just feel super grateful for, like, that moment. And then it was just really sweet to be able to, like, like, share that with you guys and then be able to go back to that, and you'll be like, you remember this? And you guys are like, I remember I played it on my phone. I'm like, this is it. And I'm like, okay, well, you.
- [42:57]
A
You suggest it to us then when it officially released. And I played it for Steve, and I was like, steve, oh, my gosh, this song. And he was like, oh, I love it. I love it immediately. And it just. It was so exciting and fun to be, like, to see the. The end product of what you all had been excited for and working towards.
- [43:19]
C
Yeah, it's funny. It's like you guys got to see, like, a little peek behind the, like, industry curtain of, like, hearing that in, what, February, right early. Was that February? And, yeah, the song didn't come out until April. And then now, having seen what it is, like, I don't. I mean, I don't know that I knew that it would do this. I knew it would be, like, a great song. And, like, yeah, this could be, like, the country song of the summer. I. I did not know it would be this global, wildly insane, you know, change his life kind of moment. But it's been cool to, like, just be, like, a part of that and kind of watch that truly, like, meteoric rise. It's like, you know, it's been such an unprecedented year on that and with him, and so it's like, I love that we had that moment in that shitty hotel room to kick it off.
- [44:11]
B
I don't know why Emily, we didn't ask her. We should have asked you for money then. Like, don't we get something out of listening?
- [44:19]
C
Yeah.
- [44:21]
A
Yes. Retreat. Sponsorship. That's what we're after now from me.
- [44:26]
C
Or Shaboozy, because that's a different level of income.
- [44:29]
A
Even still, not from you personally.
- [44:33]
C
Yeah, okay.
- [44:34]
A
Okay, Shaboozy. But we call him. We'll just call him.
- [44:38]
B
Okay, Heather, you've been on a bunch of podcasts lately. It's time for you to start your own. We know that ours is your absolute favorite, though.
- [44:45]
A
And here's the problem, is that now we're on episode. I don't know, 15 or something. I have nothing else to say. I am so boring. I mean, people have to be listening like that. Emily says the same thing every time. I know I know I have nothing.
- [45:04]
C
Just bring me back on every now and then. I'll be in a different city and, like, having some sort of nonsense of, you know, of what's going on or when I do launch my podcast and you guys can come on that one. And so, yeah, eventually. Eventually I will. We'll have one. But I. I don't have a topic right now. I'm not, you know, just me. So just like, I don't. I don't know that anybody cares that, like that. And then I think I would hit Emily's status of, like, I've run out of things of me to say, you know, like, who cares?
- [45:36]
A
Like, nobody cares. Plus, who am I? Nobody even knows.
- [45:40]
B
They're like, who's this lady who just keeps talking?
- [45:44]
C
Who is she?
- [45:45]
A
You know, we were. I laugh about that all the time because I know that, you know, Ashley has a big social media presence, and so she has all these fans and people who really love her and feel connected to her. And I don't have that because I don't want it. I don't want a social media presence. That's not really my thing. And I do so much of the back end, work on the business and do so much of it. And I'm sure that people just think like, oh, Ashley brought her boring friend down. It let her ride her coattails and come along on this business and podcast.
- [46:17]
C
No, I was gonna say you relate. That is me, with every artist that I work with. Yeah. You do realize that, like, I'm the business side. So then my entire roster and they have the big social father, and so then here I am, like. I mean, especially then, like, when I'm on red carpets and stuff, and I'm like, I feel like an idiot. I'm like, who let her in? And who is like, who. Who put her on the car? You know, I'm just like, following that. So I do. That's 100%. We share the same feeling in that. Yes. You don't text me and belong.
- [46:47]
A
You know, thing is, is that I have never been driven, nor has Ashley, by status or interested in people who have status. Like, that's not something that I care about. Like, if someone wants to tell me, oh, I know this person, I'm like, congratulations, that's really neat. But, yeah, personality is what I care about. Right person. I just want connections. It doesn't matter who you are, what status is. If I like you, that's wonderful. And I like most people, to be honest, but it's just one of those kind of funny things where I definitely have been pushed to the side. And you remember. You remember some of the retreat experiences of people saying things to me like.
- [47:24]
C
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. It's, like, hard to be. Or, like, getting, like, trying to get by you to get to Ashley and, like, is, oh, yeah. In her shadow? And you're like, yeah, push.
- [47:35]
A
Push me to the side. And also say things like, is it hard to be in her shadow? Is it hard to live in her shadow? And what they. What people don't seem to understand is I'm the alpha. Right, Ashley?
- [47:48]
B
Yes.
- [47:52]
C
And when in reality, you just had her mic on mute this whole time.
- [47:55]
B
I did you.
- [47:59]
A
When we are together, I'll.
- [48:01]
C
Ashley, unmute.
- [48:02]
A
I push her to the side. I'm like, get out of here, Ashley. I'm in. I'm having fun with your friends right now.
- [48:07]
C
This is my moment.
- [48:09]
A
I try to tell people all the time.
- [48:11]
B
I'm like, emily started this book club. She started it. She pulled me along. And I'm like, thanks. Why am I still doing.
- [48:19]
C
Why am I the one dancing on social media?
- [48:23]
B
And they're like, ashley, you are boring. And they're like, emily, you're awesome. I'm like, this is not. You don't want to be cooler on social media than you are in person.
- [48:31]
A
But.
- [48:34]
C
Here we are. Yeah. I mean, I. I don't know. I think I'm. I'm so. I. I would say probably jaded within, like, you know, within music and. Because, like, I don't care either. I was at a Christmas party last night, and there's only been a couple, like, people that I've, like, kind of lost it over and not even lost it, but, like, when I lose it, I just, like, go mute. Like, it's like I couldn't say anything right? And so. But. And. But that never happens. But for me, I'm like, if they're a good person or if they treat people well, like, I'm always the one. It's like watching how they treat then, like, those in, like, in service or whatever, especially backstage of, like, that. Because there's, of course, a lot of that. And so it's like, you know, it's. I'm just, I think, jaded from. From that time. It's like, I really don't care as long as you're a good person and you treat like people well, you know? And so it's like. But that's what. That's what makes me laugh. So.
- [49:33]
A
But that's a big one for me. Do you say please and thank you. Are you polite to people who are helping take care of you? Are you kind to them? And do you really think that you're so much better than people, than anybody, that you couldn't be in their position? That really. That really gets me. So I don't have a lot of tolerance for that. So it's funny, because I don't want any kind of notoriety or fame of any kind, especially notoriety. That means I probably went to jail, but I don't want any kind of fame. But I also am super, like, offended by the fact that people, like, shove me to the side. I'm like, wait, I'm a person.
- [50:09]
C
Treat people like, I don't want this, but I don't want this. Yeah, it's like, I don't want. Yeah, no, 100%. I relate to that. Like, I think it's the. And at the same. At the same time, Ashley's like, and I'm not living up to their standard of what they thought I was, you know, within this. And so it's like, yeah, I think that's the. Just the cruelty of it all. But, you know, and especially as a duo, like, I think it's different than if there was three, Right. Because then you have a different balance, I think, just with y'all, too, like that. Because it's easily, like. Like, being compared. Right? And it's like, oh, like, oh, Emily is funny. Right? And you're just like, yeah, she. She's funny. You know, like, you're funny. And so it's like. Like, you're not the. You're not like the. The mute, you know, on the back end. Right?
- [50:58]
A
She's a whole person with a whole life.
- [51:00]
C
Yeah.
- [51:01]
B
Like, career.
- [51:03]
C
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
- [51:06]
B
I mean, your third. You're going to be our third.
- [51:08]
C
So that. Yeah. They're going to be like, no wonder they've never shown her on camera. They're like. Like, she just brings them coffee at the retreat. Like, that's.
- [51:16]
B
No, it's.
- [51:17]
C
It's me.
- [51:18]
A
Listen, it's me, Heather. I have a face for podcasting. It's.
- [51:23]
C
I.
- [51:23]
A
This is my thought. This is where I belong. And so I'm always like, actually, not the video. Just put up audio of everything, please.
- [51:34]
C
I mean, at least. But that means you like your voice. Like, I can't go back and listen to this. I'll never go back and listen to, like, anything that I do because I'm like, oh, my God. Like, do I sound like that? Is that my cadence? Is that, like. And then I watch it. I'm like, is that what I do with my mouth? And I'm like, I just, like, destroy myself with it. So I'm just like, oh. So I always apologize in advance for. I'm like, oh, my God. If that's how you experience me, like, nice.
- [51:58]
A
We're gonna put this. We're gonna put some video up of this for our Patreon besties. You are beautiful and elegant and perfect, and people are going to swoon over you, and we're going to invite you back, but you have to tone down the good personality so that you're kind of crappier.
- [52:14]
C
Okay, I'll be the. I'll be the weird one. Lucy, I feel like I need you to knock that out. Easy.
- [52:20]
A
No, it's going to be now. Emily and Ashley just live in Heather's shadow.
- [52:27]
C
No, it's not. No, no. I will. Just as soon as you feel like you need a little bit of, like, ridiculous conversation. Like, I feel like I can provide that just within the experience of, like, my day, you know, good or bad.
- [52:42]
A
Well, I'm thinking right now we do interview people for Q&As and share those with our Patreon members. And I'm thinking we will post this and then ask them for questions for you, if you're willing to do one of those.
- [52:54]
C
Oh, sure. Yeah.
- [52:56]
A
Okay.
- [52:56]
C
I would love that we just get.
- [52:57]
A
To know you a little bit more.
- [52:58]
C
If you don't get any questions, though, I won't be offended.
- [53:02]
A
Oh, you know, usually they're like, we have.
- [53:05]
C
We have nothing. We actually don't need to know more.
- [53:08]
A
Ask Emily anything. Ask Ashley anything. And they're like, when does this end? Is it over? How do I get a refund?
- [53:17]
C
Yeah, yeah. Unsubscribe question mark. I keep texting that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're gonna be like, oh, she touched on some topics we did not appreciate. So, you know, but I don't think.
- [53:32]
A
That'Ll be the experience. And I think if there's anybody who's turned off by anything that you said, they're probably not for us.
- [53:38]
C
That is why. It's why you find your people so.
- [53:43]
B
But we love you, Heather.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah.
- [53:46]
C
I love you guys. It's so good to see you. Good to see you. Yeah, soon. Soon. And then. Yeah, I'm glad I catch up.
- [53:57]
A
Thanks for having me on. Stop recording.
- [54:01]
B
Thanks for listening.
- [54:03]
A
For more content, find us on Patreon at the creepy book club.
- [54:06]
B
Happy reading.