← Books With Your Besties
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- [00:02]
Ashley
After listening to this episode, we encourage you to head to our Patreon where we interviewed the author, Liz Nugent. Some of her answers about the research for this book and the process for writing the book. Absolutely surprised. We are thrilled to announce that this episode is brought to you by Lagoon Pillow. As women in our 40s who are trying to take care of our health and wellness, we know that good mornings start with optimal sleep and Lagoon pillows are made just for that. They're customizable, supportive, and will have you waking up feeling your best. I personally am an otter. Head to lagoonsleep.com take the sleep quiz and use code VOOK CLUB for 15% off your next order.
- [00:48]
Emily
Hi, I'm Emily.
- [00:49]
Ashley
I'm Ashley.
- [00:51]
Emily
And this is books with your besties. Okay.
- [00:57]
Ashley
You can you start us? You do. You're better.
- [01:01]
Emily
Hi, besties. Welcome back to this week. We're talking about a book. It will be a full spoiler episode. We are going to be talking about Strange Sally diamond by Liz Nugent. Okay, let's get into it. So go read it and come back and listen. Ashley, what would you rate it?
- [01:18]
Ashley
I on our Instagram and TikTok, which if you're not following us there, follow us there. I gave it 29 out of 5 stars.
- [01:26]
Emily
That is a lot of stars. I'll give it 29 also. I know, five stars for me. Totally a five star read.
- [01:32]
Ashley
Like, but beyond five stars, I'm like, there are some books that are five stars and I'll never forget reading this book.
- [01:38]
Emily
I know I loved it so much and it's the thing is I think that I love even more that it just hasn't been hyped up enough.
- [01:46]
Ashley
I 100%. And I kind of got mad at our book club members because we have a lot and I'm like, why? Why did none of you tell me about this book? Because when I shared about it, people blew up on our page and they're like, I love this book. Where did you hear about it?
- [02:01]
Emily
I do think somebody posted in maybe like our Facebook group or something. And I saw it. So I do think I had seen it here and there from our members, but not a lot. It was one of those that sort of caught my eye because it was like somebody really liked it, but I hadn't really heard about it. And so those are the ones lately that I'm like, I'm gonna put that on my list.
- [02:23]
Ashley
Megan, who said, read everything that Liz has written. She was like, if you think you liked Strange Sally diamond, read everything.
- [02:30]
Emily
I have them Literally all saved on my list in my phone for audiobooks because I do like a whole TBR thing in there. And then I just go through them. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to them.
- [02:45]
Ashley
So I think the thing about this book in particular, again, full spoilers. Some books take a while to warm up into how crazy you think it's gonna be. The first one page. The first page. Right. Or the first two pages, you're like, what in the world? So, reminder, remind our listeners what happens in the first two pages. And then I want to tell you something right away.
- [03:12]
Emily
Sally diamond is burning her father's body because she lives with her dad. He died. She puts him in, like, the trash bin out to the incinerator that they have, which is, by the way, she notes, they don't have trash service because they didn't want to pay for it. So they just burn all their trash in the incinerator every, every week. And she goes ahead and takes him out to go burn him. And then she's telling people in town, no, oh, my father died. I burnt. I. Oh, no, you can't see him. I burned him in the incinerator. And they're like, oh, that's not great.
- [03:45]
Ashley
So again, the first, like, I am laughing and horrified at the same time. The first page of the book, it. She find she, her dad is dead and she drags him out to the trash and lights his body on fire. But here's the thing. So cremation is the process of reducing a body to ashes using heat, not fire. So he doesn't, his body does not disintegrate the way that she thinks it would. So then it also becomes this whole basically murder investigation. Because she just tells people, like, well, he wanted to be burned, so. So I burnt him.
- [04:21]
Emily
Yeah. Like, she didn't understand sarcasm or the nuance of that. And she didn't make any calls. And he'd written her a letter and sealed the letter or two, two or three. Right. And he said, open this on the day that I die. But she assumed it must be a birthday card for 11 days later. So she was going to hold on to it till then. But inside it, it said, call our physician, our family physician when I die.
- [04:46]
Ashley
Well, and here's the thing, and we can, we can talk about this more later. But as someone who taught special education for a long time, I really quickly thought, oh, this book is going to be about someone who is autistic. Because it seemed like, well, very literally, my father told me to take him out with the trash. And that. That's how he. He wanted this to go. And she did it. And she couldn't understand why she could potentially be in trouble for that. But you come to find out it's not a story about this at all. And that the behaviors she's manifesting are. Are from trauma. Yes. And that's what the book is about.
- [05:26]
Emily
And what's so funny is you find out in the second letter that she is the child of a woman who was kidnapped and brutalized by this horrible man for many years, and then was. It was found, and she had a child, or two children, it turned out, but Sally was the child that was with her, and then that one woman ended up taking her own life. Right. And so Sally was the product of this, like, very traumatic and difficult upbringing early on and didn't have regular social interactions. And then her psychologist basically adopted her as, like, a case study and kept her. So she never got all of that social intervention. But what's really funny is you kept saying, oh, this is about someone autistic. And I'm. This is an interesting book. And I was like, ashley, read the second letter. Like, get to the second letter of the book. Because in the second letter, it explains that. And I was like, it's not that.
- [06:24]
Ashley
But can I read something that I found from a blog post in August 2024 that's from doctors Tony Atwood and Michelle Garnett, where they talk about this. Because I. I had to put the book down because with my experience in teaching, I thought, but the behaviors she's manifesting and the way that she's acting in the world, socially and emotionally, this has to be what the book is about. So it. I. I felt vindicated when they did say. Differentiating between trauma and autism can be challenging because both can present with overlapping behaviors, such as what we saw with her. Social withdrawal, communication difficulties, sensory sensitivities. But there can be key differences in their origins, external signs and patterns that help distinguish. And then it gets all into how exactly because of her experience being held captive, that this is the way she adapted to move in the world after that. Because of trauma.
- [07:21]
Emily
Yeah. Once it got into the stories about her childhood and the kidnapping of the mom. I mean, it was so horrifying. It was so hard to read and to think about, and really sickening how he turned the boy into his little protege to her brother. But what a fascinating story and a great way to unravel it. I mean, really brilliant in terms of the writing.
- [07:47]
Ashley
It was absolutely beautifully done, and it really Made me think about what can be done in isolation. Right. That the key to raising his son in a way, to be like him. And for his son not to question how he was treating the woman he was holding captive was the isolation piece.
- [08:11]
Emily
Well, and him to be taught that women are dangerous and terrifying and that he needed to. You know, he beat up his own mom, like, kicked his own mom in the stomach while she was pregnant and was, like, so horrible to her, starting at five or whatever. He was like a little boy, four. So messed up. But obviously it's what is normal to somebody and what they learn is normal. And then to live his whole life to. To treat that kid like his whole life, he thought if someone would touch him, he would die. So to never have any kind of other real, true, close interaction with other people or touch.
- [08:48]
Ashley
Like. No. No hugs. No. And really, this book was kind of two parts, Right. You have the part where he's holding her hostage and Sally and Peter. And then he gets caught and they flee and they make their way eventually to New Zealand, where this pattern then starts again.
- [09:12]
Emily
Yeah.
- [09:14]
Ashley
Which is.
- [09:15]
Emily
Yeah.
- [09:16]
Ashley
Horrifying.
- [09:17]
Emily
Horrifying. And, you know, it's interesting because in the book, they. They have a part where that second woman that the son takes. The son, Peter, takes this woman and keep. Or keeps the woman that the dad took and treats him like it's her partner. And she just kind of leans into that and becomes his partner, in fact, walking freely about the. The yard and the house and goes on her own, unattended, between the barn that she originally lived in and the home and doesn't try to flee. And the thing is, we. When we talk to Liz Nugent, I know you have set up that we're gonna get to interview her. We have to ask her how much she leaned on facts from the J.C. lee Dugard case. And so we have to talk about JC Lee Dugard because it's so similar and with some really, really important distinctions, I think. So do you want me to tell you about the case?
- [10:13]
Ashley
I do want you to tell me about the case. But before that, can I tell you one other thing?
- [10:18]
Emily
Oh, yeah.
- [10:19]
Ashley
Okay. Because I know once you get rolling on this, then you're going to just take us. Take us to school. So I. Here's the thing about this book that I thought was absolutely brilliant, I wrote down, and you just have to listen to me read them. Everything in this book that could be a standalone book. It was such a huge topic. So kidnapping, adoption, confession letters with dark family secrets, pedophilia, Pulling your own hair out as a trauma response. Cruelty. Like the kids that broke the window at her house. Not understanding, complying with social norms, bigotry and racism. Giving birth by yourself. She had to give birth by herself. Car accidents, dying in a car accident with fire, drowning, fake diseases, Stockholm syndrome. And then I just said, teeth stock off because of the polling. Like, when you read that list, you're like, how did Liz bring in all of those absolutely bonkers, traumatic things and wrap it up in one insane story?
- [11:29]
Emily
I know, but it didn't feel like, overdone or like she added too much. It felt very seamless and like a. Yes, this is kind of the next thing that might happen in the story.
- [11:40]
Ashley
Yes. That's why I had to list them all. I was like, I need to sit down and really go through what. What were all the topics in this book that could be standalone topics?
- [11:50]
Emily
Yeah.
- [11:50]
Ashley
Okay. Take us to school about J.C. lee, because I think I remember most of it, but as you were talking to me about it, I realized I don't, so I'm excited.
- [11:59]
Emily
Okay. So J.C. dugard was 11 years old in 1991, and she was living in South Lake Tahoe in California. And this case was really something that rocked that whole community, but also my own parents. Like, I went with friends to Tahoe and vacationed in Tahoe a lot, and I was that age. And she's the exact same age as us. Right. So we were 11 in 1991 also. So it. In 1991, she was walking. She lived with her mother and her stepfather, and she was walking on foot to the bus stop to go to school. And it was just up the hill nearby. So it was a really short walk. She did this all the time. Her mom was already gone to work. Her. Her stepdad was outside in the garage, and he heard a scream. He looked out and he saw a sedan with a man and a woman inside pulling JC into the car, and it sped off. He actually gave chase on foot running up the hill, but quickly realized there was no way he was going to catch them. Turned around, ran back home, and he's like, screamed to the neighbors, call 91 1. And a neighbor called 91 1. And he got on, and you can find transcripts and audio recording of his 911 call very quickly. Of course, the focus was on JC's biological father, who they determined was in another place, didn't live in Tahoe, and was not. Was ruled out. The mother was ruled out quickly. But they did have a lot of suspicions about Kyle, her stepfather and particularly because they had sort of a rocky relationship. So they didn't get along super great. They fought a lot, and they just really didn't have any suspects in this crime to go on. And they only had Kyle's word what happened. Kyle really worked with police well and even gave them a sketch of the woman and that was in the car, and a picture of the car, like, described the car well so that they could come up with that. And they circulated that really widely. There was a lot of. Of entities that were involved in this case. Their FBI was involved. You know, I mean, this was huge. There was a huge hunt for JC but there was no way to know where she could have been. So they weren't actually doing, like, a physical search. They were doing more of a. Like, try to find leads, get tips. They got a lot of tips. They ran them down. But there was never anything that really came to fruition to find JC and eventually the case went pretty cold. And it was cold and remained cold pretty much until 2009. Eighteen years later, a man named Philip Garrido and came into the UC Berkeley Police Department because he wanted to do an event on the UC Berkeley campus. And this event, I'll just tell you, the guy was obviously already ranting and raving. He was not making sense. He seemed to be maybe having some mental health issues or something significant was going on there. He was talking about how this event was related to a group called God's Desire, that it would be huge. The government was somehow involved in this event. And according to Kathy Cockrell of UC Berkeley News, he had two little girls with him. And reportedly, the officers did not think it looked right. The man's behavior, Philip Greedo, was really erratic, and the girl seemed to be sullen and submissive. Those are the words of the officers. So the woman who was responsible, Lisa Campbell, she was the manager of events on campus. She made a second appointment with him to come back at 2pm the following afternoon. And she was really careful about how she treated him to make sure that he would return. So she was really, like, open and kind, meticulous in some way. She encouraged this man to return. By the time he returned that following afternoon, she had had a fellow officer, Ali Jacobs. So it's these two women, Lisa Campbell and Ali Jacobs, run a background check on Philip Guerrido. And they discovered that he was a registered sex offender on federal parole for kidnapping and rape, which I will tell you more about. So she made a point to be there when he returned the next day. He came at 2 o'clock, ranting and raving continu continually again. And he had two girls in tow. The children were like pale. They looked 15ish and 11, I think were their ages. They looked healthy and not malnourished, but really drab and like very intense stares. Some of the same things potentially that you were talking about in terms of how trauma can look. And it just felt very concerning. Here's a quote, actually, that Officer Jacob said. She said it felt like, quote, little House on the Prairie meets cult with kids. So they. And she has two little children also. And so she was really like her mom radar was going off, that something was off. But they didn't have a basis to make an arrest. So when they left, they called Garrido's parole officer, federal parole officer, and asked about his children. And I there was more conversation that happened. And you can go listen to podcasts, watch documentaries on this case for lots and lots of detail. But the parole officer was like, no, he doesn't have children. And so immediately all of these alarm bells were going off. So Garrido had quite the history. So when we. And I'm going to tell you a little bit about his history and then we can talk about what happened next. And one of the big controversies in this case, it came out that he had JC Lee Dugard in his backyard for 18 years. He and his wife Nancy, together held her captive all of those years. He raped her repeatedly, starting a week after she got to the backyard at 11 years old. And she birthed two children shortly thereafter. So the children were 15 and 13 at the time. They found her 18 years later, or 15 and 11. Sorry about that. Philip Carrido should never have probably been allowed on the streets at all again after the crimes that he committed. So according to the Bay City News, there's information that they gathered through the El Dorado County District Attorney's office with a record of JC Lee Dugard being Corrido's fifth identified or known victim. So four of his previous victims had also been attacked in South Lake Tahoe. The first known assault was a rape and kidnapping in 1972 in Antioch, California, which is. Which is about three hours away. And that's where he lived and that's where his home was. The next attack was in 1976, a rape and kidnapping in South Lake Tahoe later in 1976. So that was June. In November, he attempted to rape and kidnap one woman and then raped and kidnapped a second woman in South Lake Tahoe on the same day. And in that Attack. He. He kidnapped this woman. He took her to a storage unit that he had set up like a sex prison. It had, like, lights strung up, a bed, all kinds of paraphernalia that he wanted to use, and had locks and chains. And the way that she was found is that an officer was driving by and noticed a lock on the storage unit wasn't secured correctly. And so Garrido was trying to, like, shoo the officer away, and the woman came running out completely naked and saved herself. And they caught Garrido. He was sentenced to 50 years in federal prison and 5 years to life in state prison. He served 11 years of his sentence. 11. And got out on good behavior. He was paroled in 1988. In 1991, what we came to find out after Jaycee was found was that they used a stun gun. Nancy Garrido, his wife, used a stun gun on JC so that she was incapacitated when he could drag her into the car near the bus stop. They kept her for 18 years in the backyard while his federal parole officer would come to the house and visit. But they had her in an outbuilding that was soundproofed, just like in the book Strange Sally diamond that was fully equipped. And actually, we'll link for you photos of his yard and his property. It's disgusting. I mean, it's like hoarder style. It's filthy. It's a mess. So it's not like this was set up all nicely for her. This was like chaos. And it's kind of good to look at it all and see what the parole officer might have been looking at as well. So according to Mike Tassell of KCRA 3 News, Garrido's parole officer, Edward Santos Jr. Stated he did search Garrido's house and never found anyone. But there was a lot of controversy around this because they looked at the times that he was visited in the 18 years, and federal parole officers only went to his home 10 times in 18 years after he had been paroled for kidnapping and rape with multiple offenses of kidnapping and rape in his history, Santos said from an email that was obtained by Mike Tassell, nkcra3news. I searched the entire house and never found anybody else, Santos said. I looked in the backyard and it was a typical backyard. A typical backyard that was just. It wasn't atrocious. It wasn't well kept. A lot of debris and a lot of appliances left on the lawn, overgrown shrubbery and grass. Nothing unusual about that. There is video footage of a parole officer Visiting Garrido from their own records. So like a body cam. And they basically set foot inside and were shooed out pretty quickly by Garrido while he said he had to take his wife to an appointment. So the officer didn't search almost anything that day. If he had just gone into the backyard and checked the different outbuildings and tent that were in the backyard, he would have found Jaycee there and her two children.
- [23:00]
Ashley
A tent.
- [23:01]
Emily
A tent. They had a tent and they had outbuildings. Yep. Multiple outbuildings. I mean, it's one of those. You know, you drive right by properties like that and, you know, some people may live on a property like that that are listening to this, but where you see there's all kinds of sheds and shacks and cars and all the things all over. It was a bit like that. So nobody ever searched the whole building. Nobody ever searched it or the whole property, which is so upsetting and such a failure. And there was reform for parole officers after this case because of that. When J.C. lee was approached by officers and asked who she was and they didn't know at this point, they just. He had admitted he kidnapped her. Garrido had. She said, I haven't said my name in 18 years. I can't say it. And so she wrote it down. And you know what's crazy? That is here's the huge, very important distinction. Two of them. One is she does not care for, nor does her psychologist and her mentor, Dr. Bailey, the term Stockholm syndrome. She feels like it is a way to victim blame like that. And. And J.C. says, I never felt connected to the Garridos like these were now my people. You know, she just was trying to survive. She was allowed to move freely about the property. But he had her so scared. I mean, he had her from 11 years old and he had brainwashed her to that if she left, someone worse would take her and kill her and hurt her and keep her unsafe. Or two, she said one of her biggest fears was she was so afraid that her mother wouldn't accept her anymore. Her mother wouldn't want her back the way that she was after these 18 years, after everything that had happened, or accept that she had children and nothing would be further from the truth. Her mother, Terri was immediately went to her, embraced her and her children, which is very different than in strange Sally Diamond. They immediately loved her and wanted her and her girls back. So she lives a quiet life now and, you know, had. Has had to do a lot of healing, but she doesn't want to be Treated like a victim or feel like that. She's a victim. She's a survivor.
- [25:24]
Ashley
I wish sometimes I wish our podcast was a video so they could see that my hand was just over my mouth. My. The whole entire time. I forgot that it was 18 years.
- [25:37]
Emily
I know.
- [25:39]
Ashley
I mean, and I just. The age also right in strange. Sally diamond. She's also 12. The first time, when you do the math, she was impregnated. So it does feel similar. Do we. I. I'm going to ask you this, and you might not know the answer, but do we know how Nancy came into his life? Like, was she also potentially the one that was helping him keep her?
- [26:05]
Emily
I don't think so. Oh, and I did hear. I. I did hear on a video I was watching from a. From the news, and I was reading about this, but I can't cite a source, and I'm not sure the veracity of this, so I'll just say out of hearsay. I think at one point somebody did. She tried to pick up and take another child, but the parent was right there. Nancy Garrido did, and the parent was right there. This is after JC was taken, and the parent ran out there, and she's like, oh, I just saw her wandering away and was trying to make sure she didn't run away, wander off. And, like, said she was trying to help the mother, but she was, like, walking her away from the parking lot. And so she put the girl, the child down and the mother took the child. And the mother was like, it was a very weird situation. It did not feel like the woman was trying to keep the child safe. And the woman noticed she looked like the sketch that JC's stepfather Kyle had drawn and called the police with a tip line. And they. They put out a news report or press report, something like that, and said, like, hey, if this woman that this incident happened would get in contact with us. And she got in contact with them and convinced them that she was just trying to help, and they never followed it through.
- [27:23]
Ashley
I think I remember hearing about that on a podcast. Also hearsay, but hearing that she tried to abduct another child. But is this true? Also? I'm just going to ask you all these questions. Like, you were the one that. That did this case where JC was held was close to her own home. Like, just like, same town, right? Same. Same city.
- [27:48]
Emily
No.
- [27:49]
Ashley
How far away?
- [27:50]
Emily
So she was from South Lake Tahoe, and Antioch was about three hours away.
- [27:55]
Ashley
So still close enough that you're like, my daughter was three. It just made me think of the book and how I know victims in the book were in like the girl that was in the barn, that she was in the city where she was abducted and the neighbor that drowned, like that was your next door neighbor. I know crimes happen literally so close to home.
- [28:15]
Emily
That's the thing is I, I wish we would all be able to be more vigilant After I was doing so much research on this last week or over the last week on this case, as I was driving home in these rural areas, I was seeing so many properties that look like the corridos. Right. And I was just like, has anybody been in those? Does anybody check those? Like, how do we prevent this in the future? How do we know? How do we watch out for our neighbors and make sure this doesn't happen?
- [28:46]
Ashley
Well, and it is so rare statistically for a stranger to kidnap a child that like, I can say that, like, that's not a fear that I generally have because it's usually a family member, a coach, a whoever. So the fact that in this instance it did seem like she was just taken as a. From a stranger.
- [29:09]
Emily
Yeah.
- [29:10]
Ashley
And it's so rare, like that many rapes and kidnapping. I know that this episode is about the book and not that, but how are you not in jail for eternity?
- [29:20]
Emily
I mean, even for one. I'm sorry. If you're willing to kidnap a woman and try to chain and lock and keep her in a storage unit, I feel like that's it for you.
- [29:30]
Ashley
Something you brought up about the JC case that I kept thinking about and wanted to talk with Liz about when we interview her is the girl that Peter's dad kidnapped and kept in the barn because he was like, well, you want a friend? Here's your one friend who eventually became Peter's partner, had his baby, which he then kidnapped. And that was horrifying. But the way it was written was almost like it was her choice to stay, when really it's just self preservation. Like, what's going to happen if I leave this place property? And he watching her, he was secretly watching her to see if she left.
- [30:07]
Emily
Right. Well, and at this point, I don't know. Can you. I, I get it. We on the other side can be like, your family would embrace you and take you back, but we don't know how they would feel about this. And here's the thing is I know that right now, if someone was like, walk away with just the clothes on your back from your home and never return, it would be so terrifying. Like, what do you mean? Go where? Yeah, with no dollars with nothing. So they, they stripped them of having any way to feel like they could go anywhere and if it's been long enough that they no longer feel like, like she, JC Lee Dugard couldn't say her name. And you know, it was interesting because Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped really close together in that same time frame and they also found her like 10 months after she was kidnapped, something like that. And she too wouldn't give her real name right at first to the officers when they asked her. She kept giving her given name and that's because she was with them long enough that they scared her into not saying her name. You know, they scared her into like, you cannot say this. So to expect them to just, you know, climb out a window and boogie down the street to a neighbors and hope that neighbor is friendly just feels. I get why we don't know. We just don't know. We'll never know. Hopefully. I pray to God none of us ever know what that's like and why, what choices you would make in that situation.
- [31:34]
Ashley
Here's a quick clip of JC Dugard being interviewed and talking about raising her two girls. My world changed in an instant.
- [31:43]
Emily
And this is JC Lee Dugard today re emerging out of her privacy with lessons she's learned in the past five years.
- [31:52]
Ashley
Thank you.
- [31:52]
Emily
About transforming suffering into joy. Every single day.
- [31:58]
Ashley
It's taken a lot of time and it hasn't, hasn't come overnight.
- [32:02]
Emily
You know, you have to put in.
- [32:03]
Ashley
The hard work and cry and for sure laugh about everything that you can.
- [32:09]
Emily
Her two girls born in that backyard now all grown up and thriving.
- [32:13]
Ashley
They're so resilient and they're beautiful and loving.
- [32:18]
Emily
She's protecting their privacy. Some of their friends don't even know their history. And if you met them, you'd be stunned by their vibrance, their curiosity and independence. She says she wasn't going to let her fear limit her children's lives.
- [32:32]
Ashley
Do we scare our kids into never wanting to do anything or do we prepare them for the worst in life, never knowing of, you know, if it's really going to happen.
- [32:43]
Emily
Do you still call him their dad, which you did five years ago when.
- [32:46]
Ashley
I referred to him? No, I think I've been calling him Philip lately actually. You know, when we do talk about him, I, I did think. Slightly different topic, but I, I did think the way Liz wrote. So they kidnapped the girl, they keep her in the barn, the dad rapes her, he's horrible to her. And then when the dad dies in the car accident, Peter decides To keep her. At that point, I'm like, let her go. What? But he thinks because he keeps her and he's not treating her as horrifically as his dad, he's almost protecting her. Like, did you get that feeling? I thought, oh, this is. This is a whole different level of just being unwell.
- [33:29]
Emily
There's like, yeah, it's twofold. He also. I mean, also, I think he was put into this position where he's like, okay, wait, I didn't let her go the first day. Now I can't let her go because now I'm complicit. And so now I'll go to jail. Like, if. If it didn't, like, instantly when the dad died, he didn't be like, he's a kidnapper. And he didn't do that. Just it, like, forced him. Yeah.
- [33:56]
Ashley
And that the baseline is, I'm not. I'm not raping you. I made your room in the barn look a little nicer. I'm bringing you food that you like. And just the amount that he recognizes he's in the wrong, but he.
- [34:12]
Emily
I think.
- [34:13]
Ashley
But because he's not as horrific as his dad, initially, when it gets to the end of the book, I'm like, oh, you. You continue to. You're going to keep doing this. You. You got a vasectomy, so you can just keep on doing this horrific stuff that your dad. Anyway, I just thought she wrote that so well. I'm like, oh, he thinks because he's not as bad as his dad that he's somehow still not holding her hostage and, like, keeping her there.
- [34:40]
Emily
I also really liked that they made the sun. She made. She wrote the son as a character that Sally would like a lot and feel comfortable with, because we love to think that we would be like, that's a serial killer. And I'm sure, you know, sometimes that's true. Like, the Long island serial killer or whatever was, like, kind of the weirdo on the block. That people were like, oh, that guy's strange. But also Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer and all of these other people were just, like, nice neighbors. Joel Rifkin. Like, these are people that btk.
- [35:14]
Ashley
He was. He was part of the church security.
- [35:16]
Emily
Team and, like, helpful and friendly family member, and he did some of the most atrocious things. You cannot tell. That's why I look at all of my neighbors, and I'm like, is it you?
- [35:27]
Ashley
It's me. It's the one closest to you. 1. Another thing she did in the book that I thought was so well done. Was. And I know you intentionally do this, and I intentionally do this. We try to surround our kids with community and people who will be there for them. And I thought as flawed as Sally's dad was, we find out her adopted dad, as flawed as he was in many ways, he did set up kind of a community for her to have. And I thought Angela's character was absolutely beautiful. And the way she was willing to help try to kind of shelter and keep Sally moving through the world after she lost her dad, I just thought the way her dad had some systems and people in place to help her was I. I just liked it.
- [36:16]
Emily
I know. I mean, her dad was such a complex character because she loved him and she felt cared for by him, and that's of a lot of value. And maybe he was also abusive to his wife.
- [36:28]
Ashley
Right.
- [36:29]
Emily
And maybe he was also not doing what was really best for her. And. And how complicated for someone to have to manage.
- [36:38]
Ashley
And the. The other part, it was not comic relief, but when her aunt was telling her, like, basically laying out her past for her, and Angela was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me come over. I'm like, leave it to that one person in the family to be like, oh, I. Let me tell you about our family. I'm like, oh, no.
- [37:00]
Emily
I know, man. What an interesting story. And the way the reason it's called Strange Sally diamond is because her name get. What was given to her after she was kidnapped was Sally Diamond. That was not her name from birth, but it's the name that her parents gave her so that she could have a clean identity, a new identity for herself, basically. And the kids all called her Strange Sally diamond because she was so socially odd.
- [37:27]
Ashley
I saw a description, too, that said diamond was given to her intentionally by the author because it's like a hard exterior, but a very strong. And also, you know, every diamond is different.
- [37:40]
Emily
Oh, that's cool. I know.
- [37:41]
Ashley
I was like, oh, that's. That's really cool.
- [37:44]
Emily
I loved her. I loved her character. I just thought Liz did such a great job of writing these characters in a way that you could like the dad, instead of being like, well, he's just bad, then, you know, you're like, that's complicated. I can see the complexity of this character.
- [38:02]
Ashley
So if you haven't read it, well, you should have read it. If you listen to us now.
- [38:05]
Emily
Yeah. At this point, too late now. Don't bother.
- [38:08]
Ashley
But come go to our Patreon, because we will have an interview with her, and we'll ask her all the questions about writing this book. I have so many questions.
- [38:16]
Emily
Yeah, I know. I think she's an author that I'm so excited that we have found and connected with and can start to read more of her stuff. So thank you all for listening to us ramble about this.
- [38:29]
Ashley
Come back next week for. We don't know. Come back soon for Quiet Librarian.
- [38:35]
Emily
Yes. And also, what's the other one we're going to talk about?
- [38:39]
Ashley
Oh, this book will bury me.
- [38:41]
Emily
Ashley Winstead. Yep.
- [38:43]
Ashley
All right, thanks, guys.
- [38:44]
Emily
Okay, bye.
- [38:48]
Ashley
Thanks for listening.
- [38:50]
Emily
For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.
- [38:54]
Ashley
Happy reading.