← Books With Your Besties
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley and this is Books with youh Besties.
- [00:06]
B
Hi, Em.
- [00:07]
A
Hey, Ash. And hello, besties. We are back and this week we are talking about Lucinda Berry's book, Saving Noah.
- [00:16]
B
We are. And like with our previous episode, this one has a lot of trigger warnings. So just make sure you kind of check the show notes, check our trigger warnings and there will be spoilers. We're going to talk about everything. So make sure you have read the book and if at any point this gets to be too much, just pause it and walk away. And then come back.
- [00:38]
A
Yes. And go and read it. If you haven't and you have interest in it again.
- [00:43]
B
Yes.
- [00:43]
A
Like check the content warnings. Ashley kind of told me like, maybe you shouldn't read this, but I did anyway.
- [00:49]
B
And I think it's important to say we. Most of the books we talk about on our podcast are psychological thrillers. And this one I'm going to go ahead and say is not. It's a. It's very different from other things that Lucinda Berry has written. So if you're expecting a perfect child or Appetite for Innocence, that is not saving Noah.
- [01:10]
A
Right. But it still is about crime.
- [01:13]
B
True. Yes, true. Okay, let's get into it. You're right.
- [01:16]
A
Okay. Saving Noah.
- [01:18]
B
Saving Noah. I mean, here we go.
- [01:20]
A
Okay, so the premise is basically that Noah is a 15 year old boy at the time of the crime. He, when he was 10, he had a little sister, Katie, who was born. So he's 10 years older than his little sister. When he's 15 years old, he is coaching swimming. He's like this all star student and athlete and like great social kid in high school, getting along with everybody. Just has this perfect life. And he comes to his mom and he says, mom, the little kids, I was training little girls. I molested two of them regularly as their swim coach. So that's the premise of the book. Horrifying.
- [02:00]
B
That's how it opens. And it's so in the beginning of the book when he finally decides to tell his mom, do you remember, Em? They're sitting on a couch and he is just. She's felt it, right? A mom knows these things. My mom's like, I know something's going on with him. And nothing like this comes to top of mind. She's like, I'm prepared for him to tell me he's doing drugs. She's like, I assumed it was probably just regular, but maybe it's something like meth. And that's where your brain goes, right? Like my kid's struggling with addiction or bullying. And when he tells her, it's just devastating.
- [02:37]
A
Yes. And she, in true denial kind of form, wants to be like, oh, my gosh, we have to fix this ourselves and not through the criminal justice system, essentially, and tries to, like, figure out how to fix this and fix him. Here's the thing. This whole book, there's two pieces of it. One, they talked throughout the book about that, you know, him being what they establish is basically a pedophile, where he truly has a proclivity for sexual arousal from children, and it's not treatable in this case. Right. He being a pedophile, literally. Anything else he had said that we think of as, like, major issues, almost anything would have been better. Right?
- [03:22]
B
Anything would have been better. Anything.
- [03:25]
A
Like, at one point he says, I thought maybe I was gay. And the mom's like, I laughed. Like, if only. You know, I mean. And that's the kind of thing that obviously, that's not something that, like, you're concerned about.
- [03:38]
B
Right.
- [03:39]
A
Or I'm concerned about our children being gay because we would love our children no matter what and accept them and be happy for them. Right. That's fine with us. But a lot of people in America we know, still would have a problem with their child being gay.
- [03:51]
B
Right. Would potentially have a similar reaction to the reaction she had of him saying that he's a pedophile. Right.
- [03:57]
A
And so it just made me want to be like, maybe we should send this to all of the parents that don't accept their gay child and be like, your kid's just gay.
- [04:05]
B
Yeah. Like, that's it. Get over it.
- [04:08]
A
Get over it. Because this is the kind of thing that is so horrifying. I don't know how you live with it or navigate it.
- [04:13]
B
And that's a huge piece, which we won't get into yet, of how the book ends is how do you live as a pedophile? Because it's not. It's not that you are wanting to hurt children. From what I've read in the research I've done, it's that the way you and I are attracted to men or a woman is attracted to a woman, they're attracted to children, and it's not something that can be cured. Yeah. So a couple more things just about the opening of the book that I found to be super powerful. How did you feel about the scene when she invited the victim's parents over and just said to them, my son molested your daughters? It was so uncomfortable and. But well done. And the way she used the word molested. She's like, I know what you're thinking. It's not that he just touched them.
- [05:07]
A
Right. I, I, I think when I read this, I truly had maintained a sense of distance to where I don't ever hope to find out how I would react in any of these situations. And so I could just observe as an outside party. Does that make sense? Like, I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna put myself in their shoes and think about what would I do.
- [05:30]
B
Agree. And I, I think one of the hardest parts of the book. This sounds so selfish, but Hunter's 15 and just thinking about my son struggling in the way Noah was struggling and not being able to help him until she helps him in a way that she decides is the best way at the end of the book, but the way that the mom must have just felt so helpless and absolutely terrified for him. Yes.
- [05:56]
A
Oh, I, I, that's what, it's unfathomable. It's just one of those things you have to be grateful that you isn't happening to you. And I genuinely think we can't put ourselves in their shoes. Like, I don't think we know at all how we would respond.
- [06:12]
B
No, absolutely not. You and I have talked about this a million times. How would you respond if your kid told you X, Y, or Z? And this one, there's just no possible way you could ever imagine how you would respond. Nor do I even really want to let my brain go there. Right.
- [06:27]
A
You know, it's the kind of thing where, you know how we're like, as parents, no one can prepare you for what it's like having a baby.
- [06:32]
B
Yeah, it's true.
- [06:34]
A
Everybody, every single person who has a baby is like, yeah, I, you know, I thought I was prepared, but not really. Like, nothing can really prepare you to experience it. That's having a kid. It's a joy, it's a gift. Right. This is like something that I am just going to never be able to comprehend how I would respond in unless I get into that situation. And I pray to God I never do.
- [06:58]
B
I know. So moving through the first part of the book, he is tried as a juvenile, and his attorney in the book says we're trying him as a juvenile because then he can get treatment instead of sitting in jail. And it's different on the sex offender registry. After a certain amount of time, once he's sentenced, he, it will no longer show up as a felony. So he gets sent to a treatment center where it really felt like his mom was given not what I would say is a lie, but a sense of false hope. When they said we could, we can treat him here like this is treatable. And she holds really tight to that.
- [07:38]
A
Well, to be fair to them, like Dr. Berry wrote in the book for juveniles that offend in this way many, for most of them it is treatable because it's not actually an impulse thing. It's some bizarre social screw loose in their head and they're, they're not, you know, they're screwed up in some impulsive way and they need re guidance and retraining and they're not actually a pedophile.
- [08:02]
B
Right. As I was reading about this, I was surprised to read about how there is such a vast difference between pedophiles and someone who may molest or sexually abuse someone that that's. That it is not the same, that those are designated as different. And some of the boys in the book at the treatment center where Noah was, the doctors were clearly like, he's just a teenage boy. He got curious about the wrong things. And that could be treatable where what Noah has is not treatable.
- [08:30]
A
Right. And the way he really establishes that is that consistently in dreams and in the real world, he reports sexual arousal to thinking about children, small children, like 6, like the age of his sister.
- [08:46]
B
Right. And the fact that he. For me, part of it too was the fact that he acted on it. It wasn't just thoughts. It wasn't just. It was that he did something to these at the time, six year old girls recognized it felt good to him in a sexual way and knew that's not something that's going to change no matter how hard I work to change it.
- [09:09]
A
Exactly. I mean, it wasn't like he acted on it though, and then was like, that was gross and wrong.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah.
- [09:14]
A
And like he said he never was attracted to people his own age.
- [09:17]
B
That was interesting when his mom kind of asked, when did you know? And he ran her through that and they had the most like, mother, son relatable moment when he's like, my friends were looking at porn and he's like, sorry, mom.
- [09:30]
A
She's like, I wish you were too.
- [09:31]
B
You know, like.
- [09:32]
A
And that puts that in perspective. It puts in perspective that you always think the worst thing. Like, oh, no, my kids looking at porn is the worst thing. It's not.
- [09:41]
B
No. You're like, I wish my son was having, quote unquote, normal teenage struggles. What did you think in the decision of the book of Lucas and Noah's mom choosing to live in separate locations in what seemed like an attempt to protect Katie. I don't know.
- [09:59]
A
I mean, again, I just, I have. It's. This is gonna be a fruitless conversation with me because I just don't have judgment around any of it because I don't know how I would feel. I just was like, again, I'm just observing like this, like horrified by that this would be anybody's reality and like wanting to know how it played out. But yeah, I can see why that might happen, why you might. Honestly, he was 17 years old by the time they he came back. I did think, you know, you're a hair shy from going off to college or going and living on your own anyway at 18. But I'm surprised they didn't emancipate him and let him be an adult.
- [10:39]
B
In some ways, that was his dad's idea. I mean, his dad said, I looked into emancipating him. And his mom clearly had this unbelievably close relationship with him. Where, where she talks about when he was born, it was like a piece of her that had been missing was placed on her chest. She's like, it felt like he had always been there. So it seemed like she was so terrified to let him be in the quote unquote real world where her dad was like, he's such a liability to our daughter.
- [11:10]
A
How do I did think? Yeah, yeah, I thought it was. I thought it was not unreasonable to not want him to live in the same home as a six year old child, seven year old child. I thought it was interesting to treat him like he was still a little boy the way that she did. I don't know, maybe some. Not to say that people can be too dependent or close with their kids, but maybe too much identity wrapped up into her child.
- [11:39]
B
Yeah. Like being his mom was what her only priority was.
- [11:44]
A
Yeah. You know, the developmentalist at my work, she's really interesting. She always has interesting things to say. Dr. Yakim and she talked about how, you know, child having children back in the day used to be for utility, people would have children because they needed people to work the homestead and the farm. They had to have people or the business. Right. This was critical for their survival, was to have children. So children were utility. There's no more utility in having children. Most of the time I don't need the kids to manage the household. Right. So she said there's been this major shift in the way that parents think about kids and they wrap their identity into it and that's a really unhealthy thing to do actually, it's to make your children your identity. We are too invested in our kids as people in a way that's. That no longer benefits us. Well, isn't that interesting to think about?
- [12:38]
B
Yes. And I think you and I have talked a little bit around this in how not that our parents generation were having children through utility, but I do not remember my parents. And this is not a slam on them putting the time, energy or effort that I feel like I put into my children every day. And I think, when did this become the new normal? That 24 hours a day I'm entertaining you or doing whatever for you. And I don't, I think it's harmful as a parent and I don't think it's beneficial for the child either. There has to be more of a, I'm a mom, but I'm also a person and I have my own life and you are yes, my child, but you're also a person and have your own life. So how do I foster that?
- [13:17]
A
Right. And my, my job here at this point is to help you become a productive member of society, not to have you reflect me.
- [13:26]
B
Yeah. One of the things I found while I was reading some stuff just about juvenile offenders and pedophiles that there's a professor whose name is Elizabeth Letourneau. She's the director of the Moore center for the Prevention of Child Sex Abuse at Johns Hopkins. She talked about how there is such a lack of resources or money or programs to help people who are able to identify as a pedophile at a young age. So she's like, part of the work I'm doing is around how can we prevent these people from offending and what kind of programs can we offer them if they're self identifying at such a young age? But that and this part I think is tricky. Em, she's like, so many people don't want to come forward and say I'm having these thoughts because they realize that legally, especially if they've acted on them, they can get in trouble. So it's just so hard for people to come forward and say, I am the worst of the worst, but help me.
- [14:29]
A
Even if you haven't acted on them, or without the legality, the shame and fear of saying something like that out loud, I'm sure prevents people from sharing it.
- [14:40]
B
Well. And she brought up in this article the, I mean, you and I have talked about this with serial killers and other things, but if you hear someone is a pedophile, your first instinct, or at least mine, is to feel like that person is horrible and they're doing horrible things to children. But also it's a mental health condition. And the way that you don't want to say you have sympathy for someone, but also they're born this way, right?
- [15:07]
A
They're born this way. The problem is the harm they perpetuate is so damaging. You don't want to take away from the victims by empathizing. Well, you can't really. But sympathizing with a pedophile, right?
- [15:21]
B
That's not in anybody's nature to want to do that. But also why she makes the point, this is why people don't want to come forward and say, I'm having these thoughts, I need help. Because she knows the second they say that, it's going to be judgment and potentially legal consequences. So in the book, he gets out and he comes and he lives with his mom and it's this whole new normal because as a teenage boy, because he's a sex offender, he can't have the Internet, can't have a phone. Do you remember what else? There were a bunch of things he couldn't do as now a registered sex offender.
- [15:54]
A
I don't remember. I mean, I know there's places that you can, you have to register, obviously, right. So you have to go and tell people where you live and then you can't live within certain distance to things like schools or parks or places that children frequent, stuff like that. So they obviously figured that all out. You know, something interesting though is why did she insist on sending him back to school? I mean, at 17, that was the one thing, there's my one judgmental thing is I was like, why would you not let this kid finish out at homeschool?
- [16:22]
B
Right?
- [16:23]
A
Why are you sending your, your, yeah. Your sex offender child out into the world?
- [16:28]
B
Right. Especially after he got beat up the first time. Like his life is at risk.
- [16:32]
A
Right.
- [16:33]
B
And how can you, how can you be at high school as a sex offender? Now I have questions about this. Like, if you're not allowed to be near a school, how can you be in a school?
- [16:41]
A
Right. That part is weird too. I don't know that maybe there is an access thing, like, you know, that he was allowed because all. Everyone has the right to education, but why wouldn't they do them all? I just don't get it. That to me was, that was the one thing that I was like, why in the world would you insist that your 17 year old go back to, to school? Why wouldn't you just let him do the online academy thing and stay Home alone.
- [17:04]
B
Right. Especially when she had a job where she was able to work from home. Like, why don't you just let him stay home?
- [17:09]
A
Yeah. And he. Yes. He can't have the Internet. Yeah. He could get permission to do school.
- [17:14]
B
Right? Yeah, I didn't think about that part. That was a mistake. Mistake by mom.
- [17:18]
A
That was weird. But whatever. That's neither here nor there. Should we. So, okay, I'm going to tell you the one little thing that I know because I know you have lots to tell us that's interesting from this book. I'm just going to tell you about something that spoke to me in the book, and that is Adam Walsh was mentioned and how that impacted the sex offender registry. So this is something that I teach about when I teach psychology and law. The very first day, my primary topic is about the sex offender registry. And we just walk through the history, we look at the registry, we look at what kinds of perpetrators register. Now it's different that you can map offenders and see who lives around you within a mile or two or whatever you choose. But it's, it's an interesting thing to think about the sex offender registry because it's the only type of crime that we have two penalties for. So you serve your jail time or prison time and then you continue to have to be publicly noted for the crime. And so one of our conversations is around, do you think that should continue? Which, by the way, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. All of my students think yes, pretty much it should continue. But why don't we do the same for other types of crimes, Domestic violence, so that somebody knows if they go start dating and marry this person, that they abused their last partner or other types of violent crimes, assaults or murder. Right. Should we be having a registry of all crimes? And so there's this philosophical discussion we have. Anyway, here is how the sex offender registry kind of started. And just a couple of the cases, three. Actually, I'll talk about three of the cases that really impacted law, that changed law around the national registry of sex offenders. And you can see laws are generally created most often by one incident. Case law. Right. An incident happens, there's a case, they look at what happened and they say, what do we need to put into place that this can't happen the same way again? So the first One is in 1994 is Jacob Wetterling. Jacob Wetterling and, and his brother and another child went out on their bikes to. By themselves to like the local market. And on the way back, someone pulled up in a car and Pointed a gun at them and told them to get into the ditch. They were on their bikes, told them to lay down. And then he had them flip over one at a time, looked at their faces and. And told them to, like, run off into the woods, except for Jacob. And he kept Jacob. And when the two boys got to the edge of the woods, the brother and the friend, they turned around and saw Jacob was gone. They didn't find him for a very long time. But what ended up happening is they did find him. He had been killed and assaulted. And in 1994, the Jacob Wetterling Crimes Against Children and Sexually Violent Offender Registration act was enacted. And this established baseline standards for the sex offender registry. It also established a heightened class of offenders called sexually violent predators. So there's a difference with sex offenders. They do classify them. And state by state, the requirements of the registry are different. So they're. This is all regulated by the state, but there are federal laws and federal requirements around some of it. But what is looked at is how likely is an offender to reoffend. So I'll use Oregon as our example when I talk about these. So they establish this baseline standards. Okay. Then, couple years later, 1996, Megan Kenka was in her own neighborhood, and a neighbor asked her if he want. She wanted to come see his puppy, and he raped and killed her. Okay. And so what happened was he had previous crimes against children, but his family didn't know. And his mother said, I never would have let Megan ride around the neighborhood alone or with friends had I known there was a sex offender living on my street. Right. And so in 1996, Megan's Law was created, and it basically. It basically implemented public notification procedures. So it doesn't mean that they come around and put, you know, signs up, but you can access a list of registered sex offenders in your state, and that's required that there can be public notification and it can be disclosed when required to protect the public. So, like, hey, this person keeps offending everybody. You know, this is. We want to let you know that there's an offender that's problematic, but it also just can be for any reason. So the. Anyone could go down to the state offices and request a list kind of a thing. There are a number of other conditions or acts that were created in the interim here. But in 2006, one that was case that was really influential, this is the Adam Walsh one. So this is the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act. And this basically created a new baseline of sex offender registration and notification statement standards that Everyone, all jurisdictions had to follow. And so it included federally recognized Indian tribes to have sex offender registration. All states, everywhere in the United States had public options. And then it also created an office called smart. It's the Sex offender Sentencing Monitoring, apprehending, registering and tracking office. So, you know, register and track. So they basically monitor these folks to make sure that they. The standards are being held. This came from. So Adam Walsh is interesting because John Walsh, who was the host of America's Most Wanted, most people know him and know of him. He started doing that because his son was murdered. So his son was at a Sears with his mom or both parents. This is all. Everything I'm talking about is totally off the top of my head. Like, just my knowledge right on this. So if I get a very small detail wrong, he was at Sears and he was playing video games, watching these older boys play video games, basically in a little video game thing while his mom was shopping. And the boys got kicked out by a security guard, the big boys did for being disruptive or something. And they think Adam got kicked out too, maybe accidentally with them or followed the boys outside of the store. But he was found dead later and a sexually violent offender had taken him. And here's one really cool thing about Adam Walsh's case that John Walsh got established. If you look at a lot of stores, like if you look at Walmart right at the doors, there is something called Code Adam. And you can see the blue stickers when you go in and out of stores. Code Adam was implemented because of Adam Walsh. Where now, if they call a cult, Code Adam. So if you say my kid is missing, they will close and lock all doors and nobody will go in or out until the child is found.
- [24:36]
B
I'm interrupting you for a second because this literally just happened to me last week.
- [24:41]
A
No, at.
- [24:42]
B
Where was I? I was somewhere with a really large group of people. It wasn't the mall. Anyway, I was somewhere with my kids. And a Code Adam came over the system. They said, code Adam. And the person who was helping us just looked, A, scared and B, she was like, oh, I hope they say within, like the next minute that the kid has been found. And they say, no more Code Adam. And the person came back on and said, you know, child has been found. No more Code Adam. But I didn't know that's what it meant or how it came to be.
- [25:12]
A
Yeah, it's related to Adam Walsh.
- [25:14]
B
And his dad is still really active today in.
- [25:17]
A
Yeah, he's been incredibly active. He's been instrumental in catching Some of the worst criminals in American history. And through his show and his just work, his advocacy work, he really made it his life's work to not allow this to happen to other people.
- [25:32]
B
We're so lucky to have you to teach us all of these things. So your students usually vote and say they think that the sex offender registry is something that should continue to. To happen. Yeah, yeah, I'm. I'm not gonna lie. I've looked at ours in our neighborhood. We live exactly one mile from a school, and I have looked, and one thing that I was actually surprised. I kind of assumed I would see an address and a name, but it also has a photograph of the person, and I just didn't know that was a piece of it. And, yeah, that's a.
- [26:06]
A
That's. That's so that you can identify them and stay away from them and know if it's your neighbor.
- [26:11]
B
We could get into a whole side topic right now about how this should be implemented for domestic violence. I mean, there was just a case last week of a woman who went live on TikTok and said, my husband and I are about to get divorced. He's handling it so well. And three days later, he killed her and killed himself. Yeah. Another person went on a. Like, I'm dating this guy. Is he a douchebag? And put up his picture, and nobody responded like, yes, you should not date him. But she immediately got called by the police, and they were like, we're looking for this person. So she helped them apprehend someone just by being like, hey, should I be worried about this guy? Anyway, I now think there should be a domestic violence registry, like the sex offender registry.
- [26:57]
A
The thing is now in Oregon and many states, only tier 3. I don't know if that's a federal law. Only tier 3 offenders register are shown on the registry. They all register, but they're only shown on the registry if they are tier three, which means they are the most likely to reoffend and the most dangerous. So you don't see. Listen, there are people on the sex offender registry for doing things like mooning people, urinating in public. I mean, very few of those. Right? There's very few of them. But there are those cases of things where people were stupid and it was not acceptable behavior and it was inappropriate. But is it someone that you would want to be fearful of in your community? Are they likely to do it again? Or were they 19 and dumb, you know, and drunk? So I'm not saying that's an excuse, but that's what it's just such a huge range on the registry that they really assess who is actually somebody the public needs to be notified about.
- [27:52]
B
It's interesting to think about what Tier 3, quote unquote, looks like because I have so many thoughts about why would this person not be in jail if it's something that is as horrible as I'm thinking it could be, or a treatment center or. Um, yeah. Also Tier one makes me think too about statutory rape cases where someone might be 18 and 17. Like, I'm not worried about that for my child's safety at all, but I know that those people sometimes also have to. To register.
- [28:24]
A
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Statutory rape. And yep. I think what you see, it's really interesting because what you see when you look at someone now, they'll give you major descriptions. There'll be a picture, date of birth, age, name, all of their aliase, just where they live. Exactly. And tattoos and scars and other pertinent descriptions, their conviction date and what type of offense it was. So it really shows. Like, for example, someone I looked at earlier today when I was just coming up with examples, had two different counts of rape. So they're a tier three offender because they raped people more than once.
- [29:03]
B
Yeah. Tier three here says sexual act with another by force or threat. Rape, aggravated sexual assault or child molestation.
- [29:12]
A
Yep.
- [29:14]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [29:15]
A
The most dangerous or violent or likely to reoffend. Yep. It's very disturbing. And that's basically because they have the highest risk of reoffending based on the crimes they committed. That's what they determine.
- [29:28]
B
It was interesting. And I didn't take the time to look this up, so I'll have to do it after this. But to hear that piece that I wasn't expecting about how if you are a juvenile at some point that drops off your record. So if you're going to apply for jobs or you're going to do whatever, it does not show up as a felony. If you're tried as a juvenile offender instead of an adult offender.
- [29:52]
A
Yeah, that's so critical. The transfer to juvenile or the transfer from juvenile court to adult court is a different age in each state that they can do that. But yeah, when you think about it, it's like, okay, well at 15, if you're molesting a 5 or 6 year old, should you be tried as an adult or a juvenile? Depends on the case, right? I guess.
- [30:15]
B
And not only should you be tried, but how should you be punished? Slash treated slash. How do we keep the public safe from you in a way that is I don't know. My gosh. I don't want to think about it. Okay, so let's move on to just one other piece, because now my brain is. That's too much. Another huge part of this book that happens at the end is when Noah convinces his mom to help him with choosing death with dignity. He says, if I had. If I had cancer, if I had a terminal illness, you would assist me in this. You would want to take me out of pain and you would want to take me out of misery. And I thought the way he made that point was so unbelievably powerful, because as parents, our number one instinct is to protect our children from pain and suffering. I know, and he made that point, but it did make me look at and wonder about death with dignity. Physician assisted suicide. They call it euthanasia in Norway and Belgium, and it is something in Oregon that is legally allowed. There are a number of steps you have to take to be given permission. But I'm proud to be in a state that finds it important to allow people to choose how and when they would like to go if they are suffering or have something terminal. And one of the big discussions, and actually this was just voted on in Canada and it goes into law. I think 2027 is. Up until now, it has been that you can only request to have someone help you die if you have a terminal illness. And mental. Mental health or mental illness was never a component of it. And now Canada has said it, it is. And Belgium and Norway have already done that.
- [32:10]
A
Wow. I know. And two, it's very, very rigid here. You have to be within six months of death. You have to have been told you only have six months or less to live to request it.
- [32:21]
B
You and I have talked about this where my dad, unfortunately has known a few people who had Lou Gehrig's als. And often when you have ALS at six months, until when you are going to pass, you're no longer able to use most of your limbs. So signing stuff or whatever is not. Not an option, but you know it's coming. So my dad and his fraternity brothers were always like, we'll just figure out a way. Like, we will just figure out a way for him, because we're not going to let you know, a painful, horrible death be the way that. That he goes. But anyway, that aside, Canada has voted to say that we see mental health as a reason that someone can ask for assisted. An assisted death. There's an article in The Independent in 2016. The author is Katie Foster. So there is A person in the article he went by, Sebastian, didn't want to give his real name. Sebastian began the lengthy process towards euthanasia by lethal injection by getting one decision from a doctor. In psychiatric cases, three doctors have to agree to the procedure, while two must give their consent in physical illness. So they have to have three people say, you have tried everything and it is not, it's not helping you that this choice is the correct choice for you. Despite 17 years of therapy, he is still attracted to children. He told a show called 20 Minutes. He admitted having viewed images of boys and young men online, but had never committed a sexual assault. After a suicide attempt, he told doctors he was a pedophile, but said that they did not accept his self diagnosis. They told me, you're making things up. Move on with your life. I then spent four years in a psychiatric hospital. I saw eight psychologists, four psychiatrists and a sexologist. I even walked myself into the police station in 2014 and, and asked them to arrest me, to keep me away from the public. And all they did was refer me to another psychologist. Wow. So it never said. And maybe for his safety, or if it's a her, if this person was able to obtain the lethal injection. Um, but it was a fascinating article about the lengths this person went to to get treatment. And finally just saying, please let me die. I can't get better.
- [34:42]
A
How interesting.
- [34:44]
B
Yeah.
- [34:44]
A
I mean, the end of this book, his mom helps him to die. His mom gets a cocktail of drugs together, uses her knowledge as a nurse to help him pass away after he.
- [34:57]
B
Tried to commit suicide twice.
- [34:59]
A
Yeah. And. And she. He tried to commit suicide twice. And he was just like, I'm never going to stop until I die. So she decided to let. Help him have a peaceful death. It's, you know, again, like, I just couldn't judge that decision. I thought to myself, well, you could. What are other solutions? You could have your child commit a crime. Go rob a bank. Go rob a bank. Don't hurt anybody, but rob a bank and get yourself incarcerated. But is that the life you want for your kid? You could institutionalize them, but who has the funding to do that? That's not free.
- [35:36]
B
And even in the one treatment center he was in, he was a witness to someone raping someone else. Like, there are risks with being institutionalized and risks with being in jail. That might not make those options worth it.
- [35:51]
A
Exactly. I don't, I don't know what you do there. I mean, they. Did you look at anything about chemical castration? I know Dr. Lucinda Berry talked about it in the book as being pretty ineffective.
- [36:01]
B
I think I just. Actually, on a podcast I was listening to, they just mentioned that. That it was not effective.
- [36:07]
A
Yeah, I wish there were some options that could medically treat it.
- [36:12]
B
Dude, I didn't.
- [36:12]
A
I don't know. Did you hate that she helped him?
- [36:15]
B
No, I. I didn't. I thought, I'll probably get absolutely slaughtered for saying this and hate, but I. It felt like a choice that she made out of love and compassion for her son.
- [36:28]
A
Yeah. I just could not pretend that I know what I would do. And I felt like I could get it. I could see why she would help. I mean, it would feel like I could imagine you're staring down. Your life forever is ruined pretty much because of this person. And you will have to worry forever about him being your children, your daughter, anybody else, his safety, his security, and do you want to make a good life for the rest of your family?
- [36:58]
B
And you have to think, what if he comes to me and says he did it again? And that is something that could have been prevented now, can you live with that? It did feel very relatable, the conversation Noah and his mom had. I mean, Emily, I was like a hysterical mess in my car when I finished this book. But the conversation they had about he said, you know, will it hurt? Will I feel things? And her really coming up with, what's the best cocktail I can give to him that basically will do the job. Like, I don't want him to get sick. I want this to work. And, you know, it didn't feel like a rash decision. It felt like something he had thought about and she had thought about.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah, I. I think I distanced myself emotionally from the book so much. Ashley, I didn't cry. I know. I was like, yeah, that's. I'm at peace with that. I. I don't know. I just felt like, what an impossible position for her to be in, and she did what she needed to do, and. I don't know. I. I just. I. The world's not straightforward and decisions aren't black and white and all the time, and I. I just couldn't. I couldn't get emotionally invested in the. Whether that was, like, good or bad. Yeah, I was okay with him being gone, too.
- [38:18]
B
Oh, I felt relieved. I felt like he wanted this. He said he was going to keep trying, and the ways he had tried before had been unsuccessful and traumatic, and.
- [38:28]
A
He'S gonna be unsafe for other children.
- [38:32]
B
And have no quality of life for.
- [38:34]
A
Himself, you know, and this is interesting. You said, you know, you have a 15 year old boy. So thinking about that, I have a daughter not much older than the victims in this.
- [38:43]
B
I know.
- [38:44]
A
So maybe I came from it from a tiny bit of a colder perspective too.
- [38:48]
B
Maybe. Maybe you just warned enough that you were like, I'm just gonna read this damn book and get it over with.
- [38:54]
A
Maybe so. And I know people were very angry with the mother through the book. Can you tell me what are people angry at her for?
- [39:03]
B
Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think people were angry about what you brought up already with letting him go back to school and get hurt. And that people were angry with some of the decisions she made to let Katie stay there that one night where her husband said no and she still let Katie stay there. Like, it feels like you're not making the best decisions for your family. You're making the best decisions for yourself.
- [39:26]
A
I do think she had too much of that. Listen, I. I hope you're not a part of this community. I don't know, I apologize if I offend, but there's like this thing happening on social media about boy moms being like, I'm a boy mom and it's different, you'll see. If you have a boy, you love your boy more. I have a boy and a girl. I'll tell you what, that's frickin weird to be more obsessed with your boy. There's something wrong with you if you've got some weird relationship with your boy that transcends the way you love your daughter. The hell. So I got those vibes a bit from the mom.
- [40:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, and the dad called her out on it too. He called her out upon it repeated times. I think a lot of people that I've seen didn't initially like Lucas. And then when it came to the end, they were like. It really felt like Lucas was the one most trying to protect Katie and other potential victims.
- [40:16]
A
Yeah.
- [40:17]
B
But you know, the second suicide attempt is when his dad tried to just pay him and be like, leave, like go, go away. I will give you money to like just leave and leave us alone.
- [40:27]
A
Yeah. I'll tell you what, I think it was really lovely reading it and not being emotionally devastated by it because I got to enjoy the Lucinda Berry twist.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah.
- [40:40]
A
Where all of a sudden these chapters you think are the son Noah talking? It turns out are Lucas the dad pedophile from his past.
- [40:51]
B
Yep.
- [40:52]
A
And I definitely had the open mouth like moment and I, I was so worried through the book. Here's the thing is I also, I had heard this book had the worst thing possible could happen, you know? Okay. I didn't think Noah dying was the worst thing possible at all. I thought the worst thing possible was that he was going to molest Katie. Yes. 100 I. When, when she started being like Katie's wedding, the bed and stuff, I was like, I'm enraged. You know, like how did he get access to Katie? Then I was like, is the dad molesting Katie? Like what's going on? I'm so glad that Katie was okay in the book. And I think my relief about that was bigger than being worried about Noah.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah, I completely agree. I was completely worried that eventually it was going to come out, he had hurt Katie and that is going to be the mom finally kind of waking up to like he is a danger. What you just said about Lucas made me realize. I read an article and it was a 37 year study and I will link this article about if sexual offending runs in families. And it said that the biological sons. So not daughters. Biological sons of a sex offender were five times more likely than the norm to commit sex offenses. But if they had maternal half brothers they were only twice as likely. So it said there is a genetic component. Anyway. 37 year study.
- [42:25]
A
So if they had maternal half brothers they were only twice as likely versus five times as likely. So it, it comes from men.
- [42:32]
B
More. Yes. So from men to their sons.
- [42:35]
A
Wow.
- [42:36]
B
Five times a 37 year old study.
- [42:39]
A
I mean thankfully it's probably very unlikely that anyone becomes a sex offender anyway. Right. So the odds are very, very low. So five times those very very low odds does not mean it's a shoe in that you're going to become an offender if your parent was. But it just shows that genetic link, right?
- [42:55]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I think I read it's like 1% of the population are pedophiles. I don't want to quote that, but stop that. 1%, 1 to 3% it was like. And then when they said the number that was. That didn't feel right.
- [43:14]
A
1% of the population are pedophiles. Let me look. Dude, look that up. That makes me terrified. Think about how many people you know. Like I know 500 people. Probably through more than that. I've encountered thousands of people. But I know, let's see who do I encounter in my life. Like you've got all the neighbors, you know, that's 25 people. And all the people who work downtown, like all my friends and their families, all my co workers. There's 150 faculty just where I work. I know 140 of them probably we're.
- [43:51]
B
Never going to leave our houses again.
- [43:52]
A
I'm just saying if we know 500 people that we interact with, like 500 people, the doctor's office and the receptionist and the dentist and you know, like it just becomes a huge network of people that you interact with. So let's say it's 500. I would say it's 303 people.
- [44:08]
B
You don't even want to know the article I just read on the BBC that says 2% of Catholic third year pedophiles.
- [44:14]
A
Okay, so it's higher.
- [44:16]
B
Another day higher in the church.
- [44:18]
A
Great.
- [44:19]
B
I think we, I think we knew that.
- [44:21]
A
I think we did know that.
- [44:22]
B
Okay, I can't find it right now, but I'll find it and I'll link it for everybody. And if it's not true, I'll cut it out. If it is true. You guys heard me say it here and I'll link where I found that.
- [44:31]
A
You're probably right. It's the kind of thing. I will tell you what, this year we've, we've alluded to this before, but we. I've seen multiple authority figures who were trusted in the community, multiple in the last year who turned out to be predators, child sex offenders.
- [44:49]
B
Yeah, I, I mean I'm. When it. Of course I can't find it, but I'll just. In the same article, it talked about that these people are your teachers, your coaches that get close to children intentionally because they're, they want to have that close relationship with them.
- [45:05]
A
Yeah, my, that's what. My kid was taking classes from somebody for a sport and he turned out to be luring young girls, minor girls, I mean. And I don't know the conditions and I'm not speaking about that case in particular, but I guess I just talked myself into that. A 1% sounds right.
- [45:24]
B
Like actually I do know a handful. So that does actually now when I.
- [45:28]
A
Start listing what I have found out, and that's just the ones we know about. Think about how many there are that are behind closed doors. You have no idea, right?
- [45:35]
B
Absolutely. And yeah.
- [45:38]
A
Can I tell you, Can I tell you something that I know about child pornography? That's cool. Maybe I shouldn't tell this because we don't want anyone listening who's a predator to know that you said it's cool. We want them to get caught. I know apps like Snapchat, for example, like sharing apps and social media type of apps. If you send child pornography, it automatically and instantly informs law enforcement.
- [46:04]
B
Oh, good.
- [46:05]
A
Isn't that cool?
- [46:06]
B
Yes.
- [46:07]
A
Yeah. So Snapchat. You Snapchat your friend a kiddie porn pic? Guess who else gets a hold of that? The da.
- [46:13]
B
I mean, you and I have had a whole conversation about these types of things and teenagers and we. I have an app on Hunter's phone and on my phone that if he were to get anything that seems like one of his friends is talking about suicide, or it seems like it's a child pornography thing, I get an alert on my phone.
- [46:32]
A
What is it?
- [46:34]
B
Of course I can't bark. Yes, Bark.
- [46:37]
A
Yeah, I've heard of that.
- [46:39]
B
Yes. Worth every penny. Worth every penny. Awkward to have conversations with your kids sometimes because we've had false, definite false alarms. But I just feel like it's a good, tiny way to help keep them safe and using, you know, social media and texting in a responsible way.
- [46:55]
A
I feel like you'd get alerts all the time that are like, okay, I saw that you were talking about killing your mom again. Are you going to kill your mom? Oh, Mom, I was just saying I want to kill you.
- [47:08]
B
Yeah, dad, he did have a very big back and forth with me about my job, which is this with you. He's like, mom, do you know how much stuff would show up on your phone? I'm like, buddy, like, I'd be in jail tomorrow at like.
- [47:21]
A
The things we talk about are absolutely disgusting. Maybe that is why I didn't react more emotionally to saving Noah. It's because I'm dead inside from doing this. Do you think that could be it?
- [47:32]
B
I think that's it right there. I think this was. This was the test. Does Emily have heart or a soul?
- [47:39]
A
Do I have a soul anymore? No, not really. This was a funny read. It was fun and funny, but for making us laugh.
- [47:48]
B
Lucinda, there are full support groups for this book of humans who have, like, need other people to talk with. Wait. The one last thing that I did think, just made me think of my kids, is when he's peacefully passing away and music is playing and she realizes it's a playlist he made for her. And I just thought, for what assholes our kids can be, they're pretty damn sweet.
- [48:14]
A
They love their mamas.
- [48:16]
B
He thought to do that for her, to help her have more peace in the moment.
- [48:20]
A
It's a heartbreaking. It's a heartbreaking and heart wrenching book. I know that Lucinda Barry has had a lot of people talk to her and be really impacted and moved in various ways, both good and bad by this book. I know it has really Created even, like, challenge for her, because as a clinical psychologist, you know, they want to talk to her about it, their experiences with it.
- [48:43]
B
I do think it's the ultimate. When she helps her son pass away peacefully. Like, what do you think you would do? We talk about that all the time. And this is one time I can unequivocally say, I have no clue.
- [48:55]
A
No clue, no idea. Don't. I hope I don't find out.
- [48:58]
B
I hope I don't find out, too.
- [49:00]
A
I'll just say that reading this too, because, you know, she uses so much of truth and how things really generally play out in her writing. I. I am so grateful that my son has already had crushes on girls his own age. Robust ones. Like, that's good. I hope you're telling the truth. You actually like her, right? You like her. Like, like her. It's okay if you like a boy. I don't care. But just, do you like someone your own age?
- [49:28]
B
You had to kiss somebody. Who would it be?
- [49:31]
A
Please say a classmate.
- [49:32]
B
Please say.
- [49:34]
A
Please say a classmate.
- [49:37]
B
Oh, maybe we can chat with Lucinda a little bit about this. But with you saying that makes me think maybe she's just done talking about it. You know, she might have had enough.
- [49:47]
A
Let's give her a. Let's give her a pass for a.
- [49:49]
B
Pass and say, we did your job for you.
- [49:51]
A
We talked about it. Yeah, let's just be like, don't listen to this because you're going to want to correct most of what Emily and Ashley said.
- [49:58]
B
Did you even read the book, you guys?
- [50:00]
A
Yeah. They're going to be like, that was none. If that was my intention. You took away nothing. I wanted you to. Oops.
- [50:07]
B
You're supposed to like the mom.
- [50:10]
A
I did like the mom. I didn't hate the mom. I didn't hate any of the characters except Noah a little bit. I just couldn't wrap my head around him. It was just really hard to fathom. And I didn't want to. I didn't want to. I'm protecting my mental health by pretending it doesn't exist.
- [50:25]
B
So on that note, to close the show while protecting your mental health, what book are you reading right now?
- [50:30]
A
Just started. The Lake of Lost Girls. And I know everybody loves it so much. And I'm also. I'm also listening also to what the Nanny Saw by Cara Rouda. Oops. I'm also listening to what the Nanny Saw by Cara Ruda.
- [50:44]
B
Good job.
- [50:45]
A
And that one, I gotta say, it's very similar to, like, a Frida McFadden style. Like, I think Frida fans would like Cara Ruda's books. So anyway, I. That's what I'm doing right now is listening to that one. I'm almost done listening to it. And the Lake of Lost Girls, which I know you loved, right?
- [51:01]
B
You're. You're gonna love Lake of Lost Girls. It's fast, it's smart. I figured out one piece of it and did not figure out. Like, even when you feel like, okay, I definitely figured out one piece. You're like, but that doesn't make sense. Cuz there's a second piece that has to work into this puzzle.
- [51:17]
A
Don't tell me anymore. Stop it. You.
- [51:20]
B
It's not carrying anything away. But I'm so excited to talk to the authors because it's two people. The pen name's Catherine Green. So it's like us, they're like best friends and they wrote this book together, so I can't wait. And you know, it's set in like 98 or 99, which was our, like, we were kind of in our prime, just starting college heyday, so there were a lot of relatable things in it. But also funny you say that because I just started the Widow by Carrie yesterday route. Oh, good, we're both reading one of her books before retreat.
- [51:51]
A
Hey, listen, you and I should write a book together. Yes, but I'll do the writing.
- [52:00]
B
I. I wanted to say how. How? Because if Emily and I wrote a book, it would have to go chapter by chapter and people would be like, I am skipping Ashley's chapter.
- [52:09]
A
So let's write a book where it's about our book club retreat. Let's just see what happens at the retreat this year, and then we'll write a creepy book about it.
- [52:18]
B
And remember last year at retreat retreat, Lucinda Berry said she'd write a book with us. So we're just gonna say that here. Hey, Lucinda.
- [52:25]
A
Hey, Lucinda.
- [52:27]
B
Okay, bye, everybody. Go to Patreon for more comp. For more content. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening.
- [52:36]
A
For more content, find us on Patreon at the creepy book club.
- [52:40]
B
Happy reading.