A (2:14)

Somebody in the book was a nursing student, but I don't remember who.

B (2:18)

I think it was Casey went missing. I. Okay. I feel like when I got started in the thriller genre, I was really drawn to detective type stories, like solving. And this one felt like it had some of that. Like we were going to try to solve this case together. So it was less of a kind of psychological thriller and more of like a not who done it. But am I making any sense?

A (2:45)

Yeah, it's like, solve this unsolved mystery. And there. I mean, basically, it's a little bit like the Ashley Winstead one that we talked about with crime solvers. And this is similar. And I think this is such a popular thing and has been even more popularized by social media. And so there's more outlets than ever for people to get involved in, like, trying to help uncover evidence or identify what happened in a case. We have more communication than ever. So similarly, you know, it's the two sisters band together to solve their two sisters disappearance.

B (3:18)

It did you think when you were reading it, when is it, Jules? When the other sister showed up and said, like, I want to solve our sister's cases together, I immediately thought, she. She's up to no good. There's something there. Or did you think, no, they're really going to work together and there's not. There's nothing nefarious happening.

A (3:35)

I did not think there was anything going on. I just thought this was the setup for the premise of the book.

B (3:42)

Oh.

A (3:43)

But I don't think that hard about those things, maybe. So I just was very like, okay, here's where we're headed.

B (3:49)

I think I think too hard about them. So I didn't think anything. And then I was like, well, that probably means there is something, because I always miss it and I always don't know what's happening in any book ever.

A (4:00)

Yeah, you get lost early. I don't get lost, but I am very surprised by everything that happens in books. Always. People are like, you didn't see that coming? I'm like, no, never. None of it.

B (4:12)

Oh.

A (4:13)

I also.

B (4:14)

I also really appreciate kind of a messy. Like, Nick was just a messy character. Right. She'd had a dui. She'd kind of had these random jobs. Her life was just really fraught with really just bad, bad luck and bad decisions. And I kind of love those characters because I feel like we all know somebody like that.

A (4:35)

Yes, I like that too. And it also is probably very realistic when the sister you're extremely close to goes missing and you are left to pick up the pieces of your family. I could imagine that your life would be challenging.

B (4:52)

One of the things when we chat, chatted about this in our book chat, which if you're not in the book club, join the club. Cause we have the best book chats every month. And this is totally going like, straight to the middle of the book. But you'll remember it was. Did they call him Skeevy Steve, the boss that they had at the strip mall who was just the, like, one boss we've all had or heard about?

A (5:15)

Yes. I don't remember what his nickname was. I just read this, but for some reason. Yes, but for some reason, all the characters names are escaping me.

B (5:24)

Besides Nick, they worked at the strip mall. And remember they went and they were like, oh, there was that guy Steve that worked there, and he like, oh, oh, no, Steve. You're Steve. You're Steve's not Skeevy Steve.

A (5:35)

No. Was his name Skeevy Steve? Because I feel like I would have. My husband and I.

B (5:42)

They call him that in the book because he gave everybody just the heebie jeebies.

A (5:46)

I love it. I know.

B (5:49)

Okay, so then we're just going through the book, which we don't need to do. But we. We talked a few weeks ago about infidelity on a different episode. Do you remember which were we talking about? A book or a true crime case? When we were talking about infidelity, we.

A (6:05)

Were talking about a book. We were talking about the Chris Watts case, and it was related to a book we talked about. But it would be a spoiler to share.

B (6:13)

Okay, but then in this book, there's Brad, who was like their uncle, but she was having an affair with him.

A (6:19)

That was so gross.

B (6:22)

It was so disturbing.

A (6:24)

Brad is a dirt bag. It's his dad's best friend. Like, I just. I have a daughter, and she's very, very young. But I just thought, okay, if I imagine my daughter grew up and was 18 or 19 years old, and one of Steve's closest friends started having an affair with her, I think, like, I would be having homicidal ideations. Like, that is so sickening and like, power dynamics. Because your whole life, that child knew you as like an adult, a trusted adult in their life. So then to capitalize on that and engage in sexual behavior with them, to me is like grooming. It's sick.

B (7:05)

Yeah, totally agree. And then his wife knew. Like, his wife knew what was happening. And I. I had to check myself because I was like, how could she not intervene? Like, this is a teenager. And you knew this was happening.

A (7:20)

Well, she did, didn't she? I mean, she called Casey and made her come and meet with her.

B (7:25)

Yeah.

A (7:28)

But to protect him and stay with him. O boy. I don't know. I mean, look, we see this. There's somebody I saw that's on the Internet right Now and her husband was convicted of, um. Or charged with, maybe not convicted yet, but charged with like 300 counts of child pornography. And it's like child pornography distribution. And I mean it's, it's terrible. And she's defending him and standing by him and she knew these. And she's like telling herself somehow that it didn't happen. So I can imagine that there are people who somehow do mental gymnastics to make themselves believe, like Casey seduced him and Brad and you know, like come up with some sort of explanation that.

B (8:12)

Makes it okay when really there's no scenario where an adult man who has a power dynamic with a teenager is. There's not a teenager that's seducing a 50 year old man.

A (8:24)

No. It's just really bizarre.

B (8:26)

Yeah.

A (8:27)

But I thought it was a really good part of the plot because they had to explain why Brad was so sketchy and really make you think that he could be a suspect and then make you think that his wife could be a suspect. Like, I think she did a really nice job in this book of making everybody suspicious.

B (8:46)

Yeah. And bringing in some. I mean, we all love a creepy kid and there was only that one part in the book. But when the kid brought the note over to her that said basically like, stop asking questions, I was like, oh my gosh, like on a playground, a little kid. And then we didn't find out for a long time who that note was from or why she got it. I loved that.

A (9:06)

I know. Were you surprised when Casey was alive?

B (9:10)

Oh, 100%. Were you?

A (9:13)

Yeah. Oh yeah, totally. Well, partly. I had to suspend belief a bit there because she was like a town over, like she was a car drive away. And I just sort of thought this was so high profile. I can't imagine like someone going missing from here. And then they pop up one town over, you know, in Klamath Falls or something and they've got, they've cut their hair, but they're working publicly and nobody being like, are you not the missing woman?

B (9:50)

I too had to suspend some belief there. And I don't know if you read. So Jen Ryland, R Y L A N D. She does these really great synopsis and she has spoilers and at the end she, she always has questions. And basically her main question for this book was like, how would this ever be possible?

A (10:10)

That part of it?

B (10:12)

Yeah, just like there. You couldn't be one town owner over and not run into someone.

A (10:17)

No, I just, I feel like if they had been like, I'm in Oregon, in southern Oregon. If they had been like, your missing sister has been spotted and popped up, and she's living in the middle of nowhere, Canada, then maybe I'd be like, okay, maybe their national news wasn't showing as much of this, you know, because it's outside of the US or like, okay, maybe, but like, Maura Murray, do we think she's, like, working in the next town over? I just. I have a hard time believing that that's happening. And too, just like, same voice, same face, just a haircut.

B (10:55)

Yeah. Whoa. And just physically being that close. Obviously, I've never lost a sister, and she thought moving to this house away from her was a way of protecting her sister. But I don't. I don't know. Just having that much proximity to my family, knowing that they thought I was dead or missing, I don't think I could pull that off.

A (11:17)

I know. Well. And. Yeah, just the heartbreak of that. And even if you're. If your sister. The other thing is the. The decision making there, like, I feel like the sister drunk driving and killing Jules. Maybe there is. That would be something that's worth being accountable for. Does that make sense? Like, you're not going to go to prison for the rest of your life for that. So you can go and pay the your time and pay reparations for your life or whatever for that and move forward and like, learn from it. And. I don't know. I just. It was. It's an interesting response to like, hide the body.

B (12:06)

I completely agree. And then her. It's not like in doing that then her sister improved or got better. Like, she kept down this trajectory of poor choices and bad luck and drunk driving is something I. It's near and dear to my heart that should. I feel like people should be held accountable for and you can learn.

A (12:28)

Stay same. It's sort of like one of those things where, like, you did it and you didn't intend for the consequence to happen, but it did.

B (12:35)

Yeah. That's actually. There's actually a local mom in our community. And I can talk about this because it was in all the papers and she. About 20 years ago, I would say, got in a drunk driving accident, killed someone.

A (12:50)

Did.

B (12:50)

Did. Her time came out and now she's just like a soccer mom. We see her around all the time. And she learned from that mistake. But she, you know, did. Did her time and paid for. Paid for that crime.

A (13:05)

I know. I know. And I mean, it can't bring back the person. I just wish it would never happen, but I definitely just. It was just a A big mess with Casey and Nick. Like, just the whole thing was such a disaster. And then Nick kills another person, her now dear friend, the sister. So she's killed the sisters, both of them, now and again. Casey's like, well, let's cover this one up, too.

B (13:35)

I'm only laughing because on our chat, people were kind of like, I guess I can give her not the benefit of the doubt, but, like, one that was this huge mistake that had to do with, you know, addiction and bad decisions. But they're like this one, she just killed her. She's hit her, like, with a shovel or something.

A (13:51)

Hammer.

B (13:52)

A hammer. A hammer.

A (13:54)

I think a hammer. And, like, I don't know if that, that was necessary. Like, I understand she had a gun and she wanted to kill Casey, but, like, maybe this could have been talked through more first or, like, call the police. I don't know. I guess she didn't want her to find Casey, but knock her out, but don't kill her.

B (14:16)

Did you. I felt sad in the book. Did you feel sad, or how did you feel when she told her? Like, no, you're the one that hit her and killed her. Like, you were drinking and you don't even remember it.

A (14:27)

I was like, oh, she didn't, she didn't really say it, did she? Or she. Maybe she kind of did she tell her. But I know Nick figured it out.

B (14:37)

Yeah. Whatever it was that I. That just felt heartbreaking.

A (14:41)

Yeah, it's really horrible. I mean, poor everybody was a victim of Nick in this story.

B (14:49)

And Brad, who's a piece of.

A (14:51)

And Brad the piece of.

B (14:53)

But the other girl lying about her mom having cancer.

A (14:57)

Yeah. Why did she do that again?

B (15:00)

Because she. So she was trying to help her, quote, unquote, solve the case. Right. But not obviously, because she didn't want to be found out. So she just kept saying her mom had cancer because she'd be like, I can't meet with you. I have to go to my mom's treatment or whatever. And then they found the hair in the car, so she went to go see her, and her mom was home, and she's like, oh, I thought you were at, you know, treatment. And she's like, I've been in remission for years.

A (15:24)

I knew that part, but I just couldn't remember why she was lying. I, I, I feel like they were all just screwed up, you know, a life just so tainted by trauma.

B (15:35)

Yeah, it was a really good throwback. When she found the CD that had, like, writing on it, I was like, oh, the hours I Used to spend with tapes and CDs doing that exact same thing.

A (15:48)

Yeah. What do you think happened to Maura? Maura Murray?

B (15:57)

I don't know. I don't. I was looking to see. I guess there was some behavior in the few days before she went missing that was a little bit unusual. Like she was searching online for directions to go to Vermont, called about a condo rental somewhere else. None of those seem really weird to me. I don't.

A (16:20)

I don't know.

B (16:21)

What do you think? I can't imagine. She just walked off into the sunset.

A (16:26)

It's just so bizarre. And, I mean, I guess that's why this case has so much attention. But what's weird about it is she did do some strange things and seemed to be going through a hard time and then did say she was leaving and tell everyone she was going to be gone. And there was a death in the family when there was nothing. That was not the case. And she, like, took all of her. She was kind of spiraling, like. Like, okay, she used a stolen credit card in the days before, too, so. So she stole a credit card and ordered a bunch of food. Just weird stuff. Like, she. She was zoned out at work one time, and her supervisor, like, reported just before having to, like, escort her back to her home because something was wrong with her. So it's like, I wonder if she had a men crisis and walked off into the woods, like, and is gone because of the elements somewhere. I don't know.

B (17:30)

Well, and that it was not a car crash. Like, it was just a single incident, Single vehicle in a snowbank. Right. It's not like she got in an accident. It's almost. I don't know if she wanted it to look staged or just put her car in and someone did see who they think was her and offered to help. And she said that AAA had already been called, but AAA had not been called.

A (17:56)

Right. Like, maybe she was up to something she shouldn't have been up to and was not in her right mind and. Yeah, but, you know, wandered off somewhere or maybe somebody did come and find a, you know, happen upon an opportunity. You know, I hate to think that, but it's like, maybe there was foul play because somebody just was like, oh, look, here's this young woman.

B (18:24)

It's so hard for me to believe if it was the elements, because it was snowing, because there was wine found in her car, like in the driver's side. I guess there was some splattered on the ceiling. Like, let's say she was in a crisis. Walked off and unfortunately died because of the elevator. The elements. It's so hard for me to believe they wouldn't have found a body. I know, like how far could you get if it were the elements that were going to kill you? How long could you survive? And really how far could you get?

A (18:55)

Right. And could, I mean, is it possible, is it possible that she. Okay, this is really far fetched, but she accepted a ride from somebody else who came along and got out somewhere else and did succumb to elements somewhere or some, something like that, but is, you know, fell into a ditch. It's like that there's those missing people who like fall into the swamps and things like, I don't know, you know, the sometimes terrain is so complex. Like is that possible.

B (19:32)

Or did she get in a car with someone else intentionally and go somewhere else and is still right amongst us? Like why do we talk about these cases in these tidbits when we could have been like, we should do this case.

A (19:46)

Well, I feel like this has been covered sufficiently in the media. Like if you haven't watched the disappearance of Maura Murray, like six part documentary, that's a great thing to watch. But yeah, I mean she was so. She was drinking heavily, she had pulled a lot of cash out of her atm, she had told everyone she was going to be gone. Yeah. There's all these strange reports of was she going somewhere or not and was she with someone else or not. She was alone on the closed circuit TV that they did have. But yeah, I mean it's apparently timeline wise. I mean supposedly it's that Maura Murray was asked by the neighbor if she needed help and she said no. And within 10 minutes the police officer was there and she was gone. It just makes me think she didn't leave on foot. Like they would have seen tracks.

B (20:39)

10 minutes.

A (20:40)

10 minutes.

B (20:42)

Oh, you would have seen something. There's no way it could. Unless it was like blizzard snow where it would cover it up that quickly.

A (20:50)

Yeah.

B (20:51)

So then that does make you think, did she get in a different car?

A (20:55)

Although if she was walking on the road or running on the road, there could have been no tracks.

B (21:02)

And it says there were cadaver dogs used and it seems like they didn't like have any hits on anything.

A (21:09)

Right. Oh my gosh, how sad.

B (21:13)

How, how. Oh, it would be so hard to be a family member of a missing person where there really is no closure at all.

A (21:21)

This is just a very, very bizarre one. It's really frustrating. Yeah. And I guess, you know, the dogs actually the tracking Dogs tracked her scent for very short distance away from the car, which is why they think that she got into another car potentially.

B (21:41)

It's really hard for me not to hang up from talking with you right now and get on Reddit and see what everyone is saying. That's such a good idea. Like, have there been any purported sightings of her? Have there? I don't know. This was 2003, is that right?

A (21:58)

2004.

B (22:01)

2004. So, like, also, that's kind of before, like, we weren't. I. I wasn't really using the Internet much then. Like, there definitely was not web sleuthing going on. There weren't like, you know, now there.

A (22:15)

There might have been, but it was just very limited.

B (22:18)

Right. And not like now where on, like, Instagram, even, you'll see, like, this person is missing. Spread the word. So it happens within, like, 20 minutes of someone going missing. There wasn't any of that.

A (22:27)

Well, and partly at the time, you had to be very intentional about finding those things. Right. So it's like you would have had to go and look it up on the Internet. It wouldn't have just come across your feed on every social media site.

B (22:39)

Yeah, true.

A (22:40)

And also, we didn't have smartphones in our hands.

B (22:44)

No. I mean, I was still using a. Like a desktop computer, like one of those Big Macs that look like the size of my torso.

A (22:56)

One Julie Murray, her Maura Murray's sister, started a TikTok account dedicated to bringing awareness. And her posts include updates, evidence, and tribute. So we should go look that up.

B (23:10)

Oh, for sure.

A (23:12)

And there was, I guess, a 2020 tried to connect Maura Murray to another murder, Brooke Wilburger, who went missing in Oregon and was later found murdered. A few months after Maura Murray went missing.

B (23:31)

I saw this interesting take. Someone said, when you look up Maura Murray's case, like, why is it labeled a crime? Like, why isn't it labeled a missing persons? Why? What do they know? Because you've taught me this. Like, there's so much they know that they're not telling us. So it's like, why, when I look, when I get the, like, public records, does this say that this is a crime that's trying to be solved and not a missing person?

A (23:54)

Is that under public records? Like, is it under a police report that it's filed as a crime?

B (24:00)

Let's see. According to Ellie is classified Maura's case as a suspicious missing person case with criminal overtones. Yeah.

A (24:09)

I mean, man, this is one of those cases where there is so much Information and also none.

B (24:18)

But doesn't it also make the missing half even better in a way? Like just to know this is Ashley Flowers interpretation of what could have happened?

A (24:30)

Yes. Or like just a kind of fantastical thriller version of it? Totally.

B (24:35)

Yeah, totally. Just like, I'm gonna take it from where it ended and then I'm gonna kind of write the rest.

A (24:43)

I wonder how Maura Murray's family felt about the book or if they were consulted because Kathleen is Maura Murray's older sister and she is an alcoholic and had been discharged from rehab that evening. And on the way home, her fiance took her to a liquor store and caused a relapse.

B (25:10)

I wish that people could see my face right now. Where did you just find that? See? No. Maybe we should do this case. There's so much information I did not know.

A (25:18)

I totally agree.

B (25:24)

So someone. Someone else here on Reddit said the crime piece. Is that just a few years ago and this was written five months ago, Maura's name was added to the FBI's ViCAP list. Does track crime crime scenes and missing persons.

A (25:39)

But that's interesting. It's. It's interesting. It didn't come up with any immediate hits because they. They add details into there where you're like, there was a bandana. And then another case in a different state with a bandana will pop up.

B (25:53)

Bing. Oh, fascinating. Maybe we. Maybe we'll have to do this case.

A (26:02)

Maybe we do have to do this case. Mostly because I just want to spend like an hour being like, well, what else could have happened? Even though we have no actual factual information to base anything on. But I think it is so fascinating. Should we cover it? Maybe just for our. No. We do, like, unsolved crimes. That's our thing. Right? So maybe this is one we do. Why not? Can you ever get enough of. Of Maura Murray? Because she should be found if. Unless maybe she needs to not be found. Are we doing her a disservice?

B (26:32)

I don't know. Let's spend some time on her sister's TikTok and see what she's kind of saying over there and asking for.

A (26:40)

I like it. This was exciting. We talked so much about the missing half. Mostly. Not mostly Maura Murray, but did you all. Did you all like the book?

B (26:51)

Yeah. Comment if you liked the book and if you thought Steve was gross and Brad is the worst. Yeah.

A (26:57)

We are sorry to offend. If you're also 55 years old and we're sleeping with a 19 year old, our apologies.

B (27:05)

Sorry if we made you mad by saying that's disgusting at all.

A (27:09)

If you are a grown ass man eyeing small young women, you've got an issue.

B (27:15)

On that note. Bye besties.

A (27:16)

Bye.

B (27:19)

Thanks for listening.

A (27:21)

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

B (27:25)

Happy reading.