The Push by Ashley Audrain

Summary

Podcast Summary: Books With Your Besties

Episode: The Push by Ashley Audrain

Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Date: April 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Emily and Ashley revisit the gripping psychological thriller The Push by Ashley Audrain. Drawing on their backgrounds as both avid readers and mothers, they dive into the book’s exploration of motherhood, generational trauma, the nature vs. nurture debate, and the unsettling "creepy kid" trope. Their conversation weaves psychological insights with personal reflections, examining the blurry line between maternal instinct and mental illness, as well as the societal pressures of motherhood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Impressions & Emotional Impact

• Both hosts have previously read The Push but found the reread even more haunting.
  • Emily: “I am so horrified by this book. I mean, it’s so good. And also, wow. Trigger warning. Everything bad that can happen.” ([00:44])
• Ashley notes the unique flavor of horror in this book:
  • “Not in the way like a Jennifer Hillier book is scary… but in a, there are really scary people in the world and maybe they could be kids.” ([01:22])

2. Creepy Kid Trope & Psychological Depth

• Ashley celebrates the “creepy kid” genre and acknowledges this book as a quintessential example.
  • “I love it. This is my moment. It’s why I made us talk about it again, by the way.” ([01:45])
• Emily remarks on the book’s emotional heaviness, especially due to multiple child deaths and raw depictions of grief. ([01:50])

3. Postpartum Depression vs. “Bad Seed” – Nature vs. Nurture

• Deep dive into whether Violet is truly “bad” or a product of her mother's mental illness and trauma.
  • Emily: “The entire lens of Violet is through somebody suffering from very severe, clearly like postpartum depression. What if it’s postpartum psychosis?” ([03:10])
  • “This is very much a nature nurture thing kind of debate. And also, was she or was this just a bad mom who looked at her through that lens always?” ([04:38])
• Exploration of intergenerational trauma:
  • Ashley: “We know from the book that the [main] mom… came from her own situation of abuse and neglect and raised without warmth…” ([05:00])
  • They discuss a troubling scene where the protagonist, as a child, asks her own mother to “hit her, just to feel something.” ([05:47])

4. The Attachment Thesis

• Emily references the “Harlow’s monkey” experiment to underscore the primal human need for parental love and touch:
  • “They died. They starved to death. They chose love so extremely over survival.” ([07:07])
  • “Attachment is so incredibly important… So her wanting to feel anything from her mother and the way she treated Violet probably screwed Violet up.” ([07:58])

5. Unreliable Narration & Gaslighting of Reality

• The book’s genius is in blurring the reader’s perception of truth:
  • “I really think Ashley Audrain did a masterful job here of making you confused about what’s reality.” ([09:32])
  • They discuss examples: Was Violet’s behavior genuinely violent or misinterpreted through Blythe’s fractured mental state?

6. Discussion of Key Scenes

• The hosts debate notorious moments, such as Violet possibly causing the playground death, or cutting up mother's clothes.
  • Ashley: “And then she went on and just told her mom, I’m gonna try to hurt… Henry tomorrow, and then came home with… his hair in her pocket.” ([11:35])
• The dilemma: Is this attachment disorder or evil manifesting? Nature, nurture, or both?

7. The Husband’s Failure

• Both hosts are critical of Blythe’s husband, Fox:
  • Emily: “You see that your wife is, like, spinning out here… Like, do we need a nanny? Do we need to get you postpartum counseling? He never took her seriously or her concerns seriously…” ([14:21])
  • Ashley: “He never seemed concerned for her well being… One of the lines in the book… that got me was when he said to her, 'Why don’t you start writing again?'” ([16:14])

8. Secondary Characters & Empathy

• Surprising empathy for Gemma, the “other woman,” who becomes an empathetic, understanding character. ([16:41])

9. Scientific Context: Are There Really “Bad Seeds”?

• The conversation pivots to real-life psychology and crime:
  • Ashley: “Are there just bad seeds? I never want to say bad kids, but, like, when you are 12 years old and you stab someone else…” ([18:27])
  • Emily (Dr. Reeder): “It is always nature and nurture. There is never just any, anything that you’re going to say, ‘Oh, that’s a hundred percent just who you are’ or ‘that’s a hundred percent because of what we’ve crafted you.’” ([19:02])
  • They discuss genetics, environmental triggers, and how similar traits can lead to greatness or violence, referencing serial killers, surgeons, and CEOs. ([20:45]-[22:56])
• Notable reflection:
  • Emily: “I used to think people either become surgeons or serial killers… maybe they’re pushed in the right direction to go use it for good.” ([21:30])

10. Trauma and Systemic Failures

• The hosts discuss cases of foster children who commit violence and “Eileen Wuornos-type” scenarios, reflecting on how trauma shapes people’s lives. ([24:19])

11. Motherhood Real Talk

• Both share personal anecdotes about how the struggles of motherhood—particularly in the postpartum and toddler years—mirror the book’s intensity.
  • Ashley: "I used to get flack from people for saying, like, I did not enjoy that period of motherhood. ... I just didn't enjoy that part, and I don't have any problem saying that." ([27:10])
  • Emily: “I really felt like I was gonna be okay until my youngest was five, and then I was like, okay.” ([28:09])
  • Both debunk “the days are long, but the years are short” platitude, saying the early years feel endless, though things do speed up later.

12. Support and Solidarity for Mothers

• Ashley shares that she intentionally reassures struggling mothers in her neighborhood:
  • “I always say to them, ‘I want you to know it gets better and it gets easier.’” ([30:27])
  • Emily jokes: “These are the best years of your life. Enjoy them. Now, the days are long, but the years are short. It’s like hazing. Like, they did that to me, so now I’m gonna pay it forward.” ([31:10])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I am so horrified by this book. I mean, it’s so good. And also, wow. Trigger warning. Everything bad that can happen.”
  — Emily ([00:44])

• “Not in the way like a Jennifer Hillier book is scary… but in a, there are really scary people in the world and maybe they could be kids.”
  — Ashley ([01:22])

• “This is very much a nature nurture thing kind of debate. And also, was she or was this just a bad mom who looked at her through that lens always?”
  — Emily ([04:38])

• “Harlow’s monkey study… They died. They starved to death. They chose love so extremely over survival… Maternal, paternal… attachment is so incredibly important.”
  — Emily ([07:07]-[07:58])

• “I think Ashley Audrain did a masterful job here of making you confused about what’s reality.”
  — Emily ([09:32])

• “You see that your wife is, like, spinning out here… Like, do we need a nanny? Do we need to get you postpartum counseling? He never took her seriously…”
  — Emily ([14:21])

• “It is always nature and nurture. There is never just any… It’s always going to be a predisposition, a genetic marker… and something in your environment is going to allow it to express.”
  — Emily ([19:02])

• “I used to think people either become surgeons or serial killers… maybe they’re pushed in the right direction to go use it for good.”
  — Emily ([21:30])

• “I did not enjoy that period of motherhood. ...I just didn’t enjoy that part, and I don’t have any problem saying that. I think it was really, really hard.”
  — Ashley ([27:10])

• “These are the best years of your life. Enjoy them. …It’s like hazing… I’m just kidding.”
  — Emily ([31:10])

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Major Timestamps

• 00:44 – Initial horrified reactions; warning to listeners.
• 03:10 - 07:58 – Postpartum mental health, mother-daughter relationships, attachment theory.
• 09:32 - 12:24 – Unreliable narrator, is Violet evil or misunderstood, nature/nurture in focus.
• 14:21 - 17:59 – Critique of husband, secondary character empathy, impact of family dynamics.
• 18:27 - 23:52 – Are there “bad seeds”? Serial killers, psychologists, nature vs. nurture.
• 24:19 - 25:47 – Foster care, trauma, and criminality.
• 27:10 - 31:10 – Honest reflections on motherhood, survival of the early years, and support.

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Final Thoughts

This episode captures the intense ambiguity at the heart of The Push, with Emily and Ashley skillfully balancing deep psychological analysis, personal anecdotes, and moments of wry humor. They offer listeners an engaging, reflective space to question the origins of human behavior and the profound challenges of motherhood—all through the lens of a dark, unforgettable novel.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Emily.

[B]

I'm Ashley.

[A]

And this is Books with youh Besties. Hi, besties. Welcome back. Today we are talking about the Push by Ashley Audrain.

[B]

We are, and it is a book that we actually have both read before. And spoiler alert, we are going to talk about everything. So if you haven't read it with your ears or your eyes, go do that now and come back. Both Emily and I had read this book within the last five years, which probably means 10 years because time means nothing. And we. We reread it and it blew our minds even more, I think in our reread. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[A]

You are correct. I had read it five years ago and then. And I think with my eyes. The first time. Well, I'm sure with my eyes. And now I listened to it the last two days and I am so horrified by this book. I mean, it's so good. And also, wow, Trigger warning. Everything bad that can happen.

[B]

I. It's one of those books where, like, behind closed doors, I remember where I was, I was sitting on my, like, little side patio when I finished the book, and I just thought that that book is absolutely extraordinary. And I have so many questions.

[A]

And it was.

[B]

Was really scary. Not in the way like a Jennifer Hillier book is scary or a Taylor Adams book is scary, but in a. There are really scary people in the world and maybe they could be kids.

[A]

I know you like the creepy kid trope. Here it is. This is Ashley's moment.

[B]

I love it. This is my moment. It's why I made us talk about it again, by the way.

[A]

I just looked. And this was originally published January of 2021. So we read it pretty quickly after it came out. So you were right five years ago. Okay, here's the thing about this book. I in the middle was just like, I cannot believe this book that, like, her baby died. Her baby dies. And it's like all this grief around that and yet another kid dies on the playground. And then at the end, maybe something else happens with a kid. Like, this is not a light and fluffy book. Like, kids dying.

[B]

Kids dying. And I. I feel like in my re. So I read it with my eyes the first time. I read it with my ears this time. And I felt like the author did such a good job of really in the beginning having me question. Like, I kind of couldn't remember, is this a book about her postpartum experience? Because in part of it, you're like, oh, my gosh, she feels so detached. And what could she be going through. And then really quickly you realize that's not what this story is about. Um, yeah, I feel like there's so many different, just really like meaty, sad, scary topics within one book.

[A]

Yes, because it is what the book is about too. That's the thing. Okay, here's my takeaway from the book. Yes, Violet might be a really frightening child. And I do think, obviously there's something about her that's wrong. But also the entire lens of Violet is through. Is through somebody who's suffering from very severe, clearly like postpartum depression. What if it's postpartum psychosis? So it isn't one of those clear cut. This is a scary kid for sure. It could also be that this is a kid who was basically neglected and abused as a baby and didn't form an appropriate attachment. Because here's the thing, right when the baby's born, when Violet is born, her firstborn, she doesn't feel an attachment to Violet and she doesn't feel that love. And she feels immediately like disconnected and it's burdensome and she resents her. And that is a really hard time for anyone who's, you know, having that kind of life transition that I think that is very common for it to be very challenging. But the problem was is that then she took it to the next place. Like her postpartum depression maybe or her own messed up childhood led her to the next place of then letting Violet scream hysterically in her crib for two hours when she would wake up from a nap. And this is not like cry it out to go to sleep. And certainly like two hours of that hysterical, like hiccup and crying. I mean, that was disturbing. So Violet becoming a bad kid. This is very much a nature nurture thing kind of debate. And also, was she or was this just a bad mom who looked at her through that lens always what?

[B]

And we know from the book that the mom life, right, that's her name, came from her own situation of abuse and neglect and raised without warmth or the things that we know children need to not only survive, but thrive. And part of me also in reading this book, looks at did she did. Could part of her have also manifested this really toxic, negative initial relationship she had. Cause she had convinced herself it felt like even before Violet was born, like, there's no way I could be a good mom. There's no possible way I could be a good mom. Right? So what.

[A]

And what was modeled to her and what she was used to was a mom who was really neglectful yeah.

[B]

And do. Do you remember the part in the book or did you. From yesterday where she asked where. When she's a little girl, she goes into the. Her mom's room and her mom is asleep or. No, her mom. Something. Her mom was in bed, and she asked her mom to hit her because her mom had hit her prior and she just, like, wanted to feel something. Do you. Did you remember that?

[A]

No. Did that happen?

[B]

It did, yeah. She goes, well, I mean, it's just like a small snippet where she, like, asks her mom because she just wanted to feel something from her mom because her mom had been so. It was after her mom had gone, and she was shocked that she showed up at the, like, Mother's Day event at school. So, like, you're raised in a home where not only are you not shown love, but the way that you're. You are wanting to feel something. It's. Even if it. If it hurts, you at least want to feel that. I know.

[A]

Listen, attachment is so incredibly important. I've talked about this before, probably, but Harlow's monkey study. It's really sad. Harlow took these baby monkeys, and he gave them. Took them away from their mothers. I know this is cruel, but it's really valuable for us, understanding human nature. He took them away from their mothers, and he gave them two options of a, like, surrogate mother. So they were alone in this cage, and they could either choose to be in a cage where they would be with a wire monkey mother. So it's cold, no warmth, no comfort whatsoever, but they would get all of the food. So there was just food galore there. They could eat, they could survive. They just wouldn't have that warmth or comfort. Or they could choose basically, like, a stuffed monkey that they could snuggle, like a warmth mother. So it's still inanimate. It still was not an actual, like, live being, but it was like a stuffed monkey. They could choose that, but they would get no food. And the monkeys chose the warmth mother. So they wouldn't get food to the extent that. And Harlow played this out because he was waiting to see what is the critical tipping point. They died. They starved to death. That they chose love so extremely over survival, over food, that. And they died. So I don't know. It's just that maternal, paternal, any kind of, like, parental figure and attachment is so incredibly important. It's our, like, number one driving factor to. Of need, you know, and so. So her wanting to feel anything from her mother and the way she treated Violet. Yeah, probably screwed Violet up. And Made Violet into a different person than she maybe would have been. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that the scene in the book was so powerful when the husband comes home and says it's 4:45. Like, she usually wakes up from her nap at 3. Is this what's happening every single day? And you just think about a baby in their crib waiting that long for some form of attention from their mom. But I mean, Blythe was struggling so much too. I. When she ran into that other mom at the. I'm not going to retell the whole book, but I'm just getting myself to. To the topic of discussion. When she ran into that other mom and at the cafe, who also appeared to be struggling a little bit with being a new mom. And she felt so connected to her because the mom's group she was a part of was like, isn't this the best thing ever? And she gave her her number and the mom never wrote her back. I thought, oh, no. Like, nobody's helping. Like, nobody's just saying to Blythe, it's okay to feel this way, but here's what you can do.

[A]

I don't. Yeah. Early on. Oh, I know it's hard because I really think. Actually, I think Ashley Audrain did a masterful job here of making you confused about what's reality. Because here's the thing. She sprinkles in these pieces where Blythe is looking at her baby, at Violet, and the. Her mother in law says, oh, look at how she stares or something. Right? Like, make some comment about Violet. And Blythe is like, she's curious, she's attentive, like repeating these words or whatever. And the mother in law doesn't say anything. And she's like, what did she see in her. Well, that sounds like postpartum psychosis in some ways. Right. And like two, like she's putting her lens on it. But also, is this a bad seed? Because we clearly have then this other, like, evidence that she is a bad seed. And at the very end of the book, it's like she cut up all of her mother's clothes, but also she hated her. And that's acting out. And she's a kid. Like, I don't know what to read into that. Exactly. It's. It's bad. But what does it mean? You know, she takes the. The sharp thing and she. And then Jet has it. I mean, there's clearly some, like, scary things she does. And then something happens to Jet at the end. Right. To her husband's new baby.

[B]

Right. Well, and some of the things that happen early on, you can feel. You can feel Blythe feeling confused and not wanting to believe maybe what she saw with her eyes or maybe what she thinks she saw, like when the boy on the playground died. And Blythe is like, I think I saw Violet put her foot in front of him and intentionally trip him. But also, it's a playground, and things. Things happen. And it would be so hard to wrap your head around your child, who's not even 10 years old, intentionally harming someone in that way.

[A]

I know, but I think maybe she did. I don't know.

[B]

Well, I mean, then she went on and just told her mom, I'm gonna try to hurt, I think Henry tomorrow. And then came home with a. Her. His hair in her pocket.

[A]

I know. And then she was also couldn't connect with other kids. It's like, is this kid just struggling or. And has poor attachment? And I mean, we know what that can lead to, right? Like, that does lead to a lot of problematic behaviors and choices that are difficult. And emotions feel really big in people who sometimes who don't form attachments appropriately. So is it that, or is it that she's truly, like, violent or. And. And maybe. I mean, the reality is it sounds like she did turn out violent. It's like, was that nature and she could see it, or was it nurture and she created it, or A little both.

[B]

Right, Right. But I thought it was. Interesting's not the right word. Fascinating, Disturbing. I don't know. That she decided to try for another baby after struggling with Violet to kind of like, prove to herself or to test the theory, like, is this a bad seed or am I a bad mom? And then she immediately attaches am. But also, did she like, did. Did she make that happen? Because. I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know either. I really don't. I'm so. I just. I'm so grateful I don't have a little bad seed that's out there doing scary things. But I feel so much sympathy for the parents who do. And I'm sure they blame themselves for things they did. Although if you. If you did leave your child crying for an hour and 45 minutes, you know, screaming in their crib, then, yeah, you should feel pretty bad about that. But if you didn't, then you know it's not your fault.

[B]

And if you like, she took joy in the. The part where she and her husband were in the shower doing grown up things, and Violet started crying and he was like, no, don't go to her. And she was like, he picked me over Violet. And I was like, no, it can't be a competition with your child.

[A]

That's. That was absolutely bizarre. That's the thing is. Screwed up mom, screwed up child. Chicken or the egg? But it. They both were so messed up.

[B]

Right? Right. Oh, it makes. And you know, just from being mothers ourselves, it is like. It's just interesting. As your kids are growing older, there are certain things they are born with that you're just like, that is nature. Like, that is exactly who you are and maybe who you always will be. And I can't imagine if those things that we were seeing in our own children were things that we really worried about for their safety or other safety.

[A]

Um, Can I just say, I have no use for her husband. Oh, Fox, no. Like, what a loser. Sorry. You see that? Your wife is, like, spinning out here like, hey, how about this? You come home early, and she's left the baby for over an hour screaming in the crib. And you know how messed up this is. It's time to intervene. Figure out what's going on with your wife. Like, okay, do we need a nanny? Do we need to get you postpartum counseling? Like, medications? Like, something is going on. Like, he. No intervention at any point. He never took her seriously or her concern seriously after her baby dies and she says our daughter did it. Maybe that's another moment to. To be like, if you truly believe that's not the case, then to be like, postpartum psychosis is happening or something.

[B]

Well, and at one point, she basically was like, begging him to just put Violet in daycare for a little while so she could have a break. And he was like, well, no, My mom, you know, raised me till I was five. Well, I'm sorry. Screw what your mom did. Your wife is literally saying, I need help.

[A]

I know. And then he's off bopping the assistant at work. And I get it. I get it. Families break up, especially after a tragedy like that. But he gets her pregnant, he doesn't actually have any of the respect or courtesy to tell her any of that or to answer any of her calls going forward. He. She just ignores her all the time. You are the co parents of a child. You have to communicate with that person like it's sick. And then he. At the end, Ha ha ha ha. Violet cut up all your clothes and I just hid it from you. Like, what a psycho.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And like, never seemed concerned for her well being. I thought that one of the Lines in the book that wasn't about her as a mother. That really got me was when he said to her, why don't you start writing again? And she was like, because I earned whatever it was he was looking for by, like, temporarily being a good mom. I was like, oh, that's there.

[A]

Yeah, right. I just. I thought, he's a loser. I did like Gemma as much as I didn't want to, because she chose to be the other woman. I loved the way that she was portrayed as a character who was really, you know, empathetic and she was kind to her even after she could have been like, you're crazy. Stay away from me. You know, when she pretended to be someone else for all that time, she. She just felt sorry for her and, like, understood and. And ultimately reached out to her in the very end and believed her and saw it.

[B]

It made me think. Which wasn't really written into the book, but about behind closed doors conversations, like, what was the story Fox was telling Gemma about who? Violet. Then lo and behold, she ends up calling not Violet Blythe. Lo and behold, like you said. Then in the end, she ends up calling her to be like, oh, maybe you're right. Like something happened just all the time, right as the ex being like, my ex wife is crazy and she's whatever. And then you're like, oh, but maybe there's a grain of salt or whatever it is to. Of truth to what you're. What she has been saying. Right?

[A]

Like you. Yes, well. And I mean, how terrible. I know there's always two sides to every story. I think we've discovered that so much with doing the crime podcast is that we're like, oh, that story is very compelling. And I know this from work too. There's just always two sides. There's always two sides to every story. And the. And you get a lot of context from that second side, even when you think you won't. Even when you think there's no possible way they could convince you. You're like, oh, you convinced me.

[B]

Okay, wait, I do wanna ask you this. Do we. Do we think. And this is obviously just our opinion. So I went down a rabbit hole of looking up, like, kids who have killed, because I like to do things like that. Are there just. Are there just bad seeds? I never wanna say bad kids, but, like, when you are 12 years old and you stab someone else, that was not threatening your own safety in any way?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

You tell me. Dr. Reader, please.

[A]

Absolutely think there are. I mean, there's a Hundred percent of everything. This is the perspective of the scientific community at large. It is always nature and nurture.

[B]

Always.

[A]

There is never just any, anything that you're going to say, oh, that's a hundred percent just who you are or that's a hundred percent because of what we've crafted you. It's always going to be a predisposition, a genetic marker, a setup through your, your nature, your biology to allow for the expression of something to be in a, in these different directions and something in, in nurture, something in your environment is going to allow it to express or express in a specific way or direction always. But it can be mostly one thing, right? So it's like, yes, I think there's bad seeds. I think there's people who are predisposed biologically, they are born. This is the bad way to say this. And this is not the opinion of the scientific community. This is just me, not right. There is something wrong happening in there. And yes, they're put into an environment and it's probably most likely going to express itself no matter what, but it does, you know, one wrong move and it does. So yeah, I think there are kids who are people who are born with something wrong that makes them have kind of messed up or off, I don't know, desires.

[B]

And then maybe it's a nurture or a lack thereof that kind of not allows them, but like, then they manifest some of these things. Like I, I, I do think there are people who may be born. I'm saying this with no degree whatsoever in any of these things. This is just what my brain says. I, I do feel like there could be people who are born and if they have early intervention and are given some resources and some tools and some mental health help, that it might not manifest in the way that if they are born and they are not given those tools, then you're kind of like, well, of course it ended up this way because let's look at the micro decisions that took you here, right?

[A]

And that's what it's really easy to look at. Any like, oh, okay, I'm going to look at Ted Bundy, or I'm going to look at Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm going to look at these prolific famous serial killers and I'm going to look at their history and be like, well, look at that. His parents fought all the time. Okay, well, so does most of these people over here. Their parents all fight all the time and they're not serial killers. But it's really easy to point out the things that went wrong that were problematic. Right. And so, yeah. Is it also possible that you. There are people who are born with these, like, you know, predilections to these. These desires. Right. Or these interests or a lack of concern about violence or those kinds of things, and if they're given the right structure, they don't do them. I'm sure. I used to actually think. I used to think, man, I feel like people either become like surgeons or surgeons or serial killers. You know, it's like the people who are fascinated with that kind of stuff, like, maybe they're pushed in the right direction to go use it for good.

[B]

Right. Isn't there something about that? Like, CEO, serial killer? There's something about that. I don't remember. Maybe it's just what you're saying. Like, you either become a CEO or you're serial killer. Like, you use what you have for good or. Well, I don't think that many CEOs

[A]

are good, but you either use it

[B]

in that way or in a different way.

[A]

But this is right back to my elevator pitch, the psychopath story. I mean, because that's what they. That's. That's the point is the perfect proportion of people who have antisocial personality disorder or like, would be classified as like a sociopath or a psychopath, that kind of a thing.

[B]

Are.

[A]

There are more, like, obviously more serial killers, but also more CEOs or surgeons. So it. There is like a personality type there.

[B]

I think it makes me think of that book that was also an article in. I. I'll correct myself in the show notes if this is wrong, but it was in maybe the New York Times about that woman, Patrick, who is a sociopath, and she wrote about her experience of, like, how make decisions every day not to do things that her. Her brain is telling her to do or like really actively trying to feel things like love and not being able to access that anyway, it just made me think of that.

[A]

Right. I'm sure that there's a lot of people out there, I mean, looking at teenagers who are engaging in violence, like, I'm sure those teenagers, if they had had a different path environmentally, some of them could have been deterred to not end up beating people on the streets. But also, you know, some of their parents probably are like, we thought we did everything and gave them every tool. And he's just like this. So there's a little both. And it depends on the person.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It.

[B]

I told you about this yesterday. But it also makes me think of that podcast episode I listened to about the Foster care system. This isn't a spoiler because it's right at the beginning, but this 16 year old gal who grew up in foster care ends up murdering someone, and she ends up murdering someone who had been hurting her. And the bigger discussion they had on the podcast is basically, did she murder him or did she murder every single man that has hurt her along the way? So it was just this discussion of like, she wasn't. This gal wasn't born, quote, unquote bad. She was born into this system and all of these people hurt her. So when it finally got to the point that she ended up killing someone, was that really her decision or was it a decision made out of all of these, like, micro things that had happened to her her entire life?

[A]

Well, that's Eileen Wuornos. That's like, she's the most prolific female serial killer. Actually not. Maybe now she's one of them, but she. She was sentenced to death. But if you look at her story and her crimes, that's exactly the story. Right. She was abused and mistreated and like terrified and then eventually like sort of reacted to one incident of. With fear after all of these incidents of trauma. So. Yeah. Was she like intentionally trying to be like, I'm gonna kill people? I. Probably not. It probably was more like a pathway. Yeah. So a little. Little of both.

[B]

Anyway, just a whole question about. I don't know, the whole book is a big question mark about like generational trauma, postpartum stuff, people who might just be born a little bit. Because Violet does make a lot of really destructive decisions and hurts a lot of people.

[A]

I know. Oh, okay. So here's what I wanted to tell you that I just thought was kind of funny when I was listening to it. Is it just. It made me think about different phases of life. And even five years ago I was closer to like postpartum to understand it. Right. But I'm far enough away from it that it's so. It feels so distant now. Like, there was a time period of my life when I had little babies where people would get together, you'd get together with women, and everyone would talk about their birth stories. And like, right now I don't want to hear anybody's birth story. I don't care. Like I'm. I don't want to talk about mine. I don't want to hear about yours, whatever. And like, there would also be, you know, talking about some of the topics she brought up in the book. You know, just like sleep and weaning and food and stuff. Like that. And I'm just like, it's amazing how much those things are just so your entire life in those moments, and they're just over and gone. And I'm not at all in any of that anymore. And I'm so glad not to be. I just feel like those are the hardest years.

[B]

I agree with you. And I. I think my sister now has a, like, 15 month old. And I was thinking about that because when her daughter was first born, I went over there a lot to help her, because in my bones and my body, I hadn't been there in such a long time. But I just thought, oh, yeah, those first few weeks are. They're horrific. They are so hard. And I remember her looking at me and she was like, why are you here? Like, why are you helping me? And I just thought, because I've been there. Like, women understand how hard this time period is, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I used to get flack from people from saying, like, I did not enjoy that period of motherhood. I. Not the baby part, not the toddler part. I just didn't enjoy that part. And I don't have any problem saying that. I think it was really, really hard.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think I. I really felt like I was gonna be okay until my youngest was five, and then I was like, okay. I think school years. These are great school age. I'm enjoying this so much. But those are hard years. Of course I enjoyed moments. But that's what she does such a good job describing is how miserable really Blythe is. But also she describes these moments of, like, joy and, like, happy and funny moments where they're laughing together about something funny that Violet said, and they're, you know, at the park having this moment together as a family. And like, yeah, those moments all existed, but still you can be deeply unhappy with it. And it feels like it's here forever. It feels like my life is just this. Those are the. The longest years. The old cliche. It's so funny because everybody says, like, the. The days are long, but the years are short. Right? People say that to you all the time, especially when they're little, like, oh, and enjoy this time because may feel long. Listen, I'm going to counter that. I think when the kids were below five, that the days were long and the years were long. It went so slow. And now. Now I'm like. I literally said to my daughter the other day, walking home from school, I was like, the. It went so fast. The rhododendron are about to bloom again. We just had that. I swear. I'm like, my father in law says this thing. It drives me crazy. I don't know where he got it, and I hate it, but I can't. I think about it every single time, and it's so, so 100% true. And I don't know where he got this. So I'm sure that someone's going to be like, that's a Walt Whitman quote. No, I'm just kidding. It's not. But he says, life is like a roll of toilet paper. It goes faster as you get towards the end. And as ridiculous and gross and bizarre as it is, it's true. Oh, I.

[B]

It. I mean, you know, the past year, how many times have you heard me be in, like, a panic with my oldest only having. I'm like, he only has this many summers left, and people are like, well, your child doesn't just leave. I'm like, but he leaves House. And like, he was just five years old yesterday.

[A]

It just goes so fast. All of a sudden. It just like every year feels a little faster than the last.

[B]

I will tell you, I think because the newborn and the toddler phase was so hard for me, I will intentionally stop women in my neighborhood when they walk by with a stroller and they just look. They just look done. And I will say to them, like, oh, you know, I just asked, like, is that your first? And sometimes, usually they say, yes. And I always say to them, I want you to know it gets better and it gets easier. And I think that's an honest statement. I think some things get harder, like dealing with big disappointments, like breakups, not making teams. But I. I just feel like they need to know you're not going to be this tired or this just like. I just feel like I say that to them, and I think it's a fair thing to say.

[A]

I think it's probably helpful. I am taking a different path. I have started saying, these are the best years of your life. Enjoy them. Now, the days are long, but the years are short. It's like hazing. Like, they did that to me, so now I'm gonna pay it forward. I'm just kidding. I don't do that to people. But I look at them and I'm like, oh, I'm So. You're in the trenches. Sorry.

[B]

I literally say, you're in the worst part. I'm like, you're in the worst part.

[A]

I know. And then you. You see these people and. And you're like, are you lying? Who are just like, I'm in heaven. This is my favorite. I love these little babies. I'm like, what? You're happy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you on the verge of divorce like everybody else when they first have a baby?

[B]

On that note, that's that. Head over to our Patreon for a spoiler chat. Check out our other podcast, reconsidered, Unsolved, and please make sure you comment. We would love to hear your thoughts on the book, the Push. Thanks for being here, besties. Thanks for listening.

[A]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club. Happy reading.