Podcast Summary: Books With Your Besties

Episode: The Push by Ashley Audrain

Hosts: Emily and Ashley
Date: April 3, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Emily and Ashley revisit the gripping psychological thriller The Push by Ashley Audrain. Drawing on their backgrounds as both avid readers and mothers, they dive into the book’s exploration of motherhood, generational trauma, the nature vs. nurture debate, and the unsettling "creepy kid" trope. Their conversation weaves psychological insights with personal reflections, examining the blurry line between maternal instinct and mental illness, as well as the societal pressures of motherhood.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Impressions & Emotional Impact

• Both hosts have previously read The Push but found the reread even more haunting.
  • Emily: “I am so horrified by this book. I mean, it’s so good. And also, wow. Trigger warning. Everything bad that can happen.” ([00:44])
• Ashley notes the unique flavor of horror in this book:
  • “Not in the way like a Jennifer Hillier book is scary… but in a, there are really scary people in the world and maybe they could be kids.” ([01:22])

2. Creepy Kid Trope & Psychological Depth

• Ashley celebrates the “creepy kid” genre and acknowledges this book as a quintessential example.
  • “I love it. This is my moment. It’s why I made us talk about it again, by the way.” ([01:45])
• Emily remarks on the book’s emotional heaviness, especially due to multiple child deaths and raw depictions of grief. ([01:50])

3. Postpartum Depression vs. “Bad Seed” – Nature vs. Nurture

• Deep dive into whether Violet is truly “bad” or a product of her mother's mental illness and trauma.
  • Emily: “The entire lens of Violet is through somebody suffering from very severe, clearly like postpartum depression. What if it’s postpartum psychosis?” ([03:10])
  • “This is very much a nature nurture thing kind of debate. And also, was she or was this just a bad mom who looked at her through that lens always?” ([04:38])
• Exploration of intergenerational trauma:
  • Ashley: “We know from the book that the [main] mom… came from her own situation of abuse and neglect and raised without warmth…” ([05:00])
  • They discuss a troubling scene where the protagonist, as a child, asks her own mother to “hit her, just to feel something.” ([05:47])

4. The Attachment Thesis

• Emily references the “Harlow’s monkey” experiment to underscore the primal human need for parental love and touch:
  • “They died. They starved to death. They chose love so extremely over survival.” ([07:07])
  • “Attachment is so incredibly important… So her wanting to feel anything from her mother and the way she treated Violet probably screwed Violet up.” ([07:58])

5. Unreliable Narration & Gaslighting of Reality

• The book’s genius is in blurring the reader’s perception of truth:
  • “I really think Ashley Audrain did a masterful job here of making you confused about what’s reality.” ([09:32])
  • They discuss examples: Was Violet’s behavior genuinely violent or misinterpreted through Blythe’s fractured mental state?

6. Discussion of Key Scenes

• The hosts debate notorious moments, such as Violet possibly causing the playground death, or cutting up mother's clothes.
  • Ashley: “And then she went on and just told her mom, I’m gonna try to hurt… Henry tomorrow, and then came home with… his hair in her pocket.” ([11:35])
• The dilemma: Is this attachment disorder or evil manifesting? Nature, nurture, or both?

7. The Husband’s Failure

• Both hosts are critical of Blythe’s husband, Fox:
  • Emily: “You see that your wife is, like, spinning out here… Like, do we need a nanny? Do we need to get you postpartum counseling? He never took her seriously or her concerns seriously…” ([14:21])
  • Ashley: “He never seemed concerned for her well being… One of the lines in the book… that got me was when he said to her, 'Why don’t you start writing again?'” ([16:14])

8. Secondary Characters & Empathy

• Surprising empathy for Gemma, the “other woman,” who becomes an empathetic, understanding character. ([16:41])

9. Scientific Context: Are There Really “Bad Seeds”?

• The conversation pivots to real-life psychology and crime:
  • Ashley: “Are there just bad seeds? I never want to say bad kids, but, like, when you are 12 years old and you stab someone else…” ([18:27])
  • Emily (Dr. Reeder): “It is always nature and nurture. There is never just any, anything that you’re going to say, ‘Oh, that’s a hundred percent just who you are’ or ‘that’s a hundred percent because of what we’ve crafted you.’” ([19:02])
  • They discuss genetics, environmental triggers, and how similar traits can lead to greatness or violence, referencing serial killers, surgeons, and CEOs. ([20:45]-[22:56])
• Notable reflection:
  • Emily: “I used to think people either become surgeons or serial killers… maybe they’re pushed in the right direction to go use it for good.” ([21:30])

10. Trauma and Systemic Failures

• The hosts discuss cases of foster children who commit violence and “Eileen Wuornos-type” scenarios, reflecting on how trauma shapes people’s lives. ([24:19])

11. Motherhood Real Talk

• Both share personal anecdotes about how the struggles of motherhood—particularly in the postpartum and toddler years—mirror the book’s intensity.
  • Ashley: "I used to get flack from people for saying, like, I did not enjoy that period of motherhood. ... I just didn't enjoy that part, and I don't have any problem saying that." ([27:10])
  • Emily: “I really felt like I was gonna be okay until my youngest was five, and then I was like, okay.” ([28:09])
  • Both debunk “the days are long, but the years are short” platitude, saying the early years feel endless, though things do speed up later.

12. Support and Solidarity for Mothers

• Ashley shares that she intentionally reassures struggling mothers in her neighborhood:
  • “I always say to them, ‘I want you to know it gets better and it gets easier.’” ([30:27])
  • Emily jokes: “These are the best years of your life. Enjoy them. Now, the days are long, but the years are short. It’s like hazing. Like, they did that to me, so now I’m gonna pay it forward.” ([31:10])

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I am so horrified by this book. I mean, it’s so good. And also, wow. Trigger warning. Everything bad that can happen.”
  — Emily ([00:44])

• “Not in the way like a Jennifer Hillier book is scary… but in a, there are really scary people in the world and maybe they could be kids.”
  — Ashley ([01:22])

• “This is very much a nature nurture thing kind of debate. And also, was she or was this just a bad mom who looked at her through that lens always?”
  — Emily ([04:38])

• “Harlow’s monkey study… They died. They starved to death. They chose love so extremely over survival… Maternal, paternal… attachment is so incredibly important.”
  — Emily ([07:07]-[07:58])

• “I think Ashley Audrain did a masterful job here of making you confused about what’s reality.”
  — Emily ([09:32])

• “You see that your wife is, like, spinning out here… Like, do we need a nanny? Do we need to get you postpartum counseling? He never took her seriously…”
  — Emily ([14:21])

• “It is always nature and nurture. There is never just any… It’s always going to be a predisposition, a genetic marker… and something in your environment is going to allow it to express.”
  — Emily ([19:02])

• “I used to think people either become surgeons or serial killers… maybe they’re pushed in the right direction to go use it for good.”
  — Emily ([21:30])

• “I did not enjoy that period of motherhood. ...I just didn’t enjoy that part, and I don’t have any problem saying that. I think it was really, really hard.”
  — Ashley ([27:10])

• “These are the best years of your life. Enjoy them. …It’s like hazing… I’m just kidding.”
  — Emily ([31:10])

Major Timestamps

• 00:44 – Initial horrified reactions; warning to listeners.
• 03:10 - 07:58 – Postpartum mental health, mother-daughter relationships, attachment theory.
• 09:32 - 12:24 – Unreliable narrator, is Violet evil or misunderstood, nature/nurture in focus.
• 14:21 - 17:59 – Critique of husband, secondary character empathy, impact of family dynamics.
• 18:27 - 23:52 – Are there “bad seeds”? Serial killers, psychologists, nature vs. nurture.
• 24:19 - 25:47 – Foster care, trauma, and criminality.
• 27:10 - 31:10 – Honest reflections on motherhood, survival of the early years, and support.

Final Thoughts

This episode captures the intense ambiguity at the heart of The Push, with Emily and Ashley skillfully balancing deep psychological analysis, personal anecdotes, and moments of wry humor. They offer listeners an engaging, reflective space to question the origins of human behavior and the profound challenges of motherhood—all through the lens of a dark, unforgettable novel.