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- [00:02]
Emily
Hi, I'm Emily.
- [00:03]
Ashley
I'm Ashley.
- [00:04]
Emily
And this is Books with your besties.
- [00:08]
Ashley
Interesting. Okay, we start with a big sigh. Hi, besties. We are here to talk with you today about the Quiet Librarian by Alan Eskins. So if you haven't read it, pause, go read it, prepare to have your heart broken, and come back and listen. So let's start with just a basic rating. We haven't done that in forever. On 1 to 5. 1 meaning I wish I never read it. 5, meaning I suggest this book to everybody. What do you think?
- [00:35]
Emily
Five stars. What about you, Ash?
- [00:36]
Ashley
100%. Five stars. I thought it was fantastic.
- [00:40]
Emily
Loved Alan Eskin's book the Life We Bury. I had read that, and you know that I, like, shouted at you a lot about reading it. It's really similar. It has a historical fiction component about the Vietnam War and also is a thriller, so has a lot of the same style. And I just thought it was so powerful and so masterful, and it bridges the two genres I love the most, and the Quiet Librarian and the Life We Bury. I learned a little bit more and thought a little bit more about the wars that he brought up. So the Life We Bury was about Vietnam, and this one was about the Bosnian war, which I actually had to look up. Did you know much about the Bosnian war?
- [01:19]
Ashley
I literally just looked down at my phone where I have my notes, and that I thought, is it too fast to just jump right into that? Because we got into this discussion, Emily, on our group chat about the book, about how really none of us were aware of what was going on, but we were all 12 years old, 13, and we kind of knew, but had no idea the gravity of any of it. What about you?
- [01:41]
Emily
Oh, I. I knew almost nothing. I mean, I had heard of that. Oh, yeah, there was a conflict in Bosnia, but I really knew so little. I had to. I Googled it to be like, I need to understand just the basic concepts behind what happened here during the war. I still don't grasp it well, because, you know, all conflicts, all of them, a hundred percent, are really complex in nature. There's so many factors that come into it. There's different perspectives on both sides. Just wanted to understand it to some extent. But I feel like what's cool about what Alan Eskins did is he cut through a little bit of that for us and helped me to sort of see it through the perspective of what it might have been like for some of the people. I loved it. Loved everything about it. Five stars. And I. I think we forgot to. We're going to spoil the whole book. So we haven't spoiled it yet, but we're going to spoil it. So if you haven't read it, go.
- [02:30]
Ashley
Away, come back and then listen to our interview with him. Because he. I won't. I'm not going to spoil a bunch of his interview questions, but I do think we need to talk a little bit about some of his answers just because they're so relevant to the book. And one of the things we asked him was kind of, did you set out for this to be a historical fiction book? Because it really felt like over 50% of it was more of like a Kristin Hannah true historical fiction. He kind of said no, but that once he started interviewing refugees and researching this, he realized to kind of respect it and do it justice, he had to have at least half of the book be just about her story during the war.
- [03:10]
Emily
That's the thing is, okay, you can disagree with me, but that was my favorite parts of the book. My everything I loved the most about the book was the chapters that were about then during the war because it's so unfathomable and it's so terrible, but also just gripping and I wanted to know what happened and what was the next thing. And she was such a powerful character. I loved the modern day part about the thriller part too, and the tie in. But he does such a great job with the historical fiction part. It's funny because he's a criminal defense attorney or he used to be a practicing criminal defense attorney, correct?
- [03:46]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [03:48]
Emily
And so he really has the thriller piece of it as more of his background. But he's so exceptional at the historical fiction part.
- [03:56]
Ashley
I think he just respects the process so much and the character so much that he, you know, the life we bury, if you haven't read that, he did what he has the character do in the book. He went and he interviewed people in these nursing homes and he experienced that firsthand. And same with this book. He interviewed refugees, I guess Minnesota, where he lives, they have a really large community of refugees. And he sat down and listened to, to all of their stories before he wrote this book and said he wrote all of Hana's war chapters before he even got into Hana today. He's like, I had to get that part out of my system and write the hardest part. And then I knew Hana as an adult would. I would be able to write that better if I could get the hardest part over with. But how, how unbelievably tragic and hard but real was the opening of the book, seeing her family slaughtered.
- [04:47]
Emily
Yeah. Horrifying.
- [04:49]
Ashley
Her brother. I thought I told. I told Alan in the interview. I was like, did you have to do that? But he did. Like, that had to be a piece.
- [04:55]
Emily
Of the story, because that's real.
- [04:58]
Ashley
It's real and it's devastating.
- [05:00]
Emily
Yeah. It was really heart wrenching. That makes sense that he would write those, because what he does, that's so incredible. That just. It's so powerful. He writes two stories that are interwoven but entirely separate. Right. And they kind of alternate chapters that both have their own surprises and twists within them, but it's never confusing. I was never confused. He does such a great job of that. It's not just a lot of books. I feel like a lot of thriller books, especially if they have two different timelines, then the going, looking back in time is literally just to try to help set the stage or explain today. But the way he writes it, it's its own story, too. It's both. It's yes, going to tie into today, but it's its own story.
- [05:46]
Ashley
And did you feel yourself? I felt myself. I don't think hungry or eager are the right words, but when I was reading her chapters as an adult, I wanted to go back to think, wait, what was it like? What's the next chapter gonna be. Be like when she was in the war, what was happening then? Because he just kept you so invested in young Hana, which also. Emily, how did he. How did he write both women and girls so well? He wrote her as a young girl being a warrior and her as a woman, so.
- [06:18]
Emily
Well, you. Did you ask him that in the interview? And I know I haven't listened to the interview yet, which is horrible. I was running behind, so I missed the interview because I didn't want to spoil the book for myself because it was so good and now I need to go listen, but did he say who his beta readers are or anything like that?
- [06:34]
Ashley
Shocking women. I mean, he's like, how do I expect to write women if I don't have women telling me that I sound like I'm doing like that this is their lived experience. Yeah, yeah. What did you think in the book of the way that Hannah and Aminah met?
- [06:48]
Emily
Oh, my gosh. Okay. It's funny because you asked me. I said I was about halfway done with the book. And you're like, okay, just. Have you gotten to the part where she meets Aminah yet? And that's like way 3/4 in when she meets Aminah? So I was like, no, but it must be any second So I kept being like, is Natasha Aminah? Like, I was so waiting for that. I. I liked it. But what's interesting is, I guess I was surprised by that Aminah had gone at such a different path. It's more realistic because not everybody is going to be Hana, and it's going to be like, I will take the blood of everyone who ever wronged my family. Like, I loved her. Her villain origin story and who she became and about justice. But Amina, and probably many or most women in those situations were probably more like, Aminah felt very helpless.
- [07:37]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [07:38]
Emily
And were just harmed and wouldn't have done anything to risk their safety. And I just. I loved their pairing, that one took care of the other, essentially, that Hannah took care of Amina. Well, Nura at the time. Right. Was her name Nura?
- [07:52]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [07:53]
Emily
Took care of Amina. But that Amina had the strength she did in the end, was really cool to save her son.
- [07:59]
Ashley
Yeah. We talked a little bit about how different their paths were after the war. I think Amita having a daughter and having a purpose gave her more of an ability to move on from the trauma. And maybe not move on, but she had more of a purpose, it seemed, than just the purpose of closure and revenge.
- [08:18]
Emily
Right. I loved that Hannah's story didn't ever become terribly unrealistic, that they. That he pulled her out of the war and where she was quickly. Because I think in some stories, it would be like, then she slaughtered 40 more men, you know, and, like, I don't know, just kind of. It could have gone a different way. And I loved. I just loved all of it. I loved the way that he said, that's enough. Get out now. Your legend is enough. I thought that was really powerful.
- [08:48]
Ashley
Yeah. Yeah. And I think when it comes to Hannah and Nora and the few men that she was able to, you know, end their lives in a way that was violent but necessary. We talked with him a little bit about how both of the men before they were killed by her, both when she was a girl on the hillside, and later Luca said, you know, I have a family. I was only doing what I was told. And was that supposed to make us feel bad for them? And the answer is absolutely not.
- [09:16]
Emily
He said no.
- [09:17]
Ashley
He said no. He said, no, you shouldn't. There shouldn't have been a body like it. I understand if someone felt sympathy, but. But no, because. Just because it's a war or whatever, and we've. We've talked about this, you have to still be able to recognize at some point what you're doing is wrong and figure out a way not to just say, well, I was just doing what I was told. But at the same time, I'm putting my hand up like this. How old was he? 14.
- [09:42]
Emily
I know I did feel sorry for him in some ways. He was very, very vicious. So I don't. Because here's the thing. He didn't have to kill the little boy. He didn't have to kill Denise. Right. But. And he did. And I know.
- [09:56]
Ashley
Okay.
- [09:56]
Emily
There's a book, it's by Browning, it's called Ordinary Men. And this is something that a lot of social psychologists and others, anybody who studies human behavior of any kind or is interested in it, recommend because it is actually the stories of why ordinary men became Nazis and were willing to kill Jewish people and other sympathizers. And there in one of the chapters, men are. This is really graphic, but men are being asked to take women and children into the woods and execute them, to shoot them. And these Nazis are. And they do. But the reasons they do, none of them are because they want to. None of them are because it's choice. All of them are. I was. Their testimonials and stories. I was disgusted by it. I was horrified. I didn't want to do it, but I had to. Because if I didn't, that's my job. How am I going to feed my family? Or how am I going to take care of myself? If I defect, then I am doing something against the Nazi party and the war and I will be imprisoned or become the enemy. So it makes myself have danger because I was told to by the authorities, you know, my authority, and I can't choose to not follow their commands. That's not an option for me. I was scared of being killed myself if I didn't do it right. So there's like these very real things that you think of that they report as reasons why they would go along with such horrific things. Now, Luca did not have to. Again, didn't have to pull the trigger in that situation. And so there's something different there. That was like a choice he made in that moment that makes him different to me. But I do think there is. We have to acknowledge that in the same situation, if we were 14 years old or 15 years old and put in this position, would we behave differently? And I mean, if we aren't careful, we have to be able to say, could I have been in a similar position or done similar things? If we can't say yes, then it will happen again. This is our biggest defense against the recurrence of atrocities is the acknowledgement and recognition that social pressures can put us in the same position. If we don't acknowledge that, we think it cannot happen, and I would never do that, and we cannot acknowledge that I could ever be there, then we have no defenses. If we go, gosh, if I got into this position where suddenly we were being asked to go kill people that were different than us, when do I recognize where's my line? Because I could, I could follow blindly up until that point. And I need to, instead of just assuming that I would be, okay, okay to say, no, thanks. At that point, I need to know. A direct stopping point. I need to know directly what is it I'm looking for, where I go. No. So it has to be like when. It has to be an earlier sign. Okay, let's just. We're gonna take this. Is this okay? Am I making you crazy talking about this?
- [12:56]
Ashley
No, go. Can't you see me staring at you? I'm like, keep going. I'm like, preach, keep going. Here's what I'm thinking about. And then you go off is like, I feel like some of this is happening right now with people being like, if I shows up at my door, what am I going to do? So whatever you're going to say, just say it. I'm going to mute myself. You go to town? No.
- [13:13]
Emily
Okay, well, sometimes, you know, I thought the staring could have been like, when is she going to shut up? So I do.
- [13:18]
Ashley
No, the staring was like, I love it when you do this.
- [13:20]
Emily
Acutely aware of my over talking, I do think right now there's talk about fascism and if you look up what fashion is, fascism is. It's authoritarianism. It's right wing super control of government, stripping rights away freedoms. Right? And authoritarianism means control without control, without mindfulness, reason, purpose, logic. Right? So there's concerns about fascism that have come into play now because of attacks on things like what colleges can say, that's a freedom of speech, speech violation. Right. Or attacks on any. What people can say against the leadership. Right? There's arrests of journalists, there's things happening that people say, wait, that's violations of our basic constitutional rights and freedoms. Okay, that's all fine, but we are frogs in water, right? So are we just sitting there and the pot is getting hotter and hotter and at what point do we say, that's my line, that's enough. I'm not going to be a part of anybody who supports this at this point. So we have to ask ourselves, what is that line? Where is the line? And for me, I think we already crossed it. So I might not be the right person, but there are people who support, for example, there are a lot of people who still, I think, support the concept of funding being for colleges, being reliant on if the college is teaching what you prefer it to teach or not. And I'm going to tell you this one thing that I don't think is known very publicly. You can Google this. Right after Trump's election, the Office of Civil Rights, which he had gutted and changed a lot of the personnel. So this is from the director of the Office of Civil Rights. It's a letter. It's called a dear Colleague letter. It was sent to colleges nationwide, it distributed everywhere, and it essentially said that the Office of Civil Rights had new guidance, that white people and Asian people have been discriminated against at colleges for years, that we are responsible at colleges for toxically indoctrinating people with the false narrative of things that don't exist, like systemic racism. And if you want me to go on a whole thing about like facts over your feelings, this is where, because I'm sorry, this is, this is one of my areas of study, right, in social psychology is systemic bias. And how in the world can you say that doesn't exist? Doesn't make any sense. But that was in the letter. That's written explicitly in the letter, right? And if you choose to not comply, this is guidance. If you choose to not comply, then we are going to investigate whether or not we are willing to pull your funding if you don't stop talking about things like racism. It's so unacceptable for a government to tell scientists what they can talk about and historians what they can talk about is government overreach. So the line for me was crossed already that that is not okay. And so I will not comply and follow blindly. But there are a lot of people who still support that funding can be tied to that kind of thing. I think those are the people. Anyone who is sitting there going, well, colleges shouldn't say hate speech. This is the other thing is you and I talked about this. The pro Palestine protests on college campuses. These are not students a lot of the time, actually they're professional, for real. They're local groups and local people who come onto college campuses because college campuses are open to the public and students. Right? It's both. So there are students involved, but they are also non student community members who often are leading the charge on these things. How do I know this? I work at a college campus and Then a faculty leadership position. I have sat in the room with administration including the president of the university talking about these issues. Right. The presidents of the universities in your state all talk to each other pretty much. Right. They. They all know what's going on. That's not to say that there may be a one off university here or a one off university there that is doing something differently. But it is a violation of the law of free speech to kick protesters with essentially any agenda off of campus. We have a top 20 LGBTQ friendly campus. We have had protesters against LGBTQ folks on campus. We have a free speech zone. They are allowed to come and do their protesting and say that LGBTQ people are going to hell. That is their right. We can do things like escort people who feel uncomfortable walking past them around. I see is a lot of students who are same sex holding hands as they walk past them. Whether or not they're actually a couple things like that. That's their form of, you know, okay, thanks so much for the tip. I mean that's. That's the right of people to gather and peaceably protest about anything that they want. And so the university being beholden to that is just an error in thinking. It's. It's a way to attack higher education because we don't want higher education. Because the more educated that you get the more open minded you become. And then you're more likely to ask questions and critically think about what's happening. It is your responsibility to ask questions about the information that you're getting. And if you think, well I am, that's why I'm on the side, then you're not.
- [18:31]
Ashley
But. So here's a question I have. The line was crossed for me a long time ago. But don't you think, no, that's not the way I want to ask this. But I'm leaving that in. So I feel like people will have a line and those of us who were already had our radar on it and see us moving past it because they already support the administration or the idea of deportation or whatever it is we're talking about. That line keeps moving because they justify a way to keep moving the line until they are a Nazi or they are doing whatever. But they've justified every step of it to meet their narrative. Right.
- [19:07]
Emily
100. And that's why. That's. That's what I mean by if you are really thinking that you could never be a part of something that's worse then you just allow the line to keep moving. The goalposts, the water gets hotter and hotter and hotter.
- [19:20]
Ashley
And self preservation is a real thing. Like, when you're confronted with something and it's. You really do probably feel like it's me or it's them, you're most likely you're going to choose yourself.
- [19:31]
Emily
Right.
- [19:32]
Ashley
Right.
- [19:32]
Emily
Yeah. Anyway, all of that is to say I had a little bit of sympathy for Luca in that moment, but he was. And I wondered, you know, he became a diplomat, and so obviously he's a very dangerous man. He killed. What was his name? Galicia. He killed that guy who was a. Kind of sounds like a garbage person, but if you're not a serial murderer. And then he came and basically killed Amina and to try to kill Dylan. So I don't think that he was a good person at all. And I don't think that he should be forgiven. And I'm. I'm glad that he died. I'm glad she did what he did, but I did. I do think it always benefits us to have a moment of. He was 14 years old and he was being told to do all of those things. Right.
- [20:16]
Ashley
But I also think that there are young men and women who make that decision. And I actually even think that this happened with Hannah, but in a different way. I think when Hannah killed the man on the hillside, so something flipped in her, and she was like, I am a warrior. I am like, this is who I am now. And that when Luca killed the brother and then kept on this path, it just gave him more permission to keep making these choices and to keep being that way instead of stepping back and being like, okay, whoa, I did that action. That was horrible. How could I move forward and not. It was almost like, well, I. I had a taste of it, and now I'm gonna continue to, like, this feeling of power.
- [20:58]
Emily
Totally. And I think some people. I. I mean, I probably overdo it with, like, social influence in some ways, because some people are born really bad. I'm sorry, but some people just are bad, and they are going to be bad and have bad intentions and we don't have to say. But also they were put in this situation, you know? So I'm not saying everybody gets a passion, but I don't. Like, I just. I think I felt the sympathy because he was a child. Yeah, because he was a child in that moment.
- [21:26]
Ashley
And clearly I felt a little sympathy, which is why I asked the question. I was like, oh, no. Just like when I was watching the. Do remember I was watching the Dahmer Netflix thing and I messaged you and I was like, I kind of Feel bad for Jeffrey Dahmer. Does that make me a bad person? And you were like, no, it doesn't make you a bad person. I'll explain why you feel this way. And, like, it's okay to feel 1% like, man, that sucks for him.
- [21:50]
Emily
Yes. Well, Jeffrey Dahmer, I know some people disagree, but I think if you know what, like, psychopathy looks like, like, if you look at antisocial personality disorder, like Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy, nothing to feel sorry for him about. Jeffrey Dahmer. Really, really sick, man. Really, really sick, man. You know, So I. That's why I tried to explain that to you. That, like, that's because there's a big difference here between Brian Kohberger and Jeffrey Dahmer.
- [22:14]
Ashley
And that's a whole. That's a topic for a whole nother day. Can we talk about the detective and the decision that he made in the end of the book? I just want to hear. I want to know, when you read that, what you thought.
- [22:26]
Emily
Well, I was actually really having a hard time with that last scene where she was going to kill him, because I was like, there is no other way for her path, for her to protect Dylan. And I understood she needed him to die. And it would have been really kind of fantastical and out there had it been like suddenly he whipped his own own arm up and killed himself on accident, you know, I mean, it would have just not made any sense. So I glad it happened the way it did, but I really was torn because I expected. But she's going to abandon Dylan, too, because he's going to have to arrest her. I was surprised, I think, that he was willing to go along with it.
- [23:07]
Ashley
I. I was surprised. So here's the thing. I didn't think. I didn't think he would arrest her, but I also did not think there would be a way that he was an active participant in kind of covering it up. And it really led me down this path of thinking about the difference between his obligation through his job description to uphold the law, but also his job description to uphold justice and to do what a lot of us would see is right. And in the end, it felt just for him to die and for her to continue to get to be with Dylan. But it was. It's a big decision for him to make. I don't know.
- [23:47]
Emily
Yeah, it was an interesting thing. You know, he could have gone the route of jury nullification, as we've talked about before, where a jury could have decided, we don't care that she killed him. It's all good. But I think. And he was. She still would have been away from Dylan for a long time probably.
- [24:02]
Ashley
Yeah.
- [24:02]
Emily
So it is a tough thing. It was a hard thing to think about. And, and you don't want to, you don't want to open up the precedent of people, individuals deciding what is justice in terms of death. That's the hard part is like, yes, in this case we can see why it was justice and that he would go along with it. But also you don't want precedent set that someone else is like, well, she was a raging liberal, so I thought she should die.
- [24:26]
Ashley
Right. I thought about you because of what you were saying with the. Our follow up episode book Will Bury Me, talking about the woman being taken out of the town hall and being like, if you're okay with that violence, then what about when it happens to you? And in this case, like, if I'm okay with him covering this up for her, then I have to be okay with it in every instance. It can't just be this one time. And I'm definitely not okay with that.
- [24:50]
Emily
Right. And I'm sorry, but historically where this came into play the most was that black people were being killed by white people. And, and people were like, it's cool with us, let's cover it up. And that was, well, it's justice. You know, he looked wrong at my daughter, whatever. Right. And so this black boy could be killed. And that's jury nullification at its roots. That's one of the issues with it is that's what it would have been used for regularly or was used for regularly. Like, well, they lynched a man. Alrighty. Not guilty. Right. Everything's fine. But. So that's what we have to be careful with that precedent. You don't, you can look at it that way. Like, well, he was a really. She was a really big liberal. She was speaking out. She was really dangerous to the democracy of America from my perspective. So we can kill her or vice versa. Are you fine the other way? Well, she was maga and she was, you know, harmful. We thought she was a fascist. We were gonna kill her. I, I just think there's a slippery slope there. That's why the line has to be really far back.
- [25:48]
Ashley
But in the end of the book, I liked it. I was like, yes. Oh, I know, I love this. I know.
- [25:53]
Emily
It's a good story.
- [25:54]
Ashley
It wasn't necessarily okay. There was nothing funny, it wasn't comic relief, but there was a bit of levity in the book as he was trying to do his detective work. And she was off kind of doing her vigilante stuff. And he would kind of be like, neura, you're really getting in the way of this. Like, I am trying so hard. But she held so much information private that he was not privy to, that she was making these decisions to keep herself saving and keep Dylan safe. And he was like, why are you. Why are you putting yourself at such danger? But I thought their dynamic. I just loved that part of the book.
- [26:28]
Emily
I really liked them, too. I could feel his frustration. And the thing is, this is the other thing that Allen Eskins did so well. He didn't make David some bumbling, dumb detective who couldn't figure it out. He made David a really good detective, actually, who was able to be like, Nura, did you really think we weren't. I wasn't gonna listen to the recording of that 911 call. Nora, did you really think we weren't gonna figure out that you were in that room? Like, he knew so many things that she was doing, but. Or Hannah. Sorry, it was Hannah. I. Hana Nura. Same person. So I'm mixing up one. She's called what? But the fact that he was able to make him smart but still in the dark, I loved that, too.
- [27:05]
Ashley
Well, and I love that in the end, it kind of kept you hanging, like, what is next for them? And one of our members asked Alan Eskins for a book, just about the detective. Just quickly back to the timing of all this and the war and the trials. I was talking about this with a friend while we were running. I said, do you remember the trials? Like, do you remember the war trials and, like, these things at the Hague? And she's like, I remember some of it happening, but she's like, no, because at the time I was in high school, like, I just wasn't paying attention to this. And now I think of my own children and the things going on around us. And I try to keep them educated and informed, but also, I don't want to scare them with things that are unnecessary. And I'm thinking, I don't remember ever having a conversation with my parents about what was happening during this time. I just feel very in the dark about it.
- [27:56]
Emily
It's really scary because you think about that, that kind of thing could happen somewhere, but it could happen here. We love to other people, and so we think it could happen here, but it could. And think about the genocide in Rwanda. We're talking about 300,000 people killed in, like, 30 days, and it was entirely that one tribe killed like 300,000. Here's the thing is, we know most of us are regular people that are like, I'm not going to take up arms and get a machete or a. Or a machine gun and kill my neighbors because they're on a different political side than us. But we are so, so divided that what if extremists do start this on either side? Like, that's where we have to be concerned. What if there becomes sort of this war against immigrants that turns into a war against Latinos in general? What if it's a war against anyone with brown skin? What if it's a war against anyone with the liberal agenda because our government right now is sort of vilifying those groups? I don't know. I just. It makes me so nervous when I read about these things, that this can recur. And we are. Are we paying attention?
- [28:59]
Ashley
And I feel like we can see small steps happening towards that. Like, small things that are being allowed to happen with ice and with other things where you're like, wait, this doesn't feel like anybody is stopping this from happening. And how. And I do feel like there are groups of people who hope it continues to happen because they want a reason to be violent, be whatever.
- [29:21]
Emily
That's the scary thing. It's like, okay, so we deported somebody without any due process, which is a constitutional right of everyone in America to have due process. Well, he wasn't an American, but he. He was here on our soil. That's still a right to due process. That's the thing. The Constitution protects everyone here, and we deport these people to a death camp, prison. And it's. What's concerning about that is that's fine that we could support that, because we're like, well, he's a gang member and he's dangerous, and these are all the reasons that he needs to go. Okay, but also, if there's no due process, we'll just say you're a gang member, Right? That's the thing. It's the gang. That's the precedent. You can't accept one instance of it, because if you do, are you prepared to accept the rest of them? And when it's your cousin, are you good?
- [30:08]
Ashley
Unless it's at the end of the Quiet Librarian, when it's Luca, then it's okay.
- [30:11]
Emily
I know, I know. I feel like I can't stop going off on tangents about it. But anytime that we read history right now, it just makes me think about now and what are the lessons to take from it.
- [30:20]
Ashley
Yeah. Abby Wambach. Said that at the we can do hard things. She's like, we have to stop looking forward. Like, what are we going to do? And we need to start looking back. Like, how do we stop it? She's like, we get in so much trouble with, like, what's next? How. How do we progress instead of like, holy crap, how do we learn from what happened and not let that happen again? On that note, read the Quiet Librarian.
- [30:42]
Emily
Yeah, read the Quiet Librarian because you're gonna have all these same thoughts and feelings. That's what I couldn't stop thinking about. So many things. But it's just an incredible story. Very well.
- [30:49]
Ashley
And listen to our interview with him. And I'm gonna make you listen to it by leaving some something for you. But I'm going to leave out the most important part. Allen Eskins said he never wanted to write thrillers or mysteries. Like, not only did he not want to, he was anti. Anti mysteries, anti thrillers. Like, I kind of think that's bs. I don't want to. I don't want to do it. And then he read one book that made him realize what a thriller could be, and that book changed it for him. And that's why he started writing thrillers.
- [31:17]
Emily
That's so cool.
- [31:18]
Ashley
So now everybody has to go listen to his interview to hear what book it was. Because the second he said it, we all were like, we know that book.
- [31:25]
Emily
Was it behind closed doors like us.
- [31:27]
Ashley
It was not. Okay, thanks everybody for being here and listening. Read everything Allan Eskins has ever written. That's our advice.
- [31:33]
Emily
K. Bye.
- [31:34]
Ashley
K. Bye. Thanks for listening.
- [31:37]
Emily
For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.
- [31:41]
Ashley
Happy reading.