The Women by Kristin Hannah

Summary

Books With Your Besties: Episode Summary on "The Women" by Kristin Hannah

Release Date: April 4, 2025

In this poignant episode of Books With Your Besties, hosts Emily and Ashley delve deep into Kristin Hannah's historical fiction masterpiece, "The Women." Throughout their conversation, they explore the novel's intricate portrayal of female nurses during the Vietnam War, the enduring impact of war on personal lives, and the strength of female friendships.

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1. Introduction to "The Women"

Emily and Ashley open the discussion by expressing their admiration for Kristin Hannah's ability to capture real-life emotions and historical contexts. They highlight their tendency to immerse themselves in psychological thrillers but make exceptions for Hannah's works due to their profound impact.

• Emily [00:42]: "The Women by Kristin Hannah is our choice this week to talk about. We both read this in the last couple of weeks, and we're very moved by it."

2. Kristin Hannah's Writing Style and Themes

The hosts commend Hannah for her authentic storytelling and her knack for bringing lesser-known historical issues to light. They discuss Hannah's talent in making historical events relatable and emotionally resonant.

• Ashley [01:13]: "She writes real. Some of the criticisms I've heard have been like, it was too hard to read. It was so sad. But that's because that's what real life was like."

• Emily [01:29]: "Kristin Hannah just brings to light those really interesting... issues from the past that we may not really think about."

3. Main Characters and Plot Overview

Frankie and Finley, brother and sister, are central to the narrative. The hosts delve into their complex relationship, especially after Finley's untimely death in the war, which propels Frankie into service.

• Ashley [03:26]: "Frankie and Finley were great characters. I feel like they really developed nicely very quickly."

• Emily [04:14]: "Her father didn't support her choice because she was a woman."

4. Historical Context and Representation of Women in the Vietnam War

The conversation emphasizes the often-overlooked role of female nurses in Vietnam, highlighting the societal challenges they faced and the lack of recognition for their contributions.

• Ashley [04:44]: "And how at that time it was just absolutely not acceptable for a woman to go to Vietnam."

• Emily [05:04]: "Just because she was a woman. That's the thing that's so crazy is that she served and saw so much trauma and did so much and then was completely not recognized for it."

5. Themes of PTSD and Aftermath

The hosts explore the profound psychological toll the war took on Frankie, illustrating the novel's unflinching portrayal of PTSD before it was widely acknowledged.

• Emily [19:08]: "Frankie was an absolute mess when she came back... PTSD was very real for many people."

• Ashley [12:20]: "Women had PTSD and even while doing what they thought were the steps to get help, could not find help."

6. Exploration of Female Friendships and Relationships

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the unwavering support between female friends, exemplified by Frankie’s bonds with Barb and Ethel. They also touch upon the complexities of romantic relationships formed during war.

• Ashley [05:04]: "The ways that women show up for one another was a theme throughout the whole book."

• Emily [15:08]: "The trauma of seeing those things is just unimaginable."

7. Personal Reflections and Connections

Emily and Ashley share their personal connections to the themes of the book, discussing family members affected by war and the importance of understanding and supporting veterans.

• Ashley [38:35]: "But had a really big impact on him, you know, And I think sometimes it's just tricky to know how things might have turned out if you didn't have to go there."

• Emily [41:15]: "We did have a family friend who went and had a very difficult life afterward."

8. Conclusion and Recommendations

Wrapping up, the hosts passionately recommend "The Women", emphasizing its emotional depth and historical significance. They encourage listeners to engage further by joining their Patreon community for more in-depth discussions.

• Emily [42:14]: "But we read really, really dark, depressing things."

• Ashley [42:27]: "Thanks for listening."

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Notable Quotes:

• Ashley [14:29]: "I do think Kristin did her research really well."

• Emily [22:10]: "Frankie was so confused because she hadn't been aware of what the media was saying."

• Ashley [35:16]: "But the amount of people they knew who didn't come back or who came back and were altered for the rest of their lives is just brings it all back to the point."

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Final Thoughts:

"The Women" by Kristin Hannah serves as a powerful exploration of female resilience, the hidden narratives of war, and the enduring bonds of sisterhood. Emily and Ashley's in-depth discussion not only unpacks the novel's intricate layers but also invites listeners to reflect on the real-life implications of history's forgotten stories.

For those interested in historical fiction that intertwines personal struggles with broader societal issues, "Books With Your Besties" highly recommends "The Women". Engage with Emily and Ashley on their Patreon for exclusive content, bonus episodes, and a community of fellow book enthusiasts.

Transcript

[Ashley]

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[Emily]

Hi, I'm Emily.

[Ashley]

I'm Ashley.

[Emily]

And this is Books with your besties. Okay, let's talk about the women.

[Ashley]

Talk about the women.

[Emily]

The Women by Kristin Hannah is our choice this week to talk about. We both read this in the last couple of weeks, and we're very moved by it.

[Ashley]

And for anyone confused, we do tend to read and talk about psychological thrillers in our creepy book club. But if Kristin Hannah drops a new book, we will basically stop everything to read it.

[Emily]

We both read devastating historical fiction books and call them palate cleansers, which I don't know how they cleanse any palettes, but I love historical fiction.

[Ashley]

I do, too. And one of the things you and I have always said that we respect and love about Kristin Hannah, and you're the one that said this to me, was that she writes real. Some of the criticisms I've heard have been like, it was too hard to read. It was so sad. But that's because that's what real life was like.

[Emily]

Yeah. And I think she does a really nice job, if nothing else, of just bringing to light issues from the past that we may not really think about, even if we learned about them from a textbook or talked about them at some point or watched a movie that spurred interest in a topic. I mean, I read the Four Winds by her, and I just think the. The huge value in that was revisiting really what the Dust bowl was and all of the factors. Not all, but many of the things that influence people during that time.

[Ashley]

And whenever you and I read a Kristin Hannah book at or around the same time and talk about it, it always gives us such an insane perspective on our own lives. When you read about the Dust bowl, when you read Nightingale and you think, okay, yesterday was a hard day, but things could certainly be worse.

[Emily]

Yeah. And two, I think about current events, like, what is next? Okay, there was a dust bowl. Well, we're seeing a lot of, you know, fire activity or more extreme weather kinds of patterns in the world. And what's the next thing? Are we going to have the smoke bowl or the fire bowl. I mean, just who knows, right? And to looking at how the government reacted and the impacts, it's. It's just fascinating to me. So anyway, not the book we're talking about, but Kristin Hannah just brings to light those really interesting.

[Ashley]

And if you started with the Women, that's your first Kristin Hannah book. We would both recommend going back and reading everything she has ever written.

[Emily]

Yeah, she's really. I really like her her books. I know that too. Her writing bothers some people. I don't know exactly what about it, but I enjoy it so much because I don't want to put her books down.

[Ashley]

Same. Absolutely not. Let's get into this book. The Women, which starts with Frankie also. I just love that name.

[Emily]

I know, it's so cute. And Finley. Frankie and Finley, brother and sister. This is so this is a full spoiler episode as usual. So we're going straight in all the way.

[Ashley]

I I so before this book, I knew nothing about the women of the Vietnam War, the nurses. Did you know anything? And then I feel like, why did we not learn about this?

[Emily]

Well, and here's the thing is I feel like I knew about the Vietnam War again from sort of a just academic perspective. Like intellectually I had learned some things. But to connect with what this must have been for people there was really powerful. Frankie and Finley were great characters. I feel like they really developed nicely very quickly.

[Ashley]

Yes. I think you could feel the love and respect, frankly had Frank. Frankie. Sorry. Had for Finley and when he went and died and she then made the decision to also go. That was. And I thought about her parents, that they had just lost their son and her brother. The way that Kristin Hannah writes them, you could feel the connection they had as brother and sister and that she was just so called to do this.

[Emily]

Totally think too it was really great writing or great to include that her father didn't support her choice because she was a woman. And in 1966 or the 1960s, 1970s, just how far we've come in terms of gender roles and we're still working to overcome a lot of that. Right. We still have pretty strong gender roles in some ways that that persist. But how at that time it was just absolutely not acceptable for a woman to go to women.

[Ashley]

Right. And at, at all. And how we'll get into it later because it's later in the book. But when Frankie comes back and learns about how her dad lied about where she was and had this whole wall of Finley and all the people in their family who had served the amount of hurt Frankie had to feel by not being honored just because she was a woman.

[Emily]

Just because she was a woman. That's the thing that's so crazy is that she served and saw so much trauma and did so much and then was completely not recognized for it was.

[Ashley]

Let's talk a little bit about. In the beginning of the book, she decides to go.

[Emily]

She.

[Ashley]

She lands there and immediately makes two female friends who are her roommates who, like, right out of the gates are like, you're new. We are going to, like, shepherd you through this whole thing. And Frankie doesn't even realize what she's being thrown into.

[Emily]

Yeah. Barb and Ethel.

[Ashley]

Barb and Ethel.

[Emily]

And I love that that was brought back later when it described new girls and how she kind of also helps guide the way for them. But Barb and Ethel were constants in her life throughout. The bond that they formed from being there together was really special. Oh.

[Ashley]

I mean, I like, you know me, I'm not a. A big crier, but when I cry, I cry hard. And in this book, the few moments where they showed up for one another in ways where it was Barb, Right. Or was it Ethel, who just flew across the country and was on her doorstep because she's like, I know you're not okay. Just the ways that women show up for one another was a theme throughout the whole book.

[Emily]

Yeah, I liked that, too.

[Ashley]

I felt like I learned a lot about how the nurses were expected to show up and what they were expected to do in ways that they were not prepared for.

[Emily]

Oh, my gosh. Anyway, so, like, her wearing this outfit that was so ridiculous when she showed up because she was told that's what she should wear and packed these items that she was like, why would I have this here? It's. It was hard almost to envision in the book. The red dust, dirt everywhere, these kind of ramshackle buildings that were popped up with a fence around it. Because this. These were, you know, these were transient. These weren't permanent structures or things that were there forever. They were built by the military in zones where they had to react. Right.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And also the way that they described. Or that. Not they. Kristin described the smells.

[Emily]

Ooh.

[Ashley]

And that. That was something that Frankie immediately was like. I was not prepared for that. Just that the lack of cleanliness in. In a medical setting and just what they were dealing with. And that initially Frankie was so. Confused isn't the right word. But when it was like, your job is basically to clean out the wounds, not we're not like trying to save anybody's life. Some of these people are not going to make it. It just had such an impact on me that she landed there and all of a sudden she was in situations she had never been before that were horrific.

[Emily]

Yeah. That's the thing is I think if you think about modern medical care other than maybe during COVID I don't think that most providers or nurses see death to the degree that they were seeing on a day to day basis here. Like you, you, your patients come in and you try to save them. They don't. And most of the time you're successful. Right. You don't just. Well, lost 12 patients today is not something that you come home with.

[Ashley]

There was an interview that I was reading leading up to this from a nurse who was actually there, whose name is Grace Moore on IowaPBS.com and she was describing her experience and she literally said you tried your best to distract and to help. So as nurse did not say you're not trying to save them, you're trying to distract. And she said that the nurses wore eye makeup because we just felt like that that was something that would be uplifting to these young people. Would get up in Vietnam in 120 degrees and put on mascara. It was the little things, you know.

[Emily]

Wow. Yeah. And in the book, I mean Kristin Hannah, I think she does her research really well. She notes that she wears the perfume that was really popular at the time because she knew that their girlfriends at home probably smelled like that and she wanted them to have that feeling of comfort.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Just it's the ways that I think women think about those things. I've never been a man, don't come at me about how men think. But I think women often think about those things because a lot of us are natural born caretakers. So in these situations, how am I going to help this person feel more comfortable in their last moments on earth?

[Emily]

Yeah, I know it's really. I thought there were some things that the nurses did that were really beautiful there. Holding hands, how she wrote letters to the soldiers mothers after they died. So that's another piece of this that was really interesting for me is at the time of Vietnam, I mean it's not that long ago. These people now are in their, who were in Vietnam are like in their 70s.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Our parents, our parents age.

[Emily]

Right. Our parents age 70s and 80s and they, they experience this and live through this and they're, they're walking amongst us. I mean we see Vietnam veteran stickers and things. Yesterday I saw Someone at Trader Joe's, and it said Vietnam veteran. And I just was so moved by the fact that we. They're. They've really been forgotten, but that this isn't that long ago. And the way that they had no technology, no good tracking, we didn't know where they were. We didn't know if people were alive or dead. And so to hand write a letter and mail it to their mom was really a gift because that's the only correspondence she would probably get from anybody besides maybe this, the soldiers who came to tell her he passed. Okay, can we talk about that? Because both in the book and then just trying to look and online, you know, 58,000 men and women, very few women, but men died in Vietnam. But that number is so much smaller than reality. Right. Because we know. And what she illuminates in the book is there were deaths of people after. Afterward that don't count in the numbers.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

Because they didn't die in Vietnam. Maybe they died one year later. And actually, I mean, I know someone who went to Afghanistan and was hit in Afghanistan with an ied, an explosive device. Their. Their caravan was hit, and he had a. Maybe a brain injury from that, and a year later, he had a seizure in his home and died.

[Ashley]

And that's not counted in. In the overall.

[Emily]

He's not counted as a death from Afghanistan. This was a young, healthy man before this, right?

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So it's really hard to say, oh, for sure that's from being hit with an ied, but it's also really hard to imagine that suddenly he just had this seizure and died from nothing.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

So those kinds of. Of numbers don't count. And how many more were lost in the last years or that they died early? Because we know they got cancers. We know that's an issue.

[Ashley]

Well, and something that was definitely not. I think something that was not as addressed then or talked about or recognized are the deaths that were directly related to serving in Vietnam that came years later because of ptsd.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ashley]

And in that same interview on the Iowa PBS site, she mentioned that. That these female nurses would go try to get help from the veterans offices, and they did not know how to support them because they were not men who had, quote, unquote, been in combat so that these women had ptsd, and even while doing what they thought were the steps to get help, could not find help. So the amount of deaths from suicide and from the different things that PTSD can. Can cause and just begging for help and not having anyone understand what you needed.

[Emily]

Yeah. According to the. The Veterans affairs website that looking at VA research on Vietnam veterans, it's so amazing to think about how many people were impacted by this, because 2.7 million men and women served in Vietnam. It's a massive number. And the Vietnam War spanned 14 years, so this was a long time. And a lot of people and their families who were traumatized.

[Ashley]

Well, and hearing that also makes me think about when you were talking about the letters being sent home, the difference between what was being seen and heard in the media and the news, and then what Frankie would be saying to her parents. And Frankie would hear back from her parents, also via letter, what they were seeing and hearing. And it felt like such a completely different situation. Does that make sense?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

What was being reported and what Frankie was actually experiencing seemed so different.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Later, we can get into the lack of respect she was shown when she came back.

[Emily]

No kidding. That it was just shocking reading about the injuries that they had to try to deal with and the things that just couldn't prepare you. Let's talk about the things that really traumatized her, like the, the kids, the babies, the villagers, the.

[Ashley]

The burn victims. And I, I, I do think Kristin did a great job in the book highlighting that it was not just the wounded soldiers that these nurses were helping. It was the villagers, and it was mothers and babies who were dying. And, I mean, that part in the book where she's has the baby that passes away, and I'm gonna cry talking about it, but she talks about taking the baby and putting it in the area where they disposed of bodies.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Just. How do you. I mean, that's probably why she ended up screaming on her bedroom floor when she came back home.

[Emily]

Yeah. The trauma of seeing those things is just unimaginable. Okay, so on a more maybe positive or different note, there was lots of love and romance throughout the book and something that was interesting about this. So Jamie was the first. Right. Jamie was the doctor who she worked with, and she became very close with, and they clearly loved each other. But he was married.

[Ashley]

I know. And I, I felt conflicted because I was kind of rooting for Jamie.

[Emily]

I know. Me, too. And that's the hard thing. I think that's where you see how complex the situation is when you're going through something like that and you can find comfort in care or love for another person. It's so hard to fault someone for wanting that.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Emily]

But she upheld her morals.

[Ashley]

She did. And I think Ethel and Barb also warned her about this, so she already had her guard up. As to the amount of men potentially looking for partnership or relationships who were married and had families at home, I. I can't imagine for Frankie how hard it was because you could feel that they had a connection.

[Emily]

Yeah. It would be so hard to be there for 10 years, say, like some of these people were, and expect them to never engage in any kind of comfort care with another person.

[Ashley]

Right. Especially when you're in the day to day situations they're in. The nurses are working six days, 12 hours a day. To not want that human connection.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And to not allow yourself.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

That would be so hard. I loved Jamie and I loved how it all ended in the end. We won't talk about that yet. But also, then let's talk about Rye, because I hate Rye.

[Emily]

Oh, Rye.

[Ashley]

Use the term hate. I do not. I don't like Ry. And he ended up being not a good guy.

[Emily]

Yeah. Ry was so sad because he clearly always had harbored a thing for her. But instead of he. He really swindled her and tricked her.

[Ashley]

He. He really did in a way that was so deceptive to all parties involved. To his wife.

[Emily]

To her over and over, too. Over and over.

[Ashley]

I mean, going to Hawaii with her and having that whole. And really proposing to her. Like, you are engaged to this person.

[Emily]

Yeah. He proposed while he had a new baby on the way with his wife.

[Ashley]

I. The amount of, like, what could be considered, like, soap opera feeling drama in this book. But it doesn't feel that way because Kristin just writes it like this is what's unfolding in her life. But when Frankie hears that he is in the hospital and has just had a baby, you can just feel her heart sing.

[Emily]

Yeah. It's so sad. Okay, let's talk about part two. So obviously Vietnam was really, really challenging. That was. I could not put the book down during that whole first half of the book. I just wanted to read that. Every detail of that. I could have read more because I just really appreciated getting a picture of what that was really like for these people.

[Ashley]

Agree. And something that really impacted me that I. That I read on that. Same. On the same article. Sorry. Was saying that every woman that went to Vietnam was a volunteer. There were no women drafted, so any woman who was there chose to be there.

[Emily]

Wow.

[Ashley]

I know. So, yeah, the first half was powerful. It also made me feel like I don't know enough. Like I should take more time to learn to learn about this.

[Emily]

Yeah, I know. Same. I feel like I just should be more mindful or thoughtful around the whole topic. Okay, then the after effects. Here's the thing. There was a lot packed into this. Frankie was an absolute mess when she came back, Zaster. She could not get it together. But I think that's really true to life.

[Ashley]

Agree.

[Emily]

I think the PTSD was very real for many people. And something that was in the book that I really liked is one, they didn't even know about PTSD before this. Nope. So it was created during this time. And two, it's so individualized. Two people can have the same experience and come out of it very differently in terms of how that impacts them.

[Ashley]

And not only was she coming home to a situation where she personally had this trauma, but she was coming home to live with a family who. I don't know if ashamed is the right word or embarrassed, but they wouldn't even admit to their friends that she had been fighting for our country and saving soldiers. And so to come home and feel like I did that and you, you're not even proud enough to tell people that's what I did. You're going to lie to them and say I was weak wherever they said she was, that's like a double whammy of just shittiness for her.

[Emily]

It's really too many things. And being spat on, having people hate you for what you've done when you're not the one who chose this war. You. And especially as a nurse who was there saving lives and helping people to not die from their wounds and just giving them comfort, care. How can you possibly look at that as if she'd done anything wrong? But at the time, I get it, the sentiment was that it was absolutely wrong for us to be there. And the soldiers, they were crafted to be killers.

[Ashley]

Yeah. I think when she came back and people were spitting on her and being so disrespectful, she felt so confused because she hadn't. She hadn't been. Other than what her parents told her, aware of kind of what the media was saying here and how the war looked here. And eventually she kind of decided to become a part of the movement with Barb and Ethel and. And be like an anti war person. But at the time when she came back, you could feel how confused she was. Like, I was just here saving lives and I thought it was so powerful, Em. When people would say to her, no, there weren't women there, and she would basically say back, some version of, if your husband, your partner, your son didn't see me, it's because he made it out. Do you know what I mean? So the power, like you didn't know there were women there because luckily for you, you didn't end up in the medical tent.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ashley]

Just the power behind that.

[Emily]

I think there was something really interesting. Why didn't. Okay, so we know Ry and Jamie were both alive.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Emily]

Ry was taken prisoner of war for, like, seven years, and so he couldn't do anything about that. And then he. He was, he got out. Jamie, though, was shot down, injured, and.

[Ashley]

She assumed that died because she saw him and he was, like, on death's door.

[Emily]

But why did, why did he never write her?

[Ashley]

I don't know the timeline of when he did end his marriage, you know, because when he runs into her again at the end of the book, they let us know he's not married anymore. Because she says to him something about it, and he says, well, he's. He's not married anymore. So maybe that maybe he was respecting the current state of his marriage. I don't remember her telling us about why so much time passed and they weren't in touch. It could be that he respected Frankie and her, how she set those boundaries with him.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So we have. Okay. Of course, I'm horrible with names. What is the guy's name that she ends up in a relationship with Becoming impregnated by the psychiatrist. Yes.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah. And he's a good man.

[Ashley]

He was. Oh, Henry. Henry Acevedo. I was thinking avocado. Yes. So another man in the book. And here's the thing. Frankie has this energy because she's probably such a compassionate, caring, also strong woman who draws men to her, like Jamie, Ry, and Henry just automatically. Henry completely was enamored by her. They get pregnant. Unfortunately, she has a miscarriage, which then leads her to choose not to marry him because it seemed like the marriage was out of respect for her being pregnant. And I thought his character, I don't know, I liked that he was there and they had that relationship because it felt like Frankie was willing to say no in a moment where it would have been easy to say yes, because she was aware that that was not how she wanted her life to end. So that even though all the pressure was there for her to marry him and to stay in that relationship, she decided not to.

[Emily]

Yeah, I, I, it all. It all makes sense in the end. In the end, it was just sad and hard to watch her spiral and spiral and spiral and spiral and really have no rock bottom.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Emily]

She finally did, though. And what she ended up doing with her life. The farm where women veterans could come.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And heal. I mean, what a beautiful way to find a path to healing.

[Ashley]

Yeah, the. In the end, it all makes sense, but as you're reading it, it feels so completely out of control and, like, what are the next steps for you to move out of this? Because she was in a spiral of clearly an addiction or, you know, using different substances and almost died a couple times, getting herself into accidents and getting herself hospitalized and feeling like, is she gonna come out of this, or is this book going to end with her not coming out of it?

[Emily]

Here's what's really interesting is she couldn't get out of it, but Barb seemed pretty okay.

[Ashley]

I liked.

[Emily]

I loved Barb and Ethel. They both. They both moved on. They got married, they had jobs. They were able to fit in in nursing and felt comfortable. They got involved with other causes against the war and didn't have that. And I actually. Looking@the veteransaffairs.gov website, there were studies done on women Vietnam veterans in PTSD. And they found, according to this site, 20% of women veterans who served in Vietnam developed PTSD during or after their service, which is higher than women who served near Vietnam. They found 11.5% of those. And women who served in the United States, 14.1% of those developed PTSD. So it's a higher rate of PTSD, but it's still just a little bit. 20.1%, slightly over one in five of the women who served in Vietnam developed PTSD. It's really interesting and surprising that more didn't. Really.

[Ashley]

It is. And I wonder. It makes me think about the resources and the community and the family that. That people returned home to. Because Frankie returned home to such a pretty toxic situation where not only could she not get the help she needed, she also had people pretty much fighting against her, her parents. And you wonder with Barb and Ethel, who seemed to do better, if they had more of a receptive community that honored the work they did there. And if that really helps you move.

[Emily]

Forward, it seems like maybe so, because Post Traumatic Stress disorder is a specific disorder. It's a collection of symptoms that has to be diagnosed by a medical professional, too. So that's not to say that they were unaffected. They just didn't go to the depths of darkness that Franke seemed to. Which. Which it is.

[Ashley]

And for Frankie, too, the piece of it that couldn't help is that not only was she not allowed to feel proud about what she did, but she almost was forced to feel shame for it. And the confusion around that. Which also brings me to. I mean, we're all over the place. But the other part of the book that made me completely, like, lose my mind, I think I texted you and Kristen. I asked Kristen first to make Kristen as our friend, to make sure she had read it. Cause I'm the queen of spoiling books for people. But was when her parents showed up in the end of the book and her dad showed up when she was finding Finley's name on the wall, and his dad said something to her to the effect of he. He was proud of her. And the years it took him to not only acknowledge what she had done, but to say he was proud of her. I lost it.

[Emily]

Yeah. I was so glad that happened to you. This is the thing, is this is the happiest of Kristin Hannah books. How disturbing is that? Well, maybe not the happiest, but it's certainly like the nightingale or the four winds. People were like, well, that I'm just now depressed. And this one, it's like, Ry was alive. Jamie was alive. Her dad said he was proud of her. She had this beautiful farm that she could have women stay on and was finding a path for herself. Thank God it ended relatively well.

[Ashley]

And we get to. And we get to tell the next pieces of the story in our own brain. Like in my. In my version, she and Jamie are now together. They are just happy he's living with her there, helping her run her farm. That's how it ends for me.

[Emily]

Okay, that sounds good. Let's do that.

[Ashley]

That feels like the best way for this book to end. One of the things we haven't talked about that I think is a little important, and it wasn't a huge piece of the book, but it felt like an important piece. Was Frankie's mom when she had the stroke.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley]

And Frankie really putting aside everything that had been so hurtful to her and really stepping in and not only taking care of her mom, but allowing herself to see her dad in a different light, even though he had hurt her. Just kind of seeing the love that her mom and dad had. I just felt like, for you and I were in that generation where we are looking at caretaking for our parents. We have friends whose parents are passing away and sick. And that felt really real to me, that that's something that would happen in her life. That amidst dealing with her own ptsd, she now has to take care of a very sick mom.

[Emily]

Yes. And two, a very flawed mom and flawed parents. I mean, her mom really loved her and I think gave her a lot of love growing up, but she had a difficult relationship with them. She did her mom didn't want her talking about anything to do with Vietnam. She'd had it, had enough of that and she was over it. And it didn't maybe make facilitate a great relationship for a while.

[Ashley]

It was very much the mentality of you were there, you helped move on. Like now you're here. Can't. Can't you just move on?

[Emily]

Right. Which I feel like you've experienced and you've talked about in just your grieving, your dad, that people are sort of, they get over it a bit.

[Ashley]

They do. People do. I think in the very beginning, people are very aware of the pain you might be feeling. And a year later, it's just, it feels like people expect you to move on really, really quickly and, and really you have just come out of the fog a year or 18 months later to realize, wait, I have to learn how to live the rest of my life without this person.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ashley]

And people don't show up for you in the same ways they do when you're in the acute phases. Which, I mean, even feels like Frankie in the book when she's having so many struggles. People are showing up for her in ways and then it's not like they give up on her, but at some point her parents are just like, come on, just move on. That it was fun to read about them going out. Like, I connected to that. Like the nights that they would go out and go dancing and just like, I'm like, okay, this feels familiar to me. Like how you and I would go out when we were in our 20s. That part. I, I just love that we had moments of reprieve in the book where it was like, you know, she had to help her because she was throwing up or she woke up hungover. Those moments felt, they just felt like a moment of reprieve in the book that was needed.

[Emily]

Well, and also just that these were just kids. Yeah, these were just these like 20 year old kids who want to go have some fun with each other and hang out and have drinks and that's what they would be doing at home. And that they, they find those moments to do that. And her talking about how bizarre that was to go from like looking at a man holding his own foot to immediately after like merrily laughing and dancing to music. But that, that is the reality of the life they were living. So I'm glad that they had those moments and they had some fun.

[Ashley]

They did have some fun in there. Kristin. Hannah does write a little bit. I would never call it steamy, but I did like the Whole just side story of the fact that Frankie had not slept with anyone and that her girlfriends were like, oh, like, just wait, you'll know. And when Frankie was feeling certain ways toward Jamie or especially towards Ry, they were like, that's what you're supposed to feel like. This is. This is a good thing, Frankie.

[Emily]

Okay, can we talk about Coyote? Because I kept thinking, you know who Coyote is, remember? Speaking of. Speaking of romance.

[Ashley]

Steamy.

[Emily]

Yes. He was the one who was like, I'm a good man and I love you. Like, over there.

[Ashley]

I loved Coyote, but he was so.

[Emily]

Not a fit for her because she was so not interested.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Emily]

At all. And I was so worried that at the end he was gonna come back and be her romantic partner.

[Ashley]

No. That would have been a disaster.

[Emily]

I know.

[Ashley]

Pretty cute how much he adored her. And just.

[Emily]

It was. I was like, oh, no, are they gonna put them together? And then it's this. Like, the way she described him was just. Frankie was, like, nodded, crowded.

[Ashley]

But how that storyline kept going. Like, he would see her and be like, hey, Frankie, I still am in love with you. Yeah.

[Emily]

My girlfriend, she's like, nope, no, not. That is not it.

[Ashley]

Oh, I forgot about him until you just started talking about.

[Emily]

He was a fun little. Okay, here's the thing is I am such a wuss. I just kept thinking about, like, getting in a helicopter and you're getting shot at to go to a party.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Not going to feel that comfortable.

[Ashley]

No, absolutely not. But also, if I've seen what they saw all day, I might be willing to do anything to just go have a drink with some friends.

[Emily]

Yeah. And sort of like you. You've gotta be so reckless.

[Ashley]

When Frankie's mom was sending her letters, I did relate to. Because my mom, she'll hear this, and she knows, has a tendency to kind of speak this way and say these things. When her mom would say things like, you should see these protesters here and what they're wearing. I can't believe it. Frankie. I was like that. In the letter you're sending to your daughter, that's the most important piece of information you can share with her. But I'm like, oh, yeah. In those times, like, her mom kind of seemed proper. They belong to a country club. And she's just like, frankie, these girls and their outfits, you could not believe it.

[Emily]

Oh, remember when she shocked her by swearing? Yes. In front. How could you swear at the country club in front of anybody I know the. The most, like, out of touch with. To talk about two different realities.

[Ashley]

Yes. I mean, absolutely. And the other two different realities and something I haven't personally experienced because this. I was born later, but when Frankie became pregnant and was like, I remember girls who would just go away. Like, I went to school with girls who would all of a sudden go away, and then they would come back. You did. No, I. In the. I didn't know that. But in the book, like, no. In our high school, if somebody got pregnant, you were just like, she's pregnant. She's still coming to school. Nobody got sent away. But just that reality of, like, girls would get sent away to have babies and then come back.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And that when she.

[Emily]

Oh, this is what I was going to tell you that I'm going to come back to. So, on the Veteran affairs website, it says that both men and women who served in Vietnam are more likely to die in car accidents than the general population or other veterans. But you know what that is? That's probably because they take different risks.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Do you think?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

It could be, like, are you just, like, is it a distraction? Are you.

[Emily]

It could be purposeful crashes.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Intentional. It could be, though, also, maybe you're a little more reckless. Drive a little faster, drive a little closer, cut a little bit of a corner.

[Ashley]

Especially when you have seen what you have seen and been a part of this. Doesn't feel that risky.

[Emily]

Yeah. Or like you went to a party in a helicopter with the doors wide open and people shooting at you. You're like, this car's fine.

[Ashley]

Yeah. You're like, I'm. I'm fine to whip one. Or.

[Emily]

I don't know. There's like a level of recklessness there maybe. Have you ever heard of the Werther effect?

[Ashley]

No, no, of course not, but you probably.

[Emily]

You probably have. Okay, so the Werther effect is a psychological effect where when there is a highly publicized car accident, there will be an increase in the following month of the same kind of car accident.

[Ashley]

I think you've told me about this.

[Emily]

Yes. So, for example, if there are two people in the car, it's a highly publicized accident of two people. Then car accidents with two people in the car will increase in the following month.

[Ashley]

Is it the same with other crimes or with even suicide?

[Emily]

It's this. It's very much originated from talking about suicide. So they stopped. Actually, the media. The news media, knowing this, stopped publicizing suicide. So you don't see suicide in the news or on. In the newspapers or anything. A part of that is because there was pressure not to because there's such a huge increase in the Same kind of suicide in the following month.

[Ashley]

That's crazy.

[Emily]

Isn't that crazy? Yeah. But the car accident one is really fascinating because you're like, well, did they crash on purpose with another person in the car? Do you almost wonder if, like, your mind allows you to engage in more risky behavior when you're in that same situation or something?

[Ashley]

Yes. Or if you're. You'll tell me I'm wrong because you know about these things. But if you hadn't considered something as an option or. And you see it reported that even if you don't think, oh, that's an option in my life somewhere in your body. No, like, oh, that's. Maybe that's the next step.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ashley]

And then you do it.

[Emily]

What's really crazy is I think they found the same thing for plane crashes.

[Ashley]

Oh, I don't.

[Emily]

Can you believe that?

[Ashley]

No, no. I mean, I can, now that you've said it. And I'm going to think about it every time I get on a plane. If there's been a plane crash within the last week, I'll be like, son of a gu.

[Emily]

The reality is those are so, so low risk anyway that the doubling of the risk or something in the following month is still extraordinarily low.

[Ashley]

Um, quick question before we wrap up, because I actually honestly don't know the answer to this. Did you have anyone in your family that you know of who was in Vietnam?

[Emily]

No, none of my family members were in Vietnam.

[Ashley]

My. My dad was ready to go, but that's when he got his injury, so he was honorably discharged, I think, is what. I'll look at his paperwork. But he ended up not going because he got injured, and Ben's dad was there, and he. Ben would be fine with me sharing this. He won't talk about it to this day. He was in a boat most of the time. That's all we really know. But had had a really big impact on him, you know, And I think sometimes it's just tricky to know how things might have turned out if you didn't have to go there, you know, for everybody who's ever fought in a war, I'm sure it's what everybody thinks about, but anyway, I'm rambling, but Ben's dad went, and I just think it was something he doesn't want to talk about. And that's scary and sad and hard.

[Emily]

We did. We did have a family friend who went and had a very difficult life afterward. And, you know. You know, there's those people like Frankie, where bad things just do happen to them, those that exists. And I swear they. It doesn't seem like they do anything for it. Like the person we know who's a Vietnam veteran, after he. After Vietnam, he was married. His wife had like a horrifying brain bleed that basically turned her back into a child and she had to relearn everything. Obviously, that's not his fault. He was a lineman, like an electrical lineman for a while. And he watched someone get electrocuted, his co worker to death. And can you imagine? And he had flashbacks because it was like napal. It was like napalm in Vietnam for him. He was in a fast food restaurant and there was a drive by on the restaurant, drive by shooting. And so they had to hit the ground. I mean, this is like, how can you possibly survive these things? He was never. He never seemed okay. Oh, never was okay. And he died young. He passed away. So I just, we. I've had the personal experience of just knowing someone who was close to my mom who was in Vietnam, but not a family member. I. I will say I've spoke about this book with some other people and they said, you know, my dad was in Vietnam. And it just really makes me think more about kind of him and his behaviors since and who he is and how this might have impacted him. And it makes me more thoughtful about it after reading this book and that maybe I should ask if he wants to talk about it or not.

[Ashley]

Yeah, absolutely. I actually this book made me ask my mom last night. We were in the car together about her experience being at the age she was with Vietnam. And she wanted to talk about it. And I thought, well, I've never asked because I never thought to ask.

[Emily]

Right.

[Ashley]

But the amount of people they knew who didn't come back or who came back and were altered for the rest of their lives is just brings it all back to the point. You said that this was not that long ago.

[Emily]

No, it's not that long ago. But a very interesting piece of history.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So if you have not read the women. Sorry, we just spoiled the whole thing for you. You should read it.

[Emily]

Go read it.

[Ashley]

If you have go to our Patreon. We will have a place over there to chat about it. We would love to hear your thoughts on this book.

[Emily]

This was not a funny episode. We apologize. We will try to be more funny. But we read really, really dark, depressing things.

[Ashley]

We felt like this was an important book to talk about because we are huge on empowering women and female friendships. And I think at its core, a large chunk of this book is about how women take care of one another.

[Emily]

Agreed. Thanks for listening.

[Ashley]

Thanks, guys. Read everything Kristin Hannah ever wrote.