This Story Might Save Your Life by Tiffany Crum

Summary

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Books With Your Besties

Episode Summary: "This Story Might Save Your Life" by Tiffany Crum

Hosts: Emily & Ashley
Date: April 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply engaged episode, Emily and Ashley dive into This Story Might Save Your Life by Tiffany Crum—a psychological thriller that blends suspense, true crime elements, podcast culture, and examinations of justice and human nature. Drawing on personal stories, expert knowledge, and their trademark humor, the besties unpack the book’s themes, discuss the nuances of audiobooks, reflect on the psychology of domestic violence, and connect the novel to real-life cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Book Came Into Their Lives

• Emily describes being utterly hooked:

  "Honestly, top of the list for the year so far, please go and read it and then come back. I listened to the audiobook in, like, two days. Literally, I could not put it down." [00:52]

• The book was a recommendation from their friend and book club member, David Lacy, with personal connections between the author, their circle, and the book community.
• They note how mutual recommendations between friends often lead to the best reads.

2. Audiobook Experience & Narration

• Both hosts raved about the audiobook:

  "The audiobook was just whole experience." – Ashley [02:18]
  "The narrators...were just spot on. Like, I feel like Benny's voice made him...more mature and more attractive." – Emily [03:28]

• Discussion of multi-voice narration and what makes narration succeed or fail.
• Reflection on the skill it takes to narrate, especially voicing scenes of violence:

  "There's a scene near the end...where the narrator is Xander when Xander is hurting Joy. And the way that the narrator was able to moderate and use her voice to put like shivers in my body with how violent he was being." – Ashley [05:38]

3. Book Ratings and Structure

• Both Emily and Ashley gave the book a solid 5 out of 5 stars:

  "Five easy." – Ashley [06:29]
  "Five for me too. Yeah, it had everything I love." – Emily [06:30]

• Praise for the beautiful physical book cover and a desire to own the hard copy.

4. Book Themes: Podcasts, Relationships & Character Dynamics

• Admiration for the meta-podcast element in the story, which made their reading experience “extra fun”.
• Notable comparison between the fictional podcast’s humble self-deprecation and the hosts' own show:

  "All of their episodes started with, like, for our three listeners. I was like, oh, yeah, we say that too." – Ashley [07:06]

5. Character Relationships

• Discussion of unrequited love and the dynamic between Joy and Benny:

  "He still just kept being her best friend and, like, being there for her until he wasn't. Right. Until Xander ruined that relationship." – Ashley [08:35]

6. Narcolepsy Portrayal

• Narcolepsy as an underrepresented, central part of Joy’s character and the story’s suspense:

  "It seems like they're all different types and I guess I didn't really realize that you can like you just fall asleep like in the middle of eating or talking." – Ashley [11:54]

• Personal anecdotes about knowing people with narcolepsy and how the condition complicates daily life.
• The vulnerability inherent in narcolepsy, especially for a protagonist in danger.

7. Trauma, Grief, and Sleep

• Discussion of grief-induced exhaustion and parallels to narcolepsy.
• Emily reflects on how emotional trauma can trigger intense physical responses.

8. Domestic Violence, Self-defense, and Real-world Parallels

Ashley reveals Emily’s academic expertise:

"You actually researched and wrote about a topic of this book, which is women who undergo years and years of abuse...and end up killing their partner." [16:50]

Key points from Emily:

• Overview of "battered women who kill" literature and the real-world self-defense vs. premeditation legal challenges.
• Memorable quote from research reference:

  "I was an animal caught in a trap and I basically chewed off my own arm to get out of it." – Wendy Maldonado, on her case [18:18]

• The rarity of women able to kill abusers in the midst of being attacked due to power differentials.
• Explanation of "justifiable homicide" and jury nullification.
• The problematic expectation to "just leave," and why that’s often impossible for victims.

Real-Life Cases Discussed ([26:56]–[29:50]):

• Rebecca Mellon (Phoenix): Video-documented domestic violence, shot her husband while he slept, pled guilty to 2nd-degree murder (18–22 years in prison).
• Melissa Deval: Endured years of abuse, killed husband with a hammer, initially misled investigators, received life in prison for first-degree murder.

The Book’s Approach:

• Joy’s actions are framed as in-the-moment self-defense—a key differentiator from real-world cases with more ambiguous circumstances.
• Emphasis on the women’s shelter scenes and the depiction of community, as well as the cyclical nature of attempts to escape abuse.

9. Female Solidarity and Allyship

• Joy's killing of her abuser is covered up by women (and an ally male character), highlighting themes of community, compassion, and pragmatic justice.

  "She focused this and centered this on women helping women...We love a male ally, don't we?" – Emily [33:30]

10. Satisfying (and Subversive) Ending

• Both hosts agreed the book provided a happy, cathartic resolution, defying the bleakness often present in stories of abuse:

  "I thought it was an extremely happy ending. Xander's gone, and everybody's cool about it. Everybody's good. Totally." – Emily [34:44]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Emily on the audiobook narrator:

  "The voices themselves were just spot on. Like, I feel like Benny's voice made him...more mature and more attractive than I probably would have without the voice." [03:28]

• Ashley on character empathy:

  "He still just kept being her best friend and, like, being there for her until he wasn't. Right. Until Xander ruined that relationship." [08:35]

• Emily, on battered women who kill:

  "It's very, very rare that women are gonna like overpower their abuser in the moment...So they wait until they're incapacitated, until they're sleeping, until they are on drugs, until they're drunk and passed out and then they kill him." [21:54]

• Ashley, on blame and societal expectations:

  "Why didn't you leave? That's not the right question. Why did he abuse you?” [32:19]

• Emily, on the book’s cathartic ending:

  "Trauma, shmama. They're fine." [34:57]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:39 – Book introduction and how it was discovered
• 02:18 – 03:28 – Discussion on audiobook narration
• 06:15 – Rating the book
• 06:40 – Podcasts within the story and meta-connections
• 08:04 – 10:02 – Joy and Benny’s relationship
• 10:02 – 16:31 – Discussion on narcolepsy and personal reflections
• 16:50 – 26:56 – Battered women who kill: Emily’s research and real-life cases
• 31:43 – Women's shelters, cycles of leaving and returning to abusers
• 33:28 – Cover-up plot and women supporting women
• 34:44 – The book’s resolution and final thoughts
• 35:49–36:44 – Next reads and upcoming episodes

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• This Story Might Save Your Life is a multi-layered thriller that touches on underrepresented medical conditions, female resilience, the complexities of justice, and found family/community within—and outside of—trauma.
• Emily and Ashley’s discussion moves seamlessly between humor, personal anecdote, expert insight, and social commentary.
• The episode would deeply resonate with fans of psychological thrillers, true crime, and nuanced explorations of human behavior and justice.

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Looking Ahead

• Next episode: Taylor Adams’ Her Last Breath (caving, suspense)
• Upcoming reads: Long Bright River by Liz Moore; Smile for the Cameras by Miranda Smith

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For more content and exclusive episodes, find the hosts on Patreon at The Creepy Book Club.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, I'm Emily. I'm Ashley, and this is Books with your besties. Hey.

[A]

Hey, besties. We are back, and today we are going to talk with you about this story might save your life by Tiffany Crumb. Emily, will you tell us how we found out about this book? Because I love it a lot.

[B]

Yes. And if you haven't read it, honestly, top of the list for the year so far, please go and read it and then come back. I listened to the audio audiobook in, like, two days. Literally, I could not put it down. I was just. Everything I was doing. Sometimes I have to be really stimulated to listen to an audiobook. Like when I'm driving, I start to drift off. It's too boring of a task. So I have to be like, folding my laundry or something, look like sitting on my phone, I don't know, whatever. Anyway, I could not stop. It was. I was completely obsessed. And this was a recommendation from one of our very good book book club members, David Lacy, who is a friend of mine from high school and a journalist and just all around exceptionally great reader and recommender of books. Great guy and really excited that whenever he recommends something highly, I'm like, oh, we've got to read it because it's always going to be good.

[A]

I.

[B]

And what's super cool is that we have another friend named Elena from high school. And David posted and the three of us often talk about books. Elena's also part of our book club, and so we have a lot of the same taste. And we have gone on these. We have on these threads before. Elena, David, and you and I, Ashley, been like, oh, great. Thanks for telling me about that. And we've all kind of exchanged these recommendations. And the author, Tiffany Crumb, is one of Elena's good friends from college. So cool.

[A]

It is so cool. And I loved seeing her friend just completely hype her up. And I think we all do that for our friends. But then the fact that, A, she hyped her up and B, it was an extraordinary book. Like, it was so good. And I don't Feel like. I often say I would do the audiobook over reading with my eyes, but I know we were going to talk about this. The narrator. The audiobook was just whole experience.

[B]

So good. I did the audiobook too. I couldn't. I couldn't put it down once I started. Here's the thing about audiobooks too, that I will say I love reading with my eyes. And sometimes my favorite books are from that, right? So I remember people saying the same thing about the Lisa Jewel book. None of this is true. That the audiobook is like, phenomenal, but I read it with my eyes and I loved it so much. And I was like, no, read it with your eyes. But obviously that's one of those books that's incredible both ways. And this one, I suspect, is as well.

[A]

I agree. And I'm a sucker for a pretty bookshelf. And the COVID of this book is beautiful. I know it doesn't mean anything, but I was like, I think I need to buy the actual book.

[B]

Me too. Plus, it supports the author even more than we did by buying her audiobook. I really like it, but, yeah, maybe we need some copies for our. For our shelves. One other thing about audiobooks, let me just tell you this. The narrators, not only is it one of those with multiple voices, which. Which makes it really fun, the voices themselves were just spot on. Like, I feel like Benny's voice made him. Me able to picture him as, like, more mature and more attractive than I probably would have without the. The voice. Like, it's those voices that are just really joy. I loved her voice. I mean, I just thought they had wonderful voices. And I will tell you, in contrast, that I just started listening to an audiobook and I. I can't. I have to put it down. The. The man's voice at the beginning is so annoying that I'm like, I can't. And I can't get past it. I keep trying and I'm like, this story's so cheesy. No, I don't think it is. I think it's the narrator that's so cheesy. And I'm gonna tell you, it made me think about something else. I know I'm just rambling here, but I have to. I don't wanna name any names, but there's an author who I tried to pick up one of her latest works, and I've stopped listening to her mostly, even though she's a really big. The narrators in her audiobooks are so horrendous. This one author. Okay, let me just Tell you the book that she wrote, the last book I tried to listen to, it's almost like she had like herself narrate it. Except for that she's like a 60 year old woman. Like I'd say picture Ina garden, okay? Like barefoot contessa, you know, Ina garden. Like, like soft 60s, like maybe a little heavy set. Like sweet homebody type. Like probably will cook you dinner. Maybe used to smoke cigarettes. Not Ina garden, but like this narrator. And that's who was narrating the book. And it was supposed to be like 30 something going to a cabin for like a getaway. And I was like, how is this heavy set 60 year old woman supposed to be the voice of a 30 year old? I couldn't. I was like, I am done here. Who picked this? I know authors actually have that discretion, but I just wanted to be like, ma', am, don't pick yourself. Pick your character to narrate it.

[A]

That made me laugh really hard. And in. As I was reading the Tiffany Crumb book, I had a realization, which you and I have often about jobs we could never have, where you're just like, I could never have that skill. And the narrator in this book, there's. There's a scene near the end of the book where the narrator is Xander when Xander is hurting Joy. And the way that the narrator was able to moderate and use her voice to put like shivers in my body with how violent he was being. Immediately I was like, I could never be. Not that I ever thought I could, but I was like, I could never be an audiobook narrator because I just couldn't. She was so good. She was so good.

[B]

I know. They. They did such a good job. The. The narrators of that were amazing. So listen to the audiobook if you haven't. Also, there's your spoilers. Already started. So you already know that. We do that every time. Okay, Ashley. Rate this book stars one to five.

[A]

Five easy.

[B]

Five for me too. Yeah, it had everything I love.

[A]

It was just extraordinary. And it was like a behind closed doors. I don't know what else. Like a beautiful story wrapped inside of a thriller.

[B]

Yes. And it had two other areas of real interest, which I love. When something else is interwoven in a way that keeps you. Doesn't distract from the story or like overwhelm. So the podcast piece of it, the fact that they had this super fun podcast. Did you listen to the actual whole podcast episode? They did at the end.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Loved it. I wish it was a real podcast also. Tiffany Crumb, genius. Why don't you make the podcast. This whatever might save your life.

[A]

I also loved how they were super successful podcasters and still did what we also do. Because everybody, like you, just want to assume you're not going to have super success. So all of their episodes started with, like, for our three listeners. I was like, oh, yeah, we say that too.

[B]

I know. Well, I do think that was at the beginning of their podcast, like their first. But yes. And we still do only have three listeners. We do maybe four, but we. We have not reached the million dollar fame level. And I, you know, I think part of you need a voice like Benny's and I need a voice like Joy's. How do we fix that?

[A]

And we need. In the book, you know, they said, like, one celebrity who has this huge following listened to our episode and shared it. So for this, for the giant celebrity listening to books with your besties, you

[B]

should probably share this great idea.

[A]

We know that. Reese Witherspoon, for sure.

[B]

I really like our community of listeners. So that was not to throw shade at you all. You're a special bunch.

[A]

You are. So should we just dive right into the heavier topics or do you want to talk about any of the other fun stuff with the book? Not fun, but just getting to know the characters. Like, did you know from the beginning, oh, Benny loves her. He loves her. He loves her.

[B]

Yes, for sure. I feel like he told her that. He said, I don't want to ruin a good thing because I'm not in a good place. But he didn't mean ever. He meant right then. He needed to just be friends for a minute or, like, keep it slow and calm and. Yeah. And then she went off and met Xander. What the heck, Joy?

[A]

I know. And he got hardcore friendzone. One of the pieces of it I loved was that he, like, even knowing maybe they would never have a love connection, he still just kept being her best friend and, like, being there for her until he wasn't. Right. Until Xander ruined that relationship. But I'm like, oh, he still stuck around even when he didn't know if it was going to end up becoming romantic in the way that he wanted.

[B]

I know. The sweet, unrequited love story. Although, also, it seems like she always had love for him too and felt the same way. And it was also a challenge for her to sort of leave it and move forward. And I think sometimes that's probably true for people. I know you and I have a deep love relationship and we still married other people. What are you laughing about? Just because we're not gay just because

[A]

we wish we were, but unfortunately we had to marry men, but here we are. Well, this is a total tangent, but someone. Someone I know who has a daughter around Hunter's age at soccer the other day said to me, she was like, you know, I'll call her daughter Julie. She's like, julie has this friend that's a boy, and she just keeps telling me how much she loves hanging out with him. And she's so glad they're just friends. And she's like, but I met the boy and he's in love with her. So she was. You know, Julie thinks they're just friends, and he clearly is just completely head over heels for her. So, anyway, kudos to Benny for sticking it out.

[B]

I know they were cute. I'm so glad that it worked out for them ultimately. Okay, let's talk about another area of interest, because there was the whole podcast stuff, which I thought was really fun, clever idea, funny. They were great. Narcolepsy.

[A]

Have you known anyone that has narcolepsy?

[B]

I did in college. When we first got to college, I was literally living in my freshman dorm. And one of the very first people I met, maybe he was in my. You know how we have those, I don't know, orientation groups that were also our first literature class kind of a thing. Cohort. I think he was in that. And I think his name was Mike. This is terrible. This shows my memory. This has nothing to do with how valuable this person was to me because I clearly remember him. But I do remember him sitting in my room one time in the evening, and we were all just talking and then he took a little cat nap.

[A]

I kind of went down. So I thought about you and how you had already watched, which now I have. I've watched some caving videos, but I thought about how you had already watched caving videos. So then you were just like so much more into the Taylor Adams book that we talked about.

[B]

We have not released that, so don't. Yes, but. Yes, but everyone should go watch some caving videos before you listen to that podcast. Okay.

[A]

So I went down a rabbit hole to learn a little bit more about narcolepsy because I actually have someone that I would call an acquaintance. I would say we were friends at one point and then not like, not friends because of a falling out. Just you have different people in your life during different parts of your life. And she's a teacher and she ended up getting a service dog, which helps you if you are about because she has the kind where Your whole. You both fall asleep and your muscles all shut down so you just like fall asleep and just collapse. So her dog knows when it's going to happen, can get her a safe space, knows how to compress her while she naps and like different spots where it helps with the anxiety or whatever. And she takes these 10 to 15 minute little naps through just throughout the day. But it took her, I'm going to say five years, so probably longer to really problem solve. How do I still be a teacher and make this work while having narcolepsy? Because it's not just something that medication can fix.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it would be such a challenging thing to have. And it seems like they're all different types and I guess I didn't really realize that you can like you just fall asleep like in the middle of eating or talking.

[B]

Well, I was thinking about that. I mean first off, how vulnerable, especially if you have the type like your friend has. How, how that must feel so dangerous. And like joy driving and falling asleep like that story in the book. Um, it really made me appreciate not having narcolepsy cuz I could see that being challenging and how you would need to really manage that. Because here's the other thing is I am one of those people. This is bizarre. And I know that I do love a really good night's sleep. Like it's of a really high value. I love a good night's sleep, but I really don't like sleeping. Like I'm not, I, I'm not excited to go to bed because I want to be awake all the time. Like, and my kids are the same way. They are just like if we could just abandon sleeping all the way and just keep living, that'd be great. Okay. It's like the weird opposite of depression. I don't know what it is. It's just this thing where we aren't like big sleepers. So I was definitely listening to it being like, wow, I can't imagine having to factor in a couple of naps every day.

[A]

Right, right. Well, I kind of went down a rabbit hole also after, after this of. This is going to feel like a big tangent, but I feel like it makes sense in my brain. But after my dad passed away, I would have this happen. Like I would be in the car and I would be like, I have to pull over and sleep. Going for a drive that was 10 minutes from my house. I would pull over the car and sleep for three to five minutes at a time. And in trying to look at narcolepsy I know it has to do with your neurotransmitters in your brain, but I'm like, is there something with acute intense grief where your brain triggers some type of, like, short term. I don't want to call it narcolepsy because I feel like that takes away from the community. And I obviously have never experienced narcolepsy, but it was very odd to be like, I'm a mile from my house and I don't feel safe driving and I have to pull over and go to sleep right now.

[B]

Yeah, definitely your brain needing to shut down from trauma. But I don't know if it is exactly the same. Right.

[A]

I don't think it is, but it just made me think, like, how hard would it be to manage this and live day to day? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Interesting stuff. I really liked that. And I. And I thought, interesting to think about that. Joy's partners, they didn't want her to have narcolepsy, so they didn't like that. And it was like a deterrent for partnerships for her throughout her life. And Xander was very, like, great about it. And then ultimately it's because he liked having her have a weakness so that he could have more control. And maybe he had some kind of Munchausens by proxy, it sounds like, with his partners, because he was drugging his previous girlfriend.

[A]

Right. Right. Before we get into Xander, we do get to talk with Tiffany Crumb. And I do want to ask her about her choice to have Joy have narcolepsy, because that feels like such a. Like a bold choice if she then really had to research that. It, like, it seems like an odd trait to give a character. Unless maybe you have personal experience or know someone or. I don't know. Like, it just feels like a lot to have to research to write a character about if you don't.

[B]

Well, I mean, most people do that. I feel like authors do that all the time. They don't have dissociative identity disorder. They go research it. Or like her, Sarah Pekkanen went to locked facilities, mental health facilities, multiple times, like, for days. Like, did really, really extensive research. So I don't think. I don't think the research part is that uncommon. I guess it's just like, what. What triggered your interest on in narcolepsy? Was it just randomly interested? Was it something that felt a story to you? Like, because it does become part of it. Because she has a narcoleptic hallucination, essentially.

[A]

And quick side note, if you're not on our Patreon, our Sarah Pekkanen interview is over there with her about visiting the locked ward and her stories were insane. She's like, there's one person that they told me, like, just don't look in his eyes.

[B]

Fascinating. Yeah. Anyway, I. I mean, I just think it's cool that she did so much research on it to represent it. And also probably. And it could just be that she felt like it's an underrepresented kind of diagnosis that isn't on in books very much. And so a cool thing to integrate it, but not as, like, the story of the narcoleptic. It's just like something that one of

[A]

the characters had and every now and then does play a role. When you know, she's talking, this is jumping way to the end. But when she's talking with the police about the person. Natalia. Is that her name? Where.

[B]

Right, the hallucination thing.

[A]

Yes. Like that. Is that a piece of. Is that a piece of it? So it does come into play later in the book where it's a useful thing for her to have.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's a horrible thing to say. We have to take that out. So maybe with her love behind me, I can't say that it's useful to have.

[B]

No, I already. I already said it. I already said it earlier. I said it was central to the story because of her hallucination.

[A]

Can I tell our listeners something about you because it has to do with this book.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Can I tell them that while you were working your butt off to get your PhD and correct me if I'm wrong, but you actually researched and wrote about a topic of this book, which is women who undergo years and years of abuse and domestic violence and end up killing their partner because they haven't felt safe for years. I know, I'm not saying that. Right. But anyway, can you tell our listeners about that? Because I just feel like I kept thinking about you while reading this book.

[B]

Yes. I spent many years researching battered women who kill their abusers. And that's a. That's a actual term coined by Lenore walker in, like, 1979. It was first introduced, and it's still utilized as a defense in cases because battered women will strike back and kill their abusers. And we can talk about what that looks like, and we'll talk about a couple specific cases that we found, Ashley, that this reminded us about. Um, but I will tell you from one of the cases that I have talked about on books with your besties before, which is Wendy Maldonado out of Oregon. She and her son killed her Husband. There's an HBO documentary on it called Every Effing Day of My Life. So you can go and watch it. It's very dark, but there's very, very well documented, very extreme abus in the household for decade. And she and her son killed her husband. And then she calls 911 and the 911 operator says, like, have you. Has he ever hurt you before? Because she says, I just killed my husband. And they. And they say, has he ever hurt you before? And she says, every effing day of my life. So that's why the documentary is titled that. It's really, really moving and compelling. And I. I think it's kind of a must watch for everybody just to see what this really looks like. At any rate, one of the things Wendy Maldonado said that stuck with me is she said I was an animal caught in a trap and I basically chewed off my own arm to get out of it. And so thinking about that, like in this book, that's what Joy did, Right. She fought back. And here's the thing that Tiffany Crumb did is she made it in the moment self defense. Xander was physically abusing Joy in the moment, and then Joy took an object right nearby and hit him to incapacitate him despite stop abusing her. That is like the classic self defense model.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then he died. So I don't know. I don't want to get ahead of what we're going to talk about. Should we talk about the two other. The two cases that we were looking at and just sort of that, that brought up this interest for us or where that came from?

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think we should, because in the scenario in the book, I feel like if, if Joy went in front of a jury and again, this is what you've studied, but it seems like a very, very clear case of self defense. And would be a hard time saying, like, she did not intentionally kill him, she killed him because if she didn't, she was worried that he might kill her, if that makes sense. But in these cases that you and I have been looking at and talking about, they were not in the moment being abused, but they had suffered years of horrific abuse and just got to the point where it was clear this was their only way out to protect themselves and their families.

[B]

Yeah, it's like a near them. Yeah. And here's what. I'll tell you why the battered women who kill is so critical to look at. It's very, very rare that women are gonna like overpower their abuser in the moment. Of being abused. They've. There's already a power dynamic typically present in those and they're stronger. Usually. It's. If you're talking about kind of the typical, most common scenario, it does not mean it's all of them. I would never, ever negate that. There is domestic violence that happens with all different types of per. Perpetrators on all different types of victims. All cross race, socio economic status, genders. Absolutely. This is not about that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We are talking about one specific type of abuse and that is men abusing women and women striking back and killing the man. Men just by nature, on average, are larger and stronger. They have higher testosterone, higher levels of aggression. Of course, you're going to also sit there and be like, I'm stronger than my husband. Well, that's great. But that's not, not often the dynamic in these relationships. Right. Like the fact that the man has been successfully abusing the woman for many years probably speaks to the fact that he is stronger, more powerful. Yes. If my husband was like tiny and frail and he tried to hit me, I could. Yeah. Knock him out, that'd be great. I don't think it would go that direction. Right. But that's, that's the point. And here's my really big tangent. I'm like ultra feminist lately because part of it is, I think, you know, dinosaurs used to rule the earth. You're like, what the hell, Emily? Where are we going with this? Dinosaurs, okay? Dinosaurs ruled Earth. Do you know why? Do you know why dinosaurs ruled? Because they were the biggest and they could eat everything else. Right. By brute force. They just became the, like the premier ruler of the earth. Well, then there was an extinction event and they're gone. And the next thing that evolved and became the top should have been probably lions or something, right? Hippos. They're really mean, but they're slow. And we can outsmart them and we can create structures they can't get through. Right. So we actually did because of our brains. So humans, like, I feel like, like evolved. And now all the religious people are shouting at me. It's because of Adam and Eve. Um, okay, but so here we go. I think humans rule. Guess what? Within humans, there are originally male and female embryos. Right. That are created. And so we have these two different genders that have emerged and they have different strengths. Man go out strong. Youth club beat animal to death, Bring back meat. Woman take care of nurturing, take care of everything else. Right. When you look at a whole lot of things, it's like the men. Men were supposed to go out, like fight off dangers, get food, bring back and that's it. Okay, but guess why they rule. Guess why they're in charge? Because they're bigger and stronger and they can beat us and rape us and hurt us and kill us. And so women defer to the violence. And this is the same thing in this kind of relationship. Did I even come back? Naturally? Anyway, what is women's strength here? Women are going to try to save their own lives. People might say, oh, just leave, just leave. You cannot. And in fact in these cases, why can you not? Because you have children, because they have so isolated you that you have no recourse or way out. Right? What are you going to do? Go into witness self proclaimed witness protection. With what money? You're so, you're just going to like leave? I mean, I love the movie Sleeping with the Enemy with Julia Roberts if you have not ever seen that. It's like from like 1989 or something. And I watch it like every two years. Years, probably maybe once a year because it's just one of my favorites. But like she saves all this money for a billion years and like fakes her own death swimming and I mean it's like so complex for her to go like get a new identity and then you never again can speak to anybody that you know because they will find you if you do. Are you sure you can just do that? One, okay. And do you have the resources? Okay, two, they often threaten other people in your life. So you're like, like, they're like, if you leave me, I will kill your mother. So you're like, well I'll just leave and then mama will go. And the thing is they are so violent or dangerous or scary that you believe them, you know, that you're putting other people at, at risk. And so it's easy to look at and say just leave. But that's really not an option for a lot of women. And in these significant violent situations, they often do end up in fatalities. The number one cause of death for women is their partners in terms of homicides. Not that's not the leading cause of actual death, but like the leading cause of death in homicides is a partner homicide. So anyway, all of that to say women are very unlikely to like wrestle the gun away from the man in the moment and then shoot him or like overpower them and strangle them to death. So they wait until they're incapacitated, until they're sleeping, until they are on drugs, until, till they're drunk and passed out and Then they kill him.

[A]

And then the hard part is that then that has a less likelihood of being seen as self defense. Right.

[B]

It's very hard to see it as self defense. So here we go. You guys are gonna kill me. I don't know how we got on this topic, but here it all goes. This is brings us to the concept of justifiable homicide, for one thing. So is there a time where it's justifiable to kill somebody? And then, and we as humans actually think there are conditions in which that's the case. And there have been cases and preced set before where we decide, yeah, somebody did have the right to kill somebody else, but we cannot because it doesn't meet the criteria for self defense. And juries are instructed to look carefully at the criteria and then match that up. We can and have the right to say we don't care, it's still not guilty. Like, yeah, we see that they're guilty and they did all the crime. But we can say not guilty if we want to. We have that right. It's called jury nullification. But they don't tell you that in court. Most people don't know that, that. So getting a jury of peers who are willing to buck the law and say, oh well, we'll just do what we want anyway is you're taking a real gamble by going to a trial in this case. So you killed your husband while he was sleeping. Of course the prosecutor is going to bring first degree premeditated murder charges against you. You killed someone who was completely incapacitated and you, you murdered them in cold blood. Right. And they're going to make this whole case that you're this evil, cold blooded person and you have to then have some defense. And who's the jury likely to believe if they don't understand these cases well, and they don't understand how this looks and happens and they don't know they have the right to say not guilty. They may not. Also, people still don't like when people kill other people. They're like, well he didn't kill you, so you, he just because he was hitting you, he could have gotten help and whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like this could have. There could have been other ways out of this. And so they're gonna get you on something. So anyway, point being, yeah, these women know that they're looking at something and they often plead out to take a deal, plea deal. So Wendy Maldonado, who I just mentioned, took a deal for 10 years. 10 years for manslaughter to go to jail, prison let's. Ashley, tell us about these other cases.

[A]

One of the cases that we have been talking about, which I don't know why we keep having cases out of Arizona, but I guess that we just love Arizona. This case is out of Phoenix, and it is a woman named Rebecca Mellon. And Rebecca Mellon shot and killed her husband. It is on camera. After she shot and killed her husband, she smoked a cigarette and waited 20 minutes to call 91 1. So you hear this and you just think, that is. That is horrific. You shoot your husband, you wait 20 minutes to call 91 1, and you just sit down and you have a smoke while he's in the middle of dying. If you look further into her story, she had suffered years of horrific abuse in front of her son, dragging her to the ground, punching her in the back of the head, pouring water over her head, roundhouse slapping her. This, all of these things that we saw on their surveillance camera inside of their house happened in one week. So what have we not seen? If this is one week of the domestic violence that was on tape that she was receiving daily from her husband, it's one thing. One quote from truecrimenews.com says Rebecca comes outside. She walks towards Mr. Mellon. He walks toward her. He grabs her by the shirt, drags her by her feet, pulls her up by the shirt and throws her into the pool. Comes inside and locks the door.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the years of horrific abuse at his hands.

[B]

She waited till he was asleep and then shot him. And. And she waited. Yeah, 23 minutes or something. Right. She actually pled guilty to second degree murder. So she's serving a sentence of 18 to 22 years. I mean, she saw the writing on the wall. Anyone's gonna see that video of her sitting down, smoking a cigarette after she shot her husband. And they said if he had had attention sooner, he may have survived. Why she. That's not the point. She wanted him to die. Like, two. Then what? He's got brain damage and she has to take care of him, her abuser, for the rest of his life. She was. She was done. And then what's the other case, Ash?

[A]

Another case is Melissa Deval, who had also been abused by her husband for years and ended up beating him to death with a hammer. Initially, she claimed that he was attacking her and that her neighbor came over and was the one that beat him with a hammer. But after some evidence and blood. Blood pattern, blood splatter, whatever it's called, like looking at where the blood went and how it splattered. What is that?

[B]

Called blood stain analysis.

[A]

She eventually just admitted to saying, I am the one who did it. It was me. But again, it was after years of suffering horrific abuse from her husband. He had strangled her before he had beat her. He. It just feels like at some point, if you as the woman don't do this and you're not able to get away, you're. Then the other choice is that at some point they kill you, but it's after years of slowly killing you.

[B]

Yeah. She was sentenced to first degree murder by like life in prison. I mean, that's the thing. And it brings up some other cases that we want to talk about in the future. But that's the thing is that these cases, women know they're not going to be looked upon favorably at all in these cases and they know that they don't have a chance in court. So they plead for time or they get sentenced to life in prison. So they saved their own life, but now they spend the rest of their life behind bars. I don't know. If you watch the Wendy Maldonado case, then you'll know what I'm talking about. I will tell you that I used to do for years in my psych and law classes, I would have students come in, we would talk about the concept of battered women who killed their abusers. We would talk about the conditions. And I would give them sort of a theoretical condition of like if somebody is sleeping and they are beaten to death with an ax, you know, to the head, which is what Wendy Maldonado and her son did. An ax and a hammer like. And look, this woman did it with a hammer also. Then, you know, do you think that they should go to jail? And I'll have them silent ballot vote. And they always vote. You know, a bunch of people think they should go get life sentence. A lot of people think they should get like a manslaughter style, 10 to 12 year sentence. And some people think they should get not guilty up front. And then I'll have them watch the documentary on Wendy Maldonado and they will almost all come out with no jail time or very few will come out with, with jail time. Like, a few will still be like, they still need to be beholden to what they did.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's never again then like life in prison. The problem is that kind of documentation isn't out there. And guess what? The one where it was documented for a week that she was being abused, she didn't actually go to trial. There was no trial. So those videos weren't shown to A jury because she pled guilty to second degree murder because she didn't want to take the chance for her whole life in prison.

[A]

It's just so. I mean, I think one of the things that Tiffany Crumb did masterfully, just to bring it back to the book for a second, is that when Joy is in the women's shelter and she's having this relationship with. I think it's Natalia or someone who says, this is like my fifth or sixth time in the shelter. I don't remember how many times she says, but she's like, I come back here, my husband kind of has a cooling off period, and then I go home. Brings to light the. And I don't know the actual statistic, but I think it's something like it takes women an average of six times eventually to leave. So I just think it's so unfair to say, well, why don't they just leave? Like, if you can beat him with a hammer in the middle of the night, why can't you just drive away and leave? Why can't you just leave? I just feel like that's such an unfair question. And then again, I could go off on this forever. Just like saying, like, why did you marry a loser? Just places the blame on the woman. Why didn't you leave? That's not the right question. Why did he abuse you? And. But do you know what I mean? Like, asking the woman, why didn't you leave? Is just blaming the victim in so many different ways.

[B]

If that's true, I'm like, why didn't police make him stop? Or why didn't he have to stop? Usually there's documented domestic violence calls, and these multiple times where, you know, officers respond to them. I know. Well, okay, so here's what I loved. Here's what I loved. Joy killed him with the Fonz, which is fantastic. And I like, how many people were involved in covering up the death or covering up the murder or we'll call it a murder, even though I think it's a justifiable homicide. So she kills Xander Luna, Benny's ex wife, who is an attorney, is there and is like, we have to call 91 1. And Carlotta, the judge is like, no, we don't. I've seen how these go. I just put picture myself there, right? The people who have, like, understand this. Like, see how these go would be

[A]

like, do we though?

[B]

Are you sure? Like, do we need to make her have this? This, like, ruin her life for the rest of her life? So she says, no, we'll Cover it up. And then, oh, my gosh. An amazing thing that I think Tiffany did so well is she focused this and centered this on women helping women and women guiding this. But she also put a man in there, Emile, who's like, yeah, I have a skill, and I can figure this out. I'll make this look like a car accident, because my skills as a former stunt man know I know how to do that plague like that. We love a male ally, don't we?

[A]

We absolutely do. And what a skill to bring to the table to know how to make this look like it was an accident and help them cover it up. I also love that Carlotta, who had observed this domestic violence happening, did say to her in, like, a very stern way, like, can I take you to the shelter now?

[B]

Are you ready? I know.

[A]

Yes. Are you ready? That's what she said. That gave me goosebumps. Like, women helping women, but also being like, okay, is this the straw that, like, is this it for you? Are you out? Let's. Let's get you out of here.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was a great book. It had everything I like.

[A]

It was. I even loved at the end. Benny was like. Or like, someday, do you think you're gonna want to tell the police? And Joy was like, no, no.

[B]

Like, I thought it was an extremely happy ending. Xander's gone, and everybody's cool about it. Everybody's good. Totally.

[A]

Then they're just gonna move on and have their. And now they're doing live shows with the podcast and writing books and just crushing it.

[B]

Trauma, shmama. They're fine.

[A]

Everybody's gonna be just fine. Wait, did you think last thing? And then this episode. So long. But did you think in the end where she said to Benny, I think I'm ready.

[B]

Did you think that meant that they

[A]

were gonna have a baby? Do you remember that? No.

[B]

She had a hysterectomy. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God. We have to take that part out. I'm so bad at reading books. Okay, I'm gonna go back and listen to that, because I want. I don't remember what it was she was talking about when she said that.

[B]

I don't. I didn't know that. I don't know. I. Maybe at the end, I was just, like, emotional and happy and, like, loved the little podcast, and it gave. Brought me joy. So joy.

[A]

So I just felt good. Well, we could tell you what to read and listen to next week, but we never plan that far ahead, so just stay tuned.

[B]

Well, next week is definitely going to be the cave book.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So you can for sure.

[B]

So not. Not next week, but in two weeks. Because since we're in every other week kind of pod.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We are going to be dropping a podcast on Taylor Adams book, Her Last Breath. So that is one to definitely read or listen to. I mean, same thing. But, you know, ears or eyes. And then also we just both downloaded Long Bright river by Liz Moore, so. So we're gonna read that and maybe do a pod on it. And I think we should do an episode on Miranda Smith's Smile for the Cameras.

[A]

Yes, do. Let's do that for sure.

[B]

Because I think it'll be just fun, too, to talk about kind of like our childhood and getting into thriller books and movies that back in, like, the 90s when they were the absolute best, like the thriller horror flicks that came out in that time, we got to talk about them. And it's like, like right in line with that book. So I think it'll be some fun stuff.

[A]

Okay, I'll read it. And that's what we're going to talk about.

[B]

Might we change our minds? Probably. Probably. Like, you're going to be like, none of those three books came out of the podcast. We apologize, but not really. Not. Not wholeheartedly.

[A]

You guys love. You guys love us like this. Just pure chaos.

[B]

That's why we have people that now help coordinate our chaos. But we are going to probably do those three. I think those three are. Three are on the list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. Bye, besties. Bye. Thanks for listening.

[B]

For more content, find us on Patreon at the Creepy Book Club.

[A]

Happy reading.