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Brave Writer
110. (S7E2) The Educational Value of Video Games, with Ash Brandin
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- [00:06]
A
Welcome back. I'm excited for you to tune in to today's podcast. Typically, I get asked questions about this topic. Oh, I don't know, about a gazillion times a week for being a writing program. I never expected that the number one question people would ask me has nothing to do with writing. I think the fact that I raised five kids during the Internet era. Everyone is dying to know what I think about. Are you already anticipating me? Do you already know what the question is? Video games. Oh my gosh. I mean, will they turn into demented little people if they play Mortal Kombat? That's the question. How many hours? How many minutes? How many days? Are they too violent? Is it okay if they love Minecraft? Will they turn into people? People who never get jobs? This is today's topic. Today's guest is someone that was introduced to me by a Brave Writer fan on Instagram. I immediately tuned in to this person's Instagram stories and was mesmerized by the expertise, the whimsical manner in which they shared their story and shared their ideas. And I just knew that I wanted to get to know this person better. And that person is Ash Brandon, a middle school teacher from Golden, Colorado. After researching the use of video games in classrooms, Ash found that there was very little research and about how games compel players to play and how this can be brought into the classroom or any educational environment. Since 2016, Ash has spoken across the country about how academic spaces can mimic game structures to make learning compelling, motivating and engaging. That's good news, right? Ash believes games, specifically entertainment games, can help us create better teaching, more engaged learning, and motivated lifelong learners. I don't know about you, but I think I just heard a hallelujah chorus break out behind me. Their perspective as an educator focuses on how game structures can benefit teachers, students and classroom settings. Of course, in our case, homeschool living rooms. In addition to teaching and gaming, Ash loves baking, hiking, and going to car shows with their child. Please join me with a full hearted welcome to today's guest, Ash Brandon. Hello, Ash. I am so thrilled to have you on the Brave Writer podcast. Thank you, Julie.
- [03:08]
B
I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.
- [03:10]
A
It's awesome to have you here. I've had customers reach out to me on Instagram and Direct Message and they ask me, are you following Ash? They are doing stories on computer gaming, all about competency and autonomy and I immediately went to your Instagram account and started following you and was mesmerized. Can you say hello, Tell us a little bit about this Instagramming about video gaming that you're up to?
- [03:39]
B
Sure. So to your audience, I'm Ash Brandon. My pronouns are they, them. And I'm a teacher out of Colorado in the kind of Front Range. And I have been a public school teacher for 10 years, but I've been a gamer for my whole life basically, and have always really enjoyed video games. And when I was getting my master's degree about 10 years ago, I at the time was an orchestra teacher. And that was sort of the height of the Guitar Hero rock Band era.
- [04:12]
A
Oh, yes.
- [04:14]
B
And those are actually really similar to the way that we would teach string instruments. So I needed to find an area to do some research and I thought, surely some teacher is using this as a tool. Some. Surely somebody's bringing this in. And so I went to see the research that existed and I found that there wasn't any at all anything written for teachers. It was in this way that was very eye opening to me. It was written like, what is a Nintendo Wii? You know, what is Guitar Hero? And I thought, oh, okay. So either that either the educator audience really is this far removed or, you know, kind of Big E education thinks they're this removed. And neither of those are good because kids increasingly are more and more just completely immersed in the language of games. And so I thought, okay, so like, this isn't really being talked about in educator spaces. So I'll look in video game spaces and I'll go to them and I'll see what they're doing. So I started going to video game conferences and. And anything that was toward education was really taking all the good gaming things out of the game. It was making us sort of gimmicky. And I would sit in these and there would not be any teachers there to talk about it. So nobody could talk about why it would be effective or how it would work in a classroom or how this could really help kids. And it just came off just really at odds with what teachers know as authentic educational experience. And so I thought, okay, so like, they designed the game, they should know what makes these games engaging. But they're taking that out when they make these educator tools. I wonder if that's because that's what they think educators want. And educators don't know what makes these games engaging because they're not playing them. So I guess I need to fill this.
- [06:13]
A
That's amazing. So you saw this gap between the kinds of games that are created with educational objective versus the games that kids actually play. And the educators who are getting these educational games aren't gamers. So they don't even realize that the games aren't engaging. Isn't that amazing? Totally makes sense to me that way.
- [06:36]
B
It's like, oh, well, of course nobody realized it, but at the time I kind of gazed around and thought, how can, how can this not be obvious to people? But I, okay, I guess, need to fill it. So I started really diving in to using my educator background, really looking at what are games allowing people to achieve from almost like an ed. Psych perspective.
- [06:59]
A
Yes.
- [06:59]
B
And I really dove into game structure and game design and what those things are doing from a psychological perspective and thought, okay, I'm never gonna tell an educator and I'm never gonna be successful if I tell an educator, like, oh, just haul an Xbox into your classroom.
- [07:18]
A
Right.
- [07:18]
B
It's going to become one of those things that teachers are like, yeah, right. And I don't blame them. All right. I was one of them too. So I thought, okay, well, what if we take the structures and other mechanics that are happening in the game and find ways to restructure their delivery of our content? So we don't need to change content. We have great content. But if we change the delivery and structure of that content, we can make it feel more game like and more meaningful to kids. And I started giving these talks about this at mostly video game conferences that would attract kind of spectators, gamers and professionals who just liked games. And I had really wonderful reception from that. And so I've been speaking about that in those venues for about five years, up until the COVID era. Oh, wow. I just thought, well, all right, we'll just pivot and put it all online.
- [08:16]
A
Well, you know what's interesting is that you have the potential to reach this other audience. Homeschoolers deal with the video game question in kind of a unique way. And I joke about it all the time. My company is about writing and home education. But the number one question I get behind writing is, is what should I do about video games? And we joke about it. It doesn't matter what the topic is. We teach in our coaching community. It doesn't matter if we're talking about your intimate life with your partner as our coaching topics. Someone will bring up the question of video games. And really the thing that they are wondering, and I think that is unique for homeschoolers, is quantity. If you have a child who goes to school, they're out of the house for eight hours, ten hours a day. And so video games end up taking up a smaller portion of that child's life. But if you are home full time, similar to traditionally educated kids in the summer, for instance. But if you're home all the time for your learning, parents go through this real big hand wring. Do we let them on for two hours a day, a half hour a day? Only on weekends is it okay in the mornings before they do their math homework, you know, like how do we think about gaming? Most homeschoolers that are in my space see gaming as having some value and I want to talk through some of that with you, but do you have anything to say about quantity?
- [09:48]
B
That is such an interesting thing to ponder and I hadn't really considered that. And I'm sure honestly, even for non homeschooling communities, that that's actually coming up a whole lot this year with kids.
- [09:59]
A
Yes.
- [10:00]
B
During COVID then they have way more time or parents aren't home or they are working and cannot be monitoring. Yeah. And even just a lot of games now especially are mobile games. Right. So then that's even harder to kind of police and monitor. Like do we micromanage? I was looking at some stories of yours and I remember that you mentioned about screens that in general we should really be thinking about, you know, quality of what the engagement is and what purpose is it serving and do we see it creating a problem somewhere else? And so that's probably my immediate response. Similar to, you know, if we substitute in any kind of other activity where if we think about substituting video games and instead we think about like candy, Right. Like another kind of desirable thing that we wonder how we should monitor. What I would shy away from as a parent and an educator is I don't want to create a scarcity mindset with my child or with any child because the moment that I start treating the game like this sort of limited, hands off, very special thing that creates this scarcity mindset and then that is all the kid is going to think about. What do I have to do to get to that game? How can I evade my parent or my adult to get to the game? Right. Or similar with candy. Right. Like they said, I can have one piece if I eat my broccoli, but I see that they put it in the closet. So now how can I get it? So I think it's more about having access and exposure to those things, but also being really open about what they are consuming. If I have a child who is not wanting me to see what they're consuming, then I'm going to be a Little more concerned. But if it's part of our everyday life and it's a part of a leisure activity, you know, maybe we just have an hour a day that's open leisure.
- [11:54]
A
Right.
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B
And that can be Lego, it can be outside, it can be baking, it can be video games. But just finding a way to put it in the day in a structured way that still allows students to choose to engage with it. And I'm going to say students a lot. I'm sorry, Because I.
- [12:09]
A
They are. Our kids are students. They're homeschool students.
- [12:13]
B
Right, of course. But I'll use those fairly interchangeably. But I'm always talking about, you know, whatever role kids are serving in our lives. But when we really try to structure it and say, oh, we'll have 30 minutes a day, we'll have this, we'll have that, that can be a way, I think, to introduce kids to how they can kind of structure it for themselves. But we also all know that there are going to be times that that's just not going to apply. And I think we really want to raise kids who feel like they have the ability to engage with these activities because they feel enjoyable, but that they also know that they can put them away. Just like we want a kid who can eat half the Hershey bar and save half later and not feel like I have to eat the whole thing right now because I don't know when I'll get it again.
- [12:58]
A
Such a good example. In fact, it makes me think about when you talked about the role of the video game itself in the child's life. You mentioned something about the framework of the rules and how that allows the game to be played, played successfully, and that there could be a mirroring of that in the boundaries a parent sets for how they function in their family. Could you talk a little more about that? Because I thought it was brilliant.
- [13:25]
B
Absolutely. So one of the things that I talk about and have been talking about on Instagram and comes up with my talks is people are always wanting to figure out why is it that games are so compelling. Oh, my kid wants to play this game for seven hours, but I can't get them to sit down and read this book. And really, it's because games are inherently intrinsically motivating. And educators spaces, we hear these terms all the time, intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And we often end up using games as an extrinsic motivator.
- [14:00]
A
Right.
- [14:01]
B
Like finish your homework and then you can go play Minecraft. But the game itself is deeply, intrinsically motivating. And it has to be because if games weren't motivating, then they wouldn't sell copies.
- [14:14]
A
Correct.
- [14:14]
B
They can't just entice you through reward. They have to get you to want to play. And there are three psychological factors that make intrinsic motivation really happen. And they're competency, this feeling of like, oh, I did it. Autonomy, A feeling which I'll get to more in a second because we often think of it as feeling independent, but it's a little more than that. And relatedness, which is feeling somehow relational to other people. And when it comes to rules, we often think of those as restrictive. But if we shift and think about the role of rules in a game, they are the thing we have to know right from the beginning. And if you think about, if you don't play video games, think about when you play a board game and you get all the pieces out and you set it all up and then what's the first thing you do? You read the rules.
- [15:04]
A
Totally. I just was talking about that. My son owns hundreds of board games. Literally he's 33. And it's interesting to watch his skill set of how he explains games because he's played so many. And it's really an actual skill to be able to accommodate each of these novice players and help them actually be successful with something they know nothing about from the beginning. Yeah, that is always the first step. So true.
- [15:33]
B
Absolutely. And a lot of what I talk about with video games really does apply to. To board games and lots of hobby type activities. But yeah, we want to know the rules, right. You go into a new space, you go into the DMV and you're like, where do I go? What do I do? Right. I go to a new coffee shop, especially in the COVID era, and I'm like, where do I go? What can I touch? What is allowed of me? And those are all rules as rules and structures. So one of the most effective things that games do are they present gamers with a world of rules. And those rules are very clear and they don't change. And those are very important things. They're clear from the beginning. So the game will make it really clear. Right. Whatever your game is, here's the level you can go to. When you press this button, you will always jump. There's always ways that rules are going to show up. But if the game says you can kick by pressing B, you know you're always going to kick to press B. If one of those times you press B and you punched instead, you would feel betrayed.
- [16:40]
A
Yes.
- [16:41]
B
And you would feel. And this is where the autonomy comes in. You would feel a loss of control. What autonomy does from the psychological perspective is it gives you the feeling of control. I have control over this thing. And we don't often think about rules as giving a sense of control. But when we set the stage of here is what this looks like. Here is this game world. Here's where you can go, here's what your moves are. Once we've set those rules, then it's completely up to the player what they do with those rules. They are now completely in control. We've given them complete transparency. Here's what you can do, here's what you can't. And then they have the control of what they do with it. And in a home space, like when we set boundaries and rules, we often think of it as like, oh, I'm having to police, or I'm having to enforce, or like, I'm having to restrict. But if you think about being a kid who opens up a new video game, that's the first thing they want to know. What do I have to do? What's the first thing I need to do? They want to be told what to do so that then they can exert their control over the things within their control. And when we set those boundaries, I like to think of it as like, I'm designing the level, right? Like, I'm setting out the walls of the level. And if in a game, for example, if I try to go somewhere that I can't go, the game reinforces the rule, right? The game will say, you can't go there yet. You don't have enough points. You haven't learned the right moves. The game doesn't admonish me.
- [18:19]
A
It doesn't, you know, it's not emotionally invested. It's presenting you with some information to help you be success.
- [18:27]
B
Whoops, you can't go here yet. Yeah, and that puts it right back on me. Oh, I can't go there yet. But I am now in control of where I do go. Do I go power up so I can go to that new level? Do I go do something I did before because I found it enjoyable? The rule is just reinforced and stated. Then I can go back. When I think of that in a home sense, I think, okay, my child needs me to lay out this level or this space or these ground rules so that they know where they can feel that control.
- [18:59]
A
It's an interesting question because I think one of the issues that home educators face is that we are not an institution Home is a place where you sort of kick off your shoes. You sometimes feel liberated from all the rules and roles that you have to take outside the building of your house. And I know for me personally, the last thing I want is somebody to tell me how I'm supposed to behave when I'm at home. Want to have to wear a bra if I don't want to. I don't want to wear shoes if I don't want to. I want to go get a snack because I'm hungry, not because I have to wait until noon for lunch. So there is sort of this anti rule feeling about home. And yet, for those of us who are homeschoolers, we're also trying to deliver some level of education. And so everything's combined. The feeling of being at ease, the feeling of wanting to deliver content, the feeling of home maintenance and leisure, they're sort of all rolled together into this one big ball. The language that you just used, though, that I'm kind of playing with in my own imagination is this idea of creating a level. I can already picture riffing off that with my audience, like, well, what if we're creating the level for the educational portion of the day? What would that look like? And actually creating the room for it to happen. I think where we get stuck and listening to you, this is why I found you so inspiring. I think we get stuck with language that brings a lot of that blame, shame, policing and control, as opposed to, hey, here's the structure that allows you to be the most successful so you can have the most pleasure, so that your life will be the most rewarding. Isn't that why we play games? So all those things happen?
- [20:45]
B
Yeah. And I'm sure that a lot of. I'm sure the homeschool community was probably looking at the rest of the world in the last year and going like, welcome.
- [20:56]
A
That's literally what happened. Revolutionary feeling for me. I went from oddity to authority overnight outside the homeschool space. Right.
- [21:05]
B
My spouse has worked from home for the better part of 10 years. I obviously have not because I'm a classroom teacher. Most of the time this year I am entirely at home. And I was saying to you earlier that I'm actually teaching this year out of my guest bedroom closet. And that was not because I, like, needed. At first I thought I needed a classroom space, but I really did not. This was entirely for me, and it was exactly for what you described. I knew that I could not, like, I could not sit at the kitchen table because I would have such a Difficult time of knowing, okay, am I at work now or am I at home? And obviously that's particularly difficult because I'm not someone who's done that before, but I have, you know, my. This is my office now. But I even have, like, the sign on my door that I used to have in my classroom that says, like, mix, Brandon's room is open or closed. And at the start of every day, I turn it to open. And at the end of every day, when I have decided I'm done, I'm not answering any more email, then I turn it to closed. And it's amazing, like you were talking about with this level idea. It's amazing sometimes how powerful that can be of just reframing and with students even, right? If I had a student or a child at home who I was really actively educating out of this space, maybe they would be the one to turn the sign, okay, school's in session. And then at the end of the day, okay, now we're at home. Now, like, we're leaving the school space. That stays here. And those. That's just really powerful framing for our brains because it also gives us permission to kind of relax into a home
- [22:39]
A
space
- [22:42]
B
or maybe, like, take on that air of being in the education space.
- [22:46]
A
That's a very interesting concept. One of the things that we have done in our community is I talk about how to borrow some of the home energy into the education. Because kids do know that the school idea is a little bit artificial here. So just to give you an example, we talk about enchanting the education, which I think has some gaming potential, sort of an analogical feel. So, for instance, when our kids are, let's say, working on writing, can they take a clipboard and go sit in the corner of the sectional and do their writing that way? While they're petting the cat, could they sit at the kitchen table and light a candle? Because candles are pretty, and running your fingers through the flame is great in between each sentence. So there's this gamification a little bit of trying to bring. Because what I'm hearing you say about the intrinsic motivation of gaming is there is some hit that occurs right when you jump over the thing in a puzzle platform and it's successful. That is just a great dang feeling. And if you jump over it and you miss, you immediately want to go try again, right? There's a little bit of a. Like, you're not just being trained to click a button, which is the way a lot of schooling is. It's like, okay, do These problems. But is there anything that makes doing the problem give you that little validation hit? Do you hear what I'm saying? What do you think about that? How are you reconceiving how you teach, knowing what you know about gamification?
- [24:20]
B
Yeah, I do completely hear what you're saying. And I mentioned the other day, you know, like, we want. And kids want to go try that level 100 times, 200 times, however many times it takes. It takes simply. And I think that this is something that we often look at kids playing games and think, oh, they're wasting their time. Like, they're doing this thing instead of. And that instead of that we put on there is pretty powerful because we're thinking instead of homework, reading, outside play. But what we really mean is instead of something more worthwhile.
- [24:58]
A
Yes, yes.
- [24:59]
B
And that's a message that our kids receive. Right. Then they receive, this thing that I'm doing is not as worthwhile as this other thing my adult has decided is more worthy. And honestly, the onus is kind of on the adult to really figure out, like, what is it about this activity? Not only that makes it engaging for my kid, but that they. What are they actually getting out of it? And it's hard sometimes when you see a kid playing a platformer like you brought up, and you just see them, you know, they're trying and they fall in the lava, and they fall in the lava, then you're like, what are they? They're not getting anything out of that. But if we instead look at that and see them try that, you know, for 15, 30 minutes, an hour, sometimes kids will try one thing over and over and instead think, my kid was able to have enough resiliency to try this a hundred times, 200 times, because they found it important, because they found it worthy of doing. And that right there, at least for me, you know, I have a. I have a fairly young child, so they haven't really. Like, this is not something that's really come up with them as much. But when I see my child trying to do something with their Lego and I'm thinking like, oh, would you just put the block on the top? Oh, my God, you know, how long is it going to take? But when I see that they've done it and it's taken them five minutes to put this Lego together, I see, oh, they did this thing because it was important to them. And they have this sense, like, you brought up, of accomplishment. And in the intrinsic motivation sense, what they're feeling is incredible competence, this feeling of, I did this thing and I had to try a lot of times. And if I had to try a lot of times to do this thing, that means I can do other hard things that might take me a long time. And sometimes it can be as simple as just borrowing that example, right? Like if I see a kid who is attempting a Mario level over and over and over again and then they finally get it, even just reminding them and framing that resiliency as just as valuable as academic resiliency, right? Oh, you're working so hard on this math problem. I remember the other day you played that Mario level for 100 times until you got it right. I know that you'll do this until you can get it right. I know you can do that. Because then what we're saying is this activity that you were doing that you find valuable, I see the value in that and I think that's also really powerful for kids to hear.
- [27:55]
A
Let's step aside for a moment to talk about Brave Writer each year we hold a brave popular event known as the Big Bonanza Book Reveal to announce our book collections for the coming school year. These collections are organized by age. The books are meant to be read aloud. We then write month long programs for each book that can be used by parents and educators to teach grammar, spelling, punctuation and literary devices to children and teens. Based on the novel of the month, these programs also include discussion questions and book club party ideas. We have four collections. The first one is called the Dart and It's for ages 8 to 10. We have the arrow for ages 11 and 12, the boomerang for ages 13 and 14, and a brand new collection called the slingshot for ages 15 to 18. The book reveals are held on two days. June 1st will be for the dart and the arrow and June 2will be for the Boomerang and Slingshot. Think of these events as the NFL draft of books. Families from around the globe participate by watching together. And you know what? Your kids get so excited for the coming year because they get to hear the description of the storylines in each book. Trust me, it is the highlight of the year in Brave Writer. We hope that you'll mark your calendar and join us for the Big Bonanza Book Reveals. If you want the details about how to sign up for those events, they will be sent to you via email and shared on social media. To be sure you don't miss a thing, get on our email newsletter list by going to brave writer.com news n e w s brave writer.com news can't wait to see you at the big Bonanza book reveal. I think when we treat gaming always as leisure, we're actually missing what it feels like to the child. I often joke, parents will say to me, oh, I can't let my child play the game because she's just a different person when she's finished. She's so frustrated. And I'll say, well, have you ever made a recipe that flopped? Have you ever played a game of tennis and you lost? Games lead you to frustration. I remember my parents gave me Monopoly in seventh grade for my birthday. And so we all sat down and played the board game and I was the first one out. My dad and brother just ran over me, demolished me. I was in tears. I went into my bedroom sobbing and I was angry about the game. I was like, how dare you make me lose on my birthday?
- [30:49]
B
Like I.
- [30:52]
A
But that didn't reveal an addiction to gaming or non gaming or any of it. What it was was that I had an investment in the outcome of that play. And that's what we're seeing in gaming. When kids punch a hole in the wall and some of them will, it's a chance for you to engage with them around the emotional regulation, the level of investment, helping them through a play version that feels perfectly real of dashed dreams and hopes because life's going to deal them those blows and being able to give them that facsimile in something that is less dire. Losing Monopoly is a great way to parent.
- [31:31]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, everything you just said so strongly. But yeah, and I love that you brought up the adult examples. Right. Like we engage in leisure activities and for some adults it is also video games, but it might be building a puzzle.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right. And how frustrated do you feel when you can't find the stinking piece that goes right there and just can't find it? And you might get up and take a break or you might get up and make yourself a cup of coffee, but you're also probably going to come back and finish the puzzle.
- [32:02]
A
Yes.
- [32:03]
B
So like to the, to the parent you brought up who is saying, like, oh my child, like she's just so different and she's so frustrated after that game. Well, it could be that, you know, she is recognizing I am frustrated. I am at a point where this is too much for me and she's taking a break, that actually sounds like really great regulation to me to say this thing is too much. I'm stepping away from this thing.
- [32:27]
A
Right.
- [32:27]
B
Like when I'm trying to find the puzzle piece or I put too much baking soda in the cookies, because I live at high elevation and they flatten into one giant cookie. Right. And I'm annoyed. But I can put them in the trash, or I can get out more butter and try again. And I'm not gonna never bake again. I'm gonna be frustrated. But if anything, like you said, it's a great way to process those real emotions in a safer space with lower stakes.
- [32:58]
A
Yes.
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B
One of the things that games do, which is one of the reasons kids are willing to try something again and again and again, is that the failure in a game is often really quite small in relation to the feeling of competence that comes after the success.
- [33:15]
A
That's so true.
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B
Like, if I don't jump on the platform and I fall in the lava, like, okay, I have to try again.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah. And it lets you try again. There's so much forgiveness in games. Like, a lot of times we think, oh, well, the game is really dumb. But actually, no, what it is, is the incremental leap we're asking the player to take each time is reasonable. It's not too hard. I like parents to remember that when they're teaching, like, much smaller. We have a quote in Brave Writer. I say all the time, lower the bar to experience success. Do less, do fewer, do part. Do it together. Give your kids that same sense of, I fell in the lava. I can jump right back and try again.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah. When I was in Orchestra world and in school for Music education, there's a professor at UT whose name I now cannot remember, of course. He would describe what he called racking up smiley faces like you described. Like, okay, you're trying to get your orchestra to do something. You're trying to get them to play this passage, and they just completely. They just fail, and it just completely falls apart. Don't go back and do the exact same thing again because you're setting them up for failure. Go back, lower the bar just enough so that, you know, like, I'm not lowering it to the floor, right. I'm not making it obvious that I'm going to, like, pitch them an easy one. I'm lowering it just enough so that I know that they can be successful. So then they're going to go through, get that rush of, like, oh, yes, I can do this. We can do this, and then we're going to do it again. This is one of the things I talk about a lot in my talks is. And this is very common talk in educator spaces, is this idea of scaffolding, of, like, moving people through this progressively difficult series of Things and games, as you alluded to, are excellent at doing that, great at it, because otherwise again, they would not sell. And the whole purpose of a game is that you often start in an easier place and end in a more difficult place. So they have to get the player from this relative novice place to this really advanced mastery level of the game tasks. And they have to do that by incrementally presenting maybe slightly new information, slightly more difficult information, old information in a slightly new way. There's lots of ways that games do this and if we mimic those ways, like we make something slightly more difficult or we take something we've done before, but we change how it's presented so it presents a new challenge or that is getting kids to engage with the activity in a way that's similar to a game where it's just incremental enough that they can say, oh, okay, kind of recognize what we're doing here. And I have at least some idea of how to approach this because I've dealt with this before. And then they feel that competence of like, oh, I think I know how to deal with this, I think I know what to try. And if we set the stage, then they also know that if they don't and if they're not successful, successful, that they'll just be able to try again completely.
- [36:27]
A
In fact, one of the things that you alluded to a moment ago that I think maybe pings off of what you just said. I was doing some research into gaming in the last week and one of the most interesting shifts I've seen in the research is that there's a lot more emotional well being from gaming that is being discovered in these studies than what they anticipated back in the early 2000s. I would say a big change occurred around 2011 and 2012 and now it's coming in in droves. And one of the pieces of literature that I saw, and I'm assuming this is a reputable study, I'm kind of tracking it down on the back end to make sure. But it said that they did a study with four groups of kids. One group were never gamers, they don't play at all. Another group was like one to six hours. Another group was seven to ten. And then what they called the excessive group was over 10 hours a week. Okay, so this is based on weeks. And of the four groups, the group with the least emotional regulation were the never gamers. And I mean, that floored me. They said the moderate group was the most emotionally healthy. And they said even the excessive kids were really good except there is one extreme category of some kids who really are sort of down the hole of what they might diagnose addiction. But from that extreme to the never gamer, everything in between is actually the healthiest. Yep, that blew my mind.
- [38:00]
B
Well, I'm glad, because more people need to be hearing those things. And I'm really glad you brought that up because I was going to try to find a way to. There's one particular doctor whose work I have really enjoyed as a gamer and educator. His name is Dr. Tyler Black, and he specializes in. And I'm probably going to get all of this wrong, so I apologize to him. He specializes in adolescent suicide ideation in adolescent psychiatry. And he's done a lot of work at looking at how video games influence suicide ideation. And he found exactly what you just said. His study that I remember was hours per day, I think, and it was like 01 to 4 and 5. Okay. And the kids who played one to four hours a day, and four hours a day is a lot like I. Right. I mean, I like games, but that's still a lot. They were much less likely to experience suicide ideation than kids who never played a game.
- [39:03]
A
That's amazing.
- [39:04]
B
One of the points he brings up a lot, which is every year is more and more true, is that the actual percentage of kids who have never played games is actually very small. Like, they're getting very. Like, in the 2% was the last that I saw. And so of that group, you know, if we're talking about such a small subset.
- [39:25]
A
Right.
- [39:26]
B
Of those groups, that's who's going to be most likely to experience thoughts of harm or potential violence. And you're right. In the early 2000s, 90s and 2000s, there was this. I mean, obviously we heard a lot of, like, Columbine era. Oh, it's the video games. But there were also a lot of studies in that era that tried to show a correlation and a link between video games and, like, aggression. And in particular, there was one study that was done that they put kids in an mri, basically, and, like, scanned their brains when they were playing video games. And they found that it made their aggression sectors light up. And they took that study and they published that fact and they published it in educator textbooks that were published in 2015 when I was doing my research. But what they did not include until they were. Until this came up in the California Supreme Court was that those same kids in the same tests, the aggression sector, led up in the exact same way when they listened to music and they watched a cartoon when they saw a picture of a gun. So really it was just showing that they were somehow engaged or interested or their brain was reacting to this thing. And probably there was maybe bias in the researchers and they really wanted to find a certain link. And they kind of cherry picked this and tweaked it a little bit. And, wow, has that taken over a lot of the discourse. And I think that's a huge reason why often in educational spaces, educators often parrot that same idea of, oh, these are bad, they're not a good leisure. Because the books we read to become educators are often parroting these same not completely accurate facts.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah. In fact, this one study that I looked at even listed the games that they were considering as part of this study. And it was games that my kids had played like Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto and Diablo. These are not tame games like Mario Kart. And they were saying that there was no correlation between the game being a shooter game and a child having sort of unregulated emotions. And one of the findings that they were talking about is that kids actually use games to discharge some of that built up anxiety or anger or frustration, and it. It becomes a release point for them. Do you know about that?
- [42:08]
B
So I can only talk anecdotally about that research about that, but it's so funny because as soon as you brought that up, I thought about one of my very best friends in high school. He really liked to play this kind of like a world builder where you are sort of the omnipotent, like, and you're kind of making people do whatever you want. And when he was really having a bad day, he would go in there and just like rain fire and brimstone on everyone. And that was how he got out his aggression. I am not that kind of person. Like, I am the person that will, like, feel bad for all those little characters. But, you know, and I know some people might look at that and go like, oh, but then he's like doing. He's like carrying out violence. It's like, well, he's. What he's actually doing is getting out feelings of aggression. Would you rather he punch a hole in the wall? Would you rather he scream and yell? Like, he's finding a way to channel this into something that lets him, like, process these emotions and almost role play these emotions in a way he knows is gonna keep him and others safe. And like I brought up earlier, like, that actually sounds like very good regulation. Yeah. And just like, we, you know, we're feeling super frustrated at work or Frustrated, something else. We might have adapted, have adopted some healthier coping mechanisms. Like, I might get done with a really hard and stressful day and think, I just want to go on a run. Yes. And that's because I have gone through the process of realizing, like, well, I don't feel better if I just come home and feel angry, and I don't feel better if I come home and scream, and I don't feel better if I come home and lash out at my partner. But I feel better when I have time alone or when I'm active or I can reset my head. And if I did that and went out and ran and somebody said, oh, well, you're just trying to escape, what's making you angry? Like, well, no, I'm processing what's making me angry in a way that I know will be safe or healthy for me.
- [44:07]
A
That's true. And how many times when you've gone on a run, when you're angry, you've just role played the whole script in your brain of how you're going to eviscerate that other person or all the
- [44:16]
B
things you wish you'd said in that meeting.
- [44:19]
A
I mean, that's that. Golly, the year I was like, oh,
- [44:22]
B
if I just said this.
- [44:22]
A
Exactly. Yeah.
- [44:24]
B
You sit there and you, you actually
- [44:26]
A
are doing it in your mental space in a fantasy way. You're not externalizing it, but maybe you do it in a journal. Maybe you do it because you write fiction. I mean, people have ways that they do give themselves a moment of vindication when they have felt victimized or they've felt belittled or they felt antagonized. So, yeah, I just found that all very interesting. Well, I'm dying to know then, what was your favorite game from childhood and what is your favorite game to play now?
- [44:57]
B
So it's interesting because often with my students, when they find out that I like games, they're always like, do you like this? Or this? Or this? And I brought this up in one of the first Instagram videos that I did. And that it's very important to know, like, how you like to interact with things and not necessarily what you like to interact with. For example, if I say I like video games and someone might be like, oh, you must like Minecraft. I. I've never played Minecraft and I have no desire to because it's not how I like to engage.
- [45:26]
A
Right.
- [45:27]
B
So I am someone where, like, my how is very, like, I want to be told what to do. I want the game, I want everything to tell me what to do. I like hiking on established trails. I like baking, which is like very scientific. Follow this recipe and then you'll get this lovely thing.
- [45:47]
A
Right.
- [45:47]
B
I used to do martial arts and I really liked forms where it's like do this, then move this. Okay. But I wouldn't want to spar anyone, right? Because I don't want to have to make it up. I don't want to improvise. I want nothing to do with that. I don't want to cook, I don't based on ingredients. I don't want to be in the backcountry off of a map. And I don't want to be in like Minecraft or Terraria where I have to control it to do. Please know. And because it makes me like I brought up competence earlier and autonomy that makes me feel completely out of control.
- [46:21]
A
Interesting.
- [46:22]
B
No idea what the rules are. I don't know what you want from me. I have too much choice and I don't know what to do. So now I'm like panicking. For me, what makes me feel in control is when I know I have a set of steps I can defer to if I need to, to to get me to a place I want to be. So I like games like platformers, which, I mean a real old school way like side scrollers, like Mario, where you're
- [46:47]
A
going from one platform or Donkey Kong or.
- [46:49]
B
Right, exactly. I like platformers, I like adventure games. There's a whole subset of games called visual novels which I sometimes like, which is basically an animated comic book and I really love. There's a whole lovely just world of indie games and indie developers who just make really incredible, wonderful storytelling games. So that's where a lot of my energy goes as a kid. I got a N64 when I was in like middle high school. And that definitely is, you know, my memories of figuring those things out and discovering worlds. That's such a powerful thing, I think to feel when you're a kid who likes games and as an adult now, the game that made me feel that way a lot was the newest Zelda game, which is called Breath of the Wild, which is not new at all. It's like four years old. But that game is just really lovely. You have objectives, you get to explore. It made me feel like a kid in that way.
- [47:52]
A
Oh, that's really beautiful. I ran across a game called Never Alone. Have you ever heard of that?
- [47:58]
B
I have not.
- [47:58]
A
So when you said the visual novels, this is a game that was created so that kids could experience native storytellers from Alaska and building an entire world around the Inupiat people. I think that's how you say it. Anyway, I have not played it, but I was reading about it and I started looking at the visuals and they were stunning, stunningly beautiful. And the article I was reading was talking about the power of video games to actually enhance the imagination and give children an immersive experience, which I think is also really valuable in education. It's better or maybe augments just reading about it in a book.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I just looked that up and it looks stunning.
- [48:48]
A
Yeah.
- [48:50]
B
And often, you know, it can be such a powerful way too for us to be able to engage with stories or experiences that are not our own. And especially in the world of games similar to the world like books, you know, we often like to hear like own stories, right? Like hearing from the lives of marginalized people as opposed to books being written about.
- [49:14]
A
About them. Exactly.
- [49:16]
B
And that can be such a powerful thing in games in that often, especially in the indie game world, you know, we often see a lot of own voice games, LGBT games, black and brown creators, game like developers with disabilities who are finding ways to express their experience or their lived experience through games. And then we are able to kind of come along and experience that too. So it can also be a really powerful empathy tool.
- [49:42]
A
That's exactly where I wanted you to go. That's exactly what I was thinking. I think that's why that one game really jumped out at me, because I've lived in many places around the world and there is something about the immersive experience that's different than even being a tourist or reading about it. And to see that you could do that for your kids through gaming just struck me as really valuable way to see gaming, to see it as a resource. And not always. I think that danger we can close with this, but I would love you to comment on sort of circles back to the beginning. I think if we treat gaming as leisure, we run the risk sometimes of minimizing its value. And so how would you like parents to see gaming if they were to reframe it for themselves?
- [50:31]
B
I really think you said it incredibly well. When we view games only as an escape, as if that is derisive, then we are ignoring the things that they allow our children to feel or express or learn that they wouldn't be able to otherwise. I have a 4 year old, so I see my child engage with toys a lot and so I know that often we talk about that really the job of young children is to play like that. Learning is through play. So if you think about when we see really young kids learning to play and we see them just figuring out what happens when I drop the ball, what happens when I tip this over, what happens when the clock tower is too high. It's all this experimentation. But through that comes so much learning. Simple cause and effect, but then eventually more and more skills. And that's really how I would love for people to see gaming, is that it's another way for kids and gamers of all ages to try out maybe new skills or skills in a new way and to get immediate feedback in a way that's not judging.
- [51:51]
A
Yeah.
- [51:52]
B
Not weighing in, that's not suggesting, that's not coming in and rescuing, but allows them to try things out in this completely kind of safe, rule based, boundaried space so that they can figure this stuff out on their own. And sometimes it's not going to be life skills.
- [52:14]
A
Right.
- [52:14]
B
Sometimes it is going to be simple cause and effect. How do I move this character? But if we can see past that and see past the glitz or the visuals and see into how the resiliency or their ability to work through a problem instead of trying to go around a problem or to take something head on or to take a break, regroup, come back and really see it as a way to practice these life skills that we would like for them to have.
- [52:48]
A
Oh that's, that's perfect. Ash, where can we find you online so that my community can follow you?
- [52:56]
B
So I'm on Instagram at Ash Brandon. My last name is B R A N D I N. I thought when I got married I would get to stop spelling my last name, but that's not true. And my website is ashbrandon.com I'm also at Twitter at Ash Brandon, though admittedly I don't really use it. And my website has a lot of the. Has videos of the talks that I've given in the past that talk about these topics in a much more in depth way. And I also have some games that I have used in classrooms and how I've used them.
- [53:32]
A
Nice.
- [53:32]
B
Even though I think we should make schools feel like games, I also think there are times it's valuable to actually use them. Yes. So I have some up there and I have some general lesson plan ideas but I also have more that I just don't put out there and I'm happy to provide it. If anyone goes there and want it, just contact me. So happy to share.
- [53:52]
A
Gosh, thank you so much. I feel like this is going to give so much food for thought to our audience. And I will make sure that everything Ash just shared is in the show notes so you don't have to remember or stop driving your car to write it down. And we look forward to hearing more from you in your stories. Ash, thank you for joining us.
- [54:11]
B
Thank you so much.
- [54:14]
A
Okay, let's do a collective exhale. Ready? Inhale first. Now exhale real big and loud. Do you feel a lot better? I just feel like Ash has such a grasp of how gaming is powerful in children's lives and how it can be used for for good and not feared for its ill effects. If you'd like to see Ash deliver more amazing content, I highly recommend following them on Instagram. You can go to ash. Ash.brandon b r a n d I n ash dot brandon ash loves to do Instagram stories and content on the grid that will help you develop a much more robust, well rounded appreciation for the role of technology and gaming in your kids lives. Today's episode of the podcast was produced by Crate Media. I'm Julie Bogart, your host. Thanks for listening. Keep going. I'm rooting for you, Sam.