Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over

Summary

Call Her Daddy Episode Summary: "Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle: Intimacy, Cheating & Starting Over"

Release Date: May 7, 2025

In this compelling episode of Call Her Daddy, host Alex Cooper sits down with two remarkable guests, Abby Wambach, a legendary professional soccer player, and Glennon Doyle, acclaimed author and activist. Together, they delve deep into themes of intimacy, trust, overcoming personal struggles, and rebuilding relationships after betrayal. The conversation is rich with personal anecdotes, insightful reflections, and heartfelt exchanges, providing listeners with a profound understanding of navigating complex emotional landscapes.

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1. Personal Backgrounds and Early Struggles ([02:02] - [04:39], [08:13] - [34:20])

Abby Wambach shares her experience growing up as the youngest of seven in a sports-centric family. Her competitive nature was fueled by constantly being challenged by her older siblings, leading her to develop an "insatiable desire to win" ([10:31]).

Abby Wambach ([10:31]): "I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games... there was this desire, this insatiable desire to win, to prove myself, that I was like one of them."

She candidly discusses the emotional toll of seeking attention within such a large family and how it influenced her later life, including her approach to professional sports and personal relationships.

Glennon Doyle opens up about her battle with anorexia and eating disorders from a young age, linking her struggles to her upbringing in a family marked by anxiety and anger.

Glennon Doyle ([08:26]): "I was diagnosed with anorexia, which I've been dealing with eating disorders since I was 10... there was a lot of anxiety and anger in my home that manifested in very controlling angry energy."

Both guests emphasize the importance of recognizing and addressing these early struggles as foundational steps toward personal growth and healthier relationships.

2. Sobriety and Recovery ([34:20] - [59:54], [62:13] - [83:18])

The conversation shifts to sobriety, with both Abby and Glennon sharing their journeys toward recovery.

Glennon Doyle discusses her realization that her relationship with alcohol was detrimental, comparing it to the superficial uses seen in her peers.

Glennon Doyle ([34:33]): "For every time I drank, which was all... every time I drank, my whole life fell apart."

Her decision to seek sobriety was pivotal, leading her to build a supportive environment alongside Abby.

Abby Wambach recounts her own turning point—a DUI arrest that surfaced on ESPN—prompting her to commit to sobriety.

Abby Wambach ([35:25]): "I have not had a drink since that night I got arrested. It's one of the things I've been sober for almost nine years now... my life just got exponentially better being sober."

Both highlight how sobriety has not only improved their personal lives but also strengthened their relationships, fostering deeper trust and mutual support.

3. Meeting and Building Their Relationship ([43:38] - [59:54])

Abby Wambach narrates the serendipitous meeting with Glennon Doyle at a librarian's convention, where an immediate, inexplicable connection sparked their relationship.

Abby Wambach ([44:14]): "I walked into the room, saw Glennon standing there... something just took over my body."

Glennon Doyle describes her own feelings of "sexual aliveness" upon meeting Abby, contrasting it with her prior experiences.

Glennon Doyle ([47:57]): "It was my first moment of sexual aliveness... just a moment where my body was like, there she is."

Their instant bond led to a swift and honest connection, culminating in a marriage founded on transparency and shared vulnerabilities.

4. Navigating Trust and Intimacy ([62:13] - [83:18])

The core of the episode revolves around trust, intimacy, and handling infidelity within their marriage.

Glennon Doyle openly discusses her history of being cheated on and how it influenced her approach to their relationship.

Glennon Doyle ([62:13]): "I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on. Every single one of them."

When Abby discovers Glennon's infidelity, rather than reacting with anger, she approaches the situation with grace and understanding, emphasizing the importance of not using each other's weaknesses against one another.

Abby Wambach ([64:38]): "We don't want to use each other's weaknesses against each other. That's something that is a tender spot."

This mature handling of betrayal reinforces their commitment to building a resilient and loving partnership. They implement practices like sharing passwords and maintaining transparency, which strengthens their bond and fosters a sense of security.

Intimacy is explored beyond the physical aspect, focusing on emotional and mental connections. Both guests emphasize the significance of communication and self-awareness in cultivating a deep, lasting intimacy.

Glennon Doyle ([69:34]): "When you're with that person, you're in lockdown, lockstep. And there's nothing more beautiful than having a partner like that."

They discuss transitioning from the euphoric stages of falling in love to a more grounded, intimate partnership, highlighting that true intimacy involves continuous personal and mutual growth.

5. Building an Authentic and Supportive Relationship ([75:04] - [83:18])

Abby and Glennon share insights into maintaining an authentic relationship by being true to themselves and supporting each other's growth.

Glennon Doyle ([75:54]): "You know it's right because of how you feel. It's not even when sometimes you know that that moment..."

Their partnership is depicted as a safe haven where both can explore their vulnerabilities without fear of judgment, fostering an environment of mutual respect and unconditional support.

6. Fun and Light-Hearted Moments ([83:29] - [83:18])

The episode concludes on a lighter note as Abby and Glennon engage in a playful "Who’s More Likely To" game, showcasing their chemistry and the joy they find in each other's company. These moments underscore the balance of depth and levity in their relationship, demonstrating that a strong partnership thrives on both serious discussions and shared laughter.

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Notable Quotes

• Abby Wambach ([10:31]): "I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games... there was this desire, this insatiable desire to win, to prove myself, that I was like one of them."

• Glennon Doyle ([34:33]): "For every time I drank, which was all... every time I drank, my whole life fell apart."

• Abby Wambach ([35:25]): "I have not had a drink since that night I got arrested. It's one of the things I've been sober for almost nine years now... my life just got exponentially better being sober."

• Glennon Doyle ([62:13]): "I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on. Every single one of them."

• Abby Wambach ([64:38]): "We don't want to use each other's weaknesses against each other. That's something that is a tender spot."

• Glennon Doyle ([69:34]): "When you're with that person, you're in lockdown, lockstep. And there's nothing more beautiful than having a partner like that."

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Conclusion

This episode of Call Her Daddy offers an intimate glimpse into the lives of Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle, exploring how their personal battles and triumphs have shaped their relationship. Their honest dialogue about intimacy, trust, and overcoming adversity provides valuable lessons for listeners navigating their own relationships. Through vulnerability and unwavering support, Abby and Glennon exemplify how love can thrive amidst challenges, making this episode both inspiring and enlightening.

Transcript

[Alex Cooper]

Hi, Daddy gang, it is your father. I am so excited that CallerDaddy has officially joined the SiriusXM family. I cannot wait to talk to new guests and continue to share my crazy personal stories and experiences with you every single week. If you want to hear new episodes ad free, subscribe to Sirius XM podcasts on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Haagen Dazs is made to be savored and enjoyed. Slowly introducing new Haagen Dazs Belgian Waffle Cones, a completely new experience that's worth slowing down for. Available in four delicious flavors, including my favorite, toasted almond fudge. It's a crispy Belgian waffle cone full of luxurious vanilla ice cream, topped with toasted almonds and milk chocolate curls and finished with fudge sauce at the bottom. Daddy gang, I love, love, love a good vanilla chocolate almond. So get yourself some ice cream. New Haagen Dazs Belgian Waffle Cones, available at retailers nationwide. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Great deals, great prices. Everyone's got a reason to rack. And now amazing deals for every day of summer are at Nordstrom Rack stores, and they're up to 60% off. Yes, you heard that right, Daddy Gang. Did you know Nordstrom Rack has Adidas and Nike and Vince, seriously, they have so good brands. I feel like I always go with my mom and I'm like, oh, my God, look at all the good stuff. You can always find something amazing. But don't wait. The best deals go fast. Save big on Marc Jacobs made well, Steve Madden and more. Plus, buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rock. What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

[Glennon Doyle]

Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle. Welcome to Call Her Daddy.

[Abby Wambach]

We made it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Wait, I'm, like, thinking about your daughter right now. And we're like, yeah, they made it. Yeah, they made it. Okay, so she's a fan.

She is freaking out today. This is the best day. She thinks we're finally cool. She said, moms, you know that that's where cool people go. She said, just tell them that you'll be their aunties. That's what she said.

I love it. Well, I'm happy you're here. I was gonna say, like to anyone watching. We've virtually met because you guys obviously came on my Paris Olympics show virtually. So this is the first time we're meeting in person, and I'm honored to have you guys Here. How are you doing today?

How are you?

[Abby Wambach]

I'm great. I'm having a good day. I didn't have to work other work, because this is the work. And so that this is the best kind of work where you don't have to sit in a computer and make calls and get on meetings. So I'm so happy to be here, you know, being not just a fan of you, but, like, watching you kind of blossom and grow and you began from the soccer world. It's just. I don't know, you're doing incredible stuff, and I just want to acknowledge that Unwell, the sponsor of the nwsl, we're owners of the. Of the Angel City team. So just good job. You're doing great.

[Glennon Doyle]

I really appreciate that. I think, like, it was almost like a part of my life that I never really got to bring forward when I got into media, because it didn't make sense. Like, the call her daddy girl when I was talking about sex and relationships. Like, also played soccer and was, like, a competitive athlete. I'm like, those aren't making sense. But I knew at one point I would be able to bring that part of my life forward, because the honest truth is I did that way longer than I did call her daddy, like, since I was so young. Playing soccer, you know how it goes. And so it's a part of your identity that feels weird. I'm will to get to, but, like, when you retire and when you're away from it, you're like, who am I without this thing?

[Alex Cooper]

Thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

So it's been incredible to get back into it. And I feel like I literally called my mom. I was like, I feel like a part of me is back. Like, I feel like I'm alive again. And it's just. It's amazing. And to be sitting with you. I mean, Abby, like, no, your kids think I'm cool growing up. Are you kidding me? Sorry for my language. I just wanted to be you. And you are so talented in all the things, and so, yes, bow down to you soccer God.

[Abby Wambach]

That's sweet. Thank you.

[Alex Cooper]

Call her Daddy is brought to you by airbnb okay, so I have a trip booked currently, and we got an Airbnb in the desert. I'm so excited. It is this gorgeous, lavish house that I really wanted to be with my friends. My childhood friends are coming into town, and I didn't want to do a hotel because I was like, I want to be super close with my girls. I want everyone sleeping in the same space, but also having our own room. So we have privacy and we're all together. And that is where Airbnb is just the best. And Airbnb is the best way to make your trip one to remember. Because you get to explore not only a new city, but a new space in that city. Staying like a local helps you feel immersed wherever you are, as opposed to feeling like a tourist. Grab groceries at the local market. Explore the neighborhood bars and restaurants. If you just want to go somewhere but you don't know really where yet, let Airbnb make the decision for you. Guest favorites might inspire you and perhaps even create a new tradition. And if you have goals for the new year, but you're worried about how to maintain them when you're traveling, Airbnb makes it easy. With plenty of privacy and kitchen space, you can still make health and wellness a priority while you're away from your home. Daddy Gang, we know traveling can be sometimes, like, overwhelming. You're like, oh my gosh, there's going to be so much going. Let Airbnb make you feel cozy wherever you go as you book your 2025 travel. My number one tip is to check out Airbnb first to find the perfect place to stay. Because your accommodation can really make or break the trip. Whatever your travel priorities are, they can be taken care of with an Airbnb. You want a big kitchen, you want a gym, maybe you want to bring your dog. Shout out Henry and Bruce. Airbnb is my favorite way to travel, hands down. There are so many reasons I love Airbnb. Stay tuned to hear more about my upcoming trips this year. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by T Mobile. You know, listen, I've tried in my growing up to not really get too, too involved in the drama. But you know, we all love a good juicy rumor. And let me tell you, Daddy gang, it is time to spill the tea on a rumor I have heard going around. And by tea, I mean T Mobile.

[Glennon Doyle]

Boom.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Glennon Doyle]

You guys. Your book. First of all, congratulations. I know obviously you've written numerous books, but, like, we can do hard things doing it together. Congratulations. What inspired you guys to do this?

We had a doozy of a year. Within the year, Abby lost her brother Peter. I was diagnosed with anorexia, which I've been dealing with eating disorders since I was 10. So this was just the latest round. And my sister, who does the podcast with us, was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I think we just. We depend on each other so much, the three of us. And you know how when you have a small group, you usually one of you keeps your shit together when the other two are losing it, right? Like, you have somebody who has a clue, but we just all lost it at the same time. And to survive, we started sending each other, like little clips of things or little quotes, and then we started keeping them in files and they just became like these really helpful anchoring places. And we sent it to a friend and she wrote back and said, can you make this sort of file for every category of life for me? And we were like, huh? Because it feels like sometimes the harder life gets, the more you forget everything, you know? Like, it's a really bad system. Like, you should remember then. But there's a little bit of dissociation that comes with trauma. Trauma. And I think that's what we figured out.

One, I'm so sorry. Two. Beautiful. Because I feel like the hardest moments in life is really when you have to look inward. And like you said, you lose your way. You're like, what am I doing? And what is happening? But there's a recalibration that happens because you have to go so deep inner strength. And then you know, who's the closest person to you? You're like, oh, wow, I really know I'm in love. Or I really know this person. My sister, my family, whoever it be, that's there for you. If they really stand up, you're like, that is such an incredible support system that I've built for myself. And some people then come to realize, like, well, fudge, I don't need this person in my life. They weren't there for me in a moment where I really needed them. So much of the wisdom you poured into this, I think is so applicable to my audience. So I kind of want to just, like, go through it all.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Let's go back to the beginning, though, because I want to get to know you guys better. And through that, we're going to obviously get the wisdom. Abby, growing up, you were the youngest of seven kids. Can you describe your personality as a kid when you were younger?

[Abby Wambach]

Great question. So being the youngest of a big family, for me, I had seven, six older brothers and sisters who all were very sports centric. My two oldest sisters played all the sports. My brothers played all the sports. And so I grew up, like, watching, like, observing them. I was a pretty athletic kid. I was, like, jumping off the diving board at, like, 2, and I scored 27 goals in my first three soccer games. And it's because I was competing against, like, older people my whole life, you know, Like, I was playing against my brothers, playing against my. My sisters, and they never, like, just let me win. They were just, like, always, like, blocking the ball from me and like, being their age, not just, like, bowing down to the little kid. And I think that part of, like, what made me so good is this desire, this, like, insatiable desire to win, to prove myself, that I was, like, one of them. And with that also came a lot of probably not healthy behaviors. But I do think that there was a part of me that as a kid, I was just, like, pretty risk taking. I was fearless. Like, they would call it Abby alert. I would just, like, run away. I would, like, hide. I didn't, like, have a ton of fear. That. That troubled me so. And then I had athleticism. My brothers and sisters even now tell me, like, you were ripped. Like, you had triceps and quads and stuff at 2. And I'm like, is that possible? They're like, yes. So I guess I was just like this rambunctious. This rambunctious kid who. And now, after much therapy and looking back, was just really vying for the attention of my mom. Really, like seven people were vying for that attention. Not possible. I mean, I'm glad they had seven kids because I wouldn't be here otherwise. But it was hard. It was Hard emotionally for, I think, a more sensitive kid than I think I was allowed to be. Would you say that? That I know you don't. You didn't know me then, but you know enough.

[Glennon Doyle]

I dissociated after you said I did not have a lot of fear that troubled me. I cannot understand that sensation.

Glennon's like, honey, what the hell?

What? That must be like. I only have fear that troubles me.

Glennon, we're getting to you. Hold on.

Go back, go back. I'm sorry. Carry on. I think that's beautiful.

[Abby Wambach]

That's so funny.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. I hate you. What? Give me some of that. No, that's so. Because, like, I was thinking, even when you're saying that, two things. One, I think whenever we just have these, like, I have these memories of you on the field and these, like, just iconic, historic moments of you pushing through where so many people must just have been, like, how the. Is she still standing and alive on this field and still going and still. Still bringing it? And then getting that backstory of you being like, oh, I've literally been doing this since I opened my eyes and could walk and breathe, and I'm the youngest, and I think about. I only have two above me. I'm, like, thinking about you being the youngest. That's what I was gonna ask you is, like, how much of what you were doing was you just trying to get attention from your parents? Because a huge family and being the youngest, you're kind of just, like, getting tagged along a lot of the times, and you're never getting the first backpack. You're getting the hand me downs, and you're not. You know what I mean? So there's a lot of. You're just kind of having to go with the flow. Do you think that that has impacted your personality as an adult?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes, and it's. It's actually, I. I've called myself a recovering professional athlete for the last 10 years. Granted, I'm also sober, so as a re. I'm a recovering alcoholic as well. But having the experience that I had in my childhood, it gave me, I think, an edge in a way, being a professional athlete. But I think it was. It was like, a maladaptive way of living as a normal person. And the way that I've been thinking about it recently is I thought being extraordinary was the way. Was the path to getting the quote, unquote, mother's love and attention that I think I was seeking. And with that approach, I was able to win gold medals, and I was able to win world championships for our country. But I got to the top of that mountain, and there was no there there. There was no more. Like, I could get no more attention for what I was doing. Literal. And maybe you have experience with this, that, oh, I was seeking this extraordinary life, this extraordinary effort, gold Olympics. And honestly, like, I gave myself the anthem to value it, however long it takes for the national anthem to play. And the gold medal was just put around my neck, and I would step off the podium, and my first thought was, like, I want to do that again. Like, there's the repetitive nature of professional sport and the new season and the next thing that wasn't conducive to true peace. And I think that when I met Glennon and I got three kids, the drive towards the ordinary has allowed me to actually experience extraordinary coming into my life, because it's being. The extraordinary is coming in. In a foundation that's built on true ordinary. That's incredible. Yeah. And I think. And I assume that you probably have a lot of. Of relatability to this, given where you're at in your life and in your career. It's just something to explore. Like, what am I actually driving toward? And when I get there. Assuming you've gotten there. Alex.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Will I. Like, am I asking myself the right questions to live a life that I really want? Like, what's the end game here? And that's something that Glennon was really good at helping me craft. Like, what is enough? What are we doing here? And in and of itself, like, this book that we've made asks ourselves. It's written in 20 different questions in 20 different chapters so that you can start asking yourselves these questions, like, what am I doing? Like, what is the whole point? Why are we here? All of it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Everything you just said, I relate to. Yes, you're right. You're, like, seeing right through me. I'm like, we just met, but I can. I feel it out. I. I so relate to so many things you're saying, and I agree with the athlete thing of, like, there's an identity crisis. But it. You're also made to feel as though if you are going for something so big and so valued and so many people are going to look at you in this high regard, and you just keep doing it, and you just keep winning, and it's so addictive. Like, it is. It's an addictive thing. Yes. That then when you are sitting at home and really what you learn is it's actually kind of more Beautiful when you have just people around you and it's longevity and love and care and kindness and all that in the house. But you're like, why is it quiet? Why is this boring? What's wrong? Like, I'm. I'm a loser now. I'm just sitting here and all my athletic ability and what? And then it's like, no, no, no, no. This is actually peace, and this is beautiful. And it's not normal to every waking day be like, I have to one up with myself. I have to one up myself. I have to keep doing it. That can drive you insane and can also drive you to be depressed, because then you're like, where? I need that high. Like, where is it? Where is it? Start to look for it elsewhere. Pausing on us, Glennon. Then I'm thinking about you. Like, how was your family dynamic growing up different than what Abby is describing? Hers was.

Oh. I mean, we were a small family. It was just my sister and I and my parents. How was it different? There was a lot less going on. We were like kind of a little island. I was raised by a football coach, though, so I do know more about sports than I let on. Yeah. But my sister and I were just. I mean, sometimes when I go to Abby's house, it's actually quite hard for me because I don't. It's. I'll say to Abby, I talk to everyone, but I didn't get to know anyone better at all. And I don't understand. We're just, like, saying things to each other, but we're not, like, learning about each other.

[Abby Wambach]

It's so chaos.

[Glennon Doyle]

So I just feel like I go in, and then it's a swirling, and then I leave.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Welcome to a big family. You're like, what am I doing? Your head is spinning, and you're like, this is normal.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Abby's like, what are you talking about? We got so deep. We got to know that this one's dating this one. Like, what? Like, you all. You're like. But we didn't get into, like, the mental, like, emotional. We didn't sit on the couch and talk for an hour and get deep. Like, I get it. I get it. What insecurities? I know you kind of mentioned, obviously, this past year that you recognize that you were diagnosed with anorexia, but back when you were in high school, can you talk to me about the insecurities that you struggled with?

I don't know. I just remember feeling completely exposed and confused in high school. Like, I didn't know who to sit with or how to be. And I actually ended up, I became bulimic when I was 10. By the time I was a senior in high school, I ended up leaving school to actually go spend time in a residential treatment center. Now they have excellent eating disorder clinics, but back then it was like, you just are in sort of a mental hospital. And I really felt like the mental hospital was much saner than high school. I did. I felt like bare, you know, I felt like, oh, this is where we're allowed to tell the truth. And we do art and we talk about feelings and we're all, there's rules about how to be kind to each other. Actually very much like 12 step meetings. I love a 12 step meeting. I need a 12 step meeting. I need like a moment of truth where everyone's telling the truth about how hard and messy life is before I go out into the world and like adult and act like everything's fine.

I know you were so young, but do you remember the first time you remember feeling like, uncomfortable with your body?

Yes, I. Oh, I've. My whole life I've spent uncomfortable my body. I, I. When Abby and I first got married, I would get dressed to go out and I would say, do I look comfortable? And she would say, I think that's something people have to answer for themselves. But really, I think I have spent a lot of time dissociated, like, not in my own body. I live in my mind a lot. And this last eating disorder recovery has been a lot about living in my body, which sounds so weird, but has been an interesting process for me.

[Abby Wambach]

I know sometimes I'll walk into the bedroom and she'll be like, in bed and she'll be in like the most uncomfortable position that a body can be in. And I'm like, are you comfortable? She's like, I don't know.

[Glennon Doyle]

So she walks over and like arranges all the pillows.

[Abby Wambach]

She's like, oh, yeah, that feels much better.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And you're changing your clothes like 15 times just to feel more.

[Glennon Doyle]

I do that, Yeah.

I do that like 10 times a day. It's very interesting.

I don't know when you're able to look back at like dissociating and obviously the bulimia and everything. Like, do you have you recognized the through line of what was going on in your life at that young age?

Yeah. So I think the difference between this round of eating disorder recovery and all the low so many other ones I've been part of is that I think I kept my recovery in my head. Which means that I said, obviously, it's culture, it's misogyny. It's this world we live in. And I kept it very intellectual. And I think for the first time, I'm actually doing, like, family of origin work this time. And I think that there was just a lot of anxiety and anger in my home that manifested in very controlling angry energy that for a sensitive kid like me, I think my body, in my environment, wasn't a safe place to be. And so I just decided that my mind was a safer place to live. Wow. This is what happened. If you can send me this recording, I'm gonna get it right to my therapist, because I feel like we're nailing it, Alex.

We are. We're nailing it.

Yeah. I think that's what happened. And so my mind, not here, is my safe place. That's why I can't tell when I'm not comfortable or I. You know. So reminding myself that I am safe now. Like, I think half of being a grown up is just reminding your nervous system that you're in a different environment now and you are safe and you've created a life for yourself where there's safe people around you and you can just relax. And that's what I mean. Honestly, that's what my marriage to Abby has been. It's been the opposite of everything that I learned when I was little. It's just like, absolute peace and safety.

That's so beautiful, though, because so many people are not even fortunate to say that, to be. Like, a lot of times we repeat patterns.

Yeah.

And there are so many people like, oh, my God, I did marry my dad. Like, gotta redo this one now. Like, that's. This is not working. And you being able to recognize, like, there was this feeling in your home that was unsafe and made you not want to be in your body. And I think a lot of people, like, obviously with eating disorders, I have a lot of people in my life. Like, a lot of it stems from control, and that was the one thing you could control. And so now that you're able to explore this, I think it's beautiful. And having a partner that's sitting next to you, that's like, I'm going to be there every step of the way for you. So you feel. Feel safe. Because going through therapy and uncovering things from childhood is. I don't even have a word for it. It's like you're re watching for some people, like, a nightmare that you don't want to open up. And for you to have Someone that's just, like, there to guide you. And even as cute as is, you'd walk in being like, are you comfortable? Can I adjust the pillows?

[Alex Cooper]

It's.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, it's. It's. You need someone like that. You can't. No one can go through this alone. And that's what's so beautiful about this. Did you, though, Abby, when. You know, I'm talking about it with you, Glenn, and, like, I'm thinking about being an athlete, and there's such a fixation on our bodies as athletes and at every different stage, whether it's the early days to. Then obviously in. When you get, like, later on. Did you struggle when you were younger.

[Alex Cooper]

At all with your body?

[Abby Wambach]

I never had, Like, I ate too much. That was my problem, which I know is a form of an eating disorder. I have a healthy case of body dysmorphia, though, in that I'm sad that my body doesn't look like it used to all the time. So I do, you know, I have to be very careful on what I eat and work out and walk because I can no longer run because my ankles are all messed up. So I've never really. I haven't experienced what Glennon experiences on a daily basis. And I think it's important that, like, what you said around her having an environment where she feels safe to explore this stuff. And I think one of the things that a lot of us really run into almost all the time when we think about going back to our childhood is that now, if we go back to our childhood, this now I'm deeming my parents awful people. People that are unlovable, and it's just not true. Like, you can love your parents and appreciate for them trying their best. Because I do believe that there's a lot of. Of our parents out there, mine included, that they did their best, and it was just maybe not enough. And they are people, too. And they. They had parents that might not have had the education or understanding that we have now. And so don't let that fear of blaming or pointing towards a childhood prevent you from exploring that part of yourself.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's so real. Because I'm like, oh, I don't have kids yet, but I can imagine you guys feel this way. You're like, oh, I can't wait to find out how we fucked them up.

[Abby Wambach]

Exactly.

[Glennon Doyle]

They're gonna come. No one's life is perfect. Everyone feels. And again, it's. I love that you're saying that because there are some parents where it's like, whoa, this is like, objectively, you, these people. But then there's also parents where it's like, yeah, you did your best. And I still have things from my childhood that really affected me as a human being that I can say that out loud. And it doesn't mean that you are this horrible human being. I. Yeah, both things can be true. Did you, though, Abby, like, in your high school days, like, did you have any insecurities that you were dealing with that you felt like you weren't able to be open about with people?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I mean, I was a queer kid. I wore backward, backwards hats, flannels. I went to an all girls Catholic high school and played sports, so. But I was straight. I had a boyfriend in high school. Really, really scared. I grew up in, like, a smaller town in Rochester, New York, and, you know, yeah, I was really struggling because I had sat so many days of my life in the church pews. And my mom, she's a very big church person. I was born and raised Catholic, and I was just, like, soaking up all of this energy towards what I knew that I couldn't say out loud. And I spent a lot of my time in the closet, not only for my family, but for myself. And I think it's. It's almost laughable now because when I look back at my teenage high school self, I was like, the most butch lesbian you've ever known.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

I mean, if I could have, I.

[Glennon Doyle]

Could tell I have no gaydar.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, if I could have had this haircut, then I would have. But no, I had, like the long ponytail and, you know, only wore it in a ponytail, slicked back ponytail all the time. And then another thing ended up happening where we have. We have queer kids, and one of them came out to us, and it was like the most special thing that ever happened to me in my whole life. Because instantly what happened is I got scared and I had this panic, this fear inside of me, and it made. We talked ad nauseam about this Glennon. And I like, oh. It made me understand that my mom wasn't afraid of me. She was afraid for me. Because the world, especially in, like, the late 90s, was not what it is today. Queerness was not cool. Especially being a queer lesbian was not cool. It was like this underground, mysterious place that you had to, like, go find. And. And now I understand. Like, oh, as a parent, we want our kids to have a good life and not. Not feel afraid of things. And. And I think that. And now I've gotten over that fear because, like, our kids are just happy and they, they are proving that acceptance is truth and acceptance is the way.

[Glennon Doyle]

Forward I the Catholic Church. I agree. There's like, there is growing up when you're so young and you're watching something and you're hearing something. Like, I remember, like, hearing about sex as I'm sitting in those pews, being like, okay, so I' die. I do this before marriage. Got it. Like, whoa. And then like after I did it, I was like, am I going to die?

[Abby Wambach]

I'm alive.

[Glennon Doyle]

This is great. Yeah. God. Can we talk about. You guys both kind of talked about it earlier, but you both talked about, like, using alcohol to cope in ways. When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Glennon Doyle]

You both talked about, like, using alcohol to cope in ways. When did you realize, oh, I think I have a different relationship to alcohol than my peers and my friends around me.

I. I always had that thing in me that there. It was never enough, never am. I. I remember seeing people leave a beer, a half beer or a half glass of wine, and, like, what is wrong with them? Like, how is that. How is that humanly possible? And then I just. You know, they say about. It's not how much you drink, it's like, how you drink. Like, I just had a situation where every time I drank, which was all. Every night, my whole life fell apart. Like, I would. I remember just sitting in my dorm room, just waiting for someone to call, to return my keys, my wallet, my. Just every day, it was like. It was how I drank. Like, I noticed that my friends didn't. Their lives didn't fall apart. They didn't do crazy things. They didn't lose everything. It was a way of being around alcohol that I knew in the back of my mind, this isn't right.

Abby, what was the moment for you that you knew you needed to get sober?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I had many. Being a professional athlete, I had kind of a secret personal life that not many people knew about, and this was totally a part of it. And I think being an athlete, too, I just took on that Persona that I just. I went hard all the time in every aspect of my life except school. I was the athlete. I went to parties. That's what I did. I went to college, and then I became a soccer player and started playing on the national team. And so then I started to, like, create these time periods where I could do it. Like, my time's off, so I would never really drink in. In. In camp, but when I'd have the weekend off or a week off, I would. I would rage for five. Five of those seven days. And throughout a whole career of doing this, 15, 20 years, it starts to take its toll. And then I start getting more injured, getting older, starting to use prescription meds. Those get kind of out of control. I'm leaning towards my retirement from sport. And then I get a dui. And that was the most important thing that ever happened to me. I get a dui, my mug shot is on the ESPN ticker for like seven straight days. And it was like the thing that like woke me up and I was like, whoa, my life is way worse because of alcohol. And for a lot of my life, it was what I, I was telling myself it was way better. I having all this fun and doing all this fun things and hanging out with all these amazing people. And I have not had a drink since that night I got arrested. And it's one of the things. I've been sober for almost for nine years now. I just hit nine years and everything really powerfully good in my life has happened in my sobriety. And I won gold medals as a high functioning alcoholic. And a lot of professional athletes struggle with this stuff and they don't do it publicly. And I get that. And there's more support for, and mental health support for pro athletes now than there was when I was going through. But I was just, you know, I was just really kind of suffering, not knowing if I was doing life right like there, that, like, I didn't know. I thought that that was like, that was the only way. And I didn't literally know a single sober person until I met Glennon. Like, I didn't know a single person that was sober in my life until I met her. And now I think, wow, I'm so proud that our kids will never ever see me intoxicated. I'm so proud that I have built a life that feels not boring. My biggest concern was, like, it's going to be so boring. What the fuck am I going to do? And the truth is, when you have three children, there is a lot to do all the time, every day, I figured. And so, and then we're both full time working people and so there's a lot that I wouldn't be able to have. The life that I have now had it not been for me getting sober, I would wouldn't, I would have probably missed Glennon. This whole thing would never, you know, so it's like when I look back, it's like my life just got exponentially better being sober.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think that's also really helpful to hear when you say, like, you didn't know anyone that was sober. I think there's a lot of people that probably are having the same exact experience as you in terms of struggling with alcohol, but that, like, that fun factor. They genuinely believe life won't be fun. And am I going to be like the odd man out where people are going to look at me and I'm the only one that doesn't drink? And I feel like, yes, that is fair to think. But once you start living it, like your testament being like, wait, you guys, it's literally great. Like, I'm totally. And of course it's hard. It doesn't mean it's not hard when you're going through this. But the social element, I also think people are way more loving and. And giving in moments where we think we're gonna get judged. Also, depending on who you're hanging out with, there can be that are pressuring you. But for the most part, if you're around people that are good people, people just want the best for you. People are going to meet you where you're at if you're around the right people.

[Abby Wambach]

And I'll just say this, like, first of all, you spend so much less money. I couldn't believe how much a dinner was without alcohol. It was insane. I was like, this is great. Big bonus. And then I think too, like, just go home a little bit earlier. Like, once your friends start to get louder and they repeat their first story, that's your Irish goodbye moment. Like, buh, bye. Get out of there. They'll never remember. And they'll be like, where's so and so? Oh, whatever. And then repeat that story that they had just repeated to you that made you want to walk out.

[Glennon Doyle]

So real.

[Abby Wambach]

They won't care. They won't care.

[Glennon Doyle]

Do you feel like your. Any of your teammates were kind of catching on? Because I know that there's a big secrecy element, but it only can last for so long. Like, how do you think it impacted your relationships?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I definitely know that my teammates were worried about me. One of them got the phone call that I got arrested from a friend and. Or a text. Did you hear about Abby? And they thought that I died. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah. And they. That was their first thought, that Abby got in an accident or something happened. She's dead. And I wasn't far off. Like, I wasn't far off from that happening. It's actually super. I'm very. I feel very lucky that I'm still here. I think that they all. And this is the problem of being A veteran and being the person that I was is. I was kind of a senior captain. I think that there was this element of, abby's gonna be fine. She'll take care of it. And, yeah, like, it has. It definitely has changed a lot of my relationships and friendships from that time. I had to create a whole different life for myself. I had to. To save my life, I had to leave a lot of that behind. But it's really awesome that when I get to reconnect with some of my teammates who I'll be friends with for life, they get to see this different, more grounded present. Not always thinking about, what are we gonna. Like, how are we gonna. What are we gonna do? Like, let's go. Let's party. Like, I was, like, that person that they kind of knew, and they have to kind of get more acquainted with the new me, which is a little bit more quiet, a little bit more subdued. I still like to tell a good story. In fact, one of my former teammates, we got together. It was one of our 40th. One of our former teammates, 40th birthday, and we were at dinner, and she just looked at me, and she's like, I like this version of you. And it meant so much to me. Like, I kind of got emotional at the table because, like, that's a fear. Like, when you change your life so dramatically, you change your relationships because of it. If you change yourself so dramatically, your relationships shift. Of course they do. And you wonder, like, will they like me as this person? And so it was nice to get that affirmation from her. And at the end of the day, like, we've built a life as a family together that, you know, if you were to have children one day, like, your family and your kids become your. Your source of everything. And so, yes, your friends and their opinions of you, like, it matters on some level, but, like, also, like, the things that matter the most is, like, what am I. What does my wife think? Like, am I doing? Am I doing okay? I think I'm. Am I doing okay? I think I'm doing okay.

[Glennon Doyle]

You know, in speaking about your wife, can we talk about how the two of you met? Because when I was doing my research, I was like, wait, this is, like, a epic story, you guys. No, this is, like, it's hot and cute, and I am obsessed. Okay, so you Release a book, Ms. Glennon. You release a book, and this book is about your husband at the time, he had cheated. And you write about finding out he cheated, and you're. You're gonna stay. Yes, and you go to a book event. Tell me the story. What happens.

[Abby Wambach]

So, yeah, so I am. I. I've just gotten sober. I'm also releasing my. My first book, my memoir. And this is a. A librarians convention event. And essentially what happens, and people might not know this. I did not know this. Librarians come together in a convention every year, and then authors come up and kind of pitch their books to sell their books to all the libraries of the United States. And so that's what this event was. So I walk in, and I'm a little bit late, which never happens. And so I'm, like, a little bit flustered, and I walk into the back room of this convention where the rest of the librarians or the authors were eating dinner. And I walk into this room, and on the way to the event, I should say, I checked out who the other author authors were going to be so I could, like, know their names. And, you know, and I saw Glennon, and I knew nothing about Glennon. And I just read her, like, little blurb, and it was like, sober, you know, mother of three. The book was about the. The redemption of her marriage through infidelity, et cetera. And I was like, oh, perfect. Like, she's sober. Maybe she'll know how. How to do sobriety.

[Glennon Doyle]

No pressure.

[Abby Wambach]

I've never met a sober person, literally. And so I walk in this room, and all of a sudden, I look up and Glennon is standing. Everybody else is sitting. She is Stand. Got to her feet and stretched her arms like this. She's all the way across the room. And I'm like, okay, well, that's. That's Glennon, the one I want to meet. This is great. Like, she knows me. She thinks I'm cool, so we'll get to have a conversation. But I, like, she's around the table.

[Glennon Doyle]

And it was weird. It was weird. Everyone was like, why is she standing up? Like, it was really weird.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it was a bizarre.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, then I.

[Abby Wambach]

And then, yeah, I didn't know what.

[Glennon Doyle]

To do because now I'm stuck up here, and I.

[Abby Wambach]

So let me. Let me.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're standing here to hug her.

We're at a long table full of authors, and I stood up like this, like.

[Abby Wambach]

And then she's awkward, and she goes.

[Glennon Doyle]

I thought maybe if I bow, people will think I just bow when people walk in rooms. I lost control of my body.

Glennon, wait. Abi. She's basically standing up like. Like the fucking Lion King. And then she's bowing. What are you thinking? And what are you thinking? In this moment and what are you doing?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it was.

[Glennon Doyle]

What?

[Abby Wambach]

It was something.

[Glennon Doyle]

I think it was one of the weirdest moments of my life. But I think it was a moment where I was in my body. Like, I really do. I've thought of this a million different ways because it's so weird. And there was a lot of writers at the table who still talk about it and try to get me to explain what happened. I didn't know Abby, of course. I did not follow the soccer. I did not. But she walked in the room, and I was like, holy shit. Like, something just took over my body. And I called it at the moment love at first sight. But I. I don't think that's what it was. I think it was desire. And I think for somebody who lives in their head, I had never. I just had relationships with people who I thought made sense to have relationships with. Like, that seems like a good. Like, I just never felt it in my body. And so it was the. The best way I can explain it, it was that it was just a moment where my body was like, there she is. You better get your ass up. This is an important moment in your body.

Was it at all. Romantic way?

Like, I just never was, like, a very. Because I just felt like. I used to think of sex as something you do, like. Like how you have to get the oil change.

Just.

You just do it so the car doesn't break down and people don't start to say, why aren't you having sex with me? And, like, you just have to do it to, like, keep things running smoothly. I know. So I didn't, before that moment, even know what it felt like to be, like, sexually alive. So I think it was a moment, my first moment of sexual aliveness. Although I would not have at a librarian's convention.

[Abby Wambach]

I know.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'm like, damn, Glennon. You're like, I'm getting turned on at the convention. All these librarians.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, the fuck is she doing?

[Glennon Doyle]

I never kissed a girl. I'd never had a relationship with a woman or kissed. I'd never. You didn't know any sober people? I didn't know any gay people.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, right? Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Basically.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was a Christian.

I was a Sunday school teacher.

[Abby Wambach]

And it was so interesting because this moment happens, and I have to go over to hug her because she's standing. Makes it so awkward. I'm, like, bowing. Okay. So we. I hug, and then I have to go sit in my seat, which is, like, around the table, not next to her. And I'm just Like, there's something happening that I can't fully explain because I'm. I keep looking at her and I'm like, huh? Like, that's. Something is happening here. And then we get seated next to each other on the. Daisy. On the. On the platform. What is it called?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, the dais.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. And the woman who was working for me at the time, I. I have to sign some autographs after the event. She, unbeknownst to me, because the whole time when Glennon got up to speak, I was like, I can speak in front of a crowd of people, no problem. And I was, like, fumbling my words. I was, like, nervous. I was like, oh, my gosh, get me out of here. And Glennon gets up and she speaks, and she's like, so eloquent and perfect, and I was just, like, looking at her, like, the whole time. And so after the event, I'm like, meeting with some booksellers, and my assistant at the time went up to Glennon and said, I don't know why I'm saying this, and I don't know what is going on, but Abby needs you in her life.

[Glennon Doyle]

I was like, got it. I'm in. I am not hard to get.

Like, I have been sexually awoken. Put me in. First of all, did you feel at all like at this point she's married to a man? Are you, like, wondering at all? Like, it. Could this even be? Like, would she even be interested? Or are you not even thinking romantic yet?

[Abby Wambach]

I am curious.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay.

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

And as a. A lesbian woman who grew up in the 90s, 80s and 90s, where a lot of the people that I have been with in my life were previously straight and then went back to being straight. It's just the way it goes for some of us. I was. I was side eyeing her around, like, what's going on here? Something was happening. I felt it. And so then I went back into my hotel room that night and I read her book. And I got to the end of that fucking book, and I was like, you fucking stay together. That can't be. I was, like, heartbroken. I was like, oh. And I. By the way, I'm the slowest reader in the whole world. I read from like 10pm till 3am to try to figure out what was gonna happen with this. And I was, like, devastated. I was like, oh, my gosh. And then a few days later, she.

[Glennon Doyle]

Emails me, what does this email say? Give me the gist.

Okay. So I think so on. On the dais. Abby had told me that her. Her People wanted her to write her memoir as, like, a Captain America story. Like, shiny. No problems here. I'm Abby Wamba.

[Abby Wambach]

I hadn't finished it yet, and I was. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And then she said, but I feel like maybe I want to tell the.

[Abby Wambach]

Real truth about the DUI and the drinking and the prescription drugs. Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

And she was so upset. Like, she, she felt like her drinking was, like, this big, dark secret that no one could know. But she's from, like, shiny sports world, and I'm a writer and an artist. I'm like, I, so what? Everyone is an alcoholic. And I, you know, like, that's not. And I remember I said, you're leaving that world, and you're entering the real world. And in the real world, we like real people. So of course, you, you show people who you are.

[Abby Wambach]

And great advice, by the way.

[Glennon Doyle]

So the email that I sent, I think I was, like, pretending that I just would be your, like, spiritual guide. I was just like, you need some help? Like, hey, I'm the one you met from the library. Although I do remember that when we reread the first sentence of the email, it said, I don't know much about you. I do know a little bit about men's soccer because my husband is a fan, but I do feel like I'm over men in general. So that was not hiding. That was not subtle. God. Right?

[Abby Wambach]

Remember how much I, I just, like, scoured all of these emails looking for clues. For clues. What is she trying to say here?

[Glennon Doyle]

Wait, you saying you're over men as you're, like, married to this man? Abby's like, huh.

I know.

Interesting. So when, throughout this email process, do you think each of you recognize this is turning romantic?

[Abby Wambach]

Good question. Well, it's weird, because at the time she was going on her book, she was about to go on, like, this, the whole giant book tour. Oprah just picked it for a book club pick as, like, the marriage redemption story.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's how it was being sold all over the place.

[Abby Wambach]

And, and I guess we, we went from email to, like, started texting. And honestly, like, instantly when we started texting, then we had, like, a phone call. And I think this, like, honestly, and this is the God's honest truth, the second we felt like that, we communicated that there were real feelings happening. She said, I gotta talk to Craig. I can't do this.

[Glennon Doyle]

Well, first I went to a therapist, my therapist. I sat down with my therapist and told her the whole thing. I said, I think I'm in love with this woman. I, I, she had been with me through the marriage. I said, I cannot. I cannot have sex with my husband again. Like, I. Something about my body. Like we hadn't even been in the same room together besides that, but I just couldn't do it. And she said, I understand what you're saying about not being able to have sex with him anymore. Have you considered just giving blowjobs? Because many women find that to be less intimate. My therapist said that to me and Alex. That was the moment. I was like, as God is my witness, I will never give a blowjob again. I don't know much, but I freaking know that much. And so it was something about that woman looking at me and saying, squash this. It's not real. Just. Just give blowjobs the rest of your life. Where I was like, oh, no, thank you. No, no, no.

[Abby Wambach]

But then right after that, you were like, I have to talk to Craig.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

Okay. Yes. What did you say?

I just said. I mean, we had been through so much, and this man is an amazing father, and we married each other because it was the right thing to do, not because we were right for each other. And we both knew that. And in retrospect, when I think about how we got married, I really railroaded it. Like, I was scared. I was freshly sober. I was pregnant. And I thought, we gotta do this. Like, we need to become a family. And I ignored every terrified look in his eyes, like, I can. We weren't ready, but he did the best he could. And I. And there was infidelity, and it was messy, but I just remember thinking, I don't owe this man the rest of my life, but I do owe him the truth. Truth about now. So I just said, I am in love with a woman. And there was a lot of silence. And then a week later, we told the kids. And we had not even tested. We had not been together. Except for that one night. We blew it all out.

[Abby Wambach]

Just talking.

[Glennon Doyle]

Just like you had never even kissed. You had never. Okay, hold on.

[Abby Wambach]

She blew up her whole life.

[Glennon Doyle]

Did that freak you out a little?

[Abby Wambach]

No.

[Glennon Doyle]

No.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're like, let's go.

You were waiting for a girl, a straight girl, to blow up her whole life and choose you.

[Abby Wambach]

I was.

[Glennon Doyle]

And not go back.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. I was waiting for it. But, like, here's the thing. Everything about this story, a sane person would be like, this is. This is not correct. You should probably slow down. This is. You should do this a different way. And I totally get that. But there was everything in my. My total body and knowing. And I think it Was true for you, Glennon, too. That it was like, this is where I'm supposed to be. This is the person that I'm supposed to build a life with.

[Glennon Doyle]

How did your family react to you being like, I'm with a woman now.

So I remember texting my sister, who was my person, my. We are inseparable from a dressing room at the mall. And I just said, I am in love with Abby Wambaugh.

[Abby Wambach]

Walk.

[Glennon Doyle]

Dropping sentences. It's just like, hard to. There's no lead in that's going to make it better. So just.

[Abby Wambach]

And then she's like, yeah, we all are.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, we all are.

[Abby Wambach]

Like, join the club. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

[Glennon Doyle]

No, but like, if I got that text, I'd be like, oh, yeah, like, you're getting into soccer, right? Cool. Like, it's about time. Like, like, no, finally.

Yeah. And I said, I'm in love with Abby Wambach and I will never be able to be with her, and I am brokenhearted. And she wrote back, and it was like, you know when you're like, staring at the dots, like, what is coming? And she said, well, you have spent too much of your life brokenhearted. And it was just like her immediate way of saying, all right, let's go. No, we're not going to land on. Just brokenhearted. Like, let's. That's hard. Let's choose the other hard.

[Abby Wambach]

Mm.

[Glennon Doyle]

So she was just. There was a lot to work through, but she was just immediately like, let's do this.

Can you share with me once you guys got into this relationship? Everyone brings a little bit of baggage from their past, obviously. And you haven't gotten cheated on. How did that impact your guys relationship with. Okay, I. I hit the mother load. You're like, okay. How did it impact your guys relationship with trust?

[Alex Cooper]

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[Glennon Doyle]

And I'm gonna wear.

[Alex Cooper]

The performance jogger is also lightweight moisture wicking and features a four way performance stretch. I need to be comfortable. If you know your father, I need to be able to wear this to the airport, to lounge on the couch, to go to the office, to even go on a date night with mat. I have worn joggers. Okay? So boom. Vori is an investment in your happiness for our listeners. They are offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on The Planet at vori.com/dummy. That's V U O R I.com/dummy exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by lieb by Yves St. Laurent. Mother's Day is approaching, so let's talk about our fearless, bold moms, shall we? They deserve a fragrance they can wear every day that embodies their confidence and the freedom to be unapologetically themselves. When I think about my mom, I know she's never buying anything for herself and I know she's never going to be like, oh, I need a new something of this. No, no. That's why we, as their children, you guys, we need to step up. YSL Beauty knows fragrance. And their Lieb fragrance makes the perfect Mother's Day gift. Like the new Le Blonu with its fresh citrus floral scent. Okay? It is long lasting, alcohol free and it comes in a radiant jewel like white bottle. It will look stunning on your mom's bathroom countertop. And it looks like a great, great gift. Plus, the low new leaves your skin feeling radiant and glowing. And then there's the totally icon lib eau de parfum with its warm, sultry floral notes of vanilla, orange blossom, lavender and musk. Lieb Eau de parfum. It'll leave people asking your mom what she's wearing wherever she goes. I love a good perfume. I always want to smell good. And I want you guys to give your mom the gift that keeps on giving. Give her the liblo new. Give her the eau de parfum. Give her the gift, okay. Of smelling gorgeous. Shop lieb by Yves St. Laurent at Sephora. This Mother's Day, everyone brings a little.

[Glennon Doyle]

Bit of baggage from their past, obviously, and you haven't gotten cheated on. How did it impact your guys relationship with trust?

So I have never been in a relationship that I wasn't cheated on. Okay? Every single one of them. All of them. And I never know. I never know until I know. So I went into this relationship having part of myself know that it was going to happen. And I don't think I would have been able to explain this at the time, but I think I felt like, okay, well, I can't control whether it's gonna happen, but I can control whether I'm just totally annihilated by it. Like, I can control whether I'm surprised by it. I just won't be surprised by it because that's the part I can't handle. So a lot of things happened, but one day, Abby was in the shower and she got out too fast. Like, faster than her normal shower.

She got out too fast or too fast for you?

And she opened our door and I was on her phone, in bed, on her phone, looking through her phone. And it's so funny. I really like having the moral high ground. I don't know what to do in that exact sort of situation. I wanted to die. And we just both stared at each other for a second. And then she says, she says, oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you. Do you need my email passwords? Like, what? What else do you need to feel safe?

[Alex Cooper]

Wow.

[Abby Wambach]

I've also been cheated on. And so, like, it was this moment that I was like, huh, okay, this is not about me. I know what I'm doing. And. And I'm not doing anything weird. I'm like the most boring person in the whole wide world.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can confirm that based on my.

Super, like, what the hell? Shit's boring.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, come on. And I think, like, I don't know, I just think that it's really, in that moment, it's really. She's trying to soothe something, a fear that's happening. And I recognize that immediately. And of course you have that fear. I can't be mad at you for. For being scared.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah, I was really scared.

[Abby Wambach]

That's something that has happened in your life. And one of the vows that we have made, especially since we've gotten married, because we did actually make vows, is like, we don't want to use each other's weaknesses against each other. Like, that's a. That's something that is a tender spot. And it's a tender spot to me too. So, like, when these things kind of come up, we can't use it against Each other, because, like, I could have. And I know I've not been like this in my life. This is probably sobriety, really helping me be. Like, what the fuck? Like, when you're not sober, you're keeping secrets. Like, they might not be cheating secrets, but you're keeping secrets. Like, that's how you stay alcoholic. Like, it's the secrets that take you down. So in my sobriety, I was just like, yeah, like, what do you want? You want my email passwords?

[Glennon Doyle]

Luckily, I can never remember a password, so that wouldn't have helped me. And I didn't need all of that. It was just that moment of, like, such kindness and such. I think it got just better after that.

Did it?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Have you been looking at my phone?

[Glennon Doyle]

Not since Tuesday.

[Abby Wambach]

But now we have each other's passwords to everything. Like.

[Glennon Doyle]

Like.

[Abby Wambach]

Like I can open her computer with my fingerprint. Like, the whole thing.

[Glennon Doyle]

I also love what you guys talked about with the phone and the trust thing, because I have had so many people come on, and it hasn't been the reaction that you've given Abby, which I can imagine. There is a level of anger for sure. Someone has where it's like, you don't trust me. Why are you going through my stuff? But to be met with such grace and love. Love. That makes now sense why Glenn? Then you're like, oh, and then I never need to do it again. Because when they also blow up, it does give you even more pause as the person looking through being like, well, what are you freaking out about? And what is there to hide? Not that there's always something to hide, but that moment, I do think is a defining moment for a lot of relationships based off of here have everything. Not that you need to give them everything, but it's a nice gesture to be like, I have not. I go on my Candy Crush account. Like, there is literally nothing on my phone that I. I feel like I need to hide.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, you have to think about it because, like, there's. There's the defensiveness that shows up. Right. And what is underneath the defensiveness? It's like, okay, they don't trust me. That. Then that's like, the next level. And then you have to go deeper than that. It's like, why don't they trust me? And then it has literally probably nothing to do with you.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's right.

[Abby Wambach]

So it's like, if you can do that equation and process that really quickly. Look, I have. I have been the one that's like, what you don't trust me, and I'm defensive and I. And I'm like, standing in the trust part of it. It's like actually go one step deeper and honesty, like being honest with yourself. Because if you have. If you have untrustworthy behavior that would kind of propel somebody or, Or. Or make them want to look through your stuff in a way to like, figure out where you are, like, find my whatever. Like, of course that. That you will. Yeah. It's just important to do that process and to realize it's not necessarily a lot of stuff in relationship isn't about you.

[Glennon Doyle]

No. I was thinking I can't trust myself to make a good decision. That's what I thought. Right. That's all the research and whatever. Like, I cannot trust myself to know if something's going on. Yeah, I think I do trust that now. I think that is like, what. What getting back in your body is about too. It's like starting to pay attention and not gaslight yourself.

It's a great point because I think a lot of people listening and specifically women, like, we're always kind of taught to question ourselves. Like, we're not supposed to be confident and know what we want. It's like, question yourself and don't be so confident. And you talking about being in your body and how your life is changing by starting to be more, like, cognizant of, like, where you are and who you are in your relationships. Like, again, then having a beautiful relationship that you guys are building together, it makes it easier, but it still is going to show up. And then it's about how you guys handle those moments that then if anything, they get you even closer.

Yeah.

Like that moment. Like you just said, we've never had something like that. Except for last Tuesday.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm just kidding.

[Glennon Doyle]

You're like, Tuesday. But those moments make it so much easier to be light and free and in your body when you feel that safe, where you're like, oh, I don't even care about your email. Don't give me the password. I'm too busy. Can we talk about intimacy? Because I think a lot of people, when they think about relationships and kind of like how you described it, Glennon, sex for you. You were just like, oh, I thought it was something you did. Oils change.

[Abby Wambach]

Boom.

[Glennon Doyle]

By we're done. And I think a lot of people think about sex and intimacy is like, it. The. The way to equate how good our relationship is is how much we're having sex. Like, like if someone is craving more intimacy in their Relationship currently. Like, what advice do you have for them? Listening and watching.

I guess just even saying that is a good start.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. I think that something that works for us is to, like, know what makes each other feel like that. That intimacy, connection is there because we've been together for 10 years. Ish.

[Glennon Doyle]

Is that right?

[Abby Wambach]

Almost. Yeah. We're almost like we're in our ninth, ninth year. Oh, my God. And we've gone through ups and downs of. Of not just like the actual act of, like, sex, but, like, we've gone through ups and downs of feeling really connected and so in line and so on the same page. And then, you know, stuff happens. People die. Diagnosis has happened. And it's. It forces you kind of away from, like, this homeostasis line in a way. And it's not my dream to be living at the high, high, high of the in loveness, because I don't think that that, number one, chemically, it's just not sustainable. Like you. That happens for the first couple of years and you're just, like, infatuated with each other and you can't keep your hands off each other. But then you fall into a sense of loving, of complete partnership and intimacy and. And you're kind of like, here, like we. You know what I mean?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. I mean, that was so scary for me. You remember?

[Abby Wambach]

I was terrified because she had never been in love before, and I had been in love before. And so I know that when you fall off that love train, you're like, I want to go back there. And so you find somebody new. And then. So that's what I did my whole life. I just wanted the love. Love. The love chemicals. The love chemicals.

[Glennon Doyle]

Same as. It's like. Same as the success.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Striving for success. It's the same. It's the whole conversation. It's same as booze.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's the same as the falling in love part. They're all like these fake versions of the thing, but they're easier to access because they give you the adrenaline. And then there's like these real versions of the thing. Right. That are harder. It's like you're sitting around with your friends and you're like, is this boring? Or you're like with your wife on the couch, year seven, and you're like, is this boring because the drugs are gone? But I mean, I remember you saying. You telling me that it was gonna change, like when we were in the obsessive, just obliteration of early love. And you saying, this is gonna end. And I said, to you, I feel like you're saying we're not gonna love each other as much. And you said, I'm telling you we're gonna have to love each other more because the drug of it is gone. And then you land. It's like the falling in love, and then you land, and you're like two people again. And you're like, what? We're just two people, you know? So I think that's intimacy. The falling in love is not intimacy. Like, that can happen to any fool, right? The fool in love. That's just something that happens to you, but then you have to happen to each other, which I think that's intimacy. It's like. It's not a we thing. It's like, here I am. And you're like, here I am. And then the more intimate you can be with yourself. I think it's our therapy, it's our work we do individually that makes us able to connect deeply as two people.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it's like. It's like when. When you're falling in love, you're trying to enmesh. You're trying to become what you are. 1. Like, you believe that you are the one ones that. That have it.

[Glennon Doyle]

Remember we used to walk around and be like, look at all these normal.

[Abby Wambach]

People and that have it forever. Right? It's only you and this other person. It's me and Glennon, and nobody else knows what we're talking about.

[Glennon Doyle]

We were insufferable.

[Abby Wambach]

But then when you start landing in love, you become two individuals again that hopefully are along the exact same path. And, you know, like, things happen where the path goes a little bit further away from that center line. But you. Our goals in our life, at least mine, is to get as close to that center line as possible so that we're like, you're. You see this. This is crazy. This is amazing. Like, okay, cool, cool. And we're. We're headed in the right direction. And the work that we do, the therapy and the. Even our podcast is, like, a therapeutic thing because we have to, like, do a lot of research and thinking and feeling and talking about really hard things. And it's such an important, like, avenue for us to not only be intimate with each other, but to explore our own intimacy with ourself. And that. That. That deep desire for the two of us that we both have to want to know ourselves more. And then we get to have, like, beginner's mind with each other. We get to be new people every day, and it's so fun and also exhausting at times, but fun for the most part.

[Glennon Doyle]

I can tell you too. It's just, just you are talking so much like the. You're like, oh, wait, remember the other night that we were up late talk. Like I think that it. Every time you hear people give advice, like communicate. It's like, shut up. But it actually, when you start to really dissect what is communicating in a relationship, look like it is literally after the in love portion, you come down and it's reality. Are we compatible in what we want in life? And so many people, there's usually one person in the relationship that. That's kind of vying for the other person's attention. Be like, do you like this? And then the person's like, no, I don't know. And then like, okay. And then they kind of mold to that person because the person that cares least in the relationship has all the power.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Glennon Doyle]

And so you're con. It's like this uneven thing that when all of a sudden you find that person that feels like you're genuine, equal.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

And you are compatible. Doesn't mean you're not going to disagree on things. But it's just this like one step forward each time and you're in lockdown, lockstep. And there's nothing more beautiful than having a partner like that. But it's rare to find. I feel like you can both now like you've having been in previous relationships. Me too. It's so rare to find. And that's why I want for all the women listening, like if you're not sure, if you don't have that feeling, it's probably that's your answer. It's not there because like what you guys are describing. Yes. Maybe you're not going to meet someone that stands up and gravitates in the air towards you. But that feeling of like, no, that I want to do the hard work with this person, that I feel like if it's missing, if it's not there, you kind of know it's not the right person. Because it. When it's right, you know, it's so right.

And I think you know it's right because of how you feel. Like it's not even when sometimes you know that that moment of there she is looking at Abby, like for so long, I thought that was about Abby. Abby. But I think that there she is. Was internal. Like I loved who I was in that moment. Like she brought something out of me. But I was in my body. I was weird. I was arms open I'm, like, not making sense. I like who I am with Abby. I sometimes feel like the way that, you know, if a person's compatible with for you is how you feel about you. You when you're with that person, it's not necessarily that person. Because so much of love, the way we've been taught, especially for women, is like, we have to disappear or get small or mirror or become whatever that person wants us to be. So we don't even know who we are. So, like, there's a version of love that doesn't make you disappear, but makes you expand up here, up here in a way that that's what you get. You fall in love with is like this version of me that I get to be on the earth because this person allows me to be that space.

No one, like everyone watching this right now because I have so many people that write in every day, and they're like, is this the right person? If that's it, how do you feel when you're with this person? And if you don't feel like your best version of yourself, you probably have the answer. Okay, wait, I want to play a quick game.

[Abby Wambach]

Yay.

[Glennon Doyle]

Because now that you said that you're getting to, like, 10 years, we need to play a little. Who's more likely to.

Okay, okay.

Who is more likely to start a deep, personal, intimate, emotional conversation at 11pm at night?

We've never been awake at 11pm no.

Okay.

Late night.

[Abby Wambach]

7Pm So 8pm would be very, very realistic. 7pm That's a bonus of being sober. You go to sleep early.

[Glennon Doyle]

Who do you think? This is a tough one for us?

[Abby Wambach]

I think it would be me.

[Glennon Doyle]

You. I do too. Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Thank you, cuz. At 6pm she starts to power down.

[Glennon Doyle]

There, and you're like, honey, one thought I had, she's like, go to bed. Go to bed. Okay. Who's more likely to send a steamy text during a work meeting?

[Abby Wambach]

That's so good.

[Glennon Doyle]

I feel sad. I never send you steamy text.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it would be me for sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

It's you. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it tomorrow.

Do it tomorrow.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, my God. This is so fun. Thank you, Alex.

[Glennon Doyle]

So good. Okay. Who's more likely to get a spontaneous tattoo?

[Abby Wambach]

Her.

[Glennon Doyle]

Really?

Yeah. I love a tattoo.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Believe it or not, I don't have a single one.

[Glennon Doyle]

You don't?

[Abby Wambach]

No. And it's only because I was terrified as a child, and we were told that if you got a tattoo, you would be kicked out. That still lives in Me. And I think the day after, I would want something different so fast.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's what it's for.

It's for regret. Regret is fun. Regret is proof you did something wild at some point. Like, you were wild and crazy. It's.

Those are the spontaneous texts, honey. Okay, who's more likely to get. Get too competitive at board games? I knew that one. Who's more likely to suggest skinny dipping on vacation?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, for sure it would be me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Glennon Doyle]

Who's more likely to turn a small moment into a metaphor for life?

I mean, that's my jam. Alex talks. I only understand metaphors.

Oh, my God. Wait, can you think of one that you've been, like, saying recently?

Well, right now I'm thinking this really feels like a bubble of love. And I was going to talk to you about it in the car, but I'm glad we got to bring it up now. Now it does.

Wait, tell me. What do you think?

It just feels really good in here. Like, you are wonderful, and this conversation has been great, and. I don't know, it just feels really good.

Vibes.

Bubble of love.

[Abby Wambach]

Bubble of love.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love this bubble of love. Okay, Love. Who's more likely to get on stage at karaoke?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, we have a story around this. My wife is.

[Glennon Doyle]

Look at your face.

[Abby Wambach]

We do. We do. Girls just want a weekend. It's a weekend that Brandy Carlisle puts on a music festival weekend. And because we're friends with Brandi, she allows Glennon to go on stage and perform a song.

[Glennon Doyle]

I performed Cher. If I can turn back time Very seriously. Alex, I was not joking, okay? It was not a joke.

[Abby Wambach]

It was not a joke.

[Glennon Doyle]

I wore a full wig and hat and fishnets and a G string.

[Abby Wambach]

Our kids were like, are you sure, Mom?

[Glennon Doyle]

If I could turn yo.

[Abby Wambach]

And she doesn't sing. No, she's not a singer. Singer. And got in front of 5, 000 people and performed the song. Made me be a sailor.

[Glennon Doyle]

My body, Alex. In my body.

[Abby Wambach]

You were in your body?

[Glennon Doyle]

Yes.

You were in that G string?

Yes. We.

What were you thinking when she was on stage, Abby?

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I went out there as, like. I was like, sailor. Well, I was. She got me the sailor outfit because it's part of the music video that chair put out.

[Glennon Doyle]

But nobody knows that, so it just looked like Abby.

[Abby Wambach]

It was bizarre. But I was out there as, like, her comfort, support person because she's gotta go do this thing. And we go out there, and Brandi is also on stage singing back up to make sure that Glennon can get through the song. Well, instantly we realize Glennon doesn't need any backup. She's crushing it. And now I'm just, like, loitering. I'm like, what am I doing up here? This is. I look ridiculous. Glennon is, like, all over the stage and sliding on her knees, and the crowd is going wild. I was like. I was laughing with Brandi in the back part of the stage. And then all of a sudden, Glennon comes and jumps into my arms. And I grab her. My hands are on her ass. Total ass, fishnet ass. And she goes, take me off stage.

[Glennon Doyle]

I got scared. I got scared. Like, three minutes in, I went back in. My body was like, oh, this isn't a good idea. And so I just said, get me out of here.

[Abby Wambach]

Get me out of here. Here.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah. But it was the best.

I'm so proud of you. That takes confidence.

Yeah.

And I can only imagine Abby, as you're saying there, being like, that's my wife.

[Abby Wambach]

It was amazing. And she had a little bit of, like, a vulnerability hangover that night. And then we got to the airport the next morning because that was the day we were leaving, and all of the concert goers were coming up to her. Like, you were amazing. That was the most. It was amazing.

[Glennon Doyle]

That's the best. I'm not just saying it, that you got that. That feedback, because I get what you mean. When you're laying there, you're like, wait, was I, like, being kind of cringe? Like, did it. Was it okay? Like, did I sound okay? And then everyone's like, babe, you crushed Alex.

I was in the fetal position in the bed in the hotel, going, did I humiliate? Was that the best moment of my life or the worst?

It was fun.

It was amazing.

Okay, who's more likely to sleep past noon on a weekend?

[Abby Wambach]

I would sleep longer.

[Glennon Doyle]

Who's more likely to start a hobby and forget it two weeks later?

[Abby Wambach]

Me.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay, it's okay. It's okay.

But you first have to buy all the gear for it.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Oh, I'm a gear person.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, I'm the same way. Like, I will go and buy things and be like, I'm doing this. And then I'm like, oh. And then Matt loves to be like, remember when you said you were going to get into Pilates and I bought you a Pilates machine and you've used it two times? And I'm like, please, this is enough. He's like, remember when you tried tennis? And I was like, shut up. Okay, I'm going to get back to. At some Point. Who's more likely to suggest staying in instead of going out?

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, both of us.

[Glennon Doyle]

Okay. Love that. Same. Who's more likely to say, I have a new idea for a book slash podcast, slash project. Project.

That's all we say.

[Abby Wambach]

That's all we talk about.

[Glennon Doyle]

Yeah.

I've had 12 ideas just during this conversation.

[Abby Wambach]

We can't wait to go download.

[Glennon Doyle]

We're doing work. We're working today, ladies. We're putting in work. Okay, who's more likely to give the other unsolicited advice?

Oh, I recently learned that unsolicited advice is criticism and I should stop. So I go to Al Anon now I go to Alanon five times a week so I can stop giving advice.

Do you feel the difference? Difference?

[Abby Wambach]

Yes.

[Glennon Doyle]

Oh, that's good.

[Abby Wambach]

Yep, for sure.

[Glennon Doyle]

I'll report back to my meeting.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, no, it's great, you guys.

[Glennon Doyle]

I had the best time with you. I, like, don't want this to end. I think something that is, like, my favorite part of my job is when I get to sit down with people that I obviously, like, see on social media or I'm a fan of, fan of, and then getting to actually speak to you guys. Like, we are in my living room and we're just talking about things that we. We clearly talk about in real life. It was such a pleasure to get to hang out with you guys because seeing your relationship up close and personal, it's so beautiful and inspiring, and I hope so many people take from this, like, the work you both have done from childhood, all the things you guys have gone through to get to this point and then to make this beautiful marriage work. And it is work, but it's fun work and it's good work. Like, I just thank you guys for opening up to me today because I know we got got. We got a little deep in moments, but it was. It was really fun and it was a pleasure. So thank you.

Love bubble.

[Abby Wambach]

Love bubble. We love you.

[Alex Cooper]

Thank you.

[Glennon Doyle]

I love you guys. You guys are the best.

[Alex Cooper]

Hi, Daddy gang. It is your father. I am so excited that Caller Daddy has officially joined the Sirius XM family. I. I cannot wait to talk to new guests and continue to share my crazy personal stories and experiences with you every single week. If you want to hear new episodes ad free, subscribe to Sirus XM podcasts on Apple Podcasts. To start your free trial today, call her. Daddy is brought to you by Tinder. Spring and festival season is upon us, Daddy gang. It is time to get on Tinder and take a chance on matching with a new crush on Tinder, it has has quite literally never been easier to find a new person with the same music interests.

[Glennon Doyle]

Shoot.

[Alex Cooper]

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