Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (FBF)

Summary

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Call Her Daddy – Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (FBF)

Host: Alex Cooper
Guest: Bethany Joy Lenz
Date: February 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This emotionally raw and revelatory episode features actress and singer Bethany Joy Lenz—beloved for her role as Haley James Scott on One Tree Hill—sharing the harrowing story of the decade she unknowingly spent in a high-control cult. Lenz opens up to Alex Cooper about her childhood, her formative years in the entertainment industry, and the slow, insidious manipulation that led her to relinquish her independence, ultimately isolating her from family and sabotaging her career and finances. The discussion is equal parts cautionary tale and cathartic healing, offering deep insights into recovery, shame, boundaries, and the universality of loneliness.

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Main Themes

• Vulnerability and healing through sharing personal trauma
• Psychological manipulation and abuse within high-control groups ("cults")
• The blurred lines between supportive community and unhealthy dependence
• The impact of childhood dynamics on adult relationships
• Fame as a mask for private struggles
• Reclaiming one's voice and agency after trauma

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Bethany’s Motivation to Tell Her Story

• Pride Over Excitement:
  “It's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell... but that became part of the healing, was recognizing how relatable my story was... And then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, it just felt like this is the right thing to do.” — Bethany Joy Lenz [02:03]

• Purpose in Sharing:
  Lenz explains that her memoir, Dinner for Vampires, isn’t just about personal catharsis but aims to offer hope and solidarity for others recovering from controlling relationships or environments.

Childhood, Loneliness, and the Search for Belonging

• Roots of Loneliness:
  Lenz describes being an only child with young parents dealing with addiction, codependency, and frequent moves—leaving her craving stability and a place to belong.
  “It was hard to maintain friendships.” — Lenz [05:24]

• Faith Environment:
  She expresses how the evangelical Christian rules-based approach gave her a sense of order, but not room to make mistakes or truly connect, which created emotional distance at home.
  “There was no real relationship... t’s a lot of, ‘Here are the rules... when you accomplish all these... you will be happy.’” — Lenz [05:56]

• Longing for Connection:
  "I wanted a place to belong. It was really hard to feel like I belonged anywhere except the theater..." — Lenz [09:07]

Grooming and Slow Manipulation: Entry Into the Cult

• Q: How did you first encounter this group?
  Lenz describes attending a benign Saturday night Bible study in LA with a friend, which felt comfortingly familiar [10:54].
  “At first it was just nothing to be suspicious about.”

• The Appeal of Community:
  “I was looking for a place to belong still... Community was harder to find, so I was in need of community.” — Lenz [11:46]

• Introduction of Les (the Cult Leader):
  “My first impression... I just didn’t like their faces... I remember having this, like, check in my gut and I thought it was because I just didn’t like their faces... I was like, ‘what an asshole I am.’” — Lenz [13:26]
  Bethany traces her inability to trust her instincts to childhood, making her more susceptible to coercion. “I must be wrong... I can’t trust my own instincts. It makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you.” [10:17]

• Gradual Control:
  “It was a slow transition. It took about a year... felt like I was being challenged... called up to be more... That was exciting.” — Lenz [14:41]

Indoctrination and Isolation

• Suppressing Independence:
  “Independence is bad... anything that separates you from the unity with the group... that needs to be addressed and shut down.” — Lenz [17:09]

• “Bio Family” and Chosen Family:
  The group began to explicitly label her biological family as “bio family,” implying the group was her true family and encouraging distance from her parents in escalating fashion.
  “He didn’t have to be subtle about it anymore... He could just start saying things like ‘bio family’...” — Lenz [20:49]

• The Insidious Slow Burn:
  “Nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, ‘Hey, I can’t wait to fuck up my life. Where do I sign?’ So it happens really slowly.” — Lenz, quoting Mark Vicente [22:40]

• Progression to Isolation:
  Small, reasonable comments by group leaders built trust, then exploited it to encourage isolation from her family [24:00].

• Parental Concern:
  Her father recognized the warning signs and openly confronted her; her mother played “the long game” with gentle caution. Eventually, the group told her explicitly to cut off her father [27:41].
  “By that point, I was several years in and I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents.” — Lenz [28:55]

Control Mechanics: Taboo Questions and Agency Loss

• "Illegal Questions":
  “An illegal question would be: maybe I married the wrong person. You’re not allowed to ask that... you just move forward.” — Lenz [29:57]

• “You can't have doubt about anything essentially in your life.” — Lenz [31:02]

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One Tree Hill: Fame in the Midst of Captivity

• Managing Two Realities:
  "The world was watching you on one of the biggest shows... while you were on this huge TV show, you were also dealing with this.” — Cooper [34:49]

• How the Cult Allowed Her to Work:
  The group maintained control while permitting members to pursue their careers, via constant communication and emotional leveraging rather than physical constraints.
  “It wasn’t a ‘join us, put on this robe, and let’s go all live in the forest together.’... It was very much communication based... constant community.” — Lenz [36:22]

• On Playing Haley:
  Lenz felt she could bring her “true, awkward self” to the role of Haley, providing catharsis through work [38:51].
  “When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down... it was a major catharsis for me.” — Lenz [42:05]

• Isolation on Set:
  The cult forced Bethany to distance herself from her co-stars, sabotaging real friendships—particularly with Sophia Bush and Hillary Burton.
  “I just became someone that nobody really knew how to connect with... when they said ‘cut’... I would only let people in so far.” — Lenz [42:05]
  “It’s almost like you... are aware that something is off and weird, but you’re so immersed in that world...” — Cooper [43:40]

• The "Superior" Feeling of Belonging to the Group:
  “I felt mostly superior to other people, and I felt mostly like they just can’t understand. And I’ve got an answer. I’ve figured— I mean, that’s any cult.” — Lenz [44:18]

• Co-Star Concerns:
  “They knew... By season two, they were like, ‘I think this is a cult. I think this is probably bad.’” — Lenz [46:38]

• Notable Exchange:
  “Are you in a cult?” — Tyler (One Tree Hill co-star), to Bethany [48:07]

  “No. I hate that people can’t understand the depth of relationship... why does it have to be a cult?” — Lenz [48:13]

Financial, Relational & Sexual Control

• Career Losses:
  The group, via “spiritual submission,” influenced Bethany to turn down major career opportunities, including Broadway’s Beauty and the Beast and major film roles [61:00].

• Financial Abuse:
  After merging finances with her then-husband (cult leader's son), Bethany was left with serious financial devastation—$2 million lost to the group and an additional $350,000 in court costs [85:27].

• Marriage Dynamics & “Spiritual Authority”: “The man basically gets the last word on everything... and you really are not allowed to question him... he’s responsible for you...” — Lenz [66:09]

  Having saved herself for marriage, Bethany experienced no sexual desire for her husband and was pressured onto a strict “sex schedule.”
  “Because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule basically of, like, ‘just do it, this is your duty, this is your job as a wife.’” — Lenz [69:43]

  The resulting trauma triggered symptoms of PTSD that impacted future relationships [71:09].

Leaving: The Breaking Point and Aftermath

• The Moment of Realization:
  It wasn’t until after One Tree Hill ended that, through therapy, she could name the truth.
  “My therapist... was like, ‘Are we ready to call it a cult yet?’... I was like, ‘No, like, that is not me.’ Guess what? Me. Yep, she was right.” — Lenz [77:11]

• Escape and Retribution:
  “My only friends, so I thought, suddenly turned on me... showing up at my house to... intimidate me... All of a sudden, no conversation. No. There just was no willingness to see.” — Lenz [81:06]

• Legal System Fails:
  The family court system was unable or unwilling to address non-physical abuse.
  “If you don’t have a physical altercation... they don’t consider it abuse... you can’t even use [the word ‘cult’] in court.” — Lenz [82:23, 89:05]

• Financial Fallout:
  “When I was in the group, they took $2 million from me. When I got out, I had about $250,000 left... The court costs in total were about $350,000.” — Lenz [85:27]

• Biggest Misconception about Cults:
  “It's the same misconception I had... cults are... crazy people and they all live together in some weird big house... I didn’t think I was in one... there is no real definition of a cult. You can’t even use it in court.” — Lenz [88:34]

Healing, Trust, and Hope

• Trusting Again:
  “I don’t want to go through the world as someone who doesn’t trust people... but maybe not credit, if that makes sense... You don’t get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit card of, like, friend... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.” — Lenz [90:31]

• Life After:
  Shame, she says, only shrinks when exposed:
  “Please don’t live in shame. Don’t let it keep you closed off and shut down... let it out of your body. It’s the only way to actually find hope and move forward.” — Lenz [92:58]

• Message to Listeners:
  “I hope people feel like they’re not alone... I really want people to feel like their own shame, their own mistakes are faceable, that there’s hope...” — Lenz [92:58]

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• [10:17] "If you start at a young age to believe my gut is off, I can't trust myself... it makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you." — Bethany Joy Lenz

• [22:40] "Nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, 'Hey, I can't wait to fuck up my life. Where do I sign?'" — Lenz, quoting Mark Vicente

• [42:05] "When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down... it was a major catharsis for me... the only place in my life I could actually do that." — Bethany Joy Lenz

• [88:34] "It's the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't think I was in one... we've used it as this slang for things that are super weird." — Bethany Joy Lenz

• [92:58] "Please don't live in shame. Don't let it keep you closed off and shut down... It's the only way to actually find hope and move forward." — Bethany Joy Lenz

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Recommended Timestamps

• [02:03] Joy on her motivation for writing
• [10:17] The roots of self-doubt: suppressing intuition
• [13:26] First encounter and intuition about cult leader “Les”
• [22:40] “Nobody joins a cult...” – how the group took control
• [29:57] “Illegal questions”—control through forbidden doubt
• [34:49–44:49] The intersection of One Tree Hill stardom and cult captivity
• [61:00] The cult’s impact on her career
• [69:43] On sexual coercion and “the schedule”
• [77:11] The moment of realization, therapy, and extraction
• [85:27–88:34] Financial abuse and misconceptions about cults
• [90:31] Relearning trust, letting go of shame

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Cultic relationships rarely look like stereotypes; they thrive in normal settings, using trust, relatability, and good intentions at first.
• The line between a supportive community and a controlling one is crossed when independence, doubt, or outside contact is discouraged or subtly shamed.
• Financial, emotional, and spiritual abuse can be as devastating as physical abuse—and are far harder to prove or prosecute.
• Rebuilding after trauma involves the hard work of learning to trust again—both oneself and others—but also setting wise boundaries.
• Shame is only diminished by facing and sharing it: “Don’t let it keep you closed off and shut down... let it out of your body. It’s the only way to actually find hope and move forward.”

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To anyone feeling isolated or controlled, this episode offers hope, practical wisdom, and the candid, supportive energy that Call Her Daddy is known for—reminding listeners you are never truly alone.

Transcript

[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Alex Cooper]

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Bethany Joy Lenz, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Thank you.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Your book Dinner for Vampires comes out this week. Congratulations. How are you feeling?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I feel proud of it. I, you know, people often ask me, are you excited? And I'm thinking excited is not the right adjective because I. It's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell. It's not like I thought, oh, this is. This is great material. I just live through something traumatic. And, you know, you go through therapy and you want to just work through it in your private life. But that became part of the healing was recognizing how relatable my story was to so many other people who hadn't been in something as dramatic as a cult. And yet somehow I was finding myself in conversations with so many Women in particular, but so many people who had found themselves in this kind of dynamic relationally. And the more I had that conversation, the more that brought healing to me. And then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, it just felt like this is the right thing to do. It's also, what good are our mistakes if we can't? It's honestly, one of the things I love about you and listening to your show is that. That there's this sense of, like, an open mess, like. And I. It's. Please don't take that the wrong way.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

No, I take it in the best way.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's actually really wonderful and really comforting to see somebody just living in this space of I don't know.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And also, look at this stupid decision I made, and look at this weird mistake that I made. And, oh, we're not alone.

[Alex Cooper]

We're not alone.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And I. And I really appreciate you coming today because I. I think you're right in talking about. There is something that you've gone through that may be at face value to people or, like, I cannot relate to being in a cult. Themes that you experience throughout this moment in your life are so relatable, and are these very tangible experiences that so many women listening are gonna be like, yep, yep, yep, I've been there. So we're gonna get into it. I mean, I just have to, though, say, like. And I was saying it too, downstairs. The book is incredible, and it's so fascinating because you do talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents and One Tree Hill and, oh, by the way, for 10 years, you were in this cult. And I think it's important to. To kind of go back to what led you to this moment. And then we're gonna kind of go all through it, but let's get into it. How would you describe yourself as a kid?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I was. I had a huge imagination. I was lonely. I had a really. I guess it was kind of like an old soul where I think I always had this sense of, this too shall pass. This moment is not the biggest thing ever. And that helped me a lot in the feeling alone, feeling the solitude. I don't know why. I seemed to always understand that as a kid, but, yeah, so there was this comfort in knowing that there was something bigger out there. Another was another day coming. There was hope, and it's okay to just be alone. And I learned to enjoy my own company, which was a huge gift as well.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

That is a gift. Why would you say you were lonely?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I was an only child, and my Parents were wonderful, but very young and doing the best that they could at their age. We had addiction in the family, we had co dependence. There were so many dynamics at play and everybody was just trying to stay afloat. So. And we moved a lot, so it was hard to maintain friendships.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

When you looked at your parents relationship growing up, like, what did their relationship feel like to you? Was it very loving? Was it toxic? Was it, what was it like?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It was, it was tense. It was very tense. I think they really loved each other. And as you, as so many of us discover that those feelings of love are often fleeting and you have to build on something more. And they both had a deep connection to their faith and really wanted to build their marriage on that. But you know, they grew up in that. They raised me and they grew up had come out of that 80s movement of evangelicalism that was so. It promised so many things without giving you a foundation of a real relationship, moment to moment with God. There was no sense of it in terms of my experience with that movement, which I grew up in. There wasn't a lot of stuff space to be a mess and to make mistakes and to just like figure it out day by day. It was a lot of here are the rules that you need to live by. And when you accomplish all these rules, then you will be happy. And they believed it as well and then discovered, oh, following all the rules all the time isn't actually working. And then the marriage became really tense because of that and other factors.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

How do you think your, like watching your parents dynamic, like, shaped your view on like love and marriage?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Wow, what a great question. Damn. I didn't know I was going to therapy.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Alex, I wore my glasses for you.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Okay. My. I think that, I think that it, it became an unsafe place emotionally because I, I didn't know what they were dealing with. You're too young to understand the inner dynamics of a grown relationship. And so it became a mystery. And it was like, I don't want, I don't want this dynamic. The sort of one person's really calm, one person's really hyper and they're constantly at each other's throats and there's so many problems. And it just was like, this is. They're figuring so much out. I better just kind of raise myself.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And then going into later in my life, as I started, I got so boy crazy because then you're looking for something to fill those holes. And I don't know what, what it did to my view of relationships other than to know that I didn't really have anything modeled for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want. How do I do it? So I've probably spent a lot of time fishing for answers in all the wrong places. I mean, clearly.

[Alex Cooper]

But it is helpful to hear you

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

just kind of, like, talk about the foundation of what you were. Like living in this house and just watching your parents and knowing you wanted something different, but not know. Knowing exactly what it was. Because I think understanding that is important to what we're about to talk about.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And how you got to where you got to.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. I just. I wanted a place to belong. It was really hard to feel like I belonged anywhere except the theater, which was, you know, that's why I went into that field. But, yeah, there was a lot of that. There was a lot of my parents trying to protect me and. Which ended up being gaslighting without them knowing it. A lot of, hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? And I'm met with, yeah, everything's fine. And Which a lot of us do with our kids. Right. You want to protect your kids. So it's so natural to go, no, no, everything's fine. Everything's okay. And you don't realize you're denying the child's reality. You're not acknowledging, yeah, something's wrong. We're not having a good day, but it will be okay.

[Alex Cooper]

Right.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You're constantly trying to understand. You can feel it. Like, you know when something's off. Like, kids are so intuitive. And then you're asking your parents, like, please, please let me in on what's happening in our family dynamic. And them not allowing you to know that also probably, like, created a false sense of reality of, like, you're then having to, like, finish the sentence for yourself. Because I know it's not okay, but they won't tell me. So I guess I'll just again, be alone, go into my room and create whatever my narrative is going to be for myself. Because that's all you can do.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And actually, what it did was, oh, I must be wrong. Like, I feel so that something's wrong. I feel like something's off. I can feel that in my gut. But everyone is telling me that everything's okay, so my gut must be off. So when you start at a young age to believe my gut is off, I can't trust myself. I can't trust my own instincts. It makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Let's talk about the Big house, family, cult. So you were in your early 20s and then you moved to LA. You're pursuing acting. How did you end up meeting this group?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, so I was in la. I went with a. I went with a girlfriend to. To her Saturday night Bible study that she was going to. It was very benign. It was. It was the same kind of Bible study I'd been going to. Having been raised in, in the Western Evangelical church. It was super common. Wednesday night, Saturday night meetings, you just show up and it's like an addition to church. It's a way of sort of keeping the church going beyond Sunday and there's music and food and everybody talks and gets vulnerable and it felt very, very normal to me. So, yeah, at first it was just nothing to be suspicious about.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And what were you feeling like you were wanting? Because once your friend brought you, then you kept going and you're like, what were you looking for when you were kind of like starting to join this group?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I was looking for a place to belong still. I think that was the constant search. Where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I had moved here. I'd lived in New York before then, and I loved New York. It felt like home. I was in Jersey for eight years and then Manhattan, and I felt like a New Yorker. And I loved the creativity there and the pulse and it just felt so great. And moving to la, everything's really spread out and community was harder to find, so. So I. I was in need of community.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Which I think is a really normal thing. I have so many women write into me being like, I moved to New City, I don't know how to make friends. And I think a huge thing that people look for are groups to join. Like, can I join Soul Cycle? Right. Like, we're going biking, every. Whatever it is, like you're trying to find a community that you can feel

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

a part of something your tribe. Yes, that's it.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And that is normal. You write about when things really started to go downhill was a man named Les entered the picture for this group, kind of started to take control of the group that you were seemingly already a part of.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

What was your first impression of him?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

My first impression was that he was just kind of a jolly guy. I mean, I didn't think much of him. I. I met him across a room and he was just another face that I was meeting in la. His whole family was with him when we met. And I. I do remember having this, like, check in my gut and I thought it was because I. All right, I'LL be really honest.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I thought it was because I didn't like their faces. Have you ever met someone where you just like, I don't like your face.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Right. Because you're kind of like, I don't know if I trust you or something about it.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. And then you're like, what an asshole. I am like, somebody's face. Like, fuck off.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

But I get what you're saying. There's just something about it. You're like, huh?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. And I. And the whole family, I just. There was something about me that was like, I don't like their faces. And then. And then I felt terrible, and I was, like, judging myself, you know? You know, Joy, what an asshole you are. And so that was my first impression, was just, here's a family of people I'd never met. They're friends with my friends. I don't like their faces. And I'm. I'm a jerk for that. And I'm going to get over it. And let's get to know each other.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I love the honesty. You're like, something up for. Meanwhile, it's like you had that gut feeling. But again, from a young age, you were kind of taught your gut is wrong, so don't think that there's anything wrong with this person. You're fine, Joy. Keep going. Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And it couldn't be my gut. It has to be something else. What is it? Faces.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Right.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Right. So once less kind of took over. Can you describe to me how it. In the beginning, just like a dynamic shift, like, what changed when this man kind of came into the picture, it

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

started moving from something that felt very communal and very participatory, like everyone was participating, and it takes time. Like, he couldn't have just come in and changed it overnight, you know, There was a slow transition. It took about a year. Now that I. In retrospect, I'm able to look back at it, and it was slow. He started spending more time with us. He started investing in the lives of the group members and the people who were there. I mean, group members. I guess it was just the friends that were gathering and started to lead the meetings. And he was a pastor without a church at the time, which I found out later. Why you have to read the book to find out. And so it felt like, oh, wow, what an amazing opportunity we have to give this sweet pastor without a church, a forum to speak and to share the things that are on his heart. And it felt encouraging and felt like I was being challenged and called up to be more than I was currently living in spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And that was exciting.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think it's important to, like, as we're going through this journey and obviously there's so many more details in the book, but I. I really appreciate you clarifying that. It's like this. There was not a moment someone walked through the doors. And it's like, this is how we're going to do things now. Because every human being in that establishment would have been like, this feels icky and weird. It's just like when we see in abusive relationships where people that are manipulative are very good at knowing, it is a slow burn, so you don't notice it immediately. It's just this slow moment that all of a sudden you wake up one day be like, wait, how did this.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

How did this happen?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And so hearing a year of this person just kind of coming in and slowly getting closer to everyone and like settling down roots and making you trust this person was the beginning days.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Something you wrote about in the book, and this was kind of when things started to get more intense, is you write about how you were told that independence created an internal rebellion against God. Can you explain what this meant and how this, like, impacted your life in this, like, view?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, there. There are so many things in the book that I hope for people who grew up in this faith. Hopefully it'll be a little easier for them to spot the healthy versus unhealthy versions of things, which I think in so many realms there are healthy and unhealthy versions. The unhealthy version of that is independence is bad. Therefore, anything that separates you from the unity with the group, or translate it to an abusive relationship, the person that you're with, translate it to a work environment, your work community, anything that's inhibiting your ability to cast off yourself and serve other people in favor of yourself, that's problematic and that needs to be addressed and shut down. Does that make sense? Is it clear?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It makes so much sense. And I appreciate you kind of showing the different ways it can show up, not just again, like in a group setting, but like an. In a relationship or work. Like, I think everyone listening, Daddy gang, like, we've all been there where you start to feel like you're independence is either being threatened or you find yourself getting too wrapped up in something. And then we all have that moment. We pray that we're like, wait, I was losing myself. Like, we've all said that at some point in our life, but how far did you go before you realized you lost yourself? Everyone Has a different experience and there's a different barometer. And I get what you're talking about here is like, you are being preached, like, stop living this independent life. Rely on us, the group.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And you believe it. I believed it because it felt like, yeah, I don't want to be out here floating alone, doing everything on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots? We all have blind spots. That's a reasonable thing for someone to say to you. So, okay, I've got blind spots. Well, I need community. I need people to help me see what my blind spots are. So if I live in super independence, then I'm not allowing people in. So I have to live in this place where I. I trust other people to see things for me that I can't see. The problem is, of course, if you are allowing the wrong people or person to speak into your life in that way, then they can just wreak havoc and say and do whatever they want. And so it's a very fine line.

[Alex Cooper]

And you think, joy, like, that's why I was.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I'm happy. You wrote so much about your childhood in the book, and we lightly talked about in the beginning of, like, you referenced this loneliness that you felt as a child. And I think anyone that you can be so independent, that's so different than being lonely. And I think when you experience loneliness, we've all experienced it again. To what degree? Everyone has their own situation. But, like, you crave. We all crave human connection, and we crave feeling a part of something. So having that been so integral to your childhood of feeling alone and being an only child, I can understand you, like, seeking out this feeling of, like, safety and comfort and people that care about you and are bringing you in.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

The cult, though, and how we talk about. We started with the independence. They used a lot of very, like, loaded language that you came to learn, like, bio family. What did that term mean, Joy?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Bio family. That's the part where everybody runs out the door.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Right? Like, that's where I lose you guys in the story.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, yeah. It was far into the story by then. We were so. And I think what I wrote was that he didn't have to be subtle, less character, didn't have to be subtle about it anymore. He could just start saying things like, bio family. Bio family meant the family you were born into, but was not necessarily the family that you may have been called to be a part of, called spiritually into.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I do think a lot of people are more progressed now to be like, I can choose my family.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So, like, I understand the concept, but I get what you're saying now. It's like it was a whole different level of manipulation that was going on. That's the thing.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

You understand the concept.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes, yes.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

So many of us.it's a pain to go be with my family for the holidays because of all the. I'm not saying me, but so many of us say that. And. And I want to go to vacation with my friends because that's my family. Hey, fam. Hey. Chosen famous. You hear it in church all the time. What's up, family? We're a tribe. And what's so insidious about it is that when someone uses something like that to say, actually, we're separating you, it's not just an extra club that you're a part of. It's actually creating that. Suppressive person is another term. That space of you are separate, you are other. We are here. This is real family. And that is bio family.

[Alex Cooper]

And now let's talk about that, because

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

that is again, now where, like, that differentiation is important. It's not just like, we're another extended family. Can you talk to me about how they encouraged you to distance yourself from your parents?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, it's slow, man. Like, it doesn't.

[Alex Cooper]

Again.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, I've said this quote a couple times. Mark Vincente, who was in nxivm, he has this great quote in the vow. He's in the kitchen. He's like, nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, hey, I can't wait to fuck up my life. Where do I sign? So it happens really slowly. And they. There were things, like, small comments, dropped a lot of things, like, hey, how was your time with your mom? Well. Oh, it's fine. You know, like usual. Well, whatever. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's. That's tough to not have a great relationship with your mom. Yeah, it's okay. I mean, she's my mom. Yeah. But, you know, don't forget, like, we're your family, we're here for you. And just. She's just on a different. On a different path, and she's on a different way. Okay, so that's the easy one, right? Like, that's the first, like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see her. I can have space for her. And then it's like, well, well. Did you talk to your mom about that? Yeah, I shared it with her. Just might just be careful, you know, because you're just spiritually in a different place than her. And she may not be able to understand, and I would just hate for her to be sewing things into you that are not the truth of your identity. And, you know, generations are powerful, and so just be careful. Oh, gosh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Okay. And then that's the little seed. And then the next one is. Yeah, I like your mom. She's, you know, she's really sweet, but. Yeah, she just really doesn't understand you. And I just want to encourage you. She doesn't understand boundaries, Joy. So just please make sure that you're protecting your boundaries. And you don't need to call her back if you're not ready to. You don't need to. Just because she's demanding something doesn't mean you have to give it to her. All things that sound reasonable in the right context. But you. That's why it takes time. Because it's not just something you can say to somebody. You have to gain their trust. You have to. I had to believe so many other good things. I had to see mornings with coffee, sitting on the front porch talking about philosophy. I had to see. To see parenting moments. I had to see so many things that built these. This illusion of trust.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

That when someone who is a narcissist sews those things into you, then not to use, yeah, Christianese or weird terms, but whatever. We all say these things. So I still second guess myself all the time, as you can see, but it's so much more believable.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah. No, and I appreciate you kind of

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

sharing that gradual conversation because then I can imagine it just kept going to the point of complete isolation from your family, of, I don't know if I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then it can get. Once you fully have their trust, it's like, joy, you know, you're better than that. You should not be speaking to your mother because you know she's going to bring you down. And then it's. And again, I think everyone, if we pause, has those moments with their friends, right? Where it's like, you know, your friend needs to break up with their boyfriend. Let's just pretend, okay? We're using a really simple, simple conversation here, Daddy gang. You know, if you go to your friend and be like, your boyfriend is a dick. He is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him. Your friend is going to be like, no. Like, if anything, f you and walking

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

up, you're not in this relationship. You don't see what he's like at 3 in the morning. So Sweet, blah, blah, blah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes. But if you. We all have that ability. And it can be manipulative or not manipulative. But I believe with friendships, it's like, you know, you have to be gradual and easy. With those friends, you'd be like, hey, how are you feeling? Then they open up to you. Then the next, because you know, you can't. You don't want your friend to shut off. And you know, she won't listen to you unless you, like, lightly.

[Alex Cooper]

Just give her the space to talk.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And then one day she may be like, well, what do you think? And then you open up to be like, I think you deserve better. I love you so much. I'm here. No matter. It's. It's a natural human being thing that can be good. But what you're describing, there was no good behind it because this person, the intent was to isolate you.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Where what the example I'm giving is, it can look the same from outside, but it's really like, no, no. You want your friend to have the best, but you're also recognizing human beings. If you walk in a room and you say, do this, they're going to be like, what's wrong with you? It's the gradualness that allows people to get into a position where you trust someone and then hopefully that person is not a manipulative psycho to be manipulating you in a way that is like, going to fuck up your life.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And we trust. I think as human beings, that's natural to be like, wow, I've seen you be such a great person in front of me. Why wouldn't I trust this person?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes, why wouldn't we?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I mean, I'm going to rant, but I'm.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

No, it's great. Because who wants to go through the world mistrusting everyone? That's. That's not a happy way to live.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Did your parents ever come to you with concern about this group?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Absolutely. My. My dad has. Was much more forceful and open about it. And he's a very smart man. He's an incredibly educated man. So he had done so much research and he had. He grew up in the 70s. I mean, talk about cults, like they were everywh.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think I know this. Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. So he definitely was. He came to visit once and, you know, he was like, this feels weird. But I guess he told my mom, like, no, I think this is a cult. This is bad news. But he was much more open with me about it. My mom was really smart and knew how to play the long game. So she just kind of waited and watched and. And the more that I communicated about that with Les and the other people in leadership in this group, the easier it was for them to see where my allegiances lay lie. And there was a meeting when they. They actually explicitly just told me, like, you really should just cut your dad out. Like, you should stop talking to him. He's toxic.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And how did you react when you would hear that?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

By that point, I was several years in and I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents. So I heard it. I did not do it then, but it did plant a seed of the people who I have trusted to see. My blind spots are telling me that this is what's best for me. And every time I talk to my dad, he's telling me I'm in a cult and he's worried about me and it's starting to wear on me. And eventually, once I got married, it was easy to sort of pass the buck to my ex husband or my husband at the time and let him deal with it. And then he just kind of completely shut the door. And I didn't talk to my dad for six years. Yeah, it was awful.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

To condition you from doubting the group, you write about how they got control and they would use phrases like illegal questions. Can you give me an example of an illegal question?

[Ad Read Voice]

Sure.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

An illegal question would be, maybe I married the wrong person. You're not allowed to ask that question because you are already married. It's done. There's no, there's no questioning. You just move forward. That's a big one.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Wow. Like, oh, my God, where do we go from there? Shit. Joy.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of some other ones, you know, other legal questions would be more like. That I'm thinking of right at the top of my head is, are more spiritually related. Did God call me to be a part of this family? Did. Am I. Did I do the right thing by moving up here instead of staying in la? Should I have taken this, this acting job? The questions that are retrospective, I guess I haven't thought of it in that term, but yeah, it's illegal. Questions are things that would cause you to call into question things that you've already chosen.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So you can't have doubt about anything

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

essentially in your life. Yeah, you really can't. Which is so. It was so damaging getting out of it and being on the other side of that to not be allowed to question where you are in your life. How could you ever grow? Well, that's the point, really. Right like, if you're in a group like that, they don't want you.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

They don't want you to grow. They don't want you to think for yourself. But I can imagine that creates this, like, numbness in you where you just start to get good at being like, oh, almost about to ask yourself the question. Nope, don't ask. Because that I shouldn't do that. And. And then you. Once you create a pattern within yourself, it's hard to revert that pattern.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, we need to talk about One Tree Hill. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. I have been so happy because Matt and I just got back from a

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

trip together and we booked through Airbnb. And let me just tell you something.

[Alex Cooper]

Matt and I knew really all we

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

need is a hot tub, a king size bed, and our dogs.

[Alex Cooper]

And we found a dog friendly place.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

We got a hot tub.

[Alex Cooper]

Also, there was a fireplace, which I loved, and I was so, so happy. Daddy gang, this is your sign that booking a Airbnb, it just makes your trip better.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You get to explore these new cities. You get to feel like you're a local.

[Alex Cooper]

You can immerse yourself. You can also go to local grocery stores and then you can cook in the kitchen. If you get a house with friends or your partner. I just love it so much because

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think this, at this point in

[Alex Cooper]

my life, I want to immerse myself in new cultures. And if you don't really know where to go or what you're looking for, I highly suggest checking out the guest favorites feature, which is basically a collection

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

of the most loved homes on Airbnb.

[Alex Cooper]

That's how Matt and I personally found our home that we went and stayed at.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think it's just so fun to

[Alex Cooper]

see how other travelers enjoyed it and they leave reviews and you can see

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

what people loved about it and why it would be great for you.

[Alex Cooper]

So your next great trip starts with a great place to stay. Whether it's a beautiful apartment in the middle of the city or a chic winter escape, Airbnb has a place for your travel story. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by BetMGM. BetMGM has exciting ways for you to bet on basketball. And new customers can sign up for BETMGM using bonus code CHD to unlock unlock their new player offer and score up to 1500 dollars back in bonus bets if they don't win their first bet. Daddy gang, are you ready? BetMGM and Game Sense remind you to play responsibly. See betmgm.com for terms 21+only. Their promotional offer is not available in Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, Nevada, Ontario, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico or West virginia. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER available in the US for New York and 8-77-8, HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 for Arizona, 1-800next step for Massachusetts, 1-800-327-5050 for Iowa, 1-800-Bets off for Puerto Rico, 1-800-98100 23 Subject eligibility requirements. Minimum deposit of $10. Rewards are non withdrawable bonus bets that expire in 7 days. In partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Okay, we need to talk about One

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Tree Hill because I think what's so fascinating about this story is the world was watching you on one of the biggest shows on television. Still to this day is so beloved. I rewatch it any chance I get.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I love that you watched it.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You don't even know. Like I am obsessed. Like I could just pop episode one on again and let's re watch the whole thing. Such a fan. But again, it is so interesting and it is really the proof of like we don't know what people are going through and we see these celebrities or actors or singers or whoever, public facing and you think you know their life. And while you were on this huge TV show, you were also dealing with this. Hell yeah. Can you take me to like, what drew you to One Tree Hill? Like you're in this cult at the time that you go to get this job, right?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay, talk to me. What drew you to One Tree Hill at this time?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I was well, they actually shot the pilot without me. They shot it with somebody else. I had gotten the script for it. I, it was called Ravens. At the time I turned it down. I really wanted to just focus on film and, and I just said, I, this is, I just got off a soap opera in New York. I want to try something different. So I turned it down. A couple of grounded pilots later, it came back around and they said they're recasting, they're shooting in two weeks and will you please go screen test for this role?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So I did love how involved because I think again, when I just want to like clarify like when people are listening to this and like hold on, wait.

[Alex Cooper]

So you're in a cult but you're

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

still allowed to work? Like I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time. Like, oh, you're allowed to go and work and be without these people.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Oh, right.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Do you know What? I mean, like, can you explain how involved they were in your decision to take the show? And, like, how did that work at the time?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. That's one of the things that also made it so insidious, is that it wasn't a. Join us, put on this robe, and let's go all live in the forest together. Yeah. There was still a lot of autonomy. I think that's sort of how he kept everybody locked in, because we were all really smart. This wasn't a group of people who were not smart. Like, everyone was ambitious and had careers, and so he had to have known coming in that this is not gonna work if I try and ask everybody to just move up north and live with me in this weird little house. Big house. So, yeah, it was very much communication based on daily activities. Hanging out lunches, lots of phone calls and email chains. And texting wasn't as much of a thing back then, but we were in constant community and communication with each other. So it didn't feel like. I mean, I don't know that he had to work that hard in that regard because he. Meaningless. Yep. Daddy gang. I always wanted to say that.

[Alex Cooper]

Daddy gang.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Daddy gang. It's your moment.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's my moment.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes. Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

So I think that was. It's not like the traditional cult, when you think of that. We're not all living on a commune. I mean, there was a big house that several people all lived in at once, but there were also their own families with jobs and other things going on that they all lived nearby. Yeah. Does that. Does that make sense? Does that help?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I. I completely understand. It's like there's someone constantly in communication with you, and so if anything, like, when you're starting a new job, everyone feels like, oh, I have no friends here. Whatever. You had this safety net and the support system that was ever present, so it didn't make you ever feel like you were alone, which is huge to have, especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling like, oh, I. I'm a little out of place. And you're kind of never out of place because you have this support system.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You played Hayley James Scott. Yes. In what ways did you relate to your character initially?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I really related with this sort of awkward girl next door thing that. That felt very comfortable for me. It felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be because a lot of the roles I would get, you know, I was blonde and I had a Big personality. And so I would get a lot of the. These sort of leading lady parts or, you know, ingenue parts. But I always felt like. I even say in the book, I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like, trash panda, like, cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my paws. Like, I've always just felt awkward and,

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

like, weird.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And so it was fun to be able to step into this character that felt actually so much more like me than what I was usually getting cast in for. So that was fun.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

If you had to say, what do you think was the most iconic Haley James Scott moment? I know. That's so hard. Give us one.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Oh, my God. Okay. I. I mean, the most iconic Haley moment. It's hard because so many of them were with James Lafferty. I know, you know, that that kiss in the rain when they. When Nathan and Haley first finally get together and they just, like, have that kiss in the rain and that hose with holes in it and freezing cold water was pouring down on us. It was so fun.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Like, the reality was, everyone, you thought it looked like rain.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And James and I had never kissed before, and he was, you know, 17, and I was cradle robbing at that point. And, you know, it was just awkward. You're smashing teeth and trying to, you know, you're young kids, just like, how do we kiss each other on camera?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Obsessed. It was fun. One of the most iconic scenes, and I feel like I do think of that when I think of you guys. So that was a good one.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

What is your favorite memory? Just from the show?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

There are a lot, but there are not as many as I wish there were, because at some point I kind of just checked out emotionally. But I would say early on, there were always hurricane warnings and hurricane. And actual hurricanes that came through and when. It wasn't too bad, but it was enough that they were like, hey, everybody, just go inside for a little while. We would often stay at somebody's house and the electricity would go out and you'd light candles and sit around and hang out and meet at the Waffle House and be like, well, we got the next four hours at the Waffle House. Somebody bring a deck of cards and hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating waffles. That was fun. That was early days of bonding when it was getting to know each other, trying to figure out who, who was who, who fit where. And yeah, I really loved that.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It makes my heart break for you that you, you know, just said, like, they're not as Many as I wish I had. Because obviously you did this show for so long. And you write about in the book how while you were filming, the leaders of this cult that you were a part of told you not to trust your co stars and to essentially stay away from them.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

How did isolating yourself affect your dynamic on set?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, I think I just became someone that nobody really knew how to connect with. When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down. I was 100% present. I was there. It was a major catharsis for me, actually. The ability to just be completely free and vulnerable. So that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like it saved my life in a lot of ways because it was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that. But when they said cut and we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting, I would only let people in so far. And I think, again, people in abusive relationships can relate to that too, because there's too much at stake if you allow in someone else's perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your life. So whether it's a group of people or one person, a lot of people who are in abusive situations will hide the abuse because, like, I don't know why I'm living in this misery, but I don't want your opinion about why I'm living in this misery because then I'll have to maybe really deal with it in a different way.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It's almost like you kind of.

[Alex Cooper]

You're so.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You are aware that something is off and weird, but you're so in, like, immersed in that world.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Like, protective almost.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

That it's kind of like you, you know, that people wouldn't fully understand the extent of it, so it's not worth letting them in at all.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

But I wonder, like, on that set

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

with all these, like, young people, like, did you have moments as much as you were, like, really being manipulated by this cult? Like, did you have moments where you're like. Like, what. What am I doing? Like, or were you still. Couldn't really see it at that point.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I couldn't see, what am I doing. I. I felt mostly superior to other people, and I felt mostly like they just can't understand. And I've got an answer. I've figured, I mean, that's any cult. That's the idea is we've got something special that you don't have. Unfortunately, that really colored a lot of my Relationships with people. But the thing is, your gut never goes away. I don't think.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I don't think so either.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

So I still felt this sense of self loathing and like, it's an unending ladder that you're just constantly trying to climb to achieve, to do the things that are gonna save you or whatever you're trying to. Whatever enlightenment your level you're trying to reach. And I was so in that zone that everything I did was. Every interaction I had was. Was colored by that. And I did at the same time because I had this sort of self loathing. I also really, I guess maybe was jealous of other people on the show too. Not. Not the way that women are jealous of each other in a cliche way, but more of the freedom to be a mess. The freedom to just explore life and ask questions that weren't illegal and just the freedom to, like, live your life. Yeah, I was jealous of the. Of the freedom to live life. And. And I. But I was so committed to my belief system that I would never allow myself to cross over into that. And I think it just created a difficult dynamic for having a relationship. Like, Joy just has a. You can only go so far. There's a. There's a wall.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

When.

[Alex Cooper]

Now, when you look back, like, if

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

you were honest with yourself because you can now see it in a different way, like, what do you think they all thought of you?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, I think they thought that I was stubborn and weird and in a cult.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Eventually.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, eventually.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

They did it, obviously.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

No, they knew. They knew. They knew because I think they probably felt really bad for me.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

How soon do you think they knew? Give us by two years.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

In two years. So, yeah, I would say by season two, they were like, I think this is a. Like a cult. I think this is, like, probably bad.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Did anyone ever try to say anything to you?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, I did have one really good friend who was a. She was one of the set pas. And I trusted her so much, I think, honestly, because she was Catholic and she was the only religious person on set. And so I was like another religious person. So you may not be as far along spiritually as I am. However, you're like.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Do you want me to introduce you to Les?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

That's right. I've got a great guy for you.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah. So dark.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

But I did trust her. And she and her husband were wonderful people. And my husband at the time and I used to hang out with them all the time, and we'd go over their house for wine nights and it was like safe haven. And so she definitely tried in. She, again, was like my mother, Very smart, long game, like, knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly present questions. But she knew she couldn't push too hard or I'd push her away. Really, really good friend, and I so appreciate that. But nobody else on the show. No, nobody ever said. I mean, Tyler once just flat out came out and was like, are you in a cult? I love him so much.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Stop.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

That should tell you so much about his personality.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

He's so great. And when someone would say that to you, like, what did you say?

[Alex Cooper]

No.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I was like, no. I hate that. People can't understand the depth of relationship that happens when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why does it have to be a cult? Why does it have to be weird? Like, I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's like to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad and shallow must your life be? Oh, man.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

You doing that even now, Joy. I'm like, oh, my God. I feel like. But I could see how people around you then would just, like, roll their eyes and be like, okay, I'm literally walking back on set like, there's no point. So you can and. And you have again, we have all been there. When someone genuinely believes something so deep to their core, there is no point to try to change that. Everyone is on their own path and journey, and you gotta let people figure it out on their own, through their own time. It doesn't mean they didn't care, but I can imagine it's like, what are we all gonna do? Have an intervention? Like, we're here to do a job. She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

You know, that's it. It just became a professional environment. And they did. I know Paul Johansson and probably Greg Pranger, our executive producer, and a couple other people had a meeting at one point, like, let's talk about this. Do we need to be worried about her? You know, is she. Financially. This looks bad. Is she in danger? Like, what do we need to do? But I think at the end of the day, they realized exactly what you just said. Nobody can wake you up but you. Like, at some point, it's just the right time.

[Alex Cooper]

You write about how at the time,

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

you couldn't be friends with Sophia Bush because of your own insecurities and militant beliefs. What was it about Sophia that made you uncomfortable?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I think we were both approaching life from a similar way. But from opposite perspectives. So the motive, I think, was similar in she. I didn't. I'm not her. I didn't grow up as her. But I think she grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and how things should be done and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful. But that the way that we were approaching it maybe was too similar. And because the conclusions that we had come to about life and God and all those things were very different. There just was no space for listening. She would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and hear me than I would have been at the time. But I think fundamentally there was probably a similarity.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I mean, I think for a while, Brooke Davis and Haley didn't get along on set anyways or on the screen, so it kind of worked. But, like, was it difficult on set where you're just, like, not getting completely along with someone, but, like, you don't know how to handle it and you're young?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, those were. Those days were hard because I. It was this sort of. And I think I write about this too. I know I did. The paralysis and desire, the feeling of, like, I want to connect with you. I want to be friends with you. Why can't we? Why don't you know how? Why don't I know how? What is wrong? And yet we have to show up and pretend like we're really close. And so we're going through the motions of close friendship, but not actually knowing how to connect. It's hard. It's really hard. I mean, I think you could feel that in romantic relationships too, where, you know, you love someone. You know, you have all these things in common. You just like, why are we not. What's going on?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah. Why is it not working?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, that's very important. Especially when you're that young and you have so many other friends and so many other things. At some point you're just like, ah, I don't know.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes. Yeah. You know, like, all good. Let's just leave it at what it is.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Have you guys talked about that and, like, just kind of gone through everything that happened back then in the day or.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

A little bit. Not. Not as much as I would like. And on Drama Queens, we've definitely talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great it was to reconnect and the feelings of unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time. But no, it's an ever evolving journey. There are still plenty of people in my life that I. Man, shame is A tough thing. Like, I. One of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling this story now, whereas before, I was so reluctant at first. But I think shame gets smaller and smaller the more you expose it and the more you just open up and say, this is my mess. But even having conversations with my stepsister or my little brother and having those moments of, hey, I disappeared for 10 years, and I'm really sorry. Like, I don't. I've had those moments very briefly, but it's painful because it's shame, you know, I can't imagine.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Joy, honestly, like. And I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like, again, back to an abusive relationship, like, it takes so long for someone to just even, like, get back to. You can't even get back to who you were because you were so young. So it's like, who am I without this abusive situation that I was in for so long? And I think, like, the repairing of the relationships, from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like, it's almost just this huge, heavy thing that, you know, is sitting in the corner. But you're like, but first I gotta make sure I'm really good, because then I. I first have make sure I'm good, so then I can begin to rebuild these relationships. Because if I'm still not good, then it's like, what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations on top of that, the difficult conversations, you do kind of have to acknowledge what happened. And it's again. And it's again. And it's again. And it's like taking accountability and also, like, asking for grace and understanding. And it's like, there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone after being a different person in the relationship. And it's like. It's a lot. I have a lot of empathy for you.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Thank you. I. You're speaking so eloquently about it, and I. It's really interesting to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrasing things puts things in perspective for me that, you know, I lived it. It's all in my brain, in a jumble. But as much as I was able to put on paper my thoughts, there's still so many things that are tangled that I still try and unwind. But what you were just saying about needing to feel like I'm good, I'm okay, before I go, reach out for

[Alex Cooper]

me,

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

that was more isolating. Like, I needed to connect with People not even necessarily in a way of like, hey, clean me up. You know, that was. Obviously, I have to do my own work. But experiencing the grace that you just said and that, the forgiveness and the looking across at somebody who's just like, I made mistakes, too, and it's okay. Like, we're all doing that. That's. Welcome to being a human being. Hello. Good morning. Welcome.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think that's the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have. This moment where they're like. Like, whoa.

[Alex Cooper]

I thought everyone was going to just,

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

like, never forgive me and turn their backs.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And everyone's like, babe, we've been waiting for you. Yes. Like, we love you. Welcome back. Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

And I think it's, like, it's humbling

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

because, again, when you're in the abusive situation, the abuser makes you feel like none of them love you. They will be. They will not be there. If you leave me, I'm the only thing you have. And so you believe that. And then the minute you leave, everyone's like, oh, my God, who's gonna. Who's gonna catch her first? We're all here.

[Alex Cooper]

We're ready with open arms.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And. And that must be very overwhelming.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

That was the biggest shock, leaving, because it has to get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

world

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

rather than stay another second in that situation.

[Alex Cooper]

And then turns out you're not alone.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And then it turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise and the biggest gift.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

We have so much still to go through. We're not there yet. But that makes me so happy to know because I think so many people listening are like, oh, my God, I needed to hear that, because I. They may be sitting in their car listening to this, going home to that abuser being like, wait, yeah, maybe this is the sign that, like. Because I do feel that right now, I feel like I only have him or I only have her. And then it's like, yeah, they are making you feel that way on the One Tree Hill thing. Because I do know, and I talk about this a lot with actors. Like, there is this, like, voyeuristic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics. And that's why I was asking you about the Sophia thing, because. Because it was interesting seeing you write about it in the book, because we all fell in love with you and her and all the characters on this show. I have to ask because it's. Call her Daddy. Fans are speculating that things between you and Hillary are not great. Not friends anymore. Don't follow each other on social media. I don't want to get too much into it because I know it's like, this is your personal life. I just wondered if you have anything to, like, say about it.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I. I love Hillary. I have always and will always and. And I don't have any problem with her. There have been some bizarre misunderstandings that I really hope we can figure out one day, but I love that girl. Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Thank you for sharing. Have you had any conversations about signing up for the reboot?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

No, it's way too early to even talk about that. I know. I don't know if it was a press release or something leaked or. I don't know. I mean, I had heard about it, but.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Are we going back to Tree Hill? Haley, we're going back. Okay. Good to know. Too early.

[Alex Cooper]

Too early.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So you're in One Tree Hill. We're watching all of this success and then the rumors obviously start. Is she in a cult? What is happening? How was that, like, affecting your career outside of One Tree Hill? Because I knew you wanted to do more things and didn't you have like an opportunity on Broadway that they stopped? Like, how much did they have a hold of your career?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, that was tough. That was a tough pill to swallow. I. Yeah, I mean, gosh, we started out on this show and it was budding and it was so successful and you know, the fans of TRL and now the show's everywhere and we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting auditions for huge studio movies or screen tests, rather. It was like they were. They were much farther along than I had ever been because once you have that kind of exposure, the studios are much more likely to sign off on you on their list. And so it was, it was an exciting time. And I was so far along in my submission and abdication to this group that I. And the thing was that it was disguised as submission to God. And so from that place, everything about my career started to then funnel through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right path or taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're somebody with ADHD who is just like, I can stand in front of a line at Starbucks for 10 minutes and everyone hates me. So let alone big life decisions, it's so paralyzing if you don't know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all gonna work out okay. So, yeah, there were. I was cast as Belle in Beauty and the Beast and gave that up at the, at the advice, the heavy handed advice of Les, the Les character in the book. There were some really big movies that I was on a short list for, auditioned for, was pinned for. And then I had to call my agent and be like, you know what? I actually don't want. I don't want to do this. I don't want to continue auditioning for this.

[Alex Cooper]

Why do you think they didn't want

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

you to do it?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, I think it's Just control. Like, the more that I worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked, the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities and my creativity. If I just stayed playing one character for 10 years and I never did anything else, then they know where I am all the time. Basically. I'm not gaining a sense of freedom in travel, traveling all over the world. I'm not meeting new people because they had a handle on who was on set, who the people were that I was working with. They knew how to control my perspectives of all the people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in New York and I'm. And I'm in a new show, if I'm traveling to Greece to film a movie, if I'm. They. There was just no way to control that.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

They also controlled your finances?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay. How did that come to be, and did you have any hesitations when you handed over your finances to these people?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes, I did.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Your gut never goes away. Nope. I. I got married to another group member and. Very Christian tradition. Maybe in other religions, too. I don't know where you merge your finances when you get married. I think there's probably a lot of secular people who also merge their finances when they get married as a sign of unity. And we're doing this together, like, great. And so that's what I did. I just did the dutiful Christian wife thing and merged my accounts. And it never. It didn't occur to me, of course, that I was going to be taken advantage of. It was more just that gut check of, like, this is mine.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Like, I've been working really hard for all of this, and I'm not sure that I should just be randomly adding someone else's name to the account, but it's. I'm going to marry him, so I guess it's okay.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So you end up marrying who was the cult leader's son.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And you talk about him as QB in the book. How would you describe your relationship at first with this man?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Playful and. Easy. We didn't have a lot in common there. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation, but there was. I mean, I kind of run out of options. Like, I couldn't date a non Christian. I couldn't really date anybody outside of the group, or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere outside of that area. So, yeah, it just became this sort of arranged situation.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Can you explain the concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority in relationships?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. Super typical in many Christian Communities, this idea that the man is the spiritual authority in a household. So spiritual authority would be. I think, as far as I understood it in the group, it was. The man basically gets the last word on everything, and he gets the final say. And you really are not allowed to question him. You can't question his decisions. You can't know about deep, intimate things in his life. He has to go to other men for that. But he's responsible for you, and he's supposed to know all the deep, intimate things about your life. That's how it was presented to me, but not in those words. Otherwise, I would have been like, y' all crazy.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Let me clarify, Alex. That's not how it was presented.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It was a way better way that they talked about it. You saved yourself for marriage, but ultimately you write about having no sexual desire for your husband at the time. How did this impact the way you understood sex?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It was so difficult. I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do it. I can only come from my Western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things. But for me, based on my upbringing, and I was really, like I said, I was boy crazy. Like, I had a crazy sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't have sex until I was married. It felt like this promise that I had been given as a good evangelical was a big crock. Like, what the heck? I thought, if I save myself from marriage, then the promise is amazing sex and super deep intimacy, and nothing's ever as good. And it's just like, the best thing ever. God created sex, and it's just gonna be the best thing ever. And then we have sex, and it's like, why do I feel so sad? Why. Why is this not. I don't feel more connected to you. I feel farther away from you. I. It's. It wasn't. And. And I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving myself for marriage. It was just that I married the wrong person. I mean, that also is hard to say, because an amazing daughter, and so is anything wrong. Like, here I am hopefully able to help a lot of people. So it's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong, but in the moment, I definitely felt like, oh, no, this can't be it. This is bad.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

When you realized that, obviously, I know you wrote about in the book, which was very sad about this schedule that was essentially implemented into your relationship. Can you talk about that?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's so wild to even just hear you say that. That it's sad because I haven't talked to a lot of people about that. I wrote it and just was like, okay, I wrote it. Move on. Keep going. That I. To clarify, Daddy gang.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

That it was. I didn't have this attraction. I didn't have the drive, really, ever. We just weren't connected. We weren't the right people for each other. And so.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule basically of like, here's how you can. You just have to do it. Just do it. This is your duty. This is your job as a wife. Your emotions will fall in line. If you do it enough, then eventually you will find a way to enjoy it. You will find a way to feel connected. And, you know, it's. At that point, you're like, again, the things that you hear. If you heard it right away, you'd be like, this shit's crazy. I'm out. But when you're that far down the line and you have so much at stake, and now I'm in a marriage, and now I'm. I'm tied up with. And I have no other friends outside of this group, and I've. I've made a commitment, and I take marriage seriously, and I made a promise before God, like, this is something I really want to figure out, how to make it work. So I hated it, But I was like, okay, if this is what I'm supposed to do, I will just. I'll just make sure that it's happening every. You know. Well, he was back and forth between the Pacific Northwest and Wilmington a lot, so the schedule had more to do with when he was in town. But, yeah, it was.

[Alex Cooper]

It.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It was a routine that we. That I had to participate in in order to keep the peace in my marriage.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

When he would come into town, would

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

you like, oh, my God. My God. Like, I just. My stomach dropped every single time. In fact, it really affected my relationships afterwards. Like other boyfriends that I would have when I had to go pick them up from the airport. I had so much PTSD from showing up at the airport to see him, knowing that I was gonna have to start this sex schedule for the next, like, two weeks or three weeks or whatever. And it's so sad because he, like, poor guy, like, never had a shot, was raised by this narcissist. He's. He's thrust into a marriage with a girl. That's not right for him. He's Doing the best that he can. He's been fed all these lies about men and machismo and warriors and all this shit that, like, he was raised in that. So it was just a mess all around.

[Alex Cooper]

No, it just makes me really.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes, it is sad. Joy, it is sad to hear you because I think a lot of women can relate to that, of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace. That is the way to go. And it's so frustrating because a lot of people, unless you're involved in something, don't understand how to break the cycle. Because a lot of times I think as women, we're just taught, like, it's better to just appease the situation and just, like, not cause a problem, rather than speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of it. Because that could lead to violence, which you write about in the book. There's so many things that can come from going against the grain, so sometimes you just fall in line.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's exactly what you were talking about with your Paris story, by the way. Like, that's the same thing that, like, I'm stuck in the situation. I just wanna. How do I make it just go away? Just get it over with. It'll be done. Maybe this will help. Maybe this will be the thing that brings us together.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It's.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's a reasonable thing to assume because there are so many marriage therapists out there who will tell you when they're looking at a couple who's been married for 25 years and they're not interested in each other anymore, they're like, listen, you have to go through the motions sometimes because it'll help you remember who you were together a long time ago. It's not crazy advice. It's just crazy advice in that circumstance.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yes. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. That's a good one. At this time, also, I wanted to just, like, kind of of talk about the juxtaposition of, like, we have Haley and Nathan being this it couple on television. Did you ever catch yourself, like, loving your TV marriage and almost like, using that as a form of escapism from your real marriage?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Oh, for sure I did, yes. And. And only in the moments when the cameras are rolling. And so it worked with the storyline. I mean, Nathan, Haley had great chemistry, and so I. I leaned into it, but I thank God James and I were able to really maintain a totally professional relationship. Like, I just never. I always sort of saw him in real life as a brotherly figure, and he was lovely. So we never crossed that boundary. And I Never had to worry about having feelings for, like, that would have been really, really difficult.

[Alex Cooper]

But no, but I just knew also,

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

like, because of the controlling aspect of this cult, like, were they okay with your, like, having even just like an on screen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this co star? Like, how did that go?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he, he hated it. But he also wanted me to quit acting so I would stop making out with other guys. There you go.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah, there you go.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, so as you're.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

We're kind of getting towards like now like the big moment where you're going to realize you need to leave. But I want to talk about. And I know, I love that you mentioned this earlier, there is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time. But something so beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yes.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And that you write about so beautifully of like, she's your everything. And so you did get something incredible out of. Of such a horrific experience for those 10 years when you had this child with your husband. Like, had you guys talked about wanting

[Alex Cooper]

to start a family together?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

He wanted to. I wasn't ready because I was miserable. And it just took a long time. I mean, it took long enough for me to get to a place where I felt like, okay, we're happy enough. Like, we're friendly enough. It seems like we're on a pretty good track, so let's just. I think we're ready now. I didn't know when you're supposed to have a baby or not supposed to or I didn't know what to do, but I knew that I was

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

not

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

in misery and I. And I wanted. I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a baby. I always wanted to be a mom.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

But I didn't want to do it in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil. And that took about six years to get to that point.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So you talk about your onset of One Tree Hill. Someone's like, are you in a cult?

[Alex Cooper]

You're like, no, you don't get it.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Take me to the moment that it did click for you. Oh, this is not one big happy family. This, this is a cult.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah. When did you realize it was after the show, unfortunately. It had just ended in November, I believe I was in LA in February in pilot season. And I mean, there's no auditioning up in the Pacific Northwest. It wasn't a life that I was realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance. And the Only income that we had and, and all the money was gone at that point. So. Which I didn't totally know, but they knew. So I think that's probably why my ex and his dad were like, yeah, maybe you should get an apartment in la.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Maybe time to get back on set. Let's get you a job.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

So I, yeah, we were in LA and I had been in therapy. I felt more like I would like to talk with someone about all of the misery that I'm experiencing and I would like that person to be outside of them, this family. And as I did that, the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries. And because my ex husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist was addressing with me was, hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you, around you. This, this is not okay on a routine basis. Yeah, absolutely. And so I started to implement boundaries. And I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative perspectives. My therapist, I remember probably two months after that was like, are we ready to call it a cult yet? Which was brave of her. And I, I was like, no, like I would not be that stupid. Like, no, that is not me. Guess what? Me. Yep, she was right. It took, it took a minute though it like it maybe I was very uncomfortable with it and I, I had to, to really sit with that for a while. But once it, once I once she said that and all the pieces really started to like lock into place, it became clear that it was really unhealthy.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I think something really beautiful also that you're talking about again to anyone in a situation similar with these themes of essentially being isolated to then be abused and manipulated is, is the minute you have someone who doesn't want you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control, that is the biggest red flag because you just getting a little bit of an opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with you and help you set boundaries, which every single human being should have boundaries in their life with other humans. And you're seeing this like it was such an opportunity for you again to grow and to recognize like what you didn't want in life, but that completely threw threatens your ex husband's ability to control you. And so I think that for people listening, I hope you can take it. If like, if you feel like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most, that is your sign that you are in an abusive situation, they need. They can only control you if you are alone with them. Of course, you can go to work and you can have friends, but you know that there's a different level of going to work. And. And when's the last time you actually had a girl's night and he didn't have tabs on you? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like it. It's so quick that it flips, because like I said to you earlier, like, oh, so you were going to work. Like, you can look like you're living a very normal life. It's just inside of you. You have these guardrails that you know that you can't go outside of, and it's really difficult to get away from that because you become conditioned.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, yeah. You think that you're. You think that you're not alone, but the more you. But your gut is telling you, you feel like you're completely isolated.

[Alex Cooper]

Can you share with us?

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And I know we talked about this earlier, but coming back to, like, the process of leaving and untangling your life from these people in this cult, like, what was that experience like? Because again, we talked about how it's terrifying, and then. What was your experience?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It was terrifying. It was my only friends, so I thought, suddenly turned on me, and they were showing up at my house to, you know, for custody exchanges, like, trying to intimidate me and, like, flanking my ex on either side, like goons just ready to watch me or ready to, you know, film me doing, like, to have your best friends who you've shared your most vulnerable intimate secrets with, suddenly turn around and like, overnight, just. That's it. If you're not with us, you're against us. If you're not part of us, you're the enemy. And to be treated like an enemy is from someone who you've been very, very close with. All of a sudden, no conversation. No. There just was no willingness to see. Because the stakes are so high for them, too, you know, like, it's understandable objectively.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

But you go into this custody battle and. And you write about something I thought was really interesting about. Can you talk to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you, explaining this cult experience to them.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

This is. This is one of the most frustrating things about all of it, because I began to realize how broken the family court system is in this country. The saying is, no bruise, no case. If you don't have a physical altercation with someone, they don't consider it abuse in the Court. Because how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse, abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse. I mean, that's. That's the hardest one too, because the courts are like, I don't want to touch anything religious, church and state. Like, no.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Yeah.

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Alex Cooper]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Okay?

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

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[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I want to ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the, like, exploitiveness of this dynamic and the abuse of, like, through the custody battle, you write about how you had to spend so much money in court, like, around the number. Can you share, like, how much these people took from you financially?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, when I was in the group they took $2 million from me. When I got out, I had about 250 left, which is not nothing. I mean, that's a significant amount of money. But the court costs in total were about 350. 350,000. And that was. So I left the group with money in the bank that was already committed to other things, like my mortgage,

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

which

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I ended up having to do a short sale on, like, the irs, like, so many unpaid bills. And there were lawsuits I didn't know about that I had to. I mean, it was absolute financial abuse. It was just a total mess.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So everything you basically made from One

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Tree Hill just gone. And another relatable thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships is the financial tie that they're like, I can't leave because what am I gonna do? Who's gonna pay for my kids? Who's gonna pay for the groceries? A lot of them don't have a skill because they've been in a controlled environment for so long. So they're like, I keep. What kind of job am I going to get? The guy controls all the money. And I. I was going to say my advice would be get out anyway and just trust that it's going to be okay. But that's a really cheap thing to say because I'm not. I don't know every single person's situation. But I hate. I guess the heart behind what I am meaning is that. That I hate for any woman, anyone, to be stuck in a situation because of finances. And I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month's rent is coming from. And I learned a lot in that time. I grew a lot. And God did always show up for me. Like, something always worked out every month. Month. Yeah, it's beautiful. So I can't, you know, like, I. I'm not here to give advice, but I can tell what happened for me.

[Alex Cooper]

But I.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

And I appreciate the sentiment of it is like, leaving something bad. Like, you will find something. I believe in the world, like, you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like that. As we're kind of like, finishing this conversation, I feel like obviously I. I want everyone to go read your book and. And there's so much in it that is so even more detailing of, like, how someone can get into the situation. Because I am so understanding that at face value, someone can roll their eyes and be like, what do you mean? You were in a cult? Like, you asked for this. Like, Again. And that's why someone needs to listen to this episode. And then they'll be like, okay, wait, nevermind. That's fucking crazy. But can you share? Like, what do you think the biggest misconception people have about culture cults is?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

It's the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't think I was in one. Because I was like, no, cults are crazy people and they all live together in some weird big house and they all wear the same thing and they're, they're all sleeping with the leader and they're all, you know, he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're doing all kinds of crazy shit and drinking weird things and they don't interact with the rest of the world. Like it's everything that you think of from a 1970s flower child, you know, Bizarro world cult. And we've come a long way because there is no real definition of a cult. You can't even use it in court. The word cult, it's not viable. You have to say high demand group.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Wow, I didn't know that.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah, there's no legal definition of cult. Like, Like Catholicism, I guess, is a cult. Christianity, Buddhism, soul cycle, like I said before, like, I love soul cycle, by the way.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I know.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I'm just saying. I know some people get real hyped on it. So

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

nobody get what you're saying.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

There's no definition. So it's like we've used it as this slang for things that are super weird.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

That is so helpful because I agree. I think people picture like cloaks and like this like voodoo shit and it's like, no, it's the Illuminati and all these things. Yeah. You're on set of One Tree Hill. We're all watching you and it's all going down. Like it is just. You can get into a situation that you don't even know what it is because it's presenting at first as this loving person that's wanting to just be your friend and help you out.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Yeah.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

So you get out. And now I'm curious, kind of like the aftermath of. How has your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now ability to trust people?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Brilliant question. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, it's, it's really difficult. I. I joke about it a lot. I'm like, I don't trust anybody, you know, But I don't. I was just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people. That's not how we're supposed to live. I don't. I really believe that's not how we're supposed to live. I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the benefit of the doubt, but maybe not credit, if that makes sense. Like, you don't. You don't get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit card of, like, friend. Here's the friendship credit card. Swipe it whenever you want. Do whatever you want with it. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt if I see something weird or like, every. That's been the hardest part to navigate. Alex is just. Who's just normal and has weird baggage. Like, hello, every single human. Yeah, when is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I. I just can't engage with? Yeah, when is the baggage something that triggers me? But maybe I can learn something and maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through. Yeah, I don't. It's a case by case basis.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

I was gonna say, like, I was going to ask you, how do you learn to trust yourself again? But I feel like it's kind of the same.

[Alex Cooper]

Same.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It's in the same vein of like, you're. You're gonna learn to trust yourself as you're going to trust other people. And when you're feeling something that doesn't make you feel good about that person, you're not trusting them as much. You then have to turn inward and be like, is this because of my trauma or is this because this person is actually showing something that is pushing my boundaries and making me uncomfortable? And you have to be able to discern the two.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

And you're not always going to get it right if you're. You're not. You're just gonna have to. To at some point, let go and trust.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

My last question is, like, what do you ultimately hope people take away from reading your book?

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Well, I hope they never join a cult.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

No daddy gang, no cult.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

I. I just. I hope people feel like they're not alone. I've said that before. Like, I really. I really want people to feel like their own shame, their own mistakes are faceable, that there's hope and that shame. Like, please don't live in shame. Don't let it keep you closed off and shut down and not talk about things. You have to let it out. You have to let it out of your body. It's the only way to actually find hope and move forward. So I really hope that that's an alleviating thing for people.

[Alex Cooper]

It is.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

It's more than alleviating. It is extremely encouraging and hopeful. I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me. I can already feel just how impactful this is going to be. And I commend you for writing this book. I think it's like, so incredible of you to be able to like, pen to paper, put down something that consumed your life for 10 years. And I think a lot of, a lot of people are going to find not only, like, comfort in it, but feel very connected to you. And I think you have, like a very incredible story, but just you as a human being, like, sitting with you. I'm like, you're a very inspiring person and I'm so excited to see what you continue to do. Like, thank you for taking the time. It was literally an honor.

[Guest (Bethany Joy Lenz)]

Thank you, Alex. Well, I, I think you're inspiring too. I really, I really do. I think you're so smart and so interesting. I love the way that you just, that you just embrace life and run, kind of run freely, like open. Your openness is really, really engaging and inviting and I want more of it in my life. So I'm really grateful I got to spend some time with you today.

[Bethany Joy Lenz]

Thank. You.

[Alex Cooper]

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