Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth

Summary

Podcast Summary: Call Her Daddy

Episode Title: Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth
Host: Alex Cooper
Guest: Emmy Rossum
Date: July 8, 2026

Episode Overview

In a heartfelt and deeply candid conversation, Emmy Rossum joins Alex Cooper on Call Her Daddy, diving into her multifaceted life and career. They discuss Emmy’s transformative years as Fiona Gallagher on Shameless, her experience with motherhood and infertility, the journey of self-worth, and her crusade for pay equity in Hollywood. Expect an honest exploration of childhood, intimacy, relationships, female rage, and Emmy's bold new projects.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Emmy’s New York Roots, Basketball Fandom & The Knicks

• Emmy’s passion for the Knicks is front and center. She shares that her love for basketball traces back to her childhood, citing how the sport’s fast pace and visible emotion hooked her early on.
  • "I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Starks growing up... I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game." (Emmy Rossum, [02:27])
• Memorable Story: When the Knicks won, Emmy was in Rhode Island, celebrating with crew members and strangers who became sudden Knicks fans—even crying during the game and seeing a teaser for her own show air during the broadcast. ([03:37])

Motherhood: Birth, PCOS, and IVF

• Emmy shares her chaotic but comic story about being in labor during a Knicks game, refusing to leave for the hospital until the buzzer.
  • “I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor... as I’m watching the Knicks game.” (Emmy Rossum, [05:35])
• Candid talk on pregnancy struggle: Emmy reveals her diagnosis with PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome), recounting her journey through failed attempts at natural conception and IUI, and eventually a successful IVF cycle.
  • “I, they woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs… Which was trippy and bizarre.” (Emmy Rossum, [09:22])
• Postpartum Vulnerability: Emmy discusses the anxiety and intrusive thoughts she faced after giving birth, pulling back the curtain on the less glamorous side of new motherhood.
  • "Certainly I was overtaken by the feeling of vulnerability... the postpartum anxiety for me was very, very rough." (Emmy Rossum, [08:28])

Childhood and Relationship with Her Mother

• Raised by a single, adventurous mother—Cheryl—Emmy paints a vivid picture of her upbringing in NYC, marked by independence, capability, and acts of service.
  • “My mom was… hanging out of a helicopter, like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig.” (Emmy Rossum, [15:01])
• Memorable Lesson: Cheryl uses tough-love to teach Emmy about survival, tossing Emmy’s beloved blanket and stuffed animal out the window to make a point about needing to work. ([18:06])
• Emmy reflects on the absence of her father, the closeness (and frictions) with her mom, and the feeling of wanting to be worthy of her mother’s legacy—contrasting it with her intention that her own daughter never has to “do anything to be worthy of being my daughter.” ([20:21])

Early Career: Opera, Acting, and Perfectionism

• Emmy’s path to performance begins in the Met’s children’s chorus, thanks to a perceptive music teacher. At 11 she lands her first TV gig, and at 17, stars in The Phantom of the Opera.
  • “The second I walked into the opera, it was like I had found my people, my place.” (Emmy Rossum, [23:09])
• Natural drive, early ambition, and rigor: She credits the demands of opera and her Virgo perfectionism for shaping her as an artist.
• Chasing fear in art: Emmy is drawn to roles that terrify her, explaining the difference between fear in life (avoid it) versus art (run toward it).
  • “In art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it because that says there’s something there for you…” (Emmy Rossum, [25:46])

Shameless: The Role of a Lifetime

• Emmy discusses the immediate resonance she felt with Fiona Gallagher—drawn by the script’s rawness, themes of survival, and unbreakable family.
  • “It was unlike anything I had done before… There was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine.” (Emmy Rossum, [26:45])
• She shares challenges on set, such as long days, lack of production luxuries (no sides, no last looks), which she relished as training and camaraderie.
  • “We didn’t have sides. We didn’t have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years…” (Emmy Rossum, [31:56])
• Behind-the-scenes Memories: Recounts intense scenes, off-camera friendships (especially with Jeremy Allen White/Lip), and pranks (smelly fridge, makeshift sledding during snowstorms).
• Fiona’s Most Difficult Moment: The storyline where Fiona’s carelessness harms Liam—terrifying and challenging to play.
  • “I think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around… I cared about Fiona. Even though it made for really good drama.” (Emmy Rossum, [38:03])

Fighting for Pay Equity in Hollywood

• Emmy details her journey demanding equal pay with co-star William H. Macy, the strategy her lawyers took, the emotional turmoil, and shock when the story hit the press.
  • “It’s always scary asking for what you think you’re worth… You have to take up space in the room.” (Emmy Rossum, [40:49])
  • “People seemed… quite surprised that I wasn’t already being paid equal. And it was resolved within a day.” ([44:00], [44:49])
• Larger Impact: Encounters women in everyday life who drew courage from the story to ask for raises.
• Advice to Women: “Practice it at home… Practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life…” (Emmy Rossum, [49:18])
• Debunks the rumor she left Shameless to have children—she left to produce her own show, encouraged by showrunner John Wells. ([50:22])

Relationships, Intensity, and Growth

• Emmy reflects on her history of seeking intense partners, recounts a romance that included a date at Versailles, and speaks candidly about a youthful, impulsive first marriage that ended quickly.
  • “[Versailles Guy] shut down the Palace of Versailles and took me on a date there.” (Emmy Rossum, [54:02])
  • “You know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head? Well, I heard it, and I ignored it.” (On getting married at 21, [58:19])
• Her mother’s unwavering support—mobilizing for Emmy during breakup and divorce.
• Meeting Her Husband (director Sam Esmail): Their first meeting includes a heartfelt letter (which Emmy reads on air), slow-burning admiration, eventual confessions of love, and now, a long, stable marriage.
  • “I had spent so long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me. When I realized maybe what I’m after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand.” (Emmy Rossum, [68:22])
  • “We kissed, and we’ve basically… we broke the couch. And that was 14 years ago.” (Emmy Rossum, [71:24])

Family, Healing, and Fatherhood

• Emmy discusses her complicated relationship (and absence) of her father, the impact of feeling “unloved,” and the healing she experiences watching her husband as a devoted father to their children.
  • “My husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I’ve really ever wanted.” (Emmy Rossum, [72:15])
• Shares the “we don’t cut our spaghetti guy” story about first meeting her father at age four; later realizes he never really showed interest as a parent, but finds peace seeing her daughter receive love she didn’t have. ([73:59], [75:46])

Intimacy, Communication & Motherhood’s Lessons

• Emmy discusses growing into her ability to articulate needs in intimacy; acknowledges how shame and silence used to inhibit her, but maturity, supportive partnership, and especially pregnancy (with surging hormones!) propelled her into greater self-expression.
  • “I felt shame about expressing desire. I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted, about using the words, but you have to tell somebody what you want.” (Emmy Rossum, [76:22])
• Motherhood and Ambition: Emmy shares the “pancake story”—simultaneously trying to be a supermom and working actor, injuring herself in the process, as a metaphor for modern working mothers and the pressure to do it all.
  • “My daughter got the pancakes. And at the end of the day, I was like, something's gotta change.” (Emmy Rossum, [83:05])
• Her insight: Sometimes, women need to feel permission to do less.

New Project: Furious and Exploring Female Rage

• Emmy’s production company’s new show, Furious, is about an ex-NYPD detective/FBI agent, grappling with trauma, violence, and vengeance. Emmy is both star and executive producer.
• The show examines female fury, moral ambiguity, trauma, and justice—inspired by the Greek goddesses of vengeance.
  • “What happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf… Who do you call when your partner is hurting you and is also in law enforcement?” (Emmy Rossum, [87:02])
• Emmy pushed to find a character as deep as Fiona, and calls the show's exploration of female rage "fertile ground."
  • “I think women have a lot to be furious about… sometimes, as we see with these characters, our power does come from being underestimated.” (Emmy Rossum, [89:07])
• She values stories that live in the gray, aiming to challenge shame and societal boundaries for women in all her future work.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |---|---|---| | [02:27] | “I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Starks... I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game.” | Emmy Rossum | | [05:35] | “I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor... as I’m watching the Knicks game.” | Emmy Rossum | | [09:22] | “They woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs… Which was trippy and bizarre.” | Emmy Rossum | | [15:01] | “My mom was… hanging out of a helicopter, like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig.” | Emmy Rossum | | [18:18] | [on mother's lesson] “She threw it out the window.” | Emmy Rossum | | [20:21] | “I wanted to be worthy of being my mother's daughter…But for my daughter, she doesn’t have to do anything to be worthy of being my daughter.” | Emmy Rossum | | [25:46] | “In art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it because that says there’s something there for you…” | Emmy Rossum | | [26:45] | “It was unlike anything I had done before… There was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine.” | Emmy Rossum | | [38:03] | “I think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around... Even though it made for really good drama.” | Emmy Rossum | | [44:49] | “People seemed… quite surprised that I wasn’t already being paid equal. And it was resolved within a day.” | Emmy Rossum | | [49:18] | “Practice it at home… Practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life…” | Emmy Rossum | | [54:02] | “He shut down the Palace of Versailles and took me on a date there.” | Emmy Rossum | | [68:22] | “When I realized maybe what I'm after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand.” | Emmy Rossum | | [72:15] | “My husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted.” | Emmy Rossum | | [76:22] | “I felt shame about expressing desire… you have to tell somebody what you want.” | Emmy Rossum | | [83:05] | “My daughter got the pancakes. And at the end of the day, I was like, something’s gotta change.” | Emmy Rossum | | [89:07] | “I think women have a lot to be furious about… our power does come from being underestimated.” | Emmy Rossum |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• NBA/Basketball Fandom & Motherhood (including labor during Knicks game): [02:27] – [08:07]
• Infertility, PCOS and IVF: [08:28] – [11:54]
• Single Mother Upbringing & Childhood Lessons: [15:01] – [21:06]
• Early Career / Opera & Acting: [23:09] – [25:46]
• Shameless, Character Building, Memories, and Set Dynamics: [26:45] – [39:01]
• Pay Equity Negotiations: [40:49] – [49:18]
• Relationships: Intensity, First Marriage, Mother’s Support: [51:12] – [63:40]
• Meeting/Marrying Husband Sam Esmail: [64:33] – [71:36]
• Absent Father & Healing through Family: [72:15] – [75:46]
• Intimacy, Communication, and Self-Advocacy: [76:22] – [77:33]
• Motherhood, Pancake Story, Doing Less: [79:12] – [84:38]
• New Project: Furious, Female Rage, and Story Themes: [85:33] – [91:53]

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Themes & Tone

• Candid, humorous, and deeply vulnerable.
• Feminist undertone: Advocating for women’s agency and voice in work, relationships, motherhood, and art.
• Emmy’s voice: Mix of self-deprecating New Yorker, wise big sister, meticulous artist, and hilariously honest mom.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich journey through Emmy Rossum’s life: from overcoming barriers as a child of a single mother, to transforming the television landscape as Fiona Gallagher, to championing pay equity and balancing ambition, family, and self-worth. Emmy’s commitment to telling real, complex women’s stories—on screen and behind the scenes—rings throughout, making this a must-listen for anyone navigating work, identity, or simply seeking encouragement that “you don’t have to do anything to be worthy.”

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For listeners who missed the episode: expect inspiration, laughter, practical wisdom, and the sense that you’re in on an intimate, real-life girl chat with one of Hollywood’s most compelling voices.

Transcript

[Alex Cooper]

Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Sephora. From less is more days to full glam routines, everything you need for all things beauty is at Sephora. Yep, Sephora is where you will find the hottest, newest products you won't find anywhere else. The ones popping up in every get ready with me. Think summery fragrances like Kayali eden plush pear 23 eau de parfum Next level Makeup. The skincare that keeps you glowing like it's your full time job. Shop the newest, hottest beauty only at Sephora. Daddy Gang. Today's episode is brought to you by Sour Patch Kids. There is a reason they have been one of my favorite candies literally forever. They are soft, they are chewy, and they have that classic sour then sweet flavor. You get that little sour kick at first and then, oh, it's sweet right after. Honestly, they're just fun and I feel like we could use a little bit more of that. If you're looking for something that has that balance of sour and sweet, Sour Patch Kids, our are always a solid option. Lean into your mischievous side with Sour Patch Kids. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Macy's. Guys, we are officially kind of nearing the second half of summer and there's a certain feeling I feel like that arrives in July. Right? Summer is still here, but you can feel the season beginning to shift. And before it slips away, Macy's is here to help you make the most of every last summer moment. Whether it's a spontaneous getaway or an end of summer gathering, Macy's has everything you need in one place. If you're already thinking ahead, discuss endeavor back to school, back to college. Fall fashion and beauty essentials. To ease into the next season on your own terms, shop now in store or@macy's.com. what is up, Daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Emmy Rossum. Welcome to Call Her Daddy.

[Emmy Rossum]

Thank you.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, we have so much to talk about today. You have accomplished so much in your career. You got into the industry as a kid. You spent nearly a decade of your life playing the fierce Fiona Gallagher that we all know and love on Shameless. And you have fought for pay equity in Hollywood. So I am like, girl, we have a lot to talk about today.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm so happy to meet you.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Me too.

[Alex Cooper]

The shirt. Let's start with the shirt because I know you're a true New Yorker.

[Emmy Rossum]

Because we're the championship.

[Alex Cooper]

Are you still clearly riding the high?

[Emmy Rossum]

It's never gonna end.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

I've been waiting for this Since I'm like 6 or 7 years old, I became obsessed with basketball. I don't know why. I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Starks growing up. During that playoff run, I remember I wrote in my diary, he's so fiery on the court and I just identify with him. I see myself in him. And I love basketball because it moves really fast and you can see all the players faces really, really well. And I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game. Like football, I'm too far away, I can't see their faces. Hockey, I can't see their faces. Tennis, I like for the same reason. It moves fast. I can see them. I'm with them, I'm with the narrative. Like what is going on? They're trash talk each other. I can see it.

[Alex Cooper]

You want to see the sweat, but

[Emmy Rossum]

I need to see the emotion. I want to see the drive.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I love it.

[Emmy Rossum]

I get so invested.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I need it. I love it.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay. Where were you when the Knicks won?

[Emmy Rossum]

I was in Rhode island with a bunch of actors and crew. I just finished a movie there and so we kind of commandeered this bar. The bar was actually. I was like, hey, I'm looking for a place to watch the game. And they were like, oh yeah, that's great. We're actually having a thing on the roof to watch the game. I was like, amazing. So then I got up there and there was all these like World cup flags. And I was like, what are we gonna turn on the Knicks?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And they were like, what game are you talking about? And I was like, the only game to care about right now, like the

[Alex Cooper]

New Yorker starts coming out of you, you're like panicked.

[Emmy Rossum]

And it turned out that there was actually nobody there to watch the World Cup. So they turned it into a Knicks playoff game. And then a wedding ended up coming up and they out to be Knicks fans. I cried.

[Alex Cooper]

So you had a whole night?

[Emmy Rossum]

I had a whole night because the first teaser for my show got like a 15 second spot and I only

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

heard about it a couple hours before the game and I was losing it.

[Alex Cooper]

You're like, if there's ever been a moment that I am getting promo, it's right here, right now that I actually care about the most.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I was like, if we win tonight and my show has a promo on it, like I can just, I can just die happy.

[Alex Cooper]

I did want to ask you when I was stalking you. There is an Instagram post that you shared five years ago when the Knicks Were also in the playoffs.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Oh, yes.

[Alex Cooper]

And you were in labor at the time?

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

But it feels like there's a bit of, like, a chaotic story where, like, are you putting basketball before giving birth? Like, can you tell the story what happened?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I was pregnant with my daughter, and

[Emmy Rossum]

I knew that I was due, and I was very much in denial that I was in labor. The first time. I remember I, like, gave my husband a haircut. I was cleaning the house. I ordered some Thai food, and I

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

had some contractions, but, like, was like, kind of like, meh. It's probably fine.

[Emmy Rossum]

I was definitely scared of childbirth. My mother's mother had died in childbirth. So that narrative was very in the back of my head or my psyche somewhere. But what was in the front of my psyche was I was not going to go into labor until after the Knicks game. And so I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor.

[Alex Cooper]

As you're watching the Knicks.

[Emmy Rossum]

As I'm watching the Knicks game. And in this photo, my mom is next to me on the couch being like, I really think you should just, like, go get the epidural. And I was like, nope, I'm gonna watch this game, and I'll go when I'm fully dilated.

[Alex Cooper]

And then you, what you call an Uber, and you're, like, in labor.

[Emmy Rossum]

I actually labored the whole night before I went to the hospital in the morning, my contractions never got any closer together than, like, eight minutes, so I didn't think I was very close. And I was like, I don't think I can do, like, do much more of this. And then finally, yeah, I woke my husband up, and I was like, we gotta call a new guy. And he was like, should I get the playlist ready? And I was like, I think I don't. I don't want the playlist anymore.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Like, you would have played the labor playlist? Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, wow.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I get, like, the playlist ready. And I was like, I am ill. I don't want the playlist anymore. I love you so much. Is it, like, a thing?

[Alex Cooper]

Like, do I need a labor playlist?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Maybe.

[Alex Cooper]

What kind of music do you have on it?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

There was, like, a lot of, like,

[Alex Cooper]

hip hop, R and B. Oh, okay. So not soothing.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I don't think we knew.

[Alex Cooper]

We were like Kendrick Lamar going. I'm like, I feel like I would be thinking more of, like. Like, soft, like, meditation.

[Emmy Rossum]

But you're like, we were not. We were not. Yes.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

His contribution to the labor was his playlist. You're vibing out, which Went unused because we. We took the Uber to the hospital.

[Emmy Rossum]

And I remember, I was like, sir, like, you really. I feel like you really gotta. You gotta step on it.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And we were, like, driving up Park Avenue in the city, and he, like,

[Emmy Rossum]

the light would turn, like, start to turn yellow, and he would.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And I would, like, go into another contraction.

[Alex Cooper]

Sir, do you want five stars? He's like, your Uber rating is going down. You're about to have a baby in my backseat.

[Emmy Rossum]

I know. And that. That was the fear. I was like, I just don't want to have this baby in the backseat. But then I got to the hospital, and you're fine. And they were like, my water still hadn't broken. And they were like, oh, you're 8 centimeters dilated. Like, don't sneeze. Like, this baby's going to fall out of you.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, what was it like the first moment you met your daughter?

[Emmy Rossum]

Wow. I held her, and I have a video of the first moment, and I said, oh, my God, that's a person.

[Alex Cooper]

And obviously, I've heard people say, like. And then you're staring at your child, and you're like, oh, my God, like, this is on us now.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

Like, we're.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

They're.

[Alex Cooper]

We're allowed to leave the hospital with this beautiful thing, but, like, what do we do? Did you have any of that feeling?

[Emmy Rossum]

Certainly I was overtaken by the feeling of vulnerability. Just that this thing that you've been able to keep safe inside of you for so long is now outside of you, and it's so vulnerable, and anything could happen to it. Anything could hurt it. The postpartum anxiety for me was very, very rough. Like, very intense, intrusive thoughts. And I had had a kind of crazy journey to get pregnant where I have pcos. So I was. Had very, very debilitating ovarian cysts throughout my 20s and tried to get pregnant naturally. It didn't happen. Tried iui, didn't happen. And then tried ivf, and it happened in a big way. I only did one harvest, but a kind of side effect of PCOS is that you can kind of become a super responder. So I, I, they woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs. Yeah. Which was trippy and bizarre. And I thought I'd maybe have 12.

[Alex Cooper]

Of course, you're right.

[Emmy Rossum]

And they were like. And we fertilized them all. And I was like, what? Yeah. So it had been a long journey to get to meet my daughter. And then when I finally had,

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

it

[Emmy Rossum]

was also towards the end of COVID So I had been able to keep the pregnancy private the whole time, which is something I know you desperately wanted, too.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

It is.

[Alex Cooper]

And I also love that, like, I get to sit here and talk with you about it. And I know that so many women who have PCOS or, you know, did IVF are going to be, like, hanging on to every word that you're saying right now, because I think what is so unique about women's experiences is they are so unique, and no one is the same. Like you saying that you got 72A. I was like, yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

And then the offshoot of that was, after you do ivf, they tell you to monitor your weight in the next couple days to see if you put on any water that you know. And I gained, like, 14 pounds in two days. And I was like, something's wrong here. So I called the doctor, and I just eaten, like, a big, fat cheeseburger. And I was like, I don't know. Like, I feel like a plump grape. Something's wrong. And so I went back in, and I'd gone into hyperstim, so they had to extract the fluid, which. Modern medicine is incredible. But this. This procedure was bizarre and kind of barbaric. I went in, and they were like, have you eaten today? Because we could do Twilight. And I was like, I've eaten a huge cheeseburger. And they said, okay, well, we're gonna have to extract this fluid. And then they took out an enormous Diet Coke bottle and just, like, took the fluid out right into the Diet Coke. Empty Diet Coke bottle.

[Alex Cooper]

You're like.

[Emmy Rossum]

And I was like, this is.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

This is.

[Emmy Rossum]

Okay, I guess this is what we do.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I know.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm like, oh, is there not, like, a normal tube that looks a little more like medical?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Right.

[Alex Cooper]

Anything other than, like, oh, wow.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

That's the. Also the fascinating part, because I. I want to go through your whole life, and we're gonna get more into motherhood as we go, because I know you were also raised by a single mother.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

But, like, that's the part of motherhood that's so fascinating, is we. We act like it's such, like a. Oh. And then she, like, had a baby, and it's like, no, no. Like, the actual war that women are up against to even be able to say, and then a baby came, and it actually. There's so much, like, glamorization around, and it acts like it's like, just, like, a normal, casual thing, and it's like, this is so complex. Yeah. And there's so much that goes into it that I had no concept of. And maybe I'm becoming even more aware of it, obviously, because I'm going through it. Yeah, but women are so incredible and it is overwhelming what we have to go through to get to where the standard and the norm feels like it should be.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Emmy Rossum]

My mom was a photographer. She was. My mom is very adventurous. She was a single mom and she met my dad on an airplane and he was not interested in being a dad. He left her when she was pregnant. And so I didn't meet him until I was four. And even then I didn't know he was my dad. But my mom was. My mom is amazing. She's very adventurous. She was a corporate photographer when I was little. She would travel a lot and she would do things like go to Saudi Arabia to do the annual reports for mobile oil. And she would hang out of a helicopter, like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig. She photographed like the making of the atom bomb for our government. She was Steve Jobs personal photographer for many years before I was born. And my mom was just like, hugely impressive and capable in so many ways. Like, we went to Japan and she could like order in Japanese and ask where the bathroom was. We went to France and she like broke out the. The French with the cab driver where they were like, talking about the first World War in France. In French. And I was like, that's like real French. My mom is going to be 80 in January, and she had me when she was 40. And she like, I asked her last week, what are you doing this week, mom? And she was like, my dishwasher is fixed, so I'm going to. It is broken, so I'm going to fix it. And I was like, what do you mean? Do you know how to fix a dishwasher? And she said, no, but I will by Friday. And I called her and she fixed it.

[Alex Cooper]

What a gift to have such a capable, inspiring, intellectual mother. Yeah. As your kind of like North Star to life.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

And watching the world through her eyes is like, it explains a little bit obviously of why you are the way you are. How would you have described your relationship with her when you were young and growing up?

[Emmy Rossum]

We were close, but I certainly felt the absence of my dad. I certainly didn't want my mom to go to work. You know, my kids are three and five now, and sometimes it's hard when you go to work. Sometimes they have big feelings about this one time when I was like four, I think I was like throwing a tantrum, like, don't go to work, don't go to work. And my mom said, okay, do you know what happens if I don't go to work? And I said, what? And she said, we would sleep on the street. And I said, okay. And she said, do you know what it's like to sleep on the street. And I said, shrug. You know, I'm four. I don't know.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

Of course.

[Emmy Rossum]

And she opened the fourth floor window, and she took my pillow and my blankie and my teddy Huggy, who I still sleep with to this day, of course. He is in my hotel room right now. Huggy, Huggy, Huggy.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

He's a polar bear.

[Emmy Rossum]

He's a polar bear.

[Alex Cooper]

Is he a little scary, though?

[Emmy Rossum]

No, he's very hugged on his belly.

[Alex Cooper]

Have you gotten him, like, restitched? A little.

[Emmy Rossum]

He's been so operated on. Frankensteined. But she took all that and she put it out the window, and, like, I remember watching it, like, float down. And that was how she taught me the importance of survival. She threw it out the window.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm picturing there's, like, a little fire escape situ.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, no. Four floors down. Four floors down.

[Alex Cooper]

So then did you walk down and have to go to the street?

[Emmy Rossum]

And we went and got it. And then she went to work.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah. Yes, she did.

[Emmy Rossum]

So I might do things differently now, but we were very, very close. I needed her, I wanted her, but she had to go to work.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

She.

[Emmy Rossum]

She made me understand survival in a very intense way. My mom's not a woman of feelings. She's a woman of, like, her love language is acts of service, and she's quite practical.

[Alex Cooper]

Like, this is what it is. So this is what it is. Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

There you go. Your bedding's in the courtyard if you'd like to sleep there. But also, as I've become a mother, I have found so much forgiveness for my mother, for all the ways in which feelings were not her strong suit. Right. My mom's mom died when she was 13. She grew up in a really traumatic household. She was out of the house by the time she was 15 and went to Barnard College and really made a life for herself as a single woman, as an adventurous single woman. So I know that I'm gonna need forgiveness as a mom, too. And I think as we step into these new chapters of our lives, we are afforded the opportunity to recontextualize the ways in which our parents came up short for us but still love them.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah, I remember I. I read somewhere you had said, like, in the past you wanted to be worthy of being your mother's daughter.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Oh, shit.

[Alex Cooper]

And I was like, oh, that's. That's a good one.

[Emmy Rossum]

I am.

[Alex Cooper]

That's a heavy one.

[Emmy Rossum]

I certainly am.

[Alex Cooper]

And that. But that's like.

[Emmy Rossum]

But for my daughter, she doesn't have to do anything to be worthy of being my daughter.

[Alex Cooper]

Interesting.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah, she's amazing. Like, my mom and I never had a lot of money, but I never felt that as a kid. She never bought herself new underwear. She took care of me. She put me in a private school. Like, everything went to taking care of me and putting and funneling into me. So even though she may have not, you know, been able to be all the things a conventional mother is supposed to be, should be. Although I hate shoulds. She did a lot for me, and I love her very much.

[Alex Cooper]

I was gonna say it's really impressive because talking about, you know, two women living in an apartment together in New

[Emmy Rossum]

York City Till I was 18, one bathroom.

[Alex Cooper]

Like that is one bedroom. I can. I can picture it. And then to know. So you went to one of the most prestigious prep schools in the city. What were you like at school? Like, how would your teachers have described you?

[Emmy Rossum]

It's funny, because I found my old report cards. She gave them to me. She had everything saved from my childhood. And she was like, I want to give these to you. I was really into drama, really into art, really into make believe. And I had a solid group of friends, a very small group of friends from day one. My best friend Dory, Joanna, Pam. From day one, Dory, who is still so my best friend. They're actually all my close friends. But Dory bought the apartment three floors below me so that we can raise our kids together. It's very like Fiona and then Kevin V. The neighbors next door.

[Alex Cooper]

I love it.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I love it.

[Emmy Rossum]

And our kids literally go up and downstairs the backstairs to hang out. And it's like very a little community in our little apartment building. We actually lived across the street from each other and decided it wasn't close enough.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And she sold the apartment and moved into my building when it became available.

[Alex Cooper]

This is like, making every shameless fan so happy right now because I'm just picturing you and like the chaos of going up downstairs and all of you being so close.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, wow.

[Emmy Rossum]

It is amazing.

[Alex Cooper]

And were you an overachiever in school?

[Emmy Rossum]

No, but I never really found my place or my people in school. But it was my second grade music teacher that recommended that I go audition at the opera at the children's chorus. And I did. And that's how I ended up singing at the children's chorus. And I loved it. The second I walked into the opera, it was like I had found my people, my place.

[Alex Cooper]

That's what I was reading. So you were seven years old when you started singing at the Met.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

11. You landed your first TV role. 16. Life changes. You starred in the movie the Phantom of the opera.

[Emmy Rossum]

17.

[Alex Cooper]

17.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Did your mom have any hesitations about you going into this career?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, my mom was an artist, and so being an artist was a noble profession and not a profession that you went into to get rich or famous. Certainly didn't go to the opera to sing there for $10, $20 a night to have that outcome. My mom was very aware that there were dangers and drawbacks to this.

[Alex Cooper]

When you had, you know, I like, mentioned the pressure that you put on yourself to be worthy of your mom, did you bring that mindset into your career at all?

[Emmy Rossum]

I, I, I had a lot of natural drive and ambition to be the best that I could be. And also, there was a lot of rigor that came with being at the opera. You were expected to go on stage, perform, get it right every single time. There was, like, not a lot of leniency for fucking up. And so that really made my own, you know, Virgo perfectionism, like, really kick into high drive. But I felt when I walked out onto stage that that all evaporated. It was so easy for me to share, to feel that I could lose myself in that and that there were people that were sitting there every night experiencing that live with me. It was magic.

[Alex Cooper]

I. You have said that you like to be a little terrified by a role.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

What feelings draw you to that of wanting to be terrified?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, it's different in life, I think. In life, you know, you have that little smoke detector in your head. And like, when you're young, you're like, oh, I think I hear something beeping. Like, maybe the battery needs to be changed. Or like, oh, it's a little hot in here. Like, maybe I should turn on the ac. Like, is that, is that the smell of singeing? I'm sure my neighbor's making cookies. Like, no, bitch, your hair's on fire. Get out of the house.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Right.

[Emmy Rossum]

So in life, when you hear the smoke detector, you have to run from it. But in art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it because that says that there's something there for you, something unexamined in yourself, something that scares you, something that causes you shame. And those are the things that we must examine about ourself, about our, our characters, about our womanhood, about our society. We have to no different than what you do. You're unafraid to look in the places that other people don't want to look.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah, that makes me think about Fiona Gallagher. Like, let's talk about. So your character on Shameless, she was ferocious, she was resilient. She was pretty self destructive at times.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah, Frisky.

[Alex Cooper]

Take me to the moment that you read the script for the first time. Like, what drew you in, in the way that you're kind of talking about right now about Fiona.

[Emmy Rossum]

It was unlike anything I had done before. It was raw. There was sexuality, there was longing and yearning for an absent parent, which is something that hit deep for me. There was kind of like this slightly chaotic environment that was based on survival that also felt very familiar to me. There was deep love and connection and loyalty in that family, and that hit deep for me. And there was a sense that even though they were in an economic depression, they were not depressed. They refused to be. And there was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine. I knew it was my role. I knew it was for me. There's like, sometimes when you read things, you're just drawn to them and you're like, yes, yeah, I volunteer as tribute.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Do you know what I mean?

[Emmy Rossum]

Put me in coach.

[Alex Cooper]

And didn't they at first not feel that way about you?

[Emmy Rossum]

No. I was told that they thought I was too princessy. I had come off mystic river day After Tomorrow, Phantom, Poseidon Adventure. I had walked a lot of red carpets and press tours for those, and I had not displayed that level of rawness in a performance, certainly. But I think only an actor knows what they're capable of, which is why it's so important for all artists to take their careers into their own hands and get into the driver's seat. Because only you know what you have inside.

[Alex Cooper]

I mean, and just like now, knowing, I mean, I was such a fan of the show and I still am. Like, the environment that you were able to create with your character, like, it felt so immersive. Like, when you're watching the show, I'm literally a part of this family. Like, I can't stop watching. And you, you all did such a good job bringing it to life playing this character for almost a decade. Did you discover anything unexpected about yourself in the process?

[Emmy Rossum]

I had always wanted a big family that was so emotional for me to, like, walk in and firstly make a pilot. You never know if it's going to go. But before we made the pilot, they gave us a week in the house, in the space which was built on a stage in the Warner Brothers lot. And in the kitchen, the director, Mark Mylod, put a bunch of cold cuts and bread. And at that time the fridge still smelled fine after years and years of the fridge getting unplugged and replugged. And the fridge smelled so bad by the end. And they would put GoPros in the

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

fridge and we would have to open

[Emmy Rossum]

the fridge, you know. Cause there's a little camera inside and we would get something and you would have to plan when you would take your breath.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

It was like a joke we all played.

[Emmy Rossum]

Cause like an old fridge, just like there's something wrong with it.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

It was like had died in that fridge.

[Alex Cooper]

I could smell it and I'm not even there.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

So bad. And like you'd be like, okay, so as I'm coming around the kitchen island,

[Emmy Rossum]

I'm going to take my breath here

[Alex Cooper]

and then I'm getting a breath.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Okay, I'm closing it.

[Alex Cooper]

Exhale.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Like it was crazy.

[Emmy Rossum]

But the first week that we were in that house, it was magic. It was. We were all. And that's kind of what it's like being on a show. It's like summer camp or Love Island. You're all in with less glam. You are all in the same place. You are caring about the same thing. You are talking about the same thing. You are eating your meals together. I was so those cold cuts were in there so I could prepare the meals for the family for our week of rehearsals. The fridge smells still smelled great, so it was fine.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

But it was really this amazing time where we were sharing and getting to know each other. And there was rigor on the set too. We didn't have a huge budget, so we would shoot up to eight or ten pages a day sometimes. When we went to Chicago, there were no sides on set ever. No sides. All actors were no sides for crew either.

[Alex Cooper]

Can you explain what that means for people?

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. So when you get to set, ordinarily people shrink down the script to this kind of like pocket size version. And you just have the pages that you're gonna shoot that day. So if actors haven't learned their lines, which some choose not to, they can look at them or people can refer to them. So everyone's got a little like mini, mini bible of what you're making today. John Wells doesn't believe in that. He believes everyone should show up and be ready to do the job. So he doesn't make those available. They're literally not produced. So if you want sides on set, you gotta lug your whole script around. So that meant that everyone showed up completely ready to work at all times. There were no last looks. Last looks is when your hair and Makeup team come in when they say the cameras are ready to roll, and they touch you up. Zero. We didn't have sides. We didn't have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years of show up on time, be ready. This is my home.

[Alex Cooper]

You're like, this is home for me.

[Emmy Rossum]

I don't need touch ups. I don't want touch ups. I want to make.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I want to.

[Emmy Rossum]

I want to make. Let's make some feelings, right?

[Alex Cooper]

This is like back to what you're saying about the opera. You're like, this is it. And I know that there has been reports of like 20 hour production days and the set could be challenging at times. Like, how do you look back on that period when you, like, hear those things? Like, do you stay positive?

[Emmy Rossum]

I mean, I love that show and our experience so much. 20 hour production days are. They happen. And when we were in Chicago, we would shoot two units at once. We would. So you would be shooting over here. You would change sometimes, like in a restroom at a gas station, or sometimes like, you would do a quickie change, like behind a dive coat on the sub, on the L train. You would go to the next location. But we were so enmeshed with each other. We were so in each other's lives. We spent 10 to 16 to 20 hours a day, five days a week, five months a year, for nine years together. So it's impossible not to be so close.

[Alex Cooper]

Did you ever feel like your work ethic was mislabeled in the press or in those moments where you were showing up and doing your job?

[Emmy Rossum]

That wasn't my experience. I felt very, very nurtured and shepherded by John Wells, who encouraged me to direct on the show, which I got to do many times. My cast also was very championing of me to do that. I certainly come to the set to work and I bring my all. And I think like many women, we care deeply and we prepare deeply and we love what we do. But I. I mean, I. I love that job so much. And I. I felt like I was. I felt like I was born on that job that I. That's where I learned to direct. John also was so shepherding of my writing as well, giving notes on the first script that I had written, hiring me to direct on another one of his shows. And those are all my buds. Like, we're close. I'm seeing one of them tonight on set. So I'm. I'm really grateful for that time. And it has a. Just nothing but happiness in my heart for it.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay. We're gonna close out shameless conversation with some rapid fire. Okay. If you had to pick, which of Fiona's exes would she end up with?

[Emmy Rossum]

Jimmy Stainless.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

They just.

[Emmy Rossum]

They're just so good together. I mean, yeah, he's. He's not always honest at all, but I just love them together.

[Alex Cooper]

Jimmy, Steve. They're. They're even in the honesty lies the problem.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

He thought his name was one thing.

[Emmy Rossum]

Loved him.

[Alex Cooper]

It's another thing.

[Emmy Rossum]

He was cast before I was too. Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Interesting.

[Emmy Rossum]

And we had made a movie together called Dragon Ball Evolution a couple years before, so I already knew him. And the second that I knew he was cast, I couldn't wait to work with him again.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, that's amazing. Okay, which Gallagher sibling were you the closest to off camera?

[Emmy Rossum]

Lip.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, let's talk about good old Jeremy.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Who do you think was more stubborn, character wise? Fiona or Lip?

[Emmy Rossum]

Lip.

[Alex Cooper]

You're like, obviously. Yeah, he was the problem. Okay, what is your one. One of your favorite memories with Jeremy Allen White on set?

[Emmy Rossum]

Anytime we had a scene that was just us where we could really dig in, either a quiet scene or scenes where we went at each other, he's so. He has so much soul, and he brings so much intensity and so much truth and honesty. That's the kind of the beautiful thing about playing characters for. I mean, I made 110 episodes of the show. They made more than that than I did. And after a certain point, the writers start to write little bits of you in there and they start to understand, like, the symbiosis of how you guys work together. And I'm so happy for him and proud of him, and he's such an incredible human being and incredible actor, and I just feel lucky that we got to share all those scenes together.

[Alex Cooper]

No, I know. I was thinking about that, like, how crazy to see that success that he's having.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

And have been probably feeling like he's like a brother to you on this set. And then to see, obviously, like, you both having so much success, that must be so gratifying.

[Emmy Rossum]

It's amazing.

[Alex Cooper]

It's amazing. Okay, what is your favorite off camera memory that you have with the cast?

[Emmy Rossum]

In Chicago, we had this massive, massive snowstorm, and we got shut down for one day. We would go to Chicago to shoot twice a season, and we all stayed in the same hotel, and we would be in and out of each other's rooms, and we ate all meals together, and we got this piece of cardboard to, like, be a makeshift sled. And Justin Chatwin saw a truck and got on the piece of cardboard and like rode it down the road. He's such a, he's such a daredevil. And I have this video of us while watching him do it, being like,

[Alex Cooper]

don't do it, but also do it.

[Emmy Rossum]

Oh, and that was kind of like, we had a lot of kind of mischievous play and craziness and it was just incredibly fun.

[Alex Cooper]

Love it. What Fiona decision, Will you go down defending God?

[Emmy Rossum]

I mean, I think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around that I think Robbie had given her. And Liam got into it and he ended up hospitalized for it. And I think that that was the worst I ever saw her. And certainly when I read it, I was terrified of the scene because of how I, I cared about Fiona. Even though it made for really good drama.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh my God. Not you like reading that scene.

[Emmy Rossum]

You're like, I'm like, oh, it's really good drama. But like, oh God, I gotta do this now.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay. Off the top of your head.

[Emmy Rossum]

Most emotional scene to film, certainly in the prison. The strip search scene was really very challenging.

[Alex Cooper]

It's so crazy because that show was so funny in moments, but like my parents are re watching it and they're like, it's dark. What's an iconic line of dialogue from the show that you still remember?

[Emmy Rossum]

I don't think it was even in the show, but we had this off camera joke of look what you could have had Craig Heisner. That was like maybe Shanola's line, but maybe not. And it was about Taylor Kinney who played this guy Craig Heisner that Fiona was into in high school and he ends up married, but then she ends up sleeping with him even though he's married.

[Alex Cooper]

I like that line.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

So I, I think, I don't know

[Emmy Rossum]

if that was in there, but that's what we used to say a lot.

[Alex Cooper]

Call her Daddy is brought to you by Sephora. From Less is More days to full glam routines. Everything you need for all things beauty is at Sephora. Yep, Sephora is where you will find the hottest, newest products you won't find anywhere else. The ones popping up in every get ready with me. Think summery fragrances like kayali Eden plush pear 23 eau de parfum. Next level makeup. The skin care that keeps you glowing like it's your full time job. Shop the newest, hottest beauty only at Sephora. Daddy Gang. Today's episode is sponsored by Sour Patch Kids besties. Sour Patch Kids besties are a new spin on the OG but still have everything you already love about them. You still get that classic sour than sweet experience. But now the pieces come connected together in little bestie pairs. It is. I'm not. Okay. It's so cute. They're literally attached at the hip, which is perfect because I was never stopping at just one. Anyways, go share some besties with your bestie. Oh, my God.

[Emmy Rossum]

So good.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, I want to talk about a huge accomplishment of yours. Your fight for pay equity on Shameless. How did you first decide to even take that on?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, when I started the show, it made a lot of sense that Macy made a lot more money than me. He was coming in much older, much more accomplished, tons more credits and number one on the call sheet. And then by season three, they approached us. We had a six year contract, approached us to add another year. And I think my lawyers felt at that time that we had the receipts. Like we could see the way the short, the storylines were shaping. We knew about fan engagement and we felt that it made sense to ask for that. We didn't get it. And that's fine. We thought, you know, we tried. We didn't get it. And then in season five or six, they came and they asked for more, more years. So I guess at six we extended to seven. And then maybe in seven they came and they asked for eight. Nine. That's right. And by that point I had been directing a lot on the show and it very much felt like a two hander. And we said, let's go for it again. It was kind of shut down pretty fast and we kind of. It kind of lingered for a while and then I wasn't sure if we were gonna get it. It's always scary asking for what you think you're worth to say, I think this is what I'm worth. You have to take up space in the room. And it's their job to make the show for as little as possible to make the most profit that's any business runs that way. So Kai can understand it from the other perspective too. And I didn't know if they were gonna come over to our side and do it or not. And we were getting kind of close to filming the next season and I was one day sitting, I was like on a writer's retreat and I was procrastinating and I opened up Twitter and it was a headline that we were in like a stalemate. And I was shook because you had

[Alex Cooper]

intended for this whole thing to stay private.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah, it's a private business negotiation and I never imagined it would become public. Not just for the public, but also for the rest of the cast and the crew. Right.

[Alex Cooper]

Because the cast wasn't aware, obviously, everyone.

[Emmy Rossum]

Everyone was doing their own negotiation. And so I certainly didn't want that.

[Alex Cooper]

How did you manage that? Once it broke on Twitter, like, did you reach out to cast? Did they reach out to you? Like. Cause it's a little awkward.

[Emmy Rossum]

I didn't say anything. And after the first headline or article, I was kind of like, refresh, refresh, refresh. What's gonna happen? And the tide really shifted. People seemed to write other articles, like, immediately commenting on that, kind of being quite surprised that I wasn't already being paid equal. And it was resolved within a day. I was shocked, shocked, and quite frankly, very, very surprised that we actually got it.

[Alex Cooper]

Wow. So maybe the public commentary actually really helped in your favor because it, like, woke people up to be like, she's not delusional.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Like, guys, what are we doing here?

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

I also think something that's so interesting is, like, when men advocate for their worth, they seem strong, and it's kind of, you know, they're competitive, and it can even be strategic. And when a woman does it, you can just come off as difficult and ungrateful for what you have been given. As you were navigating all of that before it, you know, got released on Twitter. And did you feel this pressure to remain likable during the negotiations? Because these are people that, you know, you have to work with.

[Emmy Rossum]

I only desire to remain professional, and my focus is never on money. It's on. What's fair and what's right. And I believe that people should be paid for their labor. It was really about being valued equally when I was doing equal work. So for me, it was as simple as that. And I was very, very happy when we got it and very, very happy for what it seemingly did for. For. For other women who I. You know, I was, like, in a health food store in Ontario or somewhere in Canada making a movie a year later, and a girl in the health food store said to me, oh, thank you so much for what you did for pay equity. We all asked for a raise here, and I couldn't imagine that it had traveled so far. I think, you know, I think ambition and wanting to be in the driver's seat of your life is not something to be shied away. I think. I think likable is. Is. Should not be the focus it focuses on outward in not what we know to be true about ourselves and our worth.

[Alex Cooper]

And I think, like, I Agree. I think that's the goal. Right. I remember when I interviewed Ellen Pompeo and she talked to me about her contract negotiations with Grey's Anatomy, and she was like, girl, no one is gonna give it to you. You have to ask for it.

[Emmy Rossum]

That's interesting. We had the same agent.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, my God.

[Emmy Rossum]

Very interesting.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, that's very.

[Emmy Rossum]

I like her very much.

[Alex Cooper]

I like her very much, too.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, wow. Okay. Because when Ellen said that to me, I was like, oh, my. You're so right. No one is gonna give it to you. You like, you gotta go for it.

[Emmy Rossum]

There were also a lot of men on my team who were like, let's get this. We are going to get this. We are not going to go back unless we get this. So it wasn't me saying, I want this. There were a lot of times where I felt scared and wanted to cave. I was like, who cares? I love this show. I love these people. I want to do this. And they were like, no, we're not doing this. We're not doing it. Because I had caved once before. I had caved in the first contract negotiation.

[Alex Cooper]

And yeah, I also just. I really appreciate you talking about it because I think it's just such an uncomfortable conversation for so many people because you think about money and you think about men. And so, like, we're kind of dancing around a topic that historically just has not been synonymous with women. And so to re. Acclimate people's brains to, like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm doing the same job as this person who happens to be a man. But why are we not making the same amount? Or why, like, where is the pay equity? It. It's. It sparks a larger conversation. Like Twitter obviously took it and ran with it, but it does still. There is that fear within you that it's fascinating. It's like, would a man be scared? Because we're kind of trained of, like, how far do you want to push it?

[Emmy Rossum]

And I'm so pleased that now this equity conversation is being had is a conversation. It is very hard for women to get what they are worth because there is a double standard.

[Alex Cooper]

Do you have any advice for women who have a hard time advocating for themselves and for their worth?

[Emmy Rossum]

Practice it at home. Practice saying it out loud. Practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

sexually.

[Emmy Rossum]

Say what you want with your partner. Say what you want, eat what you want for dinner. Don't eat the thing you think you should eat for dinner to do what you really want. And treat yourself in the way that you want to be treated. It's also like, I wanted to stay in the job. I loved the job. I wasn't walking away from the job. I loved the job and I loved the job. Until it felt like there wasn't enough juice to squeeze out of the lemon. We had made 110 episodes, and by the time I left and they offered us two more years, I had already started my production company. I had set up my first show, and I was greenlit and getting ready to make it. So when they came with two more years, I felt beholden to the other job. And I think a common misconception is I left to go have babies.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

That could not be further from the truth.

[Emmy Rossum]

I left to go make the show. I had been developing that. Our showrunner, John Wells, had encouraged me to kind of get in the driver's seat of my own career and make my own shows and make things. And I left with a lot of grief and sorrow because I would, I would miss all those people and I couldn't believe that they were going to go on the journey without me. But I was also really excited. I felt like I was launching and a new chapter, getting ready to start this new chapter of my life.

[Alex Cooper]

Also. I, I, I wasn't aware of that rumor. I'm like, that, of course. That is so on the nose, Emmy, of what we're talking about. We're like, of course. It was babies.

[Emmy Rossum]

She left the industry to go have babies. She moved back to New York, obviously.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah, obviously. I want to talk about dating.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah, I love that topic.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay. When you look back on your life.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

Do you notice any patterns or. Okay, you're like, where do I begin? Put me in, Coach, Let me write you a dissertation right now. Patterns or similarities between the guys that you were drawn to in your single and early dating days?

[Emmy Rossum]

Oh, intensity, intensity, Intensity.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

I don't know.

[Alex Cooper]

Explain.

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, I don't know. My first great love was when I was about 18 and he was the older brother of one of my closest friends. So I had known him a little bit from when I was younger. And he asked her to ask me if he could ask me out. And I thought it was so cute. And she was kind of like, lol. Like, this is gonna work out. Like, you should total go out with him. So I did. And he picked me up in a Hummer, which I thought was ridiculous. And I told him immediately, this is a ridiculous vehicle for New York City in New York. Uh huh.

[Alex Cooper]

This man owned a Hummer in New York City.

[Emmy Rossum]

And he thought it was a flex, though, for sure.

[Alex Cooper]

What color was it?

[Emmy Rossum]

It was, like, light green or gray or. It was not amazing.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

But I gave him shit for it, and he liked that, so I liked that. And then the second date, he. Oh, he let me drive the car. I had had no license, and I had never driven a car. And after dinner, he was like, do you want to drive, you know, yourself, home?

[Alex Cooper]

And then I'll drive the Hummer.

[Emmy Rossum]

Do you want to drive the Hummer? And I was like, I don't have a license. And he's like, I'll teach you how to drive. And I was like, what?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

This is great. And he was like, you got to

[Emmy Rossum]

accelerate into the turns.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And I was like, oh, this guy's intense. Like, love this.

[Emmy Rossum]

We didn't kiss, and I started dating him when I had shot Day After Tomorrow and Phantom of the Opera, but neither of them had come out yet. So it was this quiet little chapter in my life before everything kind of exploded. And the second date, I was on the press tour for the Day After Tomorrow. And what a good movie. He. Thank you. So fun to make such a great movie. I love Jake Gyllenhaal. And we. We were on the press tour in Paris, and he flew to Paris to take me on the second date.

[Alex Cooper]

On the second date, this man flew to Paris.

[Emmy Rossum]

He was 20. I was 18, I think. And he said, I've got a surprise for you. And he shut down the palace of Versailles and took me on a date there.

[Alex Cooper]

Emmy, it was.

[Emmy Rossum]

It was epic.

[Alex Cooper]

He shut down Versailles for you, and

[Emmy Rossum]

it was misty and raining, and you're 18. And we kissed for the first time

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

at the palace of Versailles, and I was like, this is the rest of my life, right?

[Alex Cooper]

How is that a second date?

[Emmy Rossum]

Intense. Intense.

[Alex Cooper]

Very intense. And when you look back, like, what does that intensity in a relationship like, really feel like and ignite in you?

[Emmy Rossum]

I don't know. I'm also drawn to people that are very good at what they do. His family was art dealers, and he was extremely educated in art and history and spoke multiple languages and was like a fisherman and could do a lot of things. And I found that really interesting.

[Alex Cooper]

I mean, I. I completely agree. I think when you can be intellectually stimulated, but also watching someone be really good at a craft, it's extremely.

[Emmy Rossum]

And also, like, I don't like opacity. I don't want to wonder if you like me or not. I don't want to play games. I don't want to be in A situationship. I don't want to be like, is he gonna. No. I will know if I like you, and I want to know if you like me.

[Alex Cooper]

But date two.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Paris, Versailles.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

We're shutting it down.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

It leaves a fall off opportunity, because what is date 3, 4, 5? And where do we go from here when the intensity is so intense? Like, obviously you're saying you saw patterns.

[Emmy Rossum]

I mean, we were together for almost

[Alex Cooper]

two years, and at 18, that's pretty long.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

When did you have a comedown from that relationship?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, I maybe were together for a year and a half. It felt like a long time. I. It was the first time I moved out of my house where I'd grown up with my mom, and I moved into his house with his family, his whole family. So my friend, they all lived on different floors of the house. So my friend that I had grown up with, she was like, on the third floor. We were on the second floor. The parents were on the top floor. It was like, all a big family in a house.

[Alex Cooper]

I love how the people, when they were trying to cast you for Shameless, they're like, I don't know if you're really her. Everything in your life so far is like, I am Fiona Gallagher in a different extent.

[Emmy Rossum]

And then the first time I went away to make a movie, when we were together, I was gonna be gone for six months, just in la, and it was the first time we've really been apart, and we had been to the Oscars together. We had really kind of enmeshed in each other's lives, and my world had really kind of changed and exploded. And he had been along you for the ride on that with me. And I was gonna be away for six months, and he worked in New York, and I remember on a call, he said something like, well, do you think you're gonna, like, continue to do more of this? And I said, hopefully, that's the plan. And that was not the answer he was looking for. And so I was really heartbroken. I. I remember I cried for hours, for days. Days.

[Alex Cooper]

I was very heartbroken because you're basically like, do I pick my career or the guy I'm in love with?

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. And I was like, well, my identity cannot be the cost. My being an artist, which I've been since I'm seven years old, cannot be the cost for being in love.

[Alex Cooper]

Did you find that you continued to crave intensity again?

[Emmy Rossum]

Sure.

[Alex Cooper]

Did you slow things down ever. Did you ever have a slow burn, Emmy, or.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, my husband is a slow Burn.

[Alex Cooper]

We're gonna get there. Yeah, we're gonna get there. Don't fast forward.

[Emmy Rossum]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, hold on. So we're still in the. Like, you were looking for intensity. You would find yourself enjoying it in the beginning.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

Eventually, it would burn out.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

21.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

You got married.

[Emmy Rossum]

Oops. Oops.

[Alex Cooper]

Oops. Okay, tell me about what. What happened?

[Emmy Rossum]

You know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head? Well, I heard it, and I ignored it. After, I dated Versailles guy, who we

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

will call him now, Versaille guy, who's

[Emmy Rossum]

now, by the way, happily married, lovely kids, and I'm still friends with his sister. Love that for him. I dated a guy whose favorite pastime was breaking up with me in public. We would like to order the meal, and then he would say things to me, like, just feel like you're growing so much from knowing me, but, like, I don't know that I'm growing that much from knowing you.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm like, on average, how many times do you think he did this to you? Two or three, Emmy.

[Emmy Rossum]

Two or three.

[Alex Cooper]

And you would just sit there and

[Emmy Rossum]

like, I really liked him. I really liked him.

[Alex Cooper]

And this.

[Emmy Rossum]

He was really. He was really talented. I was very attracted to his talent, his power on stage. We had done Romeo and Juliet together, and he had been Mercutio, and Mercio was just like, a real panty dropper, and I was just. Yeah, I really liked him. And so there were, like, two very consecutive rough heartbreaks.

[Alex Cooper]

How did your mother feel about you getting married at 21?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, she felt great about it because she didn't know. Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

When did she come?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

So I started.

[Emmy Rossum]

I started dating Justin, and he worked at Interscope Records that I was signed to, and we were dating for maybe a couple months. We were certainly. We liked each other. And then I got Dragon Ball Evolution, and I was gonna go away for six months to Mexico, to Durango, Mexico, the middle of Mexico, and make this movie. And I remember the day that I was going away to make the movie. He said something to me, like, I don't know if the relationship is gonna survive the distance, so, like, maybe we should break up or get married.

[Alex Cooper]

No.

[Emmy Rossum]

How could I make this up?

[Alex Cooper]

Emmy?

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I literally had a flight that night to Durango, Mexico.

[Emmy Rossum]

And so I think the decisions that we.

[Alex Cooper]

She's dead.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Dead.

[Emmy Rossum]

She's dead.

[Alex Cooper]

I am obsessed with you. You're like. So it had. We had to get married.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

So from either breakup or get married.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. Well, at that moment, I thought to myself, well, I'm just coming off these two really rough heartbreaks. Like, abandonment is my core wound. I don't want. I don't want that. That hurts me. And I literally thought, my 21 year old. 20. 20 year old.

[Alex Cooper]

21 maybe. Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

My 21 year old brain thought, you know, divorce doesn't seem that complicated.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Like, it.

[Emmy Rossum]

It's probably pretty straightforward.

[Alex Cooper]

How did that work out?

[Emmy Rossum]

It wasn't not straightforward.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Okay, but.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, but it was, you know, and I knew that I.

[Alex Cooper]

Not you planning the divorce before 100%.

[Emmy Rossum]

And so he literally printed out, like a marriage contract online and got some guy on the Internet to, like, come over to my house. I found, like, a white turtleneck that was in my closet and, like, threw it on because, like, I was like, this is appropriate, right?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

Literally not hearing the smoke detector in my head being like, don't do this. You don't have to do this. No guy should be like, let's marry. You know what I mean? It was my intention not to tell anyone because I knew in my gut it wasn't right.

[Alex Cooper]

How long were you married for?

[Emmy Rossum]

I think we're married for. Oh, I was away for six months. When I got back, it became abundantly clear we weren't a match in any way.

[Alex Cooper]

Did he come to visit you in Mexico?

[Emmy Rossum]

I don't think so. Oh, I don't remember.

[Alex Cooper]

That's interesting because he's like.

[Emmy Rossum]

It's like not that long of a flight.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I don't know. What? Like, everyone's very dramatic. I don't know. Like, it's literally just like, going. You people go to Mexico for the weekend. Like, what are we talking about?

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

I love that.

[Alex Cooper]

It's like, if you leave, like, we're not gonna make it, so we have to get married.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

So dramatic.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay, okay. So you come back and then eventually you're like, this isn't working.

[Emmy Rossum]

This isn't the thing.

[Alex Cooper]

When did you tell your mom?

[Emmy Rossum]

I told my mom, hey, I'm breaking up with Justin and I need a lawyer. And she was like, you did not.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

And I was like, I did.

[Emmy Rossum]

And my mom has always been somebody that mobilizes. My mom is like. Like, if anyone is going through a breakup, my mom is not employed right now. So if you need someone to show up, she'll like, send you for a manicure and be like, I have the U Haul. Like, go take care of yourself.

[Alex Cooper]

What is your mom's first name?

[Emmy Rossum]

Cheryl.

[Alex Cooper]

Cheryl is gonna be there to be like, girl, let's get the divorce papers.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh, wow.

[Emmy Rossum]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

So she mobilized for you.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

She mobilized and you got the out. Yeah. Almost a decade later.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

You met your now husband.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

On a movie set. What drew you to him? Was there intensity there? Tell me everything.

[Emmy Rossum]

Okay. We met on my birthday. We had a meeting about a movie that he had written, the first movie that he was ever gonna make. And when a director offers you a movie, they send you an email through your agents and there's usually the script, maybe a lookbook, and usually a letter that expresses why they think you're right for the movie and tells you a little bit about the movie. And sometimes with a first time filmmaker, they'll tell you a little bit about themselves else.

[Alex Cooper]

So no.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. So I brought you the letter because

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I knew we were going to talk about relationships.

[Alex Cooper]

I am sad. No one has ever done this on Call Her Daddy.

[Emmy Rossum]

Emmy, I have the letter.

[Alex Cooper]

Where is my letter?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

Oh, I'm not gonna read the whole thing because my husband is long winded. His films are long and his letter is long.

[Emmy Rossum]

But this is the letter that he wrote me. I'm gonna read some excerpts of it.

[Alex Cooper]

Give it to us. Oh, I'm so ready.

[Emmy Rossum]

So here's the thing. You're a beautiful, successful actress. Thank you. With a long career ahead of you, doing my movie would require you to take a gamble on somebody you don't know. So I'll give you a rough sketch of whom we're dealing with. I'm a screenwriter, reluctantly living in Los Angeles, wishing I were in Manhattan. I'm tall, but I hunch. My parents are Egyptian, but I was born in New Jersey. I'm too nerdy to be a hipster and too cool to be a nerd. So I have friends and enemies on both sides of the aisle. The entire situation fills me with a lot of anxiety. A lot. I do not care much for money. I also don't have much of it, given my incredible Dartmouth NYU student loan debt. I also want to make movies because I have to. I'll explain. I was in therapy the other day

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

analyzing the very subject.

[Emmy Rossum]

I've wanted to be a filmmaker ever since I was 8. And it's been a long, arduous journey to get there. And I'm telling all of this to coddle. That's my therapist's name. It's pronounced like Cottle. How fitting. Anyway, Cottle sits there all intense and pensive like he normally is, and says the same thing he normally says. This is just your career, Sam. There's more to life than your work. I hated him for using that word.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I Finally told him, stop using that word.

[Emmy Rossum]

This is not a career.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

That session turned ugly and weird.

[Emmy Rossum]

But it also turned out to important. It's when we realized I don't look at this like a job. It's the same way a mom wants to be a mom, a dad wants to be a dad, or a pet wants to be petted. It's a want that just is. If there were a parallel universe where filmmaking was the equivalent of a $30,000 a year factory job, I'd be there. And I was like, who is this? That sounds.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm immediately into it. He's like, I'm in therapy. I'm like, check, check.

[Emmy Rossum]

I love my job. I'm tall, but I hunch. I'm like, who is this voice?

[Alex Cooper]

I'm a nerd, but I'm not a nerd. I'm not a hipster, like all the everything. So when you get that.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

What is your first reaction?

[Emmy Rossum]

I was sitting in the hair and makeup trailer at Shameless and I was reading the letter before I had read the script. And I turned to Shanola Hampton and Sharon Rivera, our head of hair, and was like, can I read you this letter? I think I'm supposed to know this person. And there was something that was just like immediately familiar or intriguing or something. So I read the script and it was undeniable. And I was like, who is this person? And then I met him and he showed up in a American Apparel hoodie, in a vintage Prius. And he had lookbooks upon lookbooks upon lookbooks about what the film was going to be, how he was going to make it. And I was immediately impressed by his work ethic and his vision and thought he was a really interesting person.

[Alex Cooper]

What did it feel like after you are like, I am so impressed with this person. I am already into it by his writing. Then you meet him, see him for the first time, hear his voice. When does it turn from work to romance?

[Emmy Rossum]

We knew each other for about a year. We developed the movie, went and found financing for the movie, put the movie together, he cast it, and then we started. We had spent time together over that year and I remember I started thinking about life through the lens of him. I would be eating a sandwich and I'd be like, I wonder if Sam likes tuna. Or I'd be like, you know, I drove past a museum and was like, I wonder if Sam would like to see the Kubrick exhibit. I wonder if Sam would think that's funny. And I was so curious about him and I, I had spent so Long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me. When I realized maybe what I'm after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand. Like, I was so fascinated by him. And then about a week before he made the movie, he came over to my house for dinner, and he said, I've just been to therapy, and I really have to get this off my chest. Coddle. And I talked about this, and I just have to tell you that I love you. And we hadn't even started the movie yet. I was like, huh? I did not say it back. I did not know how I felt. And then we started the movie a week later.

[Alex Cooper]

What did you say back?

[Emmy Rossum]

Bon appetit. I don't really remember saying much of anything. I think he said something like, but I. But I don't mean it like that. What I mean is, like, I mean, I do, but I also don't. Like, obviously, I'm me and you're you, and I'm sure that, like, you know, you could never love me, and one day I'm sure that I'll be at your wedding, and I'll always love you from afar, and nothing ever has to happen. Obviously, it won't. And I just needed to say that,

[Alex Cooper]

and then the rest is history. Eventually, yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

I mean, the second that I got on set and I saw him, he was so kind and capable, and he played really good music at Video Village, and he gave really good notes. And so suddenly he went from someone. Suddenly he was really sexy. His, like, quiet power was like, oh, no. So then I said, after the first week, I think I love you too. And he was like, no, you don't. And I was like, yes, I do. And he was like, okay, here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna kiss you, and you're gonna be like, I don't feel anything. And then we're just gonna go back to the way. And I was like, what are you doing? Just do it already. And he's like, but it can't mess up the movie. And I was like, okay, it won't be.

[Alex Cooper]

And then it didn't mess up the movie.

[Emmy Rossum]

And then we kissed, and we've basically. We broke the couch. We broke the couch. We had an L sofa, and we broke the couch.

[Alex Cooper]

We broke the couch.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. And that was 14 years ago.

[Alex Cooper]

14 years ago, yeah. Can you talk about how you've said throughout our conversation today? You know, like, I have these abandonment wounds, and, you know, I know your relationship with your. Or lack thereof. Relationship with your Father was extremely complicated. Like, how did you. Finding such a stable, incredible partner that you love so much? Like, have you been able to look at that relationship with your father and whether it's heal some wounds or just like, how do you feel about it now?

[Emmy Rossum]

Oh, it's such a good question. My relationship with my husband and watching him be the world's greatest girl dad. He was, like, made to be a girl dad. It's the ultimate healing. The ultimate. And my husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted.

[Alex Cooper]

That's so beautiful. I didn't even think about that. Like, you're getting. It's healing watching him do to your daughters what. What you didn't get, you didn't get.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

And to watch him do it so incredibly. Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

Effortlessly.

[Alex Cooper]

And to do it to such a caliber that, like, you're.

[Emmy Rossum]

He would never, ever leave her.

[Alex Cooper]

Wow, that's really beautiful because I feel like I'm sure there's so many women watching who have complicated relationships or don't have relationship with their father. And that is such a. From experience with my friends who have a similar situation where you're like, I don't have the relationship. And I. And some of my friends, like, I don't even want it. But trying to find your way forward with those male figures in your life and, like, put in place, like, what that would look like in your ideal world, to be able to, like, get it and to watch it. How healing that must feel. I'm so happy for you.

[Emmy Rossum]

It's moving. Yeah, it is.

[Alex Cooper]

Have you ever reached out or ever spoken to your father again since.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah, yeah. You're younger. Okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

I met my dad when I was four, but I wasn't told he was my dad.

[Alex Cooper]

And why was that?

[Emmy Rossum]

He told my mom that he wouldn't come if she told me who he was.

[Alex Cooper]

So you thought you were just meeting like a. I.

[Emmy Rossum]

He. A guy came. One of my mom's friends came to take me for dinner for my birthday. And I was 4 or 5, so I didn't ask many questions about it. I didn't really get it. And sky came and took me for dinner, and we went for spaghetti. And I don't remember much of it. The only thing I remember is kids cut their spaghetti. And I remember he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And I went home and my mom was like, how was it? And I was like, he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And she was like, okay. So then a couple years later, after hearing at school, in kindergarten and first and second grade, you know, who's your dad? It wasn't. It wasn't common to have a single parent household. At least when I was growing up, it wasn't as common. All the families that I grew up in looked very traditional and conventional, and so I felt that absence very much. And so I started asking my mom more and more, who's my dad? Just tell me who's my dad? And she's like, do you remember that guy that came to take you for dinner? And I was like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy as my dad. And she's like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy as your dad. And I was devastated. I was like, I didn't. Like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy. She's like, I know. Yeah.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

And then.

[Alex Cooper]

Did you ever.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I did.

[Emmy Rossum]

I did. I met him once when I was 8. He took me to Casper and he fell asleep. But I did develop a deep crush on Devin Sawa. So the day was not for.

[Alex Cooper]

Not completely lost.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yes.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

And then I didn't really see him again until I was on shameless in my 20s. And we tried a couple times, but he's just not really interested in loving me.

[Alex Cooper]

Oh.

[Emmy Rossum]

But my husband is amazing with my daughter and getting to watch him play with her, pick her up from school, be so incredibly devoted as a dad and to my son, too. Getting to watch the fact that I got to give her something that I didn't get is I get to live vicariously through that, and that's enough for me.

[Alex Cooper]

It's beautiful intimacy.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

How has your understanding of intimacy changed since your early 20s?

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, I'm so much better at asking for what I want now. I. You know that that little voice inside of you that says, I'd like to be touched like this, or I'd like this, or I don't like that, or that feels. I felt that. My voice felt quiet and stifled when I was younger. I felt shame about expressing desire. I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted about using the words, but you have to tell somebody what you want. And also what you want on Monday doesn't mean you want it on Thursday. And it's okay to say, yeah, I wanted that on Monday. I don't want that today. You know, like, it's okay to grow and change, and I feel like I have a lot more comfort. And part of that was my pregnancy because my hormones were so strong and I felt so sexual. I was so down that it was the voice was so loud in my head, it was screaming that I couldn't ignore it.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah. My favorite topic.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm pregnant, obviously, and I feel like a lot of the advice that I'm getting for parenting advice, a lot of people just keep saying like, oh my God, you kind of just have to figure things out. Like that's people can try to prepare you and tell you what's gonna happen. How did you personally embrace the uncertainty of not having all of the answers and not being able to look at the page. Like you said, you do your script and fill in the blanks and prepare and be ready and then get onto that set and like take it 100% like a pro. You kind of can't do that from what I understand with motherhood. Emmy tell me you can and you

[Emmy Rossum]

can't like, you can prepare, but then you never know how things are gonna hit you.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

And there's like so much instinct at play. You will just know. At least for me, I can only say from my experience, I saw my child, I knew my child, and I was so taken. I, I, you know, I had the same thing where that I said about my mom. I wanted to be a mother that was worthy of being this child's mother. And then I realized I'm trying too hard. I'm trying too hard to be worthy of anybody else. I just gotta be me. And, and women are always told, you can have it all, you can, but that actually means you have to do it all. And it comes at a cost. And often that cost is not your job and not your kid, but you. So when my daughter was 10 months old. This is an insane story. When my daughter was 10 months old, this is what my therapist calls the pancake problem. I was going to shoot on the Crowded Room and I had like a 16 hour shoot day. And I was waking up before she was gonna wake up, and I was coming home way before, way after, she was gonna be asleep. And I was like, how will my daughter know that I love her today? She will think I don't love her today. She's 10 months old. She doesn't know what's going on, right?

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

She literally doesn't know what's going on.

[Alex Cooper]

Literally have no clue.

[Emmy Rossum]

So I thought, okay, the car is gonna pick me up in like 20 minutes, but I have to do something so that my daughter knows I love her today. So I have to take a shower. I have to get in the car in 20 minutes. But I'm gonna make my daughter pancakes from scratch also before I leave.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

This is

[Emmy Rossum]

so I turn on the stove, I make the batter, I turn it on low, I put three little pancakes in the pan, and I set a timer on my phone for three minutes because that's generally how long until you got a flip. I ran to the shower, got in the shower, shampooed, washed it out. Ding, ding, ding. The timer goes off. Time to flip the pancakes. Gotta get out of the shower, but I still have to condition, so I'll

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

have to get back in the shower.

[Alex Cooper]

This is insane.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

But this is also so postpartum. Like, I was like in it the first time.

[Alex Cooper]

I'm picturing you, like, wet, toweled, like, running.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, I'm naked. You're naked, but I'm naked. I don't have time for a towel. The pancakes are on and I'm in the Shower. And I gotta be in the car in 15 minutes. Run to the pancakes. They're perfect. Flip them. Gorgeous, golden brown perfection. Sprint back to the shower. But I left the shower door just a crack open, so the water is on the floor. So I slip and my foot gets caught under the shower door, and I hear, like, a crack. And now I'm, like, down on the shower floor. And I then scream out, like, someone

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

turn the pancakes off. And then, like, army crawl to the kitchen.

[Emmy Rossum]

The pancakes were fine. I then called work and was like, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be a couple minutes late, and I need to switch my pickup to Lennox Hill Hospital. Probably just, like. Just like, 20 minutes late. I'm so sorry. I just need, like, probably a quick X ray and I'll be right.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I'll just.

[Emmy Rossum]

Quick little X ray and I'll be right there. By the way, I didn't hold camera.

[Interviewer/Producer or Assistant]

I was like.

[Emmy Rossum]

I was completely there on time. I got the X ray, my daughter got the pancakes. And at the end of the day, I was like, something's gotta change.

[Alex Cooper]

Okay. No, I'm listening to the story, and I'm like. I thought that we were, like, we had to call in to work, and we're, like, out for work.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, no, no.

[Alex Cooper]

She got the pancakes, she did the work in a boot, and she lost her mind.

[Emmy Rossum]

In a boot? Yeah, 100%. And so this was a lesson I learned that year and got really, really good at being like, I'm gonna do less. But it's something that comes up for me a lot. Like, just last week, I took. I went to set, I shot my first scene. I had, like, the middle of the day off. I took my kids to the zoo. I took them on a zip line. We got lunch. I went back to set, did my last scenes, went back, did bath time, bedtime, got on a zoom, and I was like, I'm depleted. I gotta. So this pancake issue, I think, is real for a lot of women. A lot of moms who really want to show up on every level in their lives. They're showing up at work, they're showing up for their kids. No one is feeling it. Right, but they're feeling it. And so I think for me, the biggest lesson is that sometimes it's okay to do a little bit less.

[Alex Cooper]

I know. I feel like that's what everyone's like. But then I feel so guilty of, like, one area has to suffer. And, like, has that impacted the way that you view your career and success at all?

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

Hmm.

[Emmy Rossum]

Well, motherhood hasn't made me any less desirous of storytelling or ambitious.

[Alex Cooper]

Clearly not. That's why we're here today. We're about to get there. Yeah.

[Emmy Rossum]

And I think it's made me more strategic and clearer about when it's worth. When the story is worth me missing even the smallest moments of my kid's life. Like a normal day, I wake up and I take them on the public bus and I do drop off. And if I go to set, I go to set and if not, I go about my day and I pick up like I want to be in my kids lives as much as possible.

[Alex Cooper]

Your new project.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

The show Furious.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

It is your production company's second project.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

And you are both the executive producer and you are the star, so congratulations.

[Emmy Rossum]

Thank you.

[Alex Cooper]

Doing both. I am so interested to hear you talk more about it because it is obviously so like female led and I know that's what your production company focuses on.

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

Yeah.

[Alex Cooper]

But just tell us a little bit more about it from your perspective and what drew you to it.

[Emmy Rossum]

I really wanted to go back and look at old films that had good skeletons of what could make a TV show and was really, really looking for a character that would be as rich and as deep and as fascinating as Fiona that I could play for years and years. And it's a really fascinating world. It tells the story of my character, Alice, who is a former NYPD detective, which is a very prestigious job. It is not a job that people leave. And Alice has left the police department because she's been in an abusive relationship with another officer who she's known since her teenage years. And she started over at the FBI. So she's a new FBI agent who's really going to have to work her way up. And she stumbles upon this idea that there's a murder that is connected to an old case that she had at the nypd. So we are simultaneously following this serial killer, this really fascinating, mysterious woman who has been also a victim of violence and is kind of on a mission to enact vengeance and get justice for herself and Alice's plan to get justice on a much larger scale. And we'll notice that the women are actually more similar than they are different. And I was really fascinated too by what happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf. Like, who do you call when your partner is hurting you and is in also in law enforcement? You call 911 and who answers the phone? The partner of your partner whose responsibility is to watch Each other's back on the street. It is incredibly complicated, dynamic, and very charged. And for Alice, who stumbles upon this case and then gets back involved with the nypd, who she's been running from, to have to see that former person at your new job when you've done everything to get away from them. And also the relationship between Alice and her ex is one that had violence and control, but also love and desire and loyalty and history for a very, very long time. So it's a very, very complicated, like, fertile ground and one that I was like, I could dig here for a long time.

[Alex Cooper]

Well, I. I agree. I. My team and I were talking about how we just love these female characters. And I know the show gets its title from the Greek goddess of vengeance you mentioned. Yes.

[Emmy Rossum]

Multiple goddesses. Yeah. Who's wanna enact vengeance?

[Alex Cooper]

Can you explain what really started to interest you about female fury and rage?

[Emmy Rossum]

Oh, well, I think women have a lot to be furious about. That felt cheesy, but I didn't mean it that way because that's the title of the show.

[Alex Cooper]

It's okay.

[Emmy Rossum]

No, I think. I think sometimes, as we see with these characters, our power does come from being underestimated. For both of these women, they have to work in the shadows, outside the. The conventions, and they both exhibit very risky behavior. And I think that that's why they're fascinating to watch.

[Alex Cooper]

Something that I love that you do a little differently is the central conflict. Yes. Being at first between these two women. Obviously there's so many layers to it, but I feel like neither woman neatly fits into the hero or the villain box, which I love that so much. And I'm curious, like, what interested you in kind of putting out a show that does live in the gray area?

[Emmy Rossum]

I love that. I mean, I think that's so delicious. I think that there's so much more kind of juice to be found in moral gray areas than in people who seem one way but then surprise you and can be other ways.

[Alex Cooper]

No, I completely agree. Are there any themes that you have been really pulled to in your life recently or any. I don't know, anything just like thematically that you're like, oh, that's also something I want to definitely explore in the future in a project or whatever it be that you're like? I think that's something as a woman, especially with my female led company, that I want to kind of take on.

[Emmy Rossum]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I'm interested in exploring all aspects of contemporary womanhood. Anything that causes us shame, anything that makes me uncomfortable or confused or to feel some sort of way. That's what I move towards. Certainly roles that scare me and this one did.

[Alex Cooper]

I have so much respect for how much you pour into your roles and obviously even hearing you say like, I wanted to find something that was as intense for me and like brought it to life. Like Fiona, because that those are huge shoes to fill. Everyone like thinks of that role and they're like, oh my God, it was so iconic. And so the fact that you have such a passion for this show coming out, I know it's like how exciting as yes, an actress, but also on the back end being behind the camera and bringing this to life. I'm so happy for you.

[Emmy Rossum]

Thank you.

[Alex Cooper]

It's really cool. I literally was just like a sponge wanting to talk to you about everything. And I know we went all over the place today, but that was by design because I was like, I need to. I know we only have so much time, but I need to try to

[Emmy Rossum]

cherry pick every little thing from you too. Very much.

[Alex Cooper]

Thank you for sitting with me and just having some girl chat.

[Emmy Rossum]

Thank you so much. I appreciated it very much.

[Alex Cooper]

Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stouffers. Let me tell you something. When I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat, sometimes you can just actually become so you're angry. You're like, I am busy. I'm hungry, I'm getting hangry, I'm getting angry. What can I eat? I need something hot and delicious and low maintenance. Well, introducing Stouffer's dinners are not only delicious, they're done in a flash. Serve up their classic lasagna, chicken pesto or carbonara for two. Whatever you're craving, Stouffer's is your hot, delicious, easy meal fantasy. When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. You can see all the delicious [e-mail].

[Additional Commentator or Producer]

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[Alex Cooper]

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