Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

Summary

Call Her Daddy with Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

Host: Alex Cooper
Guest: Esther Perel (psychotherapist, relationship & couples expert)
Date: April 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Call Her Daddy features renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel for her third visit, with the first-ever in-person conversation between her and host Alex Cooper. Their candid, insightful, and deeply relatable discussion explores modern dating anxieties, the paradox of choice, intimacy, infidelity, codependency, and the necessity of accepting imperfection and friction in relationships. Geared toward an audience of young women, the dialogue confronts the realities of searching for connection in the age of romantic consumerism, and how to foster meaningful, resilient relationships both with others and oneself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of Modern Dating

• Dating as Symptom, Not Cause
  Esther frames modern dating woes as a reflection of deeper trends in relationships and society.

  “Dating is the symptom. But maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships that is making dating more complicated.” (04:06)

• Romantic Consumerism and Perfectionism
  Too many choices lead people to pursue perfection, shun “good-enough” partners, and avoid settling.

  “Romantic consumerism is really challenging. When you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good.” (04:17)

• Digital Culture and Warped Expectations
  Apps and digital content drive the expectation that partners should be as predictable and seamless as technology.

  “Now I want the people that I meet to be just as predictable and perfect as the responses that I get in the palm of my hand.” (06:23)

• The Loss of Serendipity and Presence
  Esther highlights how digital experiences discourage the embrace of the unknown, messiness, and surprise.

  “Serendipity, spontaneity, happenstance… those things produce anxiety rather than awe and surprise at this moment, right?” (07:06)

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Anxiety, Butterflies, and Dating Mindset

• Learning to Embrace Uncertainty
  First dates used to be about excitement and unpredictability; now, they often create anxiety.

  “When you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand. Of course you’re anxious. Of course you’re wondering… it’s all of this in a fantastic soup. It’s not a problem.” (08:58)

• Distinguishing Excitement from Red Flags
  Esther clarifies that butterflies are inherently mixed with anxiety due to the vulnerability of attraction.

  “You can’t experience any love without also experiencing the fear of losing the love.” (10:17)

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The Fallacy of the Checklist

• Who Are You in the Relationship?
  Esther challenges the audience to focus less on finding someone who “checks the boxes” and more on how they show up themselves.

  “Do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find?” (13:23)

• Integrating Dating into Real Life
  Instead of secluding dating from your life and friends, bring potential partners into your world:

  “I’m going to hike tomorrow, I’m going to look for antiques… Do you want to join? Are you into this stuff? I’m going to the movies. I’m going with some friends, join us. That is lower the stakes.” (14:32)

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What Actually Matters in a Partner

• Complementarity Over Checklist
  There’s no magic formula; what matters most is complementary traits, not just similarities.

  “Relationships thrive in complementarity… If I can give you basic sets of human traits, yes—find someone who is decent. Number one, decency.” (19:19)

• De-centering Self-Optimization
  Esther critiques the excessive focus on “self” in modern relationship advice.

  “So much of our pressures… are about… the self… and then even when you ask what should I look for in a partner? It's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each other’s needs that we can cultivate together?” (21:13)

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Friction and Conflict in Relationships

• The Necessity of Friction
  Not every disagreement or obstacle is negative—friction and difference create resilience, desire, and growth.

  “Attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire. Obstacle is friction. It makes me want more when I don’t have.” (25:18)

• Difference Between Good and Bad Friction
  Esther distinguishes healthy conflict (tolerance, negotiation) from toxic fighting or avoidance.

  “I’m not talking about toxicity. I’m talking about friction… It’s the ability to tolerate difference.” (26:31)

• Navigating Conflict Styles
  Relationships often involve one partner more afraid of abandonment, another more afraid of losing themselves.

  “How do I connect to you without losing me? And how do I stay connected to me without losing you?... In every relationship you will find that there is one person that is more in touch with the fear of losing the other, and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves.” (27:58)

• Repair Over Conflict Style
  The quality of repair after conflict matters most, not whether you argue.

  “There are couples that are way more volatile… Can they make up? And how do they make up?... The repair is more important than the actual conflict.” (31:32)

• Accountability is Key
  True progress in arguments comes from ownership, not just communication compatibility.

  “What matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles, but accountability. It's the ability to say, I was threatened and I just lashed out on you.” (32:20)

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Power Dynamics, Respect, and Betrayal

• What Do Couples Fight For?
  Most recurring arguments boil down to “power and control,” “care and closeness,” and “respect and recognition.”

  “Much of our fighting is actually about power and control…it doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids…” (35:36)

• Power in Apology
  Apologizing first can be a sign of strength, not weakness.

  “The person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power.” (39:19)

• Toxic Power and Contempt
  Holding back care, acting aloof, or responding with contempt is the most destructive dynamic.

  “Contempt… is really the number one killer actually.” (41:32)

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Privacy, Sharing, and Relationship Boundaries

• Sharing with Friends: Betrayal?
  Every biography—every story told—involves a small betrayal, but sharing has its place. The key is avoiding victim narratives.

  “Are you ever actually saying what you have done as well, or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you?... At some point you want to say, and where is Esther in the story?” (44:14)

• Emotional Intelligence in Partnership
  Recognize that emotional depth or “intellectual compatibility” can manifest in diverse ways—partners need not provide everything.

  “Intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve only words.” (48:24)
  “Do not think one person can give you what an entire village should provide.” (48:56)

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Infidelity: Breaking and Repairing Trust

• The Evolution of Shame in Cheating Social pressure now demands women must leave after infidelity—or be seen as weak.

  “Now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self esteem, no self confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be.” (50:19)

• Fact-Finding vs. Meaning
  After cheating, focus on what the action meant—not just detective details.

  “Try not to go for the facts… Go for the meaning. What did it mean for you? Why do you think you did this?... Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions.” (53:03)

• Cheating as Self-Loss
  Infidelity often arises not from a failing partner, but a desire to find a part of oneself.

  “Sometimes people go to look for the gaze of another, not because they’re looking for another partner, but they’re looking for another self.” (54:40)

• Rebuilding Trust Requires Empathy & Responsibility For reconciliation, the partner who cheated must fully understand—and empathize with—their partner's pain.

  “You need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your partner.” (57:23)

• Transparency as Trust Repair
  The unfaithful partner preemptively filling in the gaps helps restore trust.

  “If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learn to trust you again.” (59:10)

• Not All Questions Need Answers
  Before asking, consider if you want to know the answer, or want your partner to see you have the question.

  “Before you ask a question, ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question or do you want your partner to know that you have the question?” (59:40)

• Repair Timeline
  Remaining stuck in cycles of blame is neither healthy nor required.

  “No, I don’t think people need to remain stuck in misery… If you can’t find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision.” (63:01)

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Intimacy & Sexual Communication

• Talk About Sex—With Your Partner
  The most important sexual conversations should happen with your partner, not just friends.

  “People seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with…” (69:13)

• Eroticism vs. Sex
  True intimacy incorporates imagination and desire—not just physical acts.

  “Sex is not just something you do. It's a place you go. It's where a lot of things happen there.” (71:03)

• Express Preferences as Requests
  Rather than criticize, use positive requests:

  “Instead of saying, I don't enjoy it, say, 'I would enjoy it a lot more if... I like when you do...' Go with what you ask for.” (73:15)

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Codependency & Differentiation

• Recognizing Codependency
  True closeness doesn’t mean sharing every feeling; emotional enmeshment is problematic.

  “We are close. We are not fused. We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you.” (75:53)

• Steps Toward Individuality Reconnect with yourself by discerning what feelings are yours, and which are not. Don’t personalize your partner’s every mood.

  “First thing you do is what belongs to you and what belongs to them. Don’t personalize.” (77:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Romantic Perfectionism
  “When you look for perfection and predictability in people… you stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life.” (07:50) – Esther

• On Bringing Dating Into Life
  “Lower the stakes. Bring the person into your life. If it doesn’t work, my life didn’t miss anything.” (15:45) – Esther

• On Conflict
  “What drew you together has very little to do with…we both like skiing and outdoors…That is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamics.” (29:16) – Esther

• On Repair
  “The person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power.” (39:19) – Esther

• On Intimacy
  “Sex is not just something you do. It’s a place you go. It’s where a lot of things happen there.” (71:03) – Esther

• On Codependency
  “When you're hungry, I’m not immediately hungry. But somehow when you're upset that instantly makes me anxious…That’s where codependency lives.” (75:53) – Esther

• On Judgment and Cheating
  “It is not my job to tell this person nor any friend’s job to tell this person and talk about the shame…We don’t really know what’s happening in the private lives of other couples.” (62:19) – Esther

• Closing Reflection “The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships, and everything else follows from there.” (80:01) – Esther

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:05] — Esther Perel’s introduction
• [04:06] — The digital age, perfection, and dating challenges
• [08:58] — Embracing unpredictability and anxiety in love
• [13:23] — The harm of checklists and “box-ticking” in dating
• [14:32] — Bringing dating into real life and everyday activities
• [19:20] — What makes for healthy long-term compatibility
• [21:13] — Critiquing self-optimization in relationships
• [25:05] — The positive role of friction and conflict
• [31:32] — What matters most in repairing conflict
• [35:36] — Three core issues couples fight about
• [39:19] — Power and apology
• [44:14] — Sharing relationship struggles with friends: betrayal and boundaries
• [50:11] — The evolving social shame of staying after infidelity
• [53:03] — Investigating meaning (not just facts) in infidelity repair
• [59:40] — Honesty, transparency, and trust rebuilding after cheating
• [63:01] — When to move on after betrayal
• [69:13] — Sexual communication barriers and solutions
• [73:15] — How to voice intimacy desires
• [75:53] — Codependency: signs and how to rediscover individuality

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Episode Summary & Takeaways

This episode is a masterclass in modern love, conflict resolution, and self-reflection.
Esther Perel distills decades of relationship wisdom into practical, paradigm-shifting advice for anyone navigating dating, partnership, and personal growth in the digital age. Listeners are encouraged to question checklist thinking, bring authenticity and context into relational experiences, embrace rather than avoid vulnerability and friction, and understand the importance of self-awareness and empathy in all communications—especially around sexuality and infidelity.

For anyone struggling with chaos in romance, the push-pull of intimacy, or even the shame of wrestling with whether to stay after betrayal, Alex and Esther’s frank, funny, and profound conversation is essential listening—or reading.

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Recommended for further exploration:

• Where Should We Begin? podcast by Esther Perel
• Esther Perel’s books: Mating in Captivity, The State of Affairs
• “Desire Bundle” course for improving intimate communication

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Final Thought:

“The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships, and everything else follows from there.” — Esther Perel (80:01)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm It's a treat for me to be back. Third time.

[A]

I know. I'm so happy. This is the first time that we've met in person.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And it feels right. I remember during the pandemic, I felt like you were my safe place. I was like, I need you. We all need you. Talk to me. And we had such an amazing, we've had such amazing conversations and today I'm just ready to get back into it. For anyone who lives under a rock, you, you are a renowned psychotherapist and a relationship expert. You're also one of the best couples therapists out there. You focus on modern relationships, intimacy, infidelity. And I think a lot of the things that you practice and focus on is going to be very relatable to my audience today. So should we just get into it?

[B]

It's where shall we begin? As we say on the podcast, where should we begin?

[A]

I think a lot of women are really, really discouraged by the current state of dating. What do you think is just behind that?

[B]

There's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating. Dating is the symptom. But maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships that is making dating more complicated. The world of dating itself. Romantic consumerism is really challenging. When you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good. When you are dealing continuously with the paradox of choice with so many options and looking for a soulmate on an app, and with the tremendous case of FOMO when the ick factor is so omnipresent and very, very quick to kick in, when we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless reality and we actually don't have the skills to speak to people, to look at them. What is one of the first things we just did when we saw each other is Touch. You know, we have been so disembodied. So we looked at each other, we smiled to each other, we touched each other, and we kind of really grounded ourselves in each other's presence so that we can have a conversation rather than trying to look for algorithmic perfection.

[A]

I completely agree with everything you just said, but specifically, I think what is very applicable to my audience is like, we're looking for the perfect yes. And we're so hyper fixated on because there's such an enormity of options out there. Because back in the day, our parents never had the access we have. They didn't know that there was a guy named Mike in LA who had a six pack that they can stock. Like, it was just the people that were in their proximity. And I. I would love if you could expand a little bit more on, like, being inundated with relationship content online and through pop culture. Like, how has that warped our idea of love and dating and what it's supposed to look like?

[B]

So the first thing is, where does the perfection come from? Right? Many different sources, but one that comes up immediately is when you look at your phone, it will tell you from app to app where to go, what to listen to, where to eat, what to watch next, what to listen for next. And it gives it to you without any ambiguity. It gives it to you with utter predictability and perfection. And all those technologies that we are having in the palm of our hand are promising to unburden us of all the inconveniences of life. And this is in major part what is warping expectations between people. Because now I want my people that I meet to be just as predictable and just as perfect and just as unquestionable and just as certain as the responses that I get in the palm of my hand for every second question I have. What happens between people is filled with uncertainty. It's experimentation. It's the unexpected, it's the unknown, it's the surprise, it's the curiosity. That's what drives relationships with people in the beginning. And none of that is being trained. When all I need to do is click on something and God forbid I would get lost and discover a whole new landscape that I didn't even know existed. A building I had never noticed. Serendipity, spontaneity, happenstance. Those things produce anxiety rather than awe and surprise at this moment, right?

[A]

It's like people are not as predictable as these apps are. And that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes. We're like, it should just be, you know, Black and white. But really that used to be what was so divine.

[B]

We are by nature unpredictable, flawed, imperfect. And that, you know, what happens when you look for perfection and predictability in people is that you stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life. The smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy. That is not the six pack, right?

[A]

Not the six pack. Not the six pack.

[B]

What do you do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always based on delivery of your every delight? You know, perfect pitch. That is before the advice. That's even before we've come to the advice.

[A]

Right. Can. Can we also focus on. I love how you said, like, the feeling of these people are going out there. And then there's this anxiety. But I think something so beautiful about first dates and first experiences or second dates or third dates is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet someone and there's the unknown and again, the unpredict. That shouldn't scare us. It should excite you to some degree or.

[B]

Or the knowledge that when you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand. Of course you're anxious. Of course you're wondering. Of course you're unsure of concert, trepidatious. And you're excited and you're expectant. It's all of this in a fantastic soup. It's not a problem. It is what happens when you have the mystery meeting the longing, meeting the desire, meeting the uncertainty and meeting possibility.

[A]

Right. How can someone tell the difference, though, between anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warning sign that maybe something is off.

[B]

But butterflies are often mixed with anxiety. That's the thing. It's, you know, it's part of the soup. You can't have butterflies that are just, you know, because. Because the minute you start to be drawn to someone. Let's explain why butterflies involve anxiety. Because the minute you begin to be drawn to someone, the minute you start to experience any. Any inklings of attraction or love, you also experience a fear of rejection, a sense of insecurity, a question about how much it is shared and mutual and reciprocal, and a fear of loss. They go together. You can't experience any love without also experiencing the fear of losing the love. So I think that the idea that you can have it clean without any anxiety is really taking us down the wrong direction.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, if anything, there's something really beautiful about it because it means that there are stakes involved and you could get rejected and that's okay. You're putting yourself out there again. Going back to your Spotify playlist recommends the exact songs that you also will like because you listen to the song and then you go on your app and it tells you the exact jeans that you should buy because you bought these last year. And it's like the unpredictability is actually something that we should lean into.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because there is so much unknown and there's things to explore about yourself and that person. But when we are so focused on figuring them out, it kind of completely denies the ability to grow and to grow into the relationship. If we're just looking for the answer on day one, Effy Yes.

[B]

If you want to take out all the wrinkles from the start, you're in trouble. Wrinkles are part of experience. And you don't. If it's basically taking out the wrinkles from the start is like taking out the experience. Yeah. When do I know that the butterflies are the sign that something is opening up and happening versus a sign that this is something that may be troublesome? The only way you know is context. And context means that you look for other signs. Is it all the time? Is it in writing? Can you have a conversation in person? Can you act? It's not just you put yourself out there is that. Of course, you come with your vulnerability. It's part of the if you're not vulnerable, you're probably not interested enough. Just let's put that out. Vulnerability is a sign that I care that something important is happening here. I'm interested, and now I'm not sure. Are you interested, too? Are you interested as much as me? Did you think about me as much as I thought about you? Instead of wondering, how many words shall I send before I show myself to be too needy and too dependent? No. You know, if you put it out and the other person answers in kind, you know that something is happening between us.

[A]

Right. And if they don't, it's okay. Like, you will find someone else. Let's say someone finally is like, all right, Esther, I am going to approach dating now. I'm going to be less stressed. I'm going to allow myself to just move past that fear of the unpredictable. And I'm going to lean in. I think we've heard people say, you know, this person checks all my boxes. Right. In your opinion, when is it realistic to have a list of qualities you're looking for in a partner and when does that actually end up instead limiting you?

[B]

Every time I'm talk to, I think about the list the checklist, the boxes. This is, I always think, do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find? I mean it's like, what is this? This is the consumerism. I come with my checklist. I sit in front of you in a noisy bar and I'm going to ask my questions and see if you check my boxes. That is such an awful experience. And if you think that in the middle of that you're going to get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly, you're off the chart. Seriously.

[A]

It's so true. It's also like, who do you want to be?

[B]

How do you show up? Who, what do you want? It's like so product. You know, I'm by, I'm coming to check if you, you fit the product.

[A]

We're like, I want to get a product review. Like, yes. Are you a five stars? That's way like actually so humbling. And I. Do you do that? No, I was gonna say I'm married. And I even was like, because I used to do that. And I think it's so honest what you're saying. If like we all liquid inward half the time we have expectations for people that we don't even meet ourselves. Like some of the things I'm, I used to. Who do you want to be?

[B]

I mean, you want a person to have this, this, this. Who do you want to be? Right? What do you bring? What do you want to offer? What do you want to share? Who do you want them to think that they are in the presence of rather than this one sided, you know, this is, that's, you know, the, but the, the, the piece that would help a lot with that. Alex, is that, and I think that that's one of the most off things on the dating scene is that the dating takes place in a completely secluded place away from your life. Dating takes place either virtually, maybe at some point you'll finally get to meet somebody in flesh. And basically at some point, if you think something is really happening here, you'll have the big reveal and you'll bring this person to your, to your friends, to your, you know, to, to, to, to present them instead of bringing the person in your life. I'm going to, whatever. I'm going to hike tomorrow. I'm going to look for antiques tomorrow. I'm going to bike tomorrow. Do you want to join? Are you into this stuff? I'm going to the movies. I'm going with some friends. Join us. That is lower the stakes.

[A]

Lower the stakes. Esther that is such a big, brilliant and yet somehow simple concept that I don't know why we're not.

[B]

Because I tell you what I'm told. But that is so vulnerable about. Your friends may judge you, your friends may not like me, but your friends are the people that know you the most. They will see, they will tell you looks good, or they will tell you, no, not, not really, you know, and then you decide what you want anyway. But bring the person in your life if it doesn't work. My life didn't miss anything. Otherwise, what happens is three times a week I'm out there dating away from the people that I really care about and with whom I actually enjoy myself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I come back empty handed sometimes and I have to report of my bad dates.

[A]

Esther, we're done with first dates. Being alone. No, like, I'm. I'm not you. Like, as you're talking. I love it because, you know, it just made me think of something. I remember when I was dating, I had so much success when I would be at a bar or at an event with my friends and if I met a guy there. That's right. And he was with my friends and I, I ended up like, we'd have the best night and then we'd go on a one on one date eventually. But it weirdly let all of my kind of. My guard, like, was down and we

[B]

were grounded in your life.

[A]

And it was so, so the stakes were so low because I was like, I'm with my girls. If you blend in. And then I would watch him interact with my friends.

[B]

That's right. Data points. So many data points.

[A]

Guys, I think that Esther, probably we could just end it right here. We are no longer going on first dates that are just solo at a table. Awkwardly. Like, bring them when you are going out with your girls for drinks or bring them on the hike that you and your friends are going on. Be like, my friends and I are doing this. Want to meet up with us? How? Bring some of your friends.

[B]

That's right. I was gonna go do this. You can even do it alone. I was gonna go do this. Would you like to join me? Meet around an activity that is part of your life where you have a certain confidence already and you can share something. You bring, you know, and then you will see. You mean, you know, you'll come out of the movies, the theater, the whatever the show. And you say, oh, I have nothing left to say. And then you say, it was nice. And then you still enjoy the show or you'll Actually see. Do you want to continue talking? Shall we go have a drink? Should we go have a bite? And it's, it's in context. And all those questions about when do you know? Will become very, very different if you have a context. Because this context gives you a felt sense. And a felt sense is intuitive.

[A]

And it's so much more important and accurate to your real life rather than your checklist of being like, okay, I remember I wanted to see if he does this and you're alone on your date and you're trying to hit your checklist, like that is.

[B]

Where do you, you live? Where did you go to school? Where did you grow up? What do you do?

[A]

Like, are you applying to be my assistant or.

[B]

It's a job interview. Okay, it's a job interview. It's not, it's not the beginning of a, of a story. I mean, you know, relationships are stories. A first date is the first page of a story and it will either be a short story or a novel.

[A]

It's interesting because let's say, and I know everyone is obviously different and every circumstance is unique, but let's say, Esther, someone is like, okay, I am in the dating world, I'm taking all of your notes so far, but could you help me in what traits are actually important to care about in a future partner? Like, what should someone really be actually focusing on if they're looking for a long term person in their life?

[B]

I wish I could give you a blanket answer, but it really depends on you. You know, relationships thrive in complementarity. I am a person who is very solid, says one. I structure my life. I'm reliable. But sometimes I wish I was a little bit more flowy. I wish I was more spontaneous. I wish I didn't overthink things. And I welcome someone in my life that actually is more fluid, is more spontaneous, is, is less, you know, rigid like that, and vice versa. That's a complementarity that's very common. If I can give you basic sets of human traits, yes. Find someone who is decent. Number one. Number one, decency. Find someone who is kind, who enjoys giving, who likes to think about others and isn't just constantly making sure that they are the bigger piece on their plate. Find someone who, for some of us, it's for someone who can rejoice, who really can wake up in a good mood, because that's something that doesn't always happen to me. Find someone who, if it matters to you, has a sense of family. Find someone who has a sense of religion. If it matters to you, find someone who loves to travel. If it matters to you, find someone who can tolerate difference. But ask yourself also, can you tolerate difference?

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like look inward, look inward. Don't just, you know, expect. Because even that question can become a list too.

[A]

I agree with you. It's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because I agree it needs to compliment you. Is there anything quality wise that you actually think we should start to devalue though, as a society that people are looking too much for and, and that's not what we should be focused on?

[B]

Yeah, I think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on the self and on the optimization of the self and on the self hacking and on the self fulfillment and the self worth and the self awareness and the self, self, self and. And then even when you ask what should I look for in a partner? It's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each other's needs that we can cultivate together? It's very different to say a we versus a you who is going to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself. You know, you live in a big world. There's a lot of things to think about besides just me.

[A]

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[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction into our dating lives. What is the benefit of doing that? And can you explain what that even means?

[B]

What that even means? When I said to you before that our technologies, our predictive technologies are trying to remove all the inconveniences. What they're trying to do is present you with a very polished life where there is no friction, no obstacles, nothing that you have to work through, which traditionally has always been seen as that which gives you a sense of resilience, that which gives you experience, that which is necessary for child development. It's true for little kids as well. They need friction. They need to resolve problems. They need to figure it out. They need to make mistakes and correct it. So do we. So that's friction. Besides that, I'm a sex therapist as well, and we have a. There's a beautiful formula of Jack Morin, a major sexologist who that says attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire. Obstacle is friction. It makes me want more when I don't have. And I have to reach out and I have to seduce and I have to be imaginative rather than. It's right in my Lap.

[A]

Well, and I was going to say, I think it's important, too, to clarify, like, what is the difference between good friction and bad friction? Because I don't want any girls going like, oh, wow, we need to fight. We need to fight to feel the thrill. Last year.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about toxicity. I'm talking about friction. Talking about this. That creates heat. It's really that. It's the ability to tolerate difference. It's the idea that other people will have very different versions of what just happened and they're sitting right side by side with you. It's tolerance for conflict. It's rupture and repair. Friction is all the paradoxes or the contradictions that we feel in relationships. Attraction and disgust, care and aggression. Rupture and repair. Trust and betrayal. These polarities are intrinsic. They are part and parcel of every relationship. They come and go. They move. You know, the moments when you are deeply trusting and moments where you are suspicious. There are moments where you think, I can't take another minute of this. And then the next minute you think, I can't take another day without.

[A]

Makes me think a little bit. And I feel like we all have those people in our life where you kind of hear that friend be like, oh, my partner and I never fight. We never even get in little arguments, like, what is your take on that

[B]

trouble on the horizon? You're no, because, you know, conflict avoidance or only doing that, which we both like. We only see the movies, the two of us, like, we only go to the bands, the two of us, like. Like, we create sameness at all cost. You know, at some point it starts to feel like in order not to lose you, I ended up losing major chunks of me every relationship. And you asked me before, you know, what are the things to look for? And I will answer it a little differently. I think that one of the most important tensions for all relationships every dating story will have this is how do I connect to you without losing me? And how do I stay connected to me without losing you? In every relationship, you will find that there is one person that is often more in touch with the fear of losing the other, and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. And they often meet. You can give me any list you want. This is not what you look at when you are a couples therapist. What drew you together has very little to do with, we like the same Band and we like hiking the same mountains, and we both like skiing and outdoors, and none of it, or we are foodies. That is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamics. So when you never fight, you are trying to basically smooth out the wrinkles, the differences, the tensions, the autonomy, because this is how you negotiate separateness and togetherness. This is probably the most important task of any relationship. What should you be trying? What am I looking for? You're looking for someone with whom you can and depends if you are capable, too, to negotiate what is together and what is autonomous. Where are we separate? Your friends, your activities, your interests, your careers, your family. And what is ours. What is the we and what is the me? That's what happens in relationships. You can have the most common tastes with your partner. If these things don't work, that's where you will have trouble.

[A]

You know, it's interesting because follow me. Not only do I follow you, I'm already in my head. Being like that needs to be clipped. And every human being needs to watch that clip because what the. No, no. Like it. It's so real when you're talking about how in relationships, like, one is more afraid of being abandoned and one is more afraid of losing the sense of self. Like, if everyone just pauses you. I know who I am in the relationship with my husband in that dynamic. And, like, I'm sure.

[B]

Are you the same with him as you were with others? Because it's not static.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

It changes from relationship to relationship. It's not like I'm always in that position because my attachment style is always the same changes. It changes.

[A]

You need to go through some friction because you need to see how you two argue. And I'm not saying arguing is healthy, but, like, at some point, human beings cannot just go through life and just have no issues. That's just not how life goes. So it's like the beginning of relationships. It is sometimes important to see if you are almost compatible in the way that you handle conflict. And I think a lot of people can be like, oh, we're getting married. We haven't had one issue. Do you think it's concerning if people have never had one problem and already, like, we're getting married, We've never fought a day in our life.

[B]

Oh, it's just a matter of time. At some point they will. They will. But here's the thing. The research is very clear on this, Alex. It's really not so much the conflict itself as the repair. There are couples that are way more Volatile. They bicker more, they argue more, it's faster, it escalates. It's really. Can they make up? And how do they make up? And do they make up just by kind of smoothing it over? Or they make up and they actually are able to acknowledge what they. They contributed to the argument. And the repair is more important than the actual conflict.

[A]

And when you get to repair, how important is compatibility then in communication styles,

[B]

what matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles, but accountability. It's the ability to say, I was threatened and I just lashed out on you. I just said things that I wish I didn't say. But when I'm scared or when I fight, I sometimes don't know where to stop. I take full responsibility for this. I realized that when I said that, I was not paying attention to what you had said before, to your needs, to what you had asked from me, to how I let you down. It's the ability to take responsibility without shame.

[A]

And do you suggest or again, does it not matter? Should repair happen in the moment or can you wait?

[B]

Great question. So some people can do it in the moment. Other people need 20 minutes, two hours, or two days. So if you are with someone who needs two days, don't start talking in the moment. They're totally dysregulated. They can't listen. They're not yet there. Wait. But this is what happens is that you have one person who needs to make sure that we don't go to bed upset, upset, upset, and the other one who just doesn't not, don't give me one more word or I'm gonna explode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is where you. One needs to learn to engage sooner and one needs to learn to wait longer.

[A]

Yeah. That's something that I've always found interesting in the dance of relations.

[B]

That's friction, by the way.

[A]

And also there has to be a level of respect. Right. Because I remember my husband, I, in the beginning days, he would want to handle it immediately. And I would be like, I need a second. That's right. And then we, we would both like, like. And then it would. We almost need to find our common ground of like, okay, I can't go into a hole for three days and ignore you. So I'm going to. We need to find our middle ground of where we both can respect each other. That you need some reprieve right now. You can't just be waiting for three days. And also, I though can't have this conversation in 20 minutes. So where can you meet in the middle again? That just takes accountability. Right?

[B]

It's accountability and it's acknowledgment of the differences.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's. You're needing the three days is not because of me. You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to calm down and whatever history you come with. And the most important piece about it is not to personalize it. Then I can say, look after a day, because I'm not sure that you like the three days. Maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to do it because, you know, you wait. You wait. You wait till all the nervous system kind of sets back in. You've gone three times to do sports. Whatever you needed to do to kind of, you know, get yourself back to ground zero. I could help you, actually. That's the thing. I may actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not going to lose face. And you don't have to feel like you're giving in and giving up if you talk to me two days before and I'm not going to attack you. Can we sit and just look at what happened here? So I'll help you with the three days. It's not just the middle, because it's nice to meet in the middle ground. It's that I have something you don't have.

[A]

Right. Because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself. Like there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way and why I acted that way.

[B]

Where did you learn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To need three days. I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical thing is to say, what do you fight about? Rather than what is it that you're fighting for? And when you look at what people fight for, Howard Markman summarized it really beautifully. He's a researcher on couples, and he said people fight about a few major things. The first one is people fight for power and control. Whose decisions matter most, whose needs get priority, who gets to decide. Much of our fighting is actually about power and control. It doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids or the parents or my activities or your friends. The second thing we fight about is care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Will you look out for me? Can I rely on you? And we don't say I fight about trust. We fight about, you didn't call me and you didn't tell me we're going to be Late. And you didn't tell me that you had visited these people, and you didn't share that with me. And. And I didn't know. You tell ChatGPT this and that, you know, care and closeness. And the third one is respect and recognition. Do you value me when you didn't invite me to join you? We can talk about how I wasn't included, but the issue is I didn't feel valued. I don't feel like I'm important in your life. So power and control, care and closeness and respect and recognition. Power, trust, and value. That's what most fights are about. If you get away from all the. What you will actually understand why. Why people get so upset.

[A]

It's so. Does that mean I'm so happy you're here. I'm gonna say that a million times today. It's so real because I can already see it. I'm sure everyone else Ken that's watching. It's like you're. You're. You're venting to your friend, and it's like I'm waiting for him to text me, and I'm. I'm. It's driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner, and he never even invited me. And I just don't, like, I don't even understand. I'm just so over it. I'm done. And I, like, actually hate him, and I'm over it. And what you're saying is like, okay, slow down for a second because this is someone you love and get underneath, like, what is it that's actually upsetting you? And that probably would fall, I would assume, in. Into the category the last one, right?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Where you're just like. You're looking for the recognition, and you want to be respected and seen and a part of their life.

[B]

You want to feel like you mean something to someone. And when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me, you didn't include me, I'm like, you know, mashed potatoes. I don't feel valued. That's hurts. I don't feel valued.

[A]

And I think what you had said earlier, even in the dating that really applies to this is. Is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is so much almost a lot of time in no matter what argument it is also starts in power in terms of, like. I don't want to admit I was wrong here or whatever, but it also is power in terms of like. It requires you to actually get vulnerable.

[B]

You know, what is the Most beautiful power. One of them. There's so many. But. But I have often said to people in sessions, I'm trying to think about an episode on the podcast that people could go listen to that kind of instantly speaks to that, where I say, the person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Do you understand?

[A]

Roll that again. Because we feel the weakest. Right?

[B]

Exactly. And especially those for whom this feels weakening. To admit, to acknowledge, to take responsibility, to say, I made a mistake or I was wrong or I went too far.

[A]

Why do they have the most power?

[B]

Because if I say that to you, it is more likely that you will say, a, thank you. B, I appreciate this. Three, you feel seen. Four, you realize that we're both in this together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And five, it's not so bad. I can get over it. Because my admission is all you needed. I don't need to stretch myself on the floor and shame myself and make my. I'm just simply saying to you, it's this. It's that gesture with my head. I know. I see. I own it. I take my responsibility. And then usually what do you do? You say, well, I wasn't at my best either.

[A]

Right. Then they'll meet you.

[B]

You meet me there. You meet me there. That's power. That's power, too. Rather than power over.

[A]

I was gonna say. Because there's such a difference between. I was gonna be like, okay, power sounds negative, right? Power sounds like you have something over people. Because I remember growing up, my mom would always say, like. Like the person who cares the least in the relationship is all the power. And it pisses people off when you say that. They're like, that's not true. And it's like, no, no. The person who cares the least has all of the power. They don't give a. So you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to care and get them. And you're the one that's aggressive towards. And the other person can just sit back and be like, I'm chilling. That's toxic.

[B]

Why are you making such a big deal?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. You know, what's. What's the big deal? Can't you just. You know.

[A]

And that's toxic power. That's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship.

[B]

Why is it toxic?

[A]

Because you're.

[B]

What is the tone when you say what you just said?

[A]

I think it's. It's a imbalanced relationship in a way that feels manipulative.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like they're using there's a word for it.

[B]

What content. What, what stands out when you say what's the big deal? Why you need to to always over blow things. You always have to make such a big drama. You know, just, you know, just chill, just relax, just keep it in perspective. Just, just, just meaning what's wrong with you? And what's wrong with you says I have contempt, which is really the number one killer actually.

[A]

Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Spring is officially here. The time is perfect to refresh your home in your wardrobe shop Ross, where spring trends are everywhere. Find that flowy floral dress or the perfect sandal to kick off the season. Spring is also about creating new vibes at home and getting outside with outdoor entertaining essentials with brands you love at 20 to 60% off other retailers prices. New looks and vibes don't mean a huge price tag at Ross. You work your magic. Find your nearest ross@ross stores.com. call her daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Let's be real daddy gang. Picking a college is like, like picking a partner. Most of them won't make the cut. But hear me out. Southern New Hampshire University is different. They offer over 200 online degree programs, affordable tuition, and no set class times, literally. You deserve a college that's up to your standards. Visit Snhu. Edu Call Her Daddy to get started. When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're having in your relationship?

[B]

Every biography is a betrayal of someone else. You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who didn't ask to be spoken about. That's it by definition. I mean, this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before. Every person has a biography to write. So a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who then asked for the story to be told. Every biography is a betrayal. A small one, but it's a bit. Yes.

[A]

Okay, wait, but Esther, doesn't it. It helps you some degree process when

[B]

you get to oh, I didn't mean to say. Therefore you shouldn't tell.

[A]

You're like, oh, girl, get after it.

[B]

But you need to know that, right? That's what we do.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And I've, look, I've had more than one women in this instance, men in hetero relationships. Tell me, you know, if I knew it's about how much my partner, my girlfriend, my wife, whatever my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us, betrayal would be redefined. I think that There is often a sense among women, girls that it's not a betrayal because I'm talking to my best friend. Whereas for many people, many men who are much less likely to share that much about their girlfriends to their male friends, if they were to discover all what she is able to put out there, betrayal would be redefined. And I think that there is something to think about that, that now when you talk to your girlfriends, the question is this. Are you ever actually saying what you have done as well, or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you? And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say, look, everything starts with the name of the other person. Alex did this and Alex said that and Alex didn't. And you know what Alex and what Alex again did. Alex, Alex, Alex. At some point you want to say, and where is Esther in the story? And if Esther is not mentioned and what did you do? You know, I, when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story, and then when the other one arrives, it's like everything. This one left out is what this one starts with.

[A]

But how though, then, Esther, do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully isolating yourself from your friends and your family?

[B]

You. It's in the tone, it's in the way, of course, you come to your friends. I'm struggling with something. I don't know what to do. And good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen and just say, you will figure this out. I'm here for you if you need to. Sometimes I need to tell you this is what I think is happening now. You need to talk to her. You need to tell her what's happening with you. You, you know, you're dealing with loss, you're dealing with illness, you're dealing with children, you're dealing with no work, you're dealing with loss of your best friends, whatever you need to be able to, to talk. But talking is not the same as dishing.

[A]

Right? And also starting more with I statements rather than the constant. And then he did this and then

[B]

blame, blame, blame, and I'm the victim of the other person's doing. That is not always the case.

[A]

Interesting. I do find that, like emotional depth and intelligence. I think sometimes a lot of women write in just feeling like I really like him in the beginning, it's been fun, but like, I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough. And I'm starting to go to my friends and family When I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there. Like, how do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your life? Because that's a very elusive hard by

[B]

going outside of your own definition. Your what you think is emotionally intelligent may not be his vocabulary. And maybe the day something happens to you, he will show up and he'll deliver and he'll be there for you. Without many words we have many vocabularies. Words is one. And we are girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary. We talk, you know, partly because we've been taught to distrust our bodies. So we became masters of talk intimacy. But intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve of the only words. And by the way, we talk with our bodies for 18 months before we utter the first word. So our mother tongue is often physical. Emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility is different things. You know, if it's very, very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have these meaty conversations, know that up front. Know that up front. If you say discussing how I should handle my mother is not something that I do talk about with my boyfriend because I don't think that his advice then go to your girlfriends. Do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide. A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A girlfriend, if you're a girl is wanting a girlfriend. We need a community. You need to diversify better relationships, stronger relationships are often diversified. You know exactly when I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest, that's not where I go. I have my friends with whom I share those things and I have my friends with whom I talk about those things. That is not what I do with my partner. And that is okay.

[A]

It's okay. Okay, let's talk about cheating. We're back girl. Let's get into cheating. Everyone's oh so favorite topic.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

When there is infidelity. I think as of recent in because this didn't obviously used to be it like you know, in. In previous generations. But there is an expectation now it feels that the relationship has to end. If there is infidelity, especially when the woman is cheated on, there's a lot of shame from other women being like, you have to leave. You don't respect yourself. Get the out of that relationship. Why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying? And should there be that level of shame.

[B]

I love the question because. Because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between your grandmother and you. You know, when marriage was a one stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no choice but stay. Everything changed with divorce, with the democratization of divorce, with no fault divorce, and with women being in the workforce so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the destitution and the loss of their children. And now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self esteem, no self confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be. The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild, or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that your relationship is over and that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness has really become a challenge. And the younger you go, the more this takes place. This is the belief system of the moment.

[A]

And why do you think, Although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask you because I want your opinion. Like why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying? Because there are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know?

[B]

Yes, that is very cultural. When I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border, that is not the case. You only know it more from the women. You know, when a woman stays and is quiet about it, you may be sure that the silence of the man is even bigger. What kind of a man are you that you would stay with the woman? Nobody says what kind of a woman are you? We just say what kind of a low self esteem woman are you? But we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman. We just think about her strength of character with him. We say, what kind of a man are you that you let your wife, you couldn't control your wife do those things and you still choose to be with her. You're not a real man. So it's misleading to think that this is the pressure is more on women. The pressure is more overtly on women, but that pressure is usually even bigger on men.

[A]

Right. Because it's emasculating.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What conversations do you think need to take place in order to make the relationship work after someone has cheated? Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationships.

[B]

So I spent 10 years studying infidelity, wrote State of affairs about it and began to really. I have a list of 150 questions really, that it wasn't just one, But I think the most important set of questions come from this distinction. Try not to go for the facts. Where were you? When did you do it? How often did you do it? Did you do it standing? Did you do it lying? Did you keep your clothes on? Did you bring them to the house? Did you go for the meaning? What did it mean for you? Why do you think you did this? And what were you thinking about us as this was happening? And do you want me to forgive you? Or do you think I actually would be more respected by you if I didn't forgive you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like that from me? Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions. Questions.

[A]

Right. For the meaning.

[B]

Not for the meaning, not the fact, because it's in the meaning that you will also understand. Did it have anything to do with you or with your relationship? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you? Which is hard to believe, but is actually a lot of the time the case. Really, it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself, that I felt lonely, that I didn't really feel like you were giving me enough attention, or that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody's laughing at my jokes again, and, you know.

[A]

But is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person? Like, what drives someone to cheat?

[B]

Let me tell you in one sentence that that, to me, became a real. Sometimes I. People go to look for the gaze of another. Not because they're looking for another partner, but they're looking for another self. Not that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become. Oh, what they're dealing with is their depression, is their loss, is their grief, is their aging. Is there whatever issues inside is the way that they lost themselves into who, you know, they forgot who they are and all of that, and that's what they are reclaiming. And their sense is that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it, but it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it.

[A]

It's also so hard, though, because you're like, yes, it may not be about you, but it impacts you, obviously, so deeply. And it's almost. I wonder, for people, have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these couple, is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on to be like, I didn't do like, this is all about you. I couldn't. Like, it wasn't even. Because, like, I wasn't, like, having enough sex with you. Like, there's nothing I can change. You just were going to do this no matter what.

[B]

You were into women, you were into this.

[A]

Which is easier for someone to.

[B]

Depends who. So I think the most important piece that you're saying here is that every thinking about infidelity in a relationship is a dual perspective. What it meant to you and what it did to me. So the first thing in phase one is I need you to know what it did to me. You don't go instantly for what it meant, what it did to me, how you hurt me, how you deceived me, how you lied to me, how you betrayed me, how you were duplicitous, all of that. And do you feel bad about that? Do you experience guilt or remorse? If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start part. Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it meant, what you did to me with it, especially if it has nothing to do with me.

[A]

Even more so, do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner there?

[B]

If they don't, then you have a bad. It's a bad sign if they don't and if they only justify and they, you know. But those are also people who typically will say it's because of you. You're like, there's patterns here that kind of goes together. So generally, I give you an out because I'm telling you, even if you had good reasons and you don't feel guilty about what you did, you need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your partner.

[A]

Have empathy.

[B]

Have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and the accountability. It's two parts. And then what are you doing to give value back to your relationship? You now have to prove to your partner, because a betrayal is a devaluation of the other person. I didn't think of you. I didn't care about what it would do to you. I put myself first. It's all of that. What are you doing now to redeem the relationship? And that's on you. And that one of the main ways you do it is that instead of waiting for me to ask you another question, did you. Did you come to this restaurant? Did you take her here? Did you go there? You are the one who say, when we pass in Front of the restaurant. And we drive there, and you say, we didn't come here. And you preempt me. Because what you think is that all my questions is because I want to make your life difficult. That's not the case. I question you a hundred times the same question. Because what you did has just shattered my reality. And I don't trust myself anymore because I thought I knew my reality, and now I think that everything I thought was real was actually possibly not. So I come back to ask you the same thing because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality. Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

[A]

It's like, must be so hard, too, because I could see. See the person that cheated wants to move forward, but the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually. If I'm deciding to move forward, I'm not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like, did you come to this restaurant? But I would love if you could meet me there. In trying to just fill in the gaps for me so I don't have all these question marks.

[B]

If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learn to trust you again. That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt. Because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about what happen happened. I'm the only one who's hurt and the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship. I know you're in it with me, and that allows me to then think about something else.

[A]

Even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated, that is the beginning of repair.

[B]

Sometimes. But sometimes, before you ask a question, and this I'm going to say to all our viewers here, ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question, or do you want your partner to know that you have the question?

[A]

Give me an example.

[B]

Did you fall in love with her? Did you think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out?

[A]

Wait. What if we do want to know those questions? I'm like, did he?

[B]

Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know the answer to your question? Because then you have to deal with the consequences of knowing.

[A]

I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love, if. If my husband cheated on me. And I think I would need to know, like, are you in love with her? Because then, like, we have to be done, right? Go be with her.

[B]

That's you, right?

[A]

Some people don't want to know, but

[B]

another person in very different set of

[A]

circumstances, I would ask. Yes, I would need that.

[B]

Fair enough.

[A]

Because that for me would just be

[B]

like, but you just answered me. I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing.

[A]

I see. And some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer, I'm willing to work through this.

[B]

I just did an episode on. On my podcast, a 25 year affair.

[A]

He has 25 years.

[B]

Yeah. So that's not necessarily for the. For our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave because she's also very clear that they actually had a very good marriage throughout those 25 years. And that is true, too. And things are not so black and white. And it is not my job to tell this person nor any friend's job to tell this person and talk about the shame, because 25 years, you have a lot. She doesn't want the family to know because she doesn't want them to pity her for staying with him. And she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're all despising him. So she's not carrying the secret about the secret.

[A]

Right. And the shame. It. That's so.

[B]

And we don't have. We can't be so judgmental about that.

[A]

No, we can't. It's like, I've had people on the show before that have come on and talked about staying after cheating and the way the Internet has just, yes, like, torn these women apart. And it's like, but it's their life. And everyone's like, well, you don't respect yourself and you. And it's like, like. But do you know that? Do you really. You don't know that this person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it. Like, why are you so triggered? It's her life.

[B]

Look, everything on where should we begin? Was to say to people, we don't really know what's happening in the private lives of other couples. And it's very easy these days because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform you want without any consequences.

[A]

Consequence is there, Esther, A timeline in terms, as a couple therapist that you're like, repair should fall within a little bit of this timeline. If not, like, we. You can't keep going back and forth of like, you cheated. I need these answers. And we're five years down the line. Or can it just be forever?

[B]

No, no, I think, I think yeah, you can be forever, but you will be stuck in a marital cell, you know, or a relational cell of any sort. No, I think that sometimes if, if you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you can't find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision. Or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that was necessary and your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you're five minutes late, you may need to think about that. What do you want to do? So no, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, in and in blame cycles all the time. But at the same time for some people, they still prefer that you know, and, and you make sense of it. You understand why they prefer that you understand the stories and the relate the childhoods they've had, etc. It's very important for us not to become the public square that oozes with judgment about, as if we know when we don't. We don't know if people are also taking care of elderly or sick children or there are other reasons.

[A]

I love that too. Just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening. Like we all have those people in our life that, whether it's your sister or your friend or whoever that stays. There is understandably a anger within you as someone who loves them because you are protective of them and you, you think I want better for them. But again, we all know the extreme level of, of intricate detail that goes into why we are who we are that no one will ever understand. Even if you explain so many times, like you're living in your own body with your own trauma and your own history. And so as much as you say you want better for them, if they genuinely are saying to you this is what they want at some capacity, you have to also relinquish control of trying to dictate other people's lives, because what does it affect you?

[B]

So there are two parts of what they want that I think are often not spoken up. It's one thing to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self trust your own self confidence and the idea that you could have made a bad decision, that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself, that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you, that you purposefully didn't stay with the person with whom you had much more passion and much more intensity. You chose someone who was safe and stable, and you thought, that person will never cheat on me. My ex did that. And then this person does it. And then you have to deal with your own reckoning. So that's one. The second one is that sometimes you stay not because you're weak and because you let the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself that you know that you contributed in some way too. I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people see connection elsewhere.

[A]

Call Her Daddy is brought to you by the Mushroom Council. Do you ever feel like you just don't have enough time to make really tasty meals at home? And it's easier than you think. How about this, Daddy gang? Just get some mushrooms. Mushrooms are super easy to cook with. Just chop them up and sizzle them in a pan for a few minutes, and they're crispy, savory. Oh, they're so delicious. Use them in literally anything. Pasta scrambles, tacos, stir fries. It's so easy, and it makes you look like a total genius who knows how to make very impressive, really good meals that are really good for you. I think sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves of like, oh, my God, I need to need to go to the grocery store and I need to concoct this next brilliant thing. Or we go on the Internet and we're like, seeing people do 19 step programs, and it's like, guys, you don't need to do that. Get sizzlingushroomcouncil.com or just, like, stock up on mushrooms and start cooking them. It's really that easy. It's not magic. It's mushrooms. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. There has been so many times in my career where I wanted a guest, and I was like, you know what the fastest and probably easiest way to get them is? I'm just gonna DM them. We don't to need need to go through a bunch of different people. I'm just going to do it direct. Okay, Daddy gang, If you want to get on people's radar, sometimes you have to make it personal. Send a note, tell them why you're the one they should be talking to. And the same goes if you're looking for a job. If you think about it, like, let an employer know that you're really interested in their job. And if it helps you stand out from other applicants, then why not do it right. The best way to do this, though, is Zip Recruiter. ZipRecruiter matches you up with the right jobs in minutes. And ZipRecruiter has a new feature that lets you be seen first. Just tell the employer why you're interested in the role and your application jumps to the top of their list. In fact, you nearly double your chances of talking to an employer. If you're really interested in that job, make sure they know. With ZipRecruiter, go to this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter.com/dummy right now to see what a difference it makes in your job search. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com/dummy. Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest, most prominent issues in every single relationship. Not every single, but a majority is like when you and your partner have different ideas of intimacy, of how much you want it, of how often. Like physical intimacy. Physical intimacy like touch, affection. Touch, affection, sex. Like, what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?

[B]

I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with. And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it. What's the, you know, and then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before. And then, I mean, it's just like, you know, and then you only talk about it when there is crisis for a lot of people in, by the way, connecting it to the previous question. Infidelity becomes the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that they put under the rug for a long time. And finally, you know, the hits the fan. So now we start to discuss all our grievances, our resentments, our longings, our disappointments, our unfulfilled needs, etc. Etc.

[A]

And it's like, had you talked about that, no, maybe it wouldn't have gotten there.

[B]

No. And monogamy and all of those issues, it's like, you know, it and, and more so in straight couples, actually, you know, especially around monogamy and questions like that and exclusion and boundaries and all of that. So then there is, what do we talk about? What is candid communication, you know, around physicality. It's even, I touch you do you like it? I just saw you twitch, you know. Do you want me to continue? Shall I stop instead of guessing? They seem to like it. They don't seem to like it. I don't know. You know I do. They don't respond. Is it because of me? Is it because they're tired? Is it, you know, okay, I won't do it anymore. Ask, check in, talk. Sometimes you may get unpleasant answers. That's okay. So that's the first thing. Then you have discrepancy of desire. You know what happened there? I think that there is a big difference between sex and eroticism. Between doing the act, for which you may do a lot and feel very little, and doing very little, for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination. Touch. Meaning why the experience of it rather than just the act of it. It's not just. Sex is not just something you do. It's a place you go. It's where a lot of things happen there. So what happens to you? That's a question. Where do you go? Why do you hold back? What ignites you? What blocks you? Is it on your mind? Is it not on your mind? Is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about? Does it hurt? And you never say anything. In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. And many times women, girls wanted less. Not because they're less interested in it, but because it's not the sex that they want. That's not what they're looking forward to. So how much are you able to express that? Sometimes you do it in writing. Sometimes you do it by playing a game. Sometimes. There are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about. I mean, let's be facing that too. You take a subject on which that has constantly been hidden and suddenly you need to be able to be all eloquent about so that. Not so easy. It's difficult.

[A]

It's so difficult. And it's. That's such a great point even to just ease all of our minds. Like, I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward and to talk about it with your partner. Because sometimes from what I've experienced in the past and what people have written into me is like. It just feels like if I approach this, it's going to come off like I'm not happy. And then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex. Because he's just going to be thinking about, like. Like, well, you literally just complained that you're, like, not enjoying it. And it's like, no. The way that you approach the conversation can dictate so much of how it

[B]

goes, the way you do it. You know, I wrote mating in captivity 20 years ago, all about, what is desire in relationship? How do we sustain it? Then I did the desire bundle. It's a whole course with these kinds of questions. And one of the things I understood is one of the main shifts that we as women need to do is instead of saying, I don't enjoy it, is to say, I would enjoy it a lot more if I very much like when you do, and I would love it if you did more. Go with what you ask for. Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex. They have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their preferences, their like likes. Go to your partner, male, female, them, and say, you know, I like when I would love if. It would please me a lot if you could do that. That's a way to not have the other person. The next time saying, oh, I don't want to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like. You know, now I've lost my entire sense of confidence. I thought you liked it and because

[A]

you faked it, that I love that so much too, because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner in every aspect of life, and then this thing over here, that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship, you never talk about. So then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled by it, I understandably the other person's like, how long have you been feeling this way?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, holy, right?

[B]

What did I not know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How did I miss it? You know, you. That's a form of lying too sometimes, by the way. That is a betrayal, too. For six years, you haven't said a

[A]

thing to me because what are they supposed to do?

[B]

Or you've been fantasizing about someone else, or you've been not liking it and pretending to me. That sometimes hurts no less than you've been because you've been elsewhere. Whether you've been elsewhere alone or you've been elsewhere, I feel like you have just, you know, I thought I was with you in this, and I've just discovered that I Was by myself.

[A]

Let's talk about codependency.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're in a serious relationship, understandably, your lives become fused together. Right. You do so many things together. You're living together most of the time. What are some signs? Signs, though, that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully codependent.

[B]

When you are cold, I'm not instantly cold. You've got your own body temperature. And I can say, oh, that's interesting. I can't say, how can you be cold? I'm not cold. Why should you be cold? I'm. I'm the thermometer. When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry. Hungry. When you're tired or when I'm tired, you're not instantly tired. We have a different system. But somehow when you're upset or when you're sad or when you're anxious or worried, that instantly makes me anxious. Because your feelings are my feelings. If you're unhappy, that makes me unhappy. Or I think that you're unhappy because it's me. What did I do? What did I do? What's wrong? So I use the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately understand it when it's physical. They understand where I stop and where you start. We are two separate people. We are close. We are not fused. We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you. But when it comes to the emotional level, for many of us, that is not how we grew up either. We grew up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings, their needs to become our needs. And so we have not known where to know. Where is the line where I stop and you start. That's where codependency lives.

[A]

If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Esther? There's a chance. There is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship. And I do, like, love my partner. And I think we've just, like, fallen into this. And it's really. It's not toxic by choice like it just happened. What are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship?

[B]

I think the first thing you do is what. What belongs to you and what belongs to them. Don't personalize. It's a strange thing. It's what you said before. You know, somehow it. Sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing to do with you. It's like, I would rather be part of a bad story than not be Part of the story at all. Cast me, please.

[A]

That's like, literally the entire Internet. They're like, this isn't my life. This isn't my situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, wait, why?

[B]

You know, it's like, it's not your story. And. And if. When. And you know sometimes what it means, because a friend can tell you something, and you don't instantly think it's you.

[A]

Why do people personalize it, though?

[B]

Because there are only two relationships that really mirror each other. The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers, and the one you have in your romantic intimacies. Those two match. People can tell you, I don't have this with any of my friends. Friends. And I believe them. I don't. You don't. I'm sure you know, to maintain that differentiation is what we call this, that there are two people here, and when one person feels something, the other person can feel for them, but they're not feeling the same thing as them.

[A]

Esther, I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am so happy that you came today because I needed. And I know the Daddy Gang needed all of this. I think even from the beginning, the Daddy, Daddy Gang. Oh, they're still the Daddy Gang.

[B]

Remember the first time?

[A]

I know, right? I mean, I remember the first time you said it, and you were like, daddy Gang, listen to me. And I was like, esther Perel, just acknowledge the Daddy Gang. That was. Oh, my. That was everything. And it still is. I am gonna go back and listen to this and, like, take notes. I have so many thoughts. I have so many episodes I want to make, like, from this episode. You're so wise and you're so brilliant, and you're so warm and generous with your time, and I just can't thank you enough for taking your time, because I know you're so busy to, like, sit down with me and give us and impart all of your wisdom on the Daddy Gang and myself.

[B]

I care about it, and I see people struggling more and more, and I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives. You know, it's like, you have Daddy Gang. I have. The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships, and everything else follows from there.

[A]

I can't thank you enough to be here. Oh, there's. So we can do another episode soon. We have so many topics we could have covered. I'm like, I know we went even for longer than I expected, but thank you, thank you. Thank you for all of your success. I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society. Truly and like. Thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time anytime. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Sephora. I cannot explain the importance that my mother has played in my life. And Mother's Day is coming up and your time to show all the moms in your life that they are deeply loved is officially here. Daddy Gang, this year, forget the same old gifts and give something more personal. Sephora's gorgeous Mother's Day gift sets are perfectly curated to delight every mom, every taste. Whether it's a skincare set for a self care ritual or a fragrance that's uniquely her, a gift from Sephora is what moms really want for Mother's Day. Shop Mother's Day gifts at Sephora. Daddy Gang, you know my priority in life is to be comfortable at all times of the day. I love a good hoodie, I love some cozy sweatpants and and lately I have been loving and living in my hands free Skechers slip ins. Let me tell you something, okay? These have been a game changer for me when it comes to footwear. I love that I don't have to bend down and put these on. You can literally just slip right into them and you're good to go. I don't even have to deal with laces. Okay? I have seriously tied these shoes one time and I've never had to do it again. I'm usually the type of person that's just cramming my feet into my tied sneakers because I'm just too lazy to, you know, reach down and undo them. But these shoes are actually built for that genius. Okay? The best part is there are a ton of styles and colors to choose from. So whether you need a sandal or a sneaker or even a high performance running shoe, there is truly something for everyone. Every shoe is designed to feel like pillows under your feet because Skechers takes comfort as seriously as we all do. Also, the shoes are both affordable and machine washable, so you can now pay less and keep them looking newer longer. If you're ready to upgrade your footwear game and say insanely comfortable, head to Skechers.com for the biggest selection in the world, plus all the hard to find styles. That's [e-mail] call her daddy is brought to you by Hidden Valley Ranch. I can't even begin to describe what Hidden Valley Ranch means to me. You know, this goes back to the OG days of basically when I came out of the womb. I have been eating Hidden Valley Ranch with everything since day one. Okay, and guess what? Cooking with Hidden Valley Ranch seasoning can really up your flavor game. If you are not doing this, you are missing out. If you are new to cooking, maybe the kitchen can be a little intimidating. Okay, I speak from experience, but the Hidden Valley Ranch seasoning adds extra zesty flavor that makes meal time easy. Add Hidden Valley Ranch seasoning to your chicken before baking for an easy weeknight dinner. It's the only seasoning you'll need to take your food up a notch. And if you want to really impress your guests, grab some Hidden Valley Ranch Dip mix and whip up a delicious spinach dip, a quick and easy crowd pleaser. No matter how you like to enjoy, Hidden Valley Ranch adds flavor to every bite. Find your favorite Hidden Valley ranch [e-mail] Hidden Valley.