Paris Jackson: Love, Loss, & Listening to Your Intuition

Summary

Call Her Daddy: Paris Jackson – Love, Loss, & Listening to Your Intuition

Host: Alex Cooper
Guest: Paris Jackson
Date: August 12, 2026
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

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Episode Overview

This episode features musician, model, and public figure Paris Jackson for a deeply personal conversation about growing up in the world’s spotlight, coping with loss, self-discovery, addiction and recovery, breaking patterns in relationships, and her creative life. Host Alex Cooper and Paris share candid insights on intuition, healing, boundaries, and the journey toward self-love—all through Paris’s unique lens as Michael Jackson’s daughter forging her own artistic and personal path.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Astrology & Personality (04:02–09:10)

• Fun, relatable start: Paris and Alex connect over star signs, with Paris sharing she’s an “Aries sun and rising” (05:10), and Alex discovering she’s a “double Leo” with an Aquarius moon.
• Quote: “What’s really cool about having the rising and sun matching is it’s very ‘what you see is what you get.’” — Paris (05:26)
• Discussion about full moon rituals and how astrology plays a part in self-awareness but shouldn’t be overemphasized via daily horoscopes.
• Paris shares experiences with “Saturn return” and how life upheavals can be catalysts for identity shifts.

2. Growing Up a Jackson (09:10–15:40)

• Paris describes music as innate:
  Quote: “It's kind of like asking a dolphin what was it like when you entered the water…music was around all the time.” (09:54)
• Was surrounded by classical music and the Beatles in her early life.
• Growing up at Neverland: rides and attractions were “not for us, they were for underprivileged and terminally ill children” (11:09–12:20).
• Strict upbringing: homeschooled, limited TV (“only for study”), and strict reward systems.

3. Family, Loss & Early Pressures (15:40–22:49)

• Her father (Michael Jackson) was “really funny…he was my best friend.” (15:40)
• She was the only girl among three brothers; noticed efforts to keep love equal but also saw double standards (e.g., boys had more freedom).
• On meeting her mother as a teen:
  Quote: “If I walk into a relationship with expectations, probably gonna end up being maybe disappointed...when I don't have expectations, it creates this really cool space for something organic to blossom.” (18:10)
• Realized the scope of her dad’s fame gradually, through crowds and media.
• Wearing masks in public was about being able to experience normalcy: “If you do this now, then you can go to Chuck E. Cheese and be normal this weekend…” (20:15)
• Feels her unusual childhood now lets her “assist other people” with empathy and advice.

4. Processing Loss & Shifting Mindsets (25:56–29:37)

• Paris did a perspective exercise: writing life events “through the eyes of the victim” and then through a more “zoomed out” lens. This helped her see traumatic events as “points of initiation.”
• Quote: “It does become my responsibility to heal and to start taking care of myself…How do I use this to be of service to someone else?” (29:03)

5. Addiction, Sobriety, & Recovery (31:34–43:11)

• Early tendencies toward addiction (“graspiness with everything,” starting around age 7-9).
• First experiences with substances in 8th–9th grade, with self-harm as an early “survival skill.”
• Alcohol: “It brought out this version of myself that I really didn’t like – I’m a cunt.” (36:01)
• Realized the need for help when blackout stories became more alarming; sobriety began in early 2020, just before COVID.
• Paris stresses the necessity of community in recovery:
  Quote: “I’ve heard people say the opposite of addiction is connection.” (38:40)
• Recovery brought discomfort but spurred deep self-reflection and improvement in relationships.
• Newfound self-love now positively affects her songwriting: writing more honestly for herself and others, including songs for close friends.

6. Love, Relationships, and Healing Patterns (43:36–56:53)

• Discussing themes from her single “Zombies in Love”, Paris notes escaping with another addict was never “sustainable”—sobriety revealed this.
• Breakup after engagement described as “one of the best things” she’s done:
  Quote: “I did this whole thing… I’m not going to date/flirt/eye contact for months… It was uncomfortable but… a full-blown reset.” (45:34)
• Rejects “sunk cost fallacy” in relationships—puts happiness and non-negotiables above past investment: Quote: “Just because someone is a good person doesn’t mean they’re my person… my non-negotiables are allowed to be non-negotiables.” (48:22)
• Recognizes that sometimes romantic choices come from wounds that others can “never fully fill.”

7. Ending Relationships, Boundaries, and Codependency (59:25–64:12)

• On ending relationships:
  Quote: “Tapering doesn’t work. No contact is one of the most effective and rapid ways of healing.” (60:27)
• Her song “Stitched” addresses codependency—recovery is similar: cold turkey and refocusing on self.
• Emphasizes the importance of being in “right relationship with oneself” before seeking connections with others.

8. Self-Love, Intimacy, and New Standards (64:55–68:20)

• Intimacy now means “safety, trust, and a bit of spiritual connection” above mere physicality.
• Non-negotiables: laughter, creativity, spiritual and emotional connection, not carrying relationship “weight” alone.
• She now insists on friendship as the bedrock of romance.

9. Music, Pressure, and Artistic Integrity (68:00–76:58)

• Navigates pressure of being Michael Jackson’s daughter by choosing authenticity: Quote: “If you’re going to try and turn someone into something that is one of a kind, when no one else has been able to, you’re going to make yourself miserable doing that.” (68:43)
• Album inspiration: made for her “freshman year self”—fun, loud, grunge, less about perfection, more about what brings her joy.
• Hardest song to write: “Sirens,” about a friend’s overdose.
• Growth and current phase in life:
  Quote: “I would say [my life’s] in D major, the happiest chord there is.” (75:54)

10. On Resilience and Growth (76:19–77:39)

• Most proud of her “relentlessness”: Quote: “Keep on trucking, man… Open minded, willing.” (76:19)
• Her openness in art and life now reflects her growing self-acceptance and joy in being fully herself.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On family bonds: “I definitely was daddy’s little princess…there’s just this special, special bond that you can’t put into words.” (16:17)
• On her healing philosophy: “Everything happens for a reason—whether I’m going to see that reason now or…50 years later, or when I die—I don’t know. But one day, it’s going to make sense.” (21:31)
• On sobriety discomfort: “This discomfort is medicine. And sometimes we don’t want to take our medicine because it tastes like shit, but it does what it needs to do.” (41:02)
• On music & legacy: “I’m doing what sounds good to me and feels right to me…that’s not really my business what other people think of me.” (68:43)
• On defining current self: “I would say: D major, like, the happiest chord there is.” (75:54)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:02 – Astrology & birth charts: Paris reads Alex’s chart
• 09:54 – Early memories of music in the Jackson household
• 11:09 – Paris describes a “normal day” at Neverland
• 15:40 – Personal portrait of Michael Jackson as a father
• 18:10 – Meeting her mother for the first time in her teens
• 25:56 – Processing loss: writing from the victim vs. creator’s perspective
• 31:34 – Beginning of addictive behaviors and self-awareness
• 37:50 – Sober during COVID, finding community
• 43:36 – Healthy breakups, break patterns, building new self
• 48:22 – The realities of moving on: “My non-negotiables are allowed…”
• 60:27 – Best breakup advice: “No contact is the most effective...”
• 68:43 – Constructing musical identity apart from her father’s legend
• 75:54 – Defining her current phase of life: “D major, happiest chord”
• 76:19 – Pride in resilience: “Keep on trucking, man”

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone is warm, irreverent, honest, and empathetic—true to “Call Her Daddy” conversations. Paris is candid, occasionally explicit, snarky in her humor, and deeply self-aware. Alex is energetic, affirming, and pushes for relatable, real-life takeaways for her mostly young female audience. The conversation balances vulnerability with light banter and laughter.

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Final Thoughts

This is a layered episode about coming of age in the most unusual circumstances, surviving trauma, breaking generational cycles, and rebuilding a sense of self from the inside out. Paris emerges as a self-compassionate, self-aware artist unwilling to let family legacy or past mistakes define her current or future happiness. Her journey offers powerful lessons in self-love, resilience, and the importance of trusting your own intuition—one day at a time.

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For full details and stories, listen to the complete episode on your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I have been so excited to sit down with you today. I was thinking it. Since before you were even born, you have been in the public eye. Your dad was one of the most famous musicians of all time. And over the years, you've literally had to deal with loss and navigating recovery and relationships and just, like, finding your sense of self, all while doing it in front of the entire world. And so I am very excited to get to know you for you today. So thank you so much for being here.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Okay. I heard you are into astrology.

[B]

Yeah. I actually looked up your birth chart before I came here just because I. I saw in a video, I think it was on your Instagram, you were wearing an Aries necklace. I'm like, is she an Aries? And I looked it up and I'm like, no, she's a Leo. My girl.

[A]

Okay, wait, this is amazing, because I don't know that much. And I was like, I am so interested to hear your entire perspective on just like Leo's. You're an Aries? Yeah, my husband's an Aries. And we. For our wedding gifts we got each other, I wear his and he wears mine. And everyone always thinks I'm an Aries, but I'm a Leo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you like Leos?

[B]

My favorite women in my life are Leo women.

[A]

I feel like today is gonna be a good day.

[B]

I think we're gonna have a good time also.

[A]

Isn't it a Full moon tonight.

[B]

Tomorrow night.

[A]

Tomorrow night.

[B]

Very exciting. But also what's really cool about your chart, I didn't scan through, like, all of your, like, houses and everything. I just kind of looked. Scanned at your. I just peaked at your major three. And you have. I don't know if you have a stellium. I didn't check to see if you have other LEO placements, but I did notice that your sun and your rising are both leo.

[A]

I am a double Leo. What does that mean?

[B]

So I am an Aries rising and an Aries sun. Well, I have a stellium. I think I have, like five or six Aries placements. Okay, so I'm very Aries. But what's really cool about having the rising and the sun matching is it's very, like, what you see is what you get.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

So when people meet me, they're like, yeah, you're very much an Aries. Because that's. That's my. That's how I present.

[A]

That is so helpful, though, to hear you say that when you're a double something. Because everyone's always like, oh, you're a double Leo. And I'm like, what does that mean? And then my. Is it. My moon is Aquarius.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I'm rising Leo and moon is Aquarius.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

I don't know exactly. You'd have to have someone. Honestly, Monica, who you met. She. She's the one that's like, we get out a pad and paper and will like, oh, yeah, you're. Oh, well, your Venus falls in his eighth house and that she'll, like, draw maps and stuff and do the whole thing. I'm not that good at it. I'm not fluent in that language at all. But I know bits and pieces from what I've picked up from. From people that I know that really study it. And the daily horoscope thing, I think, is because it's like, you know, the daily horoscope is not taking into consideration all of your houses and all of your planets. It's just looking at your sun. So it's going to be as vague as possible to fit as many into it. Whereas, like, you can meet someone that has, like, you know, maybe they've got, like a Sagittarius sun, but, like, every other sign is in Capricorn. They're gonna be more Capricorn than anything. So the daily horoscope is. I wouldn't recommend those. But when you get into the. The houses and the other planets and the degrees, that's when Stuff starts getting, like, really spooky, accurate.

[A]

I love it, though, because I. Every time I read about myself, I'm like, oh, that seems. That seems right. And I'm like, am I making that up or is it actually that acc. Speaking of full moons, though, is there anything that, like, you do when a full moon is coming?

[B]

I think that, like, different practices. I've picked things up and put them back down. There's lots of things that I've tried in the past. I used to do a lot of craft, and I had, like, a group of women that we'd get together under the full moon and, like, dance naked. And I definitely had a photo taken off of Instagram from, like, a full moon circle, but now it's kind of like, you know, I've done, like, fire ceremonies and things like that for the new moon or the full moon, but it's not something that I do every single month.

[A]

So was it just taken off of Instagram because you were just naked?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You were like, I tried.

[B]

I blurred out my nipples, but let a girl live.

[A]

I had a friend that was like, oh, my friends and I like, put water. I think they, like, say, like, outside and to, like, have the. Have you ever done that? Yeah, I do nothing.

[B]

That's like, yeah, that's like the standard. You know, the moon water, or, like, you know, you charge your crystals and stuff.

[A]

Saturn returns. You said you've gone through a couple Saturn returns. To anyone that's watching, it is like, how can I survive one? Do you have any advice for us?

[B]

I am in my Saturn return right now. It started actually on my brother's birthday this year, so I'm a little late. Mine's already 24.

[A]

Are we doing.

[B]

You know, it's funny because a close friend of mine is like, this too. My Saturn return might be one of the unremarkable ones just because of the. All of the calamity that happens earlier on. Because typically the Saturn return is what happens when I know people that have left the church they were a part of during that time, or they got a divorce during that time, or they became a mother during that time. It's kind of like so much of your life shifts, and it has a lot to do with identity. But so much has happened leading up to my Saturn return that I feel like maybe this is just one of the unremarkable ones. I could also be speaking too soon because we're only like, maybe it'll be the few months into it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, maybe it's gonna. You're like, my. There's been so many trials and tribulations that so far, this is feeling pretty easy.

[B]

Yeah, I'm chilling.

[A]

You're. You're kind of coasting. Literally every piece of wood we need to knock on. Okay, let's talk about, though, because I was thinking about so much of your life. Yes, there has been a lot that you have gone through. And how old are you? I'm 28 and you're only 28 years old. Music. Yeah, music has been such a huge part of your life. I know you have a new album coming out August 21st, and I want to get into all that, but I feel like to do it, we almost need to go back to the beginning because you are someone who literally came into this world, and music, it's like in your blood. What are your earliest memories around music being a part of your life?

[B]

It's kind of like asking a dolphin or a. Any kind of fish, like, what was it like when you entered the water? I mean, only because, like, it was around constantly. I was raised on, like, the Beatles catalog. I was raised on a lot of classical music. I was raised on, you know, Tchaikovsky. I always butcher name. I don't know if it's Debussy or Debussy, but, like, my dad used to say Debussy, and so I don't know if that's correct pronunciation. But, like, I grew up on a lot of just music was around all the time.

[A]

For those who don't know, your dad was Michael Jackson and you grew up in this place called Neverland, which I feel like has. Is like so famous and everyone like, thinks of that word and they almost like, think they know what that means. Known for the amusement parks and the zoo in the backyard, but you actually lived there. Can you just like, explain to someone, even maybe like our Gen Z people who aren't as familiar, like, what was a normal day in your childhood, like, at Neverland?

[B]

So. So I didn't grow up there. It was only the first few years of my life that I was there, and I'd wake up and I'd go to school.

[A]

Homeschooled, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'd wake up and we'd go to the room that was our classroom and we would go to school. And it's. It was made the cool, like, very congruent line throughout my childhood that kind of started there and then just continued on. Wherever we went was if you're good and you do your chores and you do your homework and you do the things that you're supposed to do. Then on the weekends, you can go see some animals and you can go ride some rides and you can go to the movies. It was made very, very clear that all of the attractions there were not for us. That did not belong to us. That was for, you know, underprivileged children and children that were terminally ill that couldn't go to, like, Disney. And that continued on even when we were. Because at one point, we, like, wouldn't stay in one place for more than a year, and we'd hotel hopped a lot. And so it was, you know, if we were living in Vegas and it's like, okay, if you're good, you can go to Circus Circus on the weekends. Or like, we were in, like, some random place in Virginia, like, okay, if you're good, you can go to Chuck E. Cheese this weekend. So it was always, you know, same thing with, like, television. Like, we weren't allowed to watch television or movies and stuff either, unless we were studying it for film with the sound off or, you know, it was on the weekends if we had, like, done everything we were supposed to.

[A]

Okay, so you weren't, like, running around at an amusement park when you're super.

[B]

Super would have been cool. No, I probably would have grown up to be an.

[A]

But no, no, but you were grounded, and you were like, we have our studies and maybe we'll get to see some of the animals at the zoo on the weekend. Yeah. Call her. Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. I took a recent trip with my girlfriends, and it was so amazing. It made me be like, all right, Matt, it's time that we need to book some type of baby moon. Like, we're not gonna get on a plane, but let's do another excursion. I've been liking going, you know, trying different locations. Right. And there is something about this time of year that makes you want to start planning that first fall trip. Whether it's a weekend with with friends, a cozy couple's getaway, or a family escape. And booking a home on airbnb can make the whole trip feel more special. One of the best parts of booking a home on Airbnb is having space to actually spend time together. You can cook breakfast before heading out, relax together at the end of the day, and stay in neighborhoods that help you experience more of the place that you're visiting and live like a local. If you want to spend less time running errands when you arrive, you also can order groceries for your trip through Airbnb. So it's easy to have Snacks and essentials delivered after you get there, which is such a game changer. I love to have snacks in the house, but I'm also like, wait, wait, wait, wait. But we got an itinerary. We got to make sure that we are actually maximizing our time. And sometimes that's not going to the grocery store. And they can do it all for you. If you're already thinking about your fall getaway, do yourself a favor and check out Airbnb first. Finding the right place to say can completely change the vibe of your trip. Call her Daddy is brought to you by Clorox Toilet Wand. Okay, here's the thing. Nobody likes cleaning the toilet. That would be weird if that was your favorite pastime. But Clorox Toilet Wand makes one of the most dreaded chores way easier. Okay? Instead of dealing with an old, nasty brush just sitting next to your toilet. Oh, like, actually like. No. Clorox Toilet Wand is an all in one cleaning system designed to make the whole process way better. Listen, when someone comes over to my house, I want it to feel clean. I want it to feel breezy, beautiful, gorgeous, and. Clorox Toilet Wand. I'm telling you guys, it. It's. Let me just say it saved me in a lot of moments, okay? It has really changed the game for me. The Clorox Toilet Wand kit comes with disposable scrubbing pads that are preloaded with cleaner, a long handle so you can stay far away, and a storage caddy that keeps everything together. It's literally perfect, you guys. Okay, the textured scrubbing pads foam on contact with the water to cut through tough stains for an easy, satisfying clean. No additional toilet cleaning gel needed. In fact, it kills 99.9 of viruses and bacteria. And when you done, you just toss the used scrubbing pad away and you never have to look at it again. Okay, everyone. We have our dorm rooms. We have our apartments. We have our homes. I don't care where you live, Daddy Gang, you need this. Throw away your gross toilet brush and join the millions of people keeping their toilet clean with the Clorox Toilet Wand. Grab yours today on Amazon. Use as directed. The world knew your dad is like the king of pop. But how would you have described your dad?

[B]

Really funny guy. That was my best friend.

[A]

Do you think that your humor is similar to his or different?

[B]

I think our humor usually tends to come from our siblings and parents. That's usually where it kind of. And also the region in which we grow up.

[A]

Three brothers. You're the only girl.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I feel like when you're the only girl in the family, correct me if I'm wrong. There's, like, a special treatment or there's, like, things that you can be like, oh, I'm the only girl. Like, I get to do XYZ with my parent because I'm the only girl. Did you have anything that was, like, your favorite thing that you got to do with your dad? Because you were the girl of the

[B]

family, there was definitely a focus on making sure the love felt equal. There was definitely, like, I. I definitely noticed an effort and. And treating everyone equally. I definitely was daddy's little princess. I think that just happens with. With sons and mothers and fathers and daughters. There's just this special, special bond that you can't put into words. But, I mean, it's. It's a bummer when you get a little bit older and. And, you know, like, when we started going to regular school, you know, my brothers could have sleepovers at their friends. Places, but I can only have my friends at. You know, like, there's certain rules that. That some. Some guys get a little more freedom.

[A]

Yes, they have. There's more leniency with boys than as a girl. You're like, wait, why? Why can't I? And it's like, well, unfortunately, the world we live in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You didn't really grow up with your mother. You didn't have a relationship with her when you were growing up. Right. How was that explained to you as a kid?

[B]

You know, eventually, I remember, you know, kind of asking about it when I was probably around, like, 10 or 11, and the answers I got were, you know, sufficient to me. She's like, oh, like, what's her name? And I got told her name, and I'm like, all right, cool. Like, it was, you know, moved on, and we connected when I was about 15 and then really started getting closer towards, like, my. The end of my teen years and things like that.

[A]

Thinking about you at 15 years old, Paris, and you're like, oh, you're gonna, like, meet your mom for the first time. Like, do you remember if you were nervous?

[B]

I think. I mean, I remember coming downstairs and she was in the living room with my grandma. I came in and I was just like, hey, Mom. And she was like, hi. I sat down, we talked for a second. Then we went out for the day and just like, hung out.

[A]

And you called her mom right away.

[B]

She. I mean, she's a. She's a sad. So she's got the fire. And I'm an Aries. I got the fire. We Just, you know, we're very. We're very similar. You know, I think what's really cool about my process, just in general, in all things, is learning how expectations kind of fuck us up. And if I walk into a relationship with expectations, probably gonna end up being maybe disappointed or frustrated or irritated or a resentment will be born or something, you know, And. And when I. Something and I don't have expectations, it creates this really cool space for something organic to just be. Blossom. Yeah.

[A]

But I do think that's, like, a pretty impressive approach at such a young age. Like, that's like a. That's. That's a lot of insight to have at 15.

[B]

I'd say I've gotten. It's gotten more refined. Okay, okay. Over the years, you figured it out. Yeah.

[A]

I also was thinking, like. Like something that I. I know you've said before is like. And similar to where you're like, I didn't know anything other than music. Like, you didn't really realize that your father for a while was famous. You've even publicly said, like, I didn't even know his name was Michael.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you think you started to realize, though? Like.

[B]

Well, I think I knew he was famous. I just didn't know how famous.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

I mean, yeah, I definitely. There was. There's definitely part of me that, like, when I looked out my hotel window and it was one of the times where, like, the alias didn't work and there's just, like, a sea of people with signs and stuff, I'm, like, there was. I'm not so naive to think, yeah, everyone experiences this, you know, I just didn't understand the lengths.

[A]

Something that I feel like so many people were obsessed with was, like, how your dad would have you and your brothers wear masks and, like, cover your faces when you would go out in public. How did you make sense of that, though, at the time when you were a kid being like, okay, put on your mask.

[B]

I mean, it just. It made sense because it was like, oh, yeah, if you do this now, then you can go to Chuck E. Cheese and be normal this weekend because no one will know who you are. Like, that. That made sense to me, but it

[A]

really pissed the press off.

[B]

What doesn't fair? What doesn't?

[A]

I think that people probably felt entitled to you guys as children of, like, he's this figure that we get and he's ours and. And we get to comment and look at him. Like, we should be able to see the children too, because he's. You're part of that entity. And that's obviously, that was a protection that was put in place for you guys. Did you ever feel like it was scary when you would go out and have masks on and people were trying to see your face? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. Trying to think, like, what scared me as a kid. Spiders. Loss. But I don't know that that was. Was scary. I always felt, you know, protected. We always had security and, you know, sometimes crowds would get a little crazy. But it was. There was still like this, you know, there's. There's an adult you can grab onto.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, but what's also so cool about all of it is seeing how my experience can assist other people. I have. I have a few other people in my life that are in pretty similar situations that are, you know, several years younger than me and I just get to be a friend and, you know, my phone's on. And like, that is the coolest thing with, with all things, whether it is, you know, being, you know, a female with certain scary experiences or, you know, being in the I from such a young age or being someone in recovery is like, I have all these experiences that I can use to give other people. And I never tell people what to do, but if they ask me, I'm like, well, this is what worked for me and this is what didn't work for me. Do with it as you will. And it's taken me a very long time to get to where I am right now. This last year has been the happiest year of my life. And thank God I'm in this place right now because I may not have said those exact words a few years ago, but yeah, where I'm at with it now is like, oh, everything happens for a reason. Whether I'm going to see that reason now or I'm going to see it in 50 years or I'm going to see it when I die. I don't know. But like one day it's going to make sense.

[A]

It's like you trust the universe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

You know, I did this really cool exercise last year where and I think this helps with my perspective shift on just in life where I wrote I wrote out just a short two page life story through the eyes of the victim. And then I sat with it and I went through and I wrote another two pages, same stories, but not through the eyes of the victim. And through this kind of zoomed out version and looking at like maybe these scary things that happened or these hardships that happened or whatever. And looking for what were points of initiation, what were points of like, you know, a jumping off point, what were, you know, these little pieces that would later be alchemized into medicine for other people. And so a lot of my perspective on, on things like that have just been like, oh, this was some form of energetic initiation to get me further along on my path.

[A]

What story was easier to write? The victim or the more zoomed out lens?

[B]

I say that because of where I was at at the time. Probably the zoomed out lens.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

I saw this Ram Dass thing recently that kind of explores the basically these, these two roles you can, you can be in which is either the victim or the creator. And he, I'm gonna butcher this. But he said something along the lines of anytime we are identifying with kind of just like our human selves, this is what I like. This is what I don't like. This is what how I spend my time, this is, you know, my hobby. This is a label that a family member or friend or maybe some online gave me. Anytime we are identifying with those things, we are in victim. When we shed ourselves of all of these roles and we shed ourselves of all of these labels and we get to our true essence, that is when we are in creat later. I've also seen these, this kind of outlook, it's like a through line across multiple cultures and even in some religions where there is this kind of like idea around true essence stripped of all these things that put us in a position of like maybe self pity or something like that.

[A]

I was talking to my mom about this the other day. She always has said to me, like, there are things that can have happened to you that are, are horrible, but you have to choose to live with victim mentality. And if you do that, then you are essentially saying that I have no autonomy over my life. There are moments where you did not have autonomy and something happened to you and you actually were a victim. But to live in the victim mentality, like you're stripping yourself of any ability to have power. Then where do you get to rise up and be like, I'm no, I'm in control now.

[B]

What?

[A]

So you're constantly just everyone Else is in control of you, and you have no control over your own life. So I get what you're saying there, where it's like, you have to. Some way, at some point, it does

[B]

become my responsibility to heal and to start taking care of myself and to be like, okay, this. This God awful thing happened. How do I use this to be

[A]

of service to someone else completely and in some capacity. It does. Then that actually takes first, you putting yourself first. It.

[B]

It feeds into my life purpose. It feeds into giving me life, you know? So, like, I. I don't. I don't like the idea of people having regrets. I don't.

[A]

I agree. You know, were you being that young? Was there any question of you, like, speaking at the memorial? Or were you like, I want to do this?

[B]

Oh, it kind of just happened in the moment. It was kind of like, yeah, but on stage or. It was like a. They looked and they're like, are one of the kids gonna say something? And no one moved, so I was like, fuck it, we ball. And like, it was just like this. It. Yeah, it just happened. That's. That's a big reason why it's like, okay, this must have been some kind of energetic initiation. And so, you know, and it's funny because a lot of my life has been spent in front of, you know, microphones. And did you feel any pressure in that moment? Well, because when eyes. When eyes turn and they're like, someone's gotta say something. I don't. I. I have not gone back to watch it, to see how quickly it all happened, but it felt like it happened very slowly. And it felt like someone's got to say something. Little bro's not gonna do it. Older bro's not moving. All right.

[A]

You just spoke from the heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After that point in your life, I feel like everything, it seems like, shifted. You went to live with your grandmother, Right. How was that time in your life? Life? You're processing grief, you're going through loss, you're publicly. Everyone's looking at you. Talk to me. What was that like?

[B]

That was rough, dude. That was like, I didn't have social skills. I'd been hanging out with, like, cousins and my brothers and, like, adults, so I didn't know how to interact with peers very well, so had a crash course and. And gaining social skills for sure.

[A]

And I feel like I've seen you've talked about how, like, you, like, hung out with more. Like, whether you sought, like, older friends or you just were around adults more in your life. How do you think that kind of made you grow up maybe faster than other peers your age. I don't know.

[B]

I think I was very live fast and hard. I was. I wanted to grow up fast. There was something in me that wanted to live as much life as possible. And I think maybe that contributed to some poor choices in my young adulthood life and whatever, but I just wanted to experience everything.

[A]

When you look back, do you think you can like, pinpoint like the why?

[B]

I just had a graspiness with everything, you know, I'm just the type of. I have that kind of addictive personality where I will be reachy and graspy and find ways to get into consuming relationships with all things. Whereas like, like, for example, I know some people that, you know, I'm the type of person that, like, if I have a hit of weed or a drink, I'm going to go back on heroin. But I know some other people that, you know, they messed around with heroin and now they can like have a drink at a party or they can do like MDMA at a festival. I don't know what that is. I think everyone's maybe different, but I am just of the variety that is. I will turn Pilates into an addiction. I will turn rock climbing into an addiction. Like, I am just constantly historically reached outside of myself to find things to change or manage how I'm feeling and thinking. And so much of this last year being in. Now in my. I'm in my seventh year, so I have six years of recovery of like, okay, what's it like to be in right relationship with myself and what's it like to not be in consuming relationships with different things? I do have a consuming relationship with tobacco at the moment, but for the most part, just being like, okay, how can I be in just right relationship?

[A]

I want to talk a little bit more about what you were just talking about because you have been open not only about your addiction, but your journey to sobriety. And I love how you said earlier, like, things that you've gone through, you've been able to connect with so many people. And this is something you kind of, I know you said dealt with with in your teenage years. When do you remember your relationship to drugs and alcohol?

[B]

Kind of beginning probably 8th, 9th grade. But that kind of reachiness started much younger. I think I was maybe around like 7, 8, 9 when I started to just like, kind of reach for things outside of myself, whether it was a person or food or, you know, just survival skills. I would say, like, self harm, for example, is probably not a living skill. It's a survival skill, just things like that. It's kind of always been present. Just this idea of, like, I think I need something to help me manage.

[A]

And did anyone close to you when you were that young know that you were going through that?

[B]

I don't think so. I mean, I hit it well. I hit it well. I think. I think people that navigate through life managing that way tend to learn secrecy pretty well pretty quickly.

[A]

That's what I've. I've had a lot of people on. And people often talk about how they used, you know, substances to kind of, like, escape or numb feelings. What was your experience like? Was that. Does that resonate?

[B]

I mean, I. I enjoyed the effect produced by whatever I was doing. It was just to feel different, I think, than how I was feeling. So just controlling and managing my. My thoughts and feelings and just using other things to do that.

[A]

How were you feeling when you weren't using?

[B]

Restless, irritable, discontented. Just very, like, not comfortable in my own skin, you know. And that does tend to happen with a lot of people that, you know, are very. Just have very addictive personalities. When you just quit cold turkey and you don't have any kind of replacement program, you kind of have to. It's like a white knuckling process. And so going through life, white knuckling it is, is rough. And so there needs to be, I've found, for someone like me, some kind of replacement technique.

[A]

You've talked about how you were raised to have good morals, but alcohol kind of brought out this version of yourself that you really didn't. Like, I'm a cunt. Can you share when you started to realize that? And was it. You realize it through yourself or was it people telling you you.

[B]

I was starting to get. I was starting to hear stories of, like, what would happen when I was blacking out. And they started progressively getting worse, and I basically scared myself into getting help.

[A]

Oh, that's. I mean, I can imagine, like, how hard that is too, because at first, I don't know, like, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you want to be in denial at first because, like, this is something that you're using and it's making you feel good. And so to hear those stories at first, when do you think it went from you being like, that's not that. That's not that bad to like, oh, my God, maybe I do need to take these stories into account of what everyone's telling me and, like, I do need to listen.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it had happened in, like, end of 2019 because I got sober the first week of 2020. It was. Yeah, you know, I realized I. I couldn't stop up after I'd gotten rid of, like, some of the harder stuff. And I realized even with, you know, weed and alcohol, like, I just couldn't stop. And it was just getting worse. And it just. I had my breaking point. I had my. My bottom and just kind of did it for me. And so then it was like, okay, what do I do? What do I, you know, how do I rebuild the foundation? How do I, you know, come up with some kind of daily thing to keep. To keep me good and. And develop a spiritual life and find ways to be of service?

[A]

That must have been hard. That was during COVID So you were trying to get sober during COVID How was that?

[B]

This is really fun. It was really fun. I found a really cool community of, like, people that were somewhere around my age, some of them were a little bit younger, that were also newly sober. And we all just kind of like, hung out and, you know, spent almost every day together and. And it was, you know, I had this camaraderie and community and fellowship of like, okay, you know what I'm going through. I know what you're going through. And there's just this understanding. I think community is so important because I've. I've heard some people say that the opposite of addiction is connection. And so having that kind of like, I've got my people, they, you know, they've got me.

[A]

When you started to get sober, what was the self reflection on, like, how that time in your life had impacted the relationships? And did you also realize, like, certain relationships weren't serving you now that you were sober?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the people I was getting high with, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. Like my drug dealer, I probably shouldn't keep hanging out with them. You know, like, there. Those. There were some that were more obvious, and there were also some that took a lot longer to kind of, you know, I've had some friendship breakups that were worse than. Than, you know, romantic breakups, and those are devastating. But it's really started to shift in. In this last year, learning how to be in right relationship with myself. I've started noticing ripple effects in all of my relationships. Even, like one of my best friends, I would say my best friend who, you know, isn't in therapy, never really had any with drugs or alcohol and doesn't drink anymore, but still smokes weed. Like, just a very normal person. We have so much More we're able to have uncomfortable conversations. We're able that. That foster trust and safety and more closeness and more intimacy where. And we've been friends for 10 years, but it's like, really in the last year, I've. I've seen how adjusting how I am with myself is also affecting my relationships with friends, with family, like, with. You know, it's really cool.

[A]

That's incredible, Paris, because I feel like anyone in my life that I have personally dealt with, obviously who. I'm there with them when they're dealing with addiction or I've. Who I've interviewed, it's like there's something so beautiful when you do get to that point where you start to see yourself and pour love into yourself and you're not numbing and you're like, you essentially become lucid again and you're like, oh, my God. And first, it's uncomfortable. From what a lot of my friends have told me.

[B]

They're like, very uncomfortable.

[A]

I want to crawl out of my skin.

[B]

Very uncomfortable. But it's very like, hand on heart, gentle, gentle, like, move through it. This is medicine. This discomfort is medicine. And sometimes we don't want to take our fucking medicine because it tastes like shit, but it. It does what it needs to do.

[A]

And then you get to the point where you're now with your friend who you've had for 10 years, and to say that this sobriety and this place in your life where you're now able to pour so much self love into yourself has unlocked a complete different side of your relationship. I think that's what's been so beautiful, is everyone who sat in that chair and talked about such different experiences. But there is a commonality of like, oh, my God. Once you push through that really, really hard moment, and it's always going to be hard, but there is like, light at the end of the tunnel of like, oh, my God. I've never felt more connected to certain relationships and most importantly, myself. And how beautiful is that? That, like, you're. You're granted that at the end of that damn, it's.

[B]

I mean, there's nothing more rewarding. And I also see that it is affecting my songwriting. It's affecting my ability to express myself. I like, I wrote a song. I've only ever really written songs about, like, boys and heartbreak and drugs. And, you know, a few weeks ago I wrote song for my best friend and Vita put it up on Instagram and she loved it. And, like, we're both crying and it's just like this beautiful Like, I'm writing. I wrote a song about a friendship breakup recently, and I'm being more descriptive. I'm. I'm shying away from the vagueness that I used to. Because I used to think, like, oh, well, the more vague I am, the more people can, like, relate. And it's like, I'm just gonna write about my experience, and I'm just gonna be. You know, I'd be open for interpretation. Like, some of the lyrics are a little, like, you know, 40 seasons pass and silver l. Silver lines and tales to tell. That's 46. That's 10 years we've been friends. Silver lines is. She's starting to get gray hair. There's certain things in there where it's, like, little inside moments that she'll know what I'm saying, but other people won't. And then there's other things that are very specific. Like, the tagline in that little song that I wrote is like, if we're all just pieces of the people that we meet, you've got the biggest piece of me. That's not open for interpretation. That is exactly what it means.

[A]

Is it unsettling putting that out into the world? Because you are somewhat of a private person? You know?

[B]

You know, when it's art, it's. When it's art, that's a whole other thing. You know, like, there. There may be certain things that I may not want to talk about in an interview or I may not want to talk about on my Instagram, but, like, with. With art, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna share my experience, and then, you know, maybe I will talk about it later as it relates to the music.

[A]

But let's talk about your music. Yeah. Because there's a lot that inspired me, because a lot of what you. Yes. Write about are, like, thematically things that I love to talk about on the show. Your new single, Zombies in Love, it talks about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being in a relationship built around shared pain and escapism, essentially, when you look back at that relationship, like, how did that dynamic eventually become unsustainable for you?

[B]

I mean, we're trying on heroin, so I don't think it was ever sustainable. But getting sober.

[A]

Yeah. That allowed it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did that relationship teach you about healing on your own versus healing in a partnership?

[B]

That one, not so much. Just because the whole focus getting out of that was like, I'm newly sober. I need to, like, just not do drugs and alcohol. Like, that was the primary focus and it was really hunkering down and just doing a lot of work on myself surrounding addiction. This last breakup that I went through was a lot more like, oh, how do I not go back to old coping skills? Like I, yeah, I may, may be able to like not touch drugs and alcohol, but what are some other things? This, the graspiness. What else am I being graspy with that I can just not do, go in here, connect there and really just. That was a huge focus. I did this whole thing right. A lot of people I know I did for a long time, like, oh, I'll just get under someone to get over someone. That historically has never worked for me.

[A]

Me.

[B]

And going from person to person doesn't work for me. So it was very much like, I'm not even going to go on a date. I'm not going to flirt. I'm not going to do prolonged eye contact for like X amount of months.

[A]

Prolonged.

[B]

I'm not, I'm not going to. And you're going to know what I'm talking about because I'm not going to do an extended hug to see if they, just to see if they'll do it back and to see if I can. Because there is intrigue and there's validation in that that we're not doing any of that. We're just going to, we are tunnel vision, eyes on our own paper. We're locking in and we are just. It was one of the most uncomfortable at first. Uncomfortable. But one of the best things I ever did for myself. Full blown reset, full blown. Just like detox. And I really got my priorities straight. I really got the room to like be like, oh, what are the things that really make me happy? How do I listen to myself and listen to my intuition? Like my, my, my hearing has gotten a lot stronger. And yeah, that was one of the best things that I, that I could have done for myself after that split.

[A]

Can we talk about that though? Because last summer you called off your engagement and that is, that takes a lot of, I think, courage to end something when you have at one point decided, I want to spend the rest of my life with this person. And then obviously you, you ended it. I don't know who mutual. Was it a mutual decision?

[B]

It was, it was a choice that I needed to make to, to be happy.

[A]

Can you. With what you're comfortable? Because I have so many women who listen and it's like, like I feel like there is something that happens especially as women where we can get more sucked into like, oh my God, I've spent so much time with this person. I've invested in this. I've spent.

[B]

There's a name for that. I don't know what it is. My friend said it the other day. There is a name for that. When. Oh, because I've invested X amount of time, I have to keep going with it. Oh, well, that.

[A]

In business it's called the sunken cost fallacy, which is so unsexy. And that's probably not for. But it's not what it is. It's basically the sunken cost fallacy is like, if you have spent so much time pouring into this one project and then if, like, a better option arises, whether it's like, oh, my God, I see that I don't want this, or I see that this could. I could get this, but it could take two seconds. Even though I've spent years building this and it's going to be better for me, don't just stay with the thing because you've invested so much time in it. If it's not actually what's the best option for you? And so I can't help but wonder for you, like. Like, how did you know? Although I've invested in this publicly, I've spoken about it. There's a lot going on. How did you know you were. You made the right decision to end a engagement?

[B]

Well, as far as the public side of it goes, I've had people write about my breakups before, so it's not that big of a deal. This is also my second engagement that I called off the first one. I don't know if you could count the first one. It was real to me. Even though we were strung out on drugs and the ring was one that he bought with my money without me knowing, it was still like, the love was so real for me in that. That first one. So this was like. It was the second one. No, it wasn't. It wasn't that casual. No, it was very like, you know, I. There were times where I did try and end it, but there was this little voice being like, but what if. If, however long down the line, this is a voice that a lot of us have of. If I just hung in there a little bit longer, it would have gotten better. And so I'm the person that needs to be sure. Really, really needs to be sure. Even though I have a therapist, like a clinical psychologist, a coach, I have, you know, I have got a whole council of people, friends that. That know a lot about. About relationships and all the things that I was going through in life at the time that are like, honey, in asking me the right questions of like why would you stay? And my answers weren't good enough. My answers weren't good enough. Just because I've realized just because someone is a good person doesn't mean they're my person. And I have to be happy and, and I realize that my non negotiables are allowed to be non negotiables. And if these big major needs are not being met, it doesn't matter that you're a good person and you're not going to cheat on me. That's not a reason to stay. Paris especially also because I think, you know, I, I live in a city where it have, where, where loyalty is not the biggest thing. And so sometimes I maybe get it in my head that that's how most people are. I have some of the most incredible men in my life that love their wives, that love their kids, that are just such stand up dudes that would never dream shame of that up. So I know that that exists out there. Like I have, I can examine the evidence and be like, okay, like it does exist. This isn't the one and only person that's not going to do that to me.

[A]

No. Isn't that so sad that like we as women in if you are in a relationship, like a heterosexual relationship, you're like oh my God, this man. I'm convinced all of these men, she cheat, right? And so then you're like I found one that is like without a doubt, this loyalty. Oh my God, I would be an idiot to let this go. And it's like guys, it is kind of bare minimum for them to not cheat. Like we need to start looking at that. That's not a boundary. That's, that shouldn't even be a prerequisite. Like that is just like that is what a relationship is, is someone not cheating on you. So like. But we have been conditioned and I agree. And, and it's like why do we convince ourselves that that's enough? And then well, he's gonna, he won't cheat on me.

[B]

I, I was talking to my friend about this a few days ago because she likes my, you know, my take on, on relationships and certain things. And so I only share my experience and I don't give suggestions or advice ever. But you know, if sometimes when one thing is being met, we'll disregard hard the other things. And what was so awesome about like I'll give you an example for, for this person was she really wants like a kind of like a caretaker person and if there is a guy who does that one thing, she's like, cool. He's the one, and is not going to look at all the other things that make him one of the worst people to ever be with. But. And we're willing to overlook a lot of things and paint over them because this one thing is being that. And so the conversation kind of becomes about, okay, what's the need? Caretaking.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

How do I give that to myself so that when homie comes knocking, I'm like, I'm good on this. What else can you bring to the table? What are. What can you bring to the table that I don't already have covered? And what's been so cool about, you know, that that time that I took after my last relationship was allowing myself to kind of the clouds part. I'm not willing to overlook a bunch of things. I'm. I'm like, I can be a little bit pickier. You know, the bar can be raised a bit because it's historically been very low. And I remember, like, there was this one time once I was like, okay, I'm gonna chill. I'm not gonna, like, actively seek people out, but, like, if something happens, it happens. And, you know, there was someone, I got on the phone with him and it was a 15 minute phone call. And at one point he made a comment about like, yeah, I just can't picture my life without weed. And as someone that was one of the biggest stoners you will ever meet, like, I loved weed. That was one of my favorite things in the world. Like, to the point where, like, out of my friend group, I was the only one that was able to like, keep up with Snoop Dogg one time when we all smoked with him, which was like the coolest story ever to say that I was able to do that, do that. But where I'm at in life now, like, I don't judge it. I. Because I loved it so much. I understand when people want to do that, but because it's not a part of my life at all, I'm not gonna overlook that and be with someone that does it all day, every day. So I'm like, cool, okay, thanks for your time. Click. I'm not gonna even bother with the first date.

[A]

No, I love what you're saying so much. And I do think this all goes to, like, I'm so happy that it's so. I love my job because had we met a couple years ago, we would have had a fascinating conversation. And now that we're meeting here, we're also having A fascinating conversation because you're at such a different point in your life than you were a couple years ago. Same with me. And I love what you're talking about because when you get to that place where you start to analyze and realize, oh my God, if I can fill myself up in all these areas, these, these romantic partners are going to look so different. Cuz I'm not going to be like, there's this one wound that I have and it's this one thing, for example, the caregiver. Like, I need this person. If you don't need that anymore, then you're kind of like, what, what do you have? And you get to kind of look at the whole picture as opposed to them filling the void of whether it's your childhood trauma and this one person fits that one need and they fix it for you. Then you literally are just, you're, you're, you're putting yourself in a position where you are essentially accepting way less than you actually deserve. Deserve. Because you actually have to fill the void. They're never going to fill it. It's going to be a stop gap.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna say like. And like, and this is. I can only ever really speak from my experience if it is coming from a wounded place. If there's a specific trauma or specific wound. Even if, say they give you the exact script for reassurance that you wrote out for them, it's not gonna be enough. It's not, it's not gonna be enough.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

They can do everything right. Yes, it's not me enough.

[A]

Because you have to actually get whole within. Like you got, like, he can only help for so long or she can only help for so long. And then eventually, once they give you the 100% maximum effort on caregiving or, you know, whatever, validation or whatever, eventually you're still gonna go to sleep at night and it'd be like, like, ding, ding. I still don't feel whole in that area of my life. And you're going to realize, oh my God, I picked this person because I thought they could fill me up there. And guess what? That's nice. They do that for you. But you have to do it for you first. And when you realize that, you're like, okay, back to the drawing board. But that's what you just did. You went and you cleansed yourself. No eye contact, no long hugs. Paris, I'm dying. Every girl's been like, okay, maybe I need to try that, dude.

[B]

I'm very like, I'm very like, I am the Lead with the chin kind of person person where it's just like, oh, we're getting sober. We're going all the way. Oh, we're doing this. We're going all the way. I'm very much like, you know, stage dive into the audience at full speed. Don't hesitate like jump.

[A]

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[B]

Okay.

[A]

Can you give any advice on how to navigate a conversation where you are ending a relationship? Because the amount of women who write into me and are like, I'm staying half of the reason because I don't know how to end this. Like, that is heartbreaking to do to someone you love.

[B]

If. If homegirl's gotta stay in that so much to the point where she hits a breaking point before she finally has the conversation, then that's maybe the experience she needs to have. Just like, I'm not gonna.

[A]

I've.

[B]

I've had friends in recovery that, you know, I've gotten sober with, and they

[A]

go out,

[B]

what am I gonna do? Be like, you need to get sober. You need to stop drinking. I'm gonna tell you what to do that's gonna make them drink more. Like, like, that's, you know, it's like, hey, I'm here. You're going to go. If you need to go out and do more research and realize, like, oh, I have a problem, and I can't do this in moderation, that's the experience you need to have.

[A]

Is there anything that worked for you in the.

[B]

I will say what didn't work for me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this kind of goes across the board for, like, previous relationships. Tapering doesn't work. Tapering is not a. You know, and I see it happen also, like, I have a couple friends that, you know, aren't maybe in the middle of a divorce. And like, I see I can also observe and be like, oh, maybe this isn't just my experience. Tapering has not historically worked for me. And no contact is one of the most effective and rapid ways of healing. If I had to make a suggestion, a light suggestion, light. If there's any kind of spiritual practice you can bring into it before having the conversation, I would recommend that whether it's, you know, if you have a higher power or you have multiple higher powers, or it's the universe or it's literally anything, prayer, meditation, anything like that, that bringing that into it and, you know, honesty without causing harm, which is. It's. It's very much a case by case. You know, it's hard to give one blanketed. Here's the advice for everybody going through a break. Like, it's.

[A]

I agree. I agree with that. Another song off of your new album, Stitched. It seems to explore codependency in relationships a little bit. Yes.

[B]

Now, I could see how it be interpreted that way.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I kind of interpreted it that way. Yeah.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

But I guess that's like. That's what it's about.

[B]

That's what it's about 100%. This is a song about 100%.

[A]

You're like codependency through and through. Alex, I'm glad you. Have you ever experienced codependency?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How have you ever.

[B]

That's what my song's about.

[A]

Okay. So I wasn't completely.

[B]

For sure. Sure. For sure. I have. Of course.

[A]

Have you ever had it where you were in the situation where someone else realized that, you know, they didn't need you in the same way that you needed them? And how did you handle that? Unraveling? Because codependency is hard to unravel.

[B]

I mean, can be aligned in many ways with addiction. I. I've had. I've experienced it in so many different ways where I was the one that had to, like, set up some boundaries or. Or cut it off. And I've been on the other end of it as well. And it's. It's tough. I mean, I. I would say in a hypothetical situation, doing what I did last year of like, let's get right with me is. Is one of the best things, and let's get right with me, and let's get right with whatever. You know, not going to give it a name.

[A]

But no, I agree with you because it's like almost like when you have a codependent situation, it almost becomes this, like. I don't even want to say 50, 50 situation, but you kind of are giving half of yourself and then trying to make it that they're the other or more. Right. Yeah, you're right. It could be 70, 30, 80, whatever it is. And what you start to realize is, like, you're actually not operating 100% as yourself and. And as comfortable as codependency in the moment can be, and scary as it is to detach yourself from it, you're. The longer you prolong it, the more you're going to get so seeped into that experience, and it's going to be harder to remove. And so I agree with you. Sometimes, like cold turkey and removing yourself and then pouring into yourself is kind of the only Way to navigate getting out of a situation like that. It's hard.

[B]

It's really in a lot of just issues in general as far as like, you know, connection, relationships. And just like anything consuming, the opposite is, well, how do I be in right relationship with it, Whatever that thing is.

[A]

Could you see yourself getting engaged again?

[B]

I don't know. You know, it's a day at a time kind of thing for me. You know, I realize that if I spend so much time thinking about what the next 10, 15, 20, 30 years is going to look like, I'll get there and I'll look back and be like, damn, I didn't enjoy where I was when I was there. And I was just thinking about where I'm gonna be at now.

[A]

So are you staying single? Are we dating? Are we in a relationship? What's happening in Paris?

[B]

I'm happy.

[A]

That's all.

[B]

That's all I'm gonna say.

[A]

That's a good. You have been open about struggling with self love. We've talked about it a little bit. But where are you now sitting here like today at with that and what are things that you now are like. I will not tolerate that this, whether it's from yourself or a romantic partner.

[B]

As far as intimacy goes, genuine connection with a person.

[A]

Can you expand a little bit? Like what does intimacy look like to you?

[B]

Safety, trust. And there's a bit of spiritual connection in there too. Yeah, that's, that's just a non negotiable. Like I don't want to just like hook up with someone that's good and in bed. Like I don't.

[A]

Right. You're like, we've had that.

[B]

I, I just, I, I want actual love. Actual. You know. And my, my views on intimacy has changed. My views on, on a lot of non negotiables have changed. There needs to be some kind of like creativity involved in, in the connection. And I need a laugh with someone that has all of the letters. Like my diagnoses that I do as well as like my addiction, my cptsd and I just, I need a laugh. Life's too serious.

[A]

Are you usually the funnier one in the relationship?

[B]

I think it's dependent on the, on the person. Yeah. But, but in the, in the last, in the last few years I've definitely realized like I, I don't want to be, I don't want to carry the weight.

[A]

You don't want to bring it all.

[B]

Especially because like my best friend is like the funniest person I know and, and she's taught Me, a lot of, like, I think I get a lot of my humor from her because I've known her since I was a, you know, teenager. But, yeah, all my friends, my bandmates are so funny. My brothers are so funny. Like, everyone. It's. It's very important. It's so healing, and it's so what life is about sometimes.

[A]

Are you someone that historically, like, do you date people you've been friends with, or are you going, like, you're meeting someone and you're immediately going to be romantic with them?

[B]

I have learned I am the type of person that needs a foundation of friendship, and that's not. I definitely had issues with boundaries when I was younger, where it was just like, whatever, whoever kind of thing, like, I had hooked up with friends when I was younger and realized that, hey, you know, just because this is a really great friendship and we're in a really good place doesn't mean we need to take it further to make it better. And I've just learned that, you know, that's not for, you know, I just. I have. I'm learning boundaries and I'm learning that. But. But I also. Yeah, for sure. I. You know, my. As far as a partner goes, there's got to be a best friendship. There's got to be. You know, we gotta enjoy just hanging out. Yeah. Going out and doing nice dates and stuff. But, like, hang out, shoot the shit, have fun, make each other laugh. Like, that has to be.

[A]

Has to be there.

[B]

That's. Anonymous.

[A]

Negotiable. Speaking about your music, obviously, because the new album coming out, I was thinking about it being the daughter of literally one of the biggest musicians in history for the rest of time. I feel like there have been such expectations placed on you that have kind

[B]

of gonna make you miserable.

[A]

I was gonna say, they have nothing to do with you as a human being. It's. It's all. All because of, you know, who your father is. It's like somehow these things were placed on you too. How do you handle that pressure or how do you manage it? Because you're in the music business, right? And so, like,

[B]

you know, it's. I think, comparisons. The Thief of Joy. And as far as, like, what I choose to do, I'm literally just going with what feels good to me. It's like, oh, I really like the snare sound in this one pumpkin song. I really like the way he enunciates this word in this Manchester song. And I really like, you know, the guitar tone of this Bad Book song. Like, I'm. I'm doing what sounds good to me and feels right to me. And if other people have expectations of, well, you should go this route or you should do this genre or you should do this, you know, when you place expectations on other people, you're just going to end up sour about it. And that's not really my business what other people think of me. And also, if you're going to kind of, you know, try and turn someone into something that is one of a kind when no one else has been able to hold a light to that, you're gonna make yourself miserable doing that. But, yeah, I think. I do think it's a. It's. There's some humor to be found in, like, yeah, I'm doing a grunge show. I'm doing a rock show. I'm screaming into a microphone and someone's like, why didn't you moonwalk on stage? And it's like, that's the wrong show. Like, you know, I'm open up for Incubus, or I'm open up for, like, the Pretty Reckless. Like, this is not.

[A]

This is not that show, babe. This is not that show. That's. I love that perspective.

[B]

You get all my loafers, you know, Like, I just. I'm wearing combat boots.

[A]

We're not doing.

[B]

Not anatomically possible anyways.

[A]

What do you think your dad would think about your music?

[B]

I don't like speaking for other people, but based on what I knew about him wanting me to be happy, I think because I'm happy, he would be satisfied with that.

[A]

August 21st, the album comes out. Also, that's my birthday, by the way. We've got good juju here. My birthday, so thanks for the birthday.

[B]

I'll send you a vinyl.

[A]

Yeah, I'll be listening. Can you explain what the inspiration behind this album is?

[B]

It's not like, it's cohesive in sound as far as, like, the sonics and the production go, but it's not cohesive as far as storytelling goes. Like, my first record was a concept record, and it was like, if you listen in track order from start to finish, it tells a story. Story. This is kind of as far as what each song is about. They're all about different things. This. This album is for. Is for freshman year. Old P is like, freshman year Moody Love Nirvana and, like, Smashing Pumpkins and Pixies and Marcy Plyga. Just very. This is for her, you know, I'm like, what if I just made something that she would have thought was really cool? Cool, you know, it doesn't have to be like, wow, this is. This is like really well written music. It's just like. No, I just want it to sound fun and I want her to think that it's cool. And the thing is, it's like, I. I am a folk artist at heart. I will always be a singer, songwriter, folk artist. So that might be where I'm headed sonically in the future, but I'm like, oh. Like, once I realize, oh, I can scream and I can project like it. Let's do a fun, loud record.

[A]

What was the hardest song for you to write?

[B]

Write the hardest one for me to write. Have to see the set, the track list to think. Because some of these songs I wrote years ago, as far as emotions go, probably sirens.

[A]

That one's very emotional.

[B]

Yeah, that was about a buddy of mine that. That OD'd on my drugs and I had to handle that till the paramedics arrived. That was. That was a lot hot. Yeah.

[A]

How long ago did you write that song?

[B]

Well, it happened. I think it was 2018 when it happened. And then I think I wrote the song in 2021 or 2022, and then I recorded it with Butch Walker and I just kind of. It was just left on the back burner and I never really did anything with it. And then when I started working on this new record, I'm like, that fits the vibe of this. I'm going to just throw that on there. And that was. Yeah, I mean, that was. That was scary because in a situation like that, you know, even though I had experience with, you know, being a trained first responder, when you go into fight or flight, you. There's no. It's a gamble of how your brain's going to react. Just because you know what to do, your brain still might tell you to freeze and there's nothing you can do about it. So it was definitely a lucky situation. And. And the paramedics had said, like, you know, if you had gotten there any later, he either would be dead or brain dead. So, you know, and it's also definitely a testament to the whole, like, it takes what it takes because I still didn't get sober for another year and a half after that. Like, you'd think something scary like that of like.

[A]

Nope. No, that's such a good point. Like, like, it's like almost like how people talk about completely different. But like therapy, when people are like, you literally can't convince someone to get therapy to get help. Like, it has to be the person that finally something clicks in you and you're like, okay, today's the day family members try to convince, understandably, and it's like, you have to be.

[B]

The interventions suck, dude. Interventions suck. No one likes them. Everyone I talk to that's had them, we all hate them. You know what? Depending on the situation, if the person's ready, it works, or, you know, it will be one step further into planting that seed in that person that when they are ready, they will know where to go, and they will know what to do, and they will know how to handle it. Didn't work for me, though.

[A]

It's all right. You. You figured it out. If you are still in touch with that friend that you wrote Sirens about, have you shared it with him?

[B]

I've not shared that song, but I did have a really nice conversation with him probably about a year ago. We. We caught up, and it kind of, like, I was able to kind of address some of the things that went south during that time when I was a mess, and I'm like, this is where I'm at now. And these are the things that I'm kind of doing as, like, corrective measures daily to, like, no longer be that way.

[A]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

What song are you most excited to perform on tour?

[B]

Stitched is really fun to do, but there's. There's this other song that's not on the album, and it's not one that. That I'm gonna put out for a while, but I just finished recording it, and that one's probably, like, the most fun one to perform. I also really. I always do a cover of no Rain by Blind Melon, and we do, like, a rock version of. Of it, and I'm, like, shredding my voice on it, and it's fun, and the audience loves it, and the audience knows it because, like, they're not singing my own lyrics back to me, but they'll sing that one. So, you know, it's. It's a really good time. Yeah.

[A]

You've talked about how you've kind of reinvented yourself many times over the years. How would you describe this current phase of your life?

[B]

That you're in D major, like, the happiest chord there is. Oh, it's sometimes a very corny chord, but it's. Yeah, it's the happiest chord there is, I would say.

[A]

That's amazing. That makes me really happy.

[B]

Or a G, because it's so well rounded and complete.

[A]

Okay. Throughout all of your hardships and all of the growth that you've been through, what are you the Most proud of yourself for today.

[B]

Relentlessness. Keep on trucking, man.

[A]

Just fuck it.

[B]

Keep on trucking. Just keep going, you know, Open minded, willing.

[A]

I am so happy I got to sit down with you. I had obviously so much I wanted to ask you, and I really appreciate you being so open. I know you are a very private person, and I feel like, kind of like you said, like, it is very indicative of where you're at in your life, that your music, you're like, I used to write and like, kind of a lewd. And now it is kind of synonymous with what how you're living your life is like, you're pouring more in.

[B]

Like, you know, even going from like, my first record is very much like I'm singing in my head register and I'm like, very like, I. I want to hit the notes that other people are going to sound, that they're going to think it sounds like maybe pretty or whatever. And now I'm like, but that's. That's my head register. When I sing with my chest register, it's going to sound a little bit more abrasive. And thank God I listen to bands like Bright Eyes and Modest Mouse because they don't give a. And it's like that. That's what I want to emulate of just like, this is not gonna sound pretty. And this is. I'm not gonna do, like, the really nice, like, vocal runs of, like, a proper singer. I don't even consider myself a singer. So I'm like, just get it out. Do the thing.

[A]

Be full.

[B]

Yeah, in my fullness.

[A]

But it's translating also to your life. Like, everything you're talking about is like, you used to be. Understandably, like, you're like, I wasn't sharing as much. And not that you have to over share your actual life, but just being more open with yourself. Even the way that you've talked through this entire conversation of, like, I'm now pouring into myself. And therefore, it's kind of unlocking all these different sectors in your life that are growing even more than you could have imagined. Yeah. Than a couple years ago. Like, I'm so happy that I got to sit down with you and get to know you because you're a really interesting, fabulous person. Thank you, Paris. Thank you so much for coming on caller. Daddy, you were a dream guest.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

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