Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Call Her Daddy
• Host: Alex Cooper
• Guest: Penn Badgley
• Episode Title: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg
• Release Date: April 23, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Call Her Daddy, host Alex Cooper sits down with renowned actor Penn Badgley to delve deep into his multifaceted career, personal life, and the psychological complexities of his most iconic characters: Dan Humphrey from Gossip Girl and Joe Goldberg from You. The conversation spans Penn's early beginnings in acting, his experiences navigating fame, fatherhood, and his perspectives on modern relationships and masculinity.

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Early Life and Acting Career [02:03 - 07:16]

Penn Badgley opens up about his formative years, revealing that his passion for acting began at the tender age of 12 when he moved to Los Angeles. This significant relocation was amidst his parents' deteriorating marriage, a period marked by isolation and personal loss—the death of his pet cat shortly after the move ([08:13] Penn Badgley).

Penn Badgley [08:13]: "Birth is just, it's like, it's in my. You know what I mean? So actually when we thought we were just going to have one and we were close to being like, no, we're good... It felt like a known quantity."

The early onset of his acting career instilled a sense of responsibility and independence, making him financially independent by the age of 15. Penn reflects on the challenges of growing up in a single-parent household and how these experiences shaped his self-image and career trajectory.

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Relationship with Parents and Fatherhood [07:16 - 20:24]

Penn delves into his complex relationship with his parents, particularly highlighting the void he felt from his father post-divorce. Moving to Issaquah, Washington, and experiencing his parents' separation left him emotionally distant and self-conscious during his adolescence.

Penn Badgley [09:13]: "We lived in isolation... It was like all it is is, you're constantly being brought in touch with... that was all it is."

Transitioning into fatherhood, Penn shares profound insights about his approach to parenting. He emphasizes the importance of active listening and the simple yet powerful act of saying "I'm sorry." These practices mark a deliberate departure from traditional paternal stereotypes, aiming to foster a more empathetic and understanding environment for his children.

Penn Badgley [05:14]: "What comes to mind is listening and then saying, 'I'm sorry.' Those are two things that I think fathers are not..."

He recounts a pivotal moment when he apologized to his young son during a car seat struggle, underscoring his commitment to modeling positive behaviors and breaking generational cycles of emotional unavailability.

Penn Badgley [19:12]: "I was speaking in a way that I'd never spoken to before... I said, 'I'm sorry, I'm being really impatient with you.' And he just went, 'Yeah.'"

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Role in Gossip Girl and Character Analysis [20:24 - 42:49]

Penn discusses his tenure on Gossip Girl, portraying Dan Humphrey—an "awkward, nice guy" who contrasts with the more flamboyant characters of the show. He reflects on almost turning down the role due to his disillusionment with Hollywood at the age of 20, expressing concerns about typecasting and the lengthy commitments required by television contracts.

Penn Badgley [27:16]: "It's not just a meritocracy. I don't know what industry would be."

Despite initial reservations, Penn accepted the role, recognizing the opportunity to explore complex character traits and the depth that Dan Humphrey allowed him as an actor. He touches upon the challenges of balancing his personal identity with his on-screen persona, especially as fans often conflate the actor with the character.

Penn Badgley [35:24]: "I can see positives from that. So let's pay a little bit of respect to Dan."

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Personal Relationships and Modern Dating Views [42:49 - 61:33]

Shifting focus to his personal life, Penn candidly discusses his views on modern dating and relationships. He expresses skepticism about the concept of "casual dating," questioning its authenticity and the superficiality he perceives in contemporary romantic interactions.

Penn Badgley [60:22]: "Show me anyone who's able to have it. Truly."

Penn advocates for deeper emotional connections, highlighting his own journey through meaningful relationships, including his marriage. He underscores the importance of breaking away from toxic masculinity norms and fostering genuine intimacy built on mutual respect and understanding.

Penn Badgley [61:33]: "You have to always be learning new levels of listening because... that's another level of listening."

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Insights on Toxic Masculinity [61:33 - 68:47]

The conversation delves into the pervasive issue of toxic masculinity, with Penn articulating his commitment to redefining traditional male roles. He emphasizes vulnerability, empathy, and active participation in parenting as essential components of his approach to fatherhood and personal growth.

Penn Badgley [66:07]: "It's a lot... but it's really beautiful and rewarding."

Penn also touches upon the societal pressures that compel men to conform to outdated behavioral norms, advocating instead for a more emotionally intelligent and nurturing form of masculinity.

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Character Analysis: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg [68:47 - 76:24]

In the latter part of the episode, the focus shifts to the stark contrast between Dan Humphrey and Joe Goldberg, two of Penn's most iconic characters. While Dan embodies the archetype of the misunderstood, earnest protagonist, Joe represents the dark, obsessive antagonist.

Penn reflects on the psychological dimensions of portraying such divergent roles, discussing the emotional and physical demands of embodying characters with vastly different moral compasses.

Penn Badgley [71:31]: "So, so actually I would say in some ways it's quite fun. There's levels to it, day to day basis, kind of fun, kind of taxing."

He elaborates on the complexities of acting as someone like Joe Goldberg, navigating the fine line between character immersion and personal well-being. The discussion underscores the transformative power of acting while also highlighting the importance of maintaining one's identity outside of the roles portrayed.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts [76:24]

As the episode wraps up, Penn reflects on his journey, offering heartfelt advice to his younger self and listeners. He emphasizes the importance of emotional resilience, continual self-improvement, and the pursuit of authentic connections over societal expectations.

Penn Badgley [74:24]: "I would want to give him a really long hug... I would want to be the man, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have."

The episode concludes with Penn expressing gratitude for the opportunity to share his experiences and insights, leaving listeners with a profound understanding of the man behind the characters.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Penn Badgley [05:14]: "What comes to mind is listening and then saying, 'I'm sorry.' Those are two things that I think fathers are not..."

• Penn Badgley [19:12]: "I was speaking in a way that I'd never spoken to before... I said, 'I'm sorry, I'm being really impatient with you.' And he just went, 'Yeah.'"

• Penn Badgley [27:16]: "It's not just a meritocracy. I don't know what industry would be."

• Penn Badgley [35:24]: "I can see positives from that. So let's pay a little bit of respect to Dan."

• Penn Badgley [60:22]: "Show me anyone who's able to have it. Truly."

• Penn Badgley [61:33]: "You have to always be learning new levels of listening because... that's another level of listening."

• Penn Badgley [66:07]: "It's a lot... but it's really beautiful and rewarding."

• Penn Badgley [71:31]: "So, so actually I would say in some ways it's quite fun. There's levels to it, day to day basis, kind of fun, kind of taxing."

• Penn Badgley [74:24]: "I would want to give him a really long hug... I would want to be the man, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have."

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Key Takeaways

1. Early Challenges Shaped Penn's Resilience: Moving to LA at a young age amidst familial turmoil instilled a strong sense of independence and shaped his commitment to his craft.

2. Parenting with Empathy: Penn prioritizes active listening and genuine apologies in his role as a father, striving to break away from traditional paternal norms.

3. Navigating Fame and Identity: His role as Dan Humphrey brought both opportunities and challenges, particularly in maintaining his personal identity separate from his on-screen persona.

4. Redefining Masculinity: Penn advocates for emotional intelligence and vulnerability in men, rejecting toxic masculinity in favor of more nurturing and empathetic behaviors.

5. Complex Character Portrayals: Playing both Dan Humphrey and Joe Goldberg showcases Penn's versatility as an actor, highlighting his ability to navigate deeply contrasting character traits.

6. Insights on Modern Relationships: His skepticism towards casual dating emphasizes the value of deep, meaningful connections over superficial romantic interactions.

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Conclusion

Penn Badgley's candid and introspective conversation with Alex Cooper offers listeners a profound glimpse into the interplay between personal experiences and professional roles. From overcoming early life challenges to redefining fatherhood and masculinity, Penn's insights resonate deeply, providing valuable lessons on emotional resilience, authenticity, and the pursuit of meaningful relationships.

Transcript

[Alex Cooper]

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[Penn Badgley]

We love to be the best.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Guest]

If you've been having your McDonald's sausage McMuffin with an iced coffee from somewhere else, now is a great time to reconsider.

[Alex Cooper]

In the Pacific Northwest, it's never too.

[Penn Badgley]

Cold for an iced coffee in the morning.

[Alex Cooper]

Grab your yourself a medium caramel, French vanilla or classic iced coffee for just $2.29. Warning.

[Penn Badgley]

Beverage may cause craving for McMuffin or hash browns.

[Alex Cooper]

Prices and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal. What is up, Daddy gang?

[Penn Badgley]

It is your founding father, Alex Cooper.

[Alex Cooper]

With Call Her Daddy.

[Penn Badgley]

Penn Badgley. Welcome to Call Her Daddy.

[Guest]

Hello.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm so happy you're here. So you said this isn't normally what you would wear.

[Guest]

Is this what anyone would normally wear?

[Penn Badgley]

No. What would you usually be wearing?

[Guest]

I mean, just my clothes.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, like jeans, sweats.

[Guest]

No, no. I mean, no, I. I would wear. I would wear. So, I mean, the real answer, I have like three pairs of pants that I wear that I wear on rotation. Two of them are in all of the tiktoks I've ever made or any of my pod. I mean, it's just there's green pants and there's gray pants.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Everyone that follows you is like, oh.

[Alex Cooper]

There'S the green pants.

[Penn Badgley]

I know the green pants.

[Guest]

All I. So I think I got them right before the pandemic. This is, this is true. And then, you know, fatherhood pandemic, the fact that my job, I'm never wearing my own clothing when I'm working. I mean. And you know what they are? They're J. Crew. Unpaid. I wouldn't ever. I'm not a J. Crew boy at all. But they're just pants, you know?

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Love those three pants. Yeah. Your wife is pregnant.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

With twins.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Are you ready?

[Guest]

Who could be this. Yeah, as ready as we could be.

[Penn Badgley]

When you found out that you were having twins, what was the reaction and emotion?

[Guest]

Really gotta stretch for this coaster here.

[Penn Badgley]

I know. I'm like, I thought, no, I fucked up.

[Guest]

I fucked up. It's okay. It's okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, okay. Reaction.

[Guest]

Well, so my wife is a doula, so. So birth is a big part of our world. You know, for me, 38 year old man. I think I'm probably, you know, I happen to be. Birth is just, it's like, it's in my. You know what I mean? So. So actually when we thought we were just going to have one and we were close to being like, no, we're good. You know, we were, we were close. Then we decided, no, you know what, let's. Let's try it. And I think we thought maybe one would be, you know, we know what it is. We have two. We're surrounded by children and people who are having children. That's just kind of. I think it was like, we knew, like, yeah, it's going to be a lot, but it's felt like a known quantity. And then it was just, it was like, oh. Oh. This is how it will be. Very new.

[Penn Badgley]

Here we go.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. Adding two.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You guys are, you guys are gonna do incredible, but you're brave.

[Guest]

Yeah, No, I mean, it's, it's as, it's, it's. It's great. I mean, actually, to be honest, like, when we see the sonograms right now, seeing them together. So first of all, as an only child, you know, it's very touching to see them already so together. They're so together. They're just like. There was one shot of them where they look like they were just hanging out in a hot tub because they both were like up like this or at least in the sonogram. I don't know which direction was north or south here because, you know, it's its own world.

[Penn Badgley]

But they looked like they were having their own.

[Guest]

They were just, you know, they were sitting across from each other, just like talking shit, just sort of like twitching, you know, I mean, it's. And they're. They're in a different position every time we see them.

[Penn Badgley]

What do you think is your best dad quality currently?

[Guest]

What comes to mind is listening and then. And then saying, I'm sorry. You know, those are two things that I think fathers are not, you know, when men are getting a lot of shit. And these days, when are they not? Am I? But, you know, men can be good people. They can be great people. They can be great dads. Dads can be great. And unfortunately, there are enough of us who have shown us otherwise. Right. But fathers can be great. And I think. But what we do not attribute to a father much, I think, is saying something like, I'm sorry, and like, really listening and like, you know what I mean?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. I think that's like almost like baseline. People are like, oh, no. Just like, go to your mom if you have a mom, because the dad's not gonna listen. So I think it's, like, nice that you're.

[Guest]

I'm trying to be opposite there, just. Just in those at least. I mean, look, there are other things that I do. It's not like I can only listen and say I'm sorry. That would imply I'm just constantly messing up. And I know.

[Penn Badgley]

I'm like, damn, you're just constantly saying, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Guest]

You're you. And I'm sorry.

[Penn Badgley]

That's also what you have to do to your wife. Whenever I'm having a problem with my husband, he'll be like, what was I even thinking? I'm so sorry. I love you. I've learned better.

[Guest]

I Like, what was I even thinking? That's a nice.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Your podcast obviously focuses on people's, like, middle school experiences, so I kind of want to, like, go back a little bit today with you.

[Guest]

Yeah, sure.

[Penn Badgley]

Let's go back to yours. How would you have described yourself as a kid?

[Guest]

That's. Actually, I've thought about this. I'm not sure exactly how I saw myself. I think, well, what I can be sure about is that I was in that particular period of 12, 13, 14. I was a bit horrified by, like, very, very, very self conscious. Very, extremely self conscious about what? I mean, probably mostly the way that I looked and then also the way that I sounded. So those are the two, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

How did you sound?

[Guest]

Well, before my voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit of a high and nasally voice. And so also I moved to LA to become an actor when I was 12. So I was simultaneously pursuing, you know, this career and I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into, but I think that made me self conscious. So I mean everybody. I think a lot of people go through this and a lot of times it's just. It just is what it is. I was. I was pretty chubby and there was a period where I was fat, you know, and that happened to have a big impact on my. On the way I felt about myself. It did, it really did.

[Penn Badgley]

Because. Did you feel that way when you were alone or was it a lot of like people saying things about you? Because I feel like when you're at that age, it's always like kids are gonna make you realize, you're like, wait, my parents made me think I was great.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and for me, you know, the truth is, like I was a pretty constitutionally skinny kid and it was this period where my parents marriage was falling apart. We lived. We were really isolated. We lived in the middle of. We were on a mountain in. Outside of a town called Issaquah in Washington State. It might be quite developed now, but in the mid-90s it was not. And we had. We had moved very suddenly from the east coast, very far away, so. So. And my cat died on the third day of moving there. Just didn't come home. So I was like eight, I think, and. And I was just, you know, had no social outlet. The vibe at home was. Yeah, it was, you know, what happens when divorce is like quite needed. So yeah, I was, I was sad as. As kids can be. I think as many kids, you know, are as you're kind of coming into your consciousness.

[Penn Badgley]

But also I feel like, because I talked to my mom about this a lot because she was an only child and her parents didn't have a great relationship. So I feel like it makes you grow up pretty quickly because you are like. It's almost like you're one in three adults. It feels like immediately.

[Guest]

Yeah, that's. That's that part definitely. Like.

[Penn Badgley]

Which is not normal.

[Guest]

Yeah, well.

[Penn Badgley]

Or.

[Guest]

I mean, it's normal for you don't know. It's not normal.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. So being an only child, from your experience growing up, like, what. How would you have described your relationship with your parents?

[Guest]

That's an interesting question because I. Because from 12 years old on, my memories feel a bit void of parents. Even though my mom was present. I mean, I moved with my mom to la. Like, in fact, when I visit here now, you know, it's surreal. When I'm in places that I used to be when I was very young, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

So you moved when. And your parents got divorced around the time that you moved here for acting and did your dad stay?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

And your mom picked up and left with you?

[Guest]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of actor kids, this is the case because, like, why is a kid going to truly pick up and leave with one parent? Like, what's, you're not leaving, like, a flourishing family life behind? So that tended to be the pattern.

[Penn Badgley]

Is there, like, a core memory that comes to mind when you think about, like, a moment from your childhood where you remember being like, oh, my parents don't have the healthiest relationship?

[Guest]

Yeah. I mean, it's so early. So early. I don't even know. When I was 14, I, I, I saw my, my parents dance together. It was long after they've been divorced. It was at a function for a show I was on. It's like a. And they dance together for one song, and they, and they, and they sort of hugged and they. But what it was, it demonstrated a closeness that I didn't realize until years later when I was like, why do I remember this and think about it every now and then, you know, like, and because it made me uncomfortable. It made, it made me feel a type of way that I couldn't identify. But that is to say, they demonstrated a closeness that I had, like, you know, never seen them, them have, you know, there are two people who, they came together, like, who, you know, their parents. And the parents, like, they're, they're a generation where, like, they didn't have, they had so little modeling of, like, not only did they not have modeling, they didn't have, like, the consciousness that we have now around, you know, relationship dynamics, like, listening. And I'm saying, I'm sorry. You know, like, there was a, you know, they just, they, like, it's amazing that they stayed together long enough to have me and that they were like, yeah. And also, let's keep doing that. Like, I don't, I, you know, it all. They don't have a good answer for it. They. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

That's really interesting about the dancing thing, because I feel like I've talked to people before who are like, I literally. Because obviously you either replicate or try to do the opposite of what you watch your parents do from a young age. So for you to, like, watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old and be like, what are. This is so strange to watch them dance and, like, hug and be cordial, like, when you Were younger. Did you ever have romantic relationships that you felt comfortable being overly affectionate?

[Guest]

Yeah, well, actually, so this is. I think, at least for boys, I don't. I don't know. I know that it's not just me. I mean, I actually was. Because I was starved for many kinds of intimacy. The one kind that I understood, didn't understand it was sexual and romantic intimacy. So, I mean, I think as soon as those. I was going to try to think of a word other than juices, but, you know, those chemicals were flowing. That's. That's. That's when I just craved that crate. I mean, you know, and again, show me a teenager who doesn't really. I mean, I think for sure it's. It's of course, quite typical, but I think particularly for. For people who grow up in homes where there isn't a lot of intimacy, I think what they crave is that, you know, you crave what you see on the. In the Notebook or whatever. And we didn't have that then, but you. The Titanic, you know, I'm not a romantic movie or romantic comedy person at all.

[Penn Badgley]

Feels like you are.

[Guest]

But. But see, but the Titanic or no, it's a Titanic, isn't it? It's not the Titanic.

[Penn Badgley]

Titanic.

[Guest]

So Titanic. Like, I loved and I didn't see it, a bunch of everybody did, but I just thought, like, I wanted that, you know, that you want, you. Love comes in so many forms. So many forms. And it's actually tragic for us all that we have conflated it so completely with just sex. But, you know, I mean, from a very young age, that's what I wanted.

[Penn Badgley]

I think that also makes sense because. Because you didn't have anything like that at home then I think once you taste it and you, like, feel it. Okay. Where these analogies are.

[Guest]

The juices.

[Penn Badgley]

The juices.

[Guest]

Let me just go ahead and reach over here for my tea and bring it on the long trip around.

[Penn Badgley]

Bring the fuck. But I think then once you probably felt that you're like gonna crave it because it's like, I can't get any of that at home. Whereas maybe someone like, okay, I've seen it. I know it's out there again. Where once you. This is.

[Guest]

I'm gonna go right there. I want that thing.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes.

[Guest]

You know?

[Penn Badgley]

Yes.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Now, being a father, I'm curious if there were any, like, behaviors that you witnessed as a kid in your house that you are never want your kids to experience.

[Guest]

Yeah, well, it would be just the. It would be the. The vibe, the the, there's the saying, calling it coldness, I feels a bit unforgiving to my parents. It's, it's not because it, that sounds like there's intent behind it, you know, and awareness, but it just, just there wasn't a lot of life at home. There wasn't a lot of life.

[Penn Badgley]

But I get what you're saying. I also think it's like as you get older, I'm sure you've realized, like it's weird when you have resentment of your childhood and then as you become a parent, so I've heard, it's like, oh, wow, they were all.

[Guest]

It is.

[Penn Badgley]

They were really doing the best that they could. And it doesn't mean that you didn't experience what you experienced, but it also puts more in perspective, like it wasn't so personal sometimes. I can't speak for everyone's experience.

[Guest]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's of course plenty of nuance in there, but the basic principle you're pointing to is what I was saying, like that's all it is, is like you're constantly, as a parent, you're constantly being brought in touch with. Oh, that, Yeah, I, I didn't have that. I mean, you know, I've said this elsewhere a few times, but the first time that I needed that, I felt that I needed to say I'm sorry to my now four and a half year old. I think he was three, maybe freshly three. It was a minor moment. He would not get in the car seat, as any parent knows. And anybody who hasn't has kids is like, oh, shut up about the fucking car seats. Yeah. Is it really? Yeah, it's like, yeah, it can be hard.

[Penn Badgley]

It's about all it's really.

[Guest]

And by the way, it's reasonable for them to not want to get in a car seat. They're strapped in, they can't. And if they think it's going to be two hours, like, to them that's a lifetime. That is a lifetime. You see how many phases a kid, a three year old goes through in two hours. You want them to sit strapped in the entire time. I mean, so I'm with 3 year olds on this, but I had to get him in and I, and I started to get impatient, you know, go figure. And. But the key thing to remember, or for me, like fatherhood, parenthood, until about two and a half, it was like in terms of losing my patience, like it didn't happen. It didn't happen. I'll lose patience with my wife. Hi, baby. Sorry, but love you so much. But with the kid, with a child that small, I mean, they're just like, what are you gonna do? So I noticed that I was losing my patience in a way that was like. I was speaking to him in a way that I'd never spoken to before, which is kind of short, you know, like a little dickish. You know, he. Let's not talk about his behavior. Dick of the century. Okay. He was being crazy, but he's allowed to be. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You gotta keep it together. You're the adult.

[Guest]

Yeah. So. So I was starting to, like. I was starting to take it like, as though he's not three. And that's what we all do as parents. Eventually you lose perspective and you're like treating them like somebody who's much older. And that's not fair. That's not fair to them at all. So I was being really impatient with him, getting him into the car seat. I don't, at this point, I don't remember what. I think I definitely wasn't being like, you know, I wasn't doing that. That's a bit rough. But I was speaking in a way.

[Penn Badgley]

That was just, you know, not as loving. Dad.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

As you usually are.

[Guest]

And then I. And then I think I realized it as I was doing it, because it was a new thing. And. And I just said, I'm sorry, I'm being really impatient with you, aren't I? And then he just went, yeah. And it immediately broke. And I. And I said, you're right. I don't like the way I was speaking to you.

[Penn Badgley]

You still have to go in the car seat.

[Guest]

Yeah. And I was like, but you still gotta get in the car seat. No, no, no.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my God.

[Guest]

It was really. It was like he relaxed.

[Penn Badgley]

So real, though. Buckled him in and you guys went on your journey. Yeah, See?

[Guest]

But when this happened, I realized like, oh, you know, in terms of my mom, like, she probably. I don't. I don't know, I'm not sure. But certainly in terms of my father, I think I just, just their generation, the way they parented all of us, I was just like, oh, that was new. You know, me apologizing to a three year old as his father, like, I was like, that's new, right?

[Penn Badgley]

You're like, I taught myself that well. My dad never taught me that.

[Guest]

Right. And that was a beautiful moment. That was like, you know, that is.

[Penn Badgley]

Beautiful because it means you're like changing generate generationally what you're gonna now instill in your kid. And then if he ever has kids, he hopefully will do that.

[Guest]

Yeah. Foreign.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Penn Badgley]

I have been so into taking little.

[Alex Cooper]

Weekend trips this year and when I start to get stressed at work and know I need a vacay, I open up Airbnb. Okay. Matt and I are about to go away for the weekend and I found the cutest, coziest home on Airbnb for us. I need to make sure I can travel with my dogs. Henry and Bruce are not getting left behind. Okay. And Airbnb makes it so easy to find pet friendly properties on a romantic getaway. Having our own home ensures that Matt and I will have the privacy that.

[Penn Badgley]

We truly need to unwind.

[Alex Cooper]

I feel like I'm nonstop talking all day, so when I do get a break, I don't want to see or speak to anyone but my husband.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

I also love that Airbnb shows guest reviews. I am someone who is on the.

[Penn Badgley]

Page scrolling through every single review a.

[Alex Cooper]

Place has and seeing that so many people have stayed at a home and.

[Penn Badgley]

Loved the experience makes me feel secur.

[Alex Cooper]

When I'm booking a place. No matter where I want to drive off to on a random weekend, I'm always able to find an incredible place to stay. And if you just want to go somewhere but you don't really know where to go yet, let Airbnb make the decision for you. They have a guest favorites tab that might inspire you and perhaps even create a new tradition as you book your 2025 travel. My number one tip is to check out Airbnb to find the perfect place to stay, because your accommodation can really make or break the TR.

[Penn Badgley]

You though talking about going at 12 years old to Los Angeles with your mom. I feel like whenever people think about actors, you sharing, you know, you're like, I was chubby. I was going through it, my voice. Like, I was insecure. Then people would be like, so what the are you talking about? Then you become an actor. Like, people associated, like, actors who, like, love the way that they look and like, to look at themselves. It's like, a lot of vanity.

[Guest]

Sure. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

But then I feel like, in a beautiful way. What are you talking about, Pen? No, but you know what I'm saying, Like, and then I think the beauty of having podcasts like this is, like, you learn things about. Most people get into the arts because it's a way to, like, find themselves.

[Guest]

Totally. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

A lot of times people pour themselves into it because they're running from something else.

[Guest]

Absolutely.

[Penn Badgley]

So when you go to la, were you still quite insecure?

[Guest]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the insecurity hadn't even really found its full expression until I moved here because I was 12 and, you know, I hadn't yet started making money in a. In a. In a. In a livelihood, a practice, a craft that would come to depend more and more on the way that I looked.

[Penn Badgley]

How did you even get into acting?

[Guest]

So when we moved to that mountain outside of Issaquah, having lost my cat, wasn't enrolled in school because it was the end of the school year. And so the sum. The long summer was ahead of us. Again, parents, like, not the tightest. My mom clearly saw, like, ooh, this is. We need something. You know, we need, like, neighbors. Our closest neighbor was a mile away. Like, our driveway was, like, two dirt tracks up there. It was like a real mountain. That's why the cat died. There's cougars and bears and all kinds of.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, I mean, you're an only child. You're sitting in a house. Your parents are basically mid divorce. You got no cats.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You're not feeling too good about yourself.

[Guest]

Yes. Thank you. So just.

[Penn Badgley]

Just to remind you.

[Guest]

Thank you.

[Penn Badgley]

No, it's awful. And then we need to find Pen something to do for the summer.

[Guest]

So auditioned. I don't know what the competition was like. No memory of that. I got the role. Winthrop, a music man. It's a significant role. He's a boy with a lisp who's very quiet and shy. I was very quiet and shy. But he comes out of his shell when he learns to. I play something in a band, so I loved just the camaraderie of. And mixed stages too. You know, it's like kids and adults and everybody in between. And it was. It was just like. It's not like going to school at all. It was. It was really, really exciting. It was. And on opening night, just getting that feedback, you know, the excitement of being on stage, you know, it creates stakes and structure which everybody, I think, needs a bit of to thrive. Like, I loved it. I loved it. I actually said that night, like, I want to do this for the. For the rest of my life. You know, that little boy was not aware of all the implications or what it would take or that it was even. That it was ever feasible. That it was actually delusional and, like, basically not feasible. But. Yeah, so. And. And people very quickly and why they do this, I don't know. But if you're in any town, it's close to, like, a major city, like a satellite for la. Like, there's Seattle, there's. There's Florida, like Tampa. A lot of kids come from Florida. There's other places, maybe Chicago. But if you're in a certain town, people will say, you should try going to la. I mean, it's not good advice. It's just not good.

[Penn Badgley]

Why?

[Guest]

Are you gonna make it?

[Penn Badgley]

You did.

[Guest]

Are you gonna. Yeah. I mean, it's. I'm not.

[Penn Badgley]

You're like, I'm the 1%, Alex.

[Guest]

It's a. But this is the thing, though. It is, to a degree, a fluke. It just is.

[Penn Badgley]

You think?

[Guest]

I'm not saying there's no talent involved. I'm just saying those of us who make it are something of the exception that proves the rule. Cause the rate of failure in this town is high. It's high. It's high. It's a bit tragically high for people who wanna make art. I want to do things. I want to perform. And it's like, you know, it's. To me, it's not just. It's not a meritocracy. You know what I mean? I don't know what industry would be.

[Penn Badgley]

But when do you think you started making money off of it?

[Guest]

I know when I did, I was 12. Oh, I started working that summer.

[Penn Badgley]

Off of acting.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Was there a point in your life where you turned into the breadwinner for your family?

[Guest]

Yeah, very early.

[Penn Badgley]

How early?

[Guest]

15.

[Penn Badgley]

How did that shift?

[Guest]

I mean, so not the whole family. And I wasn't. I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but she needed to be present. So it was like this dynamic. I mean, I was financially independent by 15. I wasn't always the breadwinner. And. But. But. But then, you know, by the time. But, like, I've always. I've always needed to and wanted to provide support for my parents since then.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. That's really nice. I feel like you then kind of, from what I've researched, like, you went on to really do a lot of, like, the awkward, nice guy roles. Like, pretty consistent.

[Guest]

Has that stopped?

[Penn Badgley]

I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer.

[Guest]

But he's an awkward, nice guy.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. That's actually fair. There's kind of a through line. Even though he's a psychopath, but that through line is, like, pretty consistent. Right. That's fair to say. Were you looking for those roles or did they naturally just come to you? Because it's a little bit of who.

[Guest]

You are, wants to be? No. Well, so. So here's the thing. That's true. Starting at 20 years old. So I had eight years of near financial independence, professional work. I was working. I was tired of television. By the time Gossip Girl came around. I famously said. Or I don't know famously, but I've said many times, you know, I initially turned the roll down, and I didn't. And I didn't just, like, kind of turn it down. I mean, I. I said. I said, so grateful you thought of me. Wish you well, but no, thanks. And they went on to try and cast the whole thing and cast Dan and. And they. And they. And they evidently could cast everybody, but. But Dan. But. So, you know, by the time. The point is not about Gossip Girl. The point is that by the time I was 20, I was like, I was feeling real disillusioned and dried up and tired of being in Hollywood, of acting. I've been doing it my entire. Since I was 12. When you're 20 years old and you've been doing something professionally since you were 12, that's your life. That's like your whole life. And I was. I. I was. Yeah, I. I was.

[Penn Badgley]

You were done. Because you didn't like it anymore.

[Guest]

That also. I just was not. You know, I came real close, really close to, like, a number of Great roles in these great independent films, and I wouldn't get them. And I was like, okay, great. But you know what this is. I really wanted to try my hand at music. That had been my passion since, you know. But the point is, I was real. I had a tiredness about me at 20 that I think is not typical for a 20 year old. Because I've been working for so long.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, I feel like every time I've talked to, like, child actors, that's something that is lost, I think, in, in the way that we look at these young kids. Like, I always look at, like, Lindsay Lohan. I'm like, it's incredible how long she worked while all of us were, like, picking our noses and, like, being in school and, like, doing nothing, essentially, but, like, just being a child. And so to have worked your whole youth and then into adolescence and then all of it, like, I'm sure you're like, I never want to work another day in my life. I'm so exhausted. When you were supposed to be having fun, you were working. But then to turn down Gossip Girl is like, what? Now we know what a success it was. But at the time, like, were you also uninterested in the role that you were gonna play, or was it just because you were like, I'm so tired. I don't want to do this anymore.

[Guest]

With all due respect. And I mean, I told the creators this at the outset, so it's not. And it's not, no shocker. Like, I was not interested. And, and that's, you know, that's just, I think that's fair to say. That's, that's fair to say. That's what I have to say about that.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Guest]

So you can ask me more.

[Penn Badgley]

But no, no, no. You obviously ended up changing your mind. So, like, what changed?

[Guest]

Well, I was close to broke, although that was not. I was looking forward to, like, figuring that out. I'd had a pretty spartan year behind me. You know, I was like, I, I, I was enjoying my way of life, but the future was real unknown. And I think, you know, it's not like I could go live with my parents for there's mistakes. The stakes is high, right? So. And you know, a few people, I mean, my manager certainly spoke about it in a way that he thought it was a good idea. Few key people close to me. And then it was, it was New York City getting to live in New York City, where I've now lived since and which is my home. And I'd always wanted to live there. You know, you also think about a show like that, it's hard to grow beyond it. I'm gonna be 40 next year. Wait, I'm 30. You lose track at some point. 38. Am I 38? I'm thinking I'm 38. So I'm gonna be 39 this year. Next year I will be 40. I will still be answering questions about this show I decided to do when I was 20. You know what I mean? And whatever that is, what it is, like, certainly that's fine. But it's. It sets you on a certain track that you have to, in a sense, resist. You have to learn how to work with it, interface with it. Otherwise it just sort of takes you on its ride. So, you know, you're kind of playing. You're taking a huge risk, I think, in a way, actually, you know, if. If it's going to set you up to do only some things and you're gonna have to fight to try and do other things.

[Penn Badgley]

You know, I think that's so understandable for people. Like, I get. I think people in this industry really get that. And I think people that are consumers don't see that whatsoever. They're like, there are going to be people that watch this and then are like, pen, what the are you talking about? You run the biggest show in the world. Like, I will forever love you. Like, oh, my gosh, that show I rewatch every year. But to you, I think a lot of actors understandably have that where, like, you don't want to be typecast into this. Like, one thing that people think of you as.

[Guest]

Right.

[Penn Badgley]

Because then you want to, you want to keep growing.

[Guest]

Yeah. You. Yeah, you want to have some autonomy and you sign. So also signing onto a television show, what you do is you have to sign a six year contract. There's no, no other way to do it. You don't, you know, you haven't seen any of those scripts. You're just like, all right, so, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, I mean, I chose to do it because it felt like it could be an exciting new experience. And. And I'm. Yeah, no, I mean, look, I'm grateful for it now. It took, but it took some time because I. Because keep in mind, I started in a place where I was like, tired, disillusioned. I was literally compared to the others. Like, oddly, I was like a veteran, you know, and I was just kind of like, here we go. I mean, I'd done like four series before that, you know.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Something that I love, though. Is. I think what we. And this is. Goes past acting is like, there are stages in your life where you have to have time to step away from it, to have any bit of love and respect for what you did at that time. There are people that look back at what they did in high school and they're like, actually fucking stab me and kill me before you even bring that up. Please look away. But then all of a sudden, you look back and you're like, oh, wow.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

With now more perspective and time, I, like, look back and I can see positives from that. So let's pay a little bit of, you know, respect to Dan. Yeah, yeah, we'll go back to the child.

[Guest]

I mean, how long we got.

[Penn Badgley]

Childhood. No, no, no. We're gonna go back to. We're gonna get into trauma. We're gonna get into all of it. Dan's gonna be a breeze. Dan is literally a breeze. You're gonna be like, let's talk more about Dan Humphrey. Rufus. Okay, in what ways did you relate at all to Dan Humphrey?

[Guest]

I mean, it's not that hard. He's like, he's. Isn't he kind of. He's not quiet, is he?

[Penn Badgley]

He kind of was, but he's TV.

[Guest]

Quiet the same way he's tv. Like ugly and poor. He's the quiet, ugly, poor kid. Like, okay, guys, sure, sure, sure.

[Penn Badgley]

Talk to me about the sideburns at the time.

[Guest]

Oh, my goodness. If I could have seen in real life the side of my head, I guarantee you I would have never. Nevers. Let's give young Pen a little bit of something here too, you know? You know, in the early 2000s, it was like. It was like boot cut jeans with the low rise waist. There's a. There's a look to a sideburn that I always wanted like the second I could grow facial hair, which happened to be early, you know, it was like I wanted them and it was just an aesthetic thing that's like you. I only see my face from here, you know, I only see just this little bit of, you know, this little bit of. A little bit of contouring. It's like gives me some age, right? Have a baby face. Always wanted to look older. Now those sideburns did. Why didn't anybody say they were so.

[Penn Badgley]

Large and thick and the width.

[Guest]

Well, and by the way, I didn't like. I didn't. I didn't, like, do that. That's the way they are.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah. But they were kind of like pronounced because you didn't have a beard.

[Guest]

Well, Right. But because I had to shave every day on that show, you know, it's like, I was never allowed for gradation or a little bit growth. So it's like, look, this is me starting to shave here.

[Penn Badgley]

To the point, though, that someone could assume that they were a prop. Like, you stuck those bad boys on every day. No, they were so pronounced.

[Guest]

I mean, who allowed that? So many people allowed that.

[Penn Badgley]

It looked amazing. I definitely focused on it quite often in, like, the first season. That shit was popping. Oh, my God. Okay, so we relate a little bit to him. How are you different than Dan?

[Guest]

I mean, in every way.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, fuck him. And we love Dan.

[Guest]

Do you.

[Penn Badgley]

He went through his phases where I would be like, lonely boy. Like, I do love you now. And then I'd be like, dan, shut the up. Like, yo, when he dated Georgina, I was like, you're so done in my eyes. I hate you.

[Guest]

Can I ask why?

[Penn Badgley]

I'm like, it's Georgina. And meanwhile, you're like, serena. Like, I love her. She's gray. And I wanted to just. Yeah, but then you came back around.

[Guest]

To be honest, I can barely remember those storylines. Like, there's a lot of them.

[Penn Badgley]

I'll walk you through them. Don't worry.

[Guest]

There's a lot of them.

[Penn Badgley]

Who's worse, Dan or Joe?

[Guest]

Well, that's not. I mean, it's Joe. I'm sorry, Was. Was. Was Dan masturbating in the street and strangling women? I'm sorry to say it so, like, pronounced, but, I mean, why do. Why am I. Everybody was like, he needs to chill. I'm like, no, bro, you watched it.

[Penn Badgley]

It.

[Guest]

It's what he does. Why? Why? When I say it, is it worse than watching it happen? The worst Joe did or what's his face? Dan. The worst Dan did was.

[Penn Badgley]

What's his name? Shut the up.

[Guest]

The worst Dan did was. I mean, he did.

[Penn Badgley]

Like, we know what he did.

[Guest]

What he did was sociopathic just in terms of being Gossip Girl. Sorry.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah. No, actually, sociopathic. Can we talk about that?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Where were you? What were you wearing? Where were you sitting or were you standing? What? Energy in the room when you found out you were Gossip Girl?

[Guest]

I was in the hair and makeup trailer room. Don't remember what I was wearing. JFK was not assassinated on that day. It was just me being Gossip Girl. But I remember just being like, huh.

[Penn Badgley]

Huh.

[Guest]

Okay. Like, if I'm trying to. I'm trying to math it. It's tough. All right? And we've got a shoot tomorrow. Cool. Okay. You know, I mean, I found out real late. Real late.

[Penn Badgley]

You have to tell me who you think should have been Gossip Girl.

[Alex Cooper]

Call her. Daddy is brought to you by White Claw. I don't know who needs to hear this, but you are way too hot to be spending the summer sitting inside scrolling on your phone. Okay, Take it in, Daddy gang. We are getting the string bikinis out of storage and plans out of the group chat. And you know what goes perfectly with the 7UV index and yapping with your girls? A can of cold White Claw. When I think about White Claw, I think about the best times of my life. Okay? I think about summer. I think about a little cooler. I think about Matt popping open a can shirtless by the pool. Okay? I think about a mango White Claw. Okay. That is right, Daddy gang. It is a White Claw Summer. 100 calories in 12 glorious ounces. Gluten free. And the taste you know and love. We're keeping it light this summer. We're splitting a variety pack because there's an iced Cold claw for everyone in a friend group. Like peach, black cherry, mango. Boom. You guys, you know I am an OG Black Cherry girl. If you saw me on, you saw me holding a black cherry. Every turn, every corner in every city. It is time to come out of hibernation and stop leaving everyone on red. Get out there. Daddy gang. Enjoy your summer. We're finding a guy with a boat and we're having a damn drink. Okay, Pick up a pack from your favorite local spot and grab life by the claw with your favorite flavor this summer. Tell them your founding father sent you. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors. White Claw Seltzer Works Chicago, Illinois Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Lieb by Yves St. Laurent. Mother's Day is approaching, so let's talk about our fearless, bold moms, shall we? They deserve a fragrance they can wear every day that embodies their confidence and the freedom to be unapologetically themselves. When I think about my mom, I know she's never buying anything for herself. And I know she's never going to be like, oh, I need a new something of this.

[Penn Badgley]

No.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Penn Badgley]

You have to tell me who you think should have been Gossip Girl.

[Guest]

It wouldn't have made sense for anybody. We all wanted it to be Dorota, without a doubt. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Dorota would have slapped.

[Guest]

They needed it to be a series regular. Sorry.

[Penn Badgley]

What about Rufus regular that little needed.

[Guest]

They needed to be one of the core six. Otherwise, nobody cares.

[Penn Badgley]

Oh, my God. You get to call yourself one of the core six.

[Guest]

I am. I'm sorry.

[Penn Badgley]

That's like a badge of honor.

[Guest]

I'm not just the core six. I'm Gossip Girl, baby. I mean, I didn't write it. It's on the wall like that. You are dabby. I am Gossip Girl. These are facts, okay? Facts.

[Penn Badgley]

That's just like, the promo, right?

[Guest]

Sound bite.

[Alex Cooper]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I just gave you.

[Guest]

I just gave you everything you wanted. You're welcome.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, wait. When I interviewed Nate Archibald, AKA Chase Crawford, he told me that he and Ed Westwick would, like, throw these rooftop parties at their apartment. Did you ever get invited? And did you ever go?

[Guest]

Did I get invited? Of course. It wasn't like they were sending out invites. Yeah. I mean, but I didn't go much. I was not a partier.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. What were you doing during your, like, rise to fame in New York City?

[Guest]

Sitting at home, just. Yeah, good question. I just had a different friend circle.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Guest]

I did.

[Penn Badgley]

What were you doing? Like, would you go out?

[Guest]

Good question. I mean, it didn't go out as much.

[Penn Badgley]

Where did you live?

[Guest]

Gramercy.

[Penn Badgley]

You weren't going to 1Oak?

[Guest]

I did go to Oneok Way after everybody. I'd heard about One Oak a lot. I remember the first time. Okay. I remember the first time that I had to pay for a bottle. And this was years later. Years, years, years later, I took somebody out. They really wanted to go out. They're from Thailand, right? They, like. They wanted to Party, like, they saw. And I was like, okay, we'll go. I go to some place I don't even remember the name of that I've been to many times. I bought a bottle, and I was like, I'm sorry. Come again. What? Wait. Whoa. You know that meme of the guy being, like, in the math. I was just like, so not only have I been getting free bottles, my whole twenties, completely unaware again, we're talking about upholding the artifice. This is. This is. I was just like, people pay for this this much, and you could go.

[Penn Badgley]

To the grocery store and get a bottle of Grey Goose for, like, it's criminal.

[Guest]

I was like, yeah, I feel good about not having done this a bunch. I mean, stunned me. It stunned me. I was like, people have to save up to waste it this quickly. I mean, good lord.

[Penn Badgley]

Wait, but did you have people, like, as you had from Thailand, did you have people thinking because of your life in New York City, being this IT guy, you had this access and this lifestyle that you, like, weren't living in Gramercy?

[Guest]

Yeah, certainly for Gossip Girls. Certainly. Certainly because of, you know, the early 2000s celebrity city thing. Yeah. I mean, I think. I think. Well, look, you know, and cry me river. It's not a big deal. I'm. What I say is as a witness to it, not as a complaint, but I think one of the aspects of celebrity that you deal with constantly is just like, everybody just thinks you're somebody you're not. And, you know, again, so that's. So. I think that's just always so.

[Penn Badgley]

How long did you do Gossip Girl?

[Guest]

Six years.

[Penn Badgley]

For six years, you're living in New York City. You're in your early 20s. And I feel like, like, a lot of the character that you were being, you were kind of had parallels, Right. You were, like, living in New York City.

[Guest]

Sure.

[Penn Badgley]

You were also living in New York City at the time for the show. You were dating Blake Lively. You were dating Serena on the show. Did you feel like you were able to, like, separate your actual job from your reality and actually able to, like, grow in your 20s, or did it all feel like it was kind of merged?

[Guest]

I mean, that's a great question, because it was the struggle, you know, the difference between. There are many differences between film and television. One of them is that when you do a film, you do it once, you know, and you kind of give it your all, and then you move on, whether you want to or not. You know, you do. When you do a television show, you are. You're Doing it constantly because of the nature of that show and because of celebrity culture at that time especially, it was like, you know, I remember, like, you know, suddenly the influx of interviews, being asked about, like, I remember doing something for, you know, Cosmo Girl or something. That's a thing, right? Is it?

[Penn Badgley]

Is it oh Girl. Like, it's like the younger version.

[Guest]

Yeah, wasn't it?

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Guest]

Like Teen Vogue was just come out. You know what I mean? Like, I remember doing interviews for those kinds of publications and being asked about, like, you know, dating advice or like, by the way, like, think I've been on one date in my life, like, spent most of my time just sort of either in a relationship or not. And I remember just the feeling of not knowing. But it is this. It's this thing. You feel like you're constantly. Even though no one may be actually asking you to do this, you feel like you're constantly needing to prove yourself in some manner otherwise, what are you doing? I mean, you, you, you know, what is. What is the space? This, you know, this kind of thing has evolved over the course of however long, you know, but we didn't have podcasts like this back then where you could explore things at length and depth. You know, they were looking for a quick sound bite, and it was just like, it was just like, huh, okay. Yeah, all right. Okay, all right. Huh. It's like, you know, you don't. Interfacing in that space can actually feel really crazy. And you, you, you. You suddenly feel the need to perform and you're just like, why can't I just say something fucking normal? You know, like, why can't? And so what starts to happen when you're in this one role for a long time, the, the, you know, the aspect of celebrity being a part of it, a huge part of it, there. There is not enough separation, I think, for anybody. You're seen as this person. You're called their name out on the street. You also constantly have to be that person at work. And I was 20. I was 21, 22. So, like, I didn't have the emotional maturity to understand to how to differentiate myself just in terms of self worth. Like, what people seem to think of Dan seemed to be what people thought of me. And now I had enough sense, enough intelligence, enough self worth, enough just, you know, like, I wasn't like losing myself, but it bothered me.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, and I feel like that makes a lot of sense too, because even as you're saying that, I'm thinking about, like, very specific people could look Back at their time in, like, Hannah Montana, for example. That is the biggest mind for Miley, where it's like you're playing yourself, but you're secretly a pop star. And then you actually become a pop star. Like, you guys were playing these characters that were actually physically living in New York City. And it wasn't like you guys were like heroes. It was, it was like an actual thing that people could believe. You're like, excuse me, Dan again, Gossip Girl. But, like, you know what I'm saying? It's like people, it's easier to believe the Friday Night Lights characters and the One Tree Hill characters, like, those were just normal characters that people could believe you are as opposed to this. Like, you're playing a doctor. I guess even still, Alan Pompeo was like, people went into surgery because of me. But, like, people merge it too much. And so when you're walking and you're like, am I more like this or am I. This character can get confusing.

[Guest]

Definitely.

[Penn Badgley]

How did you approach your dating life in your 20s?

[Guest]

Okay, so going back to what we said earlier about that need for intimacy and really wanting a love that transcends the body, truly, I mean, that's what we all want, but never had an approach. I, I, I, I've had a handful of long relationships, and that's, that's about the extent of it, you know, I really did not date, tried, found it. Not. What's the word? I don't even know. I mean, fulfilling, satisfying. I don't know. It's just I was not good at what felt like dating is. Dating is a bit of a performance, I think. Right? Isn't it? Like, I mean, it's initially like, that's, and I think that's just like, really stressed me out. I never had an approach, so trying to, like, I, I really longed for that kind of connection, that kind of intimacy. I think just as anybody else, you know, kind of something that my show you has been about, which is like the, the, the really toxic misconceptions we have, like, modern love mythology. The way that a relationship should be, the way that you should feel like it does to watch Titanic. You know what I mean? Like that, like, so I, so I wanted that. And so it's so I also had a very long and difficult relationship in my teen years that marked me. And I actually remember thinking, when I got out of it at 19, I was just like, like, that was a way to start it all. I wonder what effects it's going to have on me. You know, I wonder. So I But then I found myself in my twenties, three different long term relationships. The third one was with my wife and it's, you know, can we talk.

[Penn Badgley]

A little bit about modern dating culture? Because I know like you're kind of saying, you have obviously very strong opinions.

[Guest]

I. I don't know any. The truth is I don't know anything about what it's like actually. But I can only speak as a person who, who hears about it.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. Casual dating.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

What do you feel about that?

[Guest]

For people, here's a platform upon which to skewer yourself.

[Penn Badgley]

Just go.

[Guest]

Sure.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Penn Badgley]

Boom.

[Alex Cooper]

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[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Alex Cooper]

Sorry, who is this? Literally block their number and then hit up T Mobile. The one you actually want to go out with. I love T Mobile and here's the thing. I have a good self esteem. But I'm not going to lie. I love T Mobile Tuesdays where T Mobile thanks customers every Tuesday with perks and discounts. Okay? I like being taken care of. So thank you T Mobile. Check out the VIP treatment@t mobile.com benefits.

[Penn Badgley]

Casual dating. What do you feel about that for people?

[Guest]

Is it ever casual? Show me somebody who really, really truly it's casual about it. I'll wait. I'll wait. Not that they act casual about it, that they feel casual about it. I'll wait. Please. I would like to see it in the comments.

[Penn Badgley]

I think that some women would ask. Back to you, Pen. I wish he didn't feel like it was casual.

[Guest]

I'm telling you that he doesn't understand the ways in which. Which it is not casual for him either.

[Penn Badgley]

Cuz he may just actually be like oh, I don't like you.

[Guest]

What about that, that whole thing? Yeah, that's. Sorry. So I, you know, I am sorry to women on that one. I. I can't apologize for men but I'm just saying like that is. That is the whole like what is that too like he's just not that into you. That whole thing that like what that. Okay, so if I. If I venture something here. One of the reasons I didn't like dating was because of what it seemed like, you know, young men, boys, men need to sort of how they need to behave and act which always felt real corrosive and toxic and coarse and just calloused at a very young age. If I'm representative of anything that can be generalized. It seemed that it was important and necessary for me as a man to like, you know, it's a such a dumb old term that so many young people will be like what did you just say? But like so your wild oats, you know that kind of thing. I don't know. What, what would, what, what would you say now? What would you. I sound like an 80 year old. What, what would you say?

[Penn Badgley]

Say that again.

[Guest]

So I'm not gonna say it again. You're like. Okay, say it one more time for me, please.

[Penn Badgley]

And make eye contact with the camera. Wait, I actually don't know if you said so your.

[Guest]

Or one's so your oats, your wild. It sounds so dumb.

[Penn Badgley]

So your wild oats.

[Guest]

When I have to say it's no.

[Penn Badgley]

No, break it down.

[Guest]

Sow your wild oats. Like to have sex with a lot of women. Women.

[Penn Badgley]

That's probably how they would say it.

[Guest]

Sure, sure.

[Penn Badgley]

To have sex with a lot.

[Guest]

A lot of women. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Like they're around.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Penn Badgley]

Not the oats, it's more just they around.

[Guest]

Well, you think of it like this. You're a, you're, you're, you're a gardener and you've got a, you've got a handful of seed and you're just casting it out into the wilderness.

[Penn Badgley]

Yes. Okay, now see, this makes more sense. Maybe someone will start saying that in Gen Z and you're gonna trend it back upwards.

[Guest]

Okay, I might have that power.

[Penn Badgley]

Maybe, Maybe. Okay, so how do you feel about casual sex? Not now, obviously. I know.

[Guest]

Again. Again. Show me anyone who's able to have it. Truly. And I'm saying, I'm not just saying who does it. Yeah, plenty of people do it. Show me someone who's actually. What about it is casual? What about it is casual? Again, I'll wait.

[Penn Badgley]

I think it's a great question to pose to the girls listening.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

People obviously like always say relationships are hard. They're hard work, they're a lot of work. But what does that tangibly look like to you to work on a relationship?

[Guest]

I feel like you have to always be learning new levels of listening because when you get past the, you know, it's anywhere from the six months to two year mark when the juices, so to speak, the chemicals have like sort of run their course. You may have had something that could be like wildly intoxicating. In some cases that's true. In some cases it may be less or somewhere in between. But you know, studies show about six to 24 months that runs its course. Then you have to enter into a different kind of relationship. One that we don't see a lot. You know, we don't see it modeled a lot. Hardly ever, you know, for reasons that have to do more with like what it takes to tell a good story than, than reality, you know. In movies and TV and books and stuff. So then you have to think to yourself, like, well, what. What is a relationship for? Not just like, what am I in this for? What is a relationship for? That's also a question I pose. What is a relationship for? Not just what is it doing for you, what is it? What is. What are relationships for? You know, and at some point, I think you just have to realize that, like, you, you're developing your own narratives and biases that have to be kind of constantly re. Shaped reach, you know, you have to check in with them. And so it just means it's just another level of listening. You, you know, you, you. And then once you get into parenting, it's, it's. It just adds like a level of complexity that's, that's really beautiful and rewarding. So, you know, when you're, when you're parenting, actually, sometimes it can be really practical stuff. Like we have to schedule time for any kind of intimacy we want to have. Like, if we want to go out, that needs to be in that calendar. And you have to find child care. You have to. It's all this stuff. It's like, it's, it's very real. And that can actually be a surprising.

[Penn Badgley]

Amount of work, because I was gonna ask. I know obviously your wife has a child from a previous relationship, and when you were starting to date, that takes another level of commitment and stability. And like, how did you know that was something you were ready for?

[Guest]

Well, I didn't. And I mean, I think so, like, the, when we first met, it was kind of. It was immediate and because before we had time to think, I think we just, we wanted to be together in, in the deepest way. And I wanted to be there for her son in whatever way was best. His father's always been in his. But then the cultural dating laws, which I never abided by, I never understood, but you were pressuring me. I was like, I need to sell my wild oats. What am I doing with this woman with a child? But, you know, I was 28, I think maybe 27. And I really did think, is it right for me, you know, to be, to be getting into a relationship with a woman who has a child? Like that, it. So the stakes were always significant there. We both felt that. And so we both actually, after an immediate intense connection and like, not thinking about it, we then sort of like, you know, we need to think about this more. And what. I only felt that I was ready, once I felt confident, to like, leave all that, all these notions about what it is to be a man, what it is to date, what I needed to do, who I needed to be sexually. Once I was able to start really leaving that behind. Behind.

[Penn Badgley]

That's beautiful. I also love, like, just, like, hearing the way that you talk about your relationship. It's so nice to hear again, almost back to the way that you're parenting about, like, listening and apologizing and doing things that are, like, not typically what you would think, like, a man is leading with. I think it's really refreshing to hear because I know even you've talked about with your wife that you guys, like, early on in your relationship took breaks. And I think, like, so much of what you've shared is quite helpful to people because I know there's people listening who are trying to figure it out. And I think people obviously look up to you. So when you're more open, obviously, with what you're comfortable, I think it's nice to hear when you are, like, willing to share that kind of detail about your relationship, because I know that there's people like, holy, can I be a good mother, father to another child? You know what I mean?

[Guest]

Yeah, it's. It's. There's a spiritual component to this, which is really the thing that is. That allowed it to happen. So she and I, you know, we happen to sort of become sober around the same time. We were picking up meditation and. And prayer and really trying to live with a different sort of framework, you know, independent of one another. But this was happening kind of at the same time. And I think that was what even created like. Like the opportunity or the conditions for us to be. Like, we're dealing with a lot of ways of thinking that are not our own. Some of those ways of thinking are putting a lot of pressure on us to conform in a way that we've seen before, to either be together in a way that we've seen or to not be together in a way that we've seen. And so. And I think, like, maybe the world is ready for a lot of new relationships, like, where people are discovering something. And I think in some way, like we did, we discovered something. Like, if I. If I had advice for young people, and it risks being simplistic, you could take it a lot of ways, and I guess it could be misused. But, like, I think young people now, we waste a lot of time worrying about relationships rather than, like. Like being in them and trying. We. We waste a lot of time in fear and hesitation and trying to imagine what the other person's thinking. Like, when is that ever going to happen? You don't know. You've never known. Stop trying to act like you've ever known. Never once have you read that person's mind. It's not going to start now. You know? I mean, like, I don't know, just. Just the way that relationships function, at least from a pop culture perspective, I think is, like, so crazy dysfunctional, you know? And, like, so.

[Penn Badgley]

That's a good point. It's, like, definitely. It's definitely become something that I think people almost, like, aren't even noticing. And it's like these games, and it's like, we. We don't have to do any of that. And I definitely felt like I did it. I was a part of the cycle. I was, like, in it heavy. That's how I literally started this show. It's just like. You don't say, yeah, well, the name.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

I was like, oh, we're gonna flip it on its head and we're gonna do what men do to us. And then eventually, when I met.

[Guest]

It doesn't make them happy either.

[Penn Badgley]

Exactly. And then I literally met my husband, and I was like, oh, my God, I'm gonna call him Daddy. Yeah.

[Guest]

No, but not. Sorry. Not enough.

[Penn Badgley]

Never.

[Guest]

I will always scratch that from the record. Strike it. Strike it.

[Penn Badgley]

Take it out. I want to talk to you about you, though, because I do think there's a lot of themes in it that are. It's all this kind of.

[Guest]

Joe is the embodiment of not realizing.

[Penn Badgley]

Any of this before we get to that. Is it true you also almost turned this role down?

[Guest]

Yeah, it's my thing, Pen.

[Penn Badgley]

What? Why did you almost turn this down?

[Guest]

Same reasons. Different. Different. You know.

[Penn Badgley]

Are you overacting? Are we done?

[Guest]

Am I overacting?

[Penn Badgley]

Is this your retirement podcast?

[Guest]

Am I overacting? Yeah, I. I'm. No. I mean, I think of anything. I've. I've. I feel like I'm finally coming of age as an actor. Maybe. We'll see.

[Penn Badgley]

Well, this is the last season, so.

[Guest]

Yeah, but I'm not done.

[Penn Badgley]

You're gonna keep going?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay. So you. You eventually were like, yes, I'm gonna do it. You said before that it was not.

[Guest]

I should say it was not such a resolute. No.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay.

[Guest]

I was interested in the premise far more because it was. Yeah, it was a different kind of role. I mean, people love to draw the similarities, and I'm responsible for drawing some of them between Dan and Joe. But, I mean, they're not the same. Like, I, like. Like Joe is the show. He is the lens through which everything happens. So being in that position is a completely different experience as an actor. You get to do a whole lot more. And because of the depths to which he goes, there's just a lot. A lot more of the spectrum to explore as an actor. So it was a. You know, I knew it was an incredible opportunity when I. When I saw it. At the same time, I wasn't sure that I wanted to give expression to this kind of character for an undisclosed period of time. Had it been a film, be like, all right, right. Three to six months done.

[Penn Badgley]

I do, though, as I was just listening to you say that, though, it just made me realize, like, I. Which is incredible for you as an actor. Like, I do think this now is like holding a light to Gossip Girl, where it's like, it does. You now are really. No.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

You could be on us one side of the street, and someone's gonna know you as Gossip Girl, and then the other side is going to be Dan. Like, sorry, you. And I actually feel like that is the hardest uphill battle to. Like we were just saying to do. To have people not just think of you as one character.

[Guest]

So now I just want them to think of me as two.

[Penn Badgley]

Now you got two.

[Guest]

We're going three.

[Penn Badgley]

Dan and Joe.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Now we need another basic name for the third. Who's the third gonna be? Dan. Joe? N. Tim. Tim. Matt.

[Guest]

I said Tim, but, yeah, Carl. That's not basic.

[Penn Badgley]

I hate that. That's not. Okay. A huge theme is obviously toxic masculinity. How have you approached being a character that is, like, completely toxic? I mean, beyond toxic. Is it a weird headspace to be in sometimes?

[Guest]

No. I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done. Which is crazy, by the way. Wow. It became real easy, even early on, but easy even the way, like, you know, you might be a marathon runner, but by the end of a marathon, you're like, I'm about to fall over. You know, that's the way it was. Easy. It was. I mean, he. By the end of every season, by the middle of every season, I usually had back problems because all the expression of rage is just, like, a lot. It was like running. Yeah, it was like running a marathon. It's highly athletic every time. Time. Very physical. You know, a lot of. Not a lot of speaking on camera, so a lot just, you know, coming into my body. Physicality of performance was really lovely to explore over the years. And. And then the voiceover was interesting, too, finding that. I feel like I really found it in the sixth episode of season one where that episode was almost all voiceover and then silent acting and I actually had a mask of prosthetics on because he'd been badly beaten at the end of that of, of the previous episode. Okay, so what was your question?

[Penn Badgley]

No, I was just asking like, is it weird to get into this character that's like really up?

[Guest]

So, so, so actually I would say in some ways it's quite fun. There's levels to it, day to day basis, kind of fun, kind of taxing or, or it can be very taxing. Really interesting moments of strangeness that are fun to explore. Overall, it's been quite a, quite a, an endurance test in a way because, because of just the level of commitment that it takes and then choosing to speak about them in a way publicly, which I think like just adds a level of responsibility to the whole thing. So, you know, it's just, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a lot.

[Penn Badgley]

The final season. Do you think fans are going to be happy with the ending?

[Guest]

I mean, it's not without its, you know, anything is going to be. You cannot land a six season or five, five season series. You're gonna fumble here and there. But I think where it really matters now, unfortunately here I can't talk about it in a way that's like more substantive, you know, because I wouldn't want to spoil it for you either.

[Penn Badgley]

Please don't.

[Guest]

But it's, I think it's very satisfying for a lot of meaningful reasons.

[Penn Badgley]

Okay, I'm gonna end the episode the same way you end some of yours. If you could go back and talk to your 12 year old self, what would you say?

[Guest]

I would want to give him a really long hug. I would want to be the man, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have, like up until way too late. I'd want to hold him first so that, as you know, that, that Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars song, it's been stuck in my head so much. I want to hold you just for a while. Okay.

[Penn Badgley]

Maybe you're going to bring the band back.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Acting.

[Guest]

I would love to play music, but you know, I got to find the right people for that. I, I, I would, I would hold him just for a while and, and I would have to get back into the time machine, so then I would die with a smile. I don't know that I could say, you know what a 12 year old wants to what a 12 year old needs to hear and will actually listen to is not necessarily what we would say. So I don't know, you know, I mean, the, the essence of what everyone always says is basically like, it's going to be okay, like, you're going to be okay. And I would want to communicate that, but I don't know how he would hear it. So I think I would just, just hold him and just let him feel like not only that you're okay, but like, this is the point. If you haven't, if there's anything you're missing, if there's anything you're feeling, a way that you're hurting, this is the point. You have to learn somehow.

[Penn Badgley]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You know, it's beautiful. Yeah.

[Penn Badgley]

Penn, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on Caller Daddy. That was truly a pleasure.

[Guest]

I appreciate it.

[Penn Badgley]

It's really nice podcasting with podcasters.

[Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Penn Badgley]

So much easier. 10 out of 10. Thank you.

[Guest]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Alex Cooper]

Hi, Daddy gang. It is your father. I am so excited that Caller Daddy has officially joined the SiriusXM family. I cannot wait to talk to new guests and continue to share my crazy personal stories and experiences with you every single week. If you want to hear new episodes ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM podcasts on Apple Podcast to start your free trial today. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone who handles your personal information is as careful as you are. Which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first [e-mail] daddy terms apply.