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Rachael Kirkconnell: I Was Blindsided
01:40:01
Join Alex in the studio with The Bachelor’s Rachael Kirkconnell. Rachael details her blindside breakup from Matt James after four years together. She discusses why they never lived together, the insecurities she struggled with in their relationship, how the breakup conversation started, and what she thought of his abrupt Instagram announcement.
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- [00:03]
Alex Cooper
What is up, Daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Rachel Kirkano. Welcome to Call Her Daddy.
- [00:14]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Thank you.
- [00:15]
Alex Cooper
Obviously, you're going through a very, very public breakup right now. It's, like, not under the best circumstances that we're sitting down together. I think it was a shock to the world. We're going to find out today if it was a shock to you, but just, like, overall, how are you doing right now?
- [00:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It's different every day. I'm doing okay. I would say some days are better than others. Like, one day I'm, like, feeling kind of empowered. I'm like, you know what?
- [00:57]
Matt James
Yeah, it's okay.
- [00:58]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, I'm excited to be on my own. And then the next day, I, like, can barely get out of bed and I just miss him and I'm sad about everything. So, yeah, just comes and goes. It's different every day.
- [01:10]
Alex Cooper
I think that, like, why I especially want to talk to you today and what we're going to get into, though, is, like, even you just saying that is so relatable. Like, probably everyone watching this has been through a breakup, and a breakup is, like, not linear, where you're like, one day like, oh, my God, I'm perfect again. So, like, I. I appreciate you being honest because breakups are so emotionally devastating and hard, especially if you're the one getting broken up with. I obviously want to talk to you about everything that's happened, but first, I do think it's kind of important we just kind of go back to, like, when you met Matt on the Bachelor. Why did you want to go on that show?
- [01:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Oh, my gosh. It's actually a funny story. I didn't want to go on the show.
- [01:52]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [01:53]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Did not sign myself up for the show. My friends nominated me, and they didn't tell me that they nominated me. I think they put in just some, you know, the filled. Filled out the online thing. And I got a call. I was grocery shopping. It was like, middle of COVID So I'm getting this call from a random LA number and I'm like, that's so weird. Like, who's trying to reach out to me right now from la? But I was grocery shopping, so didn't answer. Got a text from the same phone number. Didn't open the text. I was like this. I. I thought it was, like, a job. I was applying for jobs everywhere. It was like one of those things where it was like, you know, I don't think anyone knew what was going on in the world, so I just was seeing what could happen? And so I thought it was a job getting back to me. And then I got a voicemail. So then I'm like, oh, my gosh. I need to call these people back if, like, they're actually, you know, trying to set up an interview with me or something. So I get to my car, and I immediately listened to the voicemail, and it's someone from the Bachelor saying they received an application from me. I thought it was a joke. I thought it was a prank. I text my friends. I'm like, who did this? Like, what's going on? So three of my friends started freaking out, and they were like, oh, my gosh. We filled out an application for you, like, months ago. So it's real. I didn't think it was an actual thing. And at first I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm gonna be the villain or I'm gonna be one of the crazy girls. I didn't know how it worked, so I was like, I'm gonna be. I don't know. Just not. It's not gonna go well for me. So at first I was like, no, I'm not doing that. That sounds crazy. And then I did have a call with them, and they were like, you know what? Just go with the process and just see. Like, my friends were like, just see what they even want from you. Like, I just want to see the ins and outs.
- [03:47]
Matt James
I was like, okay.
- [03:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So I started doing interviews, and I still was, like, really nervous about it, really not feeling it, but it was Covid, and it was just like a. Let's just see where this goes. Then they announced Matt in June, I think, as a bachelor, and that's when I was like, wait, okay.
- [04:05]
Matt James
He's very, very attractive.
- [04:08]
Rachel Kirkconnell
He seems like a great guy, and I would love to get to meet him.
- [04:11]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [04:12]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So that's when I was like, okay, Actually, this would be really fun if given the opportunity. And I don't think any of us found out. I think, like, two weeks before we had to fly out, we got, like, the okay if we were on the show or not. So I had two weeks to, like, decide if I wanted to do it, get all my shit together, and, you know.
- [04:31]
Alex Cooper
Wait, why do you think your friends applied you? Like, had you come out of a breakup? Were you chronically single? Like, what was your vibe?
- [04:39]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think at the time, a lot of my friends were in relationships, and I wasn't. And my friends love or loved the show. I don't know if they really watch so much now, but at the Time loved the Bachelor. I think it. It just, um.
- [04:56]
Matt James
Whose season?
- [04:57]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think it was pilot Pete season. Right.
- [04:58]
Alex Cooper
Oh, my God.
- [04:59]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And it was a shit show. It was great tv, you know? So that was, like, peak Bachelor, I would say. My God. So my friends were like, we need to get one of our friends on this show. And, I mean, it was like, me and I think two other girls in our group were single, and they just were like, we need to apply Rachel. We think she'd be great.
- [05:16]
Alex Cooper
Had you been in a serious relationship before the Bachelor?
- [05:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Honestly, not like an adult, like, serious relationship. I think my last relationship was a year before that. It was about six months, and it was with, like, one of my best friends. Growing up, we were just always, like, you know, had feelings for each other, so we gave it a shot, and it just was one of those things where we probably should have just stayed friends.
- [05:43]
Alex Cooper
Classic.
- [05:45]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And it wasn't even him. It was just more so me. Like, I was just going through a. A hard time or a weird time in my life, and I was like, I don't need to be in this relationship, especially with, like, one of my best friends. And now to this day, our relationship's weird.
- [05:58]
Alex Cooper
But that's, like, the worst. When I have people write in all the time and they're like, should I go for my friend? And I'm like, my advice is just prepare that it will never be the same. So. But I also, like, commend you for, like, going for it, because then also, you. Then the other side is you always have the what if? Like, yeah, would we have been perfect? So I guess, like, hearing that, though, like, was there any part of you knowing how the Bachelor works that you were nervous at all? That, like, this is something that ends in engagement after a couple weeks of knowing someone?
- [06:28]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think, like, it was one of those things where I couldn't even believe it was happening. Couldn't even believe that I kept making it through these interviews and that I got the call and that they actually wanted me on the show. I feel like. I don't know. I told myself, like, I'm kind of boring. Like, I don't know if I would be good TV for this show. I guess I was confused why they wanted me on the show. And so I think the whole time, even when I got there, I'll never forget walking, very first night, walking out of my hotel room and seeing one of the girls. She's so stunning, so perfect. Her name is Sarah. I saw her, and I was like, I. I'm screwed. Like, all of these girls are so stunning, gorgeous, seem perfect. And I just was wondering, like, why.
- [07:21]
Matt James
I was there, really.
- [07:22]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And then it got to the point where I was like, well, I guess, like, I just hope I make it past this first night. So I never. I guess I didn't really think too much about an engagement only because I didn't think I would ever get that far.
- [07:35]
Alex Cooper
I think that makes sense. And I don't. Like, I think sometimes with the Bachelor too, like, people would be like, so you weren't going in for an engagement? Like, I don't think anyone goes in with that headspace. I think it's kind of more your situation where you're like, I'm throwing myself into this situation. There's no way I'm going to end up at the end.
- [07:51]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And there was, like, 40 girls on our season, too, right? So I'm like, what are the odds out of 40 plus or, you know, 36 to 40 girls? Why would he pick me? I don't know. I was like, there's just no way that out of all these women that he would be interested in me. Of all.
- [08:08]
Matt James
Whoa.
- [08:09]
Alex Cooper
What was your first impression, like, in person of Matt when you met him?
- [08:13]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I don't want to say, like, love at first sight, but definitely just, like, total infatuation. Like, right off the bat, I feel like we had a connection immediately. And it's funny, though, because I'm sure all the girls say that when they first get in. Like, we clicked or we sparked or whatever. But I think he would agree with that, that we both just felt a connection immediately, and it felt very comfortable and, like, we were just talking to each other. Like, there weren't a million cameras and million people around. We were talking about, like, Waffle House and, you know, just stupid things that they probably were angry that we were chatting about because they're like, this is not good tv.
- [08:55]
Matt James
Right?
- [08:56]
Alex Cooper
They're like, let's ramp it up. Like, either make out or get in a fight. And you guys, like, boat walk.
- [09:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And that was like. That was like. Every conversation we had was just like, we were just talking about stupid stuff that wasn't good for tv, but to us, it was just natural, normal, fun, easy conversation.
- [09:13]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, it's like the real in life. Like, it's not going to be all glamour once you guys leave, but you guys may be literally going to awful house. And, like, you'll want to be chilling.
- [09:21]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Show is like, they're like, tell us your deepest, darkest secrets and your trauma, you know, and it's like, I'm sure, you. You'll get there eventually, but I'm not gonna, like, tell someone that two minutes into knowing them.
- [09:32]
Alex Cooper
Right.
- [09:32]
Matt James
You know?
- [09:33]
Alex Cooper
So what was the moment that, like, really made you realize, like, oh, my God, I'm fully falling in love guy?
- [09:40]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think it was, like, right before our one on one. I didn't get a one on one until, like, the fifth week of filming. I was pretty late in the game to get a one on one and I don't know, just like, what little time we would have together. It was just so easy. And I hadn't, like, clicked or just sparked with someone like that maybe ever in my life. Just like, right off the bat, just, like, so into each other, you know? And then it was definitely, like, solidified on our one on one. We spent the whole day together, and I was like, okay, I can really see myself with this person. And you always have to ask yourself, like, is this bubble of is this just infatuation? Because we're in, like, this romantic setting and we're getting, you know, all this incredible treatment, and you're literally in a fairy tale. So it's easy to fall in love or fall hard in that situation. But even with all of that, like, knowing that was in my head, thinking about it, I still felt like, no, this is real.
- [10:52]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. Like, you knew if we step outside of this, I still feel like no matter if anything, like, there's a chance you were excited to get out of that, to, like, live real life.
- [11:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Because you're guessing by the end.
- [11:02]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. Right. Um, obviously your guys season ended pretty unconventionally. You got the final rose, but Matt didn't propose. How did you feel about that decision?
- [11:13]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So, you know, like I said at first, engagement wasn't even in the back of my mind. Like, I just wasn't even thinking that was ever something that would happen to me. But then I think when we finally told each other we were falling in love with each other on our one on one, I was like, all right, this could be a very big possibility now. So it's definitely something that I have to think about. But it was one of those things where it felt like it was out of my control because I still. I wasn't the one handing out roses at the end of the day. So it was one of those things where I told myself, like, if we do make it to the end of this and he proposes to me, of course I would say yes. The proposals on the Bachelor are just interesting because I think you've seen plenty of couples. I think you've seen Plenty of couples re propose and say, like, this is the actual engagement. And I'm not saying that the engagements aren't real on the show. But I think now, having been through.
- [12:17]
Matt James
It all, it would be so crazy.
- [12:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
To get engaged with someone you barely knew and you've only known each other for a few weeks. And so I was totally okay with that. We had a conversation off camera about not getting engaged. I knew that was coming.
- [12:34]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [12:35]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I didn't know if the show would convince him that he needed to do it or that he realized he should do it. So I told myself, like, if it was. If it were to happen, I would say yes, but I didn't expect it to happen.
- [12:48]
Alex Cooper
So you were, like, fully on the same page. Like, it's okay if he doesn't propose. Like, if anything, you're having conversations off camera and he. Did he come to you and be like, hey, I. Like, what was that conversation like?
- [12:59]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So that was during Fantasy Suites. It's like, the most time you get off camera. So we were just talking about what that final day would look like. And I think that we were both worried about production having, like, little tricks up their sleeve, which ended up, you know, us not getting our final date. And I remember Chris Harrison showing up to my door telling me that Matt's really confused and he doesn't want to see me. And at first I'm laughing because I'm like, this is so you guys. This is not him. But then I have a meltdown because I'm like, well, whoever it is, I don't get my last date now. And, you know, we don't get, like, our last moment together before all of this ends. And now I'm going into this proposal feeling terrible and feeling very insecure and just weird about the whole thing. Like, it was a really heavy feeling on the day. Um, but I knew.
- [13:58]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [13:58]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I mean, as soon as he said he couldn't propose, it was one of those things where I was, like, not disappointed, but I just was thinking, like, okay, you're not proposing, but are we still gonna be together? I guess I was like, what's true? What's not true? Are you about to break up with me? Are you about to leave? Like, are we about to not be together? Or do you still wanna be with me? So then when he was like, I still want to be with you. I wanna try this out in the real world, I was excited. But the rest of the felt like they were literally breaking down the set as we were still doing, like, our final. They were done. They Were like stop waist of a seat. Yeah. They were just. I felt like a failure like because they didn't get an engagement out of it.
- [14:37]
Alex Cooper
I'm dying. They're literally breaking it down. They're like, you guys, we wanted him down on one knee. Yeah. But what I do like, I think a lot of people respect about that is like we've all seen like people on social media now and everything is like less romanticized as maybe it was back in the day because of social media. And we get kind of like glimpses behind the scene of like what actually reality TV is not so reality moments. But I do think there was a level of respect maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her will actually work out because they're literally going to do even more work off camera now rather than we have seen couples be like, yay. And then they like don't even last two weeks past it. So I, I think that there was a sentiment of like, maybe he is real for making that decision in the beginning.
- [15:25]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Well, that's what I thought at the time. Like when we're having that conversation off camera, I'm thinking like, wow, he's so level headed. And I love the idea of like us one day getting engaged for us and not for an audience and not for people that like won't care in a week or two.
- [15:39]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, obviously then you guys film and then as the show was airing, some controversial photos of you came to light. And during the final episode, Matt basically made it pretty clear like he was going to take a step back from the relationship. What was really going on with you guys?
- [15:57]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think that he felt so much.
- [16:00]
Matt James
Pressure with just how the state of the world was or the state that.
- [16:06]
Rachel Kirkconnell
The world was in at the time with Black Lives Matter. And that was the year after George Floyd. And it was like just such a heavy, heavy topic in our country at the time. And then of course all of the controversy within the show did not help. And I think he felt so much pressure to just make the right decision and to stand by what was right for him at the time. And you know, strangers and people that were really close to him in his life were saying like, I don't think you should be with her. And so I think at the time he thought that was the right decision just to take a step back and. Yeah, not, not be together.
- [16:53]
Alex Cooper
How did you feel about all that? And like how was it articulated to you?
- [16:58]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It hurt because it felt like he was doing it for others and not for himself. It felt like he didn't want to not be with me, and he did want to be with me, but he just felt so much pressure from everyone to not be with me. And so even to this day, I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on that, like, what was the right decision, if he should have stood by me or not. And I never held that over his head. I never will hold that over his head, because I don't know how he felt in that situation, and I never will understand. And I know that he thought he was making the right choice and the right decision, and I'll stand by him, you know, forever with that. That was okay.
- [17:48]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [17:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
As much as it hurt, it was.
- [17:51]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [17:51]
Rachel Kirkconnell
One of those things where I'm like, you know what? You do need to do what's best for you in this situation, and I understand.
- [17:57]
Alex Cooper
So you guys end. But was it, like, we're gonna take a break, but we're still gonna talk. Were you guys, like, completely done? Like, did you think this relationship is complet. What were the next steps after that kind of ended?
- [18:10]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So I was definitely shocked when he broke up with me only because we were very happy together, Even with all of the chaos around us, when it was just me and him behind closed doors, it was amazing. It was so much fun. We were so happy when we decided to not let the outside noise get to us. So I don't know. It was one of those things where we broke up, and he said, we're broken up. But we did still talk, like, every single day. I think we went a few days without talking at first when we first broke up. And then after that, it was one of those things where we just started slowly speaking again. And it was one of those things for me where I was like, are you happy? Like, are you happy with this decision? Like, do you think that you'll be okay moving forward without, you know, at least just seeing if this is real? Like, we both think it is.
- [19:12]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [19:13]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And, yeah, we slowly just started talking again. And I think after the final episode aired, and there was a big group that was mad that we weren't together. Like, there was, of course, the people that were like, you know, good job.
- [19:31]
Matt James
Yes.
- [19:32]
Rachel Kirkconnell
You shouldn't be with her. But then there was this group after the finale, because there was a lot of speculation, but no one was 100% sure if we weren't together or not until he said on the show. So I think when we saw how many people were like, you should just be together, like, what the heck? I think we both had to sit down and have this conversation of like, okay, like, let's put all of this outside noise aside. Let's put everyone aside. What do we want? Like, how do we feel? And we just came to the conclusion that we really do love each other and we really do want to make this work or at least give it a chance. Like, let's give it a fair chance. Even with all the craziness. And we did, and it was great. Even with. I mean, I think that first year was hard, but I was gonna say.
- [20:18]
Alex Cooper
Like, I think I remember, like seeing things on me chronically online. Reality Steve. I'm like, how do I even know that name? But I remember, like when you guys were kind of in what seems like this in between. Like I was gonna ask, like, were you talking to other people? Was he talking to other people? Like, did you guys have an agreement? Like, it's okay if we hook up with other people? Like, what was the.
- [20:44]
Rachel Kirkconnell
We never really discussed that. I think, like, I was. I was barely getting out of bed, let alone dating other people. Like, I was just so not okay. And I just wanted to be with him to where dating, that was just like so out of the question for me. Like, that wasn't even a thought I had in the back of my mind. And I felt like when we were talking, we never discussed it, but I felt like things that he said and, you know, us talking every day, it seemed like he wasn't either. But that was not the case. He definitely was. And that's okay because we were broken up. I just wish I knew. Yeah, because I found out. I found out via reality Steve. Well, he contacted my. Well, now she's my sister in law, but she or reality Steve contacted my brother's girlfriend at the time and she told me and I was with Matt.
- [21:42]
Alex Cooper
What did he say?
- [21:43]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So he basically said that there was a girl that reached out to him saying, like, you know, Matt and me have been speaking. He's been trying to get me to come over and hang out. And I just saw that him and Rachel were seen together in New York when he was literally just trying to hang out with me like two days prior. And I don't think she knows, so I just want her to know. And so I was given that information and I was just. I was really, really upset just because I felt like it was definitely kept a secret from me. He technically didn't lie. Cause I never asked, but at the same time I never would have. Well, maybe he did lie a little bit. Now I'm trying To think about it, maybe there were some lies in there, because I was very, very, very upset when I found everything out. And I just remember telling him that he lied to me. So with all of that, I just remember storming out of his place, and I was like, don't ever talk to me again. Like, we're done. Because I just found out a lot of stuff all at once. And, yeah, I just was definitely a little bamboozled, for sure. So then, like, we go another week without talking, and long story short, he ends up being in Atlanta for work, and I'm at my friend's apartment, and the hotel they put him in is right next to my friend's apartment. Like, could throw a rock at it, you know? And, yeah, I think he saw my location. He saw. I was, like, literally 100ft from him. And he was like, I understand you probably don't ever want to talk to me again, but can we meet just so I can apologize and just, you know, share my side of things? And I said yes. And we sat in my car. I wouldn't let him come up. Their apartment.
- [23:35]
Alex Cooper
Classic.
- [23:36]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So I. I met him downstairs, and we sat in my car and talked for, like, six hours, just sitting in the parking garage. And, you know, he explained everything. I heard him out, and it was just one of those things where he was like, just give me a chance. I'm sorry. And I do love you, and I do want to be with you, and I'm done, you know, playing these games.
- [24:00]
Matt James
Like, let's give this a real shot. Let's get back together.
- [24:03]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So I said, okay. I gave him the chance because I loved him.
- [24:08]
Alex Cooper
When you got back together, coming off of that. Coming off of the dynamic on the Bachelor, like, did you have a hard time trusting him?
- [24:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Thousand percent. So I told myself, like, he has a lot to move on from with me, and then I have a lot to move on with from with him. So we both need to decide, like, if we really do want to be together, we need to forgive and move on. And I think that's a lot easier said than done. I just was really insecure the first year of our relationship. I think it was everything that happened, of course, but also that power dynamic, like him being the lead of, you know, a dating show and me just being a contestant. And, yeah, I felt like there was always that. That just not imbalance of power, but it definitely felt like he was, like, the star, and I was just, you know, his little, like, groupie or something. And it's not like anything he did, it was just. I think that probably every couple that comes from the show might have a little bit of difficulty in that area of, like, you know, you were this person that 40 women were fighting over and that everyone's obsessed with. And then I'm just, you know, some girl. That's how it felt.
- [25:39]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [25:40]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And so. And then even. Yeah. Going out publicly, it seemed like I told myself that the world hated me, that everyone hated me, but everyone loved him. And so I feel like when we would go out, it would be like, oh, Matt, James and Rachel. I don't know. And I don't know if that was in my head or not, but that's.
- [25:57]
Matt James
Just how it felt.
- [25:58]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So I definitely felt. And it was one of those things where I'm like, he could get anyone. He could have anyone. Why is he with me? And so when he would go do things without me, I'd be like, there's probably someone hotter and cooler and more fun than me hitting on him right now. And why is he even with me?
- [26:16]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [26:16]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Just really, really insecure. I felt like I had a hard time trusting him because of what was happening when we were apart.
- [26:27]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [26:28]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And that girl coming to reality. Steve and everything. I'm just, like, asking myself, like, are you still doing this? But I know to this day, like. And I even see this online now, he's not a cheater. You know, he. I never actually had to worry about him cheating on me because technically, if he was ever with other women, we were apart. So I can't, you know, call him a cheater or worry about him cheating on me.
- [26:54]
Alex Cooper
Was that the only time that you guys were apart when he was with another woman or was there?
- [26:57]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [26:58]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [26:59]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Yeah.
- [26:59]
Alex Cooper
So the whole. So from your understanding, the four years of your relationship, he was faithful to you?
- [27:03]
Matt James
Yes.
- [27:04]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think I see a lot of that right now because I reposted a funny video on TikTok of, like, some girl I don't know doing something to her best friend's ex boyfriend. So now everyone's thinking that there was. But that was before we even broke up, so.
- [27:19]
Alex Cooper
So the first year was difficult, but then there's three years to come. That. And again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, seemed like you guys were so happy every time I opened Instagram, you guys were in a new city or a new country and you were trying different foods, and you were, you know, being thrown into these beautiful other cultures and experiences, and it just felt like you guys were on this whirlwind together. Like, how did that Lifestyle of just constantly going and traveling together feel.
- [27:51]
Matt James
I think at first.
- [27:55]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It was so fun. Like, I. I couldn't believe that my.
- [27:58]
Matt James
Life was what it was.
- [27:59]
Rachel Kirkconnell
You know, I just went from being this normal person to going on this crazy dating show, actually falling in love, being with the guy, and then we're doing these really fun experiences that I would have never done otherwise. So it was so much fun, even through, like, all the insecurities and everything. But I think for the first, like, two years, it was just fun dating. Not really too worried about, like, a proposal and marriage. I mean, we definitely always had those conversations, but I don't think either of us were in a rush yet. Like, I think those first few years, it felt like a normal relationship.
- [28:44]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Rachel Kirkconnell
You know, when you. I think in, like, the real world, dating for a few years without a proposal or marriage is normal.
- [28:55]
Alex Cooper
Yes.
- [28:55]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So that's what we were both telling ourselves. Like, we just want to have the most normal relationship possible because it definitely started out very unconventionally, and it still is crazy just having, you know, strangers care about your relationship. It's great sometimes, but, yeah, other times it's a lot. So it was just really not. It was. I hate saying it wasn't too serious, but it was just more fun and really getting to know each other and just dating. And then I think, like, last year, our third year. Well, I guess that was two years ago now. Yeah. So I guess our third year of dating was when I started to just ask, like, okay, so where is this going? Like, what? I didn't ever want a timeline of things I never wanted to know, like, when a proposal was coming. I think, like, some girls these days, like, they want to know when it's coming. They want to pick the ring out, they want to pick their outfit out. And I always told him, like, I don't want to know anything. I want to be so shocked, so surprised. But I do want to know that that's where your head's at and that we're on the same page, so.
- [30:12]
Alex Cooper
And what would he say?
- [30:13]
Rachel Kirkconnell
He seemed like he was on the same page.
- [30:15]
Matt James
Like, that's why it's.
- [30:17]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Try not to cry.
- [30:18]
Matt James
Okay. It was, like, just confusing to look back on now, because when we would talk about things, he always seemed like he was on the same page privately and publicly. You know, whether we were doing interviews or whether he was replying to people in comments, like, talking about getting married and everything like that. So, yeah, I guess it's just hard to think about. It's just one of those things. That you replay a lot over and over again because the words were there and, you know, us talking about taking the next steps, all of that was fine. But, you know, the actions obviously weren't there.
- [31:09]
Alex Cooper
I was gonna say, like, from my understanding, obviously, you spent four years together, but you never lived together.
- [31:18]
Matt James
No. So, like, that was another thing. He said that he didn't want to live together until we were married. And he's a very religious man. So I was like, that's okay.
- [31:30]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I can do that.
- [31:31]
Matt James
But at the same time, I'm a.
- [31:33]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Little confused because we're still, you know.
- [31:37]
Matt James
Traveling together, staying in the same hotel.
- [31:40]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And it was like we were living together. Like, half of his stuff is still.
- [31:44]
Matt James
At my place in Georgia right now.
- [31:46]
Rachel Kirkconnell
But he always had an apartment in Miami or New York. So we were either in New York, Miami, or in Atlanta. And I think at the time, I just didn't worry about it too much because it was fun. I feel like whenever we would talk about our life, we would say, like, we want multiple homes anyways, like, to be. Or just, you know, a little space here and there, like a home. Home somewhere. But it'd be fun to have to keep the apartment in Miami or keep the apartment in New York. And so I think that I was making excuses for it because it was one of those things where we were saying that that was going to be our life anyway. So I guess I just didn't think too much on it. But I also think it was me trying to justify it just because I didn't want to worry, like. Well, is this, like, fear of, like, you know, taking the next steps? You know, of course you don't want to admit that to yourself. So now. Yeah, looking back on it, maybe that's.
- [32:46]
Matt James
Is what it was.
- [32:47]
Alex Cooper
But did you have any friends or your family? Be like, rachel, how are you guys not living together yet?
- [32:55]
Rachel Kirkconnell
No, only because the religious.
- [32:58]
Matt James
Yeah, well, it was like, we basically.
- [33:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Did live together, at least in Georgia. It was like our house. Like, that's where home base was for us, I would say. Like, that's where most of his stuff was. That's obviously where all my stuff is. And whenever we weren't traveling, that's where we would be.
- [33:14]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [33:15]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So it did feel like we were living together, but at the end of the day, it was my place. I don't know. Yeah. So it was just one of those things where looking back, probably. That was probably a red flag, but I just tried to tell myself that it was okay.
- [33:30]
Alex Cooper
When you say that you guys talked about engagement do you mind sharing Just, like, how detailed did you guys get? Like, did you talk about how many kids? Did you talk about where you went? Like, can you share?
- [33:41]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Yeah, I honestly think we talked about.
- [33:45]
Matt James
Family and kids more than anything, which is, like.
- [33:52]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That sucks more than anything, I think.
- [33:54]
Matt James
Because I think when you picture your life or you have an idea of what it's going to look like, and now I'm like, I have no idea what life looks like from here on out. And, yeah, it's sad to, like, think about these. I'm trying not to laugh at myself, but, like, yeah, I'm, like, picturing these kids that are obviously, like, no longer a thing, which, like, kind of sounds crazy. I'm not trying to sound like an insane person, but you don't sound crazy. That's. Yeah, that's probably, like, one of the saddest things about it is just picturing your life with someone and thinking, like, that is how your life's gonna look, and then now it's just all taken away. But, yeah, we. We talked about rings. He told me a few months ago to start, you know, saving some things, picking things out, or that we should go look at some. And that was a big deal, I would say, for him to say. That's when I was like, wow, okay. He really is, like, on board with this. Like, that was such a green flag to me. And I felt like the longer we were together, the more he was able to talk about it. And I think at first, I could tell it was something that did scare him a lot, or it was, like, a really hard thing for him to talk about, and it just seemed easier and easier as our relationship went on, so I thought. Felt like that was a good sign. Yeah.
- [35:27]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And, yeah, I don't know. I just. I think when he started talking about kids and picking out a ring and wedding food and where we want the wedding, like, stuff like that.
- [35:41]
Matt James
I used those things to just hold.
- [35:43]
Rachel Kirkconnell
On, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any actions following those things, but when you're told these things, you just, like.
- [35:52]
Matt James
Want to hold on to them.
- [35:53]
Alex Cooper
When you look back at those conversations, do you see any, like, patterns or themes of, like, when he would engage in it? Like, was it when you were like. You know what I mean? Like, was there any, like, him engaging, being, like, I want you to be the mother of my children? Like, I want to have a wedding? Like, do you. Did you ever see a pattern?
- [36:15]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I definitely would. I'm sure I would bring it up more, but it Wouldn't ever be in, like, a pressure kind of way. It would just, like, come naturally in a conversation. But he seemed more than happy to. To talk about things, too. And I don't know, it wasn't like, a pattern of, I think, for. At the end of the day when I think about things. Like, the words were there, but the actions weren't.
- [36:45]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [36:46]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, they weren't matching. So he would say these things, but then, okay, well, what are we. What are you doing to get this? If that makes sense? Like, what are we doing actively to have an engagement and plan a wedding and all of this stuff? You know, like, you said that we can go look at rings, but. Okay, is that gonna happen? You know, because it was one of those things where I was like, okay, you said that, but I'm gonna. See, I'm gonna let him bring it back up if he meant it. You know, that's tough because from what.
- [37:22]
Alex Cooper
I'm hearing from you, too, it's like you're, again, kind of, like, waiting for him to engage in some capacity, and it's, like, kind of on his terms. And it's. I'm like, that. I'm. That's really hard. I'm sorry. Cause it's hard to break then that pattern of, like, when someone is kind of the one in control to get to just feeling like we're in a partnership and it's not me. Kind of, like tiptoeing and seeing if you're interested. Like, it's hard to break that cycle.
- [37:51]
Matt James
Yeah. It's just. It's.
- [37:53]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It's such a weird thing to begin with, because at the end of the day, like, it's mostly men who propose.
- [37:59]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [38:00]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, it's, of course, different for everyone these days, but everyone's like, yeah, she's on his timeline. She's on hips timeline. I'm, like, sitting here, I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I don't know. It's one of those things where at the end of the day, he's the one that needs to get down.
- [38:15]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [38:15]
Alex Cooper
On a knee, I think, in a beautiful way. And this is what. I know we're about to get there, but, like, just cutting to the other side of it for you is like, I've been there where I felt the same exact way, where I was like, we. He talks about the house in Westchester with me, and we're, like, together, but I still, like, nothing has happened yet. Like, I can tell you now, having a partner, that it does feel super, like, 50, 50, and everything with my husband, like, I wasn't surprised at all when, oh my God, his name is Matt too. When Matt. But like when Matt would like bring things up about future or like, let's go ring shopping together. Like where in previous relationships I was. And I think I recognized because I had never had it, which I'm like hopeful for you to experience of like it was. We were so in lockstep that I could have gotten down on one knee, you know what I mean? And like, I like. So I think I get what you're saying. And I think a lot of women experience this where like we condition ourselves to believe. Like it. Well, it is his decision at the end of the day. And I think unfortunately, like, that's not how it should be. Yes, the gesture for him physically getting on the knee is so romantic and fun, but like, you should still have a say in whether it's gonna happen or not and not have to wait for someone.
- [39:47]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [39:47]
Alex Cooper
To do that for you.
- [39:48]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [39:49]
Alex Cooper
And I think a lot of women are going to be sitting listening to this interview being like, Rachel, like there may be women listening to this that are realizing right now, Rachel, like they're in the same situation as you is like he keeps saying these things. The words are there, but the actions aren't.
- [40:02]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [40:04]
Alex Cooper
I'm curious, like over the course of your relationship, we're talking about engagement, we're talking about a wedding. Did Matt ever express any doubts about your guys future together?
- [40:15]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I think there were times in our relationship where I don't want to say he seemed scared, but I think that he felt the weight of marriage really heavily on him. And I think that's for him to.
- [40:35]
Matt James
Discuss, like why he felt like that.
- [40:38]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I never knew if it was because there was something wrong with me or like not wrong with me. I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me. Even though like, of course it feels like it sometimes.
- [40:50]
Matt James
But I asked myself, like, is it.
- [40:55]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Me or is it him? Like, is it something that he needs to figure out?
- [41:01]
Matt James
You know, is there something that scares him?
- [41:04]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Is there something that he went through growing up that, you know, he has.
- [41:09]
Matt James
This trauma now, or am I just not like his perfect person? So I would just say.
- [41:19]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I still don't know. I think like time will tell and.
- [41:22]
Matt James
I think that he'll have to answer.
- [41:25]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That and figure that out.
- [41:26]
Alex Cooper
But obviously every couple like has their problems. Like, no couple is perfect for you and Matt. Like, what would typically trigger an argument.
- [41:41]
Rachel Kirkconnell
We really didn't argue a lot. When we would argue it Would more so be like, someone did something to piss the other person off. And then, I don't know, it was like we both. I guess we were both pretty stubborn, so we both thought that we were in the right and that they were in the wrong, and we just had a hard time seeing eye to eye sometimes. Like, I was always trying to remind him. Sorry. I was always trying to remind him that we are on the same side and the problem is the problem. Like, we're. We're arguing like this when it should be like, okay, we're a team.
- [42:28]
Matt James
Here's the issue.
- [42:30]
Rachel Kirkconnell
How can we fix this together? It was either that or it was just acting out of, like, in the moment, acting out of anger and not meaning things. So then it was one of those things where I was like, okay, if we're ever annoyed or irritated, let's just, you know, take a breather. Let's not talk for a second and really try to figure out what the actual problem is, like, where this anger is stemming from, and then we can discuss it.
- [42:58]
Alex Cooper
Was there someone in the relationship that would, like, apologize first more often?
- [43:04]
Matt James
This is. What's crazy is I feel like I.
- [43:09]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Was apologizing a lot. Even if I was the one that was mad about something. We would sit down, and I'd be like, I'm annoyed about this. And then at the end of the conversation, I would be the one that would be saying sorry. And I started feeling crazy. But at the end of the relationship, he basically said that I have a hard time taking accountability and apologizing. And I'm sitting here, I'm like, I'm going crazy because I feel like I.
- [43:38]
Matt James
Do say sorry a lot for things.
- [43:40]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That I'm not even, like, sure what I'm saying sorry for, you know, but that's. Maybe that was his argument that I wasn't understanding. I think that we just had no.
- [43:50]
Matt James
Rachel hard times understanding where we were each coming from.
- [43:54]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And now I still feel crazy. You know, I'm like, I.
- [43:57]
Alex Cooper
First of all, you're not crazy. And what you just said. One of my really close friends just went through where she was like, I'm always the one having to take accountability. And he's getting so mad at me if, like, I don't own it. But I'm like, we.
- [44:09]
Rachel Kirkconnell
But, like, am I like, yeah, why.
- [44:12]
Matt James
Am I. I didn't do anything.
- [44:13]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, we're in this fight because you did this, and somehow I'm upset, and then I'm having to. That's like, that's not healthy. That's not fair to you. Because when you look back, why do you think you were so quick to take accountability and arguments, even if it wasn't your own problem?
- [44:31]
Matt James
Because he was just so, like, adamant that I have a hard time, like, admitting I'm wrong or taking accountability. And so when your partner is telling you those things, like, you want to believe them. You want to be like, okay, if this really is, like, a problem I have and something that you're really upset about, then of course, like, I want to try to do what I can to fix that. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know.
- [45:05]
Alex Cooper
The feeling of leaving an argument and not feeling like you both won. There is no winning. It's like, oh, God. We. Like, you kind of said, like, we came together and we solved that together. Like, how did you feel a lot of times when you would apologize, like, and then you walk away from that situation after, like, the 50th time? Like, did it start to weigh on you?
- [45:26]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I would say it didn't weigh on me in the sense that it made me angry, but it almost worried me that he was going to leave me or break up with me or that I wasn't good enough. I think, like, when you're told that you're the one in the wrong, then you're like, okay, so what can I.
- [45:54]
Matt James
Do to be better or be a better partner? Yeah.
- [46:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Now, looking back on it, you have to.
- [46:02]
Matt James
I have to ask myself, like, was it deserved or not?
- [46:05]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I don't know. But, yeah, it was one of those things where I went into the conversation irritated with him, and then I leave the conversation, like, hoping that he's not irritated with me and that I'm sorry, and I want him to not be mad at me. Like, you start to lose your mind a little bit.
- [46:25]
Alex Cooper
Let's talk about the breakup. From what we can see online, when your relationship ended, you were in Tokyo together. What was the state of your relationship when you were going into that trip?
- [46:53]
Matt James
It was great.
- [46:54]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I mean, we were literally talking about engagement, marriage, all the things on that trip. We had been together since, I think it was, like, January 3rd. I met him in London. So we were in London having a great time. And then we went from London to Tokyo just because we had the time. And we had these, like, flight vouchers that were expiring for, like, an international flight. And Japan is, like, my favorite country in the entire world.
- [47:30]
Matt James
So we were like, let's just do.
- [47:31]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It while we can. So it was very unplanned. Very last minute trip. But it was fun, exciting, you know, everything was great. There was nothing wrong.
- [47:43]
Alex Cooper
So, okay, so we're in Tokyo, everything's going fine. What happens?
- [47:48]
Matt James
So it's, it's just so hard to grasp because I still, I don't even know if like he knew it was coming like, or if he, or if it was like he at the moment. I don't know. So everything was fine the night before. We didn't have an argument, but I was feeling very overwhelmed. I was like trying so hard to find like a good dinner spot for.
- [48:19]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Us because the spot we ended up.
- [48:22]
Matt James
Wanting to go to was closed or something. So we were scrambling and I was putting so much pressure on finding a good spot because he cares. Like, this is like his career, you know, like going to good food spots.
- [48:36]
Alex Cooper
So he would do like a review if you guys got there of like.
- [48:39]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Food, any, anywhere we'd go if it was good. Like literally every single meal that we.
- [48:46]
Matt James
Would have, we were filming.
- [48:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So yeah, I think I just put so much pressure on myself to find good spots if I'm the one that's finding a spot. So on top of that, I just started my period.
- [49:00]
Matt James
I felt terrible.
- [49:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, just was having like a rough few hours, I guess. And I remember asking him to help me find a spot and he was like, you know, no, like I, I think he was like doing something else on his phone and he was like, it doesn't matter where we go. Like, we can go literally anywhere. Just like pick somewhere. I don't. He kept saying, like, it's not a big deal, it doesn't matter. But I felt like it was a big deal and that it did matter.
- [49:26]
Matt James
So we get to this place.
- [49:27]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It wasn't what I thought it was going to be and it was just one of those things where I'm like tired, cranky, emotional on my period, feeling terrible, overwhelmed with looking for a dinner spot for like an hour and then we get there and it was a disappointment. So then I started tearing up at dinner.
- [49:47]
Matt James
Two tears.
- [49:47]
Rachel Kirkconnell
One, two, we're done. Didn't, you know, allow myself to get upset after that. Just tried to calm down. We went home and did he say anything? No, didn't say anything. But in the past, if I have like a little meltdown like that, or if I'm feeling overwhelmed or anything, he just like lets me move through the motions, get it all out of my system and then, you know, okay, I'm ready to talk, like something like that.
- [50:18]
Alex Cooper
So dinner, like, did you guys have like normal conversations?
- [50:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
No, we didn't even. We didn't even talk. Like, we just sat there, had dinner, got into the Uber.
- [50:25]
Alex Cooper
Wait, Rachel, why did you feel so upset about, like, the menu not being good?
- [50:33]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I felt like whenever we would go somewhere and it was bad that I. It was just disappointing because I think, like, we're on trips. It's like every meal counts. Like, every dinner, every. Everywhere we go, it counts.
- [50:48]
Matt James
Or it just.
- [50:49]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It's important because you, you know, only have so many meals in the day. And this sounds crazy, but as like a food person, I'm trying to just make sure that he's getting good content for our trip and stuff. Cause I know, like, it's important to him and that it's something that we'll both post about. So I'm just feeling bad, I guess.
- [51:17]
Matt James
That it was a bad spot.
- [51:19]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And then.
- [51:20]
Alex Cooper
Are you feeling like you're disappointing him?
- [51:25]
Matt James
Yeah, I guess. I guess.
- [51:27]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Yeah. Disappointing him or just. Yeah, like, I think he was just.
- [51:33]
Matt James
Like, what is the big deal?
- [51:35]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So we finally get to the hotel and I give him a hug and he.
- [51:40]
Matt James
I could just tell, like, he was.
- [51:41]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Just like, you know, not very comforting. And I'm like, are you mad at me? And he was like, I'm just so confused, like, why you were so upset. Like, what was that? And I explained to him, I'm like, I felt like I had let you down. Like, I felt like that was disappointing. And I hate going to a place that isn't somewhere that, like, you could post about.
- [52:04]
Matt James
I feel like it's a waste.
- [52:06]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And he just was trying to tell me, like, it's not that serious, like, it's not that big of a deal. But then he was concerned about me getting so upset. He was like, that was like, there was no reason for you to get upset like that. And he found it concerning that I got that emotional, I guess. And so then I was. And he just was trying to express to me, like, if you get emotional about little things like this, like, what is going to happen in life when something really terrible happens? Like, how are you going to be able to react to things that are actually really scary or disappointing or sad? And I think, like, I don't know, it just hurt to hear because I'm like, I probably would react to things.
- [52:58]
Matt James
That are terrible in a sad way.
- [53:00]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, what do you mean? I don't know. It felt like I was being punished for crying. I was just so weird. I don't know. Still don't really know that whole situation. I just was really confused by his Reaction.
- [53:10]
Alex Cooper
And in the past, like, how does Matt usually respond when you are upset?
- [53:15]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Um, he'll let me. Like, he'll give me my space.
- [53:18]
Alex Cooper
Do you want space?
- [53:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
No. No, I don't. I, like, want to be comforted. But for some reason, Matt always thought that I'd need space. And then we'd talk about after. Even though I would tell him, like, I don't want you to, like, give me my space, because then I feel like I'm not getting any support, you know, or, like, comfort from you. But that was just something that he thought. Like, he just needed me to calm down, and then we would talk and everything would be okay.
- [53:53]
Alex Cooper
So this happens, and then is literally the next day the breakup?
- [53:58]
Matt James
Yes.
- [53:59]
Alex Cooper
So you wake up the next morning. What are the vibes? Is he tense? Are you guys acting weird? Like, take me through that whole day.
- [54:08]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Everything was fine. Like, when we went to bed, he was saying, like, it's okay.
- [54:11]
Matt James
It's okay.
- [54:13]
Rachel Kirkconnell
So.
- [54:15]
Matt James
I just let it go. He let it go.
- [54:17]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It was totally fine the next day.
- [54:19]
Alex Cooper
Okay.
- [54:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And I think it was one of those things where, I mean, literally a.
- [54:25]
Matt James
Few days before, we're talking about how he.
- [54:32]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Feels lucky to have me as a partner and that, you know, there's just, like, so many qualities that he loves that I have and that, you know, we see relationships with other people where they deal with a lot and are put up with a lot of things. And he's like, it's just so nice that, you know, I just feel, like, very lucky that I can call you my partner. And that was so crazy to think.
- [55:01]
Matt James
Like, that was, like, two days before the breakup. Yeah.
- [55:05]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And that morning, everything was fine. We were in good moods. And I think it was one of those things where it was just a little. Maybe a little arguments. Open up a can of worms. So we were on the way to get some food, and I was, like, scrolling through my phone, showing him a bunch of videos. I guess I was bothering him. I was annoying him. And he didn't snap at me, but he basically was like, okay. Kind of snapped at me to where I got mad at him because I was like, you know, even if I'm annoying, you don't treat me like that. And so then it seemed like we were both kind of, like, mad at each other, annoyed with each other. So when we got to this place, it was just this big market with a bunch of different food and everything. So we get there, and I just walk off and go do my own thing for a second. I'm picking up, like, Chopsticks and things for my friends. And he's going to find this like matcha spot that he was really excited to try. So we kind of just get there and split up for a little bit, which wasn't, you know, normal. Like usually we would be doing these things together.
- [56:32]
Alex Cooper
And how do you feel in that moment? Like, are you. Do you have a pit in your stomach? Are you like, something's off?
- [56:37]
Rachel Kirkconnell
No, I just was like, I didn't think anything serious, like too much of it. I really didn't. I just was annoyed with him, that's all. Like, I was annoyed with him and he was annoyed with me. Like, it really didn't even seem like.
- [56:49]
Matt James
That big of a deal.
- [56:51]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It was just one of those things where you're just like, you know, at that point we had been together non stop for like three weeks. And I think, like, you just get annoyed with each other about little things. And I think that's where we were. We were just like irritated with one another with little things. But I didn't think anything of it. It just, it was what it was. And then we had some food, we got back in the car and I just was being really quiet. And he was like, you know, can I ask, like, why you're being so quiet? And I was like, I'm just. I feel like you're irritated with me right now. And I really, like, want to say anything if I don't have to say anything because I just don't want to bug you. Like, I just don't really want to chat right now if there's nothing I have to say because I just want to try and like, give you your space because I feel like you're annoyed with me right now. And that is just like what opened up everything. And we had gotten into an argument right then and there, like walking in the street. We skipped lunch, we went back to the hotel and just ended up having like a bigger conversation. I think that's what I was saying. Like can of worms where it wasn't a big deal. We were just a little irritated with one another. But then it was like, okay, now that we're back here again, where like, you're annoyed with me, I'm annoyed with you. I feel like you're in the wrong. You feel like I'm in the wrong? He really just kind of let out everything that I guess he had been.
- [58:33]
Matt James
Feeling for a while.
- [58:35]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I don't know.
- [58:36]
Alex Cooper
Can you share some of that?
- [58:37]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Yeah, I mean, he just.
- [58:42]
Matt James
He said.
- [58:43]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That at the end of the day there were Just qualities about me that he worries about having in a wife. Like, at the end of the day, like, there are things that we aren't compatible with, and, like, the whole accountability and saying sorry and all, that was really the main thing. And, yeah, it was just one of those things where he, I think, just had this realization that I should want to propose to you by this time. Like, at this point in our relationship, I should be wanting those things, and I should be ready for that, but I'm not still. I still don't feel like we're ready or I don't feel like I'm ready. I don't know if I ever see myself proposing to you. I can't actually see myself married to you. He said that, you know, maybe one.
- [59:54]
Matt James
Day he would get there, but he doesn't feel ready now. And I told him, I said, well, I feel like after four years, you should know, or you should feel ready. And if you don't, then that's not a good thing. We probably shouldn't be together if you don't feel like that after four years, because you know me better than anyone. I know you better than anyone. So you should know by now if you see this for the long haul or not. And it was just one of those things where it was like, do you want to make this work? Like, do you think that it's me? Or is it something with you? Like, are you scared? Or is it really me? Like, is. Is your perfect person somewhere out there, you know? Is it not me? And, yeah, he came to the conclusion that he didn't think it was me and that he. He said, like, he just didn't want me to end up resenting him by, like, wasting more of my time if it wouldn't happen. And, yeah, he just said, you know, you're. You're beautiful, smart, and funny, and you'll find. You'll find someone. You'll find a guy belt will love you for you. But, yeah, he just didn't think that it was him, but it was just really. It's just a lot to hear at once because a few days before, you know, I'm hearing the opposite in that moment.
- [61:48]
Alex Cooper
Rachel, were you, like, vocalizing, like, anything in terms of, like, why have you. Why have you been so vocal? Like, I've seen him on podcasts, and he's commented in random, like, fan accounts being, like, engagements coming soon. Like, he's been overly vocal more than you about, like, telling the world, like, oh, it's coming. Like, it's coming. Which, like, is a Little odd. I'm not gonna lie. Like, in my opinion, I was like. Like, how much he was speaking about it. And yet, like, now what you're sharing, for him to just, like, quickly be like, never mind. Like, in that moment where you're like, then why have you been saying this? Why did two days ago you say I was, like, the perfect partner with you?
- [62:34]
Matt James
I think because he. I think it's because he did love me or does really love me. And I think he wanted it to work out. And, like, I think he wanted to be. To picture it. And it was one of those things where it was like, well, it would definitely be easy too. Like, it just would make sense. And that was like, the next steps naturally in our relationship. And he does love me to where I think he just wanted it to work. But I. I guess at the end of the day, like, as much as he wanted it to work and as much as he loves me, he still just doesn't think that I'm, like, the person for him. And so I think maybe he was just trying to see if he could get there or convince himself that it was the right thing. But, yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm like, I still don't know. Like, I don't know if he reacted out of anger or spite or if he didn't mean it. And to be totally honest with you, if he didn't post it so publicly, like, right after he broke up with me, I don't even know where we'd be right now. Because I think when someone tells you that to your face, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't ever picture us getting married. It's your time to walk away. Like, I can't stick around after that, even if I want to. Even if it's hard for me to let go. And, like, I love him so much, and I wanted him to be my partner. But, yeah, I think when someone says that to you, it's like, what else? What else can you do? Yeah, you have to give it up. At that point.
- [64:15]
Alex Cooper
When you were hearing him say all of this to you, like, what was going through your head?
- [64:23]
Matt James
Honestly, I think, like, I was worried that he thought that for a little while. Like, I guess in the back of my mind, I always wondered if he had doubts or, like, yeah, just had doubts about me being his. His person. And I only had those doubts because, you know, the actions, like I said, weren't following up with his words. So I'm like, I feel like I Just want to be with someone who, like, is so excited to be with me and wants to. Wants to marry me and is excited to, you know, start a life with me. And I feel. Feel like it was definitely one of those things with him where I could feel like he was nervous, but I just always told myself he was nervous because of, like, how he grew up and he didn't want to end up like his father or just didn't want to, like, end up in, like, a broken home. And that he took it really, really seriously, which he would probably say the.
- [65:38]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Same thing, that he just put so.
- [65:40]
Matt James
Much weight on it because he never wants to do to his family what his dad did to them. But I also told myself that I think, like, sometimes that put, like, a.
- [65:59]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Hindrance on our relationship. And I always wondered, like, is it.
- [66:06]
Matt James
Me or is it something that, like.
- [66:08]
Rachel Kirkconnell
We need to, like, work through together?
- [66:11]
Alex Cooper
So at the end of this conversation, is it, like, okay, so we're breaking up.
- [66:18]
Matt James
It ended with him saying, you know.
- [66:21]
Rachel Kirkconnell
You'Re beautiful, smart, funny. You'll find someone.
- [66:24]
Matt James
I'll never say a bad thing about you. And, yeah, we're done. And I literally said, okay. I said, okay. Didn't say anything else. I just said, okay. And then I got my suitcase, went down to the lobby, got in a car, went to the airport.
- [66:41]
Alex Cooper
Did you have a ticket?
- [66:42]
Matt James
Yeah. So I had to leave a day before. Okay. I was trying to make it home for a baby shower that I did not end up going to.
- [66:52]
Alex Cooper
He did this right before he knew you were having to go to the airport to fly from Tokyo to Atlanta.
- [66:59]
Matt James
Yes. So that was. Yeah, just. I just, like, couldn't believe it. Going to the airport, I was like, what the hell is happening? You know?
- [67:13]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. Like, were you in shock? Were you crying?
- [67:15]
Matt James
Both. Just, like, pure shock. So much confusion. Obviously sad because of everything he just said to me. Very, very hurtful. Which. Here's the thing. He's allowed to feel like that if that's really how he feels. You're so allowed to feel like that. I wouldn't want someone to propose to me and be married to me just because they felt like they have to, even though they didn't feel like they wanted to. So at the end of the day, if that's really how he felt, then he is so valid to feel like that. And at least we figured that out before we were married or anything.
- [67:54]
Alex Cooper
Also doesn't take away from the fact, Rachel, that, like, it seems like you were completely blindsided.
- [67:58]
Matt James
I mean, yes, it was definitely out of Nowhere. I don't think he was planning on doing it. I think that it was one of those things where he just came to this realization in our. During our argument. I don't know.
- [68:13]
Alex Cooper
So we have to talk about his breakup post because without a doubt, it is one of the weirder, cryptic. I mean, people on the Internet, like, this is. This is going to go down in history is, like, one of the weirdest Instagram breakup posts I've ever seen. Can you talk to me about, like, where were you when you saw this post?
- [68:56]
Matt James
So I just got into the airport and, you know, check my bags. Everything got on the flight okay, and I'm in my seat, and for some reason, my phone. I think it's because I downloaded a VPN on my phone a few years ago, and now, for whatever reason, it cannot connect to plane WI fi. It just can't.
- [69:21]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I don't know why.
- [69:22]
Matt James
So whenever I take these long flights, like, I'm off the grid. So we're literally getting ready to take off, and my phone blows up.
- [69:33]
Rachel Kirkconnell
It's one of my best friends, and.
- [69:34]
Matt James
It says Rach with a bunch of question marks.
- [69:37]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And as soon as I saw that.
- [69:39]
Matt James
I'm like, oh, my gosh, how does she know? And then she text me again and said, I saw Matt's post. Is this real life? And that's how I found out that he posted. So then, literally, the plane is taking off and I see his post, and that's it. I. I don't have any service or.
- [70:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Anything for, like, the next 12 hours. So I'm freaking out because, you know.
- [70:07]
Matt James
Just got broken up with, and now a few hours later, it's, like, for the whole world to see. And I'm still, like, trying to process it. Like, I'm still in, like, total shock. So then knowing, like, the whole world is seeing this, I'm like, this is so crazy. I can't even wrap my mind around this right now. And I think that's why, you know, I didn't say anything. Still haven't, like, made a statement or anything because I'm processing this just like everyone else is. Like, I'm a week out of this, you know?
- [70:48]
Alex Cooper
So how. What would you say, like, two hours after?
- [70:52]
Matt James
I would say, like, yeah, two or three hours.
- [70:54]
Alex Cooper
He posted that. When you read the post, what went through your mind? Like, what did you think of the post?
- [71:01]
Matt James
I don't know. I honestly didn't think. I guess I was so freaked out about the breakup itself, and then just now knowing that I'm gonna have to Navigate this very publicly. That's kind of all I was thinking. I wasn't even, like, analyzing the post like everyone else was.
- [71:18]
Alex Cooper
Yeah.
- [71:19]
Matt James
So I guess it was kind of funny just to see what people had to say. Like, people thought it was weird that it was a bachelor photo because we definitely, like, tried to remove ourselves from the show. And yeah, it was interesting to see the caption, only because I feel like there was no. I don't know how to explain it. I guess it almost seemed like saying it like a prayer was the easier way to say it than to, like, say something like, real. Not that real, but just something like, authentic to, like, our actual relationship. But it's very him. Like, I guess it didn't surprise me that he said it like that. I guess I was just surprised that he said it at all, that he posted that.
- [72:23]
Alex Cooper
Why do you think he posted that?
- [72:25]
Matt James
I would love to know.
- [72:27]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I don't know. I don't know if it was out.
- [72:29]
Matt James
Of just him being so worked up, if it was out of anger or if it was one of those things.
- [72:35]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Where he felt like he needed to do it, to really, like, finally just like, put a nail in the coffin.
- [72:41]
Matt James
But I have spoken with him since all of that, and I do know that he definitely acknowledges that that was not the right decision.
- [72:51]
Rachel Kirkconnell
The right decision.
- [72:52]
Alex Cooper
So we're gonna get to that because I'm just thinking, one. Was there any part of you on this 12 hour plane ride, one that wanted to be like, sir, can I borrow your phone? Like, were you. I would have been like. Like, just to even see, like, were you worried about what people were saying or no, you were just still like.
- [73:11]
Matt James
Oh, no, I was worried. It's definitely. Yeah, it was one of those things where maybe this ties into my insecurities from the very beginning, But I just felt like there was going to be people, like, celebrating him breaking up with me. I don't know. I don't know. I definitely didn't think that.
- [73:29]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Or just like, people just sad.
- [73:30]
Matt James
Just like, oh, like, so sorry for you guys. Like, sad to hear this, but, like.
- [73:34]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Wishing you both the best moving forward.
- [73:36]
Matt James
I didn't expect it to be this.
- [73:38]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, people getting mad about the posts like that.
- [73:43]
Alex Cooper
I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like, sitting here and listening to it. I know there's like, different steps basically to, like, grieving a breakup, but I can't help but be mad for you because you guys have been together for four years, you've traveled many times together. That man knows that your phone doesn't work On WI fi? On long flights.
- [74:05]
Matt James
Yeah. No, I mean, it's like when I step back and really look at everything, I'm mad. Like, yes, that's fucked up. Like, he should not have done that to me after four years. Shouldn't have. Like, he didn't even text me to give me a warning, like, saying like, hey, I'm posting this. So it just hurt to know that, like, that's how my friends found out in my family and like my little sister and that I didn't even like, get to talk to them about it or just like grief privately for like a day, you know. So even like landing was just so scary. Just like the anxiety that came over me knowing I was like about to get service back and I didn't know what I was about to see and I just knew my phone was going to be blown up from all my friends and my family and everything. So that hurt.
- [75:05]
Alex Cooper
What happened when you landed? Like, did you get an Uber home? Who did you go to first? Who did you talk to?
- [75:13]
Matt James
I landed and I did have my car at the airport. So I was driving home and at this point I think the post went up like 6:00am U.S. time or like New York time. So I think I landed at like 6pm so it had been like all day. My friends were waiting to hear from me. Rachel. I got in my car and I just like did a voice memo and just let them know what happened. And yeah, I just went home. And you know, by the time I got home it was like 8 or 9 o'clock. So I just went straight to sleep because I was exhausted and when I'm depressed, I just like completely shut down and I just sleep and I don't get out of bed. So I did that.
- [76:03]
Alex Cooper
Did you text him? Like, what the hell? You didn't text him?
- [76:06]
Matt James
No, no, I just felt like the best thing at the time was just to not talk to him and because he didn't give me the decency to like, give me a heads up or even just give me a few days. Like, it's one thing to. I don't even think you should post a breakup announcement the same day you break up, but let alone, you know, not even give me a warning that you're doing it. So, yeah, I just went home, slept for like, what felt like, you know, 48 hours and then finally woke up to my sister coming in my room. She has a key to my house, so she like let herself in and like, woke me up and hung out with me for like the next few days. And then I finally like, told my friends I could see. I could see them and hang out with them. On Saturday was the first time I saw some of my friends just because I just needed just to be by.
- [77:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Myself for a bit and just not.
- [77:22]
Matt James
Talk about it or think about it.
- [77:24]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I just wasn't ready to like, debrief.
- [77:26]
Matt James
And like, I think when you talk about it, it just feels more real. Real. So I just wasn't ready to like, accept it, I guess.
- [77:40]
Alex Cooper
When breakups also happen, I think one of the biggest mind is like, you're sitting there, you're laying in your bed, you're so upset, and the one person that you like, want. Yeah. To talk to is the person that just hurt you.
- [77:58]
Matt James
Yep.
- [77:59]
Alex Cooper
Who reached out first. And like, yeah, that was so hard.
- [78:05]
Matt James
I completely agree with that. Where it's like, I'm laying in bed and I want him to comfort me, but I'm. But he's the one that hurt me and I'm so mad at him. But I'm also still like, so sad and of course, like, I still love him. So, yeah, just a lot of emotions to work through. And I woke up like at one in the morning and I had a missed call from him. This was, I don't know, like four, five days after, maybe from the post. And so I called him back because I just didn't know why he was calling me. I didn't know if he was giving me a heads up about something or if he needed something or if he was just calling to talk. I didn't know. So I called him back just to see what he wanted and he just asked how I was doing, which I'm like, why do you think I'm doing? Like what? Right. And then, yeah, I confronted him about the post, said, look, you know, that really sucked. And that's when he was like, yeah, I fully admit that I could have handled this a lot better. And he apologized. And you know, sometimes people when they're in a really bad state or they're really, really angry or really, really upset, you know, you make mistakes or you don't handle things in the best way you can. But I don't think that. I just, I don't want people thinking that, like he's this bad guy or that he's like, not, I don't know, considerate of my feelings or whatever because he is a good guy at the end of the day. But obviously he made a mistake doing that. But I think he knows that and I think he regrets it. So, yeah, it's Just hard because I'm like, I would. I probably wouldn't even be sitting here if he didn't do that. Yeah. So it's just a lot to, like, process and work through.
- [80:16]
Alex Cooper
Well, no, and I also just want to say, like, this is why social media is so confusing. Because on one hand, I agree, it's like, we probably wouldn't be sitting here if you didn't post that. But also it's like knowing that you are going to at one point have to speak. And I think we kind of, like, were talking about that before this of like, maybe it is nice to just like, sit down and even though it's still so fresh, like, I think there's a chance you're going to look back on this interview in a year, even six months, and watch some of your responses and be like, oh, my gosh, like, I didn't see it then. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has that, Rachel. Like, I've literally done that in every relationship I've ever been in, and so does everyone in the world. Like, you are still in this, like, grieving period, clearly. And you're still even, like, understandably, like, the way that you're defending him. I'm not saying it doesn't. He doesn't warrant it. It's actually just like, when you're getting out of a relationship, you're still kind of in the relationship.
- [81:16]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [81:16]
Alex Cooper
Like that you were together for four years. It's what, been what, two weeks? One week? Yeah, not even.
- [81:22]
Matt James
Not even two weeks.
- [81:22]
Alex Cooper
Yeah, not even two weeks. So it's like, I think a lot of this is on one hand. There's the part of that me feels bad of, like, we're having this so fresh that, like, of course you're not gonna have, like, all the answers or the insight or whatever, but I do think hopefully this conversation is gonna, like, alleviate you from. Listen, Bachelor Nation is amazing. They're also very intense and I feel like every single thing you would type would get picked apart. Like, there was no. We talked about this. There wasn't gonna be like a perfect Instagram post or caption or comment you could leave that would, like, leave people feeling like they have an understanding. Not that they deserve it, but they feel like they do because of the way that your guys relationship started so publicly.
- [82:12]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [82:13]
Alex Cooper
So I think it's this, like, mixed bag of emotions. Yeah. When you were finishing like, that call with him, like, where did you guys leave it? Like, what did you say?
- [82:25]
Matt James
We left it. Like, it's so weird. I was about to Say, like, I just wish we could somehow be friends because he was my best friend and it hurts to not have him as my best friend anymore. But that's like, how we left it. Like, we were just talking, like everything was okay. You know, I asked him, like, how his last day was in Tokyo. And, like, you know, he filled me in on, like, what he. He did. And then, yeah, we were. We were just talking like, you know, everything was fine. And he ended up falling asleep because I called him back at like 1am because both of our jet lag was so crazy at the time. And yeah, he ended up, like, falling asleep and I just hung up and that's that.
- [83:20]
Alex Cooper
How long was the conversation?
- [83:21]
Matt James
It was like, it was pretty long. It was like over an hour at least.
- [83:25]
Alex Cooper
Did you guys talk about, like, are you gonna do no contact for a little bit? Are you.
- [83:31]
Matt James
No, we didn't discuss that. I don't even. I think, like, that's something that we probably have to do. We haven't talked a lot. Like, he's called me every, like, few days just to make sure I'm okay. But I told him that he didn't need to do that. The last time we spoke, I was like, you don't need to, like, call and check up on me. Like, I'll be okay. And so that was. That was that. But, yeah, I don't know why he's. I don't know if he's feeling bad or if he just wants to see where I'm at. I don't know.
- [84:10]
Alex Cooper
In your head right now, like, if you're being really, really honest with yourself, do you think there's any chance you guys ever get back together?
- [84:17]
Matt James
I don't think I can. Which is sad. I don't think I can. Because I think when someone says those things that he said, you know, like, I don't think you're my person. I don't see us getting married. I think that's when you, like, have to call it quits. And then, yeah, just the way that he handled all of this and his posts and everything, like, I forgive him, but I just don't think I can be with someone that. I felt like he disrespected me at the end of the day doing that. So, yeah, it's just one of those things where you, like, have to stand up for yourself, even if you don't want to. Like, of course there's part of me that wishes that we could just get back together and pretend none of this ever happened. But, yeah, that's not the case. And I think, as hard as it is, I think the right decision is to just stand up for myself and be on my own.
- [85:21]
Alex Cooper
I was gonna say, like, I'm so impressed by one. Just, like, how you're handling everything, because I think. I think a lot of people listening right now, understandably, are gonna, like, dissect what you've been saying, and they're going to judge certain things you've said. They're gonna try to analyze things you've said. I've even been trying to do it. I'm like, oh, I have an opinion on that. That. But then I'm also like, it's not my life. This is your life. And I also, again, recognize, like, this is so fresh for you. I do just have to say in the most painful way. And I don't think the way he did it was right. I do think you're gonna look back and you are going to be so grateful that he posted not how he did it, not the way he did it, but the fact that he did it and put it out there. Because I think we all can feel it when there's love and when there's history and when there's not something huge that happened of, like, cheating or whatever. It's so hard not to go back. Yeah, it is easier to go back than to stay away. Because it's your comfort, it's the person that you love, it's the person you've cried with, it's the person that you've envisioned having kids with and a life with and a marriage with and a wedding with and all the best things that come with life. You've pictured it with this person, You've spoken about it with this person. So the fact that you now have to be kind of just cut off from this. I do think it will be a blessing for you, Rachel, that, like, you will look back and be like, I don't know anyone that maybe would have been as strong if. If that post didn't go up to not go back. You know what I mean? Because like you said, you're like, I don't know if he did it in the heat of the moment. I couldn't really tell if we were really breaking up in that moment or if he was just angry. Like, you do deserve someone that without a doubt wants to be with you and wants to start a life with you and wants to build a family and all the great things. And you're right, it doesn't make him a bad person. But just from, like, another woman sitting across from you. Like, why? I said, like, it'll be interesting what you. If you look back on this in six months, it's like, there are a lot of things you're saying that as a girl sitting across from you, I'm.
- [87:39]
Matt James
Like, babe, stand up.
- [87:41]
Alex Cooper
You deserve so much better. And it doesn't mean he has to be then deemed a dick. It's just like, objectively, you deserve so much better. Like, you annoying him or he not. Like, all these little things that I know we're only getting, like, basically 1%, understandably, you're not going to, like, share your whole relationship, but, like, you deserve so much better, and you should not have to feel like you're in doubt. You should not have to feel like you are second to him and like, there's a power imbalance. Like, you shouldn't have to feel like that. And I know I don't need to, like, preach to you, but I just want you. I can tell it's hard right now.
- [88:19]
Matt James
No, I mean, yeah, I completely agree with everything you're saying. Like, I definitely have an attachment to him right now. I mean, how can you not when you spend, you know, every day with.
- [88:29]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Someone for four years straight? And I do love him so much.
- [88:32]
Matt James
But, yeah, it's just one of those things where maybe in another universe, we worked out and things were okay, but it just really sucks to, like, step back and look at how things ended up for us. It's just, like, heartbreaking. But, yeah, I just think I. I do need to just stand up for myself and, you know, tell myself that what he did wasn't okay and that I just need to try and move on.
- [89:01]
Alex Cooper
I also think, like, to everyone listening and even us having this conversation right now, like, I almost started crying when you were like. Like, those, like, children that we envisioned creating together, like, no longer will exist. Like, it's devastating. Like, it's absolutely heartbreaking. But I also think when you get broken up with and you're forced to move forward, I think you're going to have a lot of beautiful reflection, not even on that relationship, but of yourself. Like, even just, like, in the past almost two weeks, like, has there been anything that you looked at where four years is a long time? Like, do you think there's any part of yourself that you compromised or you lost within that relationship? Because when you're in a partnership, you do compromise.
- [89:51]
Matt James
Yeah, I'm sure. I think that's something that with time, I'll start to realize. But I think, like, when I have talked to my friends about it, I think that they definitely said, like, it just seemed like you were always, like, giving 110%, but it was difficult for him to, like, reciprocate it at times. Like, it was like pulling teeth to try and get him to come to a wedding with me and just, like, little things like that. And I love to think I'm this, like, you know, like, badass, independent woman, but I definitely would say that I, like, compromise my values at times because I felt like that was the right.
- [90:40]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Thing to do in the moment.
- [90:44]
Matt James
It was definitely like, you know, he.
- [90:48]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Was, like, not the one in charge or anything, but, you know, he definitely took lead, and I just wanted to support him through everything, whatever that was. And I didn't mind, you know, letting.
- [91:03]
Matt James
Him have the spotlight, I guess, if that makes sense.
- [91:07]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That's poor wording, but.
- [91:09]
Alex Cooper
No, I get what you're saying. Like, just to back you up there, like, a lot of what you've shared with me today is, like, a lot of it's been on Matt's terms. It's like, if it's good for Matt, then you're being a supportive partner. But at what point is it, like, what does Rachel want? And, like, why don't you get to call some of the shots? And, like, what would make you happy? And, like, why are you having to beg him to do certain things? And then when he ever wants to do things, you're like, I'm ready to go. Like, I think that's where I can feel it. Every woman in America watching this is going to be like, rachel, I cannot wait. And I know this is so premature to even be saying, but, like, you've said it to your friends before. We've all said it to our friends when they go through a breakup. And because I've lived it and you're about to live it, where it's like, you're gonna feel the difference when you meet a guy that is all about you and has no doubts. And it doesn't take away from what you and Matt had. But, like, you are, like, he said, you are so beautiful and smart and interesting, and you're, like, a great person. I can already tell. We just met. And I'm like, you're great. You're great. Someone's gonna be so lucky. And that is how you should feel in the relationship, where it's, like, reciprocal, not you keeping, like, wait, wait for me. Like, wait, what about, like, you deserve that. Everyone deserves that. Again, it doesn't make him a bad person. But maybe this is, like, the biggest blessing that needed to happen in order for you to finally find that partnership that is 50, 50, where you do feel like you have a voice of value and you get to stand up for yourself in moments and be like, hey, no, I don't need to take accountability because why are we having this conversation? Because you made me upset over this. So you know what I mean? It's like little things that will come, and I'm still working on it, and I'm married. You know what I mean? So it's like. It's tough, though.
- [92:58]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [92:58]
Alex Cooper
Why did you want to speak on this today? I know I've spoken a bunch, but, like, why did you want to speak on this today?
- [93:04]
Matt James
I feel like.
- [93:07]
Rachel Kirkconnell
When you reached out to me, I. I just really thought about it, and I felt like it needed to have a longer conversation than just, you know, a little story or a caption or. There.
- [93:24]
Matt James
It was just.
- [93:25]
Rachel Kirkconnell
There was so much to it and a lot to break down. And I wanted to do this for me. I felt like I needed to do.
- [93:31]
Matt James
It to get some closure with everything, and I did want to do it.
- [93:35]
Rachel Kirkconnell
For, you know, anyone else who cared.
- [93:37]
Matt James
Like you said, like, we did have.
- [93:38]
Rachel Kirkconnell
A very public relationship, and we did have a lot of people supporting us. And I know at the end of the day, like, the only people who really matter in the relationship is you and the other person.
- [93:50]
Matt James
But I did just.
- [93:53]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I saw all these rumors and the speculation and the theories and all this craziness, and I just wanted to get the true story out there and just share my side of it in case anyone is going through anything similar or.
- [94:09]
Matt James
If they just feel lost, confused, blindsided, anything.
- [94:14]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And if anyone can take something away.
- [94:17]
Matt James
From this, then, you know, I'm glad I came.
- [94:20]
Rachel Kirkconnell
But, yeah, I just really wanted to.
- [94:24]
Matt James
Do it just to help myself move.
- [94:26]
Rachel Kirkconnell
On and get some closure. And I just feel like after four years and after all this craziness, something just needed to be said.
- [94:33]
Alex Cooper
No, I really appreciate you being so open because I'm aware, like, if we had this interview, even in, like, a year from now, I bet if I asked you these same exact questions, maybe 75 of the answers could be really different.
- [94:47]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [94:47]
Alex Cooper
Which is the beautiful part of life and time, of you just being like, you're in it right now, you're in the grieving stage, and slowly more things are going to become more apparent to you. And I really respect how thoughtful you're being about the way you speak about him. And I think Daddy gang listening. Like, once you go through a breakup now you get to just fully focus on yourself.
- [95:11]
Rachel Kirkconnell
And I know that I am excited for that.
- [95:12]
Alex Cooper
Yeah. And I know probably feels weird a little bit because you've been in a partnership where for four years, it's been like, me and him. Me and him. But now I think in a fun way, it's like taking this and knowing all the things of how he didn't make you feel good. Or when moments where you felt like shit and then the good.
- [95:28]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [95:28]
Alex Cooper
And basically know, like, what you want next in a partner. I'm sure there's things that you're like, ugh, I have to have that. Matt had that one thing of whether he's funny or whether it's that, and you're going to look for that. But then, let's be real. You got a list now of things that you're like, I will not put up with that in my next relationship. As you should.
- [95:47]
Matt James
Yeah, as you should.
- [95:49]
Alex Cooper
Is there anything else just in terms of whether it was, like, rumors that you wanted to just, like, dispel that you've read that you were like, wait, that's so not true. That you were like, should we just put an end to it?
- [96:01]
Matt James
I'm trying to think.
- [96:02]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Like, I've seen so much crazy stuff.
- [96:04]
Matt James
I tried not to look, but then when I realized we were doing this.
- [96:08]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I was like, okay, I definitely just.
- [96:09]
Matt James
Want to see, like, what is being discussed. And I think the only thing that.
- [96:14]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Made me really sad reading was people.
- [96:17]
Matt James
Saying that he cheated or that I insinuated that he cheated because he did not cheat. I don't think he ever cheated. I don't think that, you know, at.
- [96:29]
Rachel Kirkconnell
The end of the day, he's at least a good enough guy to be faithful. Like, I never worried about that. And so I just don't want people.
- [96:35]
Matt James
Thinking that he was this, like, unfaithful guy that, you know, broke my trust.
- [96:39]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Or cheated on me or anything.
- [96:40]
Matt James
But it's also kind of fun to, like, tell myself that, you know, I can find myself again and get back to just, you know, loving me and finding my own confidence, because I think it's been missing for four years. I'm not saying that's his fault, but there was probably a lot of stuff.
- [97:01]
Rachel Kirkconnell
That I needed to work through from.
- [97:02]
Matt James
The show that I never have. So, yeah, I guess in a way.
- [97:07]
Rachel Kirkconnell
I'm just excited to work on myself.
- [97:08]
Alex Cooper
I also will say, just girl advice. Don't let him keep coming back in. I so know what you mean by you want to be friends, because how can you envision a World not only not him being your friend, but, like, without him. I get that. No, I know. I'm going to cry because we've all been there. It's like, it's unfathomable to be like, matt's not in my life anymore. But what I will say is, like, from experience, I feel like sometimes the person that ends the relationship has the guilt. Like, there's guilt that. And he keeps calling you to check in. And unfortunately, it's gonna be on you to have to be like, one. He's moving on. Right. But he's also checking in on you.
- [97:54]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [97:55]
Alex Cooper
It's gonna prolong you being able to actually be like, okay, I have to cut ties. And sometimes it does take no contact, because it's like, how can you have someone in your life that you did everything with, you loved all of it, and still be cordial while you're trying to move on? I don't. I don't think that. It doesn't mean you can't in a couple years, like, see each other out or at a bar and so be cordial and.
- [98:21]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [98:21]
Alex Cooper
But I don't think. In my opinion, I don't think friends, at least in the very beginning.
- [98:26]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [98:27]
Alex Cooper
Is gonna allow you, if we're being selfish, for you for a minute, to move on.
- [98:30]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [98:30]
Alex Cooper
You gotta. No.
- [98:31]
Matt James
And that's why I told him. I said, you know, you don't have to call me and check in on me. Like, I'll be okay. Because, yeah, I do agree. I think that, like, even just hearing his voice on the phone, just really hard, you know, and it makes me miss him.
- [98:46]
Alex Cooper
But I promise you, the best part, and everyone that's gone through this, you know what I'm talking about, is, like, you're literally like, no, I literally can't live without him. Like, how is my life going to go on? Like, he's my best friend. He's my everything.
- [98:57]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [98:57]
Alex Cooper
And then when you do no contact all of a sudden, whether you're, like, at the nail salon one day or you're walking down the street or you're at a friend's birthday party or having a wine night with your girls, you're gonna, like, smile to yourself and you're like, oh, my God, I haven't thought of him in, like, weeks. I haven't thought of him. Or even if it's days, you know what I mean? Like, it's slow wins, but then all of a sudden, you move on. So thank you so much for coming on. You are such a sweet person, and I'm really, really, really sorry that this happened to you. But like I said, like, girl, girl, girl, we're getting back out there.
- [99:41]
Matt James
Yeah.
- [99:42]
Alex Cooper
It is only the beginning.
- [99:43]
Matt James
Well, thank you for having me.
- [99:44]
Rachel Kirkconnell
Appreciate it.
- [99:45]
Alex Cooper
Thank you so much.