Leno Law, Toyota Takes EVs Off-Road, Understanding the Software Defined Vehicle

Summary

Car Stuff Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast: Car Stuff Podcast
Hosts: Tom Appel, Jill Ciminillo
Episode Title: Leno Law, Toyota Takes EVs Off-Road, Understanding the Software Defined Vehicle
Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Tom and Jill provide their signature blend of automotive industry news, test drive insights, shopping tips, and fun banter. The main themes include a spotlight on the new California “Leno Law” about classic car emissions, Toyota’s surprising new EV off-roader, and an in-depth discussion with Ken Chester (Tech Mobility Podcast) about the growing role of software in today’s vehicles—the “software defined vehicle.” The episode balances auto news, practical advice, and thoughtful conversations about emerging trends and consumer rights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cold Weather Drives & Volvo’s Snow Prowess (01:13–04:21)

• Jill shares her experience test-driving Volvos (EX30 and XC90 PHEV) in snowy Ottawa, Canada
  • Insights into how impressive Volvos are on winter roads, even with just winter tires
  • Discussion on legal requirements for winter tires in Quebec (Dec 1–Mar 31)
  • “Volvos are incredibly good in the snow… we were driving on snowy trails and it was.” – Jill (03:35)

2. Car News Roundup

Ford Mustang Mach-E Frunk Fiasco (07:52–10:21)

• New $495 surcharge for a finished front trunk (“frunk”) due to changes from adopting a heat pump
• Reduced frunk space (from 6 to 2 cubic ft post-heat pump), but unclear communication from Ford
• “If you want to put something in the two cubic foot container, $495.” – Tom (10:01)
• Hosts criticize Ford’s marketing approach

Lamborghini Cancels its All-EV Lanzador (10:37–11:03)

• Lamborghini axes plans for its first electric supercar—citing “zero demand” for an electric Lamborghini
• A plug-in hybrid may appear later this decade

3. The New “Leno Law” – Classic Car Emissions Exemption (11:04–12:04)

• Tom breaks down California Senate Bill 712 (“Jay Leno’s Law”)
• Would create a rolling exemption for cars 35 years+ old from emissions testing
• Intent: protect classic cars from regulatory extinction

4. Short Car Reviews and Observations

Hyundai Palisade Hybrid (12:12–13:14)

• Hosts praise the new Palisade, but lament low fuel economy even in the hybrid
• “My complaint is the color… cast iron brown. That’s like the clunkiest, dullest sounding name…” – Tom (12:51)

Mazda CX-70 vs. CX-90 (13:17–14:47)

• CX-90 (3-row) outsells the new CX-70 (2-row) by over 4:1
• CX-70 praised for BMW X5-like, European feel
• “This is the most European in feel. This feels like driving a BMW X5.” – Tom (14:37)

5. Toyota BZ Woodland – New EV Goes Off-Road (15:17–22:25)

• Jill test-drives the 2026 Toyota BZ Woodland—an off-road capable EV based on the BZ4X
• Higher ground clearance (8.4”) and optional all-terrain tires
  • Range: 281 miles (all-seasons), 261 miles (all-terrain tires)
  • Mild off-roading: “You’re not going to be crushing any boulders, but you’re gonna get through muddy ruddy crap.” – Tom (18:14)
• Toyota’s expanding EV plans: New CHR and Highlander EVs soon; Toyota was quietly preparing its EV portfolio despite past criticism for lagging on electrification

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Interview: Ken Chester on Software Defined Vehicles (23:48–41:51)

Segment Start: 23:48

What Is a Software Defined Vehicle (SDV)? (28:17–39:01)

• Ken provides historical context:
  • Vehicles have evolved from mechanical/electromechanical systems to complex, code-driven machines over the last 25 years
  • Ford F-150s had 1M+ lines of code by 2013 (28:57)
  • SDV is not just “over-the-air updates”—it means most systems (steering, brakes, drivetrains) are managed by software, with some moving entirely away from mechanical linkage (“drive/steer/brake by wire”)
• Automakers move to fewer, more powerful shared computers (instead of many small system-specific modules) to reduce cost and wiring complexity
• Notable Quote:
  • “People think a software defined vehicle is strictly the ability for over-the-air updates… this has been happening for the last 25 years.” – Ken (32:17)

The Consumer Angle: Cost, Benefits, and Risks

• Automakers push SDVs because of:
  • Lower manufacturing costs
  • New revenue streams (e.g., subscriptions, feature unlocks)
  • Ability to update features after sale
• But: Automakers can choose when to stop supporting older vehicles, eventually “bricking” features (35:50)
• Some try to charge for features that already physically exist (“BMW heated seats” fiasco; Tesla’s undelivered ‘Full Self-Driving’) (36:22, 36:48)
• Right-to-repair concerns:
  • Restricts which shops can work on your vehicle, as they need expensive software tools and codes (39:01)
  • Example: John Deere tractors blocking farmers from urgent repairs

Notable Quotes

• “The quiet part is they heard money.” – Ken (35:50)
• “If you are paying all this money to buy a vehicle… you should have the right to take it wherever you want to get it fixed.” – Ken (37:32)

Takeaway

SDVs are the present and future, blending software with every aspect of car operation. Consumers benefit from updates and customization, but also face costs, subscriptions, and potential limits on independent repair and upgrade.

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6. Fun & Community Moments

Donut Banter (25:01–26:18)

• Jill’s weekly donut “cheat”—discussing flavors with Ken Chester (a podcast regular segment)
• “This is my one cheat a week, so don’t you feel privileged, Tom, that when I am cheating, it is here.” – Jill (25:56)

Listener Interactions & Social Media

• Hosts encourage listeners to join them on Blue Sky as the “car people community has moved there” (43:22)
• Regular shoutouts to loyal listeners and social media followers (44:43)

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7. Quiz Segment: 2020 Cars & Franchise Frenzy (45:10–54:19)

• Tom puts Jill through a quiz on which cars were actually on sale in the U.S. in 2020 (Ford Fusion, Chevy Spark, Dodge Hornet, Toyota Venza, VW Passat)
• Bonus round: Franchise Opportunities—identifying the fake among “Mosquito Squad,” “Urban Waxx,” “Mr. Sparky Electric,” and “Schnitzel Magic Bavarian Bistro”
• Light banter underscores the show’s friendly, informal style

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Toyota BZ Woodland off-roading:
  “You’re not going to be crushing any boulders. But you’re gonna get through muddy, ruddy crap.” – Tom (18:14)

• On SDVs and automaker intentions:
  “The quiet part is they heard money.” – Ken Chester (35:50)

• On overcharging for built-in features:
  “BMW thought people would pay for seasonal availability of heated seats… customers said no. And I think they used stronger terms than that.” – Ken Chester (36:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Volvo winter experience – 01:13
• Ford Mach-E frunk upcharge – 07:52
• Lamborghini EV cancellation – 10:37
• Jay Leno Law / CA SB 712 – 11:04
• Mazda CX-70 vs. CX-90 sales – 13:17
• Toyota BZ Woodland Review – 15:17
• SDV Deep Dive w/ Ken Chester – 23:48
  • What is SDV? – 28:17
  • Right to Repair & Consumer Consequences – 37:32
• Quiz segment – 45:10
• Franchise Bonus Round – 52:12

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Conclusion & Final Notes

This episode captures the blend of practical car shopping tips, irreverent humor, and thoughtful deep dives that define Car Stuff Podcast. The discussion on software defined vehicles is especially relevant, highlighting what car buyers need to know about the increasingly digital future of automobiles. Meanwhile, the news roundups and reviews help listeners stay informed about what’s coming to showrooms now and next.

For full car reviews, more content, and episode links, check out consumerguide.com.

Transcript

[A]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[B]

three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]

[C]

whether you drive a car, need a car, or just occasionally bum a ride with friends, you've come

[A]

to the right place.

[C]

Join Jill and Tom as they break down everything that's going on in the auto world.

[B]

New car reviews, shopping tips, driving green

[C]

electric cars, classic cars, and plenty of great guests.

[B]

This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast.

[A]

All right. This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast. I'm Tom Appel, publisher of Consumer Guide Automotive. Thank you for joining us today. You know the drill. Check out us out@consumer guide.com 2026 Best Buys. My latest review, some fun stuff, stuff that co host Jill has published as well. So that's all there. Jill, how are you?

[B]

I'm. I think you and I are both on the tail end of a cold.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, you can. I sound worse than I feel.

[B]

Yeah, I'm definitely feeling better, but I just have like, some congestion.

[A]

Oh. Because you look like hell.

[B]

Oh, well, thanks. I did not shower today.

[A]

No.

[B]

So.

[A]

I'm kidding. You look. You look great. That voice is Jill Simonello, managing editor. I'm sorry, contributing editor here at Consumer Guide Automotive. I could manage you prolific freelancer. I could use management. And a North American Car of the Year juror. So two things happened last week. I made a mistake and you blew us off. What do you want to talk about?

[B]

I didn't blow you off. I was actually doing something really cool that there will eventually be a story.

[A]

Okay. Were you here?

[B]

I was not here.

[A]

You blew us off.

[B]

I did not blow you off. I was driving Volvos in the snow in Canada.

[A]

I did that once 20 years ago.

[B]

It was really cool.

[A]

Yeah, it's fun. Even if you think, you know, like, we're all cocky and we know about driving and stuff. But even if you think so, it's really great to hit the ice in a vehicle and learn how different the dynamics of driving a vehicle on a low friction surface can be.

[B]

Yeah. And it was really cool. They had like an ice track. We were on The Ottawa river, it was completely frozen over. It had like 3, 3ft of ice and it was like 5 degrees for a high, I think while we were there. And it was, it was, it was, it was cold, but it was cool too.

[A]

So the Volvo default situation on low friction services is, Is front wheel drive. Right. Most of the power goes to the front wheels and then it'll move power rearward as you need it. Sort of the opposite of BMW.

[B]

Uh, you know, I think that's true on the gas vehicles, but I'm not sure that that's true.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Had not considered the EVs because I

[B]

feel like, because we drove the Volvo EX30 and the XC90. PHEV. And the EX30, I want to say is standard as rear wheel drive.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I mean rear drive, more dangerous, more fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On a slippery seat.

[B]

But I mean we were in the cross country version which had all wheel drive.

[A]

Yeah. So gotcha.

[B]

But it was, it was, it had studded tires and we still were slip sledding everywhere.

[A]

So. Good time. You're gonna be writing about this.

[B]

Yes, I am.

[A]

And then just take away. Volvo's good in the snow.

[B]

You know what? Volvos are incredibly good in the snow. And like, all they did on the XC90 was put winter tires on. So not even snow tires, just winter tires. And we were driving. We weren't driving on the ice, but we were driving on snowy trails. And I mean it was.

[A]

You said you were up in Ottawa.

[B]

Yeah, near there.

[A]

I like people around there, probably do snow tires.

[B]

Well, so here's the thing that I learned last week. Every season in Quebec. I'm probably saying that wrong because I want to say Quebec, but it's Quebec.

[A]

I say Quebec.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. I say it's right. I think it's Quebec, like without qua. At any rate. But I've learned that from December 1st until I think like March 31st, they have to put, by law, they have to put winter tires on their vehicle.

[A]

Interesting. So just a little complaint about Quebec. I had a client up there many jobs ago, I had a client in Quebec. They reached out to us, they paid us.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And yet when they called us or when I called them French, it's like, okay, you reached out to me. You didn't ask if I spoke French. This is a pain in the butt. And yeah. And I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, just put the person who isn't going to do the French thing to me through.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

This is, this is Irritating?

[B]

Well, French is their first language. It is. No, in Quebec, it is their first

[A]

language in a sea of English.

[B]

They're surrounded by English speaking people.

[A]

But yes, this was an ad agency. It was irritating.

[B]

They were trying to be irritating then.

[A]

You're not going to believe this, but I made a mistake last week.

[C]

What?

[A]

Co host, guest host, Brendan. Brendan Appella of the Sons of Speed brought up the Chrysler TC by Maserati.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A totally weird vehicle. Not entirely collectible, just kind of a strange thing, a red herring in the automotive world. But I had mentioned that it had a bunch of different engines.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it was this weird Italian vehicle that was co built with an American company and that it had a British engine. But I was wrong. It is actually a Maserati head on a Chrysler engine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I just wanted to correct that. I had said maybe it was Lotus. But as our good friend Sam Fiorani of Auto Forecast Solution notes, the Lotus head that I was thinking about appeared on the Spirit RT and the Daytona Irok RT between 1991 and 1992. Those were great engines, by the way. Collectible cars. So there's that. Thank you, Sam. That's exactly the sort of thing Sam would bust my knuckles on. All right. Later in the show, our good friend Ken Chester of the Tech Mobility podcast is going to talk to us about software defined vehicles.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I've been wanting to have this conversation with someone who knows more about them than I do, which is most people.

[B]

Says the guy who doesn't use Apple CarPlay.

[A]

Exactly. No one cares. But I just got my next list of test cars.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm kind of excited.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

I haven't even seen one of these in person.

[B]

Which?

[A]

The Genesis GV80 coupe.

[B]

I just got that added to my list too. Did you talk about it?

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I'm looking forward to driving that very much. An analog to the BMW X6.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right around that size. And one of those cars you pay more for for less utility.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's got the fastback coupe design.

[A]

What the heck? Happy birthday to Brendan Appel. His birthday is this week.

[B]

He's 68, which means he's probably like 58 or 50.

[A]

I think he's 51.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think Paul Shavari, our first ever producer. Happy birthday, Paul.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He's 83.

[B]

We are so sorry that Tom can't count.

[A]

We talked last week and I'm sure you know about this, about the Cybertruck and the 59, 990 Cybertruck. So there's this bargain Cybertruck coming out. It is in fact four wheel drive, unlike the cheap. The recent bargain truck which was 69.90 and was just rear drive. Anyway, this all might be hubris and bs. Oh, might be people are trying to order this thing and they can't.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or they're not getting delivery for like a year.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I haven't looked into this too deeply, but there's news here and we'll get back to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, here's some.

[B]

Well, you know what? Kind of along those lines. And I don't know if you are going to mention this later. If so, I apologize that I'm.

[A]

Step on my feet.

[B]

Stepping on your toes.

[A]

I welcome it.

[B]

You've got big feet.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Did you see the news from Ford last week about their Frunk on the Mach E?

[A]

Yes, go ahead. It's so stupid. No, no, you know what's stupid? They handled this poorly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They made a change that needn't have been this stupid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was a reason for the change. But that's not what's being focused on here.

[B]

No.

[A]

So run with us. Tell this story because it is silly.

[B]

Well, the idea is they are now going to charge you if you want the front trunk for the Frunk. And I want to say it's like 495. $495. So $500 if. And it was unclear whether or not it was like, okay, they're going to build the frunk, but if you want access to it to be able to lift the trunk, you have to pay the $500.

[A]

That is not the case. It's not that stupid.

[B]

Okay. Okay. I was going to say that would be really st. And then, so, but then apparently then if you would lift the, you know, front hood, you would just see like wires and stuff. There would be an unfinished front trunk area. So no front trunk.

[A]

So this is, this is why this happened. Ford last year went to a heat pump to move heat around the cabin. And it's, it's a really good thing for energy efficiency in the winter when you're heating. And Hyundai uses it like on the Ionic 5 and the Kia EV6. It's very effective way to heat a vehicle without draining the battery. It's using existing heat. So Ford did that and it took up space under the hood. So the problem, Ford's problem was that the frunk, the actual part where you would put stuff, store stuff, was a completely finished and road insulated container, about 6 cubic feet, not huge. But if you look.

[B]

But Enough to fit shrimp, apparently.

[A]

Enough to fit shrimp. I was just going to say that.

[B]

Dear God, I'm stepping all over your toes.

[A]

I like to put my perishable seafood under the hood of a Ford. But the new pan that fits in there is only about 2 cubic feet. So it's lost a lot of its utility. So it makes sense they might just get rid of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that's not what they did. You can still open the hood, you can still look at stuff. But if you want to put something in the two cubic foot container. 495.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To get a finished frunk. And then they claim that they've. They've made it up to everybody by lowering the price of the car. About 150 bucks.

[B]

Yeah. That does not make up anything.

[A]

Yeah. I think that, I mean it might be a good place to keep road flares, a first aid kit.

[B]

I mean, it's tennis shoes.

[A]

Yeah. 495 is a little rough. Let's just leave it there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As a bonus thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The F150 Lightning, which is gone. There's plenty on dealer lots. Just a one that had that huge frunk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Huge frunk.

[B]

Huge frunk.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Five jills in that frunk you can.

[A]

Lamborghini.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Killed something called the Lenzador.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And this was based on a concept car from 2023. It was going to be an all electric supercar. Was going to be their first electric vehicle. And they claim that there's zero demand. And they use the word zero. Zero for an electric Lamborghini.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they may make another vehicle still called Lanzador, that'll be a plug in hybrid. But it doesn't come until 2028 or 2029.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jay Leno.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know Jay Leno.

[B]

We are bff.

[A]

Like have you met him?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh. A lot of people in our industry have.

[B]

Yes. I am not that person. And seems like a cool guy though.

[A]

Car guys love him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my. A company I once worked for worked for him and everyone loved him. Like a great guy. He was very generous with his time after a show. Anyway, there's something now called Jay Leno's law.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I don't think that this has been passed. Oh, it is a bill, I'm sorry, Senate Bill 712 out in California. And this is a bill to protect classic cars from emissions testing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And eventually being shut down and not being street legal.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So Jay Leno is behind this and the whole plan here. There's a Lot of complications to this, but essentially he wants a rolling exemption for vehicles that are 35 years old.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So once a vehicle holds 35 years old, most people wreck their vehicle long before then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It is no longer required to be emissions tested.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right, so there's that. All right. We have to get to your review in a little bit, but I got a couple of more things here. Are you ready?

[B]

I am ready.

[A]

I want to complain about something.

[B]

Well, of course you do.

[A]

I just drove the Palisade.

[B]

So did I.

[A]

The all new Palisade twinning. It's really good.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

It's really, really good. People people buy it. And the new hybrid system, it's really good now I drove it. Do you remember what kind of mileage you got?

[B]

Not good. I feel like it was like 19.

[A]

I didn't get good mileage either.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a hybrid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just drove the Lexus TX350 in which I got slightly. And that's not a hybrid. I got about 20 in this. I got 23 now. The weather was terrible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So that might be why. Yeah, but that's not my complaint here. My complaint is the color.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was a cool looking color, kind of dusty though. It wasn't a matte color. The color was called cast iron brown. That's like the clunkiest, dullest sounding name I've ever heard for a car color. And this is such a modern, good looking car. So I just wanted to whine about that.

[B]

Okay, well, you know, you whining?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Finally. Finally. Are you ready?

[B]

Always.

[A]

I just finished my review. No, I didn't. I have to finish that today I'm finishing my review of the Mazda CX70. That is Mazda's new two row midsize crossover.

[B]

I get that this week.

[A]

Do you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nice car. Except I don't have an except about the car. I have a fun fact.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There's also the Mazda CX93 row crossover, seven or eight people. Which one do you think sells better? CX70. CX95 passenger, I think.

[B]

CX90.

[A]

By a lot. Yeah, by a lot lot.

[B]

Yeah. People want that third row just in case.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly true. And it's not a very expensive thing to get. So in terms of insurance of moving people around, unless you don't want to be the person who has to take other people places.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the CX70 last year, 13,833 units, it's kind of quiet. Meanwhile, the CX90, 55,156. So four times as many vehicles. I wonder if the CX70 is just going to get rolled into the 90 or if they drop it.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. They're both great vehicles. They're both very similar. If you drive one, you've driven the other. The experience is very similar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Except that the CX90 actually starts a little bit cheaper because there's a cheaper trim level. Yeah, we've seen that in a lot of lineups.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the 70, unlike all the other big crossovers I've been driving lately, this is the most European in feel. This feels like driving a BMW X5.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I mean that in the best possible sense. So if it seems a little expensive,

[B]

it's kind of refined, it kind of deserves that.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of cool. The only real difference between these vehicles besides the third row, the CX70, gets a more aggressive looking front end, which, by the way, I can't tell the two apart. That's something. Damon Bell, our Ultron, Damon, that. He's the kind of guy that picks up on stuff like that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. So you, you drove. Did you test drive this or was this at an event?

[B]

It was at an event.

[A]

Okay. The 2026 Toyota BZ Woodland.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

So you may be familiar with the previous BZ4X, which was the original mass produced, you know, electric vehicle from Toyota that came out a couple years ago. And funny name, nice vehicle, not great range, not great range. Funny name. Lots of jokes we had there. Terrible. And so they dropped the 4x for 2026. Yay. And then they added a new model to the lineup, which is the BZ Woodland. And the idea is this is a little bit more of an off road capable vehicle and it is built on the same line as the Subaru, I think. Trail Seeker.

[A]

I wrote this down because I forget this. The Trail Seeker.

[B]

Yes. And so very similarly, just like the BZ and the Solterra relationship, it's the same. Same, same, similar.

[A]

So there's the Solterra and then the Trail Seeker.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they're just like the BZ and the BZ Woodland.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Yes. And so I had the opportunity to drive the BZ Woodland and we drove it on road, we drove it off road and had a fun time tooling around Ojai, California in this vehicle. And it was quiet, it was smooth, and when we went off road, so we were the last wave and apparently there was this massive Rainstorm, I mean, pelting down the rain and they weren't sure that we would be able to go off road in this vehicle because, I mean, it's got 8.4 inches of ground clearance, but that's not like 10 inches of ground clearance if you're gonna sink. Right. You don't want to sink an electric vehicle or fall off of a mountain. Because we were going up the side of a mountain.

[A]

Not recommended.

[B]

No. And so they waited a day and so they gave us an extra day because we were there and had some time. And so we let things dry out a little bit and we ended up getting pretty far up the mountain. We couldn't get all the way to the top. Apparently Paul Walker has a ranch at the top of this mountain that we were gonna try to get there. And they had some awkward. Who's Paul Walker from Fast and Furious?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Who is no longer.

[A]

And he's a car guy.

[B]

Yes. And. But he had this ranch on top of a mountain and they still call it Paul Walker's ranch. And he is like that. So the Toyota had rented that out and set up stuff up there. We could not get up there. That was the only place we couldn't get because there was the rainstorm opened up a ravine in the middle of the road. And we're like, yeah, we're not going to try and go around that.

[A]

Here's, here's a thing. And I'm going to go a little off topic slightly. But when people do leave the road, they don't leave the road that much. And there's this whole level of capable, we can call it Subaru capable. That's going to get 90% of people where they need to be most of the time. And that's kind of what this is.

[B]

100%. That's exactly what this is.

[A]

You're not going, you're not going to be crushing any boulders.

[B]

No, you're not going to.

[A]

But you're gonna get through muddy ruddy crap.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna be like, it's not trail rated like a jeep, but you can like, I think it could do, you know, mild off roading, get you to the trailhead, get you to your campsite, whatever. Really well. And it did have, it does have the option of all terrain tires. So it comes with either all season or all terrain tires, zero cost option.

[A]

And does that affect range?

[B]

It does. So I want to say the range without the tire with the all season tires is 281. And then with the tires it drops down to I think like 261. It drops about kind of a hit. Yeah, it's a little bit of a hit. And so it does drop a little bit. But I mean, anything over 250 I think is going to get most people where they need to be.

[A]

300 is a number. But 250 seems to be a secondary number.

[B]

Yeah, I mean for me I'm always like, am I going to be able to get to my mom's house and that's 200 miles away and if it's a nice day and there it's not Snowing, you know, 250 miles is plenty of ranch. And I don't like go fast.

[A]

I do Chicago, Milwaukee, which is like half of what you do. Chicago, Indy and 250 does it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I can get up there, charge someplace and get back and not worry at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And sometimes I don't have to charge at all. I can just come home and charge locally. So this car slots where in the lineup. Now there's a. There's a new Toyota 2 that isn't at the bottom of the lineup. But you think it would be. And that's the C hr.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

I'm a little confused by that car's mission. Did you guys talk about that?

[B]

We did a little bit. So you have. So the BZ Woodland is the second electric vehicle in the lineup. The CHR is going to be the third vehicle in the lineup. And then the new Highlander will be their fourth electric vehicle in the lineup.

[A]

Oh, I forgot. Yeah. That makes four.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So for a company that was accused of dragging its feet on EVs, they had plans. They had plans, they had plans.

[B]

They just weren't there yet.

[A]

They kept them secret.

[B]

They did. They're good at that. They're crafty like that. But no, the C HR is essentially supposed to be like your get about car, you know, kind of sporty. That's how they're positioning. It is sporty, but it's not cheap. It is not cheap. It is not. But you know what, the interior material is also not cheap. And whenever I got into.

[A]

And standard all wheel drive. Right.

[B]

It is. And so whenever I got into the old chr, the gasoline version, I was always reminded that it was initially supposed to have been a Scion. And Scions were like mono spec. You know, you can have any interior color you want as long as it's black.

[A]

I completely forgot that. Yeah. And the CHR was kind of a fun car.

[B]

It was fun, but it was Very cheap on the inside.

[A]

I fit well in it and it was zippy. I liked it. And it had my daughter started driving sooner, that might have been a vehicle I'd have her look at. Though it was not available with all wheel drive.

[B]

Yeah. And so the standard. With all wheel drive, it has, I want to say standard heated seats and heated steering wheel. And then you can get an option for the, like. There's two trims. I want to say it's LE and xle. And then you have. And I haven't written my review on this yet, so it's to come. But it is, you know, base trim, up level trim, and then you get a little. A few more amenities. The only thing, like, there were only a couple things about the CHR that annoyed me. And the, the, the one thing was, is there's no, like, it's. It's a hatchback, but there's no way to like, release the seats from the trunk. And that was, to me, kind of annoying because the BZ Woodland had that. And, you know, the BZ Woodland is more expensive, but it's not that much more expensive.

[A]

So let's just recap this because you made a very interesting point. Chr, that's the smallest of the Toyota EVs, but not the cheapest. I think the BZ is actually slightly cheaper. And that's their old school mainstream compact crossover. And then there's the BZ Woodland, which is a little bit larger too.

[B]

Yeah. So you'll have BZ chr, BZ Woodland, Highlander. That will be how the.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well. And when does the Woodland go on sale?

[B]

I think imminently.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the CHR comes later.

[B]

I mean, not much later. I think it's. They typically don't give us pricing or let us test the vehicle if it's not going to be on sale within the next month.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There used to be a thing called a long lead. This is Inside Baseball. And it was really for print publications.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Consumer Guide was print back in the day. And I'd go on these long leads and I'd be doing stuff that I wasn't gonna write about for 90 days or didn't have to write about. I should have written about it right away.

[B]

You should have.

[A]

But I was a lazy bastard.

[B]

Well, has much changed?

[A]

There you go. Well, welcome back. We're gonna take a break and when we come back, we talked to Ken Chester, the host of the tech mobility podcast Stick Around.

[C]

Questions or comments?

[B]

Drop us a line@car stuffonsumerguide.

[A]

Dot com.

[C]

That's carstuffonsumerguide.com.

[B]

hi, it's Brendan from Sons of Speed.

[C]

You've heard me and my colleague Paul on the Car Stuff podcast whenever Jill's out of town. But now you can hear us every week on the We Are Motor Driven podcast, along with Jennifer from All Auto Exotica and Harvey from Rides and Drives. We talk about everything from sports cars to trucks to EVs and our favorite speed. So join us each week by searching We Are Motor Driven wherever you get your favorite podcast. Welcome back to the Car Stuff podcast.

[A]

And we're back. This is the consumer guide Car Stuff podcast. I'm Tom with a scratchy voice. She is, is Jill. Jill, throw me a bone here real quick.

[B]

Hey, Tom, are you on social media?

[A]

I am, thanks for asking. Yeah, check me out. I'm just Tom Appel on Facebook. I'm car guy Tom on. I said X Twitter, X Twitter. And blue sky. I'm enjoying the blue sky more now more than ever. A lot of car people going there, so that's kind of fun. All right, you and I have talked on, just touched on the concept of a software defined vehicle sdv. Lot going on there, and manufacturers are moving in that direction. And the question is why and how. And on the phone with us is Ken Chester. Ken is the host of the tech mobility podcast. Ken, how are you?

[C]

I'm doing fine. How are you?

[A]

We are good. I speak for Jill, but she's a little sick too.

[B]

I know.

[C]

But I have a question before we even get started. I haven't seen the picture of the donuts. Oh, you're gonna have to tell me. What are we looking at here?

[A]

Yeah, Ken has been critical.

[B]

Yeah, I did. I did post a box on my store or a picture of the box on my stories, but not the open case.

[A]

Well, tell them what we got. Let's get this out of the way.

[B]

We've got something green.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

I don't know if it's molded or it's maybe celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

[A]

That's mint chocolate chip, I believe.

[B]

Okay, you know, all right, I'll play along then. There's like some kind of a cinnamon blob, which I'm not. I'm not sad about.

[A]

They call it a cinnamon twist, but blob is a good name too.

[B]

It does not look twisty. It is not twisted. And then chocolate on chocolate donut.

[A]

Double chocolate.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's the list.

[C]

I mean, this is a little bit off, off topic. I mean, give. Given Jill's regimen for running and eating healthy and all the things I see she fixes at home. Isn't this kind of a. Kind of falling off the wagon a little, or. I'm not even sure how to describe it.

[A]

Jill, I'll let you take that one.

[B]

This is my one cheat a week, so don't you feel privileged, Tom, that when I am cheating, it is here. Other than that, I eat a lot of kale.

[A]

It is interesting that Ken didn't worry about my physiology at all. Just sort of assumed I'd be the donut guy.

[B]

Well, you are kind of the donut guy.

[C]

I'm going to assume that Tom's been picking out the donuts.

[B]

He has been.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Lodging a complaint with the office.

[A]

Men should probably not pick out donuts

[B]

or curtains or bedspreads or carpet or wallpaper or. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or if you're going to a movie with my wife, the movie.

[B]

Yeah. No, you should not do that.

[C]

That sounds like a can. I don't think I want to open.

[A]

Ken. How are you, sir?

[C]

I'm well, thanks.

[A]

So we've been.

[C]

Now that we got the important stuff out.

[A]

Yes. You know what? Do us a favor real quick. Tell us about your podcast and what else you do. My God.

[C]

Well, I'm kind of like a lot like you guys. The tech mobility podcast is actually a rebroadcast of the radio show.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Folks around the country. I take it a step further, though. I actually have two different podcast streams. I have the Technobility podcast, which is the whole program, and then I break it up into the segments. I have four segments, and that's called tech mobility topics because I find sometimes people are only concerned about that specific 8 to 11 minute topic in question. So you can go there and just hear the topic and not have to listen to the whole show.

[A]

Interesting. Here's our problem. Producer Randy doesn't work for free, so we're not doing that.

[C]

I can appreciate that. Yeah, Producer Randy probably wants to get paid to nervous on people.

[A]

I have. I've actually had people suggest that we chunk up the show, but we have. Well, we have never got around to doing that. And I don't know, I'm way too lazy at this point. So again, we've been talking about this and then you agreed to expand on this for us, but we've been hearing a lot about software defined vehicles. And I think that a lot of people who talk about this don't fully appreciate what that is or don't understand exactly what that is, but we seem to be moving closer and closer to that with every new generation of vehicle. And tell us, what is an suv and why do manufacturers want us to move in that direction?

[C]

Well, I'm going to start by taking a step backwards.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I'm going to take you back now 15 years.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I'm going to take you back to 2011. I weighed less than 2011 was the critical point where the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration had made a deal with the automakers to make certain advanced driver safety features standard. Where we got the traction control, we got stability control, we got a number of features. They estimated that by 2013, a Ford F150 was already running a million lines of code.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

I think what the problem is, people think that the SDV is a brand new thing coming up out of nowhere, and then they conflate that with EVs, and they're not conflated, as you both well know. What's happening is, as we have seen the growth and infotainment systems in a variety of comfort and convenience systems in motor vehicles that has demanded more and more software, less and less hardware. If you want to really go back, I can take you back almost 25 years to a lesson I learned when we had a problem with my wife's 2002 Dodge Grand Caravan. We had a problem with it and come to find out that it was not a mechanical system. It was an electronic software system that had to be replaced relative to acceleration, or I think it was the dashboard. It was something that I expected to be still electrical, mechanical. And it was electrical. And by definition a bit the start of the software. So this has been happening in an increasing number over the last 25 years. Where people are starting to see it now is with the growth of EVs that minus all the mechanical parts, it is totally software. But that's not to say that your internal combustion engine and your hybrids are not considerably more software. I mean, you've got drive by wire, you've got steering by wire, you've got by wire, throttle, my God. You've got electronic thermostats. A lot of things that were mechanical or even electrical. Mechanical have been electrical for some time. And usually the consumer's first introduction to that is at the dealer's service bay. When they find out and they get the quote, they find out, oh, no, no, no. That's all electrical and software based. Now we have to reprogram.

[B]

Can you back up just a hot minute? Because you mentioned drive by wire, shift by wire, and to a lot of people that might sound like that is not software driven. Can you explain what that means?

[C]

Basically it replaces the electric, it replaces the mechanical. Well, let's take steer by wire. Until recently it was rack and pinion steering that controlled it.

[B]

And Jeeps still have those I believe.

[C]

Yes. There's an increasing number of vehicles where it's totally electronic, where it's servos and stuff. There's not a rack anymore that it takes input from the steering wheel that turns the wheels and it's all electronic. I did a story on a electrical Class 4, Class 5 medium duty truck that was totally steer by wire, break by wire. In the case of break by wire, all the hydraulic systems that you are aware of don't exist. It's all electrical.

[A]

Interesting. And that's legal on medium duty trucks because I think we still haven't gotten to the point where brake by wire is legal on light duty vehicles, have we?

[C]

Actually, actually they had gotten approved and it was the, oh, I can't think of the name of the company now, it's been a couple of years since I wrote about it. But they did get approval from the government to actually propel that and they were able to prove it was as safe, if not safer than existing systems. People think that a software defined vehicle is strictly the ability for over the air updates. And certainly that's part of it. That's a small part of it. This has been happening for the last 25 years and it's been increasing as we've moved to more electronic systems, as automakers have moved to simplify the number of computers and vehicles the can bus that they use in terms of reducing the number amount of wiring required. Because it was getting crazy to support all this stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And wasn't Tesla, wasn't Tesla especially good at removing wires from the, from the product like miles and miles and miles of wires?

[C]

Indeed. But the automakers are looking at 48 volt systems. In order to reduce that, they're looking at multipurpose computers. Most people don't realize you have an engine computer, you have a transmission computer, you have a computer that monitors what's going on inside the vehicle. They're trying to get away from these single purpose computers and the wiring that goes with them in order to simplify everything but yet still support all the things that people either want or are being offered in today's vehicles.

[A]

So having multiple system specific computers versus one big computer running everything, is that, is that good thing or bad thing for reliability, do you think?

[C]

It depends. It really depends. If you're Toyota I'm all in. Heck, no. To be very blunt about it, Ford was just bragging now that in their attempt to go eyes free, hands free by 2028, that they chose to do all the sensors and all the programming and all the computer development in house and they estimate that that would reduce cost by 30%. The overriding thing that happens in the auto industry, you both know it, your audience probably does too. But to remind you, it's cost. Automakers fight over a tenth of a cent a unit.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They will get in a room and it will get ugly. Cost is the overriding reason that drives them. Either try to make a profit, make more money from something or reduce cost. And we've seen this over the last 25 years. We've seen the battles, we've seen where Toyota figured it out, we've seen where Stellantis was at war with everybody, which I knew wasn't sustainable. And as a result, if you're a supplier out there with the best technology, you're going to Toyota before you go to Stellantis, if you go to Stellantis at all.

[A]

One of the interesting things I've heard manufacturers defend the move towards software defined vehicles and one of the, one of the benefits they claim that consumers will enjoy is that their vehicle will be able to be updated after the fact. They will, they will not have a vehicle with software that will eventually become obsolete. And. But one of the downsides of this I think is at some point a manufacturer is going to have to determine that they're not going to support that vehicle anymore, right?

[C]

Yeah, but you're, but they didn't say the quiet part out loud though. The quiet part is they heard money. Stellantis was estimating by the turn of the decade, $25 billion a year in software related support revenue. GM said the same thing. BMW tried to pull that stunt a few years back, you might recall, with heated seats.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

You spent all this money, you spent mid to high five figures for a BMW, you want everything that it came with.

[B]

Right.

[C]

BMW thought people would pay for seasonal availability of heated seats. And basically, well, to be polite, customers said no. And I think they use stronger terms than that.

[A]

I think the pushback too is paying for hardware that exists on your vehicle that you can't access.

[B]

Well, and I feel like they did that like they charged you for Apple CarPlay. It was there, but if you wanted to use it, you had to like pay a fee.

[A]

Well, there are a great number of Tesla Model S's with full self driving that never was fully Realized. And people paid big money up front. Oh, you got quiet.

[C]

Yeah. Here's the thing. And this, this kind of rolls in a whole nother conversation that's related. And I just did a, just did a segment on it called Right the Repair. If you are paying all this money to buy a vehicle, I mean, we all know, we've read the stories, 50,000 is average right now. And you and Jill, I mean we, between the three of us, we can't count how many vehicles that we have test driven in the last year. Way above that in cost.

[A]

Yeah, I've driven a lot of $60,000 crossovers. Yep.

[C]

Yeah. Ridiculous numbers. So here's the thing. If you're paying that kind of money, you should have the right to take it wherever you want to get it fixed. If you're a Tesla. And I just did this story because it's a big deal right now out here in Iowa, relative with John Deere being sued and the state legislature right in the middle of right to repair. But it's been going on since 2012 in Massachusetts. So that kind of leads into it too. Is, okay, fine, you're giving me all of this stuff. Some of it. Fine. Some of it. Do I really want it? I don't know. If you come to me and I'm driving an EV and you say you can double my range for twelve hundred dollars, yeah, sign me up. But I also heard the dark side where automakers are saying, okay, here's the deal. We're going to allow you to have all of this stuff, but you're going to have to deal with all the commercials. And oh, by the way, if you don't want the commercials, pay us 150amonth or 25amonth or whatever number.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Well, you don't make the commercial go away.

[B]

And I think you made a really good point where you talked about not being able to take your car wherever you want to go to get it repaired in a software defined vehicle. Like it's like taking a Macintosh to a PC dealer. Like, that's not going to work.

[A]

It is going to force independent repair shops to invest more money in stuff. They're going to have to get access to that software.

[C]

And not all of them are going to do that.

[A]

Nope. And that's a shame because independent repair shops are often a really nice alternative, cost wise.

[B]

Going back to the dealer if you don't like. So my mom had a Chevrolet for many years and she hated her Chevrolet dealership. They were not good. And she ended up taking her car to the Honda dealership to get repaired because they were actually nice. And so that in a software defined vehicle, doing something like that is no longer going to be possible or very difficult.

[C]

It really gets down to state legislators and the right to repair because I don't think that the American consumer. It would be different if these were 15 to $20,000 cars. You might get some pushback, but you go, yeah, but at 50, 60, 70, $80,000.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And I can't take it to my mechanic that I trust or I. Because maybe I'm a computer whiz and I know and I've spent the money, you know. Again, we told a story of a $900,000 combine. Guy changed a sensor that went out. All he needed was the code to reset it. John Deere said, no, we're two weeks out and it's going to cost you $230, man. The guy's in the middle of harvest. The guy's got 45 minutes to get the rest of that particular plot of land harvested before it rains. If it rains, the crops ruined and his costs go up significantly. The only saving grace he had, he had a 2004 in the garage. He was able to get out and finish it, but his $900,000 combine still sitting there.

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

So that's not going to work. But to give you a different example, I recently upgraded my computer. Oh, God. Six months ago. Didn't realize why it was running so slow. Had an independent guy come in here. He showed me in 15 seconds what was wrong. He was able to update it, fix it. Best $500 I ever spent. And it's a Dell. I've got a Dell. I love my Dell. But if I had to send this back to Dell and I, I'm on this thing, yeah. Eight to ten hours, six days a week. I couldn't afford to do that.

[A]

That's crazy. Ken, we're totally out of time. But tell us how we can read your Right to repair article. Always.

[C]

Well, the best way to find me is Tech Mobility Show. That will also tell you where I am on the radio across the country. We do the Tech Mobility Minute. Tech Mobility and Focus and the Tech Mobility Show. And we're from Massachusetts to California. You can find us almost anywhere.

[A]

Cool. We will link to that stuff. Ken, thank you so much for your time today.

[C]

Thank you for having me. As always. We need more time.

[B]

Always.

[A]

We will have you join us again, Tom, Jill, anytime.

[C]

Let me know. Be glad to be on again.

[A]

Thanks, Ken. That is Ken Chester of the Tech Mobility podcast. We're going to take a break, and when we come back.

[B]

Quiz time.

[A]

Quiz time.

[C]

Questions or comments?

[A]

Drop us a [e-mail] that's car stuffonsumerguide.com. Welcome back to the Car Stuff Podcast. And we're back. This is the consumer Guide Car Stuff Podcast. I'm Tom. She is Jill. We just chatted with Ken Chester, one of the only guys I know that still wears a hat.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not a baseball hat, but a nice. He's dapper.

[B]

Yes, he is.

[A]

The gentleman is dapper.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He wears nice hats.

[B]

He does.

[A]

All right, social media. You got social media.

[B]

I do. I do, in fact, have social media. Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter X, Twitter, BlueSky, Threads, Facebook, LinkedIn, all the things ilesiminello and YouTube, which I have started rebranding to Car du Jour. And that's the hashtag I use, Car du Jour. It was funny, speaking of Quebec, and I was talking about it, and I mentioned that my channel was Carte du Jour, and he was like, that's brilliant. And I'm like, you're the only one who gets it. But they speak French, so they get it. But, yeah, because I drive essentially a different car pretty much every day.

[A]

I don't know what happened, but this year, there's this huge community of car guys has moved to Blue Sky. If you're not there and you want to talk about cars, go there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And just find some. Follow me if you can, but go there and just find somebody who's talking about cars and you'll find the bigger group. Yeah, it's really fun.

[B]

You know, like Twitter used to be. I thoroughly enjoyed Twitter when it was just talking about cars.

[A]

I do a thing only on Blue sky, and I just call it. It's called Cheap Cars Looking Good. And I just find old ads for really cheap cars.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Datsun, B210A Vega, something like that. And people seem to love that. And then all these people have, like. My grandmother had one of those, which makes me feel old because I knew people who had them that were peers.

[B]

Yeah. I was gonna say they were. They were of your.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Age.

[A]

Yeah. But Blue sky, it seemed to slow down, and now it seems like it's back again.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm liking it. It can get a little political. You can avoid that, though.

[B]

Yeah, I'll have to. Anything can get political and you can avoid it. So I will. I love to log on and pay more attention To Blue Sky.

[A]

Yeah. It's fun.

[B]

I'm on occasionally. I'm just not. I'm on TikTok and Instagram every day.

[A]

Yeah. And X has died. Not much going on there anymore. Also, Steve and Johnny don't want me on X.

[B]

We have some dedicated followers on X.

[A]

We do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Pillboy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is a great follower.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He sent us. I feel terrible about this. He sent us a gift card for Spunky Dunkers and it never showed up. Yeah. I really appreciate that, but he listens. I don't know his real name, but we have a lot of conversations in the DMs. Good guy. All right, Are you ready?

[B]

I. Yes.

[A]

It's quiz time. This is the consumer guide Car stuff power quiz number 316. It's not really 316. You often complain. Oh, loudly.

[B]

Because I, you know, I'm. I'm a complainer.

[A]

You are?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I. I come up with quizzes that are too hard and too aimed at people my age.

[B]

Well, that's. That is true.

[A]

As if we are vastly different ages. They are kind of different. So I've got one here for you. Very Recent.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

2020.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Topic is 2020 cars. I'm gonna give you a car model and all you have to do is tell me if it was on sale in the US for the 2020 model year. I see you complaining.

[B]

I'm not complaining. It's just a heavy sigh. I'm. I'm going to eat my cinnamon blob now.

[A]

Heavy size. Our complaint.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Are you ready?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I'm just gonna give you a car model.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You told me if it was on sale in 2020 in the United States. In the United States.

[B]

But could it have been on sale someplace else?

[A]

These. One of them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The Ford Fusion.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yes, it was. That was it. It was 2006 to 2020.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I knew Ford did away with all of its cars. I couldn't remember exactly when.

[A]

You have no points.

[B]

I have no points. Your favorite phrase.

[A]

The Chevrolet Spark. Chevy sold two small cars at the same time. One was the Spark, very much an old school economy car. And the Sonic, which was a delight. You could get it with a small turbo with manual transmission. It was fun to drive, it was affordable and it was really solid. It was nicely built car. I missed this. I missed the Sonic. I don't miss the Spark.

[B]

Was the Sonic post Aveo. Was that like the evolution of Aveo?

[A]

I would. No, that would have been the. Oh, yes, it was. I think you're right. I think it was Korean. It was Daewoo Daywood built, and I think it was an evolution of that.

[B]

But you're asking me about the Spark.

[A]

The Spark. Was the Spark on sale in 2020?

[B]

I'm gonna say no.

[A]

It was. Yeah. 2013 through 20,000. Yeah. You're in a trouble now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Dodge Hornet. No, it was not. Yeah, that came online in 2023.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, I don't think that was out yet.

[A]

You have one point. I'm just gonna write that down here real quick. Jill,

[B]

this is me crunching in my donut one.

[A]

Hey, your donut wide.

[B]

Believe my donut blob.

[A]

Good thing you're in pastry marketing. The Toyota Venza, that's a. That is a model name that's had an interesting life.

[B]

So fun fact, my mother has a 2014 Toyota Venza and I feel like that was the last model year before it came back as the hybrid. But when did it come back as the hybrid?

[A]

I want to say that Ed Piotrowski, who has been on the show several times, owned a Venza. Could be. Or talked about owning a Venza.

[B]

My friend Roman had a Venza and I was like, oh, you're twinning with my mom. That's adorable. Oh, let me think. Okay. So

[A]

Venza was a mid sized crossover. It was replaced by a compact crossover. The second version of that I really liked. It was very Lexus, like, for Toyota money.

[B]

It really was. And I'm trying to, like. So I'm trying to place it in my brain because I drove it at the Texas Auto Riders association spring roundup

[A]

and they gave me a trophy.

[B]

I think that was. They did. They gave both of us a trophy.

[A]

I don't care about your trophy.

[B]

Hey, I submitted for the trophy. You should care about my trophy because we won for, I think second place for podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But I think that was 2021, so I'm gonna say no.

[A]

Wow, you nailed this. The first generation Venza, the really gangly looking thing that your mom owns. 2009 through 2015. It returned for 2021 and lasted through 2024. And that vehicle was. You know what? That was the first, I believe, all hybrid Toyota.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was hybrid only. And that was the first Toyota like that. That Toyota has lots of all hybrid vehicles. The Sienna, The Camry, the RAV4, I

[B]

think is the Sequoia. All hybrid.

[A]

Oh, no. Oh, the Sequoia might be. I was thinking of the Tundra. Yeah, it might be. All righty. You have two points.

[B]

All right, bringing it back.

[A]

Bringing it back to. All right, you can pull this off now. Oh, we did Venza. Volkswagen Passat.

[B]

Oh, of course. You had to do that. Well, because they came out with the Ardean, which I believe replaced the Passat.

[A]

Can't help you.

[B]

But when did that come out?

[A]

The Ardean was a really interesting vehicle. It was kind of an Audi light, but it was more luxurious than other Volkswagens. But not quite Audi like, but also way cheaper than an Audi. I liked it. I wanted to call it a luxury vehicle. Damon wouldn't let me. Hey, Damon.

[B]

You're assuming Damon's listening.

[A]

We're trying to have lunch, and he's just busy. He [e-mail] now, and they. They keep him hopping.

[B]

He's. He's busy. I'm giving air quotes. He just doesn't want to have lunch with you.

[A]

Who does?

[B]

I actually do owe you lunch.

[A]

You do?

[B]

I do.

[A]

My mom has lunch with me.

[B]

Well, your mom has lunch with you. Okay.

[A]

She has to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She's your mom.

[B]

She does. She has to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You probably take her out to lunch, so she has no choice.

[A]

Volkswagen Passat. Let me try to get this back on the rails.

[B]

Back on the rails.

[A]

Was there a Volkswagen Passat in 2020? That could be a very good vehicle, depending how it was equipped.

[B]

Mm. I'm like. I'm feeling my phone vibrating. I wonder if that's somebody telling me the answer. I'm not looking. I am not looking.

[A]

No. Your pregnancy test came back.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was positive? Negative.

[A]

I respect your privacy.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna say no.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. After a very long run. It died in 2022. All right, you have still two points. You need the bonus question. Your favorite topic. For bonus questions, I went again to Franchise opportunities dot com. I have four franchise opportunities right here, recommended by Franchise Opportunities opportunities dot com. You have to tell me which one's the fake.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

All right, this is me still punching

[B]

on my cinnamon donut.

[A]

All right, Are you ready? Yeah. These are things you can do well, by the way, for under 30 grand.

[B]

Under 30 grand. Okay, that. That's a deal.

[A]

If you ever read these things, it's like the franchise fees 30 grand, and then you have to have, like, $6 trillion in savings so you can float the business until it dies. Ready? Mosquito squad.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Urban wax with two X's. Mr. Sparky Electric or Schnitzel Magic Bavarian Bistro. I'm laughing because producer Randy's like, I know.

[B]

I See that out of the corner of my eye.

[A]

I'll read them again

[B]

as you enter into a coughing fit because you're cracking yourself up.

[A]

Hopefully it's pneumonia. Mosquito Squad. Urban wax with two X's. Mr. Sparky Electric. That almost sounds like a brothel. Mr. Sparky.

[C]

No.

[A]

Schnitzel Magic. Bavarian Bistro.

[B]

My brain did not go there. It did not.

[A]

Mine did.

[B]

Clearly. Clearly it did.

[A]

Is Mr. Sparky electric okay? Yeah.

[B]

Therefore, it doesn't sound like a brothel. Okay. So I think it's gonna be. I think it's gonna be one of the last two. You've spent a lot of attention. Like, I feel like I've seen Mosquito Squad somewhere. Oh, man. I feel like I've seen Mosquito Squad somewhere. So I'm gonna buy that as being real.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I don't remember what the second one

[A]

was, but Urban Wax with two X's.

[B]

I. I could totally see that being real.

[A]

All right, so Mr. Sparky or Schnitzel Magic.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's got to be Snitchel Magic. Oh, man.

[A]

My apologies. Everyone's still listening. Schnitzel Magic. Bavarian Bistro is the fake.

[B]

Okay, I got it.

[A]

You.

[B]

By the skin of my teeth.

[A]

There you go. I signed this for you. It is covered with germs, I think.

[B]

I'm not touching her.

[A]

All right, I'll put that over here.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. I think. Yeah, you need to throw that away yourself. You're not even gonna make the cleaning service put that in the trash.

[A]

No. You know, we talked about. Just to get us back on something, like a topic, but we talked a little bit about the Subaru effect. Right. That's enough off road for most people, but one of the funny things about that is they added wilderness, and that's what I drove here in Forester. Wilderness.

[B]

Forester. Okay. I thought out of the corner of my eye, I thought maybe it was an Outback, but Forester, I was supposed

[A]

to get the Outback hybrid. And I don't know what happened, but I didn't get that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I still want to drive that. And we should talk a little bit about that. Maybe we have, but Subaru has gone hybrid now in versions of the Forester and the Crosstrek. And that off on that hybrid system comes by way of Toyota. Now, unlike Mazda, they're actually using their own engines because Subaru engines are unique. They're flat fours, pancake fours, horizontally opposed fours, whatever you want to call them. They're weird boxers. Boxers, right. The obvious name that I didn't use. But the interesting thing is you have all four cylinders running horizontal to the ground, which is interesting for a bunch of reasons. It tends to make stop start systems not good. Like the 2.2 liter stop. Sir is obnoxious in the Crosstrek. But on the other hand, they make this wonderful gravely noise and they develop toy torque at a really low speed. So even though there's not a lot of horsepower there, they feel quick around town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a good amount of early torque for off road stuff if you do it. But yeah, Subaru, what an interesting brand. And then we've complained. I have complained that the new Outback, it doesn't look like a wagon anymore. Yeah, but you drove that.

[B]

I did. I liked it.

[A]

What are you working on?

[B]

You know, I actually. So it's funny, I had a story that posted in December and I didn't realize it until yesterday that it posted and I did a story that talked about the rebel rally and the journey with my dad as he fought Lewy body dementia and kind of wove the two of those together and how.

[A]

Oh, you shared this on Facebook.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. One situation kind of helped me get through the other and so it was something I felt compelled to write. And Girls Guide to Cars posted it and I didn't realize they published it in December. And so I'm a little bit behind in promoting it. But it was very heartfelt and very well.

[A]

We will link to that.

[B]

Yeah. So I would say if you're looking for something to read, it's on Facebook and you can also find it on LinkedIn.

[A]

Oh, man, I'm glad the show is over all of a sudden.

[B]

Now you're just gonna cough and I need to get out of the room with you because you're gonna, like, get me sick again.

[A]

If you're listening live, I joined the John Hansen show on WGN radio today at 6:45 Chicago time.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

No one else is gonna hear this in time.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

All right. All right. Good show. Thank you to Ken Chester.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of the Tech Mobility podcast. Thank you, producer Randy. Thank you, Jill. Let's talk more about cars again next week. Next week. Remember to check us [e-mail] the car

[C]

stuff podcast is produced by J Turn Media.

[B]

To advertise on the show, please drop

[A]

us a line at [e-mail].

[C]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow.

[A]

Thank you for listening.