Stellantis "Core" Brands, Forester Wilderness, Used EV Prices

Summary

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Car Stuff Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: Stellantis "Core" Brands, Forester Wilderness, Used EV Prices
Hosts: Tom Appel, Jill Ciminillo (absent), Guest: Paul Harold (Sons of Speed), Special Guest: Carl Brower (IC Cars)
Date: May 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Tom Appel and guest co-host Paul Harold (Sons of Speed) dive into the shifting automotive landscape. Key topics include Stellantis' "core brands" announcement and the future of Chrysler, the nostalgia and present fate of Mitsubishi, a lively review of the Subaru Forester Wilderness, market dynamics around used electric vehicles (EVs) and Tesla's resilience, and a hands-on Ferrari Roma Spider drive impression. Industry data expert Carl Brower joins to unravel used EV pricing and current trends. Throughout, the hosts keep their signature blend of deep expertise, candid opinions, historical perspective, and friendly banter.

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Main Segments & Timestamps

• [01:53] Show Kickoff, Introducing Paul Harold
• [03:52] About Sons of Speed & Car Review Philosophies
• [05:03] Stellantis "Core Brands" Reshuffling
• [11:00] Mitsubishi Memories & Present State
• [14:03] Rivian Factory, Volkswagen Investment, & Industry Hurdles
• [16:13] Subaru Forester Wilderness Review
• [24:29] Used EV Market Deep Dive with Carl Brower
• [43:41] Quiz Segment: Car Sales History & Trivia
• [52:51] Test Drive Impressions: Ferrari Roma Spider

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Segment Highlights

1. Sons of Speed & Car Enthusiasm

• [03:52]
  • Paul describes Sons of Speed: "Our focus is on: does this car have a soul? Is it fun to drive? Does it make you feel good while you drive it?"
  • Tom: "See, I enjoy driving soulless vehicles. So we complement each other well."
  • They reminisce about memorable cars—good and bad—including the peculiar VW VR6 engine and badge-engineered Volvos.

---

2. Stellantis "Core Brands" Shakeup

• [05:03–10:00]
  • Stellantis, born from the Fiat-Chrysler and PSA Group merger, faces "too many brands".
  • New CEO Antonio Filosa identifies four "core" brands: Jeep, Ram, Peugeot, Fiat. Notably, Chrysler is absent.

    "We've been waiting as enthusiasts and observers for something to come of the American brands, specifically Chrysler and Dodge. Chrysler has one product right now." – Tom [05:47]

    • American icons like Dodge and Chrysler are "on the bubble."
    • Speculation: Will Chrysler or Dodge models be replaced by badge-engineered Peugeots? Will Chrysler be trimmed?
    • "It's really weird to trim Chrysler... If you're an American, that was it." – Tom [09:16]
    • The discussion underscores the emotional and historical weight behind American auto brands, and the sharp impacts of corporate strategy.

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3. Car Culture & Coping with Change (Mitsubishi, Rivian, Tesla)

• [11:00–15:42]
  • Mitsubishi nostalgia: From the glory of Diamond Star Motors and turbocharged models to today's sparse lineup and dealer scarcity.
  • Rivian's expansion in Illinois (on the former Mitsubishi factory), major Volkswagen investments, but ongoing financial uncertainty.

    "And then the quarterly results come out and they lost two or three billion dollars. Like, where did that money go?" – Tom [14:48]

  • Tesla's evolution: Tom observes, "Elon Musk doesn't care about cars anymore," [15:55] hinting at broader strategic distractions.

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4. Subaru Forester Wilderness Review – CVTs, Character, and Practicality

• [16:13–21:01]
  • Tom reviews the newly-redesigned Subaru Forester Wilderness edition.
  • Paul calls out Tom’s favorable mention of a CVT:

    "You are not allowed to ever say this in the same sentence: A car with a CVT that's fun to drive." – Paul [16:38]

  • They debate the merits (or lack thereof) of continuously variable transmissions (CVTs), but agree Subaru’s is among the best.
  • Wilderness highlights: Excellent outward visibility, roominess, towing capacity (3,500 lbs vs. 1,500 lbs standard), engaging to drive despite its quirks.
  • "This thing is... it feels alive. It's fun to drive. It sprints from a light." – Tom [18:36]
  • Caveats: Fuel economy (~23 MPG), somewhat high price point ($42K as tested), but a characterful and practical choice.

---

5. Interview: Carl Brower on Used EV Prices & Tesla's Resilience

• [24:29–40:45]

The Used EV Marketplace:

• Post-September, as incentives faded, used EV demand "softened"—but volatile gas prices complicated the story.
• Hybrids outpace EVs in growth: "Hybrids went up by 41.8%, almost three times the rate EVs went up." – Carl [28:15]
• Tesla’s unique market: Despite overall used EV price drops, used Teslas buck the trend.

  "Year over year price change of a Tesla EV: 0.1%. We're going to call that flat. And the non Tesla EVs? Down 10.3%." – Carl [30:37]

  • The Tesla brand is nearly synonymous with EVs to most shoppers; other makers struggle with recognition.
  • Despite Elon Musk’s controversial public persona, buyers are sticking with Tesla.

    "People who wanted a Tesla forever still bought one... people who would never buy a Tesla didn't buy one..." – Carl [32:18]

• Discussion of Toyota’s prudent, patient approach to EVs vs. more aggressive (and riskier) strategies from other OEMs.
  • "You can bet against Toyota if you want to. Everyone who's done that in the past has lost..." – Carl [37:10]
  • The market remains unpredictable; shareholder pressures shape automaker decisions too quickly.

---

6. Car Sales & Illinois Quiz

• [43:41–52:40]
  • Entertaining quiz on historical best-selling cars and Illinois state trivia.
  • Fun fact: Illinois’ top export is machinery.
  • Notable quiz moment:

    "You went six for six. Jill, are you listening? It can be done." – Tom [52:41]

---

7. Test Drive: Ferrari Roma Spider

• [52:51–59:43]
  • Paul fulfills a dream driving Ferrari's Roma Spider:
    • "Once you drive this car, you will never appreciate any other car again."
    • It’s beautiful, a real GT, not an aggressive track machine but "still fast as hell."
    • Expert praise for brakes, handling, transmission:

      "It is lightning... you put your finger on the paddles... and it's like shifting already. It's just unbelievable." – Paul [58:03]

    • Notable detail: Ergonomics, like armrests placed for unimpeded steering.
    • Downsides: ~400k price when optioned; “It uses a lot [of gas]... I’m driving it like I stole it, but... it’s so much fun.” [59:30]
  • Tom: "I'm glad you had that opportunity."

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Stellantis’s brand strategy:

  "It's the same engine, this Hurricane engine... lighter, more efficient, powerful, great engine than the Hemi engine. But people didn't want any part of it." – Tom [06:44] "What's the only thing wrong with it? It's not a V8 Hemi." – Paul [06:53]

• On CVTs:

  "It's a continuous variable transmission, so it's got one bungee cord gear... sounds like a big rubber band under your hood... absolutely horrible. Dude, don't sugarcoat." – Paul [16:48]

• On Tesla’s market clout:

  "For every EV that someone bought, three people were buying a hybrid." – Carl [28:15]
  "Tesla is EV. Like, when you think of Tesla, that's it." – Paul [31:02]

• On driving Ferrari Roma Spider:

  "It takes some of that [modern design], but it also brings back some classic lines... it's just pretty." – Tom [54:01] "It is lightning. I mean it is so fast. It's telepathic." – Paul [58:03]

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Takeaways & Tone

• Tone: Informal, informed, and full of warmth and irreverence ("soulful cars", "dead brands", "CVT bungee cords", etc.)
• The U.S. and global auto markets are in major transition, with branding, consumer habits, and tech all shifting rapidly.
• Stellantis’ core-brand focus could spell the end for Chrysler and other familiar names.
• Used EV and hybrid markets are diverging; Tesla remains in its own category.
• EV adoption in the U.S. is still hampered by practical realities and brand loyalty.
• Old car nostalgia runs deep for both hosts and listeners.
• Test-driving “dream cars” like the Ferrari remains as thrilling—and humbling—as ever.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers auto enthusiasts a rich blend of nostalgia, market insights, and hands-on impressions, with clear opinions, historical context, and humor. Whether you’re shopping for a new ride, following industry news, or fantasizing about Ferraris, it’s essential listening.

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For more reviews and show notes, visit consumerguide.com and follow the hosts on social.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host Intro]

Whether you drive a car, need a car, or just occasionally bum a ride with friends, you've come to the right place. Join Jill and Tom as they break down everything that's going on in the auto world. New car reviews, shopping tips, driving green electric cars, classic cars, and plenty of great guests. This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff Podcast.

[Tom Appel]

All right, this is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff Podcast. I'm Tom. Thank you for joining us today. When you have a moment, do me a solid, do me a favor, check us [e-mail] all sorts of cool stuff there. You can listen to the podcast right there on our homepage. You can see my latest reviews. And I just wrote, actually, I didn't, I didn't put my name on it because I didn't put the love into this that it deserved. But it's an interesting story about the Volkswagen VR6, and we'll talk about that a little later in the show if we have a chance. But the strangest engine to come out of the last 30 or 40 years. All right, in studio, Paul Harold of the Sons of Speed. Paul, how are You?

[Paul Harold]

I'm doing well, Tom, thank you.

[Tom Appel]

Do you remember the VR6?

[Paul Harold]

Yes, I do.

[Tom Appel]

Crazy engine.

[Paul Harold]

Yes. And it kind of powerful too.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. It got mainstreamed later in Volkswagen's development, but early on, yeah, it was a V6 in name only. It was the narrowest angle V6 ever and it allowed Volkswagen to stuff V6 engines into the Golf, the Jetta, into little places and it had the most delightful characteristics.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, I had a Eagle Talon TSI all wheel drive at the time and I'll never forget getting spanked by a Volkswagen sraco with a VR6.

[Tom Appel]

My wife had a 1995 Jetta GLX which I like to call my car. But it had the VR 6, 5 speed, manual, eagle gas. It was a crazy car.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So quick. And the thing about the VR6, tiny little six cylinder engine in the place of A4. It developed good torque. Like it liked to rev.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

But it would rip away from a stoplight too.

[Paul Harold]

It was. It was quick.

[Tom Appel]

Cool thing. Jill is out today. Jill is taking place in the Trinity Road Rally. I don't know how. Well, this is the initial Trinity Rod Road Rally. I don't know how well this is being covered, but you can check it [e-mail] and that is tri night t r I n I t e rally.com so check that out. If you want to follow that. We will link from our show notes for people who don't know. Tell us about the Sons of Speed.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. We are an automotive review company. We produce videos and written car reviews and you can find them on YouTube under. We are motor driven.com and our focus is not so much like how the H Vac works or navigation controls and stuff. Our focus is on does this car have a soul? Is it fun to drive? Does it. Does it make you feel good while you drive it?

[Tom Appel]

See, I enjoy driving soulless vehicles. So we complement each other well.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

There was a Volvo I drove very early in my tenure at Consumer Guide. It was, I think it was called the V40, the S40. And it was not a Volvo heritage. It was actually Mitsubishi. Okay. Like the worst thing I ever drove, like, professionally.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

It was just a terrible car. It wasn't interesting. It wasn't built by Volvo. It was built by something called Ned Carr in the Netherlands. They sold it here to hit a price point, but it did not do their legacy well.

[Paul Harold]

So it had no like real Volvo components in it?

[Tom Appel]

No, no. And subsequent to that there would be an S40 with Volvo bits.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Delightful.

[Paul Harold]

There's. They had that Going for a long time, actually.

[Tom Appel]

Delightful guard, but yeah, for a while they're not so good. So, interesting piece of news out of. I was going to say Detroit, but that's not correct. Out of Auto World. And that said Antonio Filoso, the new CEO of Stellantis has picked his four core brands.

[Paul Harold]

Yes. Tom, tell me more about this.

[Tom Appel]

So Stellantis is a brand new company, relatively by automotive standards.

[Paul Harold]

Yes. Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Like it came together in 2022.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

It's pretty darn new. But it was the merger of Fiat Chrysler.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

A company that already had too many brands.

[Paul Harold]

Yes. Way too many with.

[Tom Appel]

With Peugeot, Citroen, psa.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

A company with too many brands. The net effect was a really big company with too many brands.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And we've been waiting as enthusiasts and observers for something to come of the American brands, specifically Chrysler and Dodge. Chrysler has one product right now.

[Paul Harold]

I know, the Pacifica. That's it.

[Tom Appel]

That's it. And Dodge has two products right now.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

The. The Durango, which is a nice truck.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. And the Charger.

[Tom Appel]

And the Charger, which is not selling very well for them right now. Now they've. They went from all electric with that vehicle to gasoline powered. Have you driven the gas version?

[Paul Harold]

No, I have not. I've driven the all electric. I saw the gas one. It's got the inline six.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. The hurricane.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, inline six. And then. And we're all waiting for the V8,

[Tom Appel]

which no one has confirmed.

[Paul Harold]

No one has confirmed. But I know it's coming.

[Tom Appel]

It has to be coming.

[Paul Harold]

It has to be coming.

[Tom Appel]

And here's part of the reason it has to be coming. Ram sales, the big Ram 1500 pickup truck sales tanked when they went six cylinder only.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

And it's the same engine, this Hurricane engine, which by the way, lighter, more efficient, powerful, great engine than the Hemi engine. But people didn't want any part of it.

[Paul Harold]

You know, what's the only thing wrong with it? It's not a V8 Hemi.

[Tom Appel]

It's not a V8 Hemi. And when they reintroduced the V8 Hemi to the Ram at extra cost.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

For less power.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Sales took off.

[Paul Harold]

Took off again. So they clearly need that all perception

[Tom Appel]

and part of that Ram did to themselves. They built their brand around Hemi, they built their brand around V8s and.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And Hellcats.

[Paul Harold]

And overnight they just like pulled the rug out from underneath everybody.

[Tom Appel]

And they did. And. And if you're a schmuck like me, you believe that, that people were going to embrace the technology and Go. All right.

[Paul Harold]

No way.

[Tom Appel]

That did. And that's why I'm not in marketing

[Paul Harold]

and that's why we're not all driving EVs. Right?

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, it is.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So, yeah, because EVs make sense and no one wants them. That's not true. Lots of people want them, but not as many people as people thought might.

[Paul Harold]

Correct.

[Tom Appel]

So anyway, we've got this big company, Stellantis.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

14 or 17 brands, depending on how you count them. I'm just going to read them real quick.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Abarth, Alpha, Alpha, Romeo, Chrysler, Citron, Dodge, ds, Fiat, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opal, Peugeot, Ram, Ram, Commercial Vauxhall, Fiat Professional. I feel like I missed something.

[Paul Harold]

I never heard of ds.

[Tom Appel]

DS is a luxury brand, mostly available in France.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, okay.

[Tom Appel]

And I. They may only sell one or two models at any given time.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

But yeah, I actually, literally, I did before Stellantis, I had never heard of ds.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Very low volume. So obviously they've got to get rid of these. The four core brands now moving forward. Forward Are Jeep, Ram, Peugeot and Fiat. And that's. That's a lot of coverage. Right. You've got the two first two brands get to the U.S. so no Chrysler. I'm sorry, did I not say Chrysler? Oh, Chrysler's not one of the core brands.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, okay.

[Tom Appel]

Okay.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, gotcha.

[Tom Appel]

Peugeot gets you Europe and Fiat gets you a lot of emerging markets.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Also Europe.

[Paul Harold]

I mean, so this. Does this mean that we might see like a Chrysler product that's actually made by Push Peugeot?

[Tom Appel]

Is that. Yes.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I think that's what this means. Unless they kill. And we're waiting for more announcement and apparently we're going to hear more about this this month, so.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

We'll see where this goes. I think they might be preparing us to finally start trimming some brands.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And it's really weird to trim Chrysler if they were to do that because that was the company.

[Paul Harold]

That was the company.

[Tom Appel]

If you're an American, that was it.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

You know, and they sold these big, beautiful big cars and it was Imperials and. And it's weird to see that go.

[Paul Harold]

The 300 was around forever too.

[Tom Appel]

So I didn't realize and I don't know that this sold well. There was a 300 variant in the early 70s.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

It's really cool looking. It's freaking huge.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Because it's based on their big car architecture, but it was really elegantly blacked out. And this is a cool car. But the 300. Yeah. And then there's the later 300. The one you're talking about. Maybe the LX.

[Carl Brower]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Which maybe they should not have killed. If they keep Chrysler, they should probably do a sedan version of the Charger for Chrysler.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And you know what they might get is some livery business too.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

A lot of the big back seat.

[Paul Harold]

Yep. Big vaccine. A lot of the airport shuffle shuttles and stuff. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. So you got that going on. Funny story here. It comes up every time gas gets expensive. I always forget about it. Are you familiar with off road diesel?

[Paul Harold]

Yes, I, I, at least I'm thinking it's that. The farmer version. It's like colored. A different color.

[Tom Appel]

Yep. It's agricultural diesel that is not subject to federal highway taxes.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

So. So, so if you like. I think it's red or something.

[Tom Appel]

Yep.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. It's dyed red, so.

[Tom Appel]

Oh. Currently it's dyed blue.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, blue. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

But it's funny because I watch a video, I'm like, that's red.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So maybe I got some, I got

[Paul Harold]

this story wrong, but I guess technically if they see you put it in your car, you're in big trouble.

[Tom Appel]

That's a federal crime.

[Paul Harold]

Don't do that.

[Tom Appel]

And if you're a retailer, God forbid, allowing that or even encouraging that.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

You're going to jail.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Don't do that. You know what? I drove in here today in. For the first time in years.

[Paul Harold]

You got me, Tom. What did you drive in a Mitsubishi. Oh, really?

[Tom Appel]

I have not driven a Mitsubishi in years.

[Paul Harold]

I think they make, what, two models?

[Tom Appel]

Basically. But three.

[Paul Harold]

Three, okay.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. They have two subcompacts, one compact. The compact is the Outlander. Then there's the Outlander Sport and the Eclipse Cross.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And a lot of Mitsubishi loyalists are really upset about the use of Eclipse.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

To describe each other.

[Paul Harold]

That was back in my day.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

Because the Eagle Talon that I had was the Eagle version of the Mitsubishi Eclipse.

[Tom Appel]

And also the Plymouth Laser remind people about Diamond Star and those cars.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. So they were built in Normal, Illinois. It was a collaboration of Chrysler and Mitsubishi and they. That was, it was a fantastic car, actually. Oh, yeah, it was great. It had a lot of power. The turbo versions were 200 horsepower, near just, just under 200 horsepower. And then when they came out with all wheel drive, was one of the first compact sport sports cars that had all wheel drive.

[Tom Appel]

And they were crazy.

[Paul Harold]

It was a great all wheel drive. You could. I could. It was a manual only on the turbo. So you could rev that thing to 5,000 RPMs, dump the clutch, and you

[Tom Appel]

were off that was peak Mitsubishi.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And there was a version of the Gallant that shared a lot of that drivetrain. You could get a turbo, all wheel drive. Galant was a manual.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

For a while. And that's what I think how we remember Mitsubishi. And they kept simplifying their lineup and then the Eclipse just became a version of the Galant with. It was a coup.

[Paul Harold]

There was such great cars and to see them just go away like that. It's just a shame.

[Tom Appel]

Big, huge V6 in the later versions.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Because then they made the Dodge Stealth for Dodge which was the 3000 GT.

[Tom Appel]

Mitsubishi forgot about that because that's good stuff.

[Paul Harold]

Stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

I knew, I knew someone who had the, the Stealth.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. My father had one. In fact he still has it.

[Tom Appel]

He didn't have the Stealth turbo. I think the Stealth could be had. The Dodge could be had with a 2 valve V6 30. What is it?

[Paul Harold]

There was the 24 valve V6, 32 valve V6, Twin Turbo and then there was this standard V6.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

Without the twin turbo.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. That's what my buddy had. It was still a really great car. Good looking.

[Paul Harold]

Did I say 32. Five would be 24, 24. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

That's, that's. And we would be so casual in discussing this, but it's really four valve per cylinder. That's what we're getting at.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So. But it's, it's good to drive this car. I drove it exactly one mile. 1.1 miles. So far. So far so good.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I think the problem with this car just superficially there's not that many dealers. So if there's anyone here listening out in the plains states in the southwest. I don't know what your access to a Mitsubishi dealer.

[Paul Harold]

Oh yeah. That can be a problem, especially for servicing.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. Around here there's lots of them.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. We're in Chicago. I was just going to mention something I forgot.

[Carvana Announcer]

Oh.

[Carl Brower]

Oh.

[Tom Appel]

The Mitsubishi factory in Normal, Illinois is now the Rivian factory.

[Paul Harold]

Yes, yes.

[Tom Appel]

So they're cranking those out. Rivian is in the process are getting ready to start selling compact. Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

The smaller versions which, which will look really good.

[Tom Appel]

It looks so good.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

That's the, the R2.

[Paul Harold]

Yep.

[Tom Appel]

And there's the R3 coming. That looks delightful.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. One of those cute mobiles.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, yeah. And if it's. If it is as good off road as it looks.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Holy cow. That's cool.

[Paul Harold]

Hopefully turn them around because they've been kind of.

[Tom Appel]

When I got all excited on this Show. I got all excited when Volkswagen started handing them buckets of cash.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And by buckets, I mean billions, billion dollar buckets of cash. And you're like, okay, they're good.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

This is a lot of money. This will get them through launching their smaller vehicle. And then the quarterly results come out and they lost two or three billion dollars. Like, where did some money go?

[Paul Harold]

Exactly. Yes. Like, I don't know, some forensic accounting.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. They are building another factory.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Which at this point feels optimistic because, yeah, sales aren't going.

[Paul Harold]

I, you know, don't try to be everything overnight. Just take it step by step.

[Tom Appel]

The thing about that was Elon Musk got away with it.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

He just always distracted people with a new project. And while they were distracted, he actually kind of did fix the stuff we weren't supposed to look at.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Which is why there is a Tesla now.

[Paul Harold]

Smoke and mirrors. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

You know what? Maybe after the break, you. You drove a really cool test car. And I want to talk about that. But after the quiz, I did want to talk about listening to the Tesla earnings call.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Something I've never done before.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And I cheated. I listened to someone else's podcast, Bodhi Grimm's Kilowatt podcast, and he did an analysis of the call.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

But I have one crazy takeaway.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And that said, Elon Musk doesn't care about cars anymore.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, that was obvious a long time ago.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. Like he really just doesn't care.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

He's got all these other things he's working on. So. Already I just drove. I just drove the Subaru Wilderness.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Now, for people who aren't keeping up with the. The Forester. The Forester was redesigned last year, but the Wilderness version wasn't. We designed it till this year, which

[Paul Harold]

is a little odd.

[Tom Appel]

It is odd. That's something Volkswagen used to do.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Just to mess with journalists heads. But my review is up now. I haven't given it a second run through. So live with the typos. I'll fix them.

[Paul Harold]

But I do have one beef with your review, though.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, do you?

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Okay.

[Paul Harold]

You are not allowed to ever say this in the same sentence.

[Tom Appel]

Okay.

[Paul Harold]

A car with a cvt that's fun to drive.

[Tom Appel]

Okay. Tell us what a CVT is real quick.

[Paul Harold]

It's a continuous variable transmission, so it's got one bungee cord gear. And it sounds like. It sounds like a big rubber band under your hood and it's whiny and it's. It's absolutely horrible. Dude, don't sugarcoat For a car person, it is the. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

[Tom Appel]

I accept everything you say as an enthusiast, however, Subaru does the CVT very well.

[Carl Brower]

For.

[Tom Appel]

For cvt.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah, okay. Of course I'm exactly.

[Tom Appel]

No, no, no. But you're right. The CVT is not as responsive to throttle inputs and not as fun to drive as a stepped gear.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Automatic or God forbid, a manual. Yes, a proper manual. But that said, the powers here is pretty good. But the point I want to make about this car is the Wilderness is. Is a trim level that brings you more off road capability.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Or more correctly, the look and feel of more off road capability.

[Paul Harold]

And also I was kind of surprised where the standard is only towing is 1500, but the wilderness is 3, 500. That's like. That's a huge difference.

[Tom Appel]

Confirm that number. Yeah, that's huge.

[Paul Harold]

That's huge.

[Tom Appel]

And I think part of that comes from revisions too. I don't know if it's the transmission or the gear, like the final.

[Paul Harold]

Some software or something. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

But they are getting more. Getting more gear. You're getting what we used to. It was a higher or numerically lower gear out the back, basically. Better acceleration, worse gas mileage.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And this feels nice and grunty offline, but I was just sort of driving this car and there's a lot to poke it poke at here. Right. It's a little bit loud. I don't know if it has the nicest interior in the world. You feel the road like these are all things that enthusiasts might like, but I don't know if a regular shopper would. But really what's interesting about this is, is that they all kind of work together and give this car character.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And character is usually an excuse for a bunch of flaws, but here they really come together nicely. This thing is. It feels alive. It's fun to drive. It sprints from a light.

[Paul Harold]

You said it again.

[Tom Appel]

I did, I did, I know I did. But it's a good cvt.

[Paul Harold]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Tom Appel]

Honda's doing it too. Honda's getting away with the good CVT's all right. All like. China sells millions of cars with CVT's. But yes, to your point, and I make this point all the time. If you are young and don't know better.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Don't even think about what we're talking about right now. But if you have gone from a regular automatic transmission to this car, take it for a long test drive and see if it's okay with you.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Because it may not be it's. There are people who can't make the transition and part of what happens there is that you're looking for that sound. Right. And you feel the engine rev. You hear the engine rev. And you want a shift.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

And there ain't no shift.

[Paul Harold]

You're also waiting for the feel, the feel through the cabin of that little, you know, where the first becomes second, second becomes third and so on. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And you don't get that.

[Paul Harold]

You don't get that.

[Tom Appel]

And if you play with the paddle shifters in some of those cars, which is weird that CVT's have them.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

There are fake ratios. Fake.

[Paul Harold]

They're fake ratios.

[Tom Appel]

I think Audi might have been the first company to do that. But anyway, it's just I was very happy to drive this car and there's a couple of things about it that I really like that I want to get to real quick. One, outward visibility, absolutely excellent. Probably the best in the class. Really roomy inside. The seats are more upright and theater like.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

So even if you're a little kid, you can see out the window and

[Paul Harold]

enjoy glass and all around you. That's makes the visibility so good.

[Tom Appel]

It does have that nice feel off the line. Just. It's a little bit quicker. Fuel economy is not great. I got about 23 miles per gallon, which is probably bottom of the class.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. That is actually for 180 horsepower. That's. That's not good, actually.

[Tom Appel]

No. So the vehicle I drove was 42 grand. A little high for this class. For this vehicle. It's the penultimate trim level. But you can do one less but drive the wilderness because I thought it was pretty cool. Cool. If I was going to buy one of these and my wife and I keep. I'm going to say this for the next five years. My wife and I are looking for a car.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. For the next five years. Yes.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Nothing may ever come of this, especially because she works from home a lot.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

She's a 10 year old Subaru Crosstrek with 60m, 60,000 miles on it.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

That has never given us a minute of trouble.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, no. Those are great cars.

[Tom Appel]

Why would we buy another car? Except that she's bored.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Oh. All right. My full review is online now. You can check us out our show notes, check us out at. On Facebook, the car stuff podcast and follow us there and you can keep track of stuff while our show notes will be posted there. We're going to take a break. When we come back, we talk to Carl Brower. He's the executive analyst at IC Cars about electric vehicle Used electric vehicle sales.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, boy.

[Tom Appel]

Sounds good.

[Podcast Host Intro]

Questions or comments? Drop us a line@car stuffsumerguide.com that's [e-mail]

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[Carvana Customer]

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[Carl Brower]

Well, that's cool.

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Wow.

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[Podcast Host Intro]

Welcome back to the Car Stuff podcast.

[Tom Appel]

And we're back. This is the Consumer Guide Car Stuff podcast podcast. I'm Tom, publisher of Consumer Guide Automotive. In the co pilot seat today, Paul Harold of the Sons of Speed. Nice enough to make some time for us. How are you, Paul?

[Paul Harold]

I'm doing well, Tom, thank you.

[Tom Appel]

We're in a very weird place these days, right? In September, the EV incentives disappeared.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Sort of softening demand for EVs.

[Paul Harold]

Softening is a good word for it. Yes.

[Tom Appel]

And then all of a sudden something crazy happened to the price of gas.

[Paul Harold]

Tell me more about this, Tom. What happened? Oh, and by the way, you're not on social media, are you?

[Tom Appel]

I am not, but I. I am Car Guy. Thank you. Let me just work that in now. I am Car Guy Tom on Twitter x and on Blue Sky. Blue Sky. Very fun. Having good conversations.

[Carvana Customer (possibly same as J)]

Good.

[Tom Appel]

So we'll check that out on the phone with us. Speaking of car prices. Yes, Carl Prower, he is the executive [e-mail] Carl, how are you today?

[Carl Brower]

Hey guys, I'm doing well and enjoying the opportunity to speak with you. Fun topic. Can, can't ever get bored talking about cars, especially these days.

[Tom Appel]

No you can't. And the world is so strange. And car prices are up. Electric vehicle incentives are down. But you've got a bunch of news there. But real quick, tell us about IC cars and what you do there.

[Carl Brower]

Sure. So IC Cars is primarily a vehicle listing site where you can go on and filter on everything from price to range, you know, distance from your house to fuel efficiency to brands, models, odometer reading and look, you know, filter on all these things to find cars that you're interested in buying new and used. We also have some unique things that no other sites have, like predicted lifespan for cars, which can be pretty helpful when you're looking at two or three different used cars and you want to know how much, how long each one's going to last. And then we also have a bunch of stuff that I think we're going to talk more about today, which is the data that we use. We have so much data that we have great data team and they're just crunching it and always coming up with really cool stories. Both just general knowledge about automotive, but also can be very helpful when you're again shopping for a car. A lot of guidance there on which cars you should buy. Good example colors. Which color holds their value the best, which color has higher depreciation. We have a study for that along with a lot of other.

[Paul Harold]

You really go deep then. If you're talking about colors, that's great.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah. Fun stuff.

[Tom Appel]

I just saw someone's most popular colors list and the first seven colors were variations on white and black. We're still boring. Like on some level, the American industry, car industry sucks.

[Paul Harold]

Silver and gray, don't forget.

[Tom Appel]

Meanwhile, I just saw an orange Chevy Colorado.

[Paul Harold]

That's cool.

[Tom Appel]

More of those, please.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Brower]

You know, I was, I was watching an old, older TV show, like the 70s, from the 70s, and they had these random shots and I'm like, look at that color on the. You know, it was like a rainbow in the park in the parking lot. And I was like, boy, that's 1970. You know, like late 1970s versus the mid-2020s. That's for sure.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. And I haven't watched this in a long time because it's not on when I see it and I'm not going to chase after it. But Adam 12, if people remember that show, put police. Police show. It's, it's, it's a great show because everything in it is sort of by the book. If you want to learn about police procedure, kind of watch this show. But, but it's a wonderful document of Los Angeles in the late 60s and early 70s and the car scene out there. And there's stuff out there that no one in Chicago ever saw. Yeah, like the first Subarus and stuff like that. But the colors are great and wood paneled wagons are everywhere. It's just a wonderful thing to see. And dune buggies. Dune buggies on the street. Like, oh, what a cool girl that would have been. But. Yeah. Well, we should probably talk a little, a little bit about the new market here. One of the crazy things that you noticed and one of the things that you guys wrote to us about before you joined us today was the fact that EV prices had been going down. Used EV prices had been going down, but used Tesla prices as we're on the climb. What was that about?

[Carl Brower]

Yeah, it's really interesting because obviously you guys were mentioning that we've, we've lost some incentive to buy EVs from the government. And then we've theoretically gained some back to buy EVs from our local fuel station pricing board. And so a lot of people in the last month have been contacting us like everyone's running back to EVs. See, EVs. EVs. EVs. And it's like, well, EVs did have some growth in Q1, which included the month of March when, and toward the end of February when prices are starting to shoot up, but they went up in terms of market share on the used market. How many cars were like changing hands and all that by 15.9% EVs, that's impressive. Hybrids been up by hybrids went up by 41.8%, almost three times the rate that EVs went up. So I feel like to me that's just further validation. And it's like, okay, for every EV that someone bought, three people were buying a hybrid, right? And that's that, that tether, you know, that you, you have to break from the fuel world and add the other tether to the, to the plug. You know, literally a tether that, a cord that you have to be able to plug in. And it's just hard for people to do that even when gas prices have gone up 30 plus percent in the last, you know, eight plus weeks. So it's just, it was fascinating to look at that. But there was one exception to that and that was Tesla. Of course, Tesla, if anyone didn't already know, Tesla kind of lives in their own world and they, you know, I feel, I almost feel bad, guys, for all these car companies that have so clearly thought, well, Tesla can do it, we can do it. And whether they're pure EV maker companies or traditional car companies, dumping all their investment into EVs, looking at Tesla's numbers, thinking, we'll just do what they did. And as we all know, pretty much none of them have done that. None of the US based ones or European based ones. There's some Chinese car companies that have made some progress in the last five years, as we know, but there's just this Tesla world that kind of exists outside of all the normal things. And in the last three months, Q1, first quarter of 2026, they were holding their prices better, they were selling faster, they were, they were just not dropping from like a year earlier, you know, and their price, their prices had gone down from Q1 25 to Q1 26. Their year over year price change of a Tesla EV 0.1%. We're going to call that flat.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah.

[Carl Brower]

And the non Tesla EVs down 10.3%, 10% drop. So it's just a different world when you're talking tests and you can't, you, you can't look at EV pricing and assume that that's every Tesla still the bulk of the market. And that makes EVs look one way. When you filter Tesla and separate them out from the rest, you get a better picture of what the non EV Tesla market is. And the Tesla market.

[Paul Harold]

I think some of that has to do with the fact that Tesla is ev. Like when you think of Tesla, that's it. But the other brands, you know, they have gasoline and EVs and sometimes I talk to customers and stuff like that and they're like, they don't even know that Hyundai makes EVs. And it's like, are you kidding me? Like really, you don't know? It's like, oh no, I thought it's Tesla. So I have a feeling that part of this reason why Tesla seems to be rebound or bouncing in the right direction might be just because they are so synonymous with the ev.

[Tom Appel]

That's a really interesting point, Paul. If you're thinking right now that gas prices are high and you were, you'd have to have already been ready to buy an ev. I think.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

You're not just going to jump into this because gas prices went up a buck, hopefully, because it's a big decision. But if you were almost there anyway and, and you weren't really paying attention, but you knew that Tesla made them. Yeah, it's kind of the easy choice.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Also, I don't think people remember model three or model Y and they certainly don't remember like EV6, you know.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Or ionic five, so.

[Paul Harold]

Five.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have the name, the name, the name out there.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. And I think that's why they're the ones that are kind of still, they're not affected as much as the other brands.

[Tom Appel]

Carl, do you think the stigma is off of Tesla now or some of the stigma?

[Carl Brower]

You know, I mean, I think, I think, funny, I think there's less stigma on EVs than ever, but I think there some stigma, More, more stigma on Tesla than ever from certain people, certain people in certain circles and certain persuasions that are not fans of Tesla. They're not fans of Elon like they were up until a couple years ago. So that's interesting. But again, and I got a lot of calls over the last year. Plus, as you can imagine, it's like so Everyone just hates Tesla now and they're on the outs, huh? And again, it's like, well, that makes for a great headline and a pithy quote, but it's not really true. I'd rather be honest with you guys. So then I, I have to tell them the truth. It's like, no, I'm sure he's lost some, some customers, but I think he might have gained some customers. And I think we're talking edge cases here, margins. I think people who wanted a Tesla forever still bought one if they could in the last year. And people who would never buy a Tesla didn't buy one in the last year or two years. And they don't really care about the other stuff.

[Tom Appel]

The interesting thing about Tesla is I think that we're way past proof of concept with that. The Model Y, there's millions of them out there. I don't know how many are available used, but it's kind of a safety play at this point. We know they're not disastrous. We know they don't burst into flames. You know, we know the batteries last, there might be little problems with them, but, but they're largely proven. Yes, and I think it's kind of a safe place. Carl, do you have a sense of, of shifting gears slightly here? Honda, for example, completely bailed on the EV thing now and then for a bunch of good, good reasons. But it's weird that now Toyota has stepped in and Subaru have stepped in and Cadillac seems to have recommitted. What do you think of these decisions and do you think the market's going to reward the companies for, especially with high gas prices, reward these companies for sticking with it?

[Carl Brower]

Well, I think outlook is just a tough world. It's a tough world to enter the easy market and expect to do well and pay your bills with it. Now one of the big difference between Honda and Toyota, for instance, is one of those car companies is kind of ginormous and one of them is not. So Toyota can play in the EV world and not really risk their long term health, financial health or stability very much. Honda goes all in on EVs and get it, gets it wrong, they're in big trouble. And I think that's what they realized. And they said, you know what, we're going to take this much of a write down, as they say, which essentially is a loss if we bail on EVs right now. And this much of a write down or the company kind of evaporating if we go all in and we have a problem selling these cars. So we're going to be prudent and pull back at least for the near term. And then Cadillac and GM is kind of more like the Toyota situation again. Cadillac isn't a super high volume seller. You know, that's one of the divisions that's kind of struggled a bit within GM from all the other ones have done better. So I think I've said that for years. I've said, notice the brands that said they were going all ev, the traditional brands that started, you know, I didn't hear that from Chevy or Ford or Toyota. I heard it from Mini and Jaguar.

[Tom Appel]

Jaguar.

[Carl Brower]

I'm not painting a picture or anything of like, why that. Okay, I am, I'm totally painting the picture. Yeah. Hey, our brand isn't doing very well anyways. Everyone seems to think EVs are EV. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're doing.

[Paul Harold]

But Toyota was, was a. They really didn't jump into the EV right away.

[Tom Appel]

Right. They dragged their feet. There were activist investors on their butts about not doing more about EVs. And now they're coming out in a very measured.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Way. And I think it's totally market appropriate. Yeah, it feels market appropriate.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. I mean, obviously they, they were like, well, let's see what happens first, you know, before they.

[Carl Brower]

Yes.

[Paul Harold]

If you put, you know, $4 billion in investment into it. So I think that was a smart move.

[Tom Appel]

So Carl, I feel like. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

[Carl Brower]

I feel like Toyota is pretty brilliant. And I mean, I was in a lot of these scrums, as they call them, you know, with all the journalists and they were kind of doing their not so thinly veiled tisk for years, where's your EVs, where's your EVs? And Toyota would very consistently and politely say as nice as they could. They didn't use these words, guys. But there were some response was something nicely dressed up to, we're not dumping money into a bad business model. They never said that. But that's what they were saying in the nice way. And I was and I respected them for that. And all of a sudden, boom, somebody looks like the smartest guys in the room. And my attitude is, hey guys, rest of the industry, you can bet against Toyota if you want to. Everyone who's done that in the past has lost, but maybe you'll be right this time. Go ahead and bet against them. And also, I kind of like the Toyota stuff story because to me what you guys said is exactly right. They prudently watched the market and now they're prudently dipping their toe in the water without putting themselves at risk, which really is what all the car companies should have done. And ask me how I know. Let's. Let's total up the write down from the last six months.

[Tom Appel]

Part of what happens too, though, and this is especially with American carmakers, but globally too, is that carmakers are way, way, way too responsive to shareholders. Builders, in my opinion.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And. And for A While before EVs, remember there was that brief period of time during which Mark Fields was fired for not being tech enough at Ford where we were all supposed to be going autonomous.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

And I don't know where that washed away to, but then we were all going electric and. Until Covet.

[Carl Brower]

Yep.

[Tom Appel]

Until covet. When Ford launched the F150 Lightning, that seemed like it. We had just lit the EV fuse and we were going to be all electric and six months and it seemed like. And then covet happened and supply chain shortages happened and Ford kept raising the price of the F150.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Like ridiculously. And then the whole world's like, oh, this kind of sucks. Also, I called about installing a charging station. You know, then it's six grand and. I don't know.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Not to mention the. Once the range came out, when you were towing something, that was a lot of bad press too.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. And it turned out to be true. Pretty much towing with any ev.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

It just. It hurt.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah. Remember the, the tour that Farley did to go talk to all the happy Tesla or. Sorry, all the happy Ford F150 Lightning owners, except he didn't find any happy. I mean, that was, that was a. That was a tough PR tour. It didn't quite go the way I think it was pictured.

[Tom Appel]

It didn't. And the crazy thing is the F150 Lightning was a delight to drive.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

I mean, I don't, I don't tow, so to me, what a nice vehicle. Yeah, I really liked it all. The thing I drove was close to 90 grand, but. Hey, Carl, let's switch gears for a second. You have a new podcast.

[Carl Brower]

Yeah, we do. I have been working now for six months with Lauren Fix. We have been doing the drive with Lauren and Carl. This is a kind of extension of the drive with Alan Taylor. He's been doing that radio show and started doing podcasts like people do the last 10 years. He'd been doing that since the 90s. And then he kind of reached the stage where he was ready to move on. He's moved up to Oregon. He's become Farmer Allen as we joke with him and all that. And he's just got other things to do. But he was happy, as Lauren and I were one of his consistent guests, to introduce us as the host now of the show officially and have us take over. And yeah, we're on the radio stations, we go on the podcast, and we added a visual element. So if you go to the drive with Lauren and Carl on YouTube, you can watch us as well as hear us talk about car industry.

[Tom Appel]

Sounds cool. And you can download it any place

[Carl Brower]

that's all over the podcast platform. Spotify, Apple, iHeartradio. Wherever you need to go to get your podcast, it's there.

[Tom Appel]

Very cool. And then the most important question, are you having fun doing it?

[Carl Brower]

It's funny you say that because I went into the storm. Well, I, I think this sounds like a fun idea, but, you know, and it took about maybe two or three episodes before I was like, no, no, this is absolutely fun. And that, that made me very much happy here. To keep going to like, this is adding to my plate. But when I add fun to my plate, my plate seems to. My plate overfloweth, as they might say. So it's okay.

[Tom Appel]

How can we keep track of what you're working on, sir?

[Carl Brower]

If you go to the drive with Horn and Carl on YouTube or any of those podcasts, you can see that I'm on Forbes, of course. I've got two stories going up that were happening to both be embargoed for tomorrow. You know, the. The May 5th. Although who knows when you're listening to this and I do have my own channel. Carl Brower, cars also on YouTube.

[Tom Appel]

Sounds good. Carl, thank you so much for your time today.

[Carl Brower]

Absolutely fun being on with you guys, but we'd love to be on again. If you need any help and you're having a slow week for guests, I'm happy to fill in.

[Tom Appel]

Even if it's a busy week, we'd love to have you back on.

[Carl Brower]

That'd be great.

[Tom Appel]

All right, that was Carl Brower. He is executive analyst at IC Cars. We're going to take a break and when we come back.

[Paul Harold]

Quiz time.

[Tom Appel]

Quiz time.

[Podcast Host Intro]

Questions or comments? Drop us a line at car [e-mail] that's car [e-mail].

[Capella University Announcer]

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[Carvana Customer]

I sold my car in Carvana last night.

[Carl Brower]

Well, that's cool.

[Carvana Customer]

No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

[Carvana Announcer]

So what's the problem?

[Carvana Customer]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Carvana Announcer]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Carvana Customer]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Carvana Announcer]

Wow. You need to relax.

[Carvana Customer]

I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?

[Carvana Announcer]

I think it's laminate.

[Carvana Customer]

Okay. Yeah. That's good. That's close enough.

[Carvana Announcer]

Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.

[National Debt Relief Announcer (alternate)]

Confronting high credit card debt can feel scary. But the good news is if you owe $10,000 or more in credit card debt, financial relief options are now available. National Debt Relief is currently offering debt relief designed to reduce what you owe. Fast tracking your way to being debt free. If you qualify for debt relief, you may be able to pay back significantly less than what you owe and save thousands of dollars. Imagine only paying one low monthly program payment you can afford and saving money as you become debt free. National Debt relief has already helped bring debt relief to over 550,000 US consumers, earning thousands of five star reviews and an A rating with the Better Business Bureau. You're stronger than your credit card debt. Take the first step and visit nationaldebtrelief.com to see what debt relief you qualify for. That's nationaldebtrelief.com hey, sweetie.

[Carvana Customer (possibly same as J)]

Your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer.

[Carl Brower]

Unbelievable.

[Carvana Customer (possibly same as J)]

Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya.

[Carvana Announcer]

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Tom Appel]

Pick up.

[Carvana Announcer]

FE may apply.

[Podcast Host Intro]

Welcome back to the Car Stuff Podcast.

[Tom Appel]

All right, we're back. This is the consumer Guide Car Stuff Podcast. I'm Tom Appel. Thank you for joining us today. In the co host seat is Paul Harold of the Sons of Speed. Paul, how you doing?

[Paul Harold]

Very well.

[Tom Appel]

We're talking quiz here. Yes, it's quiz time.

[Paul Harold]

Quiz time.

[Tom Appel]

I've already lost the quiz, but I've got it here somewhere in all these papers. But tell us real quick about the Sons of Speed and how people can follow what you're working on and when you might think we'll hear the podcast again.

[Paul Harold]

Yes, we had a little technical issues with the podcast, but we, we should be back soon, hopefully. And it's, we are motor driven.com coordinating the activities.

[Tom Appel]

It's four people. Five people.

[Paul Harold]

Four people.

[Tom Appel]

Four people. That's a lot to try.

[Paul Harold]

It is. It is.

[Tom Appel]

If you're trying to get five full, you know, four full time employed working people in a room at the same

[Paul Harold]

time, it is near impossible.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

Which we're finding out.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. It's a great podcast. I hope to hear it again soon.

[Paul Harold]

Yes, we're excited to start, start it up again.

[Tom Appel]

Tell us about we are Motor Driven.

[Paul Harold]

It's a collaboration of Jennifer Jensen from Autozotica, then Brendan Appel and myself for Sons of Speed and Harvey Briggs with rides and drives.

[Tom Appel]

These are good people.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

That's a good cast of characters. All right, are you ready for quiz time?

[Paul Harold]

I'm always ready, Tom.

[Tom Appel]

All right. I don't know if you are.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I, I, it's easy to kind of come up with questions I think will frustrate you.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Or irritate you.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And then that's no good for you, but I think it's good for listeners. All right. Today's consumer guide car stuff podcast Power quiz is best sellers.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I'm gonna give you a model year and two cars. You just have to tell me which one sold better that year.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

So it sounds straightforward.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. I hope the years aren't too crazy.

[Tom Appel]

The first one's not.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Well, maybe a little bit. This might have been, I forgot your birth year, but this might have been it.

[Paul Harold]

I'm 1970.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, this is 1976.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

In 1976, which sold better. And this is a little bit of a trick question. The Oldsmobile Cutlass or the a Ford ltd. And I say it's a trick question because there's a bunch of crap that was called cutless.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Which they lump into one was the

[Paul Harold]

Ford, like part of the, Everyone with the, the cop cars.

[Tom Appel]

Yep.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. Ltd would in 76 would have been a very popular fleet car.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you're laughing now, so

[Tom Appel]

I don't know.

[Paul Harold]

I'm, I'll go with the Oldsmobile.

[Tom Appel]

It was okay. By a shocking amount.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

The Cutlass was so popular in the mid mid 70s. The Cutlass, 496, 000 units.

[Paul Harold]

Wow. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Almost five. That. That's RAV4, my friend.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And the Ford LTD, just 362.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. Well, not.

[Tom Appel]

Just.

[Paul Harold]

Not too bad.

[Tom Appel]

No. All right, you're on the board. So you have one. 1981.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Now we're talking Oldsmobile, Cutlass or Ford Escort.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, that's a good. That's a tough one because I. At one point, I don't remember what year the Ford Escort was like the number one selling car on the planet.

[Tom Appel]

Right?

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. They sold a ton of them in Europe, too.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah. But I know the Cutlets also sold gobs and gobs and gobs.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. In Chicago alone, they probably sold 40 or 50 million.

[Paul Harold]

So the question is, was 81 the year the Ford or was that later on?

[Carl Brower]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So Escort was certainly new.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

That's.

[Paul Harold]

That's why I was. I'm thinking. I'm thinking it's still the Oldsmobile then.

[Tom Appel]

It is.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Okay, well, you're doing well here. It's. It'd be hard for you to lose 454,000 cutlasses, 285,000 and escorts, by the way. Five questions. You need three for a win. The bonus question, which is always related to the topic of the day.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Is one of the three.

[Paul Harold]

All right.

[Tom Appel]

Talents. All right, you've got two points. Nice. Best selling car of 1920.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, no.

[Tom Appel]

Chevrolet, Ford or Cutlass?

[Paul Harold]

That Cutlass is getting some.

[Tom Appel]

It's getting a workout.

[Paul Harold]

Getting a workout.

[Tom Appel]

1920.

[Paul Harold]

Okay. What were they again?

[Tom Appel]

Chevrolet or Ford?

[Paul Harold]

Oh, there's not a specific brand. Just.

[Tom Appel]

No, there really wasn't.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, okay.

[National Debt Relief Announcer (alternate)]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I'm sure they're like Phaetons and coupes and Oldsmobile. No, automobile is not an option for you, sir.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

That was just a bad joke on my part.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

1920.

[Paul Harold]

It's got to be Ford then.

[Tom Appel]

It is.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

By a lot.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Chevy was just coming online. Oh, 800, 6000.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Model T's and a couple of other things. And 146,000 Chevys. So Chevy just coming online. Okay, so you got three then, right? You won. Nice job.

[Paul Harold]

Thank you.

[Tom Appel]

All right. Best selling car of 1903. Oldsmobile or Cadillac?

[Paul Harold]

Oldsmobile. It's gotta be.

[Tom Appel]

It was. Yeah, yeah. The curved dash holes, raking them in. 3000, 924 Oldsmills. And a bunch of Cadillacs. 2500.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

So they got the job done. Those, those. These are ancient brands.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Nice to have Cadillac around. We still have Buick around too.

[Paul Harold]

Was. Was that the time where Stallone was still was the head of Cadillac or. No.

[Tom Appel]

What year is this? 1903. This would be before Cadillac was part of General Motors.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, yeah, that was going to happen later. So Cadillac was on its own. It was.

[Paul Harold]

But also if it wasn't part of general orders back then, was it?

[Tom Appel]

No.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

So. And it was at the time, I think that when Oldsmobile was killed, it was the second oldest car brand.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And the oldest was, I think was a truck. Was it it?

[Paul Harold]

No, it wasn't. Daimler bends.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, in u Of you.

[Paul Harold]

Of us. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, I'm trying to remember now, but I thought it was a check. It might have been Rio, which by the way was set up by Ozoville.

[Paul Harold]

Now you're talking about stuff I know nothing about.

[Tom Appel]

All right, so you have four. Okay, now you're going for a sweep. Best selling non pickup truck of 2025. Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4.

[Paul Harold]

Oh, the RAV4.

[Tom Appel]

Yep. Yeah, buy a lot, but the RAV4, the CRV did nice. 479,000 RAV4. Okay, that's huge by modern standards.

[Paul Harold]

Huge. And then considering the competition out there. That's ridiculous.

[Tom Appel]

So much. It's all good. And then the Honda CRV 400 4000,

[Paul Harold]

which is still amazing.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, it is huge. That's such a money maker for them. And then we were talking about hybrids earlier, RAV4. Now hybrid only for 20, 26. And the CRV then I think, I think they're selling more than half of those as hybrids.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And it's hard to get one. If you want a hybrid, you're stuck with one of those black or white or on the lot things you may not get.

[Paul Harold]

And no negotiation, I bet.

[Tom Appel]

No, I'm pretty sure those are going for retail. All right, very nice. We're up to the bonus question and

[Paul Harold]

as always, related to the topic.

[Tom Appel]

Related to the topic today. What do you tell me what you know about Illinois, the state of Illinois?

[Paul Harold]

Well, I was born there.

[Tom Appel]

Okay.

[Paul Harold]

Can't wait to move out.

[Tom Appel]

Okay. That's two facts

[Paul Harold]

and one of the highest taxes in the country.

[Tom Appel]

So you sold me.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

All right. Illinois is the 25th largest in terms of u. S. State. In terms of land mass, it is the sixth largest in terms of population, 12.8 million people. And it was incorporated into 18. 18. That's when it became a state of the union.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I need you to tell me which of the following is Illinois's leading export.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

I got up late. All right, Are you ready?

[Paul Harold]

Yep.

[Tom Appel]

Machinery.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Excluding electrical, computers and electronic products, transportation equipment or cheese.

[Paul Harold]

Well, it's not cheese. That would be Wisconsin. You know what? Actually, I think this is an easy one for me. I think I'm gonna go with the first one. Machinery.

[Tom Appel]

It is quite a bit of it. We explored $12.5 billion worth a year.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Because I guess I didn't know that.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. I'm in the cabinet industry, as you know, so I know there's a lot of stuff made here.

[Tom Appel]

So. Interesting. Yeah, there are. We were talking about this off. Off air in the Schaumburg area, which is very close to Palatine here. There's a lot of machine tool, low level, huge buildings cranking out some stuff. So you can see where this stuff might be built. But we get really ag too. Like, if you drive one hour south of here, it's just corn.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, that's it. It's flat land and corn. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Illinois is really just Iowa. Plus Chicago.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Really? All right. Nice job. You went. You went six for six.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Wow. Jill, are you listening? It can be done. All right. Thank you. I am jealous of an opportunity you had.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

You're going to need to tell us about that. We. We have a few minutes to talk too, which is nice. But you recently spent some time behind the wheel of a vehicle that everyone probably wants to spend some time behind the wheel of.

[Paul Harold]

Yes, this was my birthday Christmas present and everything wrapped up into one. I got some time into a 2025 Roma Spider. Ferrari.

[Tom Appel]

Ferrari.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Roma Spider.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

The Roma. Probably the prettiest of Ferraris to come along in a while.

[Paul Harold]

It's a very beautiful car. Yes. Yeah. And. And it's not like after Ferrari stopped using pinaforerini, which was their kind of go to design design. Yeah. A lot of people thought they kind of strayed. Like they didn't really have like a direction or they started going.

[Tom Appel]

Like, when did they stop doing that?

[Paul Harold]

You know, I don't know the exact year. It's not. It wasn't too long ago, but.

[Tom Appel]

Because I've complained about supercars in general.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

That they're not interesting to look at. They're just all sorts of vents and ducts.

[Paul Harold]

A lot of it is downforce designed by, you know, the wind tunnel. So there's a.

[Tom Appel]

But it's functional.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. But I love about the Roma Though, it's, it's, it takes some of that, but it also brings back some classic lines. It's really.

[Tom Appel]

It's a beautiful car. No, it's pretty. Yeah, it's just pretty. And one of the things about it, too, not a lot of ducting and stuff like that.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Apart from the simplicity, it's. The car you drove is kind of a gt.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

It's not an over the top.

[Paul Harold]

It's not a sports car.

[Jake Grez (Nurse Jake)]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

It's not a track beast. It's, it's, it's more. A little bit more laid back, but, I mean, still fast as hell, right?

[Tom Appel]

It's still a Ferrari.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, it's still Ferrari. What? The one thing, though, that it's not a problem, but it's kind of a problem is once you drive this car, you will never appreciate any other car again. And what I mean by that is like, okay, my daily car is a BMW M2, which is no slouch. You know, it's. It's got a lot of horsepower.

[Strayer University Announcer]

It's.

[Paul Harold]

It's quick. It's, it's, it's. It very. Handles very well.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah. I've driven the M2.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And if your commute is boring, this fixes that.

[Paul Harold]

Yes. But with that, I don't know if I can ever appreciate the M2 again because, I mean. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Poor, poor Emmy.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay. Just the brakes on the Ferrari, like, unbelievable. The stopping power, the feel, just unbelievable. And then when you get back in my other car, I'm like, God, these brakes aren't as good as I thought they were.

[Tom Appel]

But what is the price difference?

[Paul Harold]

Oh, it's ridiculous.

[Carvana Customer (possibly same as J)]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

It's insane.

[Tom Appel]

I mean, the Ferrari should be those things. Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

Ferrari's like, with options. It's like almost 400 grand. Wow. Yeah. So wow. I mean, they started like the Spider starts at, I think, like 270, but, you know.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, I didn't realize you could still do. Still do a Ferrari under 300.

[Paul Harold]

You can. I don't think anyone's been successful at it.

[Tom Appel]

Right.

[Paul Harold]

Because, you know, oh, you want the little lights in the steering wheel and you want the shields on the, on the, you know, on the sides of the car, which, like, how could you not have those options? And already now you're like 330,000, you know, so. And it just goes up from there. So.

[Tom Appel]

Funny story about that. Back when Consumer Guide still had a print edition that ended in. In 2008, we covered the Porsche 911 because it was a relatively high volume vehicle. Available in the US and we had access to them, we could test drive them. So we reviewed them in the book. But the pricing was so silly because the car way back when would start just at 60 grand. Oh, a 911. It's not an S, it's not anything based transmission. 60 grand. And then there's all these little things you could do. And a minute later you were like 120gr. Oh yeah. Leather faced, speedometer, leather accents in different places. And then you can custom dye that leather for all the different leather accents and the interior and yeah, all the c. You're buying this car.

[Paul Harold]

This car alone had over $100,000 in carbon fiber.

[Tom Appel]

Ah.

[Paul Harold]

So I mean it's, it's, it, it can get absolutely insane.

[Tom Appel]

And real carbon fiber.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, real, real carbon fiber. The real stuff. Yes.

[Tom Appel]

I think a funny thing happened with carbon fiber. I think that people got used to seeing whatever that is, whatever the artificial stuff was.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And that became the new thing.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, it should look like that. And it's not carbon fiber. But on the other hand, I guess you don't really need carbon fiber next to your transmission shifter.

[Carl Brower]

No.

[Paul Harold]

But I will say it looks really nice.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah, you know, looks great.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Appel]

And I don't even know some of the German makers. Like I just drove an Audi, what was an SQ8. I assume that's real carbon fiber, but maybe not. But whatever it was, they're sticking in the trim holes. It's beautiful.

[Paul Harold]

It's beautiful. Yeah. But you know, things like, like the speed of this car is ridiculous. You know, it's 612 horsepower and 561 foot pound, pound feet of torque. But like. Okay, so the M2 has a ZF transmission. Right. The best automatic transmission you can buy today.

[Tom Appel]

That's what they say.

[Paul Harold]

Okay.

[Tom Appel]

And it's in everything. It's secretly in everything.

[Paul Harold]

And when you shift the gears, it's fast and stuff. But let me tell you something. It's molasses compared to the transmission in the Ferrari. Okay.

[Tom Appel]

Now the Ferrari isn't like a conventional automatic.

[Paul Harold]

Is that sequential auto. It's a dual clutch. Yeah. So basically it's a manual transmission with an automated clutch pedal. So it is lightning. I mean it is so fast. It's telepathic. Like you put your finger on the, on the paddles on the steering column and it's like shifting already. It's just unbelievable.

[Tom Appel]

Have you reviewed the car?

[Paul Harold]

Not yet.

[Tom Appel]

Oh, okay.

[Paul Harold]

I'm still driving it.

[Tom Appel]

Okay. I'm looking forward to reading a review about that.

[Paul Harold]

So the other thing that I never even thought about was in my M2, you know, you got the armrest on the door. You get the armrest in the center console.

[Tom Appel]

Yeah.

[Paul Harold]

And, you know, it's very comfortable.

[Tom Appel]

And.

[Paul Harold]

And even when you're. When you're driving quickly and on curvy roads, you know, basically you realize that those armrests are a little bit in the way of making turns with the steering wheel. So I find myself, like, tucking my arms in to miss them and give myself more range of motion. In the Ferrari, that's not a problem. The armrests in the door and the armrests in the center console are away from you.

[Tom Appel]

So interesting.

[Paul Harold]

You have. You have no restriction in your range of motion when you're turning the wheel. I mean, just, you know, just those little details that you never think about,

[Tom Appel]

which I never would have thought.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah, but they. But they obviously do because that's. That's their business making, you know, fast cars and that perform well on the track as well as on curvy roads. So, you know, they think about this kind of stuff.

[Tom Appel]

So I have to ask the question. I think everyone is thinking.

[Paul Harold]

Yes.

[Tom Appel]

Does it use a premium gas?

[Paul Harold]

Yes, it does. And it uses a lot of it. This thing is so thirsty. I find myself, like, every couple days putting in another half a tank of gas. It's ridiculous. Of course, I'm driving it like I stole it, but.

[Tom Appel]

Of course.

[Paul Harold]

But it's so much fun. And the noise it makes with that flat plane crank, it's just. I'm loving every second of it.

[Tom Appel]

Well, that's very cool. I'm glad you had that opportunity.

[Paul Harold]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Appel]

Well, guess what? We did.

[Paul Harold]

We burned to another hour.

[Tom Appel]

We did.

[Carl Brower]

We did.

[Tom Appel]

Big thanks to Carl Brower of IC Cars. Thank you. Thanks to you, Paul, for sitting in.

[Paul Harold]

Sure, sure.

[Tom Appel]

For Jill this week. Thanks to producer John, sitting in for producer Randy this week. Let's talk more about. About cars next week. Next week.