A (2:20)

So the great dialogue between us and God.

C (2:23)

That's right.

A (2:23)

Church the bride. So those are two great books, Genesis and the Psalms. And then if I had to throw in one, I would say Genesis is really important for the beginning, the foundation. If I had to throw in one other book, I would say the Book of Revelation, which gives us the ending. So you want to know your beginnings and your ending, and you want to know where we're going. And so I would add the Book of Revelation to that. I was tempted. Isaiah was my close second. After that, Genesis and Psalms, those would be my first two out of the Old Testament. But then Isaiah as the prophet who foretells the suffering servant, and Jesus known as the fifth Gospel, as the tradition oftentimes calls Isaiah's book as the fifth Gospel. So, great question. What other books do Catholics know? So I hope this is. I'm so glad to hear these kinds of questions from you because it shows the hunger that Catholics have for the Word of God. One of our deep convictions here is that since Vatican 2, the Church has called for renewal in biblical studies and for all Catholics to know the word of God and to read it daily. And in a sense, since the Reformation, we Catholics kind of got away from Scripture a bit, and now there's a great return. And I think that's going to be part of the new springtime for the church is the hunger I'm hearing and the zeal. And just having 12,000 people come to this conference today is a great sign of encouragement of the hunger for the word of God. Well, here's the next question.

C (3:45)

What.

A (3:45)

What important discovery was made with the Dead Sea Scrolls? So the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in 1947, and really, they didn't really get published until a lot of them, until the 1990s, even. And so what's one of the important discoveries that you would highlight with that?

B (4:04)

I mean, the Dead Sea Scrolls are so tremendous. There's so much available. I mean, really, up until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we didn't have any copies of the Old Testament that were more than 1000 years old. Now all of a sudden, we have literal manuscripts from the time of Jesus. And so, of course, some of the largest discoveries would be like the great Isaiah scroll, which is one of the biggest scrolls among them all. But the one that I find the most fascinating, actually, is the Book of Tobit. So for a long, long time, we've had two Greek versions of Tobit, Greek one and Greek two. And Greek one is shorter, Greek two is longer by about 1700 words. And we found four fragments of Tobit in Aramaic and Hebrew. And when they were discovered and published, we realized that the long version of the Greek was the more authentic one. It was the more ancient one, the one. So it's.

A (4:58)

Which is counterintuitive. Just so people understand that in biblical studies, when you do textual criticism, you think that the longer is, someone got verbose and they expanded and that the shorter would be closer to the original.

C (5:12)

Right.

A (5:12)

And it was the opposite.

B (5:13)

It was the opposite. Right. So those discoveries affirmed that Greek too was better. And so all translations since then have been based on Greek too. All translations of Tobit. For example, the translation of Tobit in the new English Standard Version, Catholic edition, is from Greek too, because of the discoveries in the Dead Sea.

C (5:31)

And that's the first version. Right. If I'm not mistaken, in a Catholic Bible in English. Right.

A (5:37)

So the Revised, having the Greek two, the Revised. The better version of Tobit, you're saying? I don't think that's out there is the first Bible.

C (5:46)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that. Is that in another English Catholic Bible, the longer version?

B (5:50)

I think it's in the new American Bible.

C (5:52)

Oh, is it? Okay. The revised one. Okay.

B (5:54)

But it's not in the RSV or any other previous translations in that stream.

A (5:58)

So since you're bringing up translations, I'll come back to the translations in a minute. So I'll hold that, because I know people have a lot of questions about translations, which translation to use, and we just heard that the rsv, even Catholic edition, doesn't have the better version of Tobit that we now know from the dead sea scrolls. Dr. Barber, what would you say for the Dead Sea Scrolls? There are so many things?

C (6:19)

There's so many things. Well, there are two kinds of scrolls you find at Qumran, which is the place where, of course, the discovery was made.

A (6:27)

And just to give background for everybody, the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in present day Israel in the Judean wilderness, which is, you know, about 35, 40 miles southwest or southeast of Jerusalem. So out in that wilderness area. So in the Qumran area, as we call it, where there was a Qumran community.

C (6:46)

Right. So there are two kinds of finds there in terms of manuscripts. You have biblical texts, but then we also have non biblical texts that we didn't even know about. So we have documents that were written by the community.

A (7:01)

That of devout Jews.

C (7:03)

Yeah, A community of devout Jews. We really don't know much about it for sure. And I find fascinating these sectarian documents, as they're called, that envision what will happen when the Messiah comes. So you have these ancient Jews in Jesus's day sort of putting their heads together and figuring out, well, what will the Messiah do when he comes? Right? And one of the most fascinating texts to me is in 4Q, it's called 4Q521, which means it's the fourth fragment. It's found in the fourth cave at Qumran. It's the 521st fragment. So, wow, lots of fragments here. And in this particular document, they envision the Messiah doing things that are described in Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61. Things like healing, things like raising up those who are dead, raising the dead, things like proclaiming the good news. Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61 combined. Well, what's fascinating is, for example, in Matthew 11, we also find a passage in Luke where the disciples of John come and ask Jesus, are you the Messiah or should we look for another? And Jesus says, well, look at what you see. And then he brings together Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61. Now that's fascinating because Jesus, Jesus gives virtually the same list of things that you find in the Dead Sea Scroll. So we know that Jesus is doing things in the Gospels that Jews in his day were expecting the Messiah to do. With one exception. In Matthew and Luke, he adds, the lepers are cleansed. So not even the Dead Sea community imagined that lepers would be cleansed. Leprosy could be cleansed. Only God can cleanse leprosy. So that shows us that Jesus in some ways fulfills what expectations were, but then also transcends them.

A (9:06)

Yeah, there's a treasure trove of insights and wisdom we have into the Word of God. And as Mark, you mentioned too, at the beginning, it reconfirms our trust in the Word of God that we have. You know, this really validates that the Old Testament passed on. You know, even though we don't have a lot of manuscripts, we. We get this ancient one and we realize that the manuscript tradition we have is very faithful and very accurate. And I think that just the fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered right after World War II, right after the Holocaust, and you have the year before the creation of the state of Israel. To me, it's a real sign of God's providence that God is validating his word right after these horrible human atrocities, all this violence and bloodshed and murder and evil with somebody like Hitler, who is a kind of Antichrist, not the ultimate one, but a kind of one. And God lets this discovery that's been for 2000 years sitting in these caves in the Jin wilderness, not discovered. And now they're discovered when we can preserve them, when we have the ability to assess them. And I think it's just a sign of God's providential care for us in our times, and it should give us an encouragement of faith. So I love the question that people are asking about what's important about the Dead Sea Scrolls. So much more to say about that. But we'll move on to some of your other questions. Here's one. What does Simeon mean in Luke 2:35 when he says that Mary's heart will be pierced so that the thoughts of many will be revealed? So what does that mean? That Mary's heart will be pierced by a sword, actually.

C (10:51)

Right. So many scholars point out that in various Jewish works, for example, like Ezekiel, the idea of a sword coming is linked to the idea of a period of tribulation. We find that idea of a tribulation a period of great suffering. We find that in many different Jewish works in the Scriptures as well, for example, in Daniel 12, we read that there will be a time of tribulation, a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. And so then it goes on to describe how the dead will be raised and how the new creation essentially will dawn. And so there's a recognition that new creation is only going to come through a period of suffering. And Mary herself isn't just going to give birth to the Messiah, who, as we know, experiences the suffering of the tribulation. She's actually going to participate in his suffering. And that's a key idea that we find not just in the New Testament, but also, for example, in the Book of Daniel, in Daniel chapter seven, where we read about the Son of Man, there's a period of great tribulation and suffering that precedes the coming of the kingdom. Now, that line about the thoughts of many hearts being revealed, that's a fascinating line, isn't it? One possible explanation for that is there's an understanding that in the eschatological age, in that future age in which God saves his people in those latter days, all that has been hidden is going to be revealed, right? And so Mary is going to participate in the suffering that's going to bring about the revelation of truth that the world has been longing to see. And of course, now, in light of the new Testament, we can say that revelation is the revelation of Jesus as the Messiah at his second coming, when all will see him coming on the clouds. See, So I think there's something there. Last thing many of my non Catholic Christian friends ask. Do you really believe that Mary is able to hear your prayers somehow and offer them? I mean, how could Mary, she's only human. How could that happen? Well, that fits perfectly with this idea in Luke 2 that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed and she participates in that. So it's not at all a stretch to imagine that Mary is able to pray for us and with the knowledge given to her by grace.

A (13:20)

Yeah, infused by grace. Infused by God. Mark, anything you want to add to that?

C (13:24)

No, that's great.

B (13:24)

I mean, that's fantastic. I mean, I think for me, it calls up to mind all these scenes in the Old Testament of, like, the suffering of daughter Zion and these other feminine images for God's people who experience this great suffering and that through that suffering comes deliverance.

C (13:40)

Right?

A (13:42)

Next question. What do we know about Jesus that transpired during his three days that he descended into hell? So was he walking around like the walking dead, saving souls? What was Jesus doing between being buried on Good Friday and being raised on Easter Sunday? So, good question, because that's actually in the Bible, referred to in a couple places. So who would like to start?

B (14:11)

Yeah, well, it says he preaches, right?

A (14:14)

Yeah.

B (14:14)

I mean, Jesus engages in preaching in Galilee, but then he also preaches in the limbo of the Fathers, you know, so he proclaims the Gospel to the souls of the heroes of the Old Testament. One of my favorite icons depicts this, right? Where Jesus has descended down into hell and he seeks out Adam and Eve, and he takes Adam by the hand and leads him out of hell and into the gates of paradise. And I just think it's such a powerful image for what he's engaged in, Right? He's not just saving people who come subsequently and who believe in him, but he's going back and saving the Father of all of humanity. And that the salvation of Adam was actually a contentious point in early Christianity. And the orthodox fathers insisted, no, no, no. Adam is saved, right? And Adam is redeemed. Makes me think of a line from Wisdom, chapter 10, verse 1, where it says that wisdom saved Adam from his transgression. You're thinking, well, how does that really come to pass in the Old Testament? And it really doesn't come to fulfillment until Jesus, who is wisdom incarnate, descends into hell and saves Adam from his

A (15:28)

great transgression I love that image. Michael, you want to talk about, because there's a part of the test.

C (15:32)

There's a place there.

A (15:33)

Where should they go in the Bible

C (15:34)

to find out about this? Michael My favorite passage on this is actually found in Eph Ephesians, chapter 4. And there are some debates among scholars about exactly how that should be interpreted. William Bales, Bill Bales has a great article on this where he basically shows how interpretation that sees Jesus going down into the realm of the dead on Holy Saturday makes a lot of sense of this passage. And here we see how he who descended is the one who also ascends from far above all the heavens. And it goes on to talk about in context how he leads a host of captives to heaven. But, you know, we could talk about Jesus death, but there's another aspect of this that we don't want to overlook that Thomas Aquinas sees as incredibly important. What does Jesus do on Holy Saturday? He's dead. That's what he. I mean, we have this kind of attitude, well, what does he do? He has to do something.

A (16:29)

What's he doing?

C (16:30)

You know, And Thomas wants to underscore that his body remains in the tomb on the Sabbath, and that this is critically important because Jesus fulfills the Sabbath in the most perfect way, right? Because we might imagine that in order to fulfill the Old Testament, we have to do stuff. But a real faithful perspective also understands that we're called to enter into God's rest. That's the hardest part of the Sabbath, right? Is not doing anything. Because, you know, it's easy to do stuff because I feel like I'm being productive. It's easy to work because I feel like I'm earning money for my family. But to take a day off and not do anything, that takes trust. And that's, I think, what Jesus is teaching us on Holy Saturday.

A (17:15)

Given your energy, I'm sure resting on the Sabbath takes a lot of work. You know, I think that. And also to simplify, there's so much. You can also go back to second Epistle of Peter. Oh, sure, First Peter. First Peter. I'm sorry, One Peter talks about the importance of Jesus going down to the dead and the harrowing of hell, as we call it in the tradition. So you can go back and find more about that there. But a lot of people, I think on the basic level, I just want to answer one simple question. People are like, well, what does it mean that Jesus goes to hell? You know, he descended into hell. But that word hell there, at that point, it's Hades, which is Sheol, the place of the dead. And the place of the dead in the Old Testament era is where the dead and Jesus tells a parable about two ends of Sheol or Hades, that there's a place of Abraham's bosom where those who are righteous and just are consoled, but then there's a place of fire where those who are wicked are punished. And that when Jesus comes, he redeems the souls who are just and righteous, and he brings them to heaven. And then the souls in hell stay in hell, and then it becomes known as Hell. And so that separation between heaven and hell become really at Jesus heroin of hell. That would be the transformation. And it becomes hell as we know it today.

C (18:31)

But the suffering of the damned.

A (18:33)

Of the suffering of the damned, what

C (18:34)

you're saying is that Hell, Hell, when we say Jesus descends into hell, we're not saying Jesus goes to the place of the damned.

A (18:40)

Exactly, exactly. And that causes people a lot of confusion because they think, well, he went down. Well, Adam and Eve were in hell and Jesus took them out of hell, the place of the damned. But it wasn't hell in the technical sense of the place of the dead, as we talk about it now, where those who are going to be damned, it's the place of the dead, Sheol or Hades, the place of the dead. And then Hades then becomes divided clearly after the time of Christ's death and resurrection and his hearing of hell between heaven, where those will be beatitude with God, and Hell, where those who are condemned to the fires. And so that's just an important distinction, I think, for people, but great question. I love that people have all these questions. Here's a great one. What is the best way to study the Bible? What is the best way to study the Bible? So we have a couple of great Bible scholars here, so I hope we're going to get some good answers for everybody out there from these expert Bible studiers. So what's the best way to study the Bible? What's a.

B (19:40)

All right, I'll attempt. Okay, so there are two types of reading, and that's important to remember. Passive and active. So when you read passively, you know, you read a cheap novel and you know, paperback, mass market paperback for entertainments, and you're just kind of reading to fall asleep or whatever. This is passive reading. You're just enjoying the story but not thinking too hard. But then there's active reading. You're studying for the bar exam, right? You've got a huge fat book of legal things you need to memorize and work through and take notes on. And you're making all sorts of markings in the. In the book and whatever, so you can prepare for the exam and pass the exam, because your whole life depends on it. Your whole career depends on it. And I think that when we come to the Bible, it's really easy to fall into the mode of passive reading, like as if we're reading a novel for entertainment. But we really want to shift modes into active reading, right? But even with Bible reading, I think there are two types, fast and slow, okay? And I think we're accustomed to reading the Bible very slowly, right? We hear the Bible at Mass, proclaimed in an elegant way. Maybe we're familiar with lectio divina, the prayerful reading of sacred scripture. These are very important modes. But I like to encourage people also to do a little bit of fast Bible reading. In the tradition, we call it lectio continua, where you're reading through the books really fast. You're trying to get the big picture. So one of the problems with Catholics is because we encounter Scripture in these little snippets in the readings at Mass or in the Liturgy of the Hours or in our prayer books, we tend to just sort of have this kind of, like, agglomeration of snippets. So if you could imagine where you had, like, your whole Bible was sort of in little, like, on sticky notes, you know, and it just. You open up your backpack and it's just full of sticky notes, and you pull one out and you're like, oh, that's nice. You know, the Lord is my shepherd. That's great. You put that down, pull up another sticky note. I'm the bread of life, but there's no coherence, right? You don't understand what you're looking at because it's all these little snippets. This is why it's important for us to read the Bible fast, to try to understand it as it's presented to us, right? So we know what the Gospel of Mark says. We know what the book of Romans says, and we know what Isaiah says. We know what Genesis says because we're reading those books cover to cover, so to speak, right? We're reading all the way from beginning to end, and now all of a sudden, we have a framework on which we can hang our lectio divina and on which we can stick all of our little sticky notes.

A (21:55)

That's great.

C (21:56)

I would say that my favorite thing to do. I'm a father. I have six Kids. And every night at dinner, we break out this great little book that the Augustine Institute publishes called the Bible in a Year. And it takes you through the whole Bible in a year, so it does exactly what it promises. And we do just the Old Testament, and then we do just the New Testament. We alternate every other year. And what I love about that is you get the whole picture because you're reading every book. You're being very deliberate. I love it that there are days so that you can time yourself, all right, we got to do this for this day. It's a manageable amount of time every day. And I love that it's sort of in snippets, right? So we read maybe three chapters a day, not counting the Psalm or something like that. And then after we're done reading, I ask the kids, what did God try to tell you in that reading today? What stood out to you? Right? And they all have to go around and kind of talk about, well, what do I think this is trying to challenge me to? Or I asked them, what didn't you understand? What's a line? And you don't have to come up with a million questions, but you should probably come up with some. And one of the best things to do in order to get there is. Is to read the Bible like you never read it before. So I would recommend January 1st, start the Bible any year and read it like you've never read it before. Don't say, oh, yeah, I've heard that before. But listen very carefully and ask questions. What does that word mean? What is that trying to communicate to me? What is the Lord trying to teach me in this reading? And I find that to just be so enriching and so powerful. And then it kind of. It spurs me on, too, because I'll say, wow, I never noticed that. So we just finished a wisdom, and Dr. Giescheck has a great little pamphlet out with Ignatius Press on wisdom and wisdom of Solomon and wisdom of Sirach. And so we actually have that at our table every night. And the kids ask a question and open up. Let's see what Dr. Giescheck has to say. You know, there might be some little nugget in there. So I think that's a great way to read just 20 minutes a day with your family and just do a little bit every day. And then you see the big picture. But you're not too overwhelmed.

A (24:18)

That's terrific. Well, I think the best way to study the Bible is exactly what both of you said, and that is to read it Whether fast or slow, whatever method around that, you have to read it and reread it. I mean, I'm sure I speak for all of you. We've all read the Bible over and over and over again in different books many, many times. And every time I read the Bible, I learn something new. And one of the great doctors of the church, St. Gregory the Great, said that the Bible grows as you grow. So as you grow in maturity, life experience, holiness, prayer, your reading of the Bible will likewise mature and grow. And so it's not just having good study methods, it's also having a good prayer life. It's having character and just spending time in reflection. But ultimately, the best way to study the Bible is to ground your life and your study and your reading the Bible with prayer. And so that's something that's going to be rich and engaging. And I'm glad you mentioned the Bible in a year. I have a friend who's done the Bible in a year now. He does it every year. And he was just remarking to me as he was reading through Esther and he said, you know, the political situation today, I'd never read Esther that way before, but it opened up my eyes to seeing the meaning of the Book of Esther in new ways. And that's the beautiful thing. And I think that really goes Back to what St. Gregory the Great said, that you grow and so will your reading of Scripture grow. But the most important thing, keep reading. Keep reading and rereading. You can't digest the Bible in one quick reading. There's so much richness. It's a vast ocean that has a great depth that we can never plumb in our own lives. And so. But it's a rich thing, worth our study, worth our time. So then follow up question. Here's another question. Why are we now getting so many different versions of the Bible from diverse sources? You know, Word on Fire has a wonderful new Bible. Ascension Press has their study Bible. So why are we getting so many different versions? Now I'm going to ask Dr. Mark Giescheck to start this because Dr. Mark has just written a book that's going to be published by the Augusta Institute in another six to nine months on Bible translations, on Catholic Bible translations. So why are we getting so many all of a sudden, Catholics have not gotten new Bibles for decades and decades, most people's lifetime. And all of a sudden in the last few years, they're getting bombarded with ads for all kinds of new Bibles.

B (26:54)

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's Been a total famine, right? I mean, we got the New American Bible in 1970 and the New American Bible Revised Edition in 2011, and of course, we got the RSV Catholic Edition in 1966, and we've gotten the NRSV in 1990. So we have gotten quite a few Bible translations. It's true that there have been. There's been a kind of deluge of new products, right? So the great adventure Bible, which is a great way to get into the Bible and into the story, which is in the RSV translation, the Word on Fire Bible, which right now is just in the Gospels, but it focuses on the Gospels and has lots of commentary and beautiful pictures and this sort of thing. I think that the more Bible products that we get, the better, right? So the more tools and aids we have to study the Bible, the better off we are. If you go to a Christian bookstore that's got Protestant Bibles and Catholic Bibles, it's painful, right? Because you're like, wow, The Protestants have 150 choices when it comes to buying a Bible, right? They've got six or seven or 10 or 12 translations and all these different types of study Bibles and archaeology Bibles and youth Bibles and women's Bibles and men's Bibles. And then you look at the Catholic section and there's like three. Okay, well, we don't have a whole lot of choices, but now we're getting more. So I think the more we have, the more resources, the better, right? And the more different angles we can take to look at Scripture, the better. I mean, I do think that one of the most exciting developments in the past couple years, though, has been the advent of the ESV Catholic edition. And the fact that this particular translation, which has been available in the Protestant community since 2001, is now available in a Catholic edition approved by the Indian bishops and by the Vatican. It's really exciting.

A (28:35)

And how long ago was it approved by the Vatican?

B (28:37)

So it was approved for. It was approved in India in 2018, and it was approved for lectionary use by the Vatican in December of 2019. So not even a year ago. And this new translation, it's a revision of the rsv. So you're thinking, well, I thought there was the nrsv. So there was. Right? There was already a revision of the RSV back in 1990, but the NRSV introduced a lot of problematic translations. Some good improvements, but also some problems largely around inclusive language.

A (29:06)

Inclusive language. So the nrsv. So this is one of the challenges And I think this gets to the heart. It's not that there's not more Bible products. People don't mind that. And that's, like you said, that's a good thing. It's for your everyday Catholic. Like, okay, there's I hear about the Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, which is used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. But then there's the New Revised Standard Version. And we're kind of conditioned by technology, by the iPhone and other things that if it's the new version, it's got to be better. But the NRSV was controversial. It wasn't necessarily better, was it?

B (29:35)

Yeah, this is a story that I tell in my book, right, where the NRSV was released in 1990, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church was being released shortly after that. And the translator who was working on it was just using the latest and greatest translation and just putting in all the NRSV quotes. And then when it came time for the Vatican to approve the translation, the Vatican said, this is not workable. The NRSV they declared to be unsuitable for catechetical instruction or for liturgical use. So the US Bishops had planned on doing an NRSV lectionary that got cancelled by the Vatican. And so they ended up using the rsv, which is what we call gender specific. That uses gender specific language in the Catechism. And the NRSV was really sidelined. Although it's true that the Canadian bishops snuck in an NRSV lectionary before the Vatican came down hard. But the Vatican gave them interim approval until they could fix all the problems at nrsv. So they actually released a new edition of it in 2007 that supposedly fixes all of the problems.

C (30:35)

I think it's important just to help people understand some of the language here because you hear things like inclusive language. What does that mean exactly? Let me just explain this in a concrete way. So what a lot of people want to do is make the Bible applicable to as many people as possible. Okay. All of us would agree with that. And in fact, in many cases, the ESV does that too. Right. Where it be a certain. Any man who hears this? Well, it would say anyone who reads this because the Greek is open to that. Right. But there are other passages, for example, in the nrsp, which, by the way, I really like a lot of things in the NRSP. But then you go to Daniel 7, for example, where it talks about one like a son of man. Well, that seemed too masculine or something, so they changed that. So if you read Daniel 7, you don't get one like a son of man. You get one like a human being. But if you're a Catholic and you're reading that, it doesn't connect. You can't really connect that to what Jesus does in the Gospels when he's referring to himself as the son of man coming on the clouds. That's an allusion to this passage. So it's really unfortunate because I do like things about the nrsv. It's so sad that they had to obscure that connection with Jesus language by leaning so hard on trying to be gender inclusive, which actually, I don't think the original author thought this was just a human being. I think the original author thought that Daniel was describing a son of man. That's what he says.

A (32:06)

As we hear this conversation, you can see why people could be confused by Bible translations.

C (32:09)

Right?

A (32:10)

So one of the questions here is, what is the best Bible translation? So here's somebody who's like, and we actually got this question many, many times. It's probably the most frequently asked question is, what is the best Bible translation? So we have, you know, it's like an ice cream shop and we've got all these different flavors. You've got the new American Bible, which the US Bishops Conference uses. You have the RSV Catholic Edition, which a lot of Catholics around the world use. And you have the ESV now, which is used in India for the Bishops Conference. And now it's going to be used in other places around the world, the ESV Catholic edition. So people want to know what's the best Bible translation? And before you give specifics of why, I would just say the most important thing for best. If you have a different. If you have a Bible that you use and you love, that's the best translation. I want a translation that you're going to use. I don't want you to go out and go buy a new Bible that someone recommends because they tell you it's better. And then you don't like the translation. You're like, you miss the old one. Maybe you have a King James Version and you love that one. And you have so many things memorized from a child. I'm not saying give up your old Bible. The best Bible is the one you're going to use all the time. That's the most important thing in my mind. But there's differences in the translations. How do people navigate that?

B (33:28)

Yeah, for me, the priority is always on transparency to the original language. So this is why I would prefer a word for Word translation, rather than what's called a thought for thought translation or a dynamic equivalence translation. It was very popular in the 1960s and 70s and 80s to base translations off of this new linguistic theory about how language works, where you take one idea from a language and then you move it to another language idea by idea, thought for thought.

A (33:54)

But the wording can be very, very different.

B (33:56)

Exactly.

A (33:57)

As long as you get the gist.

B (33:58)

Right. So the Good News Bible is a good example of this. It's very easy to read, right. But it's plain, fast and loose with the language. It's not going word for word at all. Whereas a translation like the ESV is really adopting a very rigorous word for word approach while still retaining a kind of elegant English. You can take the word for word approach too far and end up with what's called the nasb, which is, I mean, just very painful to read.

A (34:24)

It's hard to read. It doesn't read very well.

B (34:26)

Right. And so the esv, I think, is a really good balance of a word for word strategy that is readable and elegant. It really is English.

C (34:35)

Right.

B (34:36)

But they're doing their best to be as transparent as possible to the original language. And that's my priority as a Bible reader. I want to know what it says

A (34:44)

in the Greek and Hebrew. And so you want to. So you think that the ESV Catholic edition is closest to the Hebrew and Greek?

B (34:51)

Yes, I think so. While still being readable English.

A (34:54)

Dr. Barber, what's your opinion?

C (34:55)

I mean, I always say there's no perfect translation. So as a Bible scholar, you always read a translation and say, oh, I would have zigged where they zagged, you know. But overall, when I teach, I'm using the ESV because so frequently you get that faithfulness to the text. Just one example. So people like examples in the letter of the Ephesians, a letter to the Ephesians. In the New Testament, we have this language of walking throughout the Epistle. And in the esv, it sticks very closely to that English word walk, which is a deliberate echo of Jewish teaching. Okay. But in other translations, my old translation I used to teach from was the rsv. It would say live instead of walk. And so you've got walk, walk, and then all of a sudden the walking disappears and it becomes living. And it's the same Greek word. Why did you do that to me? So I prefer, overall, the best one in print, I think, is the esv, even though there are some places like, okay, I might zig where you zag. Overall, I think this is my favorite one.

B (36:04)

Another example, that's one of my favorites. In the ESV, if you go to John chapter 6, where Jesus is giving the bread of life discourse, very famously, a lot of Catholic apologists use this point. Jesus is talking, he's saying, you know, you have to eat of my flesh. And then people object and say, well, how could we eat of your flesh? You know, we're not cannibals. And instead of saying, oh, no, no, no, I'm only speaking symbolically. Jesus actually ups the ante by changing the verb. He says, okay, you have to chew my flesh, right? He uses this other Greek verb, trogo. Well, in most translations, it just says eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat. But in the esv, you'll notice that the verb actually changes there in John 6, from eat to chew or feed on. Feed on, feed on is what it uses. And I think that's a really valuable insight into the original language that you're not going to get from every translation.

A (36:52)

So let me ask another question. I love this conversation about translations. I think what we want to say is that, look, when you look, people asked about the Word on Fire Bible or the Ascension Bible. They're using. They're not new translations. They're using older translations. So Ascension Press is using the RSV Catholic Edition. Right. And the Word on Fire is using the nrsv, the New Revised Version, which is okay for private use, not for public teaching, but it's. And so those aren't new translations, but they're different versions. And I think having many versions is a good thing. And I think we need a lot more. Hopefully more will come. But when it comes to Bible translations, try it on and make sure it's readable for you, you know, and that's going to be really important. But we think that as scholars, we like to be as close to the Hebrew and Greek. My recommendation is read it in the original Hebrew and Greek and you won't go wrong. But after that, I do like the ESV Catholic edition. I know the Augustine who publishes it. So I'm biased now. But Mark will tell you that I used to recommend this before we published the ESV Catholic Edition. I would recommend to students that the ESV was the closest to the Hebrew and Greek.

B (38:04)

So that was in 2005.

A (38:05)

2005.

B (38:06)

And I bought a copy.

A (38:07)

That's right.

B (38:08)

And I was teaching out of it this morning.

A (38:09)

Oh, my goodness. That's great. Oh, my goodness.

B (38:11)

So I've been reading the ESV personally for a long time, for 15 years. And I found it very valuable in my own personal study, in my teaching, but also in helping me learn the original languages.

C (38:23)

And it's really important to note that the ESV Catholic edition was done by Bible scholars too, in India who are Catholic. So there were changes and additions. You know, we have the deuterocanonical books, for example. So it's not just the esv, it's ESV Catholic Edition.

A (38:39)

That's a great point. And just to give the history behind this, the ESV, the English standard version was translated in 2001, and then the Catholic version just came out last year. And, you know, it was done in 2001, which gives it an advantage over the RSV, which was done in the 1950s, because it has the advantage of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like we saw with Tobit. It has the advantage of digital technology, of coordinating, being consistent. And it was an ecumenical group of scholars who put together that translation, and they really did a phenomenal job. And so it's the translation that we really love. And I know what we're going to do. We're going to give a special to everybody who's part of the conference to get a discount if you're looking for a new Bible or you're looking for a Bible. We're going to give you a special that's going to come to you in an email very soon that will give you a discount on the new ESV Catholic edition, the one that we recommend and love. But there's other good ones out there too, like the rsv, which is a good translation, the Catholic edition of the rsv. So in the final minute here, let me just wrap up the questions. I love all the questions that you've asked about Scripture. And I hope that just even thinking about this Bible conference and this day has really fueled your love and your desire to learn more about the sacred Word and Scripture. So I hope that this has encouraged you. I want to thank our panelists. Thank you so much, Dr. Vishek and Dr. Barber, for your talks today, as well as fielding some of these questions. The time goes by so quickly.

C (40:14)

It sure does.

A (40:15)

And I hate that we can't take on more of these wonderful questions that you have. But we're out of time, so I want to conclude right now with our panel discussion and thank you for joining this. And then we'll give a wrap up for the whole conference in the next minute.

B (40:34)

It.