Letting Go of the Pressure To Be Perfect

Summary

Chasing Life: Letting Go of the Pressure To Be Perfect – Detailed Summary

Introduction

In the January 10, 2025 episode of Chasing Life, host Dr. Sanjay Gupta delves into the pervasive issue of perfectionism with guest Dr. Ellen Hendrickson, a clinical psychologist and author. The episode explores the roots of perfectionism, its impact on mental and physical health, and practical strategies to alleviate the relentless pressure to be flawless. Through personal anecdotes, expert insights, and actionable advice, Gupta and Hendrickson aim to guide listeners toward a healthier, more balanced approach to self-improvement.

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Ellen Hendrickson’s Personal Journey

The episode begins with Dr. Hendrickson sharing her personal struggles with perfectionism. She recounts how her drive for perfection led to severe physical ailments, including a gastrointestinal illness, multiple rounds of physical therapy for an overuse injury from excessive typing, and extreme muscle tightness that left her unable to turn her head.

[01:57] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "I developed a GI illness. I went through like five rounds of physical therapy. I had an overuse injury from typing too much. I woke up one morning, and I couldn't turn my head to the right because my muscles were too tight."

These experiences underscored the tangible costs of perfectionism, motivating her to write her book, How to Be Self-Acceptance for Self Critics and How to Be Enough. Hendrickson emphasizes that while perfectionism itself isn't a clinical diagnosis, it is intricately linked to various mental and physical health challenges.

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Understanding Perfectionism

Dr. Hendrickson distinguishes between healthy and maladaptive perfectionism. She explains that while striving for excellence and maintaining high standards can be beneficial, perfectionism becomes detrimental when it leads to excessive self-criticism and an over-evaluation of one’s self-worth based on performance.

[08:00] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Perfectionism can absolutely be good. It can look like striving for excellence, setting high standards, working hard, caring deeply. Those are all great things. Please keep doing those."

However, when perfectionism crosses into harsh self-criticism and a conflation of self-worth with achievements, it becomes maladaptive. Dr. Hendrickson references researchers Roz Shafran, Zephyr Cooper, and Christopher Fairburn from Oxford University, who identify two primary pillars of unhealthy perfectionism:

1. Self-Criticism: A harsh and personal judgment of oneself.
2. Over-Evaluation: Linking self-worth directly to performance outcomes.

[09:00] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Over evaluation is when we start to conflate who we are with what we do. Our performance becomes a referendum on our character."

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Causes and Drivers of Perfectionism

Dr. Hendrickson explores the multifaceted origins of perfectionism, highlighting both intrinsic and extrinsic factors:

1. Genetic Predisposition: Emerging evidence suggests that perfectionism can be heritable.

2. Family Dynamics: Four types of familial environments may increase the likelihood of developing perfectionistic traits:

   • Overly Cautious Families: Similar to the "helicopter" parenting style.
   • Perfectionistic Families: Modeling high-achieving behaviors and over-evaluation.
   • Conditional Love Environments: Where love is contingent upon performance.
   • Chaotic or Unstable Families: Leading children to seek control through performance.

3. Societal Influences: Capitalism, consumerism, and especially social media exacerbate perfectionistic tendencies by perpetuating unrealistic standards and emphasizing constant self-improvement.

[10:27] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Perfectionism is essentially the result of being in an economic system that is hell bent on exceeding human thresholds."

Research cited by Dr. Hendrickson indicates a rising trend in maladaptive perfectionism, with significant increases observed since the advent of social media platforms like Facebook.

[12:50] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Perfectionism is increasing. The socially prescribed perfectionism, where we expect others to be very demanding and critical of us, is increasing like a rocket launch."

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The Impact of Perfectionism

Perfectionism's reach extends deeply into various aspects of life:

• Mental Health: Linked to anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and eating disorders.
• Physical Health: Associated with conditions like migraines, panic attacks, and other stress-related ailments.
• Relationships: Perfectionistic tendencies can strain interpersonal connections, fostering isolation and disconnection.

[14:03] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Perfectionism lies at the heart of a lot of medical and mental health challenges. It also is a really central component of eating disorders, of a lot of kinds of depression, of OCD."

Hendrickson emphasizes that perfectionism often masquerades as striving for excellence, masking a deeper, pervasive feeling of never being "good enough."

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Strategies to Let Go of Perfectionism

Transitioning from understanding to action, Dr. Hendrickson offers several strategies to mitigate the detrimental effects of perfectionism:

1. Cognitive Defusion: Creating psychological distance from self-critical thoughts, recognizing them as mere mental events rather than truths.

   [19:19] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "I can approach self-criticism like the Muzak at the grocery store. It's there, but it's not truth, it's not facts."

2. Self-Compassion: Cultivating a kinder internal dialogue and engaging in compassionate actions, such as deep breathing or taking breaks.

   [21:35] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Self compassion can be actions. It can be one deep breath, it can be asking for help, it can be taking a break."

3. Trusting Others: Learning to delegate and rely on others, reducing the need to control every aspect of one's life.

   [24:37] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "The opposite of control is not being out of control. The opposite of control is trust."

4. Authentic Relationships: Moving away from perfectionistic self-presentation to foster genuine, relatable connections.

   [16:00] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Showing some of the mess signals that we trust others and that we are the same as them."

5. Redefining Values: Shifting focus from performance-based self-worth to intrinsic values like curiosity and learning.

   [22:30] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Shifting from the rule of you have to be smart to the value of learning made the quality of his experience start to shift."

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Advice for Parents Raising Children

Dr. Hendrickson offers guidance for parents aiming to nurture conscientious yet emotionally healthy children:

• Separate Identity from Achievements: Reinforce that a child's worth is not solely based on their accomplishments.

  [25:40] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "Separate a little bit who they are from what they do."

• Unconditional Love: Ensure children understand that love is freely given and not contingent upon their performance or successes.

  [25:40] Dr. Ellen Hendrickson: "I would make it clear that I also love them no matter what... they could fail algebra, they could come in last, and I would still love them with all my heart."

• Modeling Behavior: Demonstrate self-compassion and vulnerability, showing that it's acceptable to have flaws and seek help.

  [26:34] Ellen Hendrickson: "I'd be really curious to hear from... how do they approach that?"

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the balance between striving for excellence and embracing imperfection. Dr. Hendrickson encourages listeners to adopt small, manageable changes towards self-compassion and trust, rather than overhauling their identities overnight.

[27:58] Ellen Hendrickson: "What am I even trying to really accomplish when I'm cleaning? How much of it is necessary for health and how much of this is just a personal preference? And am I wasting time and money? Would I be better off if I did less?"

By challenging the ingrained perfectionistic mindset and implementing the discussed strategies, Gupta and Hendrickson aspire to help listeners "Chase Life" more fully and authentically, free from the paralyzing pressure to be perfect.

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Key Takeaways:

• Perfectionism: A complex trait with both positive and negative aspects; understanding its origins is crucial for managing its impact.
• Self-Criticism and Over-Evaluation: Core components of maladaptive perfectionism that link self-worth to performance.
• Practical Strategies: Cognitive defusion, self-compassion, trusting others, and authentic relationships can alleviate the burdens of perfectionism.
• Parental Guidance: Emphasizing unconditional love and separating identity from achievements fosters healthier development in children.
• Societal Influence: Modern culture, especially social media, amplifies perfectionistic pressures, making awareness and intentionality more important than ever.

By addressing these elements, the episode serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone seeking to overcome the constraints of perfectionism and lead a more fulfilling, balanced life.

Transcript

[Sanjay Gupta]

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[Ellen Hendrickson]

All right, we're already well into January and well, you know what that means.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I'm happier now that I'm skinnier. And here's why.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

If you do these five things, you.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Will win with money.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

1. On a high fat carnivore diet for.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Breakfast I have my coffee with some butter, of course.

[Sanjay Gupta]

I just made the perfect shake for.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

City guys looking to build muscle fast.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Here's why you need two to do lists ahead how that's going to help you get five times the amount of.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Work done in the same amount of time. You know, I've been a health reporter for more than 20 years and I can tell you, just like clockwork, every year it's the same. There is this sudden pressure to buy more. I have taken 10 million supplements and.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Tried them out so you do not.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Have to to do more. It's very much possible to become a millionaire and it's simpler and easier than you think to lose more. Here's how to lose your love handles. As a skinny fat man, you need.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

To start implementing these two exercises in.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Your workout routine asap. There's a lot of bold claims out there. And frankly, making bold claims, setting goals, that's kind of the easy part. It's the follow through that's another matter altogether. It's part of what I want to talk about this year. We know that New Year's resolutions are hard to keep. Surveys will show that most eventually fail. But here's the thing I want to tell you. When we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, failure isn't actually even the worst case scenario.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I developed a GI illness. I went through like five rounds of physical therapy. I had an overuse injury from typing too much. I woke up one morning and I couldn't turn my head to the right because my muscles were too tight.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

That's Dr. Ellen Hendrickson. She's a clinical psychologist. She's an author, and she's a recovering perfectionist as she describes herself. I was frankly pretty floored when Ellen told me the symptoms you just heard were in fact her body's response to the pressure she put on herself to be perfect. And Ellen's story got me thinking. What if the solution isn't to set more goals and to make these bold proclamations for ourselves? What if we got really comfortable with simply doing less? So I've decided to take a slightly different approach. At the beginning of the new year, instead of talking about New Year's resolutions, think of these. Stick with me here, but think of these almost as a series of anti resolutions. Think of these as a guide to learning to let go from tackling perfectionism.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Capitalism, consumerism, social media. Perfectionism is essentially the result of being in an economic system that is hell bent on exceeding human thresholds to actually.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Finding the beauty in boredom. One of my students came back from a conference and she told me that someone had gone past her poster and said, oh, he's the father of boredom. Not sure I want to be known as that. This is a journey that's led me to some pretty unexpected places, but now we're on it together. You're along for the ride, so I hope you're ready to ring in the new year by maybe committing to doing less. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and this is chasing life. When I set out to explore new ways to approach the New year, I knew the first person I wanted to talk to. Someone that could help us get in the right mindset for this idea of not necessarily doing more, but in fact starting to get comfortable letting go.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Traditionally, New Year's resolutions and the new year has been about self improvement, but I think it doesn't have to be simply that. I think expanding our expectations of what it means to be, quote, unquote better can be really powerful.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Ellen has been on the podcast before. She is a clinical psychologist at Boston University center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. She recently wrote a new book. It has this title, how to be Self Acceptance for Self Critics and How to Be Enough. To me, addressing the pressure to be perfect felt like the natural first stop in our journey together.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I wrote this book for me because I have come from a long line of people with perfectionism and there is a saying for self help book authors, which is write the book you need. So I did write it for me, but so as a clinical psychologist at an anxiety specialty center, I also wrote the book for everybody else like me because what happens Is that I would say most of my clients come in with perfectionism at the center of the overlapping Venn diagram of their challenges. But nobody ever says, ellen, I'm a perfectionist. I need everything to be perfect. Nobody ever says that. Instead, what they say is, I feel like I'm failing. I feel like I'm falling behind. I should be so much farther ahead than I am now. I have a million things on my plate, and I'm not doing any of them well. And ultimately, I think that's because perfectionism is a little bit of a misnomer, that instead of striving to be perfect, it's really about never feeling good enough.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

What was it that was going on in your life that made you write this book?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Sure. Well, I mean, I'll be really honest. I burned out. There's a perfectionism researcher named Martin Smith who finds that most people, as they age, mellow out. But for with people with perfectionism, something different happens, and that's kind of the wheels start to come off. So we burn out. We might lose relationships. We might struggle with our mental health. And so for me, it manifested physically. So I developed a GI illness. I went through, like, five rounds of physical therapy. I had an overuse injury from typing too much. I woke up one morning, and I couldn't turn my head to the right because my muscles were too tight. So that's how it manifested for me. But for a lot of folks who come to the clinic, it might look like marital troubles. It might look like realizing all the friends have drifted away because they've had their nose to the grindstone for so long. It could be depression. It could be just simply this low rumble undercurrent of feeling like a failure. So it was time for me to write that book.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

I think. Being a perfectionist, obviously, is not a medical diagnosis.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Correct.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

But are there certain qualities from a medical standpoint that perfectionists have in common?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Perfectionism lies at the heart of a lot of medical and mental health challenges, and it also is a really central component of eating disorders, of a lot of kinds of depression, of ocd. And it even, I say, like, kind of reaches its tendrils into things that we might not even intuitively think about, like migraines, like erectile dysfunction, like panic attacks. So it often lies at the center of the overlapping Venn diagram of many folks challenges.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Is perfectionism a bad thing? Someone comes in and says, I'm a perfectionist. Are you looking at them as somebody who may come to you as a patient, as a bad thing? Good thing, how do you approach it?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

So perfectionism can absolutely be good. And there may be some researchers out there who disagree with me, but there are others who absolutely agree with me, because it can look like striving for excellence, for the sake of excellence, for setting high standards, working hard, caring deeply. Those are all great things. Please keep doing those. And in fact, there is a personality trait called conscientiousness, which is the healthy heart of perfectionism. And conscientiousness is the tendency to do things well and thoroughly, to be diligent, to be responsible. I like to say it's the least sexy superpower, but it's definitely, in terms of personality traits, the one to choose for both objective and subjective success in life. So perfectionism can definitely work for us. Where it tips over into being unhealthy is. Now this is the work of doctors Roz Shafrin Zephyr Cooper and Christopher Fairburn when they were colleagues at Oxford University. So it tips over into having two kind of pillars. And one is self criticism, in that, you know, needs no definition. But in perfectionistic, self criticism is particularly harsh and personalistic. And then there's another pillar that was a new concept for me, so might be new for some of your listeners, which is called over evaluation. And that is when we start to conflate who we are with what we do. So our performance becomes a referendum on our character. So, like, excuse my grammar, but it's when I did good equals I am good, or I did bad equals I am bad. So examples might be a striver student who defines themselves by their grades, or an employee who looks at their quarterly evaluation not just as evaluation of their work, but a referendum on them. Or the athlete who's only as good as their last game, or the musician who's only as good as their last performance. We can overevaluate anything. Or our reflection in the mirror, or the number on the scale, whether or not we think we were a good parent that day, it's when we conflate our worth with our performance.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

What do you think is driving perfectionism? I mean, what's at the core of it? If you sort of go deep into this.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Yeah. So it comes from both within and from all around us. So in terms of within, there is beginning to be some evidence that perfectionism is heritable, is genetic, so it can definitely be passed along. It does come from our families of origin. I do want to say that you can come out of any kind of family being perfectionistic. But there have been identified four particular kinds of Families that are maybe that, I don't even want to say, higher risk, higher likelihood of being perfectionistic. The kind of overly cautious rule following sort of the marlin from Finding Nemo, like being, being a little bit helicoptery. So that's, that's one type. Another type is just perfectionistic families. If we model, you know, hard driving, high achieving, over evaluating behavior to our kids, then you know, certainly they're going to pick up on that. The third is where love is contingent upon performance. So that's where love and pride get sort of conflated. So love is a freely given emotion, whereas pride is earned. And so in the families that really kind of only notice you when you achieve something, as opposed to when you feel deeply or are curious. And then the fourth type is sort of a chaotic, unstable family where kids will therefore like double down on performance in order to have some control in a chaotic environment. And perfectionism comes from all around us, especially in a post pandemic culture, western culture that we're in, capitalism, consumerism, social media. The perfectionism researcher Thomas Curran, I'm going to paraphrase this, says that perfectionism is essentially the result of being in an economic system that is hell bent on exceeding human thresholds. You know, we're not machines and so it's impossible to achieve perfection. We're going to have human error. I think it's called that for a reason. And so maybe we'll have a backlash, but I wish I had a crystal ball.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

When you think of it that way and you think of the society in which we live, are we on a trajectory towards more people trying to be perfectionists?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Likely, yeah. The researchers Gordon Flett and Paul Hewitt have found that one in three young people have some form of clearly maladaptive perfectionism. Doctors Thomas Kern and Andrew Hill looked at 27 years of data and found that perfectionism is increasing. There are three kinds. There's self oriented perfectionism, which is when we're hard on ourselves. There's other oriented perfectionism when we're hard on other people and, and then there is socially prescribed perfectionism where we expect others to be hard on us. And all three are increasing. But the last one, the socially prescribed perfectionism, where we expect other people to be very demanding and critical of us, is increasing like a rocket launch. And I think it is significant that the inflection point happened around 2005, which happens to be the year that Facebook was introduced to all of us.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

You've used this word maladaptive a couple of times and you said self critical. You're overly self critical. But how do you know when your perfectionism has become maladaptive or you're overly self critical?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

So one is that it becomes a problem in our relationships. So perfectionism is interpersonally motivated, meaning it's, it ultimately is trying to help us belong to the tribe, but it really guides us down the wrong path to get there. It tells us the lie that we have to perform as superbly as possible to get people to like us. But, you know, think about why your friends are your friends. You know, are you friends with them because they're good at things? Like, do you like them because they're, you know, skilled at conversation? Or like they always pick a good restaurant? Or because they always remember your birthday? You know, none of those things are bad. Again, please keep doing that. But guessing that is not why you like them. Like, more likely you're friends with your friends because of how they make you feel. Like connected, supported, understood, like you can be yourself. And so the lie of perfectionism is that we have to double down on performance in order to earn our way into belonging rather than focusing on connecting and enjoying each other.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Let's just double click on that. I want everyone to hear that again because I think that's. When I read the book, I think this is the thing that really jumped out at me. And I think again, to remind my girls, some of them who have some of the traits that you're describing, professor, that, hey, look, remember why your friends like you remember that those silly times, those, those classically imperfect times are the things that probably they remember the most and probably bond the friendship and the relationships even stronger. I think it's a really important point.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Yeah. And I think sometimes if we feel pulled to perform, like perform being a good friend or perform being a good person so that we can be part of the group, we end up doing something called perfectionistic self presentation. And that is when we only show what's going well and we hide what's going poorly. And you know, it makes sense. I see what we're doing. We're trying to keep ourselves socially safe by putting our best foot forward, by hiding the mess. But then what happens is we come across as superhuman or unrelatable or intimidating. And that actually keeps us isolated and disconnected. Because if we do show some of the mess, it signals two things to the people around us. It signals, I trust you, I trust you to see some of the mess and to not judge or reject me for it. And it also sends the message of we are the same. If we're doing perfectionistic self presentation and we come off as intimidating. Sometimes that can give the vibe of this is a mentor mentee relationship or this is a teacher student relationship. Whereas if we are vulnerable and show people some of what we're struggling with, or we ask for help or we disclose some challenges, that signals that we are the same. I'm like you. And then friendships are equal. Equal relationships, they're not hierarchical.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Show more of the mess. Think about that. I actually love that for the new year. More in just a moment.

[Sanjay Gupta]

This podcast is supported by Sleep Number There's a reason the Sleep Number Smart bed is the number one bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side, Sleep Number does that one side cooler and the other side warmer. Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Only Sleep Number Smart beds let you choose your ideal comfort and support your Sleep Number setting. Sleep Number Smart beds learn how you sleep and provide personalized insights to help you sleep better. The new Sleep Number climate Cool Smart Bed lets you adjust up to 15 degrees cooler on either side. It's perfect for couples who struggle with sleeping too hot. Sleep better together. Why choose a Sleep Number Smart bed so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now it's the lowest price of the season on our top selling i8 smart bed. Your best savings plus special financing limited time. Shop a Sleep Number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

This week on the Assignment with me, Adi Cornish. Joshua Coleman is a psychologist with a very specific therapy focus People who cut ties with their family.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

It's a very tragic moment that we're in.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Why some people are putting politics over family and what to do if you find yourself on either side of an estrangement. Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast. Applause.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Welcome back to Chasing Life. I have to admit that it took a little getting used to, but what Alan had to say did resonate with me and I started to wonder for myself. If the world makes us learn to strive for perfection, treats it as a really worthy aspiration, then is it possible to unlearn or is it just the way we are?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

So self criticism is hardwired. We're never going to totally stop. So just like some brains are more optimistic or pessimistic, you know, some brains are just wired to be a little bit more self critical. I have one of those brains, but I've realized That I don't have to actually listen to the self criticism. I can approach it kind of like I approach the music at a coffee shop, or I can approach it like the, you know, the Muzak that gets played over the speakers at the grocery store. It's there, I can hear it. But it's not truth, it's not facts. I don't have to listen to it and take it so seriously and literally. So this is one of a million ways of doing a technique called cognitive defusion, which is essentially just getting some distance from the content of our thoughts. That this is just going through your head and you don't have to get yanked around by it or tangled up in it.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

You, you use this word hardwired. Does it make a difference? I mean, in terms of these strategies, for example, are they more likely to work if this is a sort of taught or learned behavior versus something that is just part of your nature?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I take the subtitle of the book really literally, Self acceptance for self critics and perfectionists, implying that we don't actually really have to change that much, that we can simply accept. Not like in a resigned way like, oh, I guess this is how it's going to be, but like truly accept, like this is how our brains are. And we can again change that relationship to the self criticism. So I know that I'm genetically predisposed and you know, probably I live in the world, so probably I come by perfectionism honestly because it's all around me. I have also learned to go against my nature when it comes to self compassion. So when I first learned about self compassion, I learned that it was talking to yourself like a good friend. But then my perfectionistic brain thought that I needed to feed myself this steady stream of articulate self compassionate hype. And that was way too high a bar. So since then I've learned.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

You tried to be perfectionist.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I know, it was ridiculous. Yes, and I fully own this. So since then, luckily I have learned that self compassion can be way easier. It can be one word, it can be easy, gentle, it can be you're okay. And even easier than that is self compassion can be actions. Like it's, it's. We can't really control our thoughts, we can't really control our feelings, but we can control our actions. And so their self compassion can be a hand on your heart. It can be one deep breath, it can be asking for help, it can be taking a break, it can be taking time to read a novel before bed, even just being 5% less hard on ourselves. 10% kinder to ourselves can make all the difference. And honestly, we might not end up doing anything differently on the surface. So, for example, I had this client who we'll call Carter, and he was a college freshman, and he, all his life had been labeled smart by his parents, his teachers. And so this was really important to him to maintain this label of smart. It was kind of like a rule that he had to be smart. And so he said to me, you know, okay, if I'm smart, there are certain things I have to do that means I have to study for a long time. I have to study for at least like, three hours a day. I cannot ask stupid questions that make me look like I don't know what I'm doing. And so we tried to get him to shift from the rule of you have to be smart to the value of learning. And then that made the quality of his experience start to shift, because it wasn't, you have to do these things in order to maintain being smart. You should, you have to, you must. It was, I'm interested in learning this material. I freely choose to be curious about this. And nothing really changed. On the surface. He still studied for a long time. He still studied for, like, three hours a day. But the quality of what was underneath it, what was driving that, was entirely different because it was freely chosen. So nothing much had to change. Just under the hood, a couple of tweaks.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Information instead of evaluation.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Correct.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

As a neurosurgeon, you do tend to be a micromanager. You can't leave anything to chance if you're. If you're doing brain surgery. And I remember the first time when I was working on something as a journalist, to be able to let go a little bit and say, hey, these people know what they're doing. And while I don't fundamentally get it right now, like, I also recognize that I'm working with professionals who are really good at what they do. And to. To. To be able to have that dialogue with yourself, I think, is it.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

It.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

It helped me. I mean, my situation is. Is a bit unique, but I think there. I think it. It extends to. To really anybody in their life.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Oh, absolutely. The opposite of control is not being out of control. The opposite of control is trust. And I think that those of us with some perfectionism might tend to try to double down on control in order to avoid mistakes, to keep our higher, rigid standards. But really, if we can learn to trust the people around us, that. That not only will connect us to them, but we'll just make Everything go better because now we have multiple brains on it. And. Yeah, on a, you know, on a neurosurgery team, like, I think trusting those people to. To do what they're good at, to do what they're trained at, will ultimately benefit us all.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Well, so I want to raise kids who are lovely children, but they're driven, they're conscientious, they recognize that we only have one life to live. So, you know, don't sit on the sidelines. Give it your all. But at the same time, I don't want to push them too hard, and I certainly don't want to push them to maladaptive perfectionism. What's. What's the guidance? What's the advice?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Well, I think it's fair, fundamentally, is to separate a little bit, you know, who they are from what they do to you. I think here, this gets into the difference between love and pride. And so, you know, pride is earned. You know, that is something that. That comes in response to performance, good performance. But love is freely given, you know, and so if I'm complimenting my kid because of the good grade or, you know, something they achieved, I'll make it clear that, like, I also love them no matter what, that they could fail algebra, they could come in last, and I would still love them with all my heart. So I think that that difference. We wouldn't think that kids needed to be told that we would love them no matter what. But I think it. They. Even if they know it, they still want to hear it.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

One thing, one thing I will say with humility, because you're the expert. I'm just, you know, I'm a guy just trying to make my way in the world.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Um, I'm right there with you. I'm. I'm on. I'm on the same journey as my readers. Let me just tell you.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

I find when I say I don't know, I don't know the answer to something, it actually goes much further towards engendering trust with somebody than you would think. I think it really goes a long way. I'd be really curious to hear from some of the people who are listening right now. You are vulnerable with your kid. You'd say that, hey, I'm not, you know, I've screwed this up. Or. Or I'm.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

I'm. I'm.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

I'm not achieving at the level I wanted to achieve. Do you worry that that may cause your kid to look at you differently and say, hey, I, you know, you're not that great or whatever, or Is it more likely to, to create a stronger bond, to create more trust? But I'd be really curious, anyone listening to this, like, how do they, how do they approach that? One thing I would say again with humility is that whatever it is, you have to be sincere about it. And I do think there's a key there. Happy New Year.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Happy New Year.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Thanks so much for joining us again. I'd love to have you back. I always get great tips and great advice and I thank you. My wife thanks you and my daughters thank you as well.

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

Oh, that's so kind. I'm tickled. I'm so glad that I've been helpful. That's the goal.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Well, that's it for today's show. Stay tuned for more approaches to doing less in the new year. It got me thinking, what, what am I even trying to really accomplish when I'm cleaning?

[Dr. Ellen Hendrickson]

So it just got me thinking, what.

[Ellen Hendrickson]

Is this all for? How much of it is necessary for health and how much of this is just a personal preference? And am I wasting time and money? Would I be better off if I did less? That's coming up on a future episode of Chasing Life. Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Aaron Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker and Jesse Remedios. Andrea Cain is our medical writer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Amanda Seeley is our showrunner. Dan Dezulla is our technical director. And the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Lichti with support from Jamis Andrest, John Dionora, Hailey Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Lainey Steinhardt, Nicole Pessarou and Lisa Namorow. Special thanks to Ben Tinker and Nadia Kanang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.

[Sanjay Gupta]

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