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How many times have you thought to yourself, I want to remember something and then you forgot it almost immediately. And maybe it's a name, it's a fact, or maybe even it's why you walked into a room. This probably sounds familiar. It happens to all of us. It happens to me. We live at a time when our attention is pulled in every direction, and that's a fundamental problem. What happens instead is that a lot of people start to assume they are just bad with names. They can't focus, or maybe they're not fast learners. But what you want to remember is that memory, focus and learning are not fixed traits. These are skills. And like any skill, they can be trained. That should be deeply inspiring to anybody listening. And my guest today knows this better than anyone. Nelson Deles is a six time US Memory champion who not only trained his brain to work better, but he also wrote about it for his new book called Everyday Genius. So today we're going to do a deep dive into how memory actually works, how to improve it, and then how to focus and even learn better in a world that's full of distractions. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and this is Chasing Life.
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This episode is brought to you by Google Health. Stop chasing someone else's definition of health. What matters is what's healthy for you. Google Health offers a new kind of coach built with Gemini for effortless tracking, sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you. Visit googlestore.com to learn more and start a new relationship with your health. Requires Google Account, Google Health App Internet and Google Health Premium subscription. Features subject to change. Availability and results vary. Not intended for medical purposes. Works independently of Gemini apps. Check responses for accuracy. Study and play come together on a
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Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game. Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka mscollegepc. Your memory is at another level. It's sort of superhuman memory and this is something I think about a lot. But you were not born this way. I mean, this was something that you were able to develop. What do you think the message is then to anyone who's listening?
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Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I wasn't born with an amazing memory. That's often the assumption people have that I just had this gift, but I only worked on my memory in my mid-20s. I only got interested in it because of my grandmother and her situation with Alzheimer's. But, you know, the message is that everybody, no matter where you are in life, what you think your memory currently is capable of, we all can transform our brain, our memory, our minds. There's so much potential there. And I don't. I don't think a lot of people realize that.
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Just to put an exclamation mark, I'm gonna embarrass you for a second. But for reference, Nelson has memorized the Most names in 15 minutes. That was 235 names. The most words in 15 minutes. 255 words. I mean, that's just some of it. Ken, I'm blown away when I think about this. And when you and I spent time together, you walked me through this memory palace. And it's funny, I think that was several years ago. I don't even remember how many years ago, but I do remember that palace, and I do remember remembering all the presidents by actually walking around the room and assigning those presidents to things in the room. You know, I have a good memory, but the idea that I was able to remember that many things that quickly was pretty stunning to me. And I think anybody who wants to do that should read your work and read your books and things like that, because it is possible. You're an athlete. Do you approach memory like you do your physical endeavors?
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B
I do. I think that's what maybe sets me apart from others who have dabbled in the sport and even in the memory coaching that I do now, I always approach it with my clients as, like, how can we train this? As if it were essentially a muscle. Setting goals for yourself, pushing the limits, trying to understand how to break around these barriers. And the mind is. And memory is just like any other skill that you can learn, and it's not a fixed thing.
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I imagine when you're starting to coach somebody, you probably have to dispel with some misconceptions to start. And maybe that's what you're doing right now. This idea that it is like a muscle, it can be trained that way. Poor memory is often something that, if you really dig down, is attributable to distraction, to lack of attention for people. But how do you start? When somebody comes to you for memory coaching, where do you begin?
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A big part of it is trying to erase this label that people so easily attach to themselves in their own memory. It's very Common that you meet people who are just like, I'm a goldfish, I have a terrible memory, I'm terrible with names. And they've just fixated that idea onto themselves. So educating them that this is actually something you can work on is another part of that first step. And I try to give them little quick wins, do little exercises where they'd be like, oh, I didn't think I could memorize that. And lo and behold, I did. Just by Nelson walking me through this very seemingly easy exercise.
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A
Yeah, it is interesting. So we've been talking about the memory palace. For people who don't know what that is, aren't familiar with it. Can you just, in a few sentences, describe what you mean?
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B
Sure. So it dates back thousands of years. This is a technique in some shape or form that, you know, ancient civilizations would use to remember the things that propelled their knowledge forward by generation. And what they did is they attached associations or imagery for the things they wanted to remember to actual locations that they could visualize or that they were familiar with in their mind. So translate that to modern day. What is a memory palace? Well, you can imagine your home, for example. You know, it's not a palace, or maybe it is, I don't know. But it's a place that you know very well. If I asked you to close your eyes and walk from the front, front door to your bedroom in your mind, that's easy. It's not like you sat down and memorized it. You just know it because you live there and you go through it hundreds and hundreds of times in a year. And so we can use these familiar places to, as a piggyback, to store information. And so when I'm memorizing cards, I'm choosing a memory palace. I'm looking at the first few cards and turning them into pictures and attaching it or imagining it at the first location of this memory palace. And then I go in my mind to the next place in the memory palace, which after I walk in the door, maybe it's the entryway to my house or apartment, and I put the next images and so on, and you can create this pathway through this structure. And then when you want to recall the information, all you have to do is think back to the place and walk back through it again and pick out the images that you laid there. It sounds like a lot of work, but it's one of these things that when you try it, you see how natural it feels to think that way.
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And do you use that like in your regular everyday life? I mean, A competition's one thing, but let's say you're at a cocktail party and you're meeting, you know, 20, 30 people people. Could you use a memory palace or what's your technique to remember 20 new people, for example?
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B
Yeah. So strategy is the same. The memory palace component of it looks a little different, and I'll explain why. So if you think about, you know, memorizing a list of words, let's say, and placing them in a memory palace, when you're going to recall them, you probably are going to need to go back through them and pick them out, right? You have 20, 30 words, whatever. I want to be able to make sure that I hit all those words, whether it's a grocery list or a to do list, but with names, you know, you're meeting people all the time. Let's say you're at this cocktail party, there's 30 people there. What percentage of them are you actually going to ever see again? Depends on the situation, right? So to say that I'm going to store everybody's an image for everybody's name that I meet in a memory palace that stores sequentially the next person and the next person the next person first. How big is your memory palace? Like, it's going to be really hard to create an infinitely large memory palace to store every person you ever meet. And then secondly, you're maybe wasting space on people that you're actually never going to meet in your life. But you don't know that. Right? So the idea is that instead of building this structure, what you can do is make kind of a mini memory palace where you take the person themselves as the anchor. So just like in a memory palace, you might attach things to the door and then the EntryWay and the TV and so on. You can use the person as the. The storage device. And so what I typically tell people is when you're meeting someone, you know, you have the name that's going to be turned into an image. So what does it remind you of? What does it sound like? Is there somebody you know with that name? Can you picture that? And then attach it to a feature that is on the person and that's the anchor? That's similar to the memory palace component where you attach it to a location. And the idea is that, you know, next time you see this person, whether they show up in your life again or not, you're going to see that notable feature that you made a point to stress, and the attachment of that image to it will remind you of the name. If you do this whole thing in a memorable way.
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You know, we live in a, in a highly technological world. You know, everyone's got their phones close by. AI, AI can not only find things for you, but can construct things. You can be generative, you know, And I mean this in the. I honestly don't know how to think about this. But like, is memory going to be as important, do you think, 50, 100 years from now as it is today?
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B
Yeah. I wonder about that and how people will use their memories in the future. And honestly, it scares me. I think that we're at a point now where at least we still have the choice to do a lot of things with our mind. But yes, there are many opportunities to defer our thinking to these devices. We don't have to use our memories like we once had to. Right. Think of all the numbers you probably knew as a kid. And I'm doing this, you're probably thinking this right on the rotary even. But we all have these numbers.
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You're right.
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B
Sorry, I don't mean to aid you there.
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No, no. I grew up with a rotary phone and we memorized phone numbers. And the other day it was interesting. And I don't know if I'm embarrassed to even admit this, but I have three daughter and their phone numbers are in my speed dial. Someone asked me, did you know them? No. Someone asked me the other day and I got it wrong. I got the first, you know, I got the, obviously the area code and the first three numbers, but then I transposed the last two numbers and then, you know, and part of me thought, is this bad? I mean, I can still contact her. I guess people say, well, you lose your phone, how are you going to get ahold of her? And stuff like, I mean, you know, defining the value of something by all potential worst case scenarios, I don't think is probably the right approach, but go ahead. I cut you off. In some ways, this is a question about the importance of memory.
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Yeah. And what I was going towards is that I think it's a very human ability to remember things. Right. Obviously, memorizing a phone number isn't that deep. But think about how we share memories with others and loved ones and make meaning out of our lives and connections with people. That's all based on memory. Right. It's. I think personally, maybe I'm biased, but I think it's the most human thing out there that our brain does. And so from that standpoint, if we are no longer using our memories or training our memories by doing actual memory exercises in our day memorizing little things like numbers and lists and facts that we now just pull out of thin air from our phones. Where will that leave our memories in 50 to 100 years? Some might say that's not important, but I think that's very important. When I memorize something and I hold it in my mind, something that's important to me, whether it's a life memory or, you know, a fact that tickles my mind, that's interesting. And I've owned that, and I can say it and. Or a poem, right, that I've spent time learning and feeling and really connecting with maybe the author, trying to understand what they said. Like, once I get that in my mind, it's in me. It's in my soul. And there's a really strong connection to that information that you can't get if it's outside of the brain. And the more that happens, just what's left, you know?
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Up next, a chance to practice your memory with Nelson Dellis and with me. We'll be right back. Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready because Quaker's
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whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next Quaker official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26. Oh, let's go.
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A
I find it interesting to just leave aside memorizing things like decks of cards or numbers or even names and faces. But like you said, now you go through your day and you've had this wonderful day, and you want to remember this day. You want to store it in your memory banks. What you remember of that day is probably so influenced by your mood that day, by, you know, the feeling that something gave you as opposed to something that's very concrete and tangible, you know, and memory seems so fungible in this regard. I mean, my wife and I may have the exact same experience. We're driving along, we're having the same day, essentially. And what her memory of that day is at the end of the day versus what my memory Is. Could be substantially different. I mean, you know, the big blocks are. Right. We went to the store, we did this. But other things. How fungible is memory in that regard?
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It reminds me of I was having a podcast with somebody else who was telling me that he has this really strong memory of when he was with his dad, and they were very high, they were smoking, he was much younger, and there was the most beautiful sunset. And he remembered to himself thinking, I really want to remember this sunset. This is the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen in my life. And now when he thinks back on the memory, he remembers, like, saying that not the actual sunset itself, but the actual perceiving of the light and all that maybe isn't what's in his memory. It's the feeling. And, you know, that he was maybe high with his dad, right? Which is more of, like, a bonding thing and like a silly memory. Those are the kinds of things that we actually remember, right? I mean, it's not so much about the detail of what is all around you, although that adds to what you store. But it's usually when you think of a memory, it comes down to, like, a small bit of information, a small feeling. The nice thing about training your memory is you start to develop this relationship with your brain and your memory, and you understand what sticks, what doesn't, how to make things stick. And that translates to your life, how to make your life more memorable. I think everybody wants to have a memorable life, right? One that you think back on and smile and feel full, like, satiated by, right? Because you have a lot of memories. Even if you did a lot of things and you don't remember any of it, your life might feel empty because you don't remember any of it. So what's there to pull on? So I think there's that argument for working on your memory, because it will translate to keeping your. Your memories alive and appreciating the moments in which these memories can develop. So I just find it so important that people value their memories just to hold on to their lives more.
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In some ways, I think this brings us back to the discussion of what got you interested in this in the first place, which was your grandmother and Alzheimer's disease. And, you know, again, this is something I've struggled with, and I'm a neuroscientist, but this notion that with somebody who develops dementia like that and does not remember things that we think they should remember, even the names of their loved ones and things like that, I think we assign an inherently sad sort of Circumstance to them. We think that that is sad because they're not remembering things. And I don't know, that sounds right to me, but it's very hard to get in someone's mind as well and understand what they are actually thinking in those moments where they're not remembering things we think they should remember. But I think the question I'm sure you have asked yourself is as someone now who has done so much work on your memory, does that buffer you, do you think, against potentially developing dementia later in life?
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Yeah. And you know, that's the reason I really got so deep into memory training is because I watched my grandmother forget her life. I mean, she was the storyteller of the family. She would, I'd sit and listen to her talk about my dad and funny stories when he was a kid and she always had a great way of painting those pictures for us. And then she couldn't and she didn't and she had nothing to say and she would forget who I was. And it was such a bizarre thing to see and sad and amazing to watch this powerful brain just become empty, you know. But does it protect what will eventually happen to my mind? I think so. Maybe you'd be in a better position to answer that from a health perspective. But I have to think that the way I've treated my brain, the tools that I've built it, the cognitive reserves that, that I've created, will last me till the end of my life. And whether I'm due to get Alzheimer's at some point, you know, maybe it's going to be pushed later because I don't know, I always think that if there's some version of me that's, you know, 85, I'd have to say that the 85 year old Nelson memory champion would have the tools to be a little more with it, have a better, sharper memory.
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Look, I think you're right and I only hesitate because I think some of these things are not yet fully known. But I do think the idea of cognitive reserve, cognitive resilience probably plays a significant role. We know in terms of lifestyle changes. There's been data that's just emerged over the last five to ten years showing that not only can you stall the dementia, the progression of dementia, but you can actually reverse it in some cases. I don't want to overstate that, but. But that was wildly inspirational. I think for a lot of neuroscientists to actually see objective changes in the brain, meaning growth of areas like the hippocampus, which is in large Part associated with memory, but also doing better on cognitive exams, like someone who actually had dementia to actually improve that. And I have to believe that. And this was without medications or drugs, this was just lifestyle changes, including lots of what they called brain training, which is what I think you're referring to as well.
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Yeah. And it's not just memory training. That's maybe just one thing that I particularly like to do because I'm into memory sports. So that's my mental training. It just so happens that it also enhances memory beyond the average person. But I think generally doing some kind of difficult or challenging or continuously challenging exercise with the mind is really what is probably making the long lasting changes for my brain. Right.
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What techniques besides putting your phone in the other room do you use to get into a deep state of focus?
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So one thing I like to do is just do what I call like a brain dump. So I'll. You can do this on a piece of paper, you can type it out, whatever. But I truly, before I try to sit down and do something that I really need to make progress on, I'll spend five minutes just writing out free stream of thoughts on paper just to get any idea, any things that are on my mind on the tip of my tongue I'm struggling with. It could be personal things, it could be work related. It doesn't matter. Whatever comes in my mind, I'm writing it down. You know, what that usually leaves me with is kind of this empty,
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clutter,
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free brain space that lets me now, okay, I've got that out of my system. I can work at this. That helps a lot. Another thing I do is I'll set a timer for 25 minute sessions. This is called the Pomodoro technique. You can set a timer for 25 minutes. Why 25 minutes? Because 25 minutes is some block of time that's reasonable, that's not too long to intensely focus on something without doing anything else. Right. And what you do is, you know, you do 25 minutes. You can take a five minute break doing something mindless, come back and do another session, and then Repeat this for 3, 4 sessions, depending how much time you have and what you're trying to do. And then you can take a longer break and you can stack these. Right. And I find them super helpful, especially in this day and age where, you know, I have, I have kids constantly running down here to ask me to do this. Or I do have a bunch of calls and things that I need to do. So having these short spurts that are meaningful lengths of time. Still, I can get a lot done in 25 minutes if I focus on the one thing are super helpful for me.
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A
We have a small memory trick right now that maybe people who are listening can try for themselves as well. And this is an interesting one, one that you know well, but I hadn't really thought about this ever. But it's basically memorizing the Alphabet backwards.
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Yeah. You want me to walk you through it?
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Yeah. Can you just talk us through this? So. And people at home, maybe as Nelson's talking us through this, just start thinking about this yourself. Memorizing the Alphabet backwards.
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B
It's a fun little party trick. And it's a little example as I'll share to learn it very quickly using memory techniques. And so we mentioned the memory palace. But there's also an even simpler way to go about memorizing things if you don't care too much about building your memory palace or having this kind of endless possibility for a sequence of things. And it's a story method, so we remember stories really well. So you can connect pictures of things via a story to help you remember, you know, a short sequence of things. So perfect for an Alphabet. Now, there's 26 letters in the Alphabet. That's a lot of things. So what we can do is something else called chunking, where we can group meaningful patterns in chunks so that there are less things to memorize. So if you follow along with me for this story, have the Alphabet memorized. Okay. So, and again, picture. Imagine this is the key root of memorizing better is to have these intense visuals. So really take a moment to visualize what I'm about to tell you in your mind with the colors, the sounds, the feelings, the actions, all these things kind of enhance it. So I want you to start by picturing that you're at a beach and there are these six waves crashing over. You're in Hawaii. It's a beautiful sunny day, and you can see these massive six cresting, curling waves coming at you. All right, so six waves, and as they come crashing down on the shore, you can imagine that it's actually the shoreline is the shape of the former ussr. Okay. But it's kind of like a discounted one. It's not quite exactly the USSR you're familiar with, like, all of Russia, but it's the. So since it's a knockoff, it's actually utsr, not the ussr. Okay. And again, because it's a discounted version of it, there's like a little dangly kind of sale coupon Code coupon sales price thing dangling off the edge of this. This coastline. Okay? And that's to help you remember coupon, Q, P, O, N. Okay. My wife gives me a hard time because she says it's coupon instead of coupon, but I say coupon, whatever. All right, so this is part of the story so far. So we have these waves, these six waves that come crashing on the shore. And it's the utsr, but it's a discount one, so there's a coupon involved. Okay. Then out of nowhere comes out a milk jug. So, like your former carton or carton of milk doing a jig, a funny old dancing jig. All right, so the milk is mlk and then the jig is. It's a little taking liberties here, but it's J, I, H, G. So jig with a little thrown in H there, silent H. So the milk is doing a jig on the beach there. All right? And then finally this milk jug stops dancing and feeds or fed a cab. There's a taxi cab there with the letter A on it. All right? And so it's just feeding it something with a spoon and this cab just munches it up. It's so bizarre. I know. Okay, but again, we have the six waves that crash on the utsr, not the ussr that has a coupon code. Then the milk jug comes in doing a jig, right? And then it fed, fed the cab, which had the letter A on it. Cab is the cb If I cib keb keb A. All right. And so just to recap everything, the six waves is to help you remember. Zyx zyx zyx. The wave is wv utsr.
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The discounted utsr.
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Yeah, with the coupon.
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Buy a coupon.
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P O, N the milk. Mlk, mlk. And then the jig HG that fed F, E, D, the cab. A, C, B, A. Yeah.
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That's fascinating.
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A little bit of practice. I can say that very fast.
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Z, y x 6 waves z, y x waves wv utsr qpon m l k j I h, g fedba.
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There you go. Yeah,
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that is a cool party trick. I think I'm gonna try that this weekend with the girls.
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B
Awesome.
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Hey, bud, just. Congratulations again. Everyday genius hacks to boost your memory, focus, problem solving and much more. I think this book's probably never been more important because I think we are starting to outsource memory and all these things more than we've done before. And there's value in virtue and just keeping our mind sharp in this regard. I really do believe that. I think as you said, we have a fuller life. Fuller mind, yes, but a fuller life if we pay attention to these things. So thank you for sharing that with us.
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Yeah, I'm glad you like my book. And it's really a big important next phase of my life because I think it is so important that we value our brains. And I think we all can cultivate this inner genius within us. We all have this capability. It's available to all of us.
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Okay, admit it. You are trying to recite the Alphabet backwards right now. I bet you can do it. I can do it. It's pretty amazing you learned that today. That was Nelson Dellis. He's the one who taught us. He is six time US Memory champion and he's the author of everyday genius hacks to boost your memory focus, problem solving and much more. Thanks for listening. Foreign.
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B
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