265: The Great Gatsby

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know Episode 265: The Great Gatsby Release Date: September 3, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 265 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts Thomas Magby, Graham Donaldson, and A.J. Hannenberg delve into F. Scott Fitzgerald's quintessential novel, The Great Gatsby. The episode explores the intricate layers of the story, dissecting its characters, themes, and enduring symbolism. Despite initial apprehensions about thoroughly covering such a nuanced work, the trio engages in a comprehensive discussion that offers both educators and casual readers valuable insights into the classic American novel.

Hosts' Initial Thoughts and Reflections

The episode begins with Thomas introducing his co-hosts and discussing A.J.'s initial feelings of uncertainty regarding the episode's depth and execution. A.J. candidly shares his concerns about potentially missing critical elements of the novel, highlighting the challenges of being a generalist approaching a well-studied text:

A.J. Hannenberg [00:54]: "Sometimes I go in feeling fairly confident, like I've read and researched a book. And then we get comments about how I have no idea what I'm talking about."

Despite these jitters, the hosts reassure listeners of their commitment to exploring the novel's depths, even if it means unintentionally revealing spoilers for those who haven't yet read the book.

Plot Overview

A.J. provides a detailed summary of The Great Gatsby, capturing the essence of the novel's narrative:

A.J. Hannenberg [03:00]: "The Great Gatsby is a 1925 novel by American writer F. Scott Fitzgerald, set during the Jazz Age, which, as far as I know, was a term that he coined."

The hosts walk through the main plot points, introducing key characters such as Nick Carraway, Jay Gatsby, Daisy Buchanan, and Tom Buchanan. They discuss Nick's role as the narrator, Gatsby's enigmatic wealth, and the complex relationships that drive the story forward.

Key Plot Points:

• Nick Carraway's Arrival: Nick, hailing from a well-off family, moves to West Egg and rents a house neighboring Gatsby's extravagant mansion.
• Gatsby's Lavish Parties: Gatsby throws opulent parties throughout the summer, attracting a diverse crowd despite his aloofness.
• Complex Relationships: The strained marriage of Daisy and Tom Buchanan, Gatsby's unyielding love for Daisy, and the introduction of Myrtle Wilson add layers of tension and conflict.
• Tragic Climax: The accidental death of Myrtle and Gatsby's subsequent demise in his swimming pool underscore the novel's tragic trajectory.

Character Analysis

Jay Gatsby (James Gatz)

Gatsby is portrayed as a self-made millionaire with murky business connections. His relentless pursuit of Daisy symbolizes the broader theme of the unattainable American Dream. A.J. highlights Gatsby's transformation from James Gatz to Jay Gatsby, emphasizing his aspirations and the lengths he goes to attain his idealized version of success and love.

A.J. Hannenberg [17:53]: "Jay Gatsby lives next to Nick and he starts throwing parties all summer. These big, lavish, crazy, extravagant parties."

Daisy Buchanan

Daisy is depicted as the epitome of beauty and wealth, but also as an enigmatic figure whose voice symbolizes allure and the seductive power of money. The hosts discuss how Daisy represents both Gatsby's ideal and the elusive nature of true happiness.

A.J. Hannenberg [43:06]: "Her voice was full of money. That's the inexhaustible charm that rose and fell in it."

Tom Buchanan

Tom embodies the arrogance and moral decay of the old aristocracy. His disdain for Gatsby's new money and his own infidelity reveal the hypocrisy and rigidity of the social structures portrayed in the novel.

Graham Donaldson [46:16]: "Nowadays, people begin by sneering at family life and family institutions, and next they'll throw everything overboard."

Nick Carraway

As the narrator, Nick serves as the moral compass of the story. His observations provide a nuanced perspective on the decadence and disillusionment of the era.

Themes and Symbolism

The American Dream

The novel critiques the hollowness of the American Dream, illustrating how Gatsby's pursuit of wealth and status leads to his downfall. The hosts discuss Gatsby's idealism and the inevitable disillusionment that results from chasing unattainable dreams.

Symbolism of the Green Light

The green light at the end of Daisy's dock is a recurring symbol representing Gatsby's hopes and dreams for the future. It embodies the perpetual striving for something just out of reach.

A.J. Hannenberg [28:05]: "This is the part that people talk about, maybe most from The Great Gatsby, is this green light."

The Eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg

These eyes overlook the Valley of Ashes, symbolizing the moral and social decay hidden beneath the glittering surface of wealth. They serve as a haunting reminder of the consequences of unchecked ambition and materialism.

A.J. Hannenberg [12:44]: "These spectacles become sort of the symbol for the eyes of God, which are looking over the ash heaps and the poor, but also aren't doing anything right."

The Valley of Ashes

This desolate area represents the moral and social decay resulting from the pursuit of wealth, contrasting sharply with the opulence of the Eggs.

Insights and Conclusions

The hosts connect Gatsby's personal tragedy to F. Scott Fitzgerald's own experiences, suggesting that the novel serves as a reflection of Fitzgerald's unfulfilled desires and societal critiques. They explore the complex interplay between illusion and reality, emphasizing how Gatsby's idealization of Daisy ultimately leads to his undoing.

Graham Donaldson [63:47]: "It's like if you let that animal side of you, the thing that wants and wants, you can't let it run you. It's almost like if you let that take control, there's no stopping it once it gets going."

The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring relevance of The Great Gatsby, highlighting its exploration of timeless themes such as ambition, love, and the elusive nature of fulfillment.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. A.J. Hannenberg on Daisy's Voice:

   [43:06] "Her voice was full of money. That's the inexhaustible charm that rose and fell in it."

2. Graham Donaldson on Gatsby as a Cautionary Figure:

   [35:08] "There's easy money to be made... But Nick doesn't need it because Nick comes from money he's already set."

3. A.J. Hannenberg on Symbolism:

   [12:44] "These spectacles become sort of the symbol for the eyes of God, which are looking over the ash heaps and the poor, but also aren't doing anything right."

4. Discussion on Irony in Tom's Remarks:

   [46:51] "Because Tom is cheating and sneering at family institutions so he doesn't even see the irony of his own words."

5. Reflection on Human Desire:

   [63:47] "It's like if you let that animal side of you, the thing that wants and wants, you can't let it run you."

Final Thoughts

Episode 265 offers a thorough and engaging examination of The Great Gatsby, balancing plot summary with deep analytical insights. The hosts effectively unpack the novel's complex characters and rich symbolism, making the discussion accessible and informative for both educators and avid readers. By intertwining personal reflections and literary analysis, Thomas, Graham, and A.J. provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of Fitzgerald's masterpiece and its enduring significance in exploring the American psyche.

Transcript

[Thomas Magby]

Hello, and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know, a podcast about the classical world, books, and today, the Great Gatsby. My name is Thomas Magby. I am joined, as always, by Mr. Graham Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hello.

[Thomas Magby]

And Mr. A.J. hannenberg.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That is me.

[Thomas Magby]

Now, A.J. came into this episode with a lot of strong confidence. He feels really good about this episode. What was your exact phrase of how you feel this is going to go like it was?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I don't know. I don't know how this is going to go.

[Graham Donaldson]

We'll see how this goes.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

We'll see how this goes.

[Thomas Magby]

Now, what percent of episodes do you think between the three of us?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Like, that's the 85%.

[Thomas Magby]

85%. Yeah. That's exactly right. So that's how we feel going into it. So, listener, tell us how you feel about 85% of our podcast.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Well, sometimes I go in feeling fairly confident, like I've read and researched a book. And then we get comments about how I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Thomas Magby]

That's exactly right.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

A la the Master and Margaret.

[Graham Donaldson]

Never happened. Yeah, this never happened.

[Thomas Magby]

YouTube is really fun. It's just really great to have YouTube comments on our videos. It's great.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So we remind the listeners that we're generalists. We're coming to these things with new eyes. Some of them we've studied at length for 16 years. Some of them, you know, some of them not. We haven't. And so. Yeah. So we hear from educators who have been teaching them for 16 years, and they let us know that we're doofuses.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Post your podcast in the show notes of yours.

[Thomas Magby]

Show us how much better you are.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

Anyway.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Anyway, I had the same experience. Cause I just read, you know, reread. I think the last time I read it was in college sometime. But I reread the Great Gatsby, and I was like, okay. Feeling okay. And then I went and talked to one of the teachers here at our school, Katherine Ball, and she says, what are you feeling? I was. I said, it's about money. And she said, she. And she goes, okay. And then told me all of the things in the book that I was missing. And I said, wow, okay, I'm a doofus. Anyway, that's kind of why I feel. I don't know how this is going to go, because I just feel inadequate, as I do to much of the literature we tackle. But I talked to an expert.

[Graham Donaldson]

You look great.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Thanks, Graham. Which is so useful on a podcast. It's the best possible thing I can be.

[Thomas Magby]

This will eventually get posted to YouTube years from now, but at some point it will be posted to YouTube.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That's true.

[Thomas Magby]

We're a little behind on that. Yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. And I'm wearing a short sleeve button up, which I'm still not used to. I always used to hate these, but I'm getting used to it.

[Thomas Magby]

Good. You look sharp. You look great. Thanks, listening audience. Believe us, AJ looks great.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. I think in my head, I'm 20.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

But I'm almost 40, and so I'm. I'm trying to, like, shift that self perspective. Anyway.

[Graham Donaldson]

I always thought, like, the short sleeve button up was like a Mormon look.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Oh, really? Maybe now I feel better about it.

[Thomas Magby]

It's like, why? I guess, Graham, why is that the thing you say right now, wearing a short sleeve button?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Thanks.

[Thomas Magby]

The man's already not feeling good about the outfits.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I feel at home. I suppose.

[Thomas Magby]

I don't. What's. Okay. Awesome.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

My word.

[Thomas Magby]

Hey, tell me more about this Gatsby guy.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. The Great Gatsby.

[Thomas Magby]

Is he okay? Is it great?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

1925 novel by American writer F. Scott Fitzgerald, set during the jazz age, which, as far as I know, was a term that he coined. Just kind of fun. So I. If you are a young student coming here because you've just been assigned the Great Gatsby, or a listener who likes to hear a little bit about the book before diving in. But don't like spoilers. This is not the episode for you. You need to wait until you've read the book and then come back. Or just be cool with me spoiling some things, because I'm gonna read sections from the book, including the very last page of the book, and if that is something that drives you crazy, don't hang out.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. But just be cool.

[Thomas Magby]

Be cool.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, be cool.

[Thomas Magby]

Good advice.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Most of these things, I feel cool spoiling them because they're, you know, 2,000 years old, and that's on you. This one's only about 100 years old, and it's. It's more of a novel that has twists and turns than it is something like the Republic. Anyway, so spoilers are coming. Just a heads up. All right.

[Thomas Magby]

This feels like one that's pretty common to be assigned in high school. A lot of people have read this book.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, a lot have read it. But we also have high school listeners. Right. So I just don't want them to come and then get mad because I spoil all the things. Because I'm definitely going to spoil all the things.

[Thomas Magby]

Incredible.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. So at some point, I'm going to Ask you two gents to read. You have a script in front of you. Well, my posture is way too high right now. I got to read my. Okay, There we go. All right. I'm going to be reading from my book on occasion, so it might take me small seconds to find the exact quote because I've just noted the page numbers. But I'm going to give you kind of a long overview of the plot and what happens in it, and then kind of highlight some of the things that a gentle. A gentle and charitable Catherine Ball was willing to tell me about this book that now I'm going to claim are entirely my idea.

[Thomas Magby]

Yes, of course.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. So the narrator of this book is a fellow named Nick Carraway. He is a guy trying to get into the bond business, and his family has been well off for three generations and who, legend has it, are descended from some dukes. So he has money. And that is gonna become evident in the way that he interacts with women, in the way. In the way that he interacts with Gatsby and the other characters of the novel. Because there will be occasionally temptations to get into sort of dark dealings. I'm not gonna go over this much in my summary, but he'll be temptations. He'll be asked to do things that are shady, and he just goes, nah. Because he doesn't really. He doesn't need to. He doesn't need the cash. He'll pass judgment on people. He'll treat women kind of offhandedly and discard them. Nick is not necessarily a great person.

[Graham Donaldson]

But that girl that plays tennis.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

You mean golf?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, the tennis girl.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Golf girl.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, it's a golf girl. It's a golf girl.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. He.

[Graham Donaldson]

I thought he likes her.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He likes her, but then he just kind of offhand dismisses her over a phone call. I mean, it's after a tragedy, but he said, I just can't talk to you today, and doesn't seem to have concern much for her feelings. This kind of thing happens with Nick. He's not a terrible guy. He's not a great guy. He's just sort of right down the middle, not worried about anything because he has cash. Right. He rents a house for the summer, and it's in a place there's East Egg and West Egg. I forget which he's on. I think West Egg. But he is kind of across the way from Daisy's house, and Daisy is his second cousin. And so he gets invited one evening to go and hang out.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is Long Island. Long Island.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Long island, yeah. Yeah. They're all. It's. Yeah, Long Island. So he. He's in this kind of nice house, and he goes to visit Daisy, his second cousin. She is married to a guy named Tom who used to be, you know, imagine the successful college quarterback. This is this guy. He's large. He's physically imposing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, what's his last name? Tom. Don't tell me. I can't remember.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Rhymes with schmoo, cannon.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, Buchanan. Yeah, Tom Buchanan. That's right.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. So of Tom, Nick says he would drift on forever, seeking a little wistfully for the dramatic turbulence of some irrecoverable football game. So he is kind of just always looking for maybe just the turmoil. Right. That's kind of what he's.

[Graham Donaldson]

You know, he was the man. He was the quarterback in college.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. Dramatic turbulence is, I think, kind of what he goes for.

[Thomas Magby]

He just hasn't accomplished anything since.

[Graham Donaldson]

Since then. And he married the girl, and the.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Rich girl married the girl. And he. Like, they both have lots of money now. They're just farting around in long run. Exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

They have a kid, if I remember correctly, Daisy has a child that she doesn't talk about.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Well, she. Yeah, she doesn't really much talk about her kid. She does on occasion, but she usually just trots him out to meet a guest. And then he runs back off with the housekeeper. I think we actually see her kid twice. I know in the novel, he sort of comes out and she's like, isn't he pretty? Okay, off you go. And then he runs back and disappears again. Just kind of tragic. The first, in this first chapter, Nick goes over to have sort of tea with them. He meets this woman, Jordan, who is a beautiful. Yeah, a beautiful golfer. She's professional. She's pretty well known. She's sort of no nonsense, and also a terrible driver. And while they're there, we can tell that there are some tensions going on in the house. And eventually, Nick and Daisy go out on the veranda and we find out that Tom has this other woman. And Daisy knows about it. It's just sort of common knowledge. She sort of gives this kind of sad little sob story. It's not long. It's weird. It's. She just sort of says, this is the thing that's happening. Talks a little bit about their kid, says some other things like, I hope she'll be a beautiful fool. That's what's. I said, I'd hope she'd be a beautiful fool. That's kind of what the best thing in the world for a Girl to be. Tom comes out and he says, did you guys have a talk on the veranda? And he goes, yeah. He goes, don't believe everything you hear. And then kind of wanders off. So we know there are marital tensions there. They're still married. It's weird. They all kind of drink and there's just this turbulence running under the surface.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's rich people marriage.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

We'll come back to that.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. And I want to read a small section about her voice. I looked back at my cousin, who began to ask me questions in her low, thrilling voice. It was the kind of voice that the ear follows up and down as if each speech is an arrangement of notes that will never be played again. Her face was sad and lovely with bright things in it, bright eyes and a bright, passionate mouth. But there was an excitement in her voice that men who cared for her found difficult to forget. A singing compulsion, a whispered listen, a promise that she had done gay, exciting things just a while since, and that there were gay, exciting things hovering in the next hour. Okay. Hear anything in that little passage that was striking? Like, that made you think symbolism?

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, I mean, she's just the one thing. I thought it was the sirens.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Ah, there you go.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So she has a voice that gives a singing compulsion. So there is this pull that she has got, and it is hard to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Define, so, but it's kind of that, like, 1920s. Like, you know, like, darling, I'm no care in the world, you know, like that kind of. That kind of flouncy girl. Like, that's.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's the Fitzgerald girl, too. Like, that's the Zelda. That's the. That kind of girl that, you know, you. You know, she would also be in, like, a Hemingway novel. That kind of.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

But, yeah, I never thought about the siren before, but that's cool.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. So we have this little sort of siren thing. Keep that in your mind.

[Graham Donaldson]

Keep it in my mind.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And where's my Odysseus?

[Graham Donaldson]

Tied to the ship mast.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, yeah. So just sort of keep that in your head. I'm going to try to kind of touch on little pieces of the symbolism that we're going to pull on later when we get to it. Hold on. I'm searching for a quote here. Okay. So there's that singing compulsion. They have this sort of lunch, and then they're sort of done. Nick decides to go hang out with Tom, and they drive. And I'm gonna read you another small section. Let's see, page 31 quote. Okay. Another. Another Quote about the voice. The instant her voice broke off, ceasing to compel my attention again, compulsion my belief, I felt the basic insincerity of what she had said. It made me uneasy, as though the whole evening had been a trick of some sort to exact a contributory emotion from me. I waited, and sure enough, in a moment, she looked at me with an absolute smirk on her lovely face, as if she had asserted her membership in a rather distinguished secret society to which she and Tom belonged. So he sees through it kind of a little bit at one point and. And it's just weird. It's this, like the voice is her allure. Okay. They decide to go on a motorcar ride. Tom, Nick, they sort of head out. And there's a small description about a place in the city that I kind of want to highlight. About halfway between West Egg and New York, the motor road hastily jones the railroad and runs beside it for a quarter of a mile so as to shrink away from a certain desolate area of land. This is a valley of ashes, a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens, where ashes take the form of houses and chimneys and rising smoke. And finally, with a transcendent effort of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air. Occasionally a line of gray cars crawls along an invisible visible track, gives out a ghastly creak and comes to rest. And immediately the ash gray men swarm up with leaden spades and stir up an impenetrable crowd which screens their obscure operations from your sight. But above the gray land and the spasms of bleak dust which drift endlessly over it, you perceive after a moment, the eyes of Dr. T.J. eckleburg. The eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleburg are blue and gigantic. Their retinas are one yard high. They look out of no face, but instead from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a non existent nose. Evidently some wild wag of an occultist set them there to fatten his practice on the burrow of queens. And then sank down himself into eternal blindness. Or forgot them and moved away. But his eyes dimmed a little by many paintless days under sun and rain brewed on over the solemn dumping ground. I'll come back to those spectacles. I just wanted to give you the.

[Graham Donaldson]

First hint so people know what they are. It's an advertisement.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

It's an advertisement. It's a big ad for Dr. TJ Abigail.

[Graham Donaldson]

Eyes of God On.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I feel like you've read this before.

[Graham Donaldson]

I've read Gatsby before, of course.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. Yeah. So anyway, there's this sort of ash heap and that. That will come in occasionally as they sort of blast from one party to another part of town where they're going for these dramatic, wonderful things. And it's just a reminder of sort of the refuse that comes from this kind of excess that they are living in that there is an ash heap. And that all comes out of this same city. And somewhere there are the poor who are doing poor people things. And there. There's. Yes. These giant eyes of God sort of. Sort of looking down. Okay. In on that little trip with Nick and Tom, they meet a woman named Myrtle Wilson at a gas station. He says hi to her husband. He's like, hey, how's it going on? And then he walks up to her and says, I have to see you get on the next train. So she hops on the train. They go out together.

[Graham Donaldson]

Nick does. Or. Sorry, Tom does.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yes. Tom says this. So this is his lover lady. Right. He's doing. And this shows how easy he is with this kind of thing. Nick is in tow. He has a friend there. And he goes up to this woman and says, I have to see you. And they join the party. It's like I have an affair and then I go out with my wife's second cousin.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. It's almost like Nick is not even like.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

It's like he doesn't.

[Graham Donaldson]

Acknowledged as a. Like. Like a solid person by these people.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, he doesn't really count. I. Maybe it's because he doesn't have a great pull in the. I don't know, in the.

[Graham Donaldson]

Everyone's just sort of knows that Nick just doesn't like. Nick ultimately is not gonna pass judgment, doesn't care.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. Or he just. He's one of those guys who just doesn't chat. So she's, you know, she's not a great beauty, this woman, but she does have sort of an undeniable vitality about her. So they're kind of hanging out. She decides that she wants a dog. So they stop and they buy a puzzle.

[Graham Donaldson]

Isn't she dark haired? Isn't she kind of like Italian sounding?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I can read you her description. Then I heard footsteps on the stairs. And in a moment, the thickish figure of a woman blocked out the light from the office door. She was in the middle 30s and faintly stout, but she carried her surplus flesh sensuously, as some women can. Her face above a spotted dress of dark blue crepe de chine, contained no facet. Or gleam of beauty. But there was an immediately perceptible vitality about her, as if the nerves of her body were continually smoldering. She smiled slowly and walking through her husband as if he were a ghost, shook hands with Tom, looking him flush in the eye. Then she wet her lips and without turning around, spoke to her husband in a soft, coarse voice. Get some chairs, why don't you? So somebody can sit down. Her name is Wilson. I don't think She's.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe not, but maybe. I don't know why I have this in my mind, but she's, you know, she's always described as this sort of, like, smoldering sex goddess. And then you've kind of got, like, wealthy, beautiful, but kind of pouty Daisy. And.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And Daisy. Daisy's sort of described as wispish.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Like, she's never really very clearly defined. She's beautiful, she's small. She's a little bit faint. She's delicate. It's her voice. And she's just. She seems to be a little girl playing all the time.

[Graham Donaldson]

Very good. Yeah, that's great.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And then.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whereas this woman, she's, you know, she's. She has a little more like. He even said that she sort of. What was the word? That she carries a little more weight, but she does it in a way that is like.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yes, sensuous, but is sensuous.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so, you know. Yeah, there's some va va voom to her.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, you can imagine. Daisy is sort of a forest sprite.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. So they go and they fight over these friends. So, Tom, this woman, Myrtle, and they decide to go to her, I think, sister's apartment and drink. And so they're sitting around, maybe it's her apartment. And here's a little quote from that. It was 9:00, almost immediately afterwards, I looked at my watch and found it was 10. Mr. McKee, a fellow at the party, was asleep on a chair with his fists clenched in his lap like a photograph of a man of action. Taking out my handkerchief, I wiped from his cheek the remains of the spot of dried lather that had been worrying me all afternoon. The little dog which they'd purchased that day was sitting on the table, looking with blind eyes through the smoke and from time to time, groaning faintly, people disappeared, reappeared, made plans to go somewhere and then lost each other, searched for each other, found each other a few feet away. Sometime toward midnight, Tom Buchanan and Ms. Wilson stood face to face, discussing in impassioned tones whether Mrs. Wilson had any Right. To mention Daisy's name. Daisy. Daisy, Daisy. Shouted Mrs. Wilson. I'll say it whenever I want to. Daisy. Daisy. Making a short, deft movement, Tom Buchanan broke her nose with his open hand. So Tom, not a great guy, is not opposed to violence. But weirdly enough, even though this is the woman he's sleeping with, he still holds a place for Daisy that is above these other women, kind of. Right. She's not allowed to talk about his wife. And if she does and she won't shut up, I mean, they're all drunk. And that doesn't excuse the behavior. But he won't. He's not afraid of result, you know, resorting to little bouts of violence. So obviously this kind of thing seems to end for Tom. Right. I don't think they maintain a relationship after that. Or at least not much. Much of one. Okay, so that's kind of chapter two. A little while later, this fellow named Gatsby moves in next door to Nick.

[Graham Donaldson]

Husband doesn't know about the affair between Myrtle or whatever her name is and Tom. Right? Her husband doesn't know about it.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

No. Her husband has no idea this is happening. The guy that works at the garage, he loves his wife, dutifully has no idea she's been running around on him. He. Yeah, he. He's described as not having very many friends. And he only has energy enough for her. And that's about it. The rest of the day he sort of sits on a chair and watches the street go by. So she has this massive vitality. He doesn't have much vitality. And I think she spends it with who she can. Especially Tom, who appears to have lots and lots of cash while she doesn't really. Right. She's sort of.

[Graham Donaldson]

And he's this like hot blooded former athlete and. Yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So, yeah. So this is where we sort of get introduced to. Great. To Jay Gatsby. Jay Gatsby lives next to Nick and he starts throwing parties all summer. These big, lavish, crazy, extravagant parties. He shows up at them like a benevolent God. But he doesn't seem to mix in them very much. It says the people show up and then exhibit the behavior as if they were at an amusement park. Right. They just sort of go crazy. They're swimming in the ocean. They're in his library. They're all over the place. But he has all goes to extra care to take care of the people there. There's a girl who falls and rips her dress. A couple days later she gets a dress in the mail from Gatsby. That's like a $3,000 dress in our money. Back then it was like 80 bucks. Right, right. But it's wildly expensive. And there are all these rumors about Jay because he doesn't really mingle as much as with everybody else. And so Nick has been invited. He tries to go find Gatsby and.

[Graham Donaldson]

No one knows who he is.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, he just sort of showed up, bought the house and started throwing parties.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whereas, like, you meet Nick and like, you realize, oh, you're. You're one of those families, these New England, these wealthy east coast families that goes back all the way to the Mayflower or whatever.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Right. And.

[Graham Donaldson]

But Gatsby, no one knows who Gatsby is.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, no one knows who Gatsby is. He throws these summers kind of, kind of, you know, he throw these parties kind of all summer long. People don't even really get invited to them. They just sort of show up at them. Right. And so there's a big long thing sort of explaining all these parties. And then Jay eventually asks Nick to go on a drive. And so they're on the drive and I'm gonna read you a little conversation that seems to be hilarious. So he's sitting there and they're just sort of driving in silence. And finally Gatsby says, look here, old sport. He broke out surprisingly. What's your opinion of me anyhow? A little overwhelmed, I began the general, general evasions which that question deserves. Well, I'm going to tell you something about my life, he interrupted. I don't want you to get a wrong idea of me from all these stories you hear. So he was aware of the bizarre accusations that flavored conversation in his halls. I'll tell you God's truth. His right hand suddenly ordered divine retribution to stand by. I am the son of some wealthy people in the Middle West. All dead now. I was brought up in America, but educated at Oxford because all my ancestors had been educated there for many years. It's a family tradition. He looked at me sideways, and I knew why. Jordan Baker, his golfing girlfriend, had believed he was lying. He hurried the phrase educated at Oxford or swallowed it or choked on it as though it had bothered him before. And with this doubt, his whole statement fell to pieces. And I wondered if there wasn't something a little sinister about him after all. What part of the Middle West, I inquired casually, San Francisco, which is not. It is in the middle of the west coast, but no one would ever say it's the Midwest. He goes, I see. My family all died, and I came into a good deal of money. Anyway, he gives this. This background of becoming like a young rajah in the capitals of Europe in Venice, Paris and Rome, collecting jewels and rubies and all of this stuff. And it's all very clearly not true at all. We find out on this drive that he's got some weird shady business connections. We meet a guy named Mr. Wolfsheim. I think it's Meyer Wolfsheim who talks about business gonections and doesn't really say much. And they kind of seem like they want Nick in on it, but Nick doesn't go for it. And the whole reason for this whole thing is Gatsby says, look, tonight you're gonna talk with Jordan, your golfing girlfriend, and she is going to make a request of you. He can't even request it himself. It has to come from her.

[Graham Donaldson]

Now wait a second. This Wolfheim guy.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Wolfsheim.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wolfshine.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

What's his first name?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Meyer.

[Graham Donaldson]

Meyer. So is Gatsby. I know. We later on in the book, we find out what his. His name was before he changed it.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Meyer Wolfsheim.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, no, Jay. Gatsby.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is Gatsby. I just put this was thing. Is Gatsby Jewish?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I don't think so.

[Graham Donaldson]

I can't remember. I thought. Or is he. Because. Because Meyer. It sounds like this guy's Jewish. Meyer Wolfsheim.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, whatever. But there's like this undertone that Gatsby. Ouch. Is somehow involved.

[Thomas Magby]

James Gats.

[Graham Donaldson]

James Gatz. G, A, T, Z. Yeah. Maybe they're. They're somewhere somehow. This undertone that Gatsby is somehow involved in either organized crime or like he made a bunch of money selling weapons right. During the war.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Oh, Wolfsheim. Wolfsheim's got all kinds of stuff. He fixed the World Series. He's a sketchy dude.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's a sketchy dude. But there's.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

If I.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

You're. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

I shouldn't jump ahead because I don't.

[Thomas Magby]

Say where the money comes from. But I thought.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I know. I don't know that they say where Wolfsheim's money comes from. He just sort of vaguely hints at it. Gatsby. We find out his money is from Sketchy. Okay, we'll find that out later. I'm gonna tell you guys.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. So we find out that there's. It's this whole thing and there's a request that's gonna come from his girlfriend that night for some reason. It's weird. So Nick eventually talks with Jordan. He's half distracted. Cause she's cute and she kind of reveals that there was this young soldier that Daisy was with for a little while, and he very clearly loved her and she very clearly loved him. And then he went off to war. She wanted her life to be fixed in some sort of solid way as quickly as possible and hadn't heard from him. And then on the day of her wedding, she had gotten a letter from this young soldier, Jay Gatsby, and decided to call it off. She got wicked drunk and was like, tell him Daisy's changer man. And they take the letter, they convince her to go through with it, and then, you know, a couple hours later, she's solid as ever and goes through with his marriage and gets married to Tom.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yep.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So she loved Gatsby at some point, 5, 5 ish years ago, and he went off to war. And then I think she maybe thought he was dead or had lost connection, but she got that letter, went through with the marriage anyway. And so it's clear that Mr. Gatsby wants to get to know Daisy again. And he asks for a meeting. He says, hey, Nick, can you set up a chance run in between me and Daisy? We find out he's been throwing these parties, all these really lavish parties, just hoping that Daisy would sort of flop her way into the party and he would get to make some sort of chance connection or see her or something, but it's not working. So he says, nick, you've got to invite her over, and you got to invite me over, and it's gotta happen, right? There's another quote about her Voice on page 52. Says the exhilarating ripple of her voice was a wild tonic in the rain. I had to follow the sound of it for a moment, up and down with my ear alone, before any words came through. So her voice is sort of this thing that comes back and back and back all the way through. Okay, so she sets up the thing that's from the beginning of the meeting, and it's great because Gatsby's super nervous. And she shows up. And then Nick takes Daisy into the meeting room and he's expecting that Gatsby will be there waiting for her, but he's not. And it says, with his hands still in his coat pockets, he stalked. Oh, so she turned her head as there was a light, dignified knocking at the front door. I went out and opened it. Gatsby, pale as death with his hands plunged like weights into his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle of water, glaring tragically into my eyes. So she had showed up. Gatsby was already in the house. But he decided he also needed to show up at the same time. So he ran out. Came all the way around the house in the rain, soaked himself.

[Thomas Magby]

That's funny.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And then walked back in. And then, with his hands still in his coat pockets, he stalked by me into the hall, turned sharply as if he were on a wire, and disappeared into the living room. It wasn't a bit funny. It certainly sounds funny.

[Thomas Magby]

It does, yes.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Aware of the loud beating of my own heart, I pulled the door to against the increasing rain. For half a minute there wasn't a sound. Then, from the living room, I heard a sort of choking murmur and part of a laugh, followed by Daisy's voice on a clear, artificial note. I certainly am awfully glad to see you again. A pause. It endured horribly. I had nothing to do in the hall, so I went into the room. Gatsby, his hands still in his pockets, was reclining against the mantelpiece in a strained counterfeit of perfect ease, even of boredom. His head leaned back so far that it rested against the face of a defunct mantelpiece clock. And from this position, his distraught eyes stared down at Daisy, who was sitting, frightened but graceful, on the edge of a chair. We've met before, muttered Gatsby. His eyes glanced momentarily at me and his lips parted with an abortive attempt at a laugh. Luckily, the clock took this moment to tilt dangerously at the pressure of his head, whereupon he turned and caught it with trembling fingers and set it back in place. Then he sat down rigidly, his elbow on the arm of the sofa and his chin in his hand. I'm sorry about the clock, he said. My own face now assumed a deep tropical burn. I couldn't muster up a single commonplace out of the thousand in my head. It's an old clock, I told him idiotically. I think we all believe for a moment that it had smashed to pieces on the floor. Incredible. So it's this, like, incredible. It's so awkward. If you watch the Great Gatsby movie, this scene is absolute gold because it's Leonardo DiCaprio. And he knocks the clock down and it kind of does break. And he tries to jam a piece back in and breaks it further. It's so good. So there's this wicked, awkward meeting and Nick steps out for a minute as the two get better acquainted and she sort of admits her love for him. Or at least we kind of surmise that he comes back in and they're both, you know, smiling and feeling lovely, and they get a tour of his house. I know I'm kind of going slow through this, but the weird thing is there's not a whole lot of plot. Like not. Not much actually happens. There's a lot of talking about feelings and emotions and sort of setting the scene and the tone. But as far as, like, real solid world events, there's not a lot. So. So they get a tour of the house. Jay Gatsby takes Daisy to show her his just shocking wealth. And he is wildly wealthy, right? He's got so much money. And he takes her into his place and ends up digging into the closet and starts taking shirts out of his closet and throwing them on the couch.

[Thomas Magby]

Like she's going through the.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I think he does. He took out a pile of shirts and began throwing them one by one before us. So he is displaying his literally nice shirts. Suddenly, with a strange sound, Daisy bent her head into the shirts and began to cry. They're such beautiful shirts, she sobbed, her voice muffled in thick folds. It makes me sad because I've never seen such beautiful shirts before. It's really cute. And this is the part that people talk about, maybe most from the Great Gatsby, is this green light. You guys know about the green light I'm talking about? This is where it's first introduced. If it wasn't for the mist, we could see your home across the bay, said Gatsby. You always have a green light that burns all night at the end of your dock. Daisy put her arm through his abruptly, but he seemed absorbed in what he had just said. Possibly it had occurred to him that the colossal significance of that light had now vanished forever. Compared to the great distance that had separated him from Daisy, it had seemed very near. To her, almost touching her, it had seemed as close as a star to the moon. Now it was again a green light on a dock. His count of enchanted objects had diminished by one, so he couldn't get close to her. But the light was so he would stare at it all night. And now that he actually had her, the light was meaningless. It was just a light again. Okay, Nick decides to leave because he wants to leave these two lovers, you know, to chat things over. As I went over to say goodbye, I saw that the expression of bewilderment had come back into Gatsby's face, as though a faint doubt had occurred to him as to the quality of his present happiness. Almost five years. There must have been moments, even that afternoon, when Daisy tumbled short of his dreams. Not through her own fault, but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion. It had gone beyond her, beyond everything. He'd thrown himself into it with a creative passion, adding to it all the time, decking it out with every bright feather that drifted his way. No amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart. As I watched him, he adjusted himself a little, visibly. His hand took hold of hers and he said something low. And she said something low in his ear. He turned toward her with a rush of emotion. I think that voice held him most with its fluctuating feverish warmth because it couldn't be over dreamed. That voice was a deathless song. They had forgotten me. But Daisy look glanced up and held out her hand. Gatsby didn't know me now at all. I looked once more at them and they looked back at me, remotely possessed by intense life. Then I went out of the room and down the marble steps into the rain, leaving them there together. So at this moment we sort of see that Gatsby has built up this thing in his head that perhaps even beyond the Daisy of real life. Right. He's got the actual Daisy. And he gets entranced by this light again, feeling that enchanted objects has diminished by one when really he's got the real flesh and blood person right there with him.

[Thomas Magby]

Right. So he's just. Because that ends sounding hopeful or like he's got the thing he wanted. But right before that, it sounds like disillusionment. Right? Like.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

So I don't know if there's just this conflict of he's feeling both at the same time. Maybe.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. And we get weird hints that he's doing this like weird stalkerish behavior. Right. He asks for a meeting, but not even through. Like he can't even ask for it. He's throwing these parties while they're there. He shows all these newspaper clippings he's kept of her for years and years and years, which might feel romantic when you're young. When you're a little bit older. Feels. Feels a little bit weird. A little bit.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, days is she. It's the. It's. She's the golden haired woman, right? The per. The He. He's put all of his like hearts, ambition and desire and wanting to be. Make something of himself into this person. And now he's got this person and it's this mixture of ecstatic joy that she's on his arm. And also like, oh really? She's just like a real. She's like a regular person.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

She's crying at his shirts. Yeah. Like it's. And Obviously that's not what she's crying about. Right. There's sort of this over rush of emotion and she just can't hold it in. And finally there's, there's just. Jesus Christ.

[Graham Donaldson]

But it's also this like old money, new money thing going on. Like, like Gatsby was the poor soldier and now he's coming with this new money. But then he's never, you know, you're never really going to be accepted into the old money world when you're this new money person. But. And she is, she's the establishment and he's this upstart and anyway, but, but all of that, that it's set poor Daisy, right. Like, like having to shoulder like all of that desire, all of that like memetic desire of somebody else is like built up in you. You as a person. I mean she gets completely overshadowed as a person. She's not a real person to Gatsby. She's the object.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Of desire.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And right after this is when they reveal who James Gat or who Jay Gatsby really is. His real name is James Gatz. He does have family. We find out later he is not alone in this world like Dakota or something.

[Graham Donaldson]

North Dakota.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He's from I think South Dakota. Yeah, let's see. It's one of the Dakotas. Anyway. He's from North Dakota. James Gatz of North Dakota.

[Graham Donaldson]

Blue blooded place in America, right?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, he really is from like the Midwest. But not, not San Francisco, certainly not. And we find out he was a young poor kid and absolutely enamored of wonderful beautiful things. Right. There's a quote on page, so it doesn't. Page doesn't matter. But there's a quote that says for a while he would just dream of these crazy things. Fantastic conceits. A universe of ineffable gaudiness spun itself out in his brain while the clock ticked on the washstand and the moon. So he's just laying in bed dreaming of these wonderful things while he works menial jobs. And it says for a while these reveries provided an outlet for his imagination. They were a satisfactory hint of the unreality of reality. A promise that the rock of this world was founded securely on a fairy's wing. He wants these wonderful things, doesn't know how to get them. Luckily he meets a guy named Dan Cody. And Dan Cody drives a yacht. He is. He's got crazy money from some efforts in mining silver and gold. And he has. He's so rich that he just sort of sails around the continent on this fancy boat that he's got by chance, he drops anchor in Jay Gatsby's bay. James Gatz, who he was. And as soon as James Gatz climbed on the deck, he introduced himself as Jay Gatsby. He already had this person in his mind that he could run with. The name sounds nicer, it sounds fancier, it sounds more old money than James Gatz. So he gives this name, Dan Cody. Recognizes that he's quick, he's smart, he's good looking and he's ambitious. So he keeps him around. And after Dan Cody dies, he even leaves some money to him. But there's a woman who got her claws into Dan Cody before he died. So Jay Gatsby's cheated out of all of it. He eventually goes to World War I, comes back decorated. He really did some good things. He quickly rose to, I think it was a major, was put in charge of the machine gun battalion. Earned a few medals in the war, but came back penniless. Found out Daisy was attached, sort of hovered in her aura for a long time. And then get attached to this Meyer Wolfsheim guy who hooked him up with some sketchy money. We find out, and I don't, I'm not sure I wrote this down anywhere, but we find out later that what he did was together they bought a bunch of tiny drugstores and then started selling bootlegged liquor out of them. So grain alcohol. That's how they made their money.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gotcha.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Or at least that's how they started making money. Now they've got some nebulous thing that's kind of dark and nobody talks about, but they're making even more money. So there's all this stuff. At one point, Jay even tries to get Nick in on it and he says, hey, I've got a thing you might be interested. You can make a good bit of money doing it. And Nick of course doesn't need it. He just goes, no, no thanks. Like, isn't even tempted, like many any kid. And that time, you know, we're coming up on the Great Depression here. Any kid of that time would have been eager to make some cash.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's, there was easy money to be made. This was like a massive boom in America. And but Nick doesn't need it because Nick's comes from money he's already set.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He doesn't need it. So you know when you already got 12 pillowcases of gold at home, somebody offers you a handful.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, and also it's like, why go to crime when you have all the Connections to go into banking or to go into bonds or whatever he wants to get into. Like, why.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, he's a bond.

[Graham Donaldson]

Why take that risk when you can go and, like, be a legitimate gangster?

[Thomas Magby]

There it is.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay. Later in this scene, after we're finding out about all this stuff we. He starts. He invites her to a party. Daisy. And Daisy does not really like the party. She doesn't really have a good time. It feels kind of gaudy. It's not really great. The parties were never really great. And I think seeing her reaction to her.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, there are these back in alien things, right?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, they're these big crazy parties. And she doesn't really have a good time. And Jay is just feel. Mr. Gatsby feels awful about it. He all of a sudden sees everything in a new light. And this will be the last party he throws. It's the last one. He doesn't do it again. And I'm going to read this little quote because it's really kind of revelatory of what's happening in Jay Gatsby's mind as he's dealing with Daisy. Sorry. I'm kind of taking a while to get us there. I hope that's right. I stayed late that night. Gatsby asked me to wait until he was free. And I lingered in the garden until the inevitable swimming party had run up, chilled and exalted from the black beach. Until the lights were extinguished in the guest rooms overhead. When he came down the steps at last, the tan skin was drawn unusually tight on his face. And his eyes were bright, tired. She didn't like it, he said immediately. Of course she did. She didn't like it, he insisted. She didn't have a good time. He was silent, and I guessed at his unutterable depression. I feel far away from her, he said. It's hard to make her understand. You mean about the dance? The dance? He dismissed all the dances he had given with a snap of his fingers. Old sport. The dance is unimportant. He wanted nothing less of Daisy than that she should go to Tom and say, I never loved you. After she had obliterated three years with that sentence, they could decide upon the more practical measures to be taken. One of them was that after she was free they were to go back to Louisville and be married from her house just as if it were five years ago. And she doesn't understand, he said despairingly. She used to be able to understand. We'd sit for hours. He broke off and began to walk up and down a desolate path of fruit rinds and discarded favors and crushed flowers. I wouldn't ask too much of her, I ventured. You can't repeat the past. Can't repeat the past? He cried incredulously. Why, of course you can. He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand. I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before, he said, nodding determinedly. She'll see. He talked a lot about the past, and I gather that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself, perhaps that she had gone into loving. Daisy, his wife had been confused and disordered. His life had been confused and disordered since then. But if he could once return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was. And then there's little ellipses. One autumn night five years ago, they'd been walking down the street when the leaves were falling and they came to a place where there were no trees and the sidewalk was white with moonlight. They stopped here and turned to each other. Now it was a cool night with that mysterious excitement in it which comes at the two changes of the year. The quiet lights of the houses were humming out into the darkness, and there was a stir and bustle among the stars. Out of the corner of his eye Gatsby saw that the blocks of the sidewalk were really formed a ladder and mounted to a secret place above the trees. He could climb to it if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder. His heart beat faster and faster as Daisy's white face came up to his own. He knew that when he kissed this girl and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning fork that had been struck upon a star. Then he kissed her at his lips he touched at his lips touch. She blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete. Through all she said, even through his appalling sentimentality, I was reminded of something, an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words that I had heard somewhere, a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape in my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's as though there were more struggling upon them then a wisp of startled air, but they made no sound. What I'd almost remembered was uncommunicable forever. Right. That's A weird passage. What'd you guys get from that?

[Graham Donaldson]

Rich girls, man. Rich girls.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Sure.

[Thomas Magby]

You want to say anything more?

[Graham Donaldson]

No. Like, the thing that I always reflect on with Gatsby is you have the idea and you have the reality. You have the idea of what Daisy is and what he wants her to be. And it's everything about his insecurity and his desire to be great and his desire to be ushered into high society and to be rich and to be successful and all this kind of stuff and to be unashamed. Like, he's super. Like, he doesn't want to talk about where he gets his dirty money. He's ashamed of his. Of his, like, foreign immigrant sounding your, you know, German name. And he's. And he just wants to be in this. And for him, Daisy, you know, if Daisy loves him, he's done it. And then on the other hand, there's the reality. You have this, like, real person of Daisy, and she has her own desires and she has the kind of life that she wants to live. She has the own pressures that are on her. And like, marrying Tom Buchanan is the script, is the thing that you should be doing. And he's the athlete and he's the all American, and you can live this life of wealth and, like, buy your bonds and drink your champagne and. And. And. But then she's also got her heart. And then there's. There's Jay. But anyway, so. But Gatsby doesn't even realize this about Daisy. Like, he. It's not like. It's not this relationship of equals who are wanting to, like, forge a life together. It's not. It's not a. Darcy and Elizabeth, right? These two people that even though there's a class discrepancy there, their relationship of equals, it's that Daisy's been symbolized, diminished by Jay into a. Into a symbol. And then she's getting wrecked. And the thing is, that's probably like, Daisy's curse. Tom's probably done it. She's the. She's the woman I'm supposed to marry. She's the. She's the. The jewel that you're supposed to get. And then he can go off and have his, like, you know, what he really wants, which is just. Just like, you know, passionate lovemaking with some, like, you know, smoldering woman. And Daisy's not going to give him that.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah, he wants some tumult. Yeah, right. He wants passion, craziness.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Daisy's not. Yeah, Daisy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Daisy's not given. And so the poor girl, she's just like she's. She's object. She is object for the men around her and no wonder she's cries.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

But Tom seems to treat most women like objects.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, but Gatsby's doing it too.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. And he idolizes her a little more. But here's where the bit about the. The voice comes in fully. So right after that scene they're thinking about. They're all kind of hanging out. They're thinking. And she's been spending a lot of time at Gatsby's in the mornings. Tom kind of doesn't like this. He kind of gets. Starts to kind of key into what's going on here. And it's looking kind of weird. And he starts to investigate Gatsby. He's like, I don't really know what's happening. Not really into it. But they're all hanging out one hot day. Nick, Jordan, Gatsby, Tom and Daisy. It's really hot. And they all decide to go to town. And Tom says I don't see the idea. I don't see the idea of going to town. Broke out Tom. Savagely women get these notions into their heads. Shall we take anything to drink? Called Daisy from an upper window. I'll get some whiskey, answered Tom. He went inside. Gatsby turned to me rigidly. I can't say anything in his house, old sport. She's got an industry. An indiscreet voice, I remarked. It's full of. I hesitated. Her voice is full of money. He said suddenly. That's it. I'd never understood before. It was full of money. That was the inexhaustible charm that rose and fell in it. The jingle of it. The cymbal song of it. High in a white palace. The king's daughter, the golden girl. So her voice was. Yes, it is her siren quality. But that quality is cash. She's got lots of it. Yes. She can always promise a wonderful thing to come.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's not just like she's rich. It's that everything that money can do. It's the optionality. It' it's the promise. It's the freedom. It's the.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

It's the fun. It's the fun.

[Thomas Magby]

Fun.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's the.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

It's the cool rooms upstairs. It's the. Like we could travel at any moment. We could go do whatever we want to do. All of those things.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is the life of. If you. If you just think it and will it. You have it. That's who date. That's like what Daisy sent. That's what her voice can promise you.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah. So that is that little thread running all the way through that what Daisy has her desirable quality. That siren song is money. That's the thing that Gatsby like. That is the thing that captured him. And I'm gonna read a section in a minute that actually kind of better sort of exhibits that little piece. How much time do I got? Ooh, some time. So, yeah, that this is kind of the thing that captured Gatsby in the first place. And it seems to be the thing that continuously gets him. And what's crazy is that this comes directly from his mouth. He said, she's got money. That's the thing that's in her voice. Right. All right, so they go to town, and this is the part I printed out for you guys to read with me. They go to town and they kind of stop at the gas station where the Wilsons are. And it's kind of awkward and not great. And they go downtown and they're trying to decide what they're gonna do with themselves. But alas, they can't think of anything to do except to rent a room to drink in. So they go to a hotel, rent a room. Like, man, that so. So this is what they decide to. We're gonna start on page 115. You guys see the little star there? Yeah. There's a couple on yours, I think, where I highlighted and then crossed it out. Because it's not actually you. If you look out for those X's.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, the X's mean it's not actually me.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That. That means I screwed up. That's not actually you, so don't read those.

[Thomas Magby]

Do I have to read all this? Yeah, there's some. Tom is not a very nice person.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom is not a very nice person. There are some swears here. So just a heads up.

[Thomas Magby]

Does Tom swear more? Wait, who are you reading for?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He just says the darn word. D, A, M, N. So if you're listening with kids, now might be a time to fast forward a little bit.

[Thomas Magby]

He has an unfortunate comment about intermarriage in the first section.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

But, yeah, we'll highlight that. Cool. Okay. You guys ready?

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, yes.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay, let's go. So they're all drinking, and then Tom says, wait a minute. I want to ask Mr. Gatsby one more question. So we'll take it from. Go on.

[Graham Donaldson]

Go on.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Gatsby said politely.

[Thomas Magby]

What kind of a row are you trying to cause in my house anyhow?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

They were out in the open at last, and Gatsby was content. He Isn't causing a row? Daisy looked desperately from one to the other. You're causing a row. Please have a little self control.

[Thomas Magby]

Self control?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Repeated Tom incredulously.

[Thomas Magby]

I suppose the latest thing is to sit back and let Mr. Nobody from Nowhere make love to your wife. Well, if that's the idea, you can count me out. Nowadays, people begin by sneering at family life and family institutions, and next they'll throw everything overboard and have intermarriage between black and white.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay, not great. Not great. Written in the 20s, not great. Second, isn't this a little bit, like, ironic?

[Thomas Magby]

Because Tom is cheating on days of the day.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Because Tom is cheating and sneering at family institutions so he doesn't even see the irony of his own words. And what's more, it's not highlighted in the book. This is one great thing about the great Gatsby novel is that it does a really good job of not drawing connections for you. It'll hint at things and supply sort of what's happening. But you have to make all these connections for yourself. It respects the reader and trusts you to do a lot. And the prose is totally beautiful. Anyway, I just wanted to highlight that. That's total irony coming from Tom. Right. Flushed with his impassioned gibberish, he saw himself standing alone on the last barrier of civilization. We're all white here, murmured Jordan.

[Thomas Magby]

I know I'm not very popular. I don't give big parties. I suppose you've got to make your house into a pigsty in order to have any friends in the modern world.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Angry as I was, as we all were, I was tempted to laugh whenever he opened his mouth. The transition from libertine to prig was so complete.

[Graham Donaldson]

I've got something to tell you, old.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Sport, began Gatsby, but Daisy guessed at his intention. Please don't, she interrupted helplessly. Please, let's all go home. Why don't we all go home? That's a good idea. I got up. Come on, Tom. Nobody wants a drink.

[Thomas Magby]

I want to know what Mr. Gatsby has to tell me.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Your wife doesn't love you, said Gatsby quietly.

[Graham Donaldson]

She's never loved you. She loves me.

[Thomas Magby]

You must be crazy.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Exclaimed Tom. Automatically. Gatsby sprang to his feet, vivid with excitement.

[Graham Donaldson]

She never loved you, do you hear?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He cried.

[Graham Donaldson]

She only married you because I was poor and she was tired of waiting for me. It was a terrible mistake, but in her heart she never loved anyone except me.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

At this point, Jordan and I tried to go, but Tom and Gatsby insisted with competitive firmness that we remain as though neither of them had anything to conceal, and it would be a privilege to partake vicariously of their emotions.

[Thomas Magby]

Sit down, Daisy.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom's voice groped unsuccessfully for the paternal note.

[Thomas Magby]

What's been going on? I want to hear all about it.

[Graham Donaldson]

I told you what's been going on, said Gatsby. Going on for five years and you didn't know?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom turned to Daisy sharply.

[Thomas Magby]

You've been seeing this fellow for five years?

[Graham Donaldson]

Not seeing, said Gatsby.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

We couldn't meet. But both of us loved each other all that time, old sport, and you didn't know? I used to laugh sometimes, but there.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Was no laughter in his eyes.

[Graham Donaldson]

To think that you didn't know.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, that's all.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom tapped his thick fingers together like a clergyman and leaned back in his chair.

[Thomas Magby]

You're crazy.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He exploded.

[Thomas Magby]

I can't speak about what happened five years ago because I didn't know Daisy then, and I'll be damned if I see how you got within a mile of her unless you brought the groceries to the back door. But all the rest of that's a goddamned lie. Daisy loved me when she married me, and she loves me now.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

No, said Gatsby, shaking his head.

[Thomas Magby]

She does, though the trouble is that sometimes she gets foolish ideas in her head and doesn't know what she's doing.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He nodded sagely.

[Thomas Magby]

And what's more, I love Daisy, too. Once in a while I go off on a spree and make a fool of myself, but I always come back, and in my heart I love her all the time.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

You're revolting, said Daisy. She turned to me and in her voice dropping an octave lower, filled the room with thrilling scorn. Do you know why we left Chicago? I'm surprised they didn't treat you to the story of that little spree. Gatsby walked over and stood beside her.

[Graham Donaldson]

Daisy, that's all over now, he said earnestly. It doesn't matter anymore. Just tell him the truth, that you've never loved him and it's all wiped out forever.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

She looked at him blindly. Why? How could I love him?

[Graham Donaldson]

Possibly you never loved him.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

She hesitated. Her eyes fell on Jordan and me with a sort of appeal, as though she realized at last what she was doing, and as though she had never all along intended doing anything at all. But it was done now. It was too late. I never loved him, she said with perceptible reluctance.

[Thomas Magby]

Not at Kapiolani?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Demanded Tom. It's just such a rich sounding place? Demanded Tom suddenly. No, from the ballroom, beneath muffled and suffocating cords, were drifting up on hot waves of air.

[Thomas Magby]

Not that day I carried you down from the punch bowl to keep your shoes dry.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

There was a husky tenderness in his tone. Daisy, please don't. Her voice was cold. The rancor was gone from it. She looked at Gatsby. There, Jay, she said. But her hand, as she tried to light a cigarette, was trembling. Suddenly she threw the cigarette and burning match on the carpet. Oh, oh, you want too much, she cried to Gatsby. I love you now. Isn't that enough? I can't help what's past. She began to sob helplessly. I did love him once, but I loved you, too. Gatsby's eyes opened and closed.

[Graham Donaldson]

You loved me too, he repeated.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Even that's a lie, said Tom savagely.

[Thomas Magby]

She didn't know you were alive. Why, there's things between Daisy and me that you'll never know. Things that neither of us can ever forget.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

The words seemed to bite physically into Gatsby.

[Graham Donaldson]

I want to speak, Daisy alone, he insisted. She's all excited now.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Even alone. I can't say I never left, Tom, she admitted in a pitiful voice. It wouldn't be true. Of course it wouldn't, agreed Tom. She turned to her husband. As if it mattered to you, she said.

[Thomas Magby]

Of course it matters. I'm going to take better care of you from now on.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

You. You don't understand, said Gatsby with a touch of payment.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're not going to take care of her anymore.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm not?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom opened his eyes wide and laughed. He could afford to control himself now.

[Thomas Magby]

Why's that?

[Graham Donaldson]

Daisy's leaving you.

[Thomas Magby]

Nonsense.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I am, though, she said with visible effort.

[Thomas Magby]

She's not leaving me.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Tom's words suddenly leaned down over Gatsby.

[Thomas Magby]

Certainly not for a common swindler who'd have to steal the ring he put on her finger.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I won't stand this. Cried Daisy. Oh, please, let's go out.

[Thomas Magby]

Who are you, anyhow?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Broke out Tom.

[Thomas Magby]

You're one of that bunch that hangs around with Meyer Wolfsheim. That much I happen to know. I've made a little investigation into your affairs, and I'll carry it further tomorrow.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can suit yourself about that, old.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Sport, said Gatsby steadily.

[Thomas Magby]

I found out what your drugstores were.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He turned to us and spoke rapidly.

[Thomas Magby]

He and this Wolfsheim bought up a lot of side street drugstores here and in Chicago, and sold grain alcohol over the counter. That's one of his little stunts. I picked him for a bootlegger the first time I saw him, and I wasn't far wrong.

[Graham Donaldson]

What about it?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Said Gatsby politely.

[Graham Donaldson]

I guess your friend Walter Chase wasn't too proud to come in on it.

[Thomas Magby]

And you left him in the lurch, didn't you? You let him go to jail for a month over in New Jersey. God, you ought to hear Walter on the subject of you.

[Graham Donaldson]

He came to us dead broke. He was very glad to pick up some money, old sport.

[Thomas Magby]

Don't you call me old sport, cried Tom.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Gatsby said nothing.

[Thomas Magby]

Walter could have you up on the betting laws, too, but Wolfsheim scared him into shutting his mouth.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That unfamiliar yet recognizable look was back again in Gatsby's face. That drugstore business was just small change, continued Tom slowly.

[Thomas Magby]

But you've got something on now that Walter's afraid to tell me about.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I glanced at Daisy, who was staring terrified between Gatsby and her husband, than at Jordan, who had begun to balance an invisible but absorbing object on the tip of her chin. Then I turned back to Gatsby and was startled at his expression. He looked, and this is said in all contempt for the babbled slander of his garden, as if he had killed a man. For a moment the sight of his face could be described in just that fantastic way. It passed. He began to talk excitedly to Daisy, denying everything, defending his name against accusations that had not been made. But with every word she was drawing further and further into herself. So he gave that up, and only the dead dream fought on as the afternoon slipped away, trying to touch what was no longer tangible, struggling unhappily, undispairingly toward that lost voice across the room. The voice begged again to go. Please, Tom, I can't stand this anymore. Her frightened eyes told that whatever intentions, whatever courage she had had were definitely gone.

[Thomas Magby]

You two start on home.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Daisy, said Tom in Mr. Gatsby's car. She looked at Tom, alarmed now, but he insisted with magnanimous scorn, go on.

[Thomas Magby]

He won't annoy you. I think he realizes that his pre, presumptuous little flirtation is over.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Okay, I think we can probably stop there. Yeah, this is, I think, like it ruins the.

[Thomas Magby]

The affair. Like yep, yep, it's over. Like breaks the illusion, right?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Even has the moxie to tell them to drive together back to his house.

[Thomas Magby]

Right?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Right. You can ride with Gatsby. Like man, what a power move. I also love the basic comedy of this. Like the old sport. And there's just so much silliness because they're all a little bit Half drunk. And it's. I don't know, this is a pretty hard scene. I'm wondering if I should talk about what happens right after this. I think I'll leave that bit up to our. Up to our reader. This. This I won't spoil for you.

[Graham Donaldson]

But there's aren't talking about the ending.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, you have to.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

I'm going to talk about the very, very.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, you think it's set up by what happens next?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

All right, fine. All right, so what happens is, on the way back, we find out that Gatsby lets Daisy drive. And as they pass seeing Tom Buchanan's car, the woman, Myrtle, at the gas station runs out to talk to him because she is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Because she thinks it's Buchanan.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So Daisy tries to swerve away from her and then at the last second, you know, wusses out because there's another car there. And she actually hits Myrtle and kills her. The car pauses for a moment and then drives on. So Daisy can't handle it. She panics, she drives away. Gatsby says he will always claim that it was him. Tom, of course, drives home.

[Graham Donaldson]

Wait, why is Myrtle wanting to come out to talk to Buchanan?

[Thomas Magby]

Because it's Tom.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Like he's broken her nose. And she. I think she misses with it because she's with her husband now and it's, you know, it was a drunken fight they had and this whole thing. Gotcha. Anyway, on the way back, Tom stops in at the gas station, sees the body, tries to comfort the husband, basically says, it wasn't me. I wasn't driving the car. I'm in a different car. We just came from New York. Anyway, the husband has a horrible night. The next morning, he kind of disappears for a little while. And then as Jay Gatsby sort of waits for the hammer to fall, he decides to go swimming and use his pool. For the first time ever that summer, he hasn't at all. And as he's swimming, Mr. Wilson comes up and shoots him and then shoots himself. So Jay dies in his swimming pool, which back then was a pretty amazing thing to have and definitely a symbol of wealth. And so he dies sort of in this wealth, which is funny.

[Graham Donaldson]

Symbol of America, man. They have owned private pool.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That's the great thing. There was a kid in class, says Catherine, that as they were coming up on it, she's like, yeah, we're gonna read the Great Gatsby. Goes, isn't that the one about how the American dream leaves you dead in your pool? She's like, shut up. Cause he Was kind of giving it away.

[Graham Donaldson]

But yes, it is.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

So yeah, he dies in his pool. And that's awfully tragic. Gatsby, right when they had arrived home from that home.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Dude's a criminal.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Right. When they. We'll talk about it in a sec. Right. When they arrive home from that tragic night, Gatsby was afraid that Tom would hit her or something. So he sort of stands out in the bushes all evening. But what's really happening is Daisy and Tom are coolly discussing what they're going to do next over beer and chicken that they don't touch. They talk. It's old money conspiring. It makes that clear. He's like, what you know, Gatsby wouldn't, would have seen if he looked through the window was old money. Calmly, you know, machinating and figuring out what they're going to do. So they disappear. They go on a trip and patch it up. Gatsby dies. Nick has trouble getting anybody to come to his funeral. Wolfsheim won't come. He can't get mixed up in a guy who got killed. None of the partygoers come. The only guy that shows up is this random border who is sort of in Jay Gatsby's house just hanging out, doing push ups. He was like just some random guy living there. He showed up and he said like he deserved more than this. Right. For people to actually come. My theory is that's Fitzgerald. I think that's the author. Why I think he's hanging out in the house.

[Thomas Magby]

Is there any connection between them?

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Because that's what I would do if I was the author. I would put somebody in there to be me. And well, the other great thing, and I'll touch on this really quickly before I sort of read the end, is that Fitzgerald wrote on this because he lived it. He loved a woman when he was young that was rich. And the family basically said, no, you don't have money and poor little boys shouldn't try to marry rich girls. The second girl he was into, they were engaged for a little while. And then because he could not seem to get a job that made enough money, she basically said, when you are financially like okay, and you can support this lifestyle that I'm used to, we can get married. And he couldn't do it. So she broke off the engagement. And then he wrote his first book. It became a success. And then she came.

[Graham Donaldson]

He hit her up.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

He hit her up. And they did get re engaged and eventually got married. But even then that Zelda. Yeah, even then at the Height of their, like, coming back together, he said, I have no feelings for her. Like, I wouldn't care if she died. They had a tumultuous relationship. They were part of the, you know, Ernest Hemingway crowd and had all this money and did all this drinking, and he did not hold his liquor. Well, neither of them do. They started accusing each other of infidelity. She may have had schizophrenia, like all this stuff. He had a really hard life. But Jay Gatsby's story is almost the story about Fitzgerald's love of this woman in his early years. Right. This first woman that he really wanted and couldn't have. Right. He writes about it because he lived it. But I still think the border was Fitzgerald sort of being in the story and attending the funeral and all that stuff. I'm going to read the. The glasses I mentioned earlier. I'm going to. I'm not going to go back and read it. But there's a point where Mr. Wilson takes his wife when he finds out that she's been running around on him and forces her to look out upon the ash heaps and the glasses. And he says, look, God is always watching. And so these glasses become sort of the symbol for the eyes of God, which are looking over the ash heaps and the poor, but also aren't doing anything right. They don't solve the problems. They're there present in these important times, but they don't do much. And even then, there's a little comedy thrown in because the guy that's standing there that Mr. Wilson telling the story to, he goes, yeah, but those are just an advertisement. He just points it out. But there's a little bit of symbolism there. I wanted to read the very last page sort of as a goodbye. Let's see how we're doing on time here. Yep, it's time. Okay, so last page. Fitzgerald has noted, or Nick has noted, that all of the. All of the main characters are Westerners and not really Easterners. Right. That they might have this thing in them that's not accustomed. You mean the eggs?

[Thomas Magby]

The west egg? East egg.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Is that. No, they are Western United States. They're not native Easterners, So he says. Most of the big shore places were closed now, and there were hardly any lights except the shadowy, moving glow of a ferryboat across the sound. And as the moon rose higher, the inessential houses began to melt away. Until gradually I became aware of the old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors. Eyes, a fresh green breast of the New World, its vanished trees, the trees that had made way for Gatsby's house had once pandered in whispers to the last and greatest of all human dreams. For a transitory, enchanted moment, man must have held his breath in the presence of this continent compelled into an aesthetic contemplation he neither understood nor desired. Face to face for the last time in history with something commensurate to the capacity for wonder. And as I sat there brooding on the unknown world, I thought of Gatsby's wonder. When he first picked out the green light at the end of Daisy's dock. He had come a long way to this blue lawn. And his dream must have seemed so close that he could hardly fail to grasp it. He did not know that it was already behind him somewhere, back in that vast obscurity beyond the city where the dark fields of the Republic rolled on under the night. Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgiastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eludes us then, but that's no matter. Tomorrow we'll run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning. So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past. So Gatsby, yes, he set up Daisy as this effigy of all the things that he desired. At the very end, it may become a commentary upon how we in the United States have. Like we had this new world. We had this thing that was commensurate to our capacity for wonder, this thing that we wanted. And our country was born on the promise of the West. Now we don't have it anymore. That's gone. So there's something in us that still yearns on for this, I don't know, purposeful adventure, this something that is commensurate with our capacity for wonderful. And we rush towards it when all the time it's behind us. It even talks about the Republic, right? That's thrown in when it's talking about Gatsby's desires. So Gatsby becomes sort of the symbol for America, right? We want this thing that in our heads sounds so awesome, but it's not there anymore. And it's certainly not going to deliver on the promise. Gatsby had what. What Donaldson would have called a moment of great joy. That's what happened on that sidewalk. He tasted that. And then it became incarnated in Daisy, right? The incarnation was complete. That whole feeling, that possibility, all those riches, all those things that he wanted became embodied in her. And he couldn't have it any other way. He wanted her or nothing else. And what's weird is once it's gone, once it's done, he's in a swimming pool and he's looking around and everything has lost that dreamlike quality. It's just material and I think it seemed grotesque. Anyway, that's sort of everything that is happening for me in Great Gatsby, which is cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

Do we have time or do we have to go the in between?

[Thomas Magby]

I think we're at an hour.

[Graham Donaldson]

But I was gonna say, like, to me, I think that that makes sense. I always see Gatsby as like this caution. Not a cautionary tale, but like human beings. And maybe, or maybe it's a. Maybe it's more of a masculine thing because we definitely have this, like, sort of these competing, like Tom and. And Jay from fighting over Daisy. But there's this, like, everybody has this desire that is sort of driving them and motivating them to do something. And everybody needs to get to the place where they can temper and control it or debunk it, or maybe it's debunk it. But it's like if you let it be, it's almost like if you let that animal side of you, the thing that wants and wants. If you. If you let that take control, like, there's no stopping it once it gets going. And then the reality is, is like it's design, its hunger, is so much more than the actual things that you get. Like the things that. That sort of symbolize what it wants. Once it has, it's not enough. Like, once you get Daisy, once you have Daisy, it's not going to be enough. And he, like, Jay doesn't just. When Daisy says, isn't it enough that I say I love you right now? And Jay's like, no, no, no, no, no. You have to have loved me all the time, forever and ever. And that's the only acceptable thing. D is like, can't do that. That's not real, right? And. And that breaks it for Jay. Like Jay Gatsby needs. He's given himself completely over to that desire. This is even going back like Bernays your art, right? Like that mimetic desire you want. You're driven by that thing that you think other people have and that animates you. So everybody needs to get to the place where they can like, like temper it or they can sever the desire from growing further. It's almost like you can't let it, you know, continue to, you know, create roots and spread throughout the entire yard, right? Like, you need to contain it at some point or you're gonna end up dead in your swimming pool. You know, like, you can't. You can't let it run you. You. It's almost. You turn it almost into this, like, animal version of yourself or the whole thing, you lose control.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

That's.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's the thing that I always remember when I read Gatsby is. Is like as the book goes on, it's all. It's got this big veneer of everything being sort of like fun and happy, but as it goes on, it's just like there's this big bottoming out where the whole thing loses control and you real. And they're just like, getting drunk in a hotel room and. And.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And then they have some sort of fight about.

[Graham Donaldson]

Big old fight.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Daisy didn't really intend to do anything.

[Graham Donaldson]

People are getting run over. Tragic things are happening. And you like. Like, you can't even deal with the. With the present tragic thing because of the most previous tragic thing that's just happened in your own life. So you keep driving and it's just like the whole thing is.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Is. And even then, Daisy and Tom are untouchable.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Right. They disappear.

[Graham Donaldson]

That, to me. Yeah. And at the end, they're having this cool little conversation about, like, all right, how do we manage this? How do we deal with this? Like, how are we going to be able to keep our relationship in whatever it is and for whatever reason it exists? How are we going to keep this going? They're going to go on like a fancy trip. Like, of course she's not going to leave Buchanan.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

No, she's definitely not going to leave Buchanan partially. I think there's some weird narcissistic abuse happening there. Tom is clearly not a great guy, but.

[Graham Donaldson]

Of course. But he's also like the guy you marry if you're the. If you're the wealthy girl from, like, the Southern. Like, you marry Tom Buchanan, he's the guy you marry.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And you. You don't marry a guy, manage his philandering somehow.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

And I think when she found out that. That Gatsby had earned all his money through dark means, of course she can no longer marry him. She cannot run away with him. She cannot have that dogging her heels. Like, I think for her, you're gonna.

[Graham Donaldson]

Show up at a party and people are gonna be like, that's Daisy. She's from this old money family and she's with Gatsby.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

A bootlegger.

[Graham Donaldson]

A bootleg. A criminal. A guy who's made his money from, like, you know, crypto or whatever.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, it's got that. It's just, it's got that.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

It's got a mark on it.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's got a mark.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

She can't have that mark. And so now she's, I think that that illusion for her has broken.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Anyway, so it's such a great book.

[A.J. Hannenberg]

But yeah, the prose and just as a note, it's beautiful. The book is gorgeous. He does such a good job of following a couple of the rules of style that I'm cooking up a podcast on for the next few episodes. And yeah, it's, he is incredibly good at writing. So you should read it. It's a fantastic book. Recommend it without reservation.

[Thomas Magby]

Awesome. Well, thank you everyone, for listening. This has been Classical Stuff. You should know. You can find us online at classicalstuff.net you can find us on x.com at classical stuff, C L-S-S-C-A L stuff. You can email us theguyslassicalstuff.net and you can find us on Patreon patreon.com classicalstuff where we have in between episodes, we're going to record one of those right now where we'll keep the conversation going. We also have monthly AMAs and some other bonus content. So check that out. And again, thank you all for listening. Bye.