277: "Emma," by Jane Austen

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know
Episode 277: "Emma" by Jane Austen
Release Date: March 18, 2025
Hosts: A.J. Hanenberg, Graham Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Introduction

In Episode 277 of Classical Stuff You Should Know, hosts A.J. Hanenberg, Graham Donaldson, and Thomas Magbee delve into Jane Austen's novel "Emma". The episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the book's plot, characters, and enduring themes, highlighting Austen's remarkable ability to portray psychologically nuanced and healthy characters.

Plot Summary

The discussion begins with an overview of Emma Woodhouse, a wealthy, beautiful, and clever young woman living in a small village. Graham Donaldson articulates his growing appreciation for Austen's work, emphasizing its depth beyond mere romantic comedies.

Graham Donaldson [00:45]: "But the more that I've read Jane Austen, I'm sort of developing a little bit of a thesis in my mind of why I think Jane Austen is like just sort of important for everybody to read because it paints a picture of like psychologically healthy people."

Emma takes pride in her successful matchmaking, having recently orchestrated the marriage of her governess, Ms. Taylor, to Mr. Weston. Despite her amiable disposition, Emma possesses subtle flaws—mainly her tendency to have things her own way and to think highly of herself.

Thomas Magbee [00:09]: "Hello and welcome to Classical Stuff you Should Know... And I already said we're talking about Jane Austen."

The narrative unfolds with Emma's attempt to pair her friend Harriet with suitable suitors. Initially, she discourages Harriet from considering the earnest and hardworking Mr. Martin, believing Harriet deserves someone of higher social standing. This meddling leads to a series of misunderstandings, including Emma's misinterpretation of Mr. Elton's affections, culminating in his awkward proposal to Emma herself, which she promptly rejects.

A significant subplot involves Jane Fairfax, a poised and accomplished young woman with a mysterious past. Emma's jealousy towards Jane's sophistication and the clandestine engagement between Frank Churchill and Jane further complicate the social dynamics of the village.

The episode meticulously traces Emma's journey through personal crises—such as the infamous trip to Box Hill—which serve as catalysts for her self-realization and growth. These events ultimately lead Emma to understand her true feelings for Mr. Knightley, a steadfast and rational family friend.

Character Analysis

Emma Woodhouse is portrayed as a complex character whose confidence and social adeptness mask deeper insecurities. Her evolution throughout the novel reflects Austen's keen insight into human psychology.

Graham Donaldson [10:13]: "Mr. Woodhouse is like, absolutely not... He's that kind of guy."

Mr. Knightley serves as the moral compass of the story, offering wisdom and guidance to Emma. His interactions with Emma reveal his deep understanding and eventual confession of his feelings toward her.

Harriet Smith represents the naive and impressionable young woman whom Emma attempts to guide, often with misguided intentions. Her eventual realization and decision to marry Mr. Martin underscore themes of self-determination and genuine affection.

Frank Churchill is depicted as charming yet deceitful, using flirtation to mask his true intentions and maintain a secret engagement with Jane Fairfax. His character adds layers of intrigue and complexity to the narrative.

Jane Fairfax embodies grace and resilience, navigating her challenging circumstances with dignity. Her relationship with Emma highlights themes of rivalry, misunderstanding, and eventual mutual respect.

Mrs. Elton serves as a foil to Emma, showcasing how meddling without tact can lead to social awkwardness and resentment from others.

Thematic Insights

A central theme discussed is psychological health, with Graham Donaldson proposing that Austen's characters exemplify balanced and self-aware individuals.

Graham Donaldson [01:13]: "There's a small sort of band upon which the soul you would consider healthy and happy."

The podcast explores how "Emma" portrays the journey from self-deception to self-awareness, emphasizing the importance of conscience and personal growth. The hosts draw parallels between Austen's time and modern psychological theories, noting how the novel prefigures concepts of self-regulation and emotional intelligence.

Graham Donaldson [55:57]: "Emma's own self is revealed to herself before it's too late."

The dynamics of social class and marriage are dissected, revealing Austen's critique of societal expectations and the pursuit of genuine relationships over superficial alliances.

Host Insights and Personal Perspectives

Graham Donaldson shares his academic perspective, likening Austen's work to a study in healthy psychological makeup. He underscores the relevance of Austen's insights in understanding human behavior and relationships.

Graham Donaldson [55:42]: "Emma doesn't go and make everything right... But when she realizes the thing about herself, it's actually the fact that Knightley has already loved her..."

A.J. Hanenberg adds humor and personal anecdotes, enriching the discussion with relatable experiences and highlighting the enduring appeal of Austen's characters.

A.J. Hanenberg [23:23]: "She'll talk for three pages about apples."

Thomas Magbee facilitates the conversation, ensuring a coherent and engaging flow while prompting deeper analysis of key moments in the novel.

Notable Quotes

• Graham Donaldson [01:10]: "There is a thousand ways for the soul to go wrong, but there is just a narrow band upon which the soul you would consider healthy and happy."
• Thomas Magbee [24:16]: "She used to have money."
• A.J. Hanenberg [55:41]: "We all know that. I couldn't have said anything clever, but I can say three dull things as soon as I open my mouth."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on Emma's transformation and the harmonious resolution of her relationships. They emphasize the significance of self-awareness and the ability to adapt, drawing lessons applicable to modern life.

Graham Donaldson [55:57]: "The love people have for her positive characteristics are going to be the things that allow people to, like, quickly want to forgive her."

The hosts express their admiration for Austen's craftsmanship and its relevance in illustrating the complexities of human nature. They hint at future discussions, inviting listeners to engage further through platforms like Patreon.

Thomas Magbee [61:21]: "This has been Classical Stuff you Should Know. You can find us online at classicalstuff.net..."

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Takeaways

• Jane Austen's "Emma" offers a profound exploration of character psychology and social dynamics.
• Emma Woodhouse's journey from manipulation to self-awareness underscores the importance of conscience and personal growth.
• Austen's characters exemplify balanced psychological traits, making her work timeless and relevant.
• Themes of social class, marriage, and self-improvement are intricately woven into the narrative, providing rich material for analysis.
• Host insights reveal the enduring significance of Austen's work in understanding human relationships and personal development.

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Thank you for joining Classical Stuff You Should Know! For more discussions, visit classicalstuff.net, email us at [e-mail], or follow us on Twitter/X @ClassicalStuff.

Transcript

[Thomas Magbee]

Hello and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know, a podcast about books and classical education and Jane Austen. My name is Thomas Magbee. I am joined, as always, by Mr. Graham Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

Hello.

[Thomas Magbee]

And Mr. A.J. hanenberg.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's this guy right here.

[Thomas Magbee]

And I already said we're talking about Jane Austen. So this is going to be Pride and Prejudice part two, part three.

[Graham Donaldson]

Have we done a Pride and Prejudice?

[Thomas Magbee]

I think we did. I think we've done one before. Yeah. And that's the only book that she wrote, right? Yeah. So it's the only one that we can talk about. Really excited to dive back in. Take it away, Graham Donaldson.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, today we are going to be talking about Emma.

[Thomas Magbee]

What?

[Graham Donaldson]

And so Emma, novel by Jane Austen and sort of part of a bigger thing. I've been. So I've now taught. I've now read. I haven't read everything Jane Austen's written, but I've read quite a bit. And this is sort of part of my realization that I think Jane Austen is very important. Not only is she just like, no, no, but she's like, really fun to read. But I feel like in terms of.

[Thomas Magbee]

Isn't this like a. Homework's pretty good. Like, what?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, I get. Maybe so. Okay, maybe this is just my own ignorance, because when I was a kid growing up, in my mind, Jane Austen was like the thing your older sister liked that would watch the five hour BBC things and they were just about like girls falling in love. Like, that was the image I had in my mind is that it's just smooching. It's just smooching. It's just like, you know, 19th century romantic comedies. And that was about it. And it was just, you know, cleverly done and beautiful dresses and gardens and romance and that was all there was to it.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

But the more that I've read Jane Austen, I'm sort of developing a little bit of a thesis in my mind of why I think Jane Austen is like just sort of important for everybody to read because it paints a picture of like psychologically healthy people. So this is. So maybe we'll sort of get to this towards the end of the episode. But that's kind of the thesis, my thesis. So, like, if you have, you know, health, health in a body, right? Like there's a thousand ways that a body can go sick. There are a thousand ways that a body can go wrong. You got too much blood, you got not enough blood. You got, you know, too much bile. Not enough bile or whatever. There's all these different ways that a body can go unhealthy. But there is a small sort of band upon which a body is working the way it's supposed to be. And you would call it healthy. And I think definitely this is not just a Graham theory. This is. This. Plato talks about this, this is true also of the soul, that there is a thousand different ways for the soul to go wrong, but there really is kind of just like a narrow band upon which the soul you would consider healthy and happy. And so much of Jane Austen's work is talking about people who are on the road to unhappiness without maybe even realizing it, realizing it and course correcting and going to happiness. And so that's why I think, like, it's. She's very important to read. And also just sort of really interesting that she comes at the beginning of the 19th century, when that century. The 19th century is the century of psychoanalysis and the century of trying to map, you know, the. All of the, The. The. The conditions of the soul or trying to give framework and language to, you know, narcissism and all. Whatever. Whatever the terms are, right. Like the. Freud's coming in and he's trying to give these categories to different kinds of soul maladies. And the reason I've been thinking of Austin in this way is because I've been teaching her in this class this year, and I've paired her with a book that comes towards the end or the latter half of the 19th century. I paired it with Crime and Punishment, which is a real tone shift between the two of them. But the more that I've sort of been. We've been comparing them together in class. The more I realize, like, Dostoyevsky talks about the soul, the sick soul, the. The, like the paranoid narcissist Ras Kolnikov. And all of Jane Austen's characters are these people that have this. Have similar, like, similar kind of tendencies, albeit very small and very like, undeveloped problems, but, you know, if not, if not course corrected, are sort of on the road to unhappiness. And a lot of the characters sort of realize that partway through the book. So that's why I think Jane Austen actually ends up is not just like fluffy romantic comedies, but is really sort of observant and really understands the human soul very well and how it can go wrong and go well. So we're going to be talking about Emma today, and Emma's. The book starts off with kind of like a tip to be reading the book kind of that way. So Emma is a wealthy, beautiful woman, and she's young, 21, and she lives in this little small town where she is pretty much the, like, preeminent girl in town. And she's rich, but she's not like the high aristocrat of town. There's another family called the Knightleys, who are the Knightley. Mr. Knightley, he owns the estate that employs all the farmers. And Mr. Knightley clearly lives in the, like, the big house, the like Downton Abbey house, right. And he is very much the responsible man who is. Is. Is the big aristocrat. And the. Emma Woodhouse is from a smaller aristocratic family that doesn't own land and doesn't have servants and this kind of stuff, but still lives in this beautiful house anyway. She is rich, she was beautiful. And it starts off with this Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence and had lived nearly 21 years in the world with very little to distress or vex her. So she has had a life where things have always gone right for her. Now, that's not entirely true. She's lost her mom. Her mother has died, but Emma has borne it well. But on that very first couple of paragraphs, Jane Austen points this out about Emma. The real evils, indeed, of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way and a disposition to think a little too well of herself. These were the disadvantages which threatened to alloy her many enjoyments. The danger, however, was at present so unperceived that they did not by any means rank as misfortunes with her. So Emma's sins, insofar as what they are, are so, like, sort of small and baby and undeveloped that you, if you bumped into her and met her, you wouldn't be like, oh, gosh, that woman. Like, she doesn't. She is. She is conceited. No, they're so small and undetectable that you wouldn't rank them as misfortunes, but if left sort of unchecked, they could grow and they could develop into something really bad. Anyway, so we're going to sort of briefly chart the story in his broad strokes, and AJ can help fill in the blanks because he's recently read it, too. And then I kind of want to talk a little bit about just sort of like. Like our last episode with the dude in the. Well, Emma kind of has a couple of moments where herself is revealed to herself.

[Thomas Magbee]

Did y'all read this as a part of Veritas?

[Graham Donaldson]

We do now. It's part of the 12th grade class. Yeah.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh, got it.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The teachers read it as, like, professional development. They wanted us to start reading some of the books of Western canon, which I'm behind. Great idea. And so you could select which one you wanted. So I selected, and Emma was the one. That's cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

So Emma, it starts off, is. Has had a great success in her life in that she has essentially gotten her, like, governess, who ended up being sort of like her surrogate mother who was a couple of years older than her and who sort of helped raise her. She found a match for her, and they got married. And now Ms. Taylor is. Is gone and married. And Emma feels very proud of the fact that she was able to, like, basically get this match together. We don't see how it happened. We don't know how it happened, but we know that Emma was like, hey, Ms. Taylor, have you ever thought about Mr. Actually, no. Mr. Weston. Who ever thought about marrying Mr. Weston or Mr. Weston? Look at Ms. Taylor. Doesn't she look beautiful tonight? And Mr. Weston's like, My gosh, she is. Good heavens.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I never noticed before.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. And so Emma is fresh off the success of having gotten Ms. Taylor and Mr. Wesson married, much to her father. Her. Very dopey. He's not dopey. How would you describe Mr. Woodhouse?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He's a hypochondriac. He is. He.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's glorious.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He's great. He's great. He. He, like, doesn't like to go outside. He doesn't like it when there's a chill. He, like, eats plain oatmeal.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, please.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Porridge.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gruel.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He calls it gruel. And he's like, it's great for the Constitution. I don't know what you guys are eating. All this other stuff. Like, it's. You're gonna get unhealthy. And he doesn't, like. He's not gonna go outside if it's windy, if it's sunny, if it's cold, if it's. Like, he's just so obsessed with good health. And then at one point, Woodhouse, like, wants to go to a party, and he's like, absolutely not. Like, you cannot go to a. Like, seriously think going to a party is a good idea. Like, you will get a chill riding to and from. Like, he's that kind of guy.

[Graham Donaldson]

But there's a fireplace at the party.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He thinks he will. She will be too cold. And she's like, there's a fireplace at the party's. Like, that may be, but you'll have to, like, go in between. And she's like, yes, but there's a carriage to take us in between. So I. You know, it'll be so fast, I will barely feel the field.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's a tiny little subplot where people are eating apples. And he's just like, I can't. I can't fathom how people could eat such unhealthy things such as apples.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

You have to boil them until they're healthy or something.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. So he's got all these ideas about his health, and he's just. He doesn't like. He doesn't like the idea of Emma getting married. He doesn't like the idea of Emma leaving the house. He needs to be slowly convinced of things such that they seem like they're his idea. So if you want him to change his ways, it's gotta be like, hey, I think, like, a holiday at the sea might be fun. He's like, absolutely not. The sea would be terrible. We'd all be dead within a week. And then they'd be like, oh. But this other doctor says it's like, really good for this particular. Like, you know, over time, they just sort of wear him down.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. And Emma is very good at this. And she sort of learned that she can slowly maneuver her father to the conclusions where the father thinks he himself has thought of them. So Emma's very good at this. So this is part of her character.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And it's played by the guy that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Played by.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, like in the show. Oh, in the new. Newer movie. You have seen the new movie. Okay, never mind then.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay. Anyway, and then Mr. Knightley, who is a friend of the family. He is. Also loves Mr. Woodhouse. And he's. He's. He's also very good at sort of appeasing the old man's sort of foibles. Anyway, Emma has me. Recently gotten her. Her old cham. Not a chambermaid, what's it called? Governess. To be married. And so now Emma thinks that she's very good at this. And in fact, she took great delight in bringing people together and making them happy. She has befriended a woman in town who is a couple years younger than her and who has no family and lives in a boarding house. And let's just say Harriet is not the brain surgeon of the community.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She's beautiful and simple.

[Graham Donaldson]

She is beautiful and simple, and she is.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But well meaning.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well meaning. And Harriet will basically agree with the last person who said something, emphatically. And Harriet's like, well, yes, so of.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Course it can be no Other.

[Graham Donaldson]

So Harriet is beautiful but she is very simple and you know, anyway, but she is starstruck with Emma because Emma is this big wealthy aristocratic lady.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Emma's the it girl of town.

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma's the IP girl of town. And Harriet is living in this boarding house. She's about to graduate from school and if she doesn't get married and doesn't have any prospects she's gonna be like, like, you know, a spinster in this boarding house forever. And Harriet doesn't like, is not happy about this. Emma thinks Harriet is too beautiful for this to befall her. And Emma decides that she is going to take up the charge of finding someone to. For to marry Harriet. Harriet has been spent some summer with Mr. Martin who was a simple farmer with big boots. And he's a simple. He's like a 23 year old farming guy and he's, you know, not too. He's not sophisticated and he's. He's just a farmer. But he really loves Harriet and he works hard.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He works hard, manages his farm well.

[Graham Donaldson]

And his, he is a, you know, his farm is on the land of Mr. Knightley. So Mr. Knightley knows him quite well. And Mr. Knightley, who is very rational and very well meaning and very kind has said that Mr. Martin is actually a really great guy even though he's really young. And I don't know why he wants to get married so young. And I don't know why he wants to marry somebody so sort of not a farm wife like Harriet. She can't do anything. She's just pretty.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But I think there you have it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. So Mr. Martin wants to marry her and Mr. Stanley's like I don't really approve of it but if he wants to do it, that's fine. And Emma's like, no, Harriet is not marrying Mr. Martin. Harriet is, but he's a good guy. Harriet is so above Mr. Martin on the social ladder.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I cannot believe that he would deign to try to marry Harriet.

[Graham Donaldson]

Mr. Martin would like be like, so do you like cows? Right, like what are you going to talk about with a farmer? No, Harriet is destined for greatness because she's also my friend and she's so beautiful. There's this great scene where Mr. Knightley and Emma have this argument where m. Where it turns out that EMMA has actually Mr. Martin proposes and Harriet, who does not know how to make a decision for herself, comes to Emma and says what do I do? What do I do? And Emma's like, well, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But if you marry Mr. Martin, it's a shame we won't be able to be friends anymore because obviously he's a farmer. He can't come to my fancy house as a farmer. This is weird. And you can't come to all the parties that I go to. And. And then there's. She has other reason to suspect that there's somebody else that likes Harriet. And basically, she tells Harriet. She doesn't tell Harry what to do, but she tells Harriet what to do. And Harriet rejects poor Mr. Martin.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And her protest is pretty much like, yeah, but he's poor.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, he's. He's a farmer. Mr. Knightley finds out about this and is very upset with Emma and thinks that she is meddling because Mr. Martin is great. Mr. Martin is great.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He works hard. He manages his farm. He's got virtues up and down. He's a great. Mr. Martin is classy and awesome.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yep. Even though he's not sophisticated, he reads. He, like, lent Harriet a book, and they kind of flirted over the book.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. He's not a dummy. He just doesn't have a whole lot of money.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. And Mr. Knightley says, like, you know, that Harriet should have married Mr. Martin. In fact, Mr. Martin, for whatever reason, wants to marry Harriet, even though he could do better than Harriet, but he loved her and so he should marry her. And Emma says, but Harriet is too beautiful. She can marry so much higher above her. And they argue that Harriet should be marrying. Yeah, she can marry this other man.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Because Knightley also knows that Harriet doesn't really have anything to fall back on. Yeah. To, like, promote her to a higher marriage. Right. She doesn't have a. She doesn't have a great family. She doesn't have a big fortune. She's, you know, she's just pretty.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Emma says being just pretty is a massive card to play in the marketplace of love. Knightley. And Knightley's like, no, men consider all these other things. And Emma's like, yeah, when men are philosophical about love, then I'll believe you. But trust me, men will marry a pretty face. And Harriet's got a great card to play, and she will be able to marry up.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The funny thing is that she, you know, she feels like Mr. Martin is so much below her. He reads. And Emma has all these books she intends to read.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But she never reads, but doesn't actually read them.

[Graham Donaldson]

Although there's one where she's shamed by her rival, where she doesn't know how to play piano as well as her and doesn't read as well as her, that she, like, tries to read for an afternoon. It's like, oh, so boring.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And then she, she. And then. But she does practice the piano really hard for, like, two hours.

[Graham Donaldson]

For two hours, yes. Anyway, Knightley and Emma kind of argue about this because Emma is convinced that the local new Vicar in town, Mr. Elton, is in love with Harriet. And the reason for this is Mr. Melton. Mr. Elton is always hanging around when Emma and Harriet are there. And Emma's like, this is happening. This is going to happen.

[Thomas Magbee]

What do you say? Well, Emma and Harriet. Okay, great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Now, well. And she's like, this is going to happen. And, and, and so Emma says that she's going to paint a picture of Harriet and Mr. Elton is going to come observe. And Mr. Elton's there is like, oh, Emma, this is the most amazing portrait I've ever seen. Look at the beauty.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Look at the figure.

[Graham Donaldson]

The line captured her face. And Emma's like, this guy's got a bed for Harriet. And he's like.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like he gushes over a painting and.

[Graham Donaldson]

He'S gushing over it. There is this other little subplot that has to do. We're not going to do the entire book that has to do with, like, they have this little scrapbook of poems. And Mr. Elson submits a poem, and it seemingly is about Harriet, although it talks about the keenness of mind. And Emma's like, that can't be about Harriet. But a man in love can say all sorts of things, all sorts of stuff. And anyway, so Emma is convinced. And so she steers Harriet away from marrying Mr. Martin because she's pretty convinced that Mr. Elton will marry Harriet and tells Mr. Knightley so. And Knightley's like, There ain't no way Mr. Elton will never marry down. And Emma's like, Harriet's gorgeous and Mr.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Sometimes Hot People are great.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sometimes hot people are great. And Mr. Knightley's like, Trust me, Mr. Elton will always try to marry up. And Emma's like, there's no way. Anyway, long story short, turns out it's Christmas time. They're coming home from the party that AJ made reference to that Mr. Woodhouse didn't want to go to because there was a little bit of snow on the ground. And he's like, lamenting that there's going. It's like the end of the world, like, apocalyptic snow.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

We will never get out of the house.

[Graham Donaldson]

And it's like a dusting on the ground. There's this hilarious scene where they're all, like, wringing their hands and wondering if they'll ever get the horses out. And meanwhile, Mr. Knightley goes out and gets all the carriages. He's like, all right, let's go. And then Mr. Knightley takes Mr. Woodhouse home to calm him down in the carriage. And Emma is left alone in the carriage with Mr. Elton. And Mr. Elton has a delightfully cringy scene. Where he professes his deep and dying love. Oh, Harriet couldn't make it to the party because she was sick. He professes his deep, undying love for Emma. And Emma's like, say what? No. What you talking about?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You like Harriet.

[Graham Donaldson]

You live in Harriet. He's like, miss Smith. Harriet. Who can think of Miss Smith when Miss Woodhouse is around? Says, Mr. Elton. And Emma's like, oh, dear. This did not go.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, she totally misread the painting thing. Like, he even took the painting and was like, I'm gonna go, like, get this. Was it, like, in a gallery or something? He was gonna take it and give it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Get it framed.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Get it framed. And he, like. It's like, I have such a precious cargo. Well, it was because Emma painted it, not because it was. It wasn't the subject. Yes. And so Emma, like, misread it so hard. And the funny thing is, you get hints of this as a reader.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Like, as he's standing there being like, look at the sure lines and the. Like, you've captured her face perfectly. I'm like, oh, no. He likes her. He likes Emma.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Emma does not realize it.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And it's just like watching a crash in slow motion over the course of about 40 pages. And I'm just like, this is going to be a disaster.

[Graham Donaldson]

So Mr. Elton proposes to Emma in the carriage. Emma, like, pretty, flatly turns him down hard. And it was like, no, you're in love with Harry. And he's like, what? No. And then the carriage ride goes on for, like, four minutes of abject silence. And it's wonderful. And then Mr. Elton gets out and promptly leaves the village on, like, a sabbatical.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He's like, I'm gone.

[Graham Donaldson]

I gotta go. All right. Emma goes to Harriet and has to break the news. The boy who I thought was in love with you is in love with me. Sorry, Harriet. And Harriet has Now turned on Mr. Martin. And Harriet is just beside herself because she was in love with Mr. Elton. Or @ least in the idea. The book says that Harriet is the type of girl that when she falls in love, she will never fall out of love. Once loved and once she's loved. She's just going to have to love somebody. So Harriet's, like, sort of weepy and brokenhearted for, like, most of the book, and then show Harry, but she's one.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Where, like, if you direct that love to a new place. Oh, yeah, you gotta. You just gotta guide it somewhere.

[Graham Donaldson]

So Harriet is in a rough spot, and Mr. Knightley is kind of ticked at Emma because he did all this. And Emma's like, whatever, it was an honest mistake. Whatever. Harry will just have to find somebody else. All right. Meanwhile, rumors have it that this young man is coming to. Oh, Emma has said that she's never going to marry. She says there's a lot. She can't leave her father never gonna. She doesn't want to marry.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She doesn't feel compelled to.

[Graham Donaldson]

She doesn't feel compelled. She's wealthy, she's educated. She has purpose and meaning and friends. She doesn't really feel compelled to marry, but if she was going to marry, she would marry a man like Frank Churchill. And so there's this guy named Frank Churchill, and he is Mr. Weston. The guy that married Emma's governess is his son, but doesn't have his Mr. Weston's name because he was basically brought up by Mr. Weston's first wife's family, who are, like, super rich. Like, weird rich. You know, when you're so rich, you're weird. It was like that kind of family, the Churchills, anyway.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So rich you can't, like, interact with other people normally.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Because you could literally buy everything they own.

[Graham Donaldson]

So, like, Knightley is wealthy, but he is a good patron to all of his. To all of his farmers. And Emma is wealthy, but she lives in this small little village. But the Churchills, like, live in, like, space stations, you know, they don't even. They don't live with human beings. So they're so rich, they're off on their crazy estates. And Frank Churchill was raised by this family that Mr. Weston had married into. Then his wife died. And because Mr. Weston was lower born, the Churchills want nothing to do with Mr. Weston. But we'll take your grandchild. We'll take our grandchild. Thank you very much. And they raised Frank, and Frank is supporting, as proposed, to be purported. Sorry to be, like, charming and funny and affable and a bit of a dandy. And he's, like, 23, and he is foppish and unfunny, and he comes blows into town because his father has gotten married. Although he didn't come quickly enough, according to Mr. Knightley. Mr. Knightley's like, your dad just got married and you haven't come to town to meet your new mother in law. That's. That's like, not cool. And Emma's like, but he's busy and he's rich and cool. He can't, you know, he can't.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Got stuff to do.

[Graham Donaldson]

You got stuff to do. He's got like dandy rich boy things.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And he also has a mom who is reportedly a shrew.

[Graham Donaldson]

An aunt, his Grandmother, the. The Mrs. Churchill.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. So the, the elder, the matron Churchill is a horror, apparently, and keeps Frank.

[Graham Donaldson]

Essentially under lock and key.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right. So Frank blows into town and he is all sunshine and good and like, jokes and robs Mr. Knightley the wrong way. And Emma and flirts with Emma, is just a big flirt with Emma. And Emma, of course, loves being flirted with. And she is convinced that Frank is kind of falling for her. And she's never going to marry Frank Churchill, but if she was going to marry somebody, she would marry somebody like Frank Churchill. There's other characters, other people that are important in the story. Emma is frequents the house of a woman who has sort of an unfortunate life named Ms. Bates. And A.J. how would you describe Ms. Bates?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, she's a chatter. She'll tell you a whole lot of things you didn't really want to know. Like, she will talk for three pages about apples.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right. I gave my students a. An essay on Emma and they have to write 2,000 words, which is a pretty beefy essay. And someone said, I'm just gonna write my essay on Ms. Bates and quote.

[Thomas Magbee]

Her at length the entire time.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, there's. She'll. She will like walk into the house already talking. You know what I mean?

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly. And she's.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I said if he was gonna take his pie, he better leave it outside. Pie cooled outside is better than pie cooled inside. And he gave me all his apples, which I thought was very nice. It was very nice of him to give us all his apples. It wasn't just some of his apples. It was all of his apples. What is he gonna do for pies in the sprint?

[Graham Donaldson]

Like, just like that, for pages, Pages.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And pages and pages.

[Graham Donaldson]

Everybody has to suffer her. But she is all. She is very thankful for, all the attention she gets. And she is of the situation where she has no money and she has an elderly mother.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She used to have money. Isn't that the thing?

[Graham Donaldson]

So it kind of worked like this. She grew up in sort of a more noble family. She never got married and has kind of been living off her dowry. Her mother is elderly and lives with them. And Ms. Bates had a sister who married a military man named Fairfax, and they had a daughter named Jane. And the military Fairfax family. He died saving somebody, like, died in battle saving a general. And then miss the moment a mama Fairfax died of a broken heart, left Jane, baby Jane, basically fatherless and motherless. And the general, out of. Out of sort of thankfulness, decided to raise Jane Fairfax in his house. Okay. And so then Jane Fairfax is now back in town, and she is pretty much Emma's age. And she is purported to be the most accomplished and beautiful young woman in England, at least according to Knightley. Knightley says that she is so charming and sophisticated. She plays piano like a concert pianist. She is very beautiful. She's very.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She's demure.

[Graham Donaldson]

She's very demure. She's very reserved, very elegant. And whereas Emma is a little bit gregarious and is in people's business, Jane will never get in anybody's business. Emma can kind of play the piano, but hasn't really been dedicated. Hasn't really, like, dedicated herself to play.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She can play, but she doesn't practice.

[Graham Donaldson]

She doesn't practice. So she can play, like, you know, little fun country dance songs and every. And like, maybe some, like, classical music. But Jane will make you weep by playing the piano. And Jane comes back to town because the family that she's with is sort of like life's. Jane's growing up and life's moving on, and she's not gonna be able to stay with the family very long. And, you know, she's been educated, and now it's like, all right, Jane, like we raised you. Go find out your life. And the only thing Jane has open to her is maybe going and being a governor's for a rich family. And for Jane, this is miserable. In fact, Jane, at one point in the books, Associates, she says she doesn't know what's worse, the transatlantic slave trade or being a governess, which is very funny. Maybe it's not funny, but it's. It's. Jane is not happy about this future. Yeah, she's back in town, and Emma is kind of jealous of Jane, and she's pretty sure that Jane is back and that there's a. There's clearly a dark cloud hanging over Jane. And she thinks that Jane has had some kind of illicit love affair with somebody back where she grew up. And she thinks. So she sort of pieces it together. She's pretty sure that Jane had fallen in love with a man named Mr. Dixon. And Mr. Dixon is now marrying the daughter of the General. So Jane grew up with this girl. And Emma's convinced that she and Mr. Dixon had this, like, secret smoochy love affair. But then Mr. Dixon is now marrying, basically, the girl Jane grew up with. And Jane is coming here to cry. That's.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And she's getting out of Dodge to sort of get over the.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Terrible.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Jane's like, well, isn't that delicious? Perfect. Ms. Fairfax has this, like, scandalous past. A bunch of things happen in the book that sort of lead Emma to believe this is true. A mysterious piano shows up at her house. A very, like, ostentatious Emma's house.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

At Jane's house.

[Graham Donaldson]

At Jane's house. This is, like, very fancy piano that should not be in poor Ms. Bates's, like, hallway.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And, like, it costs as much as the house.

[Graham Donaldson]

It costs as much as the house. And it's like, you can't really fit there. And Jane is obviously embarrassed. And Mr. Knightley thinks that that's very. Mr. N is like, why whoever gave that present is a fool. Because it's. Yes, it's nice because Jane loves the piano, but it's like, it's a burden. You've just given them a present that's a burden. That's not very thoughtful.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Emma's like.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Especially because she's sort of just visiting, Right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. Yeah. She's not even here for a long time. She's just visiting until she gets a job.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Jane's like, oh, a fancy piano, huh? And so she's pretty convinced that Mr. Dixon sent it. Anyway, long story short, Mr. Elton comes back into town with a wife and his. And Ms. Augusta Elton. Wow. And. And she. Augusta Elton comes in, and she's definitely new money. And she is. She is also meddling, and she is in people's business. And the more you read it, the more you realize that Mrs. Elton is, like, the potential future Emma if Emma kind of becomes more unbearable. Or if Emma didn't have, like, the good graces to soften her meddling. Like, Emma's clever and coy enough to be able to make her meddling, you know, charming and amusing. Mrs. Elton does not have these gifts.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. She calls people by their first name, which people don't like. Everyone's like, how can she so presume Jane?

[Graham Donaldson]

She calls Mr. Knightley Knightley.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Or Mr. King, which is very funny.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And so that's really funny. And pretty quickly, I realized that so Augusta, she sort of adopts Jane as her project, which is exactly what Emma had done with Harriet. And then the funny thing is Emma hates this woman.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Emma does not like this woman and.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Complains about all the things she's doing while Emma sort of does the same thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Emma's like, why would Jane like Jane really? Is this like this really stand up person? Why would Jane like stand being with Mrs. Elton? And nightly points out, well, it's either that or Ms. Bates. Right. And Ms. Bates chats all the time. So maybe nut Jane just wants a chance to go off and cuz like.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You don't hang out with her.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Mrs. Elton is trying to like figure stuff out for Jane. And you know what, Emma, you don't hang out with Jane even though you're the same age and you guys should be friends and everyone sort of assumes you should be friends because you grew up in the same village and you're the same age and you just don't want to hang out with her. And Emma's like, oh, that's true. And Emma feels kind of bad. Did you guys ever have.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Emma was a little bit like jealous. Right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma's super jealous of Jane.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Now did you guys ever have that experience where like your parents really wanted you to be friends with somebody like at your school in your neighborhood and you really didn't want to be friends with that person?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, it was like, yeah, they would, they would. They're friends with the parents and you know, it just doesn't work between the kids. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

[Graham Donaldson]

And this is what everyone thinks Jane and Emma should be.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. I think my experience was my parents had to like get rid of a few of my friends because they were bad influences.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, there you go. That's fun. Like, like down a well.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Whoops.

[Thomas Magbee]

Last episode.

[Graham Donaldson]

Good y. So anyway, Mr. Knightley's like, well, you know, you could be nicer to Jane and maybe be her friend. And Jane, I mean, Emma really tries to be nicer to Jane, but she just can't do it. And Jane really is not like into it because Jane's pretty quiet and still reserves pretty quiet and reserved. And they're also like, Jane seems to have it out for Emma just a little bit. There's something about Emma and Emma just assumes it's because she's rich and, and because she's got things going for her and you know, so Emma realizes that Jane kind of like, you know, is kind of snappy at her. And I was like, what do I do to You. You know Emma's not into it. Right. I'm trying to think how much detail to give into this. As the book goes on, someone makes the reference that she thinks that Mrs. Weston thinks that maybe Frank or, sorry, maybe Mr. Knightley is in love with Jane. And Emma's like, oh, gosh, I've never thought about that. And she sort of observes and watches, and she's like, oh, my goodness, maybe he is. And later on, she confronts Knightley about it, and Knightley's like, although I think Jane is a wonderful woman, she is a little too shy, a little too reserved for me. But I don't. I don't like her that way. And I was like.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

He says he prefers, like, an open disposition.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right. He's like. And so Emma's like, See, Mrs. Weston, leave the matchmaking to people who know what they're doing. Clearly, you don't have an eye for this kind of thing. Well, the whole, like, Mr. Elton and Harry thing, but that was. That was like, you know, that was just a one little outlier.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

As the book goes on, Frank is more and more flirty with Emma to the point where Emma's worried that one day Frank's going to propose to her and she's going to have to turn him down. Because there was.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

There was. There was. There was a time when she was kind of into it.

[Graham Donaldson]

She was into it, but she was like. She just really liked being flirted with.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

As we all do.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And she never really fell in love with him.

[Graham Donaldson]

She never really fell in love with him. And then Frank had to go away, and he came to Emma and was like, so you probably suspected by now. And I was like, oh, crap, here it is. And then he stops. And then he kind of, like, laughs it off. And then someone comes in the room, and then he's like, well, bye. And he leaves. And Emma's like, okay, at least I didn't have to, like, reject this poor man. Frank goes off. You know, time goes on. We missed. And then eventually, Jane is found. Mrs. Elton finds a position for Jane at a governess of some, like, someone's house. That sounds just crappy, like, it's not going to be fun. It's like Mrs. Living with Mrs. Elton's best friend, teaching their little, like, monsters. So Jane is not happy about this and is, like, sort of sick and wasting away. Frank comes back for the spring, and everyone's so happy to see Frank again that they decide what they're going to do is they are going to have this. They're going to go on this big, like, fun outing. They're gonna go on this hiking trip to a place called Box Hill. And Frank is. Is back. And Jane is, like, just wasting away because of her future. The Eltons are super happy because they've, like, done such a good thing for poor Miss Fairfax, Miss Bates, Knightley, Jane. The Eltons, Emma and Frank all go on this trip. Oh, and Harriet all go on this trip.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The whole crew goes up on this mountain. Even Mr. Woodhouse goes, and they sort of convince him that it's good for him and then put him in a little appy.

[Graham Donaldson]

They put him in a little carriage and a little. Yeah, they sort of, like, put umbrellas over him and put him in a.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Room and put some stuff over his head. And then they're like.

[Graham Donaldson]

They feed him sandwiches and he's fine.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah, sounds great.

[Graham Donaldson]

So they all go to this hill, and the whole time, it was like two groups had decided they wanted to do this. And when they both found out that they did, they decided to merge the groups. But then sort of partway through the trip, they realized we're not really, like, this is. We all had different ideas of what this day was, and no one's really getting along, and. And. And no one's really leading this thing. And the whole time, Frank is just openly flirting with Emma, and Emma is openly flirting back with Frank. And everyone's just sort of sitting there watching this flirt game happen, and they're not into it. And Frank's like, man, this party sucks. Let's play a game. Let's play a flatter Emma game. And everyone's like, I don't want to play that game bad. And then Frank's like, okay, well, let's play a guess what we're thinking game. And Knightley says, do you really want to guess what I'm thinking, Frank? And Frank's like, oh, yeah, maybe let's not do that. And then he's like, let's play a game somewhat. You. You have to say something clever. Two things kind of clever or three not clever things.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Mrs. Bates says, oh, thank goodness. We all know that. I. I couldn't have said anything clever, but I can say three unclever things, you know, quickly. And Emma says, now, Ms. Bates, you know, you have to keep it to only three.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And like, she's like, I'm not worried that you could say three things. I'm worried that, like, you won't be able to stop at just three.

[Thomas Magbee]

Hey, what the heck?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And then, like, a It is like it is.

[Graham Donaldson]

And I. We should probably read the scene. But I, you know, I don't want to find it.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Pass me the book, I'll do it.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, I know where it is. Let's find it. So. And miss. And so it is.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's terrible.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

It's a low blow.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is a low blow. So let's see if I can find it.

[Thomas Magbee]

Haven't you said Emma's like a higher station than.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yes, she's a higher station than Ms. Bates.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I'll read the thing.

[Thomas Magbee]

That's terrible.

[Graham Donaldson]

So. So Here, here. So here's Frank standing up. Here are seven of you besides myself, who she is pleased to say, am very entertained already. And she only demands. Oh, he's saying that Emma demands this of you. She only demands from each of you either one thing very clever, be it prose or verse, original or repeated, or two things moderately clever, or three things very dull indeed, and she engages to laugh heartily at them all. Oh, oh, very well. Exclaimed Ms. Bates. Then I need not be uneasy. Three things very dull indeed. That will do just for me, you know. I shall be sure to say three dull things as soon as ever I open my mouth. Shantai. Hahaha. She looks around with the most good humored dependence on everyone's assent.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

So she's already like poking fun at herself.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right. So she knows she's a little. Do you not all think I shall? Emma could not resist. Ah, ma'am, but there may be a difficulty. Pardon me, but you will be limited as to number. Only three at once. Ms. Bates, deceived by the mock ceremony of her manner, did not immediately catch her meaning, but when it burst on her, it could not. Anger, though a slight blush showed that it could pain her. Ah, well, to be sure. Yes, I see what she means, turning to Mr. Knightley. And I will try to hold my tongue. I must make myself very disagreeable or she would not have said such a thing to an old friend.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Oh, and the worst thing is like, don't they after this they kind of go on a walk and the whole time Miss Bates is like justifying Emma and saying like she must be having a bad day, or she has a headache, or like she just says in the only way.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, she says Emma must be the greatest of all creatures if she comes and visits me so frequently, even though I annoy her so much, it's just so like. And so this is going on and then at this point people are like we're out of here. And they get up and they go for A walk. And then Frank and Jane have this weird exchange where Frank says something and Jane, just absolutely backhanded, cuts him with something that she said to him. And Frank's like, ha ha ha ha. And Jane Fairfax is not happy about this whole situation.

[Thomas Magbee]

Does Emma realize she messed up?

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma feels kind of. She doesn't at this point. But then Mr. Knightley comes up to Emma and remember, they're old family friends.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, she's known him pretty much her whole life.

[Graham Donaldson]

He says, emma. So Knightley comes up and says, emma, I must once more speak to you as I've been used to. A privilege rather endured than allowed, perhaps, but I must still use it. I cannot see you acting wrong without a remonstrance. How could you be so unfeeling to Ms. Bates? How could you be so insolent in your wit to a woman of her character, age, and situation? Emma. I had not thought it possible. Emma recollected, blushed, but was sorry, but tried to laugh it off. Nay, how could I help saying what I did? Nobody could have helped it. It was not so very bad. I dare say she did not even understand me. I assure you she did. She felt your full meaning. She has talked of it since. I wish you could have heard how she talked of it with such candor and generosity. I wish you could have heard her honoring your forbearance and being able to pay her such attentions as she was forever receiving from yourself and your father when her society must be so irksome. Oh, cried Emma, I know there is not a better creature in the world, but you must allow that when that what is good and what is ridiculous are most unfortunately blended in her. They are blended, said he, I acknowledge. And were she prosperous, I would allow I could allow much for the occasional prevalence of the ridiculous over the good. Were she a woman of fortune, I could leave every harmless absurdity to take its chance. I would not quarrel with you for any liberties of manner, were she or equal in situation. But, Amma, consider how far this is from being the case. She is poor. She has sunk from the comforts she has been born to, and if she lives to an old age, must probably sink more. Her situation should secure your compassion. It was badly done indeed. You, whom she has known from an infant, whom she has seen grow up from a period when her notice was an honor, to have you now in thoughtless spirits and the pride of the moment laugh at her, humble her, and before her niece, too, and before others, many of whom, certainly some, would be entirely guided by your treatment. Of her that is not pleasant to you. Emma probably talking about Frank, who would probably take up the game, and maybe even Harriet, who always just sort of like does what Emma does. That is not pleasant to Emma, and it is far from pleasant to me. But I must, I will. I will tell you truths while I can. Satisfied with proving myself your friend by very faithful counsel and trusting that you will sometime or other do me greater justice than you do now. So he kind of gives em a bit of a dressing down. Emma takes it feels terrible. Goes to the carriage with Harriet on the car, in the carriage ride home and just. Emma just cries her eyes out in the carriage. And Harriet's like, what do I do? What do I do? Yeah. While she's in the carriage, while Emma is just bawling her eyes out.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And rightly so.

[Graham Donaldson]

And rightly so.

[Thomas Magbee]

Does Emma make it right?

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma does.

[Thomas Magbee]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma goes to Ms. Bates's house and she somewhat apologized. She doesn't say what I've done was really terrible. But just by going to the house and. And sitting for tea and being very kind and being. And being there, it's clear that Emma has sort of apologized and has felt bad on this. Even though Jane Fairfax is like. Like not cool with Jane. Like. Or not cool with Emma, like, you know, because of, like just the whole thing. Yes, because of this. And is this a period when Jane.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Tries to visit or when Emma tries to visit and Jane just shuts her out?

[Graham Donaldson]

Emma tries to visit Jane and Jane is like, oh, she's in disposed. She can't. She's not seeing anybody. She's not feeling well. But then it turns out she's meeting other people and she's going for walks in the hills. And Emma is, you know, has. As, you know, does not. She's like, what did I do to make Jane so mad? All right, a couple of other things happen. There's this weird scene where Harry gets attacked by Gypsies and she's rescued by Frank. Okay. And not by Frank.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

By Knightley.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, by Frank. By Frank Churchill. Because Emma's like, oh, you're gonna fall in love now.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

I thought it was nightly.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's Frank Churchill. So Frank Churchill saves. Saves Harriet from Gypsies. And later on, Harriet says, emma, I'm in love again. And Emma's like, don't tell me. I know who it is. It's. And Emma thinks it's Frank. Trust me.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Are you sure? I'm so dubious.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's fine. You both be dubious. And so Emma is sorry. Harriet is rescued by Frank. Churchill. And Emma thinks that that would be the greatest beginning to a love story ever. And Frank is foppish and rich, and Harry's beautiful. What could. What could. What could?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

You're right. It was Mr. Knightley that saved Harriet at the dance, correct?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes. Mr. Knightley had been very kind to Harriet by dancing with her when Mr. Elton, who is now married, refused to dance with her. And so there's this whole thing there.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

That's right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Harriet says she's in love again, but she doesn't want to say who. And Emma's like, you don't need to tell me, girl. And Emma's pretty sure it's Frank Churchill. Okay. Then we find out. Then old lady Churchill dies, and Frank is gone. And he comes back, the.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The shrew.

[Graham Donaldson]

The old shrew. And. And Jane is about to go off on her. On her, you know, her being a teacher. Frank comes back. Turns out Frank and Jane have been secretly engaged this whole time.

[Thomas Magbee]

Wow. There's a twist.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, it was a huge twist, man. And foppish young Frank Churchill and. And demure, beautiful, sophisticated Jane Fairfax have been secretly engaged.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And Frank, literally the entire time, he's been tell.

[Graham Donaldson]

He's been flirting with Emma to throw people off the scent. And plus, he kind of just likes the fact that he's. He and Jane have this secret that no one knows. And by flirting with Emma, he's almost. He's kind of, like, looking at Jane and being like. And Jane does not like this. She thinks that it's really mean. And. But of course, Emma's flirting back, which is why Jane's not cool with Emma.

[Thomas Magbee]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Emma is, like, absolutely scandalized. She's like, you think you know somebody.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And the piano, by the way, was. Was from Frank the whole time.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And he even, like, talked with Emma about, like, who could possibly have done this, you know, and they're, like, cooking up all these theories about some other love affair when the entire time it was.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Frank's like, oh, tell me more. And she's like, I think it's Mr. Dixon. And he's like, delightful. He just loves it, right? Yes, he loves it because this. And so then Emma finds this about Frank, and she's like, how can somebody be so cruel? Like, Emma thought that she and Frank were part of this inside joke about Jane. It turns out that Emma's the joke, and she feels betrayed and disgusted, and she's just like, I thought Frank was a man, and she's upset with him, and. But then she sort of Realizes that, like, you know, she doesn't really. She has a heart. She can't read people like she thought she could.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, crap. Poor Harriet. She's in love with Frank. So she goes to Harriet, and she's like, here, girl, I got some bad news. The boy you're in love with is marrying Jane. And she's like, oh, Knightley's marrying Jane. And Harry's like, no, no, no, no. Frank's marrying Jane. And she's like, oh, I'm in love with Mr. Knightley. He saved me at the dance. And he's so dreamy. And you did encourage me, Emma. You did say that even though I was poor, that someone of higher class could love me. And I love him, and I think I deserve it. And she's like, Harriet starts.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And wasn't there a time when she said, like, when Emma assumed that she loved Frank? Frank. That Emma sort of like, nudge nudging?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. She's like, go for it, girl. That could totally happen. And Harriet's like, with your encouragement, I'm. I'm gonna go for it. And something in Emma changes. And hearing Harry, she's like, so all of a sudden, all of these various crises. Box Hill. Frank is actually with Jane. Harriet is in love with Knightley, not Frank. Emma realizes that she doesn't have the gift of being able to read people, right?

[Thomas Magbee]

Yes.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She's not as good as she thought.

[Graham Donaldson]

She's not as good at this. And when she hears that Harriet. And then she sort of starts going back in her mind, she's like, holy crap. Knightley danced with Harry at the dance. Nightly. Has been walking with Harriet a lot on our walks together. And in fact, Knightley had said to Emma, he's like, you know what, Emma? I used to think Harriet was an airhead, but she's actually kind of cool, girl. And she's not as dumb as I thought she was.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And he prefers an open disposition.

[Graham Donaldson]

I do prefer an open disposition to Jane. And Emma realizes, oh, my word. Harriet Knightley, you know, he's just the kind of guy that won't care what people think if he goes and marries a poor girl. And then Harry. Emma realizes the thought of not having Mr. Knightley in her life just breaks her heart. And then she realizes that she's in.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Love with Mr. Knightley and has been the whole time. It's just like a. Oh, no. I'm desperately in love. This is so good.

[Graham Donaldson]

So she was extremely angry with herself. If she could have been angry with Frank Churchill, too, it would have been Dreadful. As for Jane Fairfax, she might have at least relieved her feelings from any present solicitude on her account. Harriet would be anxiety enough she need no longer be unhappy about Jane, whose troubles and whose ill health, having, of course the same origin, must be equally under cure. Her days of insignificance and evil were over. She would. She, Jane, would soon be well and happy and prosperous. Emma could now imagine why her own attentions had been slighted. The discovery laid many smaller matters open. And this is. This is sort of the. And so then she. She finds out. So she finds out that Harriet is in love with. With Knightley. And she freaks out. And then she hears this. Emma's. As soon as Harry tells her, it says, Emma's eyes were instantly withdrawn and she sat silently, meditating in a fixed attitude for a few minutes. A few minutes were sufficient for making her acquainted with her own heart. A mind like her, oh, like hers, once open to suspicion, made rapid progress. She touched, she admitted. She acknowledged, the whole truth. Why was it so much worse that Harriet should be in love with Mr. Knightley than with Frank Churchill? Why was the evil so dreadfully increased by Harriet's having some hope of a return? It darted through her with the speed of an arrow that Mr. Knightley. Mr. Knightley must marry no one but herself. Her own conduct, as well as her own heart was before her. In the same few minutes, she saw it all with a clearness which she had never. Which had never blessed her before. We'll sort of briefly finish the story, but it's that line that I kind of want to. I want to talk about for the rest of our time. The story finishes where Mr. Knightley comes to Emma's house. And Mr. Knightley is really up. Is really nervous to talk to Emma because Knightley is like, I need to tell you something. Frank Churchill is marrying Jane. And Emma's like, I know, and I'm cool with it. And he's like, you're cool with it? I thought you were in love with Frank. She's like, nah, it's like being flirted with. And then Knightley's like, okay, this is good. This is. This is okay. So you're not in love with Frank. And then. And then it turns out that. That they mentioned the whole thing about Harriet and. And they find out who Harriet's family was. It was no one fancy, right? And Mr. Knightley is not going to marry Harry because It turns out Mr. Knightley has always been in love with Emma.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

But I love how it goes because they're There they're like walking and he goes, okay, so now that we've solved the Frank thing, I have something I need to talk to you about. And she's like, yeah. And she is fully convinced that he loves Harriet. And so she is like, okay, I think I know what you're gonna say. And please don't, like, let's just not talk about it. Let's go in. And like, I just, like, you can keep it to yourself. I'd rather not do it. And she just like full on shuts him down.

[Graham Donaldson]

Another moment where Emma thinks that she knows what's going on and almost ruins it by like, you know, by. By leaning into the narrative she has in her mind.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. He very obviously wants to tell her that he's in love with her, but she thinks he's going to say, like, I'd love your. Like, I'd love to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Your dopey best friend.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah, your dopey best friend. And she's like, let's just not. Let's just not. Let's just not do it. Like, let's go inside. Good day to you. Good day. And then she like, walks in and then she comes out like two minutes later convinced that she has been sort of like, cruel again. She's like. And must like, suffer the, the. The heaviness of being told that he loves somebody else. And she's like, I'm sorry I cut you off. You can tell me what you need to tell me. Like, I'm ready for it.

[Thomas Magbee]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

And he's like, you sure? She's like, Cause a second ago. And she's like, yeah. And he's like, okay, I just. You just gotta tell me there's a chance. Like, I know you're into other people. Like, I just wanna know that there's like a version somewhere down the line where like, you love me. And she's like, muah. Like, it's just, it's adorable.

[Graham Donaldson]

The complete inversion of the Mr. Elton scene. Scene, Right?

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So then she and Mr. Knightley are in love. But there's a huge problem. Two problems. Harriet and Mr. Woodhouse. To make a long story short, those problems were solved with Mr. Martin comes out of the woodwork again and decides he's gonna take a second shot at proposing to Harriet.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yep. And this has been away for a little while. Like, Harry got a bad tooth and.

[Graham Donaldson]

She had to go to London to get it fixed.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Yeah. So she hangs out with Mr. Martin a lot. They go to dinner and then like right after the dinner, he's like, marriage Time again. Let's make this happen.

[Graham Donaldson]

And Harriet's no longer by Emma. And Harriet's like, I can make my own decisions. And then she marries Mr. Martin. Good.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Great. And, like, for real good for that. Mr. Martin is the. Is maybe the only character I actually like.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, I love Knightley. Nightly's the best we can talk about in the. In between. Yeah, okay. And then Mr. Woodhouse, of course, Emma's like, we can't leave my dad. He's not going to move to your house. Knightley, I can't marry until he's dead. And Nightly's like, listen, I will leave my big, fancy mansion. I'll sort of mothball my mansion. I'll have the servants, like, do all the dusting and whatever, and I'll just come live in your girl house with your dad. And so Mr. Knightley is gonna move into a house that's very much just been run by a single girl. It's probably, like, pink throw cushions and only one bathroom with makeup everywhere. And, like, you know, and Mr. Knightley's like, I'll do that. I don't care. I love you and I love your father. And then they get married and they live happily ever after.

[Thomas Magbee]

It's so good.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is so good. Now, the thing that I wanted to point out, and this is the.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

The funny thing, is them trying to convince Mr. Woodhouse that marriage is a good idea.

[Thomas Magbee]

Oh.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh. Do you want. So the reason why he gets convinced is there is a rash of turkey thefts. And so somebody through the village had, like, broken into. Into coops and stolen turkeys. And Mr. Woodhouse is like, where next? And then he's like, it would be good to have a man around all the time. And so, Mr. Man, we've got to stay safe. We've got to stay safe. You can marry Knightley. In fact, you should marry him soon and bring him into the house to save us from the turkey thief, which is glorious. Anyway, so the line between. So the tragedy that Emma thinks she's going to have is Jane and Frank are gone and married. Knightley and Harriet are married, and she can't really hang out with Knightley the way that she could. And she was going to be alone with her father, and when her father died, she would be a lonely spinster. And Emma, who prided herself on being able to, like, figure out the narrative before everybody else and manipulate the game, was actually going to lose the game and was going to be sad the rest of her life. That was a tragedy that was going to befall Emma. But Emma learns her. Emma's own self is revealed to herself before it's too late. And she's revealed by a bunch of crises. The crisis on Box Hill where nicely dresses are down. The crisis of obviously Mr. Elton and Harriet at the beginning of the book. The crisis of Jane and Frank and Emma feeling like she was on the butt end of the joke and then being really mean to being really mean or realizing that she has been really mean to Jane when she didn't really mean to be, she just was. Of course, Jane didn't like her being on the wrong narrative about who Harriet was in love with and putting her foot in her mouth about that kind of thing, thing. All these crises. She sort of learns who she is and she's able to, and she's been able to course correct before it happens. But one of the sort of the glorious things about, about the book is that Emma doesn't go and make everything right. Right? She doesn't go. She doesn't be like Knightley, it's you I love. And she's like, Harry, let's go get you married to Mr. Martin. And like Emma doesn't go and like clean up her own mess. But when she realizes the thing about herself, it's actually the fact that Knightley has already loved her and the fact that even though Emma has had these sins, we'll call them, has had these character flaws that could have swamped her little boat, she's also had these graces and she's also had these like positive characteristics and everyone kind of loves her for it. Like Ms. Bates is welcome and ready to forgive Emma for that being mean because Emma's also very fun to be around and entertains her and comes to her house and brings her things and has tea and it's really fun when Ms. Woodhouse comes around. And Knightley is of course quick to forgive her because she is gregarious and lively and she really is well meaning and she does love people. Even though she was on the path to being a Mrs. Elton, she sort of learns before then and turns away from that path. And so Mr. Knightley is just so thankful that like Emma has matured in this way and that his love is not being misplaced. So Emma in fact really, it does kind of have this like charmed ending. She doesn't go and solve all of her problems, but a lot of them.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Are solved just by luck. A lot of.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, no, not just by luck, but I want to posit that they're solved by like the love people have for her positive characteristics are going to be the things that allow people to, like, quickly want to forgive her. And.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

Well, I meant like Harriet falling for a different guy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, yeah. Harriet falling. Mr. Martin coming back, maybe. And there is maybe some sort of subtext that Mr. Knightley has always kept the door open for Mr. Martin and Harriet and Mr. And Night because Harry goes to spend time with the Knightley family, like. Like Mr. Knightley's brother. And then Mr. Martin, like, goes to London, is like, oh, Harriet, fancy meeting you here. What's the farmer doing in London? So there may. That may have been like a nightly thing, but Emma has to have herself revealed to herself. And that's the line between tragedy and comedy, right? You learn who you actually are and in a tragedy you have no time to change it, and in a comedy you have time to change it. Or in the case of Emma, the love that other people have for you changes it. Right. Like, you're not going to be. You're not going to be swept off in your negative characteristics. You're going to be sort of brought into the glory of your positive characteristics. And Emma needs to put the. The only way that's going to happen is if Emma really learns the lessons about herself. The. She's not. She. She is in people's lives. She's a little nosy. She. The line between, like, the narrative she tells and reality, like, that gap is huge. Like, Emma does not. She can't put the pieces together. Mr. Knightley, can he. He's actually. Mr. Knightley clues in on Jane and Frank early in the book. He's like, I think there's something going on there. And I was like, no, nightly. That's dumb. And Knightley's right. Yeah. And so there's this, like. Yeah, that. That you need. Everybody needs to learn who they are sooner or later, and you want to learn who you are sooner rather than later so that you can, you know, fix the problems before they're unfixable, before Emma's by herself and all her loves have gone to love somebody else. And the only thing that can reveal that is people who love you, who are willing to tell you when you're wrong. And also you kind of going through crises. You. Going through. Yeah, Box Hill and the various. And you know, Box Hill and the Jane Frank thing is not like a crisis, but it is. It is a personal crisis where you all of a sudden realize that there's some ugliness to you and it's a social one, too.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

If she wouldn't have made that Right. People would have been grumpy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanenberg]

She could have lost some friends.

[Graham Donaldson]

And so, you know, although Emma, she does not end up becoming this like, you know, she's still gregarious and she's still in people's business and she's still the life of the party and she's still a little bit vain and rich. But there is now a softening of her edges in that she's learned this and the path that she could have been going down to becoming like a Mrs. Weston or maybe even though we never meet her as a character, a Mrs. An old, an old battle axe, Ms. Churchill or Mrs. Churchill who's always got her claws and Frank and like, you know, uses her status to really commit control people. You know, these are the, the, these are the trajectories and the terminuses that Emma could have ended up in. But when she realizes who she actually is and feels bad about it and has a conscience, that's a big theme, a big topic in the book is developing conscience. Then she's been able, she's able to course correct and is able to, to move into, into, well, actually then having a lifetime of happiness. And like how I said at the beginning of this podcast, I really think Jane Austen books are, you can very profitably read them as what does a healthy psychological makeup look like? And these are not Hallmark characters. These are not like two dimensional sort of little fantasy characters. These are real. These, her characters are like, are very realistic and human and a lot of people sort of poo poo Jane Austen because they always have these happy endings that end in marriage. But I really do think that if you read them saying to yourself, this is, you know, the lessons that these characters are going to learn are the lessons that everybody needs to learn about themselves if they want to have like a settled spirit and a lifetime of community and real happiness, then I think that's why I think the Austen novels end up being these really important books for people to read. Almost like, like how a doctor needs to know what a healthy body is. Like, I think a human person needs to have a vision of what like a healthy soul looks like. And I think the characters, the, the happy characters in Jane Austen really, really show that. So that's where, I mean, there's probably more to say. We're already at the hour mark, so we should probably end there. We can save some stuff for the in between. I have been kicking around and maybe we'll ask this out and throw this out to our listeners, Patreon and non Patreon. I really have been kicking around wanting to do a longer form, like multi houred, not maybe in this podcast, but maybe like writing it out and, and having sort of a multi form, multi houred discussion about all of the Jane Austen novels with that kind of lens of comparing, of talking about sort of what it means to be healthy and happy. So if that's something that people are interested in, I would like to know if that's what people would like. And maybe I would sort of throw myself into that. But anyway, but that's Emma in a nutshell.

[Thomas Magbee]

That was great. This has been Classical stuff. You should know. You can find us online at classicalstuff.net yout can email us at theguys classicalstuff.net you can find us on Patreon, which Graham just referenced, where we record in between episodes. In between each of our episodes. We also do monthly AMAs where our patrons can ask us questions which we will then am answer. And you can find us on Twitter or X at Classical stuff. C L S S C A L stuff. And I think that's everything.

[Graham Donaldson]

Awesome.

[Thomas Magbee]

Thanks everyone.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thanks guys.

[Thomas Magbee]

Bye.

[Graham Donaldson]

By.