302: Of Mice and Men

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 302: Of Mice and Men

Release Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Overview

This episode dives deep into John Steinbeck’s novella Of Mice and Men. The hosts—A.J., Graeme, and Thomas—discuss its plot, themes, major characters, symbolism, and enduring cultural resonance. Rich in literary analysis and trademark banter, the episode offers educators and general listeners thoughtful, sometimes humorous, insights into a classic that explores loneliness, hope, loss, and the American experience during the Great Depression.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening & Context (00:08–02:16)

• The hosts, amidst humorous opening banter, introduce the classical focus of the podcast and the personal context of the end of the school year and the presence of mice—leading directly into the subject matter.
• Setup: “If only there was some kind of handbook or guidebook that we could turn to that we as men could deal with mice…” (01:14, Graeme)

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2. Plot Walkthrough (02:16–27:26)

The Journey Begins

• George Milton and Lenny Small: Two itinerant ranch hands—George, sharp but small; Lenny, mentally simple with the strength of an ox and a love of petting soft things.
• Their Dream: “Their goal is to buy a little piece of land... where they’ll have rabbits.” (Graeme, 03:36)
• Lenny’s simplicity and tragic flaw are made clear with the anecdote about him killing a mouse by accident and the backstory of being run out of their last job due to misunderstanding and fear.

Arrival at the Ranch & Cast Introduction

• The narrative centers on a claustrophobic, male-dominated ranch, full of “dark, enclosed, claustrophobic spaces” (06:18).
• Major characters:
  • Candy: Old “swamper” with one hand and a beloved, decrepit dog.
  • Slim: Respected mule driver, “the moral center of the universe at this here ranch.” (07:28)
  • Curly: The boss’s small, aggressive son, always spoiling for a fight.
  • Curly’s Wife: Flirtatious and lonely, unnamed, a source of tension.
  • Carlson: Selfish, practical ranch hand with a gun.
  • Crooks: Black stable hand, isolated from the others.

Key Incidents

• Candy’s Dog’s Death (13:44–15:35):

  • Carlson insists on killing Candy’s old dog despite Candy’s protests. The moment is laden with “awkward silences” and symbolic weight.
  • Notable quote: “I’ll put one right there... Wouldn’t feel a thing. Just go limp.” (Graeme, 13:11)

• The Plan for the Future (15:34–19:58):

  • Candy offers his savings to join George and Lenny’s dream, making the plan feel achievable.
  • Hope and the fleeting possibility of a better life surge.

• Curly and Lenny’s Fight (17:55–19:08):

  • Curly attacks Lenny, who finally crushes Curly’s hand with his bare strength—an act that brings the threat of exposure and expulsion.

• Lenny’s Visit with Crooks (19:59–24:21):

  • An episode of racial and existential alienation unfolds. Crooks voices the deep loneliness endemic to all the ranch hands:
    • “Maybe you can see now you got George. You know he’s going to come back. Suppose you didn’t have nobody. ...A guy gets too lonely and he gets sick.” (Crooks, as quoted by Graeme, 32:27)
  • Curly’s wife asserts her power and reveals Crooks’s vulnerability with a chilling threat: “I could have you strung up in a tree in a moment.” (paraphrased, 22:15)

• Climax and Tragedy (24:21–27:26):

  • Lenny accidentally kills his puppy, then Curly's wife when she lets him pet her hair and panics.
  • In distress, Lenny flees to the preset meeting spot. George, knowing what will happen if Curly catches Lenny, mercifully kills Lenny himself—mirroring Candy’s regret over not shooting his own dog.

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3. Literary Context and Title Origin (27:32–32:11)

The Robert Burns Poem

• The title derives from Burns’ “To a Mouse.”
• The hosts read both the Scots and English versions, focusing especially on:
  • “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men / Gang aft agley” = “Go oft awry.”
• Analysis: The poem’s “sympathy for the mouse” and the futility of human plans reflect the novella’s core themes.
• A recurring motif: the fragility of dreams and how hope can amplify disappointment when fate intervenes.

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4. Exploring Themes and Symbolism (32:12–46:59)

Claustrophobia and Isolation

• Most action is indoors, augmenting the sense of entrapment and stifled hope.
• Characters are all “crushingly lonely,” set apart by circumstance, personality, or prejudice.

The American Experience

• The ranch hands are rootless, mirroring an “American story” of searching for place, home, and belonging (43:52).
• A.J.: “They don’t have a land. They don’t have a place. They don’t have a people.” (43:52)
• Comparison with European and medieval literary traditions—contrasting themes of rootlessness and belonging.

Loneliness and the Need for Companionship

• Crooks: “A guy needs somebody to be near him... A guy gets too lonely and he gets sick.” (32:27)

Hope, Desire, and their Consequences

• Every character dreams of more—a home, Hollywood, revenge—but these desires serve more to underscore disappointment.
• The fatal flaw is holding hope so tightly it is destroyed in the process.
  • “You love the thing too much, you kill it. ...You accidentally do present damage in wanting the future thing.” (A.J., 46:37)
• Slim provides a potential counterpoint: finding satisfaction in one's craft, but even this is uncertain.

Steinbeck’s Perspective: Cynicism or Warning?

• Discussion of Steinbeck’s worldview—his skepticism of progress, perhaps advocating a “return to simpler times.”
• Debate over whether Steinbeck indicts hope itself, or the tendency to escape the present for a better imagined future.

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Loneliness:
  • “Maybe everybody in the whole dang world is scared of each other. It’s a lot nicer to go around with a guy, you know.” (Slim, as quoted by Graeme, 32:12)
• On the Futility of Plans:
  • “The best laid schemes of mice and men go off to rye, and leave us nothing but grief and pain for promised joy.” (From Burns, paraphrased by Thomas, 31:01)
• On Companionship:
  • “At least you have somebody. ...At least you’ve got Lenny. Lenny cares about you. ...It’s either that or the crushing loneliness of everybody else.” (Graeme, 41:12)

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6. Literary and Teaching Reflections (46:59–52:46)

• Educational Value:

  • The hosts challenge the idea that a book must be “redemptive” to be valuable, asserting that warnings and honest depictions of human experience are worthwhile.
    • “I always sort of recoil when someone says, this book has nothing redemptive in it, therefore we shouldn’t put it on the curriculum.” (Graeme, 47:53)

• Other Steinbeck Works:

  • Brief mentions of East of Eden and The Pearl as variations on themes of hope, progress, and disappointment.

• Comparative Literature:

  • Mentions similar themes in contemporary TV shows (The Wire, Yellowstone) and the broader literary tradition (e.g., Fight Club, Catcher in the Rye).

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Episode Structure & Notable Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------|----------------| | Opening & Context | 00:08–02:16 | | Plot Summary / Walkthrough | 02:16–27:26 | | Title and Poetic Origins | 27:32–32:11 | | Thematic Analysis and Symbolism | 32:12–46:59 | | Literary Reflection and Teaching | 46:59–52:46 |

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Conclusion

The episode closes with the recognition that Of Mice and Men is a “bummer,” but a necessary and honest portrayal of loneliness, longing, and the precariousness of human aspiration. The hosts affirm its place in the curriculum and its value in fostering reflection—if balanced with hope elsewhere in the reading diet.

“You’ll be the same person when you get there anyway.” (Graeme, 52:57)

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Further Resources

• Read: Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck
• Poem Reference: “To a Mouse” by Robert Burns
• Consider: East of Eden and The Pearl for complementary Steinbeck themes

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For detailed queries or discussion, the hosts invite questions at their regular contact addresses—and encourage listeners to seek comfort, perhaps, in petting their dogs after such a heavy literary episode.

Transcript

[A]

Hi and welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know. A podcast about classical. World class, old books, education, art, music. I don't know what music. What am I talking about?

[B]

We could do music.

[A]

We could do music. But we are three guys who read a lot and we, AJ and I are teachers at a classical school, and Thomas has worked at this classical school in the past, and we do a podcast about old things.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

My name is Graham Donaldson, and I am joined. Oh, crap. With by.

[C]

Joined by.

[A]

Joined by.

[C]

We decided that joined with is not.

[A]

I'm joined by AJ Prefer.

[C]

No reflection.

[B]

Joined is what it would mean if we're joined with.

[A]

I am conjoined, but with AJ Hannenberg, that's me. And Thomas Magby.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

And it's the end of the school year here in Texas, and the kids have been messy. They've been leaving little. They've been leaving things around. There's like crumbs all over the floor.

[C]

If you want ants, that's how you get ants.

[A]

They're. Well, actually, not just ants. We've been getting mice.

[C]

Ooh, buddy.

[A]

And we as men need to deal with this problem of mice. If only there was some kind of handbook or guidebook that we could turn to that we as men could deal with mice. Something that was like. Of that subject that would be a helpful resource for us to have.

[C]

Are you talking about the famous John Steinbeck manual about how to deal with mouse problems? Vermin issues?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Of Mice and Men. So that's what we're talking about today is John Steinbeck's tiny little novella called Of Mice and Men. You again. You can just like all the stuff we talk about. You can go read it for yourself. It's not a super long thing. So I'm gonna describe it today. I might add a little bit of extra context for you, and then we'll discuss some of the stuff that sort of comes out of the novel.

[A]

So go find your favorite puppy and give it a. Give it a hug.

[C]

So have you guys read this?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay, great. I might need your. Need your help on this one, but

[A]

I like it's in a long time in high school.

[C]

That's fine. I can remind you of some things and we can discuss some of those. Those bigger issues.

[A]

I remember there was a dude named Lenny.

[C]

I'm also running on very little sleep, so brazen confidence is what's going to carry us through this episode. So our novel opens with two characters, George Milton and Lenny Small. We learn their names later. We just know that they're Lenny and George. Lenny is not small. He is a huge person. Like impose. Physically imposing, giant dude. George Milton is a smaller, more narrow, more skinny person. And it opens with them sort of trucking through the brush. Turns out they were heading towards this ranch and the bus driver dropped them off like five miles distant because he just didn't want to drive up to the gate. So he's like, get out. So they've been hiking and they're like, man flipping bus driver. And so they don't want to roll in that evening because they know they'll have to work at the ranch if they get in early. And so there's like, well, I'll just sleep under the stars and hang out here. So as they sort of prepare to sleep, you find out that Lenny has been hiding a mouse in his pocket. And George is like, what do you got? He's like, nothing. He's like, give me the mouse. And so Lenny has to hand it over and George hucks it off into the weeds and he's like, man, I told you like that that's a dead mouse. That's gross. You can't do that. We'll find you a new mouse or something later, rabbit. But that's, that's gross man. You can't do that. So they decide to lay down there. Lennie asks George to tell him again of their goal. And their goal is to buy a little piece of land where they'll.

[A]

Lenny is a simple minded person.

[C]

Yeah, he is. Best I can figure. Down syndrome is my guess. He has the mind of a child. George likes to tell people he got kicked in the head by a horse. He didn't.

[B]

But that's not true.

[C]

That's not true. He's just simple. So Lenny is a simple minded person and he likes to pet fuzzy things. And that's why he had the mouse. Is he just like to run his thumb over it as they were walking. But he, it like bit at him and so he squeezed its head a little and he's like. And then it died. And what was I supposed to do? I still want to pet it. So he was just petting the mo. So he asked George to tell them of their goal and they, they are working towards saving up enough money to get this piece of land. You find out later. George knows of this piece of land where there's a couple of old people and they're, you know, she needs an operation. They kind of need to sell their place. And he's going to save up enough money, it's going to cost him 600 bucks, which in the time of the Great Depression is an impressive amount of cash. They don't have it, but they're going to work towards it. And they're sort of traveling ranch hands. And they got kicked out of their last place because Lenny, you know, he likes to touch things that he finds visually appealing. And so he saw this girl's dress, so he grabbed onto the dress, and she freaked out and yelled at him. And so he. Like, when he gets scared, he grips harder and he. So he just sort of latched on, and the girl freaked out, and everybody freaked out. And the girl starts screaming. They finally got Lenny to let go, but then the girl accused him of rape. And they had to sort of hide in a ditch all evening while they were looked for. And so anyway, that's how they got ran out of their last place, was avoiding Lenny getting in trouble. So George is telling him about this goal. They're gonna have a piece of land. They're gonna have rabbits. And that's Lenny's like. That's his dream, is to have fuzzy things that he can pet that he won't accidentally kill. And so he's like, I'm gonna feed the rabbits. I'm gonna feed them cabbage. It's gonna be awesome. Or alfalfa is what he's gonna do. So they're gonna raise some alfalfa, raise some vegetables. They'll have trees. They'll have cows and cream and chickens and a nice little fireplace inside, an extra room where their friends can come and stay and they won't get run off. And it's just this really idyllic thing. Eventually, George says, hey, man, you gotta go get some wood for a fire. So Lenny sort of trumps off. And then he comes, comes back with a single stick, wet shoes, and sits down, and he's like. George says, all right, give me the mouse, man. And he's like, what? I don't. I got nothing. I don't have anything. He's like, I heard you walk across the pond to get the mouse. Give me the mouse. So he grabs the dead mouse that Lenny had, like, watched where it landed, hucks it as far as he can, and then they go to sleep. The next day, they go into the ranch, and the ranch is a new spot. They've never been there before. They got sort of hired there through an intermediary. They're just looking for work, and this guy sort of sets up these little organizations, and they were supposed to come in the night before, but they blended on the bus driver legitimately, and they sort of roll into this bunkhouse. One thing to note is that most of the action of this novel, except in the clearing where they appear and where they end up at the end of the novel, happens indoors. You get very little about what's happening outside. It all happens in sort of dark, enclosed, claustrophobic spaces. And one of those is the bunkhouse that consistently smells like old dog and sweaty dude. It smells like old dog because one particular guy, the guy they meet first, whose name is Candy, he's an old ranch hand handyman. They call him a swamper. I'm not entirely sure what that means. I get the impression that means he cleans out the bunkhouse. He has one hand because he had an accident, I think, where he got it caught in a machine. So anyway, he lost his hand and he's sort of old. His dog is really old and smelly, but he loves it. Used to run sheep with him, and he kind of cares for this thing. You sort of slowly meet all the other characters. You meet Slim, who is a jerk line skinner, which means a mule driver. He is, because he's an incredible mule driver. They say he can take the fly off of a mule with a whip from, like, several yards off without hurting the mule. His word is law, like, he is everyone. He's like this sage genius, and what he says goes. And he sort of runs his little team. He can run a whole line of mules with no problem from a single horse. He kind of becomes the moral center of the universe at this here ranch. You also have Curly, who pops in really quick. He's got one hand and a glove. Turns out he just got married. He wants to fight everybody because he's small and he's like. He's got a little boxing in his background, and so he's like, you know, he kind of picks fights with anyone who's bigger than him. Which sucks, because if you fight a guy like that, if you win, they say you were, you know, punching on a smaller guy. And if you lose, well, then you got beat by a smaller guy. And so there's. There's no winning fighting Curly, and Curly kind of knows it. So he picks fights with everybody. And the worst part, like, when you first see him, he's looking for his wife. He pops in. He's. He's sort of checking things out. And he sort of squares up with Lenny and sizes him up because Lenny's this big guy, but Lenny doesn't want to fight.

[B]

He's.

[C]

He barely knows what's going on. So Lenny sort of stomps out of the room and you find out that his new wife, she has. She gives everyone the eye, which means she sort of flirts with everybody. And they're like, this is a. This girl's a problem. She is a tramp. And she is going to cause Lenny some unlike or sorry, Curly, some issues. Curly is like, he's got a. He's got a trollop on his hands. And so he is going to have a difficult time keeping her, like, in his house with all of these ranch hands around. And she's like giving the eye to anyone that will come close to her and give her attention. Later, she shows up in the doorway and she's all dressed in red and she's got peacock feathers on her shoes and she's got her hair curled in these beautiful silky. He says, arranged like sausages. So there's like, they're like these little sausage links of hair that look so amazing. And she really is giving everybody the eye. She is flirting as much as you can possibly flirt. She's like, she's looking for a husband. And then she sort of sizes up Lennie and looks at George and she's like, hey, boys. And then they're basically like, go away. We don't, we don't want you here. Like, you are just going to be trouble for everybody. And she says, well, there's. I was just looking for my husband and there's nothing wrong with looking. And then she, like walks out. They're like, oh, my gosh, she's the worst. So you've got Curly, who keeps one hand in a glove. They say it's full of Vaseline because he says he wants to keep it soft for his wife, which is weird. Everyone thinks that's gross and that Curly shouldn't spread that sort of thing around. So you also have Carlson, who's sort of a selfish ranch hand. He's got a gun. That'll come up important later. You have the boss, who only appears a couple of times. He wears big high heeled boots. Curly is his son. So Curly, the little box and short guy. So even though he's causing trouble for everybody, he probably won't get fired. You have another random ranch hand wit. And that's kind of the cast of characters, except for a fella named Crooks, who is an old black stable hand who lives in the barn. He's not allowed to stay in the bunkhouse with everybody else. Pretty quickly, George and Lennie are like, this is a bad situation. This is not gonna go well. There's a girl and she's given the eye to everybody. There's Curly, who wants to fight everybody. This is not a healthy place to work. But George is like, look, man, we got run out of the last place. We got an okay going thing. Like we'll just raise up enough money to finish up that cash and get us that piece of land and then we'll like just disappear. Like we'll get out of here. They make 50 bucks a month apiece. So if they can stay there for six months, they can get together the 600 bucks and get out of there. And that's sort of the plan is they do that. Well, so they come in and they meet all these guys and they're like, we just got to keep our heads down and do the deal and get out of there. Like I said, the novel's not very long. So there's a. There's a number of encounters that sort of happen pretty quickly, one after the other. So after they meet everybody, the first sort of big scene is that Carlson decides that the dog smells bad. That Candy's dog smells bad. And I noticed that most of the names are C names. You have Carlson. Carlson's just like the random selfish ranch hand that has a gun, right? He sort of thinks of himself. He's just like your good old working boy that does. That's like he's got no feelings. He's just sort of doing his thing. But like lots of C names. So Candy, one handed old swamper crooks, black stable hand, Curly, boxing guy, that's short. Carlson, who's the guy with the Luger, right? So it's a whole slew of C names. So Carlson decides, he's like, you've gotta get rid of that stupid dog, it smells so bad. And Candy's like, I've had him forever. He's my dog. And I, I'm. I don't. I guess I got used to the smell, you know. And Carson's like, I, I'll take it out. You, you gotta, you gotta put that dog out of his misery. He's barely putting it together. Thing can't stand, he can't eat. He stinks to high heaven. He makes all of this miserable. We. He's in here and you can't get the smell of that dog out of here for three days. Like you're making, you're making all of this terrible. And Candy's like, yeah, I guess I'll. I should put him down. But I just had him for so long. It's like, look, man, I'll do it. I'll take care of your dog for you. You don't have to say nothing. He won't feel any. And he just keeps on, like, poking the dog right in the back of the head. He's like, I'll put one right there. Wouldn't feel a thing. Just go limp. Put one right, right there. And he points with his shoe. And, like, it's just. It's pretty rough. And I don't think Candy wants to say, buzz off, man. It's my dog. I'm attached to this thing. Because he probably does smell, and he's kind of a problem for all the other guys. And he's like, fine, fine. And there was another dog that just had puppies in the barn. So, like, we'll get you a new puppy. You have a new dog. Just get rid of it. And he's like, okay, wait till tomorrow. And eventually, Candy gives in, and Carlson grabs the gun and sort of hauls the dog off in the distance. And everyone. It's a really awkward series of moments where George is kind of trying to play euchre with wit, and he's like, let's play some cards. And everyone's kind of nervously making jokes, and the card game doesn't really start, and there's like long stretches of silence because they're just sort of waiting for the gun pop. At least before he left, Slim, the sage mule driver said, do what you're supposed to do. Take a shovel. Like, you have to bury the thing. Like, actually do your job. And the guy's like, okay, I will. Carlson takes the gun and the dog, and he goes out. A little while later, you hear the pop. And then he comes back, and poor Candy sort of just turns against the wall and goes to sleep, or at least tries to. Carlsen comes back and starts cleaning his gun sort of in front of everybody, which is heartless. After the pop, everybody kind of goes back to normal. But it's a real sort of weird moment, and it's a bummer. So next thing that happens, I think this is before the fight. So he gets to chatting with George. Everybody's kind of out of there. So Candy talks with George, and he's like, you guys go together. That's kind of weird. You're traveling with this guy the most of the time. George just tried to tries to keep Lenny from talking and getting in trouble. He's like, man, shush. Don't get us in trouble. We don't want to kicked out of here. Don't get do anything wrong. Don't make any Mistakes, just less work like. And Lenny can work. He can buck more bales of hay than anybody else.

[A]

Right.

[C]

He's as good as a two man team. He's just massive. So he's like. So you travel around with that Lenny character and he's like, yeah, he's my cousin. He keeps on telling people that he's. He's sort of weirdly related to him. They're not. He just sort of knew the guy. And then Lenny's aunt died and it was just. They sort of ended up together and they're sort of used to each other and they kind of look out for each other. Candy thinks this is great. He's like traveling around with somebody that's. That you got really got that going on. That's awfully nice. It's good to have somebody looking out for you. And this. I think it's in this particular part that there's an important quote that I have pulled up. Let me see if I can find it.

[A]

Well, Candy's the little guy.

[C]

Candy's the one handed old guy that just lost his dog, which is just a huge.

[A]

Curly's the little guy.

[C]

Curly's the little guy that wants to fight everybody. Okay, so. Oh, this is when he's talking with Slim. So Slim. So I'll come back to that quote in a little bit, I guess. Anyway, Curly, they get to talking and Candy's like, I heard you sort of talking about this plan of yours. He's like, yeah, it's a thing. You know, we got a little piece of land. And George doesn't really want to give it away because it is kind of a connection with this cool piece of land. And apparently this happens all the time. He's like, I see a thousand guys like you. They always have a plan for some sort of land. It never really pans out. But he's like, listen, Kenny's like, look, man, I'm old. Eventually I'm going the way that my dog just did. I'm not going to last very much longer with one hand in this place. They're either going to kill me or they're going to put me out. And I can't find another job. So I'm kind of screwed. I got 350 bucks saved up. Another 50. Like this month I'm going to grab myself another 50. That's 400. With the $10 you got and the next hundred you guys got coming, that's 500 bucks. Like we are in a month, we're at 500. And George is like, I bet I could get the land for that. Like, we could actually do this thing. And they didn't. Like, he never really believed it was gonna happen. Like, it's just something he sort of told Lenny. He's like, do you really want to do this? And the guy's like, look, man, I could work my way. I got one arm. But I'm a good worker, and Lenny's an amazing worker, and we could really make this happen. So I'll sort of sit there in, like, the nice little glow of thinking we could actually do this thing. Well, next thing that happens is Curly gets offended. He's looking for his wife, and one of the other ranch hands insults him. And he's like, yeah, you're yelling. You're never like. You're always talking a big game, but you're never gonna fight anybody. And Lenny just sort of smiles and laughs because Lenny is simple. And Curley's like, what are you laughing at, big boy? And take some pretty serious offense. And he's like, yeah, keep laughing. I'll show you what's going to happen. He just starts swinging at Lenny, right? So he pops him in the side of the face, gets him with a hook, and then pops him right in the nose. And Lenny starts bleeding. And Lenny's frightened, but he doesn't really know how to fight. He doesn't really have any training. And so he doesn't even put his hands up. Like, he's just getting pummeled. So George says, lenny, like, you got to get him. Because George can't. They can't pull Curly off, George. Lenny's not protecting himself. George says, okay, Lenny, get him. And so Lennie doesn't really know how to fight, but he catches one of Curly's fists in his hand and just crushes it. Like, all of a sudden, Curly is squirming. His whole body's on the ground because he can't get his fist out of Lenny's hand. And Lenny's just holding it and absolutely, like, mashing every bone in poor Curley's hand. And eventually, George has to get over there, and he's like, lenny, let go. Lenny, let go. Lenny, you gotta. And then finally, Lenny lets go, and they have to take Curly to the hospital because he's. His hand has been absolutely obliterated. And.

[B]

Is it the one in the glove?

[C]

I don't think it really says which one? Anyway, either way, his hand is just totally squashed. And so they're like, if this gets out, we're in really big trouble, and we're gonna kick get kicked off of this ranch because he's the boss's kid. And so Slim says, hey, like, you don't want to let it get out that you just got absolutely manhandled, do ya? And picked a fight. So you better tell people that you had an accident with a machine. And he's like, yes, sir, I had an accident with the machine. So they send him off.

[A]

Curly's gonna do that?

[C]

Yeah, Curly. Curly's gonna keep it under wraps. Cause he's embarrassed and he doesn't want us to get around. Like, that's darn, darn right what's gonna happen. And so he kind of gets trucked off, but the mood is tense. And I told you that there was a little litter of puppies, right? And where Candy is going to get his new dog. Well, Lenny is excited to have nice things to pet. And so they decide to give him one of the dogs. It's brown and white. And he spends all of his time in the barn. And he's petting those things. And they're like, lenny, you got to quit taking them out of the barn. They're like newborns, and you got to leave them with his mom. And he's like, I was doing nothing, just petting it. He brings it back to the bunkhouse at one point, and they're like, lenny, put it in the barn. So he's like, sleeping out there next to the dogs. And he's just really excited to have nice things to pet. So everyone's kind of gone because of this fight. And he wanders in because he wants to, like, look at the pups. And he runs into Crooks, the black stable hand. You guys tracking so far?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. So he runs into Crooks. And Crooks is like, what are you doing, man? Get out. Get out of my room. Crooks lives alone because he is black. And obviously he can't stay with the ranch, the ranch boys. But he's got a nice little thing going. He's got his own room, even though it's kind of smelly. He's got a lot of his own little possessions. He's, you know, saving up some cash or whatever. And he's like, he's doing okay, but he does have a crooked spine. And so he's sort of rubbing it with liniment oil. When Lenny walks in and he. He's automatically defensive and says, like, get out of my room. You're not supposed to come in here. And Lenny's like, I was just coming to pet the dogs. And I saw the light, and he's like, I said, get out of here. And he's like, I was just, just saw the light. And eventually Lenny, being simple and honest and meek, he sort of ends up sitting down next to Crooks. And Crooks sort of delights in saying like, what if George doesn't come back? It's sort of the same thing that you talked about in your last episode where Raskolnikov taunts Sonya with, what if things go wrong? You know, what if he's not coming back? And he's like, lenny, what if George doesn't come back? What if he's lying? What if he sort of disappears or something bad happens and poor Lenny just starts falling to pieces because he can't fathom this, right? He travels with George. George is his protector. George said he would come back. George always comes back. And Lenny just sort of falls to pieces. Eventually George starts getting kind of angry. And having a big giant guy like that angry on your bed is a bad situation. Like, I'm just kidding, I was just supposing, I was just saying that. But, oh, Crooks gets angry. No, Lenny gets angry. Like, George not coming back. He's like, don't you say that. And so Crooks is scared all of a sudden because Lenny is a massive person and so says, I was just kidding, I was just kidding. But imagine what that would be like. That's how it always is for me, right? I have no one to look out for me. I am alone. That kind of loneliness is the problem. Says Crooks. Says Crooks. Eventually, Candy walks in and Crooks is like, well, if everyone's coming in, you might as well come in. But he's clearly very pleased to have people in his room and people to talk to and they sort of chat and they're actually having a fairly nice time while everyone is off dealing with Curly's busted up hand and Curley's wife pops in and they're like, get out, get out of here. And she's making eyes at everybody and they're like, you cannot be here. And she takes offense and basically says to Crooks, you know what I could do to you? I could have you strung up in a tree in a moment. And so Crooks sort of retreats inside of himself. And a minute ago he had. Lenny had sort of let slip about their big plan to go to the land. And Crooks was like, look, if you guys want an extra worker, like, you wouldn't have to pay me. I would just come and work and stay. And it seems awfully nice. And he was sort of getting in on the plan and then everybody was sort of with it. Even though Crooks was like, I see a thousand guys like you. Everybody has a plan. But everybody always loses their money at the cat house or playing pool or gambling or the 50 bucks never stays 50 bucks. It turns into 5 bucks. They will never make it out of here. It's not going to happen. But he sort of start, they're like, oh, you guys actually have the money. This could actually be a thing. So Crooks kind of wants in on it and she basically says, I could have you up in a tree in a moment. I could do that. Don't you mess with me. Because she sort of takes a defense and Crooks retreats inside himself. He sort of becomes totally catatonic defense mechanism and just says, yes ma', am. Like I'm. That's fine. So she leaves and there's a couple of things that I'll come back to here as. As people come in and out of Crooks's room that sort of become important. After chatting with Crooks, the boys come back and they're having a horseshoe tournament. And Lenny is in looking at the puppies, having a good time. And Curley's wife walks in and Lenny has accidentally killed his puppy because he pet it a little bit too hard. And he's petting this poor dead puppy and he's sort of thinking like, should I bury it or should I get rid of it if I'm in trouble? George said to run to the clearing, but I don't think I'm in that big of trouble. It's just a puppy and they have lots of puppies and said they could get more. And he's sort of having a small Lenny sized crisis about this. And she comes in and sort of finds out that he's hiding this puppy and that he likes to touch soft things. And she's like, well, why don't you. Well, take a look at my hair. It's awfully soft. You can just pet it like that. And so he starts to pet her hair and she's like, well, don't you mess it up. And so she's like get off of me. And he sort of clamps down as he does on her hair and she starts to scream and, and get worked up. And so he covers her mouth and he's like, don't you dare scream. Don't you do that.

[A]

Cause he's worried that he's gonna get in trouble with the puppy.

[C]

He's worried that he's gonna get in trouble with that. He's going to get in trouble with her and he just doesn't want to be in trouble. And at one point she sort of, you know, starts to make a nuisance and he jerks her really fast and accidentally breaks her neck. And he puts her down and he's like, oh, no, this is real trouble. Like, I've. I have done something bad again. And so he flees. He flees back to that clearing where they were a minute ago. Crooks comes in and finds her and figures out what's going on and goes and gets George. And they're like, okay, this is really bad. Clearly it was Lenny. Bad stuff. It can't look like I'm involved in this. So George goes back to the bunk house and then Lenny sort of brings everybody else in. Curly figures out what's going on. He's like, I am going to kill that big guy. I'm gonna shoot him right in the gut. Like, I'll do it myself. And I'm gonna make sure. George and Candy had thought maybe, like, maybe they'll treat him nice if they put him in jail. But they're like, that's not going to happen. Like, Curly is going to make sure he hangs for this or he's going to kill George himself. There is no Kill Lenny himself. Yeah, kill Lenny. Kill Lenny himself. There's no way out of this for Lenny. So unbeknownst to anyone. Well, Carlsen goes for his gun, but there's no gun left. And he's like, ah, Lenny must have taken it. He must have the gun. Well, George is the one who took it. He points them the opposite way. He's like, we came from the north. Lenny must have gone south. Why don't you guys all go look south? But they are like, george, you better come with us to prove you didn't have any hand in this. So George has to take along. Eventually it sort of like pans back to Lenny, who is in the clearing and having, you know, visions of terror of his own. He has a vision that there. That his aunt is yelling at him that he's no good, that he's not smart, that he's terrible, and that George is going to leave him. And then a giant bunny sort of says, you are not worthy to have bunnies. All those sort of disappear when George comes up and Lennie's like, oh, thank goodness you were here.

[A]

George always comes back.

[C]

George always comes back. He will definitely come for me. He'll make this okay. Lenny says, look, I know it'd be easy. Like Aren't you gonna lay into me? You always lay into me when I've done something wrong. And I could go live in a cave and I wouldn't be any trouble for you. And George is like, yeah, you could. That's. Yep. You're the worst, I guess. And Lenny's like, okay, tell me about the rabbits again. So they sit down and George starts telling about the rabbits. And with Carlson's Luger, he does the same thing to the dog. Like the same thing that happened to the dog to Lenny. Lays him out flat. And then Slim sort of, you know, says, is it slimmer? Is it. Can't. Anyway, one of the guys basically says, hey, we're gonna go take a walk, you and me, George. And then everyone's like, what is eating those two? Like, what is the story? George says that what happened was Lenny had the gun and George took it from him and then killed Lenny. And that's. That's sort of the end of the tale. So, thoughts before I sort of move on?

[A]

It's so such a bummer.

[B]

It's terrible.

[A]

Heartbreak.

[C]

Oh, yeah, it's real bad.

[B]

Are you gonna talk about where the title comes from?

[C]

Yes, I am.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I have the poem pulled up. Do you want to read it, Thomas?

[B]

Sure. I don't want to read it in the original because I'm sure you see it's written in Scots, so, like, it is. We would not understand the words. So it's a poem by Robert.

[C]

I think if you do it in an accent, it'll help a lot.

[B]

Oh, I'm not. If you're gonna do an accent, that's obviously you doing it. I would read the English translation.

[C]

I actually have the English translation pulled up as well. Do you wanna do that one? I'll do the Scottish one.

[B]

And then you wanna read the whole thing.

[C]

Why don't you do the English first? Okay. And then I'll read the. Let's do Scottish first accent.

[A]

This is what we want to do.

[B]

Do I want to really want to do this? Does A.J. want to? Yes. It'll be perfect.

[C]

I'm always the guy who does the accent. I don't have to. I mean, I. I don't like. I just feel like you actually understand it better. I'm not gonna do a full Scottish accent, but it's written kind of in. There's no way to avoid it. So we sleek it cower and timorous beastie. Oh, what a panics in thy breasty Thou needna start away so hasty. And I'm not like, that's what? I'm reading it as it is written. Start away so a w a and then say Hasty s a e Hasty. We bickran brattle. I wad belaith to rin and chase thee wi murdering prattle.

[B]

So the translation. Little sleek, cowering, timorous beast. Oh, what a panic in your breast. You need not start away so hasty with bickering prattle. I would be loath to run and chase you with murdering ploughstaff.

[C]

I'm truly sorry. Man's dominion has broken nature's social union and justifies that ill opinion which makes thee startle. And at me, thy poor earth born companion and fellow mortal.

[B]

I'm truly sorry. Man's dominion has broken nature's social union and justifies that ill opinion which makes you startle at me, you poor earthborn companion and fellow mortal.

[C]

That one's not. That stands as not.

[B]

That's pretty good.

[C]

This one's rougher. I doubt no wiles, but thou may thieve. What then, poor beastie? Thou men live a daemon ichor in a thrave is sma request. I'll get a blessin wi the lave and never miss it.

[B]

I doubt not sometimes that you may thieve. What then, poor beast? You must live. An odd ear in 24 sheaves is a small request. I will get a blessing with what is left and never miss it.

[C]

Thy wee bit howsie too in ruin. It's silly. Was the Windsor strewn and naething now to big a new en. Oh, foggage green and bleak, December's winds ensuin Bathe Snellenkin, your small house too

[B]

in ruin, its feeble walls the winds are scattering the and nothing now to build a new one. Of coarse green foliage and bleak. December's winds ensuing both bitter and piercing.

[C]

Thou saw the fields laid bare in waste in weary winter comin fast and cozy. Here beneath the blast thou thought to dwell till crash the cruel coulter passed out.

[B]

Throw thysel you saw the fields laid bare and empty and weary winter coming fast and cosy. Here beneath the blast you thought to dwell till crash the cruel coulter passed out through your cell.

[C]

The Coulter being a plough.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

That wee bit heap o leaves and stibble has cost thee mony a weary nibble. Now thou's turned out for a thy trouble but house o' erhald to thole thy winter sleety dribble and cranroot cowled.

[B]

That small heap of leaves and stubble has cost you many a weary nibble. Now you are turned out for all Your trouble without house or holding to endure the winter's sleety dribble and hoarfaw

[C]

and hoar frost cold but mowzy thou art no thylane in proving foresight may be vain the best laid schemes O mice and men gang aft egli and le us nob grief and pain for promised joy.

[B]

But mouse, you are not alone Improving foresight may be vain the best laid schemes of mice and men Go off to rye and leave us nothing but grief and pain for promised joy still

[C]

thou art blest compared with me. The present only touches thee but och, I backward cast my eye on prospects drear and forward Though I canna see, I guess, and fear still you are

[B]

blest compared with me. The present only touches you but oh, I backward cast my eye on prospects dreary and forward Though I cannot see, I guess, and fear so maybe. So it's a Robert Burns poem. And the scene is this farmer's out and he is plowing or whatever and comes across a mouse. And it's kind of his apology to the mouse of like, hey, this is like, you only need a little bit of food. But now look at all like, your house is destroyed. It's the winter you're not going to be able to rebuild.

[A]

You just like, plowed your little burrow.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, I'm sorry, but. And then it gets to that end part of like. Yeah, it's not just you, it's all of us. Like, whatever we plan often goes wrong and we're worse off for it because we had hope. And now that hope is gone.

[C]

But at least you only live in the present and you're just. You'll just get busy and get. Get another house. Like. So that's where it comes from. It does, I think, lend a little perspective to the. To the book, which we'll get to in a second. So a couple of things that might help with symbolism or with theme. Everything does happen indoors. Like I said, it's very claustrophobic. Everything is enclosed and dark and smelly. When they go and visit Crooks, people who come and leave. It makes note of the rattling chains of the horses as people come in and as they go, which is sort of talking about the rattling chains of slavery. I would not say that this is a racist book. In fact, I don't think Steinbeck himself was racist. There was a couple things that he didn't like because they had racist undertones or overtones. He seems to be on the side that Crooks is just as much man as everyone else and has gotten sort of a raw deal. In fact, Crooks talks about his early life when he, you know, had had a much better thing going on. And now he is the only black person for miles. And even in town there's like nobody. And so now he gets sort of a raw deal, which is a huge bummer. So there's the rattling of the chains, there is the constant planning that they all sort of make and don't even realize that it can sort of happen until much later. There's a time when Slim is talking to George. And so Slim looked through George and beyond him. Ain't many guys travel around together, he mused. I don't know why. Maybe everybody in the whole dang world is scared of each other. It's a lot nicer to go around with a guy, you know, said George. A powerful, big stomached man came into the bunk house. His head still dripped water from the scrubbing and dowsing. Hi, Slim, he said and then stopped and stared at George and Lenny. So that guy is Carlson as he comes in. But that seems to be a piece of it is that everybody is sort of alone, alone and frightened of one another. And this is kind of the exact same thing that that Carlson or that crook's saying. So let's see, Crooks said gently after they had sort of talked and he had threatened. Maybe you can see now you got George. You know he's going to come back. Suppose you didn't have nobody. Suppose you couldn't go into the bunkhouse and play rummy because he was black. How'd you like that? Suppose you had to sit out here and read books. Sure, you could play horseshoes till it got dark. But then you got to read books. Books ain't no good. A guy needs somebody to be near him, he whined. A guy goes nuts if he ain't got nobody. Don't make no difference who the guy is, long as he's with you. I tell ya, he cried. I tell you, a guy gets too lonely and he gets sick. George gonna come back. Lenny reassured himself in a frightened voice. Maybe George come back already. Maybe I better go see. Crook said. I didn't mean to scare you. He'll come back. I was talking about myself. A guy sets alone out here at night, maybe reading books or thinking or stuff like that. Sometimes he gets thinking and he got nothing to tell him what's so and what ain't so. Maybe if he sees something he doesn't know whether it's right or not. He can't turn to some other guy and ask him if he sees it too. He can't tell. He's got nothing to measure by. I see things out here. I wasn't drunk. I don't know if I was asleep. If some guy was with me, he could tell me I was asleep and then it'll be all right. But I just don't know. Crooks was looking across the room now, looking toward the window. Lenny said miserably, george wouldn't go away and leave me. I know George wouldn't do that. The stable buck went on dreamily. I remember when I was a little kid, my old man's chicken ranch had two brothers. They was always near me, always there. Used to sleep right in the same room, right in the same bed. All three had a strawberry patch, had an alfalfa patch. Used to turn the chickens out in the alfalfa. On a sunny morning my brothers sat on a fence rail and watch them white chickens. They was. Gradually Lenny's interest came about to what was being said. George says we're gonna have alfalfa for the rabbits. What rabbits? We're gonna have rabbits in a berry patch. You're nuts. We are too. You? Asked George. You're nuts. Crooks was scornful. I seen hundreds of men come by on the road, on the ranches with their bindles on their back and that same dang thing in their heads. Hundreds of them. They come and they quit and go on. Every dang one of them's got a little piece of land in his head and never a gosh darn one of them ever gets it. Just like heaven. Everybody wants a little piece of land. I read plenty of books out here. Nobody ever gets to heaven and nobody gets no land. It's just in their head. They're all the time talking about it, but it's just in their head. He paused and looked toward the open door. Open door for the horses were moving restlessly and the halter chains clinked. A horse whinnied, I guess somebody's out there. Crooks said Baby Slim. Anyway. That feels again to sort of be one of those sort of like drawing together moments of at least you have somebody. I don't have anybody. And the absolute crushing loneliness of everyone there. You find out that that Curly's wife hates Curly. She thinks he's a mean person. She sort of went with him because she had been told she would go to Hollywood and that didn't really pan out. And he was there and so she got with him. She hates him. She doesn't like him. That's why she's giving the. The eye to everybody. And she is hoping that eventually she'll make it to Hollywood.

[A]

Aren't we all? Aren't we all?

[C]

I know Curly's sad because his wife doesn't really like him. Everybody's just really crushingly lonely in this book.

[A]

It's an American book.

[C]

It's kind of sad.

[B]

But I mean, what do you. Do you agree with, like, so the. So, yeah, there's this, like, tragedy of Lyney. Right. Like, but like, isn't it trying to say that, like, things are worse because these people all have something they hope for in the future that they're not going to get? Like, even your example with Curly's wife, it's like, she could. She could have companionship. She could be pleased with what she has. And instead it's like, I need the next thing.

[C]

Yeah. Everybody sort of has that thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Even sadly, Lenny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a lot of. They all. A lot of them have their, like, their own personalities that, like, their own. Even their sort of sins that are getting in the way. Right. Like, Curly could have a happy life if he wasn't such a big, like, hothead.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And the girl. What's the. What's the woman's name?

[C]

I'm not even sure it ever says. I think it's just Curly's name.

[A]

Curly's wife.

[B]

Wait, who's. Oh, sorry. No, I was gonna say Candy, but that's not right.

[C]

No, no.

[A]

Curly's wife could be content, but if she didn't sort of have, you know, the desire to want to be a Hollywood movie star.

[C]

And somebody said she was a natural once, clearly flirting with her and she's taken it to heart.

[A]

Yeah. So, like, everybody, everyone has these desires for contentment, but everyone doesn't know how to go about getting them. And then there's always going to be somebody there that's going to take advantage of your desire. Like they mentioned, oh, the $50 turns into $5 because of what cat houses and booze places and all these, like, temporary billiards houses. All these sort of temporary things that kind of amus. And.

[C]

But then.

[A]

But then Steinbeck's got his. Like, even the men that plan, even the men that are trying to do it the right way, like, the crushingness of modern society is going to make that impossible for you. And.

[C]

Yeah, there's that. That overtone of, like, the rich get it and the poor never get it. I mean, they do all the work.

[A]

This is Steinbeck. We're talking about.

[C]

Yeah, they work for 11 hour days bucking hay bales and they never get the money. But somebody else gets all the fruit of the land that they're working on. Yeah, but it doesn't excuse them for their cat housing and pool yards. Like they could get it if they could actually just keep the money.

[A]

That's right. So you have this like, you have personal responsibility. There is opportunity in this land of plenty. But there is also like jerkbags who are exploiting you. And you, you know, you do have this resentment between the worker and the owner. And then you've also got the latent racism of poor crooks who's, you know, stuck in the house by himself and that's driving him crazy and resentful.

[C]

And you have the random selfish ranch hands. The only person that seems to have anything really about him is the mule driver, Slim.

[B]

Because what's. Because Slim is not like a wealthy person, is he? Or he?

[C]

And he's not, it never really talks about how.

[A]

But he's just a man who's like, Slim is somebody who is, takes great satisfaction in his craft and doing what he can do. Well.

[B]

Yeah, I guess that's my question. Like, is this all Slim as an option too? It doesn't have to be. You're caught up in whatever your, your, your sin is. Like there is someone who is well off, but he's not, he's not the son of the owner. There's not like some advantage he has. He's just a hard worker who is good at what he does.

[C]

Right.

[A]

What's the relationship between George and Lenny like? What is George keep Lenny along? Is it selfish? Man, this guy works real hard and therefore like I should hitch my rote to him. I can kind of like, is George exploiting Lenny or is there actually like mutual affection there? Like they like each other, they're buddies.

[C]

I think George keeps on talking about how if Lenny was gone, his life would be a lot easier. And he says this in front of Lenny, he's like, man, if I didn't have you, I could, I could go to all the cat houses I want to and have a good time in the pool yards and I wouldn't have to keep on going and working like this and it would be a lot easier for me. And Lenny's like, look man, I'll just go live in a cave. You can have all the ketchup. I will go live by myself. And he's like, you can't do that. You wouldn't survive a day. And what he Says repeatedly is that he's just used to him. They started going together and I think everyone else that's around them realizes like, hey, at least you have somebody. Yeah, right. At least you've got Lenny. Lenny cares about you. He would protect you if he could. And he has to. He has to. Sure has to protect Lenny. But yeah, good worker, nice to hang around with. I guess it's better than nothing. And so it's the. It's like it's either that or the crushing loneliness of everybody else.

[B]

Cheery.

[C]

Well, the fun thing is that Steinbeck lived this life briefly when he.

[B]

He was a ranch hand or whatever he was.

[C]

He was at Stanford and grad. He did not leave with a degree. He went intermittently for six years and then left. But in part of that after leaving Stanford, he was a bindle. Bindle guy and he would go and work at ranches. And so this is a life that he actually knows pretty thoroughly. And one.

[A]

That weird California man.

[C]

Well, it also pops up in. If you ever watch Yellowstone, like apparently there's.

[B]

I have not.

[C]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd recommend it. It's. It's a. Not a cheery show. It's kind of hard to watch sometimes. And there's one of my friends pointed out that has this weird false bravado thing like men are men and women and it's kind of silly.

[A]

Well, that's that guy. The guy who. Terry Sheridan. Is that his name? The guy who produces it or writes it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Sheridan.

[B]

Is it? Tyler.

[A]

Tyler Sheridan. Tyler Sheridan. Terry Sheridan. I mean he's that guy. Like he did that with Landman.

[C]

Yeah, Landman is a fun show, but it also has that weird false bravado like Taylor.

[A]

Taylor Sheridan. Yeah, it's just kind of like this feels a little schlocky.

[B]

Super popular though, right?

[C]

Yeah, I watched it. Yeah, I. I had a good time. But you just.

[A]

He. Blinders. It's in that same category for me as just kind of like this is just stupid.

[B]

Never watched it.

[C]

Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed. The funny thing is that one of the. One of the episodes that I'm sort of putting together is Kierkegaard's the Despair Unto Death or the Sickness unto Death. And he's talking about how everyone is in despair that you either despair at being yourself or despair at not being able to be yourself. And that seems to be everybody's problem here, except for Slim, is that they wish they were someone else or something else was going on and that leads everyone to despair.

[A]

Yeah. It's just the rootedness, the rootlessness, right? Like, they don't have a land. They don't have a place. They don't have a people. Like, this is a very. I always think of this as a very American story, right? Like, it's a new land. You don't have. These are people that don't have traditions, don't have homes, don't have places. They're kind of wandering around and they're looking like, hey, where can we set roots? Where can we do our thing? Where can we have our. Where can we get our little piece of paradise? Let's have some rabbits, have some alfalfa. All of our problems will go away. No one will run us off the land, right? Like, where can we get back to the garden? Where can we get back to paradise? Where can we have our. Our place in this world? And that. You contrast that to, like, very European stories, which is. Which are. Like, we've been here forever. This has been, you know, like, this is our home. This is our place. Don't make us change. Don't make us leave, right? Like, and we are. Maybe those stories are, like, maybe we're haunted by the ghosts, or we. We feel, like, a tremendous sense of burden, of responsibility to keep something going. Sort of American story is we feel this tremendous anxiety of not having a place. And we really. People or a time or community or friendship, and we're lonely, and we want to. We want to find a place where we can, like, build that thing. And even. As opposed to forces conspiring against it.

[C]

Even as opposed to medieval stories, which is like, there is a hierarchy and someone messed it up and the universe is punishing them for messing with the hierarchy. Like, that's definitely not this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm wondering if the poem is sort of hinting that the happy one here is Lenny, because he lives in the present, kind of like a mouse. Like, is it better to be Lenny or is it better to be somebody else? I mean, Lenny obviously is looking forward to having rabbits, but I don't think he feels that same rootlessness. He enjoys thinking about the rabbits, but anytime he's got something fuzzy to pet, he's in a pretty good place.

[B]

But he is looking forward to that farm.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

That's what comforts him in the end. Before he's killed.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But the thing is, so does George. George has his. Little. George has his pets that he wants to pet. Right? He's got the idea of the farm, of the future, of the. He's got his Future hope that he retreats to when he's in a bad place. Right.

[B]

I agree. So clearly, you know, the first animal killed is a mouse. So, like, it. Is it those animals along the way that are killed like they're better off because they only had this life in the present and they don't have this future thing to hope for. I did have the same question about whether Lyney is like, clearly there's like a progression of the. Of what. What is being killed. So is he. Yeah. Is there trying to be a point about, like, Lenny's actually the best one off in all this. And I'm not sure.

[C]

I'm not sure he is. I don't think he is because he's still. He's also looking forward to something if you.

[A]

It's like you love the thing too much, you kill it. Right. Like you. You hold on. You hold too hard to this thing that you think is going to get you there, is going to make you happy and. And you crush it. You destroy it by mistake. It's like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You accidentally do present damage in whole and wanting the future thing. Right.

[C]

So this is such a bummer. Yeah, it's a huge bummer. Which. Okay, I don't think is bad. It's a bummer. One. One common thing I hear from a lot of especially Christian classical educators is there's no redeeming element to the book. And I would say there's. There's not really like, there's nobody in here that you are supposed to emulate. Nobody really grows. Nobody really becomes better. Except maybe Slim, you could maybe emulate, but he's not doing great things out there. There's no real redeeming element. And I think requiring a book to have that is a misstep. I think that we don't need something to emulate necessarily in the positive. I think it's fine to look at either an expression of human anxiety and say, yes, this is sometimes what I feel and that's bad, or to have something not to emulate in the negative. Right. I should not do this. I should not make silly plans that I don't know are going to come out. And if I do, I should hold them lightly. I can do my job. I can try to find someone. Even though loneliness is sort of a default. Like, I think I always sort of recoil when someone says, this book has nothing redemptive in it, therefore we shouldn't put it on the curriculum. I think that's folly. I think we need warnings and we need expressions of human anxiety. Because there is maybe a little. A little bit of solace that comes out. Like, oh, I also feel lonely, but I don't have to. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yes, it does. I mean, a steady diet of it is a bummer. Like, I couldn't finish season five of the Wire. Like, it's the same thing, right? Like, the television show the Wire is very much like a Steinbeck thing. It's like here is. Here is like the American reality and. And it's. We're going to make it as depressing as possible.

[B]

The last season.

[A]

Yeah, the last one.

[B]

Have you seen the final clip of.

[A]

No.

[B]

So it's also like a crushing moment of like, there is no improvement.

[C]

Really.

[B]

Yes. And the thought you just had is what I was gonna say of like, if you're only consuming this, I think that is what is gonna grind you down. But like, it's a novella and if you read 100 pages of it and then contemplate your kind of folly and the things you hope for, that can't actually be. I think that's fine. But if, like every book you read

[A]

is this, or if you say Steinbeck is all there is, like, that's pretty terrible. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think if you couple this with something like east of Eden, with the whole Tim Shell thing, like thou mayest choose something.

[A]

I. I mean, I even think that Steinbeck.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I find east of Eden even still to be a little.

[C]

It's a little dark. I mean, he was agnostic at the end of his life and so he's communist. I don't like that. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

[B]

Have we done east of Eden?

[A]

I don't think we have.

[C]

We haven't done east of Eden. It's probably good.

[A]

I love east of Eden. Love the book.

[C]

It's a great book. We probably should.

[A]

But it's also like we. He. Simon's got a little bit of a. Like we should feel guilty for having the desires for a better life. Like, he. He has this kind of thing about it. That man is blame worthy for wanting to be. To improve the themselves.

[C]

This is.

[A]

This is a criticism I have of Steinbeck.

[C]

I don't think that's entirely fair because. What about Hamilton? Right in the. Isn't that an east of Eden? The guy, Sam Hamilton, he's sort of industrious. He invents all these little fun things. No.

[A]

His farm's in disrepair and badly managed because he doesn't know how to like, take care of it.

[C]

But he's happy as a cat.

[A]

Exactly. That he's happy as he doesn't know how to improve himself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think there's. There's part of this is like. I think Steinbeck's got this, like, when man wants to control and like, improve himself. Only other. Only human misery comes from this. He's easy.

[C]

He's like.

[A]

We should probably do a greater task of like, laying out this argument. But my sense of Steinbeck is that he's somebody that believes that, like, human ingenuity and progress is a net negative for you, for humanity. And he's much more of this, like, sort of primitivist. We should just sort of like, return back to simpler times, which I have a lot of sympathy. No, I have a lot of. I have a lot of sympathy for.

[C]

But is he a better written fight club?

[A]

He's in the same. He has the same kind of like,

[B]

tear down the system.

[A]

Yeah. He may have a little bit of.

[C]

Yeah, like a little bit like the system is against you and.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or.

[A]

Or even like a Holden coffee. Like, he may be a little bit of a Catcher in the Rye. He's in that kind of, like, I want to hold up a mirror to society and have you be sort of recoiling in horror. Which is why I think a lot of people like, like him. Like him. And also, he wasn't popular at the time, right?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, he was a little popular. He won some prizes and a lot of his books were made into movies in it. And even when he wrote like the Pearl, he knew it was going to be turn into a movie almost immediately, so he was doing all right.

[B]

I'm wondering also if what he's arguing. Not even arguing, it's a story, obviously. But the thing he's criticizing here is not progress, but it's like these false hopes. Like you think you will be better when you're in this other place and have this other thing. And that's the lie that I think you all would agree is not true. You're still the same person once you get to Hollywood for. For example.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, there's something they have to deal with now that they're not dealing with because the next place will be so much better. And that's probably also your American story too.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's fair.

[C]

Anyway, it's a bummer we didn't have time to do. I had another short story in my back pocket in case we didn't talk about. Of my syndrome for very long. And it's the Pearl. I probably won't. Maybe we can discuss that in our in between. Sure, I probably won't do an actual episode on it, but it's the same kind of vein of, like, when you aim your sights too high, the world will kick you down. So on that cheery note, bummer.

[A]

Well, this has been Classical Stuff. You should know with Graham Thomas and A.J. and whatever you were planning on doing for the rest of the day, just like, maybe tone it down a little bit.

[C]

You'll be the same person when you get there anyway.

[A]

No, you can. If you have questions or thoughts, you can email us at the guys classicalstuff.net you can patronize us on Patreon Classical Stuff, wherein we have AMAs and a little chat bot. Not a bot, it's us.

[B]

We're the bot.

[A]

A chat thread where we all talk about stuff, post pictures of our dogs, and you can find us on Twitter. But don't, because I don't tweet.

[C]

Thomas, do you have a dog?

[B]

I do have a dog.

[C]

Okay, so you guys post pictures of your dogs.

[B]

I have never posted a picture, so Graham posts.

[A]

Not just me, other people post pictures of their dogs.

[C]

Oh, that's true. That's fair.

[A]

Me.

[B]

That must have been a year ago at this point.

[C]

It's been a while.

[A]

Yeah. And you can listen to all our old episodes. And that's it.

[B]

Thanks, everyone.

[C]

Thanks for listening. Bye.