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Classical Stuff You Should Know
303: Planet Narnia: Jupiter and Mars
01:04:08
Because astrology is for everyone.
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- [00:08]
A
Hello and welcome to Classical Stuff youf Should Know, a podcast about planets, but only the medieval ones. My name is Thomas Magbee. I am joined, as always, by Mr. Graham Donaldson.
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B
Hi.
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A
And Mr. A.J. hannanburg. That's me. And today we are here to continue our series on children's literature. I'm sure a very, like, nice, not at all academically dense conversation of. You're gonna summarize a few children's stories for us. Yeah, summarize. Thankfully, there's not much to them. Right. There's just a straightforward story, little adventure story. Yeah. And you definitely don't have a larger book next to it that is analyzing the first one.
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B
No, I've been teasing this on the Patreon. And we are gonna talk about the Chronicles of Narnia, but not in the Chronicles of.
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A
What? What?
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B
Narnia. Let's make it happen. Yes, we're gonna talk about Narnia. Like, yeah, comedy skits from SNL 2007 or whatever that. Whenever that came out.
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A
True.
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B
But this isn't a. Like, what we do when we read books and we sort of summarize them or we do them, we make. Create little primers for them. This is mainly. I want to give some credence to a thesis, a theory proposed by a. I think he's an Anglican priest, is a priest of the Church of. Yes. So Michael Ward wrote a book called Planet Narnia, and he's got this theory about the Narnia. The Narniad.
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A
Is that actually what it's called?
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B
They call it the Narnias. Yeah. About the Narnia Chronicles, about an internal coherence to them. Because people of. So Narnia chronicles, written by C.S. lewis, children's fiction. And there are seven books. The lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, in no particular order. The lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the Magician's Nephew, Prince Caspian, Voyage of the Dawn Shredder, the Silver Chair, the Horse and His Boy and the Last Battle. Those are the seven books. And Lewis, you know, medieval scholar, lover of literature. And when you read the Chronicles of Narnia, you realize, like, he is this. These are. Books are very medieval. They have medieval iconography. It's. They. They sort of. They feel like they're hearkening to medieval England. And Aslan is clearly like a Jesus.
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A
What.
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Is there anything to these seven books? Is there some sort of, like, internal coherence to them as to why seven. Like, why seven books? And so people have been positing theories as to whether or not there was some kind of through line that sort of joins all the books together, apart from just the world building. And there's been also, because there are clearly three books that are more explicitly Christian and allegorical in their telling. The line, the Witch and the Wardrobe has the resurrection story, has the gospel in it. So, like, Aslan is killed for the sinner Edmund and. But Aslan's death destroys the magic of the white witch and brings healing and springtime to Narnia.
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Right?
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B
You clearly have this gospel redemption storyline in Aslan. The magician's nephew clearly has the creation because that's the story of the beginning of Narnia. And you have Aslan coming down and he's speaking Narnia into existence. And you have the first king and the Queen, Queen of Narnia. And it's, you know, you've got this sort of creation story and then sort of like an allegory. And then the Last Battle is very much an allegory of the final judgment. Narnia is rolled up like a scroll. You have the final judgment. All of the beasts and the animals and everyone is. Are sort of subsumed or consumed or into eternity. Narnia falls apart. In fact, all of the children die. People seem to forget that in. In the Last battle. The reason that the Narnia children are in Narnia is because they've all died in a train accident. So you kind of have these, like, horrific things for kids stories. So you clearly have three books that are Christian allegory or could be read as Christian allegory. And then there's four other books. So people are like, oh, well, maybe there's Christian allegory and all of these things and we should be reading these other books and that as like, sort of allegorical. And there's been lots of different. People have posited all sorts of different theories as to why there should be seven. First of all, Lewis said when he was asked why he wrote the books, he said, well, I either need. This is a quote from Lewis. He said, either need to write 3, 7 or 9. Those are the magic numbers is what Lewis said.
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A
Okay.
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And so this has given people questions into like, okay, well, why is seven magic? Why would three. Well, why would these be the types of books that Lewis would want to write? Some of the theories posited as to whether or not there has been some kind of coherent through line to the stories was one guy, this is quoting from Planet Narnia, said Pietras, I think, is the author's name, overlooking the fact that Lewis was Anglican Links, the Chronicles to the seven Catholic sacraments.
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Okay.
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B
Troupia relates the first three published tales to the theological virtues of love, faith and hope, in that order, and the last four to the cardinal virtues. Shackle sees a special imaginative relationship between mere Christianity and the images and stories of Narnia. Hutter finds value in the description of the Chronicles as a quote, a sort of Bible. He thinks the term is accurate enough as a label of genre, a loose collection of varied material structured to highlight the climatic events of world history begin, middle and end. Some people think that it has to do with, like, the Book of Acts. So there's been all these, like, wacky theories as to what all of these. The Chronicles have been, which Lewis has not said and Lewis has not said. But Lewis, in his. In his life, had sort of hinted at the fact that he himself had some kind of internal structure to himself. He even said, well, they needed to be three, seven, or nine. And he chose seven. So people are like, okay, why seven? What's the importance of seven? Yes, Louis. The quote is, I had to write three volumes, of course, or seven or nine. Those are the magic numbers. Lewis wrote an essay in 1940. He gave a paper that's called the kappa Element in Romance, which sounds a little strange. And kappa he took from the initial letter of the Greek word krypton, meaning hidden or cryptic. Lewis later reworked the talk as an essay on stories published in 1947. And although he dropped the term kappa from on stories, the hidden thing itself was still his main concern by this stage in his career. He tended to call it by a number of different terms, of which atmosphere is the most common. Lewis loved the medieval stories, and he loved stories that had, like, what he called an atmosphere or what he originally called a kappa, a hidden, a cryptic. I think, honestly, and this is kind of embarrassing to say, I think the best way to talk about is, like, they have a vibe. Like, they have a vibe or they have a tone, or they have a feel, or if you want to be German, they have a geist.
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Right.
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Like, Lewis liked books that kind of had a feel to them. So I was thinking about this, like, if you wanted to. And, you know, genres have feels to them. Like, okay, you saw the second Top Gun movie.
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A
Yes.
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So, like, that was a Top Gun movie, right? Like, it felt like a Top Gun movie. It had Top Gun feel to it. Yeah, it harkened back to the first one. I mean, the.
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C
Even played shirtless volleyball.
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They even play shirtless volleyball. So they had like. Yeah.
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C
Oh, there was a football in the
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second One different sports, it was football in the second one. But like, you know, movies have feels to them in not just the story they tell, but the images that they use, like shirtless volleyball or even like the color scheme, like just the way that the thing is put together.
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C
Leather jackets and dimly lit bars in America and airplanes that you would call
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B
that when you're writing a book. At least this author, Michael Ward, makes reference to the fact that, and he's taking this from Lewis, that when you're writing something you have both the logos. So that would be like the story, the thing you're trying to say, but also the poema, like the way you've put that thing together, the structure of the story, the things you've decided to put in there, the things you haven't put in there, the types of imagery that you use. In our. In between or. Sorry, in our ama, we were talking about escape rooms. And Thomas, you said, well, you try stuff because everything in that room, what
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it was put there for a purpose.
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Everything in that room was put there for a purpose. And that is, that is also true of imagery or things that you have in stories. Everything is there for a purpose. And there are a lot of strange things in the Narnia books that don't make sense. I think the one for me that got me thinking about this and then I was very excited to find this book many years ago and read it, was in Prince Caspian. Today we're going to talk about the line the Witch and the Wardrobe and Prince Caspian. In Prince Caspian there's this weird scene where Lucy wakes up in the middle of the night and they're on their like military campaign to fight the civil war of Narnia. And she wakes up in the middle of the night and she sees. Do you remember you haven't seen Prog Mandels? Oh, she sees the trees waking up and going and having like a party in the forest. And Bacchus, the God of wine shows up and there's this like bacchanalian party. And Lucy's like, what is happening? And all the dryads and naiads and there's Sylvians, which don't appear in any other Narnia book, just the Sylvians. And they're just like chilling out and they're singing and they're dancing and it's clearly a Bacchanalia. Like it's that sort of Greek, Roman style drunk party. And Aslan shows up and he starts dancing with them in the woods and. And Lucy's like, huh, yeah. And this is happening In Prince Caspian and no explanation is given to it. Lewis put that there for a reason. Actually happens twice. Lewis puts that there for a reason. And in fact, at the end of the book, the trees are the final army that chases out the bad guys. What is happening there? Why did Lewis do it? Did he just like the. Did he just like that, that element of stories? Maybe. But why put it in Caspian? And why not Don Shredder or the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe? The thesis put forward by this guy, by Michael Ward, is that that the. The through line or the tone or the vibe or the kappa, if we really want to talk about this way, that is the through line between the story is the medieval conception of the planets, the seven planets. And Lewis talked a lot about the planets. He wrote his own space trilogy as a young man. He wrote his own poem called the Planets. So Lewis loved the medieval cosmology of the planets.
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It was in his book the Discarded
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Image, the Discard Image and Allegory of Love both talk about these planets.
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A
If there are seven, which. Because he would have had Sun.
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B
Oh, so sun, moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Those are the seven. Okay, so Uranus or Uranus. How do you guys say it?
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A
Uranus.
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C
Uranus. Okay, because I'm 12.
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Doesn't make it. And of course Pluto doesn't. So those are the seven classical planets. And Lewis makes, or, sorry, Ward makes the claim that he thinks that the seven books are corresponding to these seven planets in there, not only in their po. The books are not only in their logos. There's something Jupiter about the line, the Wish and the wardrobe, but also in their poem. And so he gives a. He gives his very, very well laid out, almost to a fault, detailed example of that in this book.
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C
Can I guess that the silver chair is the moon.
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B
The silver chair is the moon. Yes. Yeah. And if. Just as a spoiler, if you want to know which ones are which, the line, the wish in the wardrobe was Jupiter. Prince Caspian is Mars Warfare, the. The horse and his boy is Mercury. Venus is the magician's Nephew. The moon is Silver Chair. The sun is Voyage of the Dawn, Shredder and the Saturnalien, the Saturnalia, the end and death of everything is the last battle. So that is his thesis. Is that so I want to give some credence to sort of Ward's description of how he sort of talks about this before we jump into the last battle. So I think today we're going to be able to get through the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and Prince Caspian and Then future episodes we'll do maybe two or three.
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So.
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So Lewis, when he writes the book, he not only has the story he's trying to tell, he also has the. The ordinance, the ordination. Sorry, the. The
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structure.
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What's it called when you like put some. Put something on your ornament. Ornamentation. The ornamentation of. Of the story. And he loved the medieval conception of the planets. So. And Lewis thought that this was an important part of writing stories. In fact, Lewis even says this, I think, in that essay where he was talking about the kappa element. This is Lewis speaking. He says a child is always thinking about those details in a story which grown up regards as indifferent. If when you first told the tale, your hero was warned by three little men appearing on the left of the road, and when you tell it again, you introduced one little man on the right of the road, the child protests and the child is right, you think it makes no difference because you are not living in the story at all. If you were, you would know better. Motifs, machines and the like are abstractions of literary history and therefore interchangeable, but concrete imagination knows nothing of them. So Lewis really thought that all of the little elements in a story that made up the vibe or the atmosphere or the hidden kappa element were really important. And. And so they gave the story its kind of flavor. Okay, so. But nar. But Lewis also hated when people would. He would actually probably really be upset that this book exists because Lewis didn't really like the people, like, looking for these hidden elements. He just wanted you to kind of like live in the story and enjoy it. But Ward posits his thesis that the medieval planets made up sort of the vibe of all these different things. So the planets. Lewis writes about the planets in his History of the English literature in the 16th century, that the planets and Christian imagery were tied together. That in the. In the medieval Christian mind, it was not heretical to think that the planets had some kind of. Of pull or sway on Human Affairs. A.J. you talk about this in your. In your ninth grade class. Can you give like a little brief primer on like this medieval conception of the universe?
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So the planets exerted an influence on mortal men. And so where you were born, what planets in the sky would change kind of your internal makeup? And then beyond that, when a planet was up in the sky, it would change how men behaved. That's why people acted a little bit different during a full moon or anyway, so this influence, we actually, that's where we get our word Influenza, the flu that used to mean You've got the planets doing stuff to you, like when people would get the flu. So every planet does its own thing and it's also associated with a metal. So for example, the moon grows quicksilver. Or mercury. No, that's Mercury. Sorry, I'm wrong. Moon is silver.
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I think moon is silver.
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Moon is silver. Mercury grows quicksilver. And if someone is called mercurial, it means they have like a tendency, kind of like the planets. So for example, the moon makes people wander both in body and in mind. And so if I've got moon brain, I would be a lunatic. Right. I have to do with the moon. And so that's why, I guess Silver Chair is because he loses his mind, his mind wanders. There's also the enchantment.
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Bewitchment.
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There's enchantment. It's. It's all kind of pointing back towards the influence of the moon. Yeah.
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So if you understand kind of like the symbolic landscape of everything that the planets represented to people. Jupiter is the planet of king kingliness, then you would see its influence in these stories. So Lewis talks about this or this in.
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C
Are you going to go through the list of.
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I will go through. Okay, so Ward. Ward makes reference to Lewis's depiction of the planets. Let me just read this passage. This is word speaking, for it must be emphasized that the pre Copernican model of the cosmos was a Christian model despite its acceptance of astrological influence. As Lewis points out in English literature in the 16th century, astrology and astronomy were not really distinguishable until the Copernican revolution. And no Christian theologian before that time denied the general theory of planetary influence or the significance of constellation. The planets were not to be worshipped or regarded as determinative in their influence
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or used for divination.
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Right.
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And the lucrative and politically undesirable practice of astrologically grounded predictions was to be avoided. But within these parameters, the Church was content to sanction what we would now call astrology. After all, the Bible appeared to support this belief that there were seven planets and that they possessed influences. The author of the Book of Judges records, they fought from heaven the stars in their courses fonts against Sisera. Lewis alludes to this verse in out of the Silent Planet the stars in their courses were fighting against. Weston, the author of the Book of Job, as translated in the King James, mentions the sweet influence of the Pleiads. How do you pronounce that consolation? Pleiades.
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C
Pleiades.
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Sorry, the Pleiades. Lewis glances at this version in his poem My heart is Empty with its inference to the heaven shedding sweet influence still on earth. And throughout the Bible, the stars are seen as signs, most notably as Bethlehem signifying the birth of Christ and sometimes as celestial court or angelic choir. Christ himself, Himself is shown in the book of Revelation holding the seven stars, that is the seven wandering stars, the planets in his right hand. A vision that Austin Farrer, Lewis's close friend and an expert in apocalyptic imagery, understood to be a portrayal of Christ's lordship over time. For it is after these seven that the weekdays are named. Saturn gives Saturday its name, the sun, Sunday, the moon, Monday, and so on. Okay, so Lewis had this idea that like, the. The planets, the seven medieval. The Christian conception of the medieval planets was an important.
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What.
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What was an important part of the Middle Ages and was something that had its own, what he called like a spiritual symbolism to it, that they had this. All of these different associations. Like AJ Was talking about. The moon is associated both with. With wandering and crazy and change and mutability and. And Mercury was. Was associated with like, making money and going on trips and voyages, being witty and being witty. And Venus was all about like, propagation and motherhood. And Saturn, we probably. Saturn is the one that we most are familiar with today because we still talk about like, things being Saturn alien or everybody sort of thinking that like, everything sucks or the world is ending or like everything is death and decay and destruction and nothing is meaningful. And that's sort of the Saturn mood. And if Saturn governs your life, you are going to be a very, you know, sort of. You're going to be a. Well, I guess I don't know if it's a. Maybe it's the curmudgeon, but you're going to be someone that.
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A
Yeah. So is there anything you would separate from like this view of astrology with like, what our listeners are thinking when they hear astrology?
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Yeah, so I mean, like modern astrology. I don't know anything about modern astrology because I don't. I avoid that weird part of TikTok.
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You check your horoscope every day.
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B
Yeah. But my guess is that some. Again, sort of like the occult and the astrology and tarot made a big comeback in the 19th century among the aristocrats of Europe, Even going back to like the scientific revolution. So like the. The 17th century, 18th century was like the heyday of you had massive explosion in science and you also had massive explosion of like, desiring magic. And so you had. This is when you had like occultism and orientalism and tarot and astrology kind of made a comeback and it took the stuff from the Middle ages and, and sort of ran with it in its own direction. You see that influence if you go read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, right. Like you can talk about young Frankenstein, read all these like dark magic books when he was a kid. But those dark magic books that he read were actually books written in the middle ages and you know they were actually. And this sort of hermeticism and attempt to understand the unity of everything was divorced from any kind of Christian view worldview of in the 18th, 19th century and then has kind of grown into its own new age crystals and astronomy and astrology stuff that we have today. It's kind of grown into its own, its own thing. But maybe the planets influences, I don't know.
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A
Wondering if that's where you're going.
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B
Well Lewis seemed to think so. And definitely the moon does affect people.
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A
When you say that.
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Oh well the full. I mean so go ask any pharmacist when like all the crazy things happen with people in terms of mental instability and stuff. It always like it happens way more during the full moon People women give birth more during a full moon like
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C
these things but how full the moon is is just how much light is bouncing off of it. And that makes a difference not just if it's in the sky.
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Has to do with gravitational. Has to do with the closeness of it to the earth. Right.
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C
Let's see that. That I could maybe say okay like there is a gravitational impulse. We see it in the tides etc etc but how much is coming from like off the sun onto the moon? That seems a little bit.
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A
I believe our peer reviewed study will be next episode next year.
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C
I'm dubious you to be totally dubious. I think totally worse Google like crazy right now.
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A
There's magic in the world.
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B
There is magic in the world. And I would, I would completely wholeheartedly dismiss all of it. Except the wise man were saw knew that Jesus was coming because of the sky, because of the stars. I can't deny that.
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A
So that they got meaning from.
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They got meaning from the heavens.
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A
Yeah. And that means like therefore they were.
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There's something to it.
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A
I'm trying to think of what you mean by it but okay.
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B
It's more that there's something to it that like because people would say oh wasn't anything to do with astrology was just like a bright star that like had an arrow pointing that way and so they followed it. Yeah but I don't know. Anyway whatever. So Lewis calls these, these Sort of the, the. The symbols of these planets, sort of spiritual symbols, meaning like the opposite of body or material motions, passions, memory and imagination. The immaterial but wholly natural dimension of human nature may, Lewis thinks, be usefully termed soul. It can be good or bad. So, like, certain planets are embodiments of certain kinds of, like, emotions or imaginations, memories. Saturn, for example, is death and destruction. And like meaningless warfare, Jupiter is proper government and the rightly ordered king. And Mars is the necessity of violence. Like, there's all these. These sorts of different kinds of associations. All right, so let's get into it in terms of Narnia. Let's see now, the books themselves are very much. Lewis is wanting to propose and a very medieval feeling world. The. They have knights, they have suits of armor, there's kings, there's queens, there's chain mail, there's swords. There's also all the things they loved in the Middle Ages. There are maps, the language of the Middle Ages, the. The courtliness of Reepy Cheep, the dresses that the girls wear, the love of geography and cosmology and cartography, the love of maps, wizards, books. This is very medieval. He's not writing a book which is, yeah, witches. He's not writing a book that's set in ancient Rome, you know, sort of vibe. He's not setting a book set in like, colonial America vibe. He's setting a book set in medieval Europe vibe. So you already have the opening there to. To talk about this, to be thinking about the planets. But then the other question is, does the book give you license to interpret the book this way? I talk about this a lot, that if you're going to be interpreting something in the story, the book needs to give you the permission to interpret it that way. So Romeo and Juliet spends a week is the classic example. It spends a lot of time using sort of celestial body imagery. Arise, fair son. But what light through yonder window breaks? It is east and Julie does the sun. Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon. Juliet is the torch. Juliet is the fire. Romeo is the night. Romeo, like the book gives you in its poema, the book gives you in its. In its. In its ornamentation, license to interpret it that way. And Ward argues that planets and cosmology are all over the Narnia books, and here's some examples. Jupiter is only one of the seven medieval planets to be directly named in the Chronicles. It is seen apparently in our universe as Diggory and Polly are being world between worlds and the magician's nephew within the sub created world of Narnia itself, we are given to understand the heavenly bodies are different. They are the bright Narnian stars, nearer than our stars in the world. Give some other examples in addition to this Narnian astronomy, there is a good deal of astrology in the series. In Prince Caspian, Dr. Cornelius interprets the conjunction of two noble planets, Tarva and a Lambill. And later in the book, Glenstrom, a prophet and stargazer, tells Caspian that the heavens augur well for an attack on Mira Miraz. In the Last Battle, Runewit informs Tyrion that there are disastrous conjunctions of the planets and. And that the stars never lie in the horse. And his boy Rabadash believes that things come about by the alteration of the stars. In Voyage of the Dawn Shredder, Lucy thanks her stars and the silver chair. Two centaurs tell Jill and Eustace about the influence of the planets. The air of Narnia often has effects making people feel younger in the Magician's Nephew, for instance. For instance. And stronger in Prince Caspian. So like the story itself also embodies the. This belief that the planets in the heavens influence human affairs. So that's in the book. So you can, you know, so like we have license to be able to be thinking that the. The Narnia world, just like how it has, you know, images of medieval Europe also has medieval Europe beliefs in it. Something that Tolkien didn't like about Lewis's Narnia books. He didn't like that there was this crossover. He didn't like that Greek gods made their way into the Narnia stories and all this kind of stuff. Anyway, so let's get to Jupiter. So Jupiter is according to Ward, the book the planet that animates the lion, the witch and the wardrobe. So before we get into it, any questions, any. Any sort of clarification we need to
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A
have this feels like an episode setting up for AJ's like drop the bomb and 47 minutes. But yes it does because there are some. I don't know. I guess I will just register my. I have questions.
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B
Sure.
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A
Which I think we'll get. It will be helpful to see an example. But even some of. Wouldn't you say some of the examples he just gave proving that like astronomy is important to the story are like turns of phrase.
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B
For sure. I didn't read all of them. He has a much more exhaustive list of everything in here. The very fact that like in Voyage of the Dawn Shredder, they meet a star and the stars and Eustace Is like, you don't look like a star. And he's like, well, you know, our stars are made of burning balls of gas. And the star says, that's just what they're made of, but not what they are uses is like, what? So there's like all sorts of. Yeah, there's all these different examples.
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C
I don't think I'll be dropping a bomb in 40 minutes. I'm actually kind of fully on board with even. Even I haven't read the book. I've just heard people hint about it and I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Like Louis, he wrote the Discarded Image and he's the one that I learn about all these influences from. He's definitely the kind of nerdy guy who would organize his books around planets. And just thinking about the Silver Chair and how much that would line up with moon based stuff, it's kind of really hard to avoid.
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A
And I guess as you show an example, my question is, is this deepening a reading of the book in some way or is this just an observation of like, oh, there seems to be Jupiter vibes here.
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B
It's. It's more like, yeah, I don't know if it deepens it in a way. It definitely gives you. I don't know if you go as far to say. Actually I think you could even go as far as to say as Lewis wrote the Silver Chair because he needed a moon story. And Lewis wrote the Magician's Nephew or the, the Horse and His Boy because he needed a mercurial story. I think you can go as far as to say that that almost makes
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A
more sense because I think you started there of like, about three of these books make sense. And then the rest you're like, why is this here?
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B
Yes. Why does this exist? And also like, why are some of the elements there, including some of the really grotesque, tragic elements, like the death of the children in the last book
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A
or they go to Narnia, man. It's not tragic. It's beautiful, man.
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B
Exactly.
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C
I mean, I think you may have used it as just like good inspiration and an organizing principle. And I don't know that you have to know this stuff to enjoy Narnia. No, of course you don't. But at the end I think, huh, that's cool. Like, that's where I end up. It's not like this deepens my reading,
- [32:09]
B
but I think it kind of explains, like, why does he have Caspian sail to the End of the World in Dawn Shredder? Like, what's the point of that?
- [32:16]
C
Story.
- [32:16]
B
Like what. What is the. What is that story trying to say? Does it have some sort of allegory to Christian life? And I think the answer is not really. It's a story about the sun or it's. It's a story that was inspired by the planet of the sun in the Middle Ages.
- [32:29]
A
I guess I will wonder if for those three that have a more thematic, that have a non planet theme to them, will. Will this framework make less sense? Yeah, yeah.
- [32:40]
B
So let's. Let's start with one. Because the line of Bush and the rowdrobe is jovial is Jupiter. Okay, so Jupiter is known as Fortuna Major. It is the most fortunate. It is the. So some of the planets are good planets and some of the planets are evil or not evil planets, bad planets, but they're not bad in that. Like they're sinful. They're bad in that men do crazy
- [33:02]
C
things when they're in the sky.
- [33:03]
B
Men do things because the world is fallen. The influence that they wield on humanity. We'll talk about this more when we get to Mars. But the influence they wield on humanity is harder to do good with them than. Than evil with them. But not with Jupiter. Jupiter is Fortuna Major. So here's what Lewis talks about Jupiter in the discarded image. Jupiter, the king produces in the Earth.
- [33:26]
A
Oh.
- [33:26]
B
Because every planet produces a metal in the Earth. Produces in the Earth. Rather disappointingly, tin. This shining metal said different things to the imagination before the canning industry came in. The character he produced in men would now be very imperfectly expressed by the word jovial and is not very easy to grasp. It is no longer like the Saturn character or one of our archetypes. We may say it is kingly, but we must think of a king at peace, enthroned, taking his leisure, serene. The jovial character is cheerful, festive, yet temperate, tranquil, magnanimous. When this planet dominates, we may expect halcyon days and prosperity. In Dante, wise and just princes go to his sphere when they die. He is the best planet and is called the greater fortune, Fortuna Major. So in the beginning of this chapter, Ward spends a lot of time talking about like and Lewis spends the time talking about this, that we've kind of lost the conception of jovial and Jupiter kingliness. And as modern people, we very much understand satirine. So I think in a couple of episodes, I can't remember when we talked about it, but we've lamented the fact that like a lot of modern heroes are like tortured or they're like the Anti hero. And even though they're like the hero, they're also like really distraught about the state of the world. And this is what it means to be a hero. You would even have like. You could even take the. The happiest hero of them all like Superman and have Superman be like troubled. That is, I don't know how to
- [35:01]
C
deal with my two identities.
- [35:02]
B
That's right. That is very much satirine feeling. Like this is. That is. We are well acquainted with. With Saturn, which is the planet of being like bummed out. It is the. It is the in fortuna major. Saturn is. It is the great, the greater misfortune, the great fortune of. Of Jove of Jupiter. This is the.
- [35:23]
C
The.
- [35:24]
B
The good king enthroned on his throne where it can be everything from like hobbits in their. In their whole like happy to have a great lunch. I think hobbits and in many ways the beavers in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe are great visions of like loving peace and prosperity and pleasure and heart ease for its own sake. That is a jovial influence. And then also the magnanimous king who wants good and does good and is. And rules the kingdom wisely and justly is under the jovial influence.
- [36:02]
C
It's like kingly mirth. I don't know that we have a good. When we think party, we think like red solo cups and puking a garbage can. But back then it was like, get in your finest clothes, go have like good drink with good people in peace, at rest usually after hard work. It's kind of a, I don't know, a regal celebration, happiness kind of thing.
- [36:21]
B
Joviality.
- [36:22]
C
Joviality.
- [36:25]
B
So Lewis lamented that there was too much Saturnalia post World War I in writing and in stories. And he thought poets were too. Like, the world is ending and everything is sad in the lost generation. And we have to remember that Lewis was also in the trenches. And Lewis experienced the gas attacks and the shell shock and all the shells and everything. And he for whatever reason was able to come home and kind of like put that in its emotional place and. And it didn't, you know, unlike his contemporaries like Sassoon and. And some of these poets that, that it completely. I don't want to judge them for it because it was a horrible thing. But it was also like. Lewis was a little frustrated in what he called the. A literary Manichaeism, a dislike of peace and pleasure and heart ease. Simply as such. He's like, just because there was a terrible war doesn't mean that like pleasure and good things are not important. And he. So he really wanted this to rediscovery of this joviality. All right, the line the Witch and the so the book talks a lot about joviality and Jupiter in his other poetry and in his stories. But in the line the Witch and the Wardrobe, Ward says this about about Jupiter. Perhaps the best way to approach the joviality embedded in this tale is by looking at the central turning point of the story, the change from winter to summer. So the lion, the Witch and the Royal Drove is supposed to be a story of what it is like to go from mundane or bad or frozen or hunkered down or completely oppressed to the sudden joy that comes with things being made right. And the central part of that, that is the influence of Jupiter, that is the influence of Job. And so he said the central change of the story is from winter to summer. Let's see if I can find. Would be a mistake to think that this seasonal change is simply a way of depicting the advent of generic new life. Of course it does depict new life, but it does more. It also conveys the peculiarity jovial spirit for Jupiter brings about Quote Winter's past, winter's over, gone. He talks about in the Allegory of Love he overmatches the freezing waste and unendurable cold of Saturn and defeats frost wither winter, stone, steel a all producing torrents of melted snow. These are all quotes from various Lewis writings. This jovial, this sort of. In the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the asal influence of the jovial Christ accounts for this key ar architectonic feature of the story. The overthrow of the White Witch's reign. She has made it always winter, always winter and never Christmas. Think of that. Always winter in Narnia, always winter, but it never gets to Christmas. But this Satocentric world is about to be brought to its end. Summer is incoming in to underscore the connection between Aslan's coming and the change of seasons, Lewis includes an old rhyme which prophesies this very occurrence. When he bears his teeth, winter meets its death and when he shakes his mane we shall have spring again. And he even goes at length. I don't know if I want. If you want me to read this entire section, but he talks about the section when Aslan goes through Narnia and breathes and melts all the snow and flowers come and the sledge of the White Witch is no longer working and she keeps whipping the horses and keeps saying faster, faster. And Edmund is looking around and seeing all the beautiful flowers. And the dwarf is like, keep your eyes to yourself. And Ward is saying that this is probably Lewis's at his most trying to sort of show what this Jupiterian, this jovial spirit of like, rightness returning to a wrong place, which is, you know, very. Which is why it's always very allegorically new Christ's kingdom. But is also this the. The symbolized by. By Jupiter, the planet. So that is the one story is that the central part of the story is winter to spring, which is already a very jovial thing. And the second one is kingliness, the major jovial theme which find constituting the line the witch and the wardrobe killing us. Kingliness. This theme is introduced in the very first description of Aslan. The children are told that he is not a man as they had assumed, but the King of the woods and the son of the great emperor beyond the sea. Don't you know who is the king of the beast? Beasts. In case they miss it, they are told again almost immediately. He is the king. Aslan is a true king who has a crown and a standard. He is royal, solemn, royal and strong, with a great royal head. Nowhere else in the Narniad is Aslan depicted as royal. And then Edmund. And then. So Edmund is swayed with the idea of becoming a king, but not in this, like, divinely ordained way like you have in the medieval idea of the best kind of king. Like God has ordained the king to come. But Edmund is told by the White Witch that he will be a prince and king of King of Narnia when I'm gone and he will sort of usurp the throne. Edmund prefers the usurping Queen of Narnia and Empress of the Lone Islands to the King of the Beasts and the prospect of sharing sovereignty with his siblings. The White Witch has ensnared him with her declaration that he wants a boy who would be king of Narnia after I'm gone. And soon afterwards she promised him, you are to be the prince. And later on the king. Edmund is convinced that in his destiny he thinks about Turkish delight and about becoming a king. And I wonder how Peter will like that, he asked himself. And horrible ideas came into head. He wants to be prince and later king. And to put Peter out for calling him a beast. He resolves to make some decent roads when I'm king of Narnia. And this set him off thinking about being a king, etc. Etc. Etc. So contrasted with this almost mythical poetic vision of the kingliness of Aslan. You've got this sort of like base human vengeance. Lust for power, Desire for rule in Edmund Bureaucracy.
- [43:15]
C
Yes. Like I will make some infrastructure.
- [43:17]
B
And so in there you're already contrasting this good vision of the jovial king with sort of like the corrupted vision of just sort of power for power's sake. The story is very regal. You have Caer Paravel, which is talked about its tapestries and its royal nature.
- [43:41]
C
Whenever he tapestries, all I can think about is that scene in Indiana Jones when he's there. I'm here to investigate the tapestries. Remember that scene.
- [43:48]
B
I've only watched Indiana. Indiana Jones movies like once when I was.
- [43:51]
C
Really.
- [43:52]
B
I haven't seen them recently.
- [43:52]
C
Indiana Jones, the Last Crusade is a solid one.
- [43:55]
A
It's good.
- [43:57]
B
Other elements that ornament ornate the story.
- [44:03]
C
Ornamentize.
- [44:04]
B
Ornamentize the story to lend itself to this jovial reading. And I kind of admit I actually think this would. This is not the best chapter to have started his book with because I think it's not the. I think he's right, but I don't think it's like the most convincing one to start with. I think A.J. you're right that the Silver Chair or Prince Caspian are the easiest.
- [44:22]
C
Silver chairs. Hard to dodge.
- [44:23]
B
It's hard to dodge. But he does say that the. The coziness of the Beavers. The Beavers who are sort of living in hope that Aslan will return. Ward says the Narnian beavers and their cozy dam become a little outpost of jollity in this pre. Jovial or de. Jovialized world. Like they're trying to create the warm, homey, right. Rightly ordered life in a world that is disordered and frozen and. And cold and dead. There is the AJ you were talking about the mirth of the king. And Aslan has that when he is awakened, when he's raised from the dead from the stone table, all he wants to do is romp. And he says that he romps in the field almost like a giant cat. And it seems to be almost like, you know, a little embarrassing that he's sort of romping and rolling around in this Jokund revel, okay? The happy, laughing romp, which Susan and Lucy enjoy with the resurrected Aslan. According to some Lewis's writings on Jupiter. Jupiter influences people so that they turn into, quote, Helms of Nations, which is just what the four children have become by the end of the tale when they are hailed, crowned, sceptered and enthroned at the helm of Narnia. In fact, at the very End of the Lion, Witch in the Wardrobe. They are old when they're hunting the White Stag, which is a very kingly revelry, jovial thing to be doing. And they are like, you know, depicted almost as like Charlemagne and these sort of like glorious kings. And then they turn back into little kids again, again at the end of the book. Jovial nations are just and gentle. It is significant that Edmund is given the title Just and Susan the title Gentle Peter. Peter's title is also jovial. He is known as magnificent, which Lewis had said was a mistranslation in the Middle Ages for magnanimous. And. And Lucy is given the title. I think she's Valor Valiant. She's given the title of Valiant. According. According to Lewis, understanding of Jupiter in one of the. In one of his poems that he wrote as a young man called the planets Jupiter brings about wrath ended in woes mended. And he even goes off in this chapter to talk about some of the smaller elements that are depicted apparently in a lot of medieval texts in about Jupiter. Oak trees are. The main tree of Jupiter as well, are minotaurs, for some reason. And both oak trees and minotaurs show up in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and they do not in the other books take that for what it is. And so you have this. And then sort of the four children kind of transcend being like average ordinary kids and they kind of like grow up into these almost mythical figures themselves. And then they are always, you know, when they come back in later books, they're like, your prince, you're king. Hi, King Peter. I would have thought you'd be taller.
- [47:40]
A
Right, right.
- [47:41]
B
Because in the minds of Narnia, these. These kings and queens of Narnia enter into this, like, this status of high king and this idea of, you know, sort of this. This Jupiter thing. Now, if that was it, I would. I don't think it's. That would be very convincing on its own. But that's just one of the seven. And so that was Jupiter. So Jupiter is associated with the line the wish and the wardrobe. And if you go into the book with sort of like your eyes and ears open for that kind of language, royalty making nations, right. Joviality, mirth, it comes up everywhere. All right, let's go to the next one, which is Prince Caspian, which I think is way more convincing. And Prince Caspian is Mars. So Mars is the planet that has to do with war and fighting. It is known as the. In Fortuna Minor. So it is a bad planet, but not bad in that the planet itself is evil but bad in that it's kind of like neutral. So like there are lots of martial vices. Coldness, cruelty, trouble, haughtiness. Careless. Not carelessness, yeah. This is sort of those mercenary gracelessness, insolence, coldness, haughtiness, martial cruelty. Those are the vices of Mars. There's also the virtues of Mars. Righting wrongs, rescuing the meek, laughter, beauty, keenness, blitheness, happiness, achievement, courage, strength.
- [49:23]
C
And men who are born under that are usually like sturdy and hearty.
- [49:25]
B
Yes, men who are born under Mars are. And hard is a good word because that word shows up a lot in Prince Caspian. Is hard. He hardened his face. He gave her a hard look. That comes up a lot in the book. The book is they literally come back to Narnia in the middle of a civil war. So Mars is associated. Yes, with war. And Mars is also Mars Sylvanus. So there's Mars, I think it's like Mars Gladius, which is the sword, the war. And then there's Mars Sylvanus, the God Mars, before he was the God of war, was the God of agriculture and plants. And Sylvanus is horticulture, Sylvanus is plants. So it would follow that if this book really was going to have this Martian quality, martial quality, wouldn't just have war, it would also have plants. And it does. Everywhere in fact, plants. The trees come alive and drive out the telomeranes at the end of the book, just like in Macbeth. So this is when Lewis wrote his poem about planets. This is what he said about Mars, which kind of gives you the Martian vibe. I'll just read it. So this is how he talks about the God of war, necessity's son. I'll just read it. But other country dark with discord, dins beyond him with noise of nakers, neighing of horses, hammering of harness. A haughty God, Mars mercenary, makes there his camp and flies his flag, flaunts laughingly the graceless beauty, gray eyed and keen blonde insolence of his blithe visage, which is hard and happy. He hews the act, the indifferent deed with dint of his mallet and his chisel of choice. Achievement comes not unhelped by him hired gladiator of evil and good. All's one to Mars the wrong righted rescued meekness or trouble in trenches, with trees splintered and birds banished, Banks filled with gold and the liar made lord like handiwork he offers to all, earns his wages and whistles the while white feathered dread Mars has mastered his metals. Iron that was hammered through hands into holy cross cool carpentry. He is cold and strong. Necessity's son. So this is Mars. He can be used for good righting wrongs or he can be used for evil like. Like cracking dudes heads just for power. And his thesis is that Prince Caspian is the Martian. The martial book. The poem of it as well as the logos and the poem meaning the like the images that he uses. So they come back to during a civil war in Narnia later on is known as the great War of deliverance. It was a real war to drive Miraz out of Narnia. The book is in the. In the. In the story Caspian is sort of like this little. He's a guy in the woods. He's almost like a guerrilla force getting all the badgers together to fight.
- [52:38]
A
Let's see.
- [52:39]
B
See. It is a real war to drive Mraz out of Narnia and restore the kingdom to Caspian. At the start of the story he is a mere boy, hardly aware of the martial spirit which is already abroad. When Glenstrom tells Caspian I and my sons are ready for war. When is the battle to be joined? Caspian replies that he had not been thinking of a war. Glenstrom asks why it is then that he goes clad in mail and girt with sword. He informs him that the omens are good. The prince planets foretell's success nerved. Caspian thinks it's quite possible that they might win a war and quite certain that they must wage one. So he convenes a council of war. The council authorizes action and Caspian leaves the skirmishing forces as they engage the usurper's army. Once the Pevenses arrive, Peter challenges Moraz to Monar Monomarchy. Moraz is killed not by Peter, as it turns out, by bone of his own men Glaselle. After which just battle is joined. So it is very warfare battle. You have all sorts of different things akin to war. Rescuing the dwarf from the soldiers. They have a sword, ship and archery test. Caspian's father is revealed to have been murdered in sort of like political treachery. The the children are attacked by arrows by people that they can't see in the woods.
- [53:55]
C
It's all pretty wild for a children's book.
- [53:57]
B
It is the fight with the werewolf and the hag. They rediscover their old armor and when they put them on they feel like they've gone from being like little British school children to being kings and queens of Narnia again. And to drive the point home, the Chess piece that they find from their old chess set when they find ruined care. Paravel is a knight. Now whether or not that's on purpose or not, who knows.
- [54:24]
C
But I mean, I mean he didn't accidentally write knight.
- [54:26]
B
Yeah, he had to pick something. He even, you know, re cheep. This is the book where re cheep comes in. This is I think is there's even reference in the book that when one of the trumpkin is talking to Lucy about the war. Lucy says that Narnian history is quote worse than the War of the Roses.
- [54:48]
A
Oh,
- [54:51]
B
so you know there's that. The heir of Narnia talks about changing the boys back into hardiness. Ward says this. The boys do not simply harden, they become nightly. In Prince Caspian, knightliness is one of the key recurring images we hear of knights errant in the ruins of Cara Paravel. We see rich suits of armor like knights guarding the treasures. Peter is knight of the most noble Order of the Lion. Edmund is knight of the Noble Order of the Table, a very dangerous knight. Caspian is knighted. And then instantly knights Truffle, Hunter, Trumpkin and Reapycheep. Even the chess piece discovered at the start of the story is a chess knight. Peter is the model knight able to hew the treacherous and murderous to pieces. Slashing his legs from under him and walloping off his head with the backswing of the same stroke when he kills the werewolf but gentle enough to kiss the furry head of the badger. He has physical courage risking his body in single combat. But also pays attention to forgotten and seemingly unimportant traditions. The bears hereditary right to be marshals. He is sensitive to his army's morale cheering up Wimbleweather by appointing him to the parlay. Adroit in decision making. His handling of the bumptious Reepicheep is skillfully diplomatic and the self effacing towards Caspian. I haven't come to take your place, you know, but to put you in it. He demonstrates the acme of knightliness and refusing to attack Mraz when he is down. This to the frustration of Edmund. Oh bother, bother, bother. Need he be as gentlemanly as all that? I suppose he must come of being a knight and a high King. This is that nightly behavior in which morality up to the highest self sacrifice and manners down to the smallest gracefulness and etiquette were inextricably blended by the medieval ideal. And what governs that ideal but the virtues of Mars, the knightly order and Peter is the example is that Mars is when we get the month of March, the ides of March were very much in the Roman time, a time of sort of martial and the sort of time when the Mars festivals happened. Caesar was killed in the ides of March, backstabbed by his own men. Moraz is backstabbed by his own men in treachery. And, and he hasn't, he wasn't like paying enough attention to them or whatever they, whatever they killed him for. Let's see other examples of this. So that's the first one. That is the marsh, the Mars as a warrior. And then there's also Mars. Sylvanus, which is Sylvanus is, is Mars was also the God or the, the planet of horticulture and plants and woods and nature and, and this kind of thing.
- [57:37]
A
So
- [57:39]
B
there is that in here. Like I talked about, the trees awaken and have this little, this, this time when they are reveling with Aslan Sylvan Mars Sylvanus. And there are. They're Sylvanus meaning woods. Sylvans is also, is often talked about as being sort of the gods of the forest. There are Sylvians in Narnia that help fight the battle against Mraz and there's no Sylvians in any other Narnia book. And then you have this like weird, yeah, this weird bacchanalian revelry where the trees wake up and have this kind of like party where they're drinking wine and hanging out and Lucy sees them and Aslan's joining in and then she's like all right, well guess time to go to war. And you're like why is this in this book? Well, the thesis is, is that it needs to be there because that is, that is very Martian. That is very Mars planet language. And then if you also go through the book with your ears open for, for language about plants and, and, and trees, you'll find it anywhere. In fact, the Telomarenes when they retreat, they find out that the bridge that they can retreat over to their safety had been. Had been destroyed because wild ivy had grown up and destroyed the bridge to cut off their retreat. And so you have almost this like very almost like the woods of Burnham Wood from Macbeth playing this role. This is just the, the, the trees are described like this in that revelry. Pale birch girls were tossing their heads. Willow women pushed back their hair from their brooding faces to gaze on Aslan. The queenly beeches stood still and adored him. Shaggy oak men lean in melancholy elms, Shock headed hollies dark themselves. But their wives all bright with berries and gay rowans all bowed and rose Again shouting Aslan. Aslan. In their various husky or creaking or. Or wave like voices. Why have this in the book? You know, and. And this author's Michael Ward's thesis is that you need to. This is because that's. That's the. That's Mars Sylvanus. That is what the planet is all about is. It's about the necessity of war. And then also kind of like this unity of nature and all this. This. This kind of thing. He then ends the chapter talking about how as the characters spend time in the Narnian air, it harden them, hardens them back not only to doing difficult things, but to being brave. Lucy buried her face in his mane to hide from his face. But there must have been magic in his mane. She could feel lion strength going into her. Quite suddenly she sat up. I'm sorry, Aslan, she said. I'm ready now. Now you are a lioness, said Aslan. And now all Narni will be renewed. And then she has to go wake her. She has to go wait the. The. The rest of them to go off to the battle. It was a terrible thing to have to wake four people, all older than yourself and all very tired for the purpose of telling them something they probably won't believe and making them do something they certainly won't like. I mustn't think about it. I must just do it, thought Lucy. And then even Susan gets brave towards the end of the book. You have listened to Fierce Child, said Aslan. Come, let me breathe on you. Forget them. Are you brave again? A little, Aslan, said Susan. So even like as they spend time in this story, they become more knightly and brave and they get those sort of more Mars virtues as the story goes on or supposedly so if you believe the thesis. So those are the.
- [61:29]
C
Not digging real hard.
- [61:31]
B
Oh yeah. Or this is all crazy dog. So those are the first two books. We'll go. We'll. We'll talk. We'll. Now that we sort of laid the groundwork, we can go through the other ones a little quicker. But this is. Yeah, this is Michael Ward's thesis about the unity of the Narnia stories. I'm super curious what people think. The book is well worth reading, although it is very exhaustive, which adds to the credence of the thesis, but is also like it can be a huff to read.
- [61:57]
C
Does he believe it looks longer itself than the actual Narnia books?
- [62:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Is he saying that Lewis went into these books with this framework?
- [62:05]
B
I think so.
- [62:05]
A
Okay.
- [62:06]
B
I don't think it was accidental. I think Lewis, when he maybe. I think if Lewis wrote the lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe first, I
- [62:14]
C
think he may have done that.
- [62:15]
B
And then I think Lewis maybe wrote the line the Witch and the Wardrobe first. And we also know that Lewis kind of had a. A literary ax to grind because he really wanted to talk about joviality in a world that seemed to be like, super into, like, sad. And so he wanted to tell a story of like the right king and also talk about how. Why this is true of Christianity and how Christians shouldn't be sad. Like Christians should be looking forward to the resurrection and the time of when and Christ has already made things new. And so we need to recover that virtue of the jovial spirit. And so I think he may. He pretty much had that in mind. And then when he did that, he's like, well, I gotta write seven now. And. And then did that and then wrote the rest of them.
- [62:58]
A
Okay, yeah, this has been. Anything else?
- [63:01]
B
No, that's it. We can talk more in the. In between, but yeah, I want to know if you guys buy it.
- [63:05]
A
No, but I don't think I'm in classical stuff. This has been classical stuff.
- [63:09]
C
You should know.
- [63:10]
A
Thank you all for listening. You can find us on Patreon. Patreon.com classical stuff we post in between episodes. So right after this we're going to record more discussion. Post that on Patreon. If you support us there, you can get access to that. We do monthly AMAs and there's like a chat feature and you can talk to us and it's cool. So sign up there. You can find us on YouTube. YouTube, YouTube.com classicalstuff you can find us on Twitter or X, whatever. X.com classical stuff. You can email us the guys@classicalstuff.net and I think that's it. Thank you all and we'll be back soon.
- [63:46]
C
Bye.
- [63:59]
A
Sa.