304: Kierkegaard's "The Sickness Unto Death," Part One

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 304: Kierkegaard's "The Sickness Unto Death," Part One

Air Date: July 21, 2026
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the philosophical depths of Soren Kierkegaard’s “The Sickness Unto Death.” A.J., Graeme, and Thomas explore Kierkegaard’s exploration of despair, the nature of the self, and what it means to be in spiritual and existential crisis. With humor interlaced throughout, the hosts aim to demystify Kierkegaard’s dense philosophy and relate it to modern questions about depression, anxiety, and personal meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction: Kierkegaard and the Sickness Unto Death

• The hosts begin with banter about classical painters, before announcing that today’s topic is Soren Kierkegaard.
• Why Kierkegaard? A.J. explains his motivation: “It’s something that I end up talking about with my students a lot. Anxiety and depression and trying to…say, okay, what have philosophers said about this?” (04:03)
• Kierkegaard’s work is framed as a response to the failures of the Enlightenment ideal: reason alone isn’t enough for meaning.

2. The Self as Synthesis

[05:55 - 08:15]

• A.J. reads directly from Kierkegaard:

  "The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self..." (05:44)

• Simplified: The self is the relation between the infinite and the finite, the eternal and the temporal, freedom and necessity.
• Graeme summarizes: “You are eternal mixing with temporal…freedom, necessity, all those things. And so what you are is these two things, these two parts of yourself relating to each other.” (07:44)
• Kierkegaard assumes the soul is eternal but does not attempt to prove it—he calls materialists "philistines" (09:17).

3. Despair Defined and Diagnosed

[08:25 - 12:35]

• Despair: “Despair is a sickness in the spirit, in the self…a misalignment in our synthesis.” (04:32)
• Universal nature: “Almost everyone is in despair…that means you’re probably the lowest form of despair.” (11:48)
• Healthy Self:

  “When despair is completely eradicated…by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which posited it.” (09:08)

• In layman’s terms, peace comes from being in right relationship with oneself and with the power that created you (i.e., God).

4. Is the Possibility of Despair an Advantage?

[12:36 - 13:40]

• Graeme: “If you don’t [have the possibility], you’re not conscious of yourself…The ability to go wrong is better than no ability to go wrong.” (12:49)
• A.J. reads Kierkegaard:

  “The possibility of this sickness is man’s advantage over the beast…for it implies the infinite erectness or loftiness of being a spirit.” (13:17)

• To be capable of despair is to be truly human.

5. Despair Must Be Constantly Eradicated

[15:12 - 18:48]

• Unlike physical sickness, despair is something that must be purged “every instant.”

  “Every actual instant of despair is to be referred back to possibility. Every instant the man in despair is…contracting it.” (16:04; 17:28)

• The metaphor: Despair is like ants on a counter; one must fix the underlying mess (the synthesis), not just sweep ants away.

6. Universality of Despair

[21:52 - 26:47]

• Kierkegaard believes despair is nearly universal; if you think you’re free from it, you’re likely mistaken.
• Thomas is skeptical: “You’re going to tell a bunch of people who think things are fine in their life that, no, secretly, you’re in despair? That doesn’t make sense.” (23:45-24:13)
• The hosts note the modern mindset is more open about having emotional struggles compared to Kierkegaard’s era.

7. Surface Disorders vs. Root Despair

[28:51 - 29:23]

• Many try to attribute their despair to external events (“I feel awful because of this stuff”), but Kierkegaard says you still have despair regardless.
• Graeme’s analogy: “You think because she broke your—like, I’ve been so sad because I got dumped. It’s like, no, you’ve just been using getting dumped as…the descriptor for the deep despair that you feel…” (29:24)

8. Types of Despair – Synthesis in Tension

[32:48 - 49:09]

A. By Synthesis:

• Despair of Infinitude: Losing oneself in imagination/fantasy—neglecting the concrete realities. (34:55)
• Despair of Finitude: Losing oneself in the day-to-day, becoming just a "number" or "cipher"—the NPC, unreflective life. (37:17)
• Despair of Possibility: Overwhelmed by what you could be, stuck in potential, never actualizing. (39:56)
• Despair of Necessity: Resigned to “what is,” no hope, no imagination; the philistine who “lives in a certain trivial province of experience.” (43:43; 45:41)

B. By Consciousness:

• Unconscious Despair: Not knowing you’re in despair; you distract, attribute your disquiet to external things, resist reflection. (50:02)
• Despair of Weakness ("Not willing to be oneself"): Conscious of despair but too weak or fearful to face or resolve it. Wishes to be different, not to be the self that is given. May retreat into distraction, substances, or solitude. (53:54)
• Despair of Defiance ("Wanting to be oneself"): Most intense. Full awareness of oneself and stubborn resolve to cling to that self—even if it is broken, flawed, or separated from God. “This is Satan’s despair in Paradise Lost…neither to bend nor yield.” (57:36, 59:14–59:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kierkegaard (read by A.J.):
  “Despair is a sickness in the spirit, in the self. And so it may assume a triple form: In despair at not being conscious of having a self, in despair at not willing to be oneself, or in despair at willing to be oneself.” (04:32)
• A.J.:
  “If you are thinking about diving into philosophy and you just…read the first paragraph and you’re like, this doesn’t make any sense. Just keep at it, friend. Maybe you’ll get there.” (04:16)
• Graeme:
  “You have this sort of freedom. But it’s also like, I gotta go eat something. I gotta poop.” (08:15)
• Thomas (with concern):
  “I’m really worried…Is this not what Kierkegaard’s saying? The soul that has no despair is one kind of like—” (10:49)
• A.J. (summarizing the Universal Sickness):
  “Just as the physician might say that there lives not one single man who is in perfect health, so one might say there lives not one single man…not to some extent in despair.” (22:11)
• On "NPC" living:
  “Far easier and safer to be like the others, to become an imitation, a number, a cipher in the car. The npc.” (37:01)
• On Philistinism:
  “Devoid of imagination…he lives in a certain trivial province of experience…Thus the philistine has lost his self and God…” (43:43)
• Despair of Defiance:
  “I will be myself if, you know, come hell or high water…this is Satan’s despair.” (58:47-59:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Philosophical Setup & Kierkegaard’s Background: 01:12–04:03
• Reading the Core Kierkegaard Text: 04:30–05:44
• Explaining/Discussing the Self as Synthesis: 05:55–08:15
• Universal Nature & Possibility of Despair: 11:48–14:17
• Eradicating Despair – It’s Always Present: 15:12–18:48
• Universality & Misdiagnosis of Despair: 21:52–29:24
• Types of Despair by Synthesis (Imagination vs. Reality): 32:48–37:17
• Possibility/Necessity Dialectic: 39:56–43:43
• Philistinism & Naturalism: 45:41–48:03
• Despair by Levels of Consciousness: 50:02–59:16

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Tone and Flow

• Blends deep philosophical analysis with casual, at times irreverent, humor.
• Frequent analogies to everyday life, pop culture, and personal anecdotes.
• While comedic, the hosts treat Kierkegaard’s subject matter with real seriousness and a desire to understand it—and to make it accessible.

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Episode Takeaways

• Everyone Suffers Despair: According to Kierkegaard, most people are in some form of spiritual despair, whether they recognize it or not.
• Despair as a Sickness of the Self: It is rooted in the misrelation between our finite (temporal, day-to-day) and infinite (eternal, imaginative, spiritual) aspects.
• Types of Despair: The worst is conscious, defiant despair—knowing one is lost, and stubbornly choosing to remain so.
• Breaking Free: Hinted solution is to be humble and re-align oneself with both the self and the power (God) that posited it.
• Cliffhanger: The episode ends before full remedies are discussed; these will be covered in Part Two.

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Closing Thought

• Graeme: “Don’t despair. We’ll be back next week.” (61:19)
• A.J.: “Seems to hint that the way to get out of this is humility—right relation with the guy that established your synthesis in the first place.” (60:59)

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For those unfamiliar with Kierkegaard (or philosophy in general), the hosts provide a lively, approachable summary. This is essential listening (or reading!) for anyone interested in existentialism, mental health, or simply trying to understand why we so often feel out of sorts with ourselves.

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Next time: Is despair a sin? And what does Kierkegaard say about escaping the sickness unto death? Stay tuned!

Transcript

[Graham Donaldson]

Hi, and welcome to Classical stuff, you should know. A podcast about classical education, classical books, old things, philosophy, literature, and things of that ilk.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I got a painting episode in the movie.

[Thomas Magby]

It's happening. Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I'm going to do one on Hieronymus Bosch and Peter Bruegel's the Elder.

[Thomas Magby]

Wow. Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

The. The Dutch school of painting in the 1400s, which is my favorite.

[Thomas Magby]

That's cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

That voice promising you things is A.J. hanneberg.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That's me.

[Graham Donaldson]

Also with Thomas Magby.

[Thomas Magby]

Hello.

[Graham Donaldson]

And I am Graham Donaldson. And today I'm pretty sure we're talking about, like, aviation or something like that, because when I came in, I said, hey, aj, what are we talking about? He said, soarin. And I was like, awesome. That sounds great. All I want. I mean, just like, above the treetops or we're all for two months. I mean, sometimes.

[Thomas Magby]

Unbelievable.

[Graham Donaldson]

You just need to rise up. All of the mundane things and you just need to float.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Can we just call Soren?

[Graham Donaldson]

Sounds great.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And this has been my episode.

[Thomas Magby]

Let's end it. Yeah. Ah, tough.

[Graham Donaldson]

So what are we talking about today?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I told you that I had a, like, a best friend in college named Soren. Named after Soren Kierkegaard by his dad, who was a professor at my college, who taught philosophy.

[Graham Donaldson]

There you go.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That's cool.

[Graham Donaldson]

The name Soren was. People in Denmark didn't name their kids Soren for, like, a generation because they didn't want to name their kid after this bummer of a philosopher.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, the other great thing is that kid that I was friends with was 6 foot 7.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, yeah. Well, Soren.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And so he got that joke all the time. It's like, you're Soarin above us.

[Graham Donaldson]

I love it.

[Thomas Magby]

That's great.

[Graham Donaldson]

No, we are talking about Soren Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher. Life of the party.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's all a big hoot and a holler with this guy.

[Graham Donaldson]

Actually, I love Soren Kierkegaard. And one of my favorite episode I think I've ever done is the Fear. Is the Fear and Trouble or the Whatever Fear and troubling was the Fear and Trembling episode. I love that.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I've never finished that book. Is it good? Yeah, I need to. So me reading this was part of the. Part of just trying to get more Kierkegaard in my life, because I don't know much about him. I know at least you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, that when, like after the Enlightenment, when they tried to evaluate the world based on logic and realized they Couldn't really do it because they hadn't really solved it. And they're like, okay, now what? Everyone had a bit of a different reaction. Like, Camus was like, I will rebel against this inexplicable world. And Kierkegaard's solution was like, yep, it's inexplicable. I choose faith. That's what I know of Soren Kierkegaard, mostly.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

There's. In the 19th century, there's a sort of movement in philosophy where a lot of the people were starting to realize the Enlightenment experiment is failing. And the Enlightenment experiment is we can use logic and reason alone to give.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

To figure this whole thing, to figure

[Graham Donaldson]

out ethics and purpose and meaning. And we don't need religion, and we don't need posits of. Of spiritual. Spiritualism or faith or anything like that. We can do it for pure reason. And we. We've had episodes on Kant where he tries to do that. But in the 19th century, there's a lot of doubt creeping in about whether or not that experiment can work in Europe. In America, kind of that doubt was sort of pushed to the side because we still sort of believe in the Enlightenment experiment with, you know, the Enlightenment enlightened republic. But in Europe, that was starting to be doubted. And so then you have people like Nietzsche, who's like, it's just power. Or you have people like Camus and Sartre, which is like.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's just like. It's nothingness. I will rebel against.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's right. Sisyphus and Sarge and Sartre is just sort of like. It's absurdism. It's just kind of. It's just blah. It's just crazy. And Kiergaard has his own take on it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And so anyway, that's not what we're talking about today. We're talking about something much more fun, which is despair. I chose just partially because it's something that I end up talking about with my students a lot. Anxiety and depression and trying to.

[Graham Donaldson]

Summertime, a nice summer topic.

[Thomas Magby]

Is that good?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So just trying to say, okay, what have philosophers said about this? What does the past actually think about depression and that sort of thing? And so I started reading this, and let me read you the first little bit and see if you guys can make sense of it. I've learned in my dives into various philosophical treatises, if you are thinking about doing this, it's not an easy book. It's definitely not an easy book, but it's one of those ones where if you don't understand what he's saying, just keep going. And maybe look back and read it again.

[Thomas Magby]

He will, like, re. Explain stuff.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. And they kind of circle back and eventually give you definitions. Just because they're a philosopher doesn't mean that they're an excellent writer. And I think I felt the same thing with Camus where I read it, and I was like, wow, these first four pages make zero sense. And then I kept going, and eventually I was like, oh, okay. I kind of like. He sort of repeats himself and goes in circles, and then eventually you kind of understand. So if you are thinking about diving into philosophy and you just. You read the first paragraph and you're like, this doesn't make any sense. Just keep at it, friend. Maybe you'll get there. So here's the first little bit. So that despair is the sickness unto death. Caption title Despair is a sickness in the spirit, in the self. And so it may assume a triple form. In despair at not being conscious of having a self. Despair improperly so called. In despair at not willing to be oneself, or in despair at willing to be oneself. So actual text. Man is spirit. What is spirit? Spirit's the self. But what is the self? Here's where it gets weird. The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, or it is that in the relation which accounts for it that the relation relates itself itself to its own self. The self is not the relation, but consists in the fact the relation relates itself to its own self.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, tracking. Yeah, for sure, I'm tracking. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You guys got it?

[Graham Donaldson]

You're down.

[Thomas Magby]

Graham, you want to take it down? You can take. You want to summarize that one for us relationship?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't even think we need to.

[Thomas Magby]

That's a great point.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Man is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity. In short, it is a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two factors, so regarded. And man is not yet a self.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay, I think I got it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, what do you got? Can you tell me?

[Graham Donaldson]

There's three. There's three reasons you despair. I can't. I didn't get the first one.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, so I can read them to you again. In despair, not being conscious of having a self.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah. So you're despaired because for your. There's like a you. You don't even think you're you. Maybe you don't have a consciousness.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

Which. Okay, number two is you are despaired because you are something you don't want to be.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

And the third one Is you are in despair because you. You recognize what you are and you don't want to be that. No. You aren't something you. I can't. Maybe not. I don't got it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, okay.

[Thomas Magby]

You are something.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Can you define this? What is the self?

[Thomas Magby]

It's this relationship.

[Graham Donaldson]

The same as a relationship to the self. The self is a relationship to itself.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay. What do you say?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah.

[Thomas Magby]

The relation to the self, but not the other relation. Yep, nailed it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes. Okay, cool. So there's a lot of important ideas here in this beginning that. That.

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's get these down.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Really do like you really like. Eventually this all. You're like, oh, I kind of get it. I read that first paragraph and I was like, I'm gonna do something else for my episode. I'm gonna go choose something new. But I kept at it, and I think it's worth it. This is only part one, by the way. There is a part two. I think part one is gonna take plenty of time. So the first thing is that the self is a synthesis. So you are. And here's the list that he gives. A combination of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and of necessity. In short, it is a synthesis.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sure, I can get behind that.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So you are eternal mixing with temporal, kind of. And so freedom, necessity, all those things. And so we. What you are is these two things, these two parts of yourself relating to each other. And it is how you relate to that relationship.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Does that make sense? So when you think about yourself, you are relating to yourself.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You're like, man, I am hungry. That is you thinking about yourself.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're temporal. You're like that.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

There is a relationship in there between you and this synthesis relationship. Does that kind of make sense?

[Graham Donaldson]

You can do what you want. You have the freedom of mind. I can be like, I'm going to think about a potato. I am going to not wear shoes today. You have this sort of freedom. But it's also like, I'm so. I gotta go eat something.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yep.

[Graham Donaldson]

I gotta poop.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. So this. His claim that you are eternal. He doesn't give any scientific backing for. In fact, later, the only evidence he gives for that is that Socrates proved it.

[Thomas Magby]

I mean, what else is there to say? How can it be otherwise?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

We actually talked about this in an episode a long time ago. It's in one of his dialogues where he talks about the eternal nature of the soul. And he proves it that when the soul begins to decay and it doesn't act, it can't Actually, like, it doesn't eat away at it. When the soul is sick, there is no loss. There is no actual decay of the soul. The soul is just kind of ugly, but it is still there. And so he's like, therefore, it's eternal. Kierkegaard takes this as an assumption.

[Graham Donaldson]

Sure.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He doesn't attempt to prove it. It's not really what he's dealing with. He just says, you are eternal and you are temporal, and that's the way things working.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. If you want to criticize Kirgaard that we're just materialism and there's no. There's no nothing internal, like, then that's a whole other conversation.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He does address you. He calls you a philistine. If that's you, you are a philistine. If you are like, there is no eternal. Everything is only temporal. He eventually gets there. But okay, so the formula for peace in this situation is. And some of these are quotes that I have all written down. I probably won't read all of them, but this then is the formula which describes the conditions of the self. When despair is completely eradicated, it is by relating itself to its own self and by willing to be itself. The self is grounded transparently in the power which posited it. So when that relationship is working and you are willing to be yourself, and when you have a relationship with the power that established the self, so there has to be God in the mix. So he posits that is when despair is eradicated. Despair is a variety of things, but it's largely disrelationship in that synthesis. So when something in the synthesis is going wonky, like, you lean too hard on the temporal or too hard on the eternal, that's when despair takes hold. You guys tracking?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, totally.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's like the. What's that meme? The, like, unbothered, moisturized, happy in my lane. Focused, flourishing.

[Thomas Magby]

I have no idea. Are you okay?

[Graham Donaldson]

I don't know that meme.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You just gave us your word at all.

[Graham Donaldson]

Oh, that's like flirt. Like, happiness is like the unbothered, moisturized happy in my lane. Focused, flourishing. No, no, no. It's like this fat guy sitting in a pond.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Are you okay?

[Graham Donaldson]

No, this is. This is. This is lack of despair. It's like you found your lane. You're, like, totally content and happy with what you've got. You're focused, you're moisturized, you're flourishing. You're in your lane. You're unbothered.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm really worried.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is. This is a soul without Despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I will say that that guy looked really comfortable.

[Thomas Magby]

He looks very happy.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He's right. Did look like he was having a good time.

[Thomas Magby]

Am I wrong?

[Graham Donaldson]

Is this not what Kiergaard's saying? The soul that has no despair is one kind of like.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He doesn't say much about moisturizing, but the rest of it's probably on the.

[Graham Donaldson]

It is a soul that is completely, like, cool with what it's got.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like this sort of like this Zen quality. Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. So before talking about the different types of despair, which he will get to, there's sort of three general headings that we're gonna.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, can I just give a defense for moisturize before we move on? Because human beings are eternal.

[Thomas Magby]

That's right.

[Graham Donaldson]

So we need to have. Be unbothered. We need to be. We need to be flourishing, but we're also temporal. We need to be moisturized. We need to, like. Our bodies need to be taken care of.

[Thomas Magby]

That's right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Fair enough.

[Graham Donaldson]

Thank you.

[Thomas Magby]

That's a great point. Thank you.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, so part one is talking about what man is and then what despair is and how we have a possibility of it. And that it's fairly universal that. Sorry. The universality is part two. So everybody has it. Sorry, guys.

[Graham Donaldson]

Everyone has despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, most. Almost everyone is in despair. Sorry to break this.

[Thomas Magby]

I had no idea.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That means you're probably the lowest form of despair. I'm sorry, buddy.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And then it goes into part three, the forms of the sickness. And that is probably the lengthiest portion and will take up the rest of the time. So part one is what despair is, and it's a. Despair is the sickness unto death, which I'll explain. Part two is. It's universal. And part three. Here are the forms. So that's kind of where we're headed today.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is there a part four, how to get out of it?

[Thomas Magby]

No.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So the whole second part of the book, like this is just part one that I'm doing. The whole second part is. It's a sin.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, good. Okay. That's.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So it sounds like it gets brighter. I don't know if he's gonna describe how to get out of it. Well, I mean, he does say that it's when you are relating to yourself in the right way and then also relating to the thing that established you.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He just gave the. What it is to be out of it. Okay, let me pose a question to you guys. Is it an advantage to be. To have the possibility of despair?

[Graham Donaldson]

To have the possibility of despair?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Why would you say that?

[Graham Donaldson]

Because if you don't, you're either not conscious of yourself, so you're like kind of like a vegetable, or you have no will and you're just like a Tom and ton. So it's like the ability to go wrong is better than no ability to go wrong because then you have the capacity to do all the good things like love and. And make the right choices and have the satisfaction and be rewarded for your right choices. In love. You.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You almost nailed it all together. Let me read you the quote. The possibility of this sickness is man's advantage over the beast. And this advantage distinguishes him far more essentially than the erect posture, for it implies the infinite erectness or loftiness of being a spirit. The possibility of this sickness is. Stop giggling, Thomas.

[Thomas Magby]

I don't. Oh, yeah, just me. That's a great point. Thanks. Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Is man's advantage over the beast. To be sharply observant of this sickness constitutes the Christian's advantage over the natural man. And to be healed of the sickness is the Christian's bliss.

[Graham Donaldson]

Here you go.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Note, friends, that I did not go into this thinking that it was going to be a super Christian book. Like, if you are a non Christian, listen to the podcast. Podcast, you are absolutely welcome. This is just what Kierkegaard says.

[Graham Donaldson]

We're gonna get you, ladies and gentlemen. We got him.

[Thomas Magby]

All right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He says, as much as the possibility of having despair is an advantage, so great is the fall of actually having despair. Right? So, yeah, it's great that we can have it. That we actually have it sucks pretty hard.

[Graham Donaldson]

The fact that we have it sucks pretty hard. What about angels? So, like, are angels capable? I guess they can. They can fall.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He doesn't discuss it.

[Graham Donaldson]

What are we doing?

[Thomas Magby]

You want to write the sequel? Like, what do you want to do? Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Angels and despair.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

All right. So emo band. Despair means the annihilation of the possibility every instant. So. And usually possibilities opposed to actuality. But here the possibility of despair is something you have to negate, basically. If you want to stay out of despair, it has to be an all the time thing. You have to always be getting rid of the possibility of your own despair. Despairing is inherent in man himself. So we tend to despair. I think that's probably comes from the fall. And despair comes when God lets the synthesis of man relating to himself out of his hand. So when God says, be what you're going to be, that's when we kind of go sideways, is when God takes his hand off. So despair must be constantly eradicated. He gives an example of a sick man. So when the dis. Relationship that is Despair has set in, does it follow as a matter of course that it continues? So once you have it, will it always keep going? He says, no, it does not follow as a matter of course. If the disrelationship continues, it does not follow as a consequence of the disrelation, but as a consequence of the relation which relates itself to itself, move past it. That is to say, every time the disrelation expresses itself, and every instant it exists, it is to the relation one must revert. So you've got some sort of disrelationship going on in your synthesis person. You are. And every instant that is happening, you must go back to a right relation in your synthesis. And you can't. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to stay despairing forever. You can fix your synthesis.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

Get on back. Back in your lane.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Right. Be okay. Moisturize. Observe that we speak of a man contracting a disease, maybe through, say, carelessness. Then the illness sets in, and from that instant it affirms itself and is now an actuality, the origin of which recedes more and more into the past. It would be cruel and inhuman if one were to continue to say incessantly, this instant, thou, the sick man, art contracting this disease like you are still getting sick. That is, if every instant one were to resolve the actuality of the disease into its possibility. It is true that he did contract the disease, but this he did only once. The continuance of the disease is a simple consequence of the fact that he once contracted it. Its progress is not to be referred every instant to him as the cause. He contracted it. But one cannot say that he is contracting it. Not so with despair. Every actual instant of despair is to be referred back to possibility. Every instant the man in despair is. Is contracting it. It is constantly in the present tense. Nothing comes to pass here as a consequence of a bygone actuality superseded at every actual instant of despair. The despair bears as his responsibility all the foregoing experience in possibility as a present. I can probably skip the rest of that.

[Graham Donaldson]

But what's his point in that paragraph?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

What's he sort of saying, like, it's not something that once you contract it, it's an always. Like you have to always be eradicating the possibility of despair.

[Graham Donaldson]

Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Getting rid of it. And if you have it right now, it doesn't mean that it has to continue. Right? You are always in the present with despair. If you have it, you can fix it. You are contracting it that very instant.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is this kind of like the, like every emotional reaction you have to a circumstance is ultimately a choice you've made.

[Thomas Magby]

I don't think choice is the right term here. Right. Like, well, no, if it's going to be a sin, he's going to say that despair is. You can turn away from it. Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I mean, I would assume that you can humble yourself and get into a right synthesis. But it is something that can happen at every instant. Right. Whereas with sickness, like, I can't just be like, and I'm cured if I have the right attitude.

[Graham Donaldson]

But you can with despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But you can with despair.

[Graham Donaldson]

You can just be like, I'm just going to stop doing this.

[Thomas Magby]

But isn't he. Because the despair is coming from an actual problem. And so it's not the, you're not just like stopping despair, you're getting yourself back in line with that synthesis.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes. So you are fixing the problem. And so if you are not fixing the problem, that is a. In the now issue. Like, you can fix the problem.

[Thomas Magby]

I guess I'm just trying because it's not like a, stop being sad, bro. Like, it's, something is wrong and you need to fix it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

And that's, I'm just trying to distinguish that of. It's not just to like, cut it out. It's, hey, you need to take this as a sign and deal with that. Not stop being sad because the sadness should show you there's a problem.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

In fact, the stop being sad tactics that we go through, he talks about later and they're all pretty destructive.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So you, it is a, you need to fix a specific problem here. Something has gone wrong in your synthesis. But, but like, it is always present as your responsibility. Does that make sense?

[Graham Donaldson]

So it's like if you have ants on your counter because you've got breadcrumbs

[A.J. Hanneberg]

everywhere, you have contracted ants, but you

[Graham Donaldson]

keep vacuuming up the ants and they keep coming out of the wall. At some point you just need to like, clean your counter and they'll go away. Is that what he sort of saying? Like, like, is it, is this a go against?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, the problem is go after the

[Graham Donaldson]

symptoms, don't go after the cause or don't go after the problem.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, this is more just like once you have it, is it absolutely going to continue? And I think that's a good question. Right. If we're talking, if I don't necessarily want to equate this directly to depression, because I think what he's talking about is maybe not necessarily just sadness. I think sadness can be a different thing. But. But it is. Isn't something that you like contract and now you have depression. It's like a. You have it. Yes, but you don't have to have it. Right. This is something you can fix.

[Graham Donaldson]

We've been doing a. There's a men's Bible study this summer at our church has been in Ecclesiastes. And it's kind of this idea of Heavel, which is what the meaningless. Meaningless. Or the wind or like. Like bad feelings will just go away. Like go away eventually. And good time, like it's. It's heavily. Like sometimes it's just sucky, but that will go away. And then it's gonna be happy again. And then sometimes it's happy and that goes away and it's kind of sucky and it's just like. It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to. It's not like you can say to yourself when you're in the middle of bad times, it's probably gonna be better later. And. And that's sort of like a wisdom.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, that's okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

And the other way around, it's like. It's also wisdom to say, like, it's these good times I'm going to enjoy because it's not always going to be this way.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But I would say that the despair he's talking about is a much deeper thing than just like, man, I can't make ends meet right now, or I'm going through some grief or that's like. To take the despair that you're actually experiencing. You can often say it is because of these horrible other things that are happening. But once those are fixed, you still have to spare. Like, despair is a different thing.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, could also just be that, like when you get in those moments where you're like, everything is profoundly unfair and life. Maybe I am. And I think Ecclesiastes can talk to that deeper despair. Yeah, yeah. Anyway.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So that it is a sickness unto death. This means literally that the end of the. It has an end outcome, which is death. But for like normal sickness, we can bodily die. Right. But the soul can't. So what happens is when you have despair where it's like logical end outcome is. Is a. You want to die, you want death, you want to be rid of yourself, but you can't.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Does that make sense? I would love to be able to kill who I am, but I cannot kill who I am. Is kind of weird.

[Graham Donaldson]

This is the punishment of hell, Right? It's like, yeah, yeah, it's never going to be different is that the demons don't even want to be themselves.

[Thomas Magby]

Right. They can't change.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, part two. The universality of this sickness, despair. Most everybody has. Seems like he's trying to. I talk about an attitude where they're like, yeah, most people are doing all right. I don't. I would not say this is the modern attitude. I think the modern attitude is like, bro, we are all struggling. But back then, he's like, he's got

[Graham Donaldson]

some modern Internet attitude.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, I think. I think when you. Back then, he's trying to say, like, despair is a real thing. Everyone's like, nah, we're all doing all right. And he's like, no, no, really, like, we are all in a pretty dangerous place. And so this whole next section is about how everybody probably has this. So comparing it again to a sickness. Just as the physician might say that there lives perhaps not one single man who is in perfect health, so one might say perhaps that there lives not one single man who, after all, is not to some extent in despair, in whose inmost parts there does not dwell a disquietude, a perturbation, a discord, an anxious dread of an unknown something or of a something he does not even dare to make acquaintance with, dread of a possibility of life, or dread of himself. So that, after all, as physicians speak of a man going about with a disease in him, this man is going about and carrying a sickness of the spirit which only rarely and in glimpses by. And with a dread which to him is inexplicable, gives evidence of its presence within. At any rate, there has lived no one, and there lives no one outside of Christendom who is not in despair. And no one in Christendom unless he be a true Christian. And if he is not quite that he is something in despair. After all, it is not a rare exception that one is in despair. No, the rare. The very rare exception is that one is not in despair. So if you have some sort of disquietude in your spirit, right? Or you are in dread of something, maybe you can't even explain it. All of that is despair. Like, so you probably have it. Even if you are in your happiest moments, you are probably worried about those happiest moments going away. And so you are in despair.

[Thomas Magby]

I'm wondering if despair is the right term, but maybe we'll get that in the book. Because I'm just like, you're going to tell A bunch of people who think things are fine in their life that know secretly you're in despair. Like, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I get this. Like, we are not perfectly living consistently or in sync with both our eternal and temporal nature. Like, I get that. But to accuse everyone of a despair that they don't know about, Like, I just don't get that.

[Graham Donaldson]

It could also be like, he is. So I was looking out his years that he was alive. I don't know enough about Danish culture, but he was born in 1815 and he died really early. So he died in 55. 1855. So he was a young guy, but, like, he's alive during a pretty good and peaceful and prosperous time in Europe. The Napoleonic wars had just ended. You have the sort of the ascendancy of England as a global power and the victory, you know, the beginning of the. Not the Victorian era, but you have, like, sort of this. This period of Europe that has just come out of a tumultuous time of revolution. And, yeah, it's kind of crappy in Italy, but I don't know enough about Denmark, but I wonder if he's sort of like, if he's coming at a time when everyone is looking at the world and saying, this is like. Like 19, like 1950s America. Like, things are only looking up from here. And he's kind of like J.D. salinger coming in and being like, you're all phonies. Everyone's like, Shut up, J.D. salinger. Everything's great. But really, he's predicting a cultural crisis that is coming. I wonder if there. There's that kind of thing going on where he's. Where J.D. salinger is like, the prophet of the 60s counterculture. May I wonder if Soren Hugard is also like, the prophet of the 19th century. Nietzsche, Kira, Dostoevsky. Because he's kind of a slight generation before them. And so he's coming in when everything's great. They're like, shut up, Soren. Like, we're doing great. We got like.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He's like, that. That itself proves your industry.

[Graham Donaldson]

We've got Jane Austen. Like, things are awesome.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

And he's like, no, you're really sad. Deep down.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's like, oh, I mean, kinda. Yeah, that's what he's saying.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah. I wonder if there's that kind of thing going on too.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Could be okay. He says, even if you don't think you're in despair, you're probably in despair. It's like not knowing you have a sickness. Right? So you're sick, but you don't know it. Maybe you've got cancer. He's like, you probably have despair, and you just aren't really aware of it. Not. And this is where it seems to me that our definition of depression will be a little bit different. If I don't think I have depression, I might not be depressed. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a clinical psychologist. I'm.

[Thomas Magby]

You would be aware of depression is what you're saying.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I would like to say so. Although maybe not. Maybe some people think they're doing fine and spend all day in bed and sad. That probably happens.

[Thomas Magby]

Whereas with despair, is it because there's an objective. This mismatch quality to it?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. He will explain later what happens when you are not in despair and kind of don't know it and what that actually means for you. We're gonna get there. This episode. So basically.

[Graham Donaldson]

But it could be like you're at the beginning of it. So, you know, you can. You can imagine somebody that's like, I like being by myself, and I don't want anybody else, and I don't want to be invited to things. And here's another day of me reading my book and being by myself and isn't this great? And no one's bothering me. And then five years later, you know, no one texts you on your birthday or. You know what I mean? And then you're like, why is. Why is the world lost its magic? It's like you have isolated yourself from Community, my friend. And you are into. And you don't even realize it until someone points it out. Like, it could be that kind of thing.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So two things. First, you are describing a very specific type of despair you'll go into later.

[Thomas Magby]

Cool.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So you're already ahead of the game. And second, I'm sorry I didn't text you on your birthday. I texted you the next day. I had a great birthday.

[Thomas Magby]

Good. I'm glad.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I really am sorry. Like, I was kicking myself.

[Thomas Magby]

That's why you bought two cakes? You're trying to make up for it?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Partially, yes. Dude.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I felt so bad.

[Graham Donaldson]

You're even gonna feel worse when I say it. Well, remember when I invited you out for dinner?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I didn't realize that was a birthday dinner.

[Graham Donaldson]

I didn't want to make it. I didn't want to twist your arm.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I'm so sorry.

[Thomas Magby]

Did you say no, or did you just not show up?

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, I just found the thing on.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I had nothing going on.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, it's Cool.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Felt so bad. I've been. But like, I know that that's a deficiency in me and I'm trying to be better about remembering people's birthdays, but I have them all on my calendar. But yours wasn't on there.

[Graham Donaldson]

The thing is, like, I don't. Like, I don't. My family's never really done big birthdays. It's not a big thing like in other people's families. We just sort of like wish each other happy birthday, maybe get a present or two, and then just kind of move on with your day.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So that is the same in my family. Like, we have never been big about birthdays. Like, I'll get a call within a four day range and they're like, hey, happy birthday.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

What are you. Like, what are you doing? You want a present? That's kind of how we roll.

[Graham Donaldson]

Same with us. As long as there's a call on it within a range, you're all good.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. So I. So I know. But I know that for some people it's really important and it's a chance to like, celebrate my friends. And so I wanted to celebrate you. And I'm sad I missed it anyway.

[Graham Donaldson]

Now, I was not thinking of that. In my analogy, you don't get called

[A.J. Hanneberg]

on your birthplace example.

[Thomas Magby]

It's like, okay, what happened recently that was like that. Yeah. All right. You said that's a specific type of despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes, we're getting there. Okay. This is the one that feels a little bit weird to me. Oh, sorry, I almost skipped this one. You may mistake all kinds of other things like transitory grief or dejection for despair, but they're.

[Thomas Magby]

Or, sorry, you think they're something else, but they're actually despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But they're actually despair. That's probably what it is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Your dog died. You're not in despair.

[Thomas Magby]

Well, no, he's not sad.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You might think that the despair that you're actually feeling, you might misplace that on all these other things that you're happening. Like, I feel awful because of all this other stuff. And he's like, no, even if that stuff was assault, you're still in despair.

[Graham Donaldson]

I see.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

This is like, you're not.

[Graham Donaldson]

You think because she broke your. Like, I've been so sad because I got dumped. It's like, no, you've just been using getting dumped as like the, the descriptor for the deep despair that you feel that as your own. Your own existential soul or whatever problems

[A.J. Hanneberg]

that you've got going on.

[Graham Donaldson]

Ouch.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He says the moment you are Despairing, You've been in despair your whole life. Different from sickness. So you can be healthy and then acquire sickness. He says at the moment you begin despair, you've been despairing, buddy. I'm not sure I buy that one. This is the one, like one of the spots where I'm like, I don't know if I specifically agree with you.

[Graham Donaldson]

I was a happy 12 year old.

[Thomas Magby]

Say one more time, what's the part you don't agree with?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So when you get despair, like the moment you get it, he's like, that proves you've been in despair your whole life. I'm not sure I buy that.

[Thomas Magby]

Can't you not get it if you've already. If you've had it your whole life? Maybe I don't. Oh, as soon as you're aware of it, that's proof that you've always.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I think maybe this is the one. I didn't fully understand this. So, listener, if you are a Sorg and Kierkegaard professor and can explain that to me, I would be happy to learn.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, it sounds like he's conflating despair and original sin in a weird way. So it's like when you become sort of conscious, you're like, man, I'm.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, he says despair is inherent in the human, like the human condition. Like we naturally despair.

[Graham Donaldson]

So he's just talking about is like, as soon as you sort of like realize that you have this human condition of despair, you realize that you've always had it, I. E. Like you've always been fallen.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Maybe, maybe it's that kind of thing Again. This one wasn't like, wasn't the clearest to me.

[Graham Donaldson]

Like doesn't have like every. This is like every sort of 13 to 18 year old at various points kind of realizes the despair, like the, the big despair of life. And they're kind of like bummed out about it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, I think it's part of. That's like part of growing up.

[Graham Donaldson]

Exactly, it's a part of growing up,

[A.J. Hanneberg]

which is another thing he talks about is the whole like part of growing up is really like a youth thing. And then he's like, nah, well, you're probably still in despair is what he says. So again, we'll get there. You guys are just jumping way ahead. Okay. You might be happy and at peace, but that might mean you are actually in despair.

[Graham Donaldson]

But Tom is.

[Thomas Magby]

I was like, okay, it could mean

[A.J. Hanneberg]

you're not in despair.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He's like, it's dialectical, so you may not know the root cause from the symptoms so dialectical. It's like things in interaction with each other. You might be completely at peace because you are a Christian who has reached bliss and all your relationships are in perfect harmony and in harmony with the Creator. You might be there.

[Thomas Magby]

Or I'm lying to myself and I'm actually in despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Or you are in the worst kind of despair where you don't know when you're in despair.

[Thomas Magby]

Blindness to my own condition.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Consciousness buddy. Yeah, so it's one of the two.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay, cool.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He says, I want some more insights. Either you're in like the worst despair or you're not despairing at all, which is great.

[Thomas Magby]

Cool.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Even if you feel happy. Happy, like happiness here rather than bliss. Happy is usually an immediate thing, like it's happening right now in the moment. And that is dread. Because you dread nothingness or the loss of your happiness. And so despair. And you might be ignorant of your despair. It's quite universal and not rare. And there's a really long quote here that I'm probably just going to skip. Basically, guys, we all got it.

[Thomas Magby]

That's was Graham's point from before. I think we accept that conclusion. Much easier now maybe than from 1849 or whatever, right? Like, yeah, despair as a common condition, even if it's vocalized by the online class, like, it's still like, that does not surprise me as an argument to say that despair is at least something we all could fall into. Which I think is what he's saying.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. Okay, here's where I think you guys are really going to want to interact with stuff. This is where he starts to explain the different types of despair and how they happen inside the synthesis. So this is like, it's the sickness unto death. Everybody's got it. Here are the types. I think this is the important bits. So he says the forms of despair must be discoverable abstractly by reflecting upon the factors which compose the self as a synthesis. Remember eternal temporal gotcha. Freedom, necessity, that sort of thing. He says consciousness is the criterion of the self, meaning. The more consciousness, the more self, the more consciousness, the more will. The more will, the more self. The man who has no will at all is no self. And the more will he has, the more consciousness of self he has also. So the more you are conscious of yourself, the more self you've got.

[Graham Donaldson]

So this is why the despair goes away. When I have a beer, probably. Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Less conscious.

[Thomas Magby]

Less conscious.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is that cool? You're less conscious of yourself.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

So like a couple beers, despair is gone.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Let's also Remember, the self is a relationship. So the more you relate to yourself, the more you are conscious of yourself, the more self you've got.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gotcha.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Right. Okay. So he's going to think about it, thinking about the different pieces of this synthesis first. And then he's going to talk about consciousness as the different types of despair. So first under the aspects of finitude and infinitude. Finitude, finitude, finitude, finitude. So he says, first, let's do. The despair of infinitude is the lack of finitude. So no kind of despair can be defined directly, but only by reflecting upon the opposite factor. So the despair of infinitude is when you, through imagination, think about like all of the. I think that's possibilities. This is. Yeah, losing yourself in. I'm right. It's losing yourself in your imagination. The possibilities of self, like the infinite person that you could become. You kind of become enamored with that. It's like people who are. Who almost get drunk on the spiritual or on religion, they. They start to neglect their immediate.

[Thomas Magby]

So. But it needs to be like infinite. So like I was thinking it was gonna be. I could be rich and, you know, jacked body and like, I could do all those. But this is like, I'm gonna be awesome like after I. Like after I die. Like what, like what's the infinite? What is he thinking about? That is the infinite here.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I think it's where you lead sort of a fantastic existence in yourself, in your imagination.

[Thomas Magby]

But that means not just like, cool things I could do while I'm a lot. I'm trying to figure out what's the difference between stuff that's like, temporally awesome versus things that are infinitely.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, let me talk about the other side. The despair of finitude is the lack of infinitude. So this becomes being lost in one's finite affairs to lose the infinite and possible self. So, quote for despair of infinitude.

[Graham Donaldson]

So you are.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You are lost in your imagination. The self thus leads a fantastic existence in abstract endeavor after infinity, or an abstract isolation constantly lacking itself, from which it merely gets further and further away. So because you are a temporal person and you exist in the real world and you've got kids and you've got a job, if you get lost in this, what could Magby be? What is like my future self going to look like? And you become enamored of all these things, you are really getting further away from your temporal self, which is family, job. And the more you get lost in that imagination, I would say maybe this is the Despair of the, like, daydreaming.

[Graham Donaldson]

I was going to say like the person who becomes horrified after like a lifetime of sort of meditation of on the infinity. Right. Like the person that neglects all earthly things to go and be, like. Be subsumed into the. The grand universe. And it turns out that it's actually this. Like, it's a horrifying vision.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, they. They also have neglected or whatever the thing. They've gotten further from the cells because their self is here in the world now, doing things right, and they're getting lost in their imagination of this possible self in the future.

[Thomas Magby]

That'd be like the wasted life, right? Like, you've been so focused on something grand that you haven't lived a life. Like, is that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah, I guess. Or. Yeah, it's.

[Thomas Magby]

It's.

[Graham Donaldson]

You've either wasted your life. That's either like the head in the clouds or it's the person that was like sort of the Gnostic trap. Like, I am going to completely shed the physical in order to get the true self, which is the spiritual. And then you find out that that's just emptiness.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, kind of like that. And then. Okay, so a quote for the opposite side. While one sort of despair plunges wildly into the infinite and loses itself, a second sort permits itself, as it were, to be defrauded by the others by seeing the multitude of men about it, by getting engaged in all sorts of worldly affairs, by becoming wise about how things go in this world. Such a man forgets himself, forgets what his name is, the divine understanding of it, does not dare to believe in himself, finds it too venturesome a thing to be himself. Far easier and safer to be like the others, to become an imitation, a number, a cipher in the car. The npc. Yes. So you can get enamored with like, maybe. Maybe the one side, the infinitude, is like main character syndrome, where you're like, I'm going to be this, like, wonderful thing. You get lost in all these imagination and you lose what you could be right now and what you are right now, and you neglect those things. And the other side is like, I just gotta get my homework done. I just gotta do this thing. And you spend no time thinking about eternal things at all.

[Thomas Magby]

But there has to be an awareness also of. I am too focused on one of those for it to be despair. Like, I have to despair that life is only doing my homework or life is only doing taxes.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I don't think so. We're talking about that. When we hit consciousness, there are people who are on, I think one side of those who don't think about it all, they just.

[Graham Donaldson]

It's like office space.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[Graham Donaldson]

When they realize that, like, he has despair because he realizes he's just an npc. Like he's just going through the motions of.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, he used to be that second one, the despair of finitude.

[Graham Donaldson]

Finitude, yeah, exactly.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Right. Where he was just. It was just day to day and he's like, oh, like I am bigger than this.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yes.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And then everyone else sees him do it and they're like, what kind of person are you?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. So he achieves consciousness, but then he neglects.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Like he gets lost in this vision of kind of what he could be and sort of neglects the person, what he is now. And eventually maybe we see the resynthesis at the end.

[Thomas Magby]

Really?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Someone read this book and then wrote Office Spaces, I think film in Austin.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Is it really?

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, yeah.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, you know, when he has his existential crisis on the. On the road and he's listening to music on the road, he's. I'm like, the cars aren't moving. That's on mopac.

[Thomas Magby]

Oh, wow.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

No.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

No way. That's great.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, so those are the two. Two of the sides, Finitude and infinitude. And then we look at the aspects of possibility and necessity. Okay, so the despair of possibility is the lack of necessity. So the self is both possible and necessary. The possible coming from imagination, infinitude and necessity coming from the actual self. Right. I think I kind of hinted at that in the first bit. The possible outruns the necessary when the spirit becomes an abstract possibility, trying out with floundering in the possible while never returning to the necessary, which means it cannot move. So again, preoccupation with imagination.

[Graham Donaldson]

That Steam library say more.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So you buy too many games, but you don't actually play them.

[Graham Donaldson]

You don't play them because you're so overwhelmed with the possibilities.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It reminds me of that poem where the woman is sitting in a plum tree and all these like, beautiful. She can't decide which thing to pick. To be a poet or to be a mother. To be an author. Like all these things. And as she grows old, those plums drop off the tree and now they're no longer a possibility. And then eventually there's no plums left.

[Graham Donaldson]

Dang.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

That feels like this. Right. You get lost in the possibility, but you've neglected the necessity, which is your day to day. The actual. Like right now, what could you do? But you don't do it because you're lost in the possible.

[Thomas Magby]

So they're each different types of despair, or is there different tensions? Yeah, different tensions.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Types of despair that could come. And this is all without consciousness in the mix, that will be the last thing. And that really is probably. I think that seems like his primary. This is where despair comes from. But these are like thinking about the synthesis, what could happen in that despair. To become is movement from the spot, but to become oneself is a movement at the spot. Possibility becomes greater and greater because nothing ever becomes actual. Everything is possible, but the abyss has swallowed the self. This is still the despair of possibility. Right. Rather than necessity. Because you can only become yourself by starting at the essential. Right, the necessity. What is happening right now, that's how you start to move. And you do stuff like if you are lost in the possibilities and only ever think about those, you'll never actually move. You are stuck. Right.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay. What is lacking is the power to obey, to submit to the necessary in oneself. What might be called your limit. For example, he gives an example of a knight. Fairy tales and legends so often relate that a knight suddenly perceived a rare bird which he continues to run after. Since the beginning, it seemed as if it were so very near. But it flies off again, and at last night falls and he has become separated from his companions, being unable to find his way in the wilderness where he now is friggin murd. So it is with the possibility of the wish. Instead of summoning back possibility into necessity, the man pursues the possibility, and at last he cannot find his way back to himself.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, it's just like, oh, what can ail the knight at arms, alone and palely loitering. The sedges withered from the lake and no birds sing.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Was that from.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's from Keats. Oh, it's where he, like, where the knight has, like he got. He didn't chase a bird. He chased a elven lady.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[Graham Donaldson]

And she wooed him, took her. Took him to her elven, elven grot. And there she weeped full sore. And there he closed her wild, wild eyes with kisses for.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So he followed this strange woman into a forest where she took.

[Graham Donaldson]

She fed him food and took him to her house. And then when the night was in her house, she started to cry.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

She just starts weeping.

[Graham Donaldson]

Correct. And then he tried to comfort her by kissing her crying eyes. And then.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Bold, bold move.

[Graham Donaldson]

And then he falls asleep. And then he has a dream that he has been. That he has been kept. That he's been consumed by la belle Dame so merci. And then he wakes up to find that he is alone and palely loitering on the cold hillside, having neglected his nightly mission.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So some sort of enchanted, enchanted lady, like, made him waste his time. Yeah, yeah, that's rough.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, it's rough. And the poem is called La Belle Dame sans Merci, which translates to the beautiful woman without pity or mercy.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But she was the crying one.

[Graham Donaldson]

Maybe not her fault. She didn't ask to be fallen in love with. She was just there. She was just being beautiful.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

She fed him and then she took him to her house.

[Graham Donaldson]

She did feed him, but he picked her up and put her on the horse. And then she whispered things that. He didn't understand her language, but he was sure she said, I love you.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I feel like this is just a case of mischief.

[Graham Donaldson]

We will do a Keats episode on the goddamn.

[Thomas Magby]

So mercy.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I would love that. Okay, so the despair of necessity is due to lack of possibility. So the other side. So we had possibility, which is you are enamored with what you could be, but you never actually do anything. This is the other side. So the loss of possibility signifies either that everything has become necessary or everything has become trivial. Possibility here, meaning hope or belief. So you are living without hope or living without belief that you can actually get to this thing that you imagine. Destruction is certain. But through God, all things are possible. And health consists essentially in being able to resolve the contradictions. So you don't want to interact with God, and through God all things are possible. And so you're like, I can't do it. Like, I'm not going to get anywhere, not going to improve myself. And you might see a contradiction in, like, who you are now and who you want to be. And you can't resolve that because you don't. Like, you can't obey yourself and you can't obey God. And so you're just. You're just going to be obedient to what's happening now. So he would call this kind of person a philistine. Let me read you a quote. Devoid of imagination, as the philistine always is, he lives in a certain trivial province of experience as to how things go, what is possible, what usually occurs. Thus the philistine has lost his self and God. For in order to be aware of oneself and God, imagination must enable a man to soar higher than the misty precinct of the probable. It must wrench one out of this. And by making possible that which transcends the quantum satis of every experience, it must teach him to hope and fear, or to fear and hope. But imagination, the philistine does not possess. He does not want to have it. He abhors it. So here there is no help. Sounds to me like this is the place you have to end up if you do not believe in anything eternal or supernatural. Right. It's just what happens.

[Graham Donaldson]

I am so sorry. I was thinking about soccer. I. I'm having a hard time following.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's totally fine. Let me. Let me read the most important sentence.

[Thomas Magby]

Thank you.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

If I can. So the philistine lives in a certain trivial province of experience as to how things go, what is possible and what usually occurs. You lose yourself and God because you don't have imagination. You live purely in experience, and you don't want imagination. You abhor it. So here there's no help. I feel like this is the kind of despair that comes naturally. Pardon the pun, from naturalism. Right. Naturalism says the whole world is just what usually happens. And so this is where you kind of have to end up as being what he would call a philistine.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is he kind of saying, like, it's the kind of person that says, well, it's. No, it's. You know, it's never as good as you think it is. It's never as bad as you think it is. It's just kind of like what it is.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes.

[Graham Donaldson]

Doesn't have. Doesn't have an imagination of, like, what

[A.J. Hanneberg]

it could be or how to make things better or what justice should look like. It's just. Here's what's happening. What it reminds me of is in Crime and Punishment, when Raskolnikov tells himself, well, 2 to 3% always have to go this direction. When he's, you know, almost saves that girl. And there's that police officer that kind of wants to. Like, there's a guy that wants to take her away, and he sort of like, talks this police officer, and he's like, hey, that guy's being sketchy. Make sure you take care of this drunk girl. Remember that.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

At some point in that, he's like, why did I save her? Why did I actually get into this? Like, statistics tell me that a certain number of the population must go that direction.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And so that is his philistine nature.

[Graham Donaldson]

Gotcha. When it's. When he's. When he's sort of like, collapses the specific into, like a statistic or an abstraction or says that, you know.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I see what you're saying. Yeah. So I think, actually, Raskolnikov might be the greatest Example of sort of this weird tension. Right. So he wants to resolve himself into a philistine kind of where it's like, it's just what has to be done. I have to kill people, I have to take the money, I have to do the thing. This is what people are. But he can't get that. Like, he can't make himself that. And so I think. I think maybe his actual despair is being lost in possibility.

[Thomas Magby]

Right.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

He knows what he wants to be. I think he kind of tries to make it happen, but he does a bad job of it. I don't know. But those are the two elements kind of in him, Right. He wants to be this great thing, but he's also like, but this is just the way things are.

[Thomas Magby]

You kind of just made the point. But so you would take something like naturalism or just there are certain modes of thought that are kind of giving in to that despair or like promote

[A.J. Hanneberg]

that despair, specifically this kind. Yes. I think natural. I think the. This is kind of the only place you can end if you're a naturalist is like, oh, and if you like follow that to its logical conclusion is this is just the way things are. I don't have to be anything. People just are the way they are.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

They go the way they go and I'm going the way I'm going and there's no reason to stop it.

[Thomas Magby]

I think a part of what I appreciate here is that he doesn't. It's not. That's not the only type of despair, though. Like, it exists on both sides. And so both the naturalist just like kind of observing the way things are, and the spiritual author, thinker can go into the other side of despair. There are excesses on both sides that Kierkegaard is introducing. And I don't think I often think of that. That's why I'm trying to understand the infinite that like the more spiritual side of things, that type of despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Well, it's because you are a two pronged thing. You have your infinite, but you also have your temporal.

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah. And so you can swing too far either way, right?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, exactly.

[Graham Donaldson]

So which number are we on now?

[Thomas Magby]

Three.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So we have. Yeah, we're on like the types of despair and we are getting to the last little bit.

[Graham Donaldson]

But how many. The types of despair. How many types of despair are we on?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So we just did, looking at it dialectically through the things that are not consciousness. So possibility, necessity and eternal versus finite. And we're moving on to consciousness because the only two he does. And then now we Are talking about despair viewed under the aspects of consciousness.

[Thomas Magby]

Okay.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, the last section. From what I understand, there are three types. So type one as a note. Remember, the more consciousness, the more intense the despair. So the more you know you are in despair, the worse your despair is.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay.

[Thomas Magby]

Although.

[Graham Donaldson]

What if you wanted to despair, Max? Like, what. What would you. Would that mean that you.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Would you. You end up being a. An angry rebel. You despair. The worst despair, like maximum despair is despair at. I think it's wanting to be yourself.

[Graham Donaldson]

You want to be yourself. That's a despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes. I'll make it.

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's do it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So we're going to start with the least conscious of your despair. Okay, so this is the despair which is unconscious, that it is despair, or the despairing unconsciousness of having a self and an eternal self. So this person doesn't really understand that he has despair. It's somebody who, who often locates it in other things. Like we kind of discussed earlier. Like, oh, I feel. I'm feeling dread because, like, I didn't have breakfast or like, I don't. I don't have enough cash. And then they get enough cash and they're like, oh, I just, you know, it's like hot out or whatever. And they actually have this despair, but they don't want to think about it. They don't want to deal with it. They don't know that they have it. They don't. It is like a locked, quiet door in the back of their soul and they don't go near it at all.

[Graham Donaldson]

So everything else in the world is bad, but really it's their despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

It's not like everything else in the world is bad. But that angst they feel, that like deep disquietude of self is. They just put it on something else and they don't understand that it's something deeper. And they don't want to go deeper. They don't want to deal with it. They imagine they are happy and react violently against anyone who wants to tear them away from that illusion. It's like he gives an analogy of philosophers who build this big giant, like, wonderful thing in their mind. They're like, this is my philosophy. Here's how it all works out. When you actually meet the person, they live in the ground floor. They don't actually live it out. It was like Nietzsche who said that the outlaw is the vision of the Ubermensch. But Nietzsche didn't do that. Like, he didn't actually follow his philosophy through. He didn't actually do the thing he lived in the basement. And so this person is living in the basement of their soul or the mom.

[Graham Donaldson]

That's like perfect family. Perfect family.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Like, don't tell me it's not a perfect family. We're a perfect family. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. They. To be an error or delusion is the thing they fear the least. So you're like, bro, you were wrong about this. Like, meh. They just keep going. They just don't want to talk about it. Recognized by a sense of security, but there's dread at the bottom of it. So they feel fine about their life. Things are going good. They have a truck, they have kids, they like. Yeah. Stuff goes wrong and they might feel some disquietude, but they're not going there. And you don't. They don't want to talk about it. If you want to talk about the self and like, spiritual things, they don't want to. They might be wrong, but who cares? They have a truck, they've got beers, they've got their family. They're doing fine. They are, but it's actually maybe worse because they're one step further away from. From salvation. So the weird thing about this is, remember, the more consciousness, the more. The more self. So this has the least connection to their self. They don't know themselves very well, and so they are furthest from salvation, which is at the other end. But the closer you seem to get to salvation, the more despair you probably have, Right? Or at least the last two sections are getting closer to salvation, but both are going up in despair level. Remember, the more consciousness, the more despair. Okay, the next one, one more level of higher despair is you are not willing to be oneself. It is the despair of weakness. Or he calls it the despair of womanliness. And there's this huge weird aside where he talks about like, the essential thing of a woman is devotion, and the essential thing of a man is something else. I'm going to skip over that whole thing. You're welcome to read it. But he's like, essentially the woman thing is weakness. And then later the man thing, that's strength. And I'm like, ah, nice. Sure. Okay. So that's there. I'm just going to kind of pass over. So the despair of aspects of consciousness, unconscious of despair. Okay? Consciousness of being in despair as also it is a consciousness of being a self, wherein there is, after all, something eternal. So you know yourself, you realize yourself, you know you're eternal, and then you're in despair, not willing to be yourself or in despair, willing to be itself. So just as we said, more consciousness, more despair. You might still be in delusion about where. What is causing the despair. And you know, life is multifarious. But he says what happens is you realize your weakness, right? You are in despair at all of these worldly things. You're like, man, that's a really weak thing to put so much into all of these worldly things. And you might realize this, you might realize your own weakness, but you still don't really much want to do anything about it. Right? You know, that door is there in the back of your soul. You see it. You're like, I am a self. There is this sort of maybe despairing thing there. I do have this weakness. I'm aware of myself, but I'm still not going to open the door. Right? This is where he says, we get people who are introverts. So you spend a lot of time alone.

[Thomas Magby]

So it's like a. It's a weakness to be an introvert. Like, it's not a. You're denying going out into the world or something.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

I. I don't want to see him. Well, I don't want to say that all introversion is weakness, he says, but this one often ends in weakness. So it's

[Graham Donaldson]

you.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You often despair, usually over something immediate and earthly. The despair is passive. You don't really reflect on. Let's see, am I in the right section? I'm sorry? My notes. So I'm like eight levels deep on a notes thing.

[Thomas Magby]

I was hoping. You're saying you're not even reading. It's not even Kierkegaard at this point. You've switched over to a novel or something?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

No, no. Aspects of consciousness, conscious of discovery. Despair, the self not willing to be. Okay, so there are subheadings. Despair of not willing to be oneself is the despair of weakness. So you are not willing to sort of dive into this thing that you are. It's passive. You don't have reflection. But sometimes circumstances bring you into despair. Like you're not, you know, yourself, you know you're eternal, but you don't really want to think about that too much.

[Graham Donaldson]

Is this that you let people walk all over you, or is this that you let other people define you?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Or I think it's that you. You suffer despair but don't really do anything about it. And you know you are weak and you don't really want to deal with it. Deal with it, right? So you lose some earthly thing. You call it despair. You're not really wishing to be Yourself, you wish for a new self. You're like, being me sucks. I want to be somebody else. But you can't be somebody else, because what can yourself give you that isn't you? And so you are like, you sort of recognize yourself only from externals. So you want to be somebody else. You want to live a different life, but you can't really do it. Such despairs are often kind of comic. It's the commonest form of despair. Usually you label it as something to have to do with youth, but you're like, so I've grown up. I don't really have the despair anymore. And there's a really funny quote where he's like, but that doesn't really work. Usually we're just still like, we're no better than we were as kids. So you probably still have despair. So then you can also have despair over the eternal, over have oneself. So you recognize your weakness. But rather than humber, you humble yourself, you lock the door in your soul and despair, seek solitude. It's a pretty rare type of despair, this. This like, solitude one. You recognize your weakness. So you can either go to a higher form of despair, which is our next one, or you can sort of break through the facade and go into sensuality to forget. So you recognize your soul. You recognize, yeah, you drink, you porn addict, whatever, to sort of avoid the despair that you have. You recognize you're weak because of it, and that's sort of where you stay. You don't want to be yourself, so neither.

[Graham Donaldson]

Let's go to the higher form of despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Okay, so the worst form of despair, the one that is, like, closest is. Let's go. You are. It is defiance.

[Thomas Magby]

You are.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

You recognize you are an eternal soul.

[Graham Donaldson]

What are you laughing at, Magby?

[Thomas Magby]

Yeah, there it is. Defiance.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

And you want to be yourself. It is like he says, the closest thing here is called stoicism.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah, come at me.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So you want to be like, good. You want to have a good soul. You want to have, like. You want to be this thing, but you are not connected to the divine. You don't want to humble yourself. And so you are like, I want to be myself, and I want to, like, grit my teeth and I will get there. And at some point you're going to recognize a flaw that you have that you can't seem to eradicate, Right? And you might ignore it, but you're not willing to hope that you can get rid of it. And so you convince yourself that this thorn is so embedded, you can't extract it in Defiance, you of all the world, you're like, but I'm going to be myself, right? I've got this flaw, but it's me, and I'm gonna be me. And if God wants me to, like, let go of this thing, I'm not gonna do it. Screw him. I'm gonna be me. And so you eventually, like, hang on to your misery and. And say, like, I am going to do this myself. And. But myself is this broken thing, and I will be myself if, you know, come hell or high water.

[Graham Donaldson]

I mean, this is Satan's despair and paradise lost.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

This is exactly Satan's despair. This is Satan's despair. I despair. But I will be myself no matter what. And if you want me to change into something else, I'm not gonna do it. So this is instead of, like, I don't really want to be myself. I kind of suck. It's weakness. This is the one of strength. Like, I rebel. I defy God, and I will be myself. Even if that is misery, that is this last and highest form, and you are fully conscious that you are doing

[Graham Donaldson]

neither to bend nor yield.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yes, exactly. So there you go.

[Graham Donaldson]

Bummer. So how do you get out of it?

[A.J. Hanneberg]

So there's one where you don't know you're in despair. You're pretty happy. There's one where you're actually.

[Graham Donaldson]

But you're actually in despair.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But you're actually in despair. There's one that's like, okay, I'm in despair, but I'm gonna blame it on temporal things. And then there's the, like, okay, I know it's an eternal thing, but I'm gonna spend time alone and kind of not.

[Graham Donaldson]

I'm just not gonna go there. I'm just gonna try to, like, not let anything dredge it up.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, kind of that. And the funny thing is, like, it even talks about how they rarely go to church, and when they do, they don't really like all the pastors because they're all idiots. Except for one. He kind of knows what he's talking about. But the rest of it, like, that's kind of how he does it.

[Graham Donaldson]

And.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

But in public, you might be a good father, might be a good dude, whatever. And then you get this last form of despair, which is like, raging soul against the dying of the fire.

[Graham Donaldson]

Yeah.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah. All right. So that's. That's so far.

[Thomas Magby]

So we end on a bummer. Like, we've identified all the despairs, but

[A.J. Hanneberg]

this is all the types of despair we can get.

[Thomas Magby]

We have not made it to the. What to do to get ourselves in alignment.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, my big question, I don't even know if he talks about that. I mean, he talks about. We'll find out in part two. My big question is, does this, like, how does this relate to our current conception of depression? And I think we're out of time, so it has to be something we maybe discuss in our in between or maybe discuss in a future episode.

[Graham Donaldson]

But I think that's a good in between question.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

There you go.

[Thomas Magby]

Sure. All right.

[Graham Donaldson]

Well, can we give the listeners at least something happy, Some sort of like how to get out of it? Moisturize. Stay in your lane.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, stay in your lane unbothered. Go find. Go find a little hot spring to sit in like that guy.

[Thomas Magby]

It's a good way to be. I like it.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, I guess it's a cliffhanger. If you are finding yourself in one of these forms of despair. Well, we'll tell you what Kierkegaard says about it next time. But it seems to hint that the way to get out of this is humility. Right to submit and then become in right relation with the guy that established your synthesis in the first place and then find better relationship in your synthesis.

[Graham Donaldson]

All right, well, this has been classical stuff you should know with Graham Thomas and aj. We thank you for listening. You can find us, you can patronize that at Patreon. Classical stuff wherein we have in between episodes we have a. We chat, we've got comments section. You can find find episodes on our website classicalstuff.net, you can patronize our Twitter, but you know, it's Twitter. And you can email us, most importantly at theguysclassicalstuff.net wherein we usually eventually reply to you. Sometimes it takes some time. And we thank you for listening and don't despair. We'll be back next week.

[A.J. Hanneberg]

Yeah, we'll tell you what's up. Where all the titles would seem to suggest that I'm going to tell you it's a sin that seems like where we're going. So look forward to that.

[Thomas Magby]

Bye, Sam.