305: Nolan's "The Odyssey"

Summary

Classical Stuff You Should Know

Episode 305: Nolan’s "The Odyssey"

Release Date: July 28, 2026
Hosts: A.J. Hanenburg, Graeme Donaldson, Thomas Magbee

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Episode Overview

In this deep-dive episode, the trio turn their classical lens on Christopher Nolan’s much-talked-about film adaptation, “The Odyssey”—a rare foray into contemporary pop culture for the show. They explore Nolan’s interpretive choices, the fidelity (and infidelity) to Homer’s source material, casting, themes, historical detail, and how the movie’s tone and narrative both enrich and depart from the ancient tale. The hosts’ characteristic humor, literary expertise, and eye for classical nuance shape a rich discussion perfect for classicists, educators, and curious newcomers.

Spoiler Warning: The entire film is discussed in detail, including all major plot points and twists.

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Main Discussion & Key Points

First Impressions & Overall Reception

[02:22]

• The hosts unanimously enjoyed the film.
• Thomas: “It rules. Like, it’s the greatest. It was incredible.”
• Graeme: Appreciated it as an adaptation, but notes, “That wasn’t Odysseus. That is not how Odysseus is in the Odyssey.”
• A.J.: Relieved the film wasn’t mediocre; happy it “brought a spectacle” and could be shown to a class.

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Thematic Departures: Anti-War Message vs. Homeric Themes

[04:55]

• Graeme observes that the film’s central theme is anti-war—“War is bad. Our Age of Bronze is ending.”—rather than Odysseus’s journey from cunning adventurer to responsible king.
• The film uses the breaking of the hospitality code (particularly the Trojan Horse ruse) as a catalyst for the “end of an age,” diverging from how the event is treated in the Iliad and Odyssey.
  • Graeme: “That war never changes Fallout games intro just kept coming to mind.”
  • A.J.: “The Trojan horse would not have been a breach of the hospitality code. That’s entirely modern.”

Odysseus as a Character: Book vs. Film

[08:13], [16:13], [62:20]

• Graeme emphasizes Odysseus’s joy in cleverness and his internal conflict between adventure and responsibility in Homer—largely replaced in the film by brooding, war-weariness, and guilt.
• The film’s Odysseus is a trauma-haunted, grizzled veteran à la Matt Damon’s persona, not the sly, sometimes irresponsible hero of the poem.
  • Graeme: “In my mind Odysseus is twinkle in his eye…a little MacGyver.”
  • Thomas: “I’m unsympathetic to Odysseus in the book…he keeps making horrible decisions.”
• The hosts note the ending as a significant departure: instead of restoring order and staying home, Odysseus abdicates and sails into exile with Penelope, echoing Tennyson’s romanticized “Ulysses.”
  • Graeme: “[He] gets to continue to be the playboy, but now he just gets this smoking hot wife to be with him on his boat. It just reminded me of…wealthy retirement where you get to abandon your responsibility.” [21:06]
  • Thomas: “In the film…he is paying for [killing the suitors] by leaving on the boat, so it’s not just like, ‘peace out, I’m in retirement’.” [24:59]

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Fidelity to Homer: What the Film Gets Right

[65:11], [69:18]

• A.J. launches a “list of details they got right,” praising the filmmakers for including many small but accurate elements:
  • The betrayal by the suitor Eurymachus.
  • Penelope’s weaving and unweaving of the shroud.
  • Antinous throwing a stool at Odysseus.
  • Euryclaea recognizing Odysseus by his boar scar.
  • The loyalty of Eumaeus, the swineherd, and Argos the dog.
  • The hospitality code (xenia) as a narrative backbone.
  • The bow stringing contest and disposal of the suitors.
  • Faithful inclusion of the Laestrygonians, Circe, Sirens, and Scylla/Charybdis sequences.
  • Making the Gods mostly unseen, present in atmosphere, signs, and ambiguous “visions.”
• A.J.: “Whoever they had kind of helping to guide them knew the book and knew it thoroughly. There were not… overall general gist. They had little tiny details.” [27:26]

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Dealing with the Gods: Ambiguity & Interpretation

[30:20], [32:35], [37:40]

• The film presents gods mostly through natural elements (thunder for Zeus) and ambiguous visions (Was that Athena or guilt/trauma?).
  • Thomas: “Portrayal of Zeus I thought was incredible. Whenever the thunder is present, you’re like, Zeus has blessed this. Let’s go.”
  • Graeme: “You get the sense that it’s just trauma from killing the priestess, haunting Odysseus in the guise of Athena.”
• The hosts agree explicit, literal gods would have been “cheesy.”
• The suitors’ slaughter is explicitly sanctioned by Zeus, as in the original: “Thunder starts rolling in in the background and you’re like, Zeus has blessed this. Let’s go.” [30:50]

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Character and Casting Notes

[25:41], [33:43], [44:49]

• Tom Holland as Telemachus: Hosts feel he might be a bit too old, but captures the arc from “crying kid” to “man who owns this house.”
  • B: “Thought the treatment of Telemachus was almost spot on.”
• Anne Hathaway as Penelope: Praised for sincerity and emotion, especially in expressing her desire for Odysseus’s return.
• Robert Pattinson as Antinous: A highlight; “the camera loved him…just eating it up, the whole thing.”
• Jon Bernthal as Menelaus: Cast against ancient type as a hardened, world-weary vet—hosts find it “kind of ridiculous” but entertaining.
• Agamemnon: As “Aura Memnon,” played up as larger-than-life, with a comic touch.
• Circe, the Sirens, and Polyphemus all get detailed discussion—the team compliments Nolan’s non-silly, genuinely creepy depictions.

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Major Story Adaptations & Their Effects

[11:53], [21:06], [52:08]

• The film reframes the Trojan Horse as a breach of hospitality leading to divine (and historical) punishment—entirely modern, not in the ancient texts.
• Odysseus’s exile after killing the suitors happens with Penelope joining him, with Telemachus taking the throne—an invention for the film mirroring post-Odyssey traditions and Tennyson’s poem.
• Host consensus: While not strictly “wrong,” these choices miss the opportunity for “restoration of order and responsibility,” a major Homeric theme.

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Notable & Memorable Moments

Great Quotes & Timestamps

• Graeme on the ending:
  “All I could think about is…wealthy retirement where you get to abandon your responsibility.” ([21:06])
• A.J. on scene accuracy:
  “Argos, the dog dying on a pile of poop…absolutely accurate.” ([46:02])
• Thomas on Nolan’s tone:
  “It’s the story of a man who wants to get home…but also someone who couldn’t stay at home. He’s made for the next journey.” ([62:51])
• Graeme on Circe:
  “I got so many chills that whole time…I thought they either can’t show it or it’ll be dumb. What they did was just amazing.” ([50:36])
• B (A.J.) on gods:
  “What they portrayed was how Odysseus would have experienced it…He only figured out that Poseidon was against him when he hit the underworld.” ([31:27])
• [Comic aside] on accents:
  “It is a little jarring to have Matt Damon be like, ‘Let’s get off this beach.’” ([77:38])

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Deeper Analysis: What the Movie Adds & Misses

The Missed “Coming Home” Message

[21:07], [54:04], [55:35]

• Graeme calls out the film for not embracing the book’s “manhood through responsibility” theme.
• Seen as a loss for a modern audience, missing the “restoration of city, home, and marriage bed.”
• A.J. offers measured defense: even if Odysseus leaves, he “does bring order back to Ithaca” before abdicating.

The Hospitality Code (Xenia) as a Structural Device

[41:55], [69:02]

• The living, breaking, and enforcing of hospitality forms the backbone for most conflicts, and the hosts praise Nolan for foregrounding it, even if embellished for dramatic effect.

Modern Sensibilities vs. Classical Values

[13:39], [72:28], [75:16]

• War trauma, guilt, abdication vs. acceptance of fate, duty, and patriarchy.
  • A.J.: “Penelope…doesn’t want to rule, she just wants order restored and her husband home.”
• On Helen: The film makes her appear more tragic and abused; the hosts highlight the ancient nuance—her lack of agency, the burden of blame, and the gods’ roles.

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Fun & Fascinating Tidbits

• Many practical effects, but some seamless CGI (e.g., Scylla & Charybdis) ([46:40])
• Dog actor for Argos used animatronic tail for “realistic” effect.
• Literary and mythic allusions: hosts trace connections to Tennyson’s "Ulysses”, and the missing parts of the epic cycle.
• Telemachus, in the wider myth, later marries Circe—a wild fact new to the hosts ([68:25]).

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Segment Timestamps & Highlights

• [02:13] – Introduction and set-up for the discussion
• [04:55] – On the film’s anti-war theme and its divergence from Homer
• [06:37] – Comparing the Polyphemus episode in book and movie
• [16:44] – Discussion of Odysseus’s internal motives
• [21:06] – Critique of film’s handling of Odysseus’s return and ending
• [30:20] – Portrayal of the gods and Zeus’s presence in the film
• [33:43] – Comic critique of Menelaus and Helen scene
• [44:49] – Robert Pattinson’s Antinous praised
• [46:02] – Argos the dog’s emotionally accurate, if animatronic, death
• [54:04] – The film’s underworld and missed opportunity with Achilles
• [65:11] – Praises for accurate Homeric details included
• [69:18] – The hospitality code’s importance and execution
• [77:38] – Realism vs. accuracy in casting and dialogue

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Final Thoughts & Endorsement

• All three hosts recommend seeing “Nolan’s Odyssey,” especially for classics fans interested in adaptation and myth.
• The film is commended for its depth of classical detail, innovative tone, and solid performances, even as it takes interpretive liberties.
  • Graeme: “It didn’t have the tenor of the original, but I loved it.”
  • A.J.: “If you’re out there wondering if Nolan did a good job—he did a great job.” [70:41]
  • Thomas: “Strong recommend, even if you’re a classics stickler.”

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Listen-Alike:

If you’re curious about the classical world, story analysis, or the intersection of myth and modernity, this episode exemplifies the thoughtful, witty, and rigorous discussions characteristic of Classical Stuff You Should Know.

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For further reading, past episodes, or to get in touch:

• classicalstuff.net
• Twitter: @CLSSCALStuff
• Patreon: patreon.com/classicalstuff

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, everybody. What you're about to hear is Classical Stuff's take on new Christopher Nolan the Odyssey. What we forgot to do before we jumped right into it was say, this is an incredibly spoilery episode. So if you have not gone to see Christopher Nolan's new epic, the Odyssey, we are going to talk about all of it, spoilers and all. So if you have not yet read a 3,000 year old book. No, no, just joking. If you haven't gone and seen the Odyssey and you don't want it spoiled, don't listen. If you're cool with spoilers, already have seen it. Welcome aboard our journey to islands of mystery. Great.

[B]

And if you are new to the podcast and you're wondering how to get to all of our old episodes, our hosting platform only allows about 300 episodes. So now that we're past 300, we're losing some of our earlier episodes. But. But that's only in the RSS feed. If you want the episodes, you can go find them on our website [e-mail] or you can subscribe on Patreon, where we still have all of our old stuff posted. Or if your episode happens to be on our YouTube channel, we also have them there. Not all of our episodes are there, but many of the old ones are. So you can go and check them out. They still exist. We haven't lost them. We're not hiding them from you. You just have to do a little extra work to get there.

[C]

I don't have any announcements. I'm just happy to be here. Cool. Great. Bye.

[B]

Bye. Hey, everybody. And welcome to Classical Stuff. You should know. Was I?

[C]

You're introing your own episode. Aren't you, like, leading this episode?

[B]

Yeah, but no one's actually, like, fine, that's fine.

[C]

You can do it.

[A]

This display of hubris.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, wait, that's good.

[A]

Try again.

[B]

Let me bring it home. Bring it home.

[C]

I said no, I understood.

[B]

It just wasn't so classical stuff. You should know this is a podcast about old literature, old books, classical things. My name is AJ Hannenberg. I'm joined by Thomas Magbee.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

And Graham Donaldson.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

And today we are taking a journey. We're talking about the new film the Odyssey, which is a departure from what we usually do. We usually don't talk about pop culture things, but this is pop culture getting into our business.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. They're treading on our toes over here.

[A]

AJ's gonna steer us through safe waters.

[B]

Oh, my word. Okay, so.

[A]

So we're talking About Nolan's.

[B]

We're talking about Nolan's Odyssey, which I was. Which we all saw. Yeah. I was really worried about it, and I either wanted it to be amazing or terrible and just not mediocre was all I was hoping for. Right. A mediocre film doesn't do the Odyssey justice, but if it's hilarious and terrible, I can show that to my class. If it's really good, I can maybe show it to my class. It's just. It's nice to. You know, it'd be nice if the epics were.

[A]

Where did you land?

[B]

Solid?

[A]

Was it amazing?

[B]

I want to hear Thomas's take for. So Graham and I watched it together, and so I know his opinion, sort of. Thomas, I would love to hear how you felt about the film.

[A]

Just your first opinion.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you like it or not?

[C]

I mean, I'm glad it came with popcorn. That was probably the best part of. No, it rules. Like, it's the greatest. It was incredible.

[B]

Yeah. You liked it?

[C]

Yeah, of course. I don't. I actually don't know how you all felt about it, but it is its own adaptation of the story, which I think is fine and great. I think it's like the greatest actors of our generation putting their effort behind the most important story ever told. So, yeah, like, what's not to like? It's a spectacle. It's an Olin movie where I could understand the dialogue. All kinds of.

[B]

Except amo dis.

[A]

Yes. Except for Polyphemus.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But understand him.

[C]

But, yeah, it was great. And so I'm. I'm probably. I will be more curious, aj for how much you care about or if it matters, any of the differences from the story, but, no, it's great.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get to the difference in the story. So we'll first do sort of, like, what we liked and like about the film, our thoughts on casting and other things, and. And then we'll sort of jump into how it. How it compares to the actual Odyssey. For those of you who aren't as familiar with the story, Donaldson, how do

[A]

you feel about it? I really. I really, really liked it. I never go into Hollywood adaptations of classical works ever thinking that they are going to, like, display the themes of those works. They're gonna. They're gonna have some sort of. Sort of, like, modern themes. Same. It was the same thing with Sir Go Away and the Green Knight. And so this definitely was an Odyssey that was wanting, that had its own. Like, it used the trappings of the story, but it was not. That wasn't Odysseus. That wasn't. That is not how Odysseus is in the Odyssey, which we can, I guess, talk about a little bit later. Yeah, but I mean, I really enjoyed it for what it was. It felt like we're going to take the beats of the Odyssey story, but we're not going to talk about the, the Odyssey themes. Like the central. Yeah, because it was like basically an anti war movie.

[C]

And.

[A]

And the big central theme was as I was watching the whole thing, I kept thinking of like the cheesy intro to Fallout Games. War, War never changes. Right. Like it was. It just felt like it was a movie about. Yeah, it was an anti war movie or a movie about our bronze. Our Age of Bronze is ending. Oh, my word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to a movie about, sorry,

[B]

there's a mosquito in here and I'm trying to blow it away from me. So if that hits microphone.

[A]

A movie about grown man who is like, avoiding the responsibilities of his life. Like, that is what the Odyssey is about in my reading of it. It's not a movie about, like people being like, oh, man, plunder is bad.

[B]

Well, yeah, it's a coming of age story where.

[A]

But he's old.

[B]

Both him. Well, yeah, him and his son both sort of come into their responsibilities at the same time.

[A]

I loved the Cyclops. Is it Polyphemus? I love Polyphemus. Even though that as soon as that scene was done, I realized they aren't going to treat Odysseus the way that they treated him in the book. Because the, because of the, like, why Odysseus shoots Polyphemus in the movie versus why Odysseus gets his men killed in the book is kind of like a key difference.

[B]

Well, do you, do you think it's that different?

[A]

Well, in the book, Odysseus really wants. Well, okay, I guess we can, we can get into that. So in the book, Odysseus has the whole, like, battle of wits with Polyphemus where Paul Polyphemus is like, what's your name? He's like, my name is Nobody. My dad calls me Nobody. My sister, all my friends, all my friends call me Nobody. Apollo films like, okay, there's more Cyclopsai in the island, right?

[B]

Yeah, Cyclops, Cyclops.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And then when they burned his eye and they escape from the cave, as they're going back to the boat, Odysseus just can't help in the book. Just can't help himself to turn around to be like, I'm Friggin. Smart. I'm smarter than you. I'm. And then he like, doesn't he say, my name is actually Odysseus, you dink.

[B]

And tells him where. He's like, I'm Odysseus from Ithaca. Yeah, here's my home address.

[C]

And then.

[A]

And then he's like, I just wanted you to know before I left that I got one over on you because of my. How clever I am. And Polyphemus is like, you know, eats a rock at him.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

In the movie, Grizzled war veteran Odysseus leaves from the cave, and Polyphemus, like, belches out a suit of armor or something, and Odysseus is like, my man and shoots him with an arrow.

[B]

Really? I thought it was more of a, like a dunkin on him. Like, f you, like, shoots him. Because he didn't have to. They could have just run away. And even his men, like, this is something they did get close to the book. The men were like, dude, stop it. Quit shooting arrows at his face. He didn't know where we were. And then he throws the rock. Like, even. Even that was.

[A]

I thought it was because he, like, spat out the armor. And Odysseus is like, vengeance is mine. Is that your. Was that you read it?

[B]

That wasn't my reading. I thought it was just one more, like, gotcha.

[C]

Yeah, he was, like, goaded into it by the Cyclops. But Graham, you're saying, like, it was too noble. Like, it was too good a reason in the movie.

[A]

I'm just saying that in the. The. The whole shtick. Not shtick. Like, the main theme of Odysseus is that he is. He's like, into the war.

[C]

He.

[A]

He's not the main hero, but he loves being the smartest guy in the room. Basically, Odysseus is too clever. He's too clever by half. And the Odyssey is him being slowly ground down by the gods, where he realizes I have either need to, like, abandon my responsibilities and be playboy Odysseus with my boat and my boys and my adventures, or I need to be, like, responsible Odysseus and go home and take care of business and, like, be married to my wife and raise my son and put my boating days behind us, which is why I love the movie. I really disliked the ending where they went with the. They went with the Alfred Lord Tennyson ending. But we can talk about that later, because that's the book. The book is Odysseus growing up, or the. The book is Odysseus being like, a grown man realizing he needs to be a man. The movie was like the trauma of war and feeling guilty about being.

[B]

Being the guy that broke the hospitality code. Which is weird.

[A]

Which is. Yeah. They sort of set up the horse as being a break of a hospitality code, which triggers, like, an apocalyptic event that ends the Age of Bronze.

[B]

Because they knew they were in the Bronze Age.

[A]

They. Of course they did.

[B]

Of course they did.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just like what Henry VIII does, all the monarchies. Someone wrote, our middle age is now over.

[B]

Did they really?

[C]

No, of course. So is it that that reading. That reading is not in Iliad is like, the Trojan horse is like breaking something.

[B]

No, that's entirely modern.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Odysseus was incredibly proud of the Trojan horse, and I think it should have been. It was a military subterfuge, which is totally fine to do. It was not. There was no hospitality there. They were not, like, come on in. Odysseus under, like, as a guest. Nope. It was fully false. Planned to be false. Sinon, the guy who got shot in the movie, knew what was happening. He knew it was all ruse and sold the lie to the Trojans to get them inside. And then they got inside and, like, ended the war. And so that was a triumphant moment for Odysseus. He would not and never did, as far as I know, regret it.

[C]

Is there anything? Isn't the Iliad have some kind of, like, questioning whether this is a good war or not? Like, it's not fully rah rah. Trojan war rules.

[B]

Oh, no. The war is terrible, and everyone knows the war is terrible, but the Trojan horse would not have been a breach of the hospitality code.

[C]

I guess the part I appreciated is that, sure, the Trojan horse part of it, but, like, they are portraying in a Trojan war that's, like, again, grinding these men, right? 12 years on a beach for, like, nothing or 12 years for the pride of their king or whatever. And so I think that's not absent from the text of the Iliad, and I think I appreciated that. That, yes, it's a particular reading and take on the war, but it's not totally divorced from the text.

[B]

Oh, not at all. Most of the stuff I think they got right, it was on the beach. It was terrible. Most of them didn't want to be there. A lot of it was about Agamemnon and his pride. And he really did want to get, like, the trade routes to Asia and.

[A]

Oh, man. Aggie Magnon in the movie was pretty awesome.

[C]

He was.

[B]

Until he talked until, yeah, I got home and my wife just sort of killed me. I can't believe it happened. I got curly hair.

[A]

He should. Agamemnon probably shouldn't have talked the whole movie. That would have been great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I saw someone refer to him as Aura Memnon.

[C]

And I was like, yes. Yeah, that was my thought of. Because they. The gods are not really present. I don't know. They kind of are. Is that Athena who shows up through?

[A]

Well, that's a great question. Okay, so you think it's Athena the whole movie, and she keeps showing up and was like, what's up, Odysseus? And he's sitting there talking to her. But then when. When he's having his big we're terrible people for sacking Troy moment, when he's talking to his wife at the end, he's remembering Troy and he's remembering the sacking of the temple of. Of Athena and the oracle of the temple. And the oracle, or the. The one of the priestesses of the temple is. Is. What's her name?

[B]

Zendaya.

[A]

Yeah, it was that actress. And so you get the sense that it's like, oh, he's just traumatized from killing the priestess, that now she is haunting him in the guise of Athena. So it's not actually Athena. It's like this. This killed this slain priestess. Or if you. The other interpretation is the whole movie, they were saying, since the movie is all about, like, they broke the hospitality code by winning the war, you never. I think one of the phrases is the hospitality code exists because you never know if you're entertaining a God. And when they sacked the temple, they actually, like, were trying to kill actual Athena. And that's when he realized, like, oh, dang.

[B]

They, like, cut off the head of one of the statues.

[A]

They got off of the head of one of the statues. We're being bad. Yeah, we're. It's. It's basically like, you know that meme of like, hey, are we the baddies?

[B]

Yeah, it's basically like Odysseus was kind of accurate. They really did go overboard and, like, messed up some temples they shouldn't have done. And they did some really terrible things on the way out, and that's why most of the people died and got scattered on the way back, is because they did some stuff they really shouldn't have done. Once they got into Troy, they. They trampled on some things that were sacred.

[A]

So. So here's my beef. Maybe not my beef, but here's what I feel is the biggest missed Opportunity for talk. Talking about doing this story thematically. Is that what they did was a moral lesson or a thematic treatment that we've seen a thousand times in war movies?

[B]

Yeah, like war.

[A]

Bad people go into war, they start doing things, they realize it's really bad, and they come home and they don't really know what to do with the badness of what they've done. I'm not saying that's not true. That is definitely true. But that is a treatment that is. And Odysseus is in the movie. Matt Damon is very much like that kind of grizzled war veteran.

[B]

The.

[A]

The kind of here antihero that we've talked about a lot in this podcast, the. The Saturnalien. If we want to go back a couple of episodes, you know, kind of like, oh, I've second guessed everything. Our society is built on everything, you know, sort of contemplative and brooding. He's brooding. Odysseus is not brooding. But. But this. Odysseus was a little bit brooding, and he comes back as a thematic treatment. I think that's fine. That's not the Odyssey's thematic treatment. This was a huge missed opportunity to do a movie about a grown man who has abdicated his responsibilities to his home, his family, his people, his subjects, because he wants to live his own life. And he. And then realizing that he needs to go and actually, like, assume the responsibility. Like, that would have been such a different. A breath of fresh air thematically in a Hollywood movie to have, like, an older man be like, you know what? I actually need to, like, care about the next generation and pay back and. And, like, shelve my own personal pleasures and take up the mantle of responsibility and be the true king. But in the. But in this movie, it was not that. It was like, war is really bad. So me and my wife are gonna, like, go on and, like, get our RV and drive around the country, you know, like. And my son can.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I just found that to be so.

[C]

But in the film, isn't he doing that because he's basically taking. He's broke. He breaks the hospitality code again. By killing people in the movie's interpretation in his house. By killing the people in his house. And so to, like, take the consequence of that. He is exiled.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. He sort of realizes, like, since I killed dudes in my house, I am. The gods are mad at me and I need to go west to, like, sort of make amends for all the people that have. That have Died under my command. Telemachus, you're in charge.

[B]

Okay. So in the defense of the film, I don't think any of those readings are absolutely terrible. First, I think there is an element of I was at the war, and I don't know what I'm gonna find when I get home. So I'm going to take more time than I need to.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

When he's in the Underworld, do you

[A]

get the sense that that's what Matt Damon was doing? He was like, in the Odyssey, you get the sense that Odysseus is really dragging his feet. Yes, but in this movie, it was like he's, like, clutching the statue of his wife. He's like, I need to get home. I need to get home for sure.

[C]

But they have the stuff of, like, right after they leave Troy, Odysseus is choosing the scenic route to get home.

[A]

Well, he's just so, like, fed up with Agamemnon.

[B]

It's like, screw that.

[C]

I took it as. But he says, like, we're going to have adventures on the way. Like, I think we still get the arrogant man who. He's not ready to settle down.

[A]

Yeah, he just didn't lean into it.

[B]

But in any case, I think there is, in the real Odyssey, an element of fear about what is going on at home. He told his wife to remarry. He doesn't know what's going on. His son might hate him. He doesn't know if there's a new king waiting for him to kill him. Like, I can understand why he would want to take some extra time. I don't think it was just, I want glory. I think that was a big piece of it. But I think it was also the like and his wild desires to go and get more fame. And that sort of like, that's absolutely a thread in the normal Odyssey. But I think so, too, is a. I'm not really sure what I'm gonna find when I get home, and I don't know that I want to go back there. And then as far as him being exiled, they just sort of changed the ending. He did eventually have to leave and, like, plant an ore and, like, make sacrifices. Like, that's a real thing. That was prophesied by Tyrese. Prophesied by Tiresias. On top of that, killing all those suitors in this house. I don't think it was just the gods are mad. It's. Their families are mad. And in the book, they deal with that. Like, he fights the families of the suitors, and then here they just have him be exiled and Telemachus take over instead. Which I don't think it's that terrible. I don't think it's that big of a change. The whole, like, we gotta go drive around in the rv. It's just.

[C]

We broke.

[B]

You know, we killed a whole bunch of people. And if this place is gonna be pulled together, I gotta go.

[C]

So the original, isn't it? He has to travel inland until they don't recognize an ore. Right.

[B]

Or they say they call the. Yeah, they call it a fan to winnow grain. And then he plants it in the earth and sacrifices, I think, to pet Poseidon.

[C]

And then. Is that in the Odyssey or is that like, post Odyssey?

[B]

It's prophesied in the Odyssey, but it doesn't happen in the Odyssey. The Odyssey ends after the fight with the suitor's parents.

[C]

Is there a treatment of that part? The. Like, Odysseus traveling and making amends?

[B]

I don't know. It's very possible that it could be part of the lost epic cycle. So the epic cycle is supposed to be seven books. We only have two.

[A]

Yeah, because they're supposed to be. Yeah, the whole.

[C]

Are the other five all or five?

[A]

Five.

[B]

Five books.

[A]

The other five. No, it's like the pre. Troy and the Kate Tech capture of Helen and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

All Homer or is this, like, other people that I don't know. Okay.

[A]

So the reason I didn't like that ending where. Sorry, it's eight books where him and Penelope go off sailing at the end, and Telemachus is in his little, like, baby king suit.

[C]

Yeah. He's becoming a man. He's finally king.

[A]

But the thing is, it's like in the Odyssey. The big final symbol of Odysseus coming home is him, like, getting back in his bed. And his bed is, like, built into a tree whose roots go down into the. Into the foundation of Ithaca. And you get this idea that with Odysseus home, him and Penelope as husband and wife can, like, bring order to a disordered home.

[B]

And the marriage is the center of

[A]

marriage is the center of this order. And they started to treat that a little bit with. I really like the Anne Hathaway's portrait portrayal of Penelope. I thought she did a great job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I loved the scene where she. Where Telemachus is like, what do you want, Mom? And she just sort of basically screams out, I want Odysseus.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Because that is exactly what Penelope wants. She's like, I don't care about it. She's Like I just want everything to be back to normal. And I wanted, I want someone, I want, I need someone to come home. I need Odysseus to be here. I need him to take responsibility. I need to like, like our home is in disorder and Odysseus brings. Can help. Needs to help me. We together can bring order. That is in the Odyssey, the book. And that is symbolized by the fact that Odysseus gets his leg, his bed back in the movie. It's sort of like Odysseus is, you know, in the trenches, taking off his helmet and looking at a picture of Penelope and his helmet. That doesn't happen in the movie. I'm just being funny and he's like, I just need to get home to my girl. And then he, when he gets home, he's not going to assume responsibility, he's not going to rule. He's not going to bring order back to Ithaca. He is going to.

[B]

He doesn't bring order back because Telemachus takes over.

[A]

But the thing is, but again, it's like everyone was talking about how this place needs this king and Odysseus is, it just gives off the impression that Odysseus is home for like 15 minutes and he's like, you know what? The sea is my home. And like sail and so well, they

[B]

are the sea people.

[A]

Oh gosh. So this is the ending of the Odyssey that or this is the reading of Odysseus that Tennyson has. Tennyson in his poem Ulysses. Ulysses, yeah.

[B]

Tell me about that.

[A]

So that poem is. It's about like Odysseus or Ulysses as an older man in Ithaca, being like, man, this friggin sucks. I long for the sea. I want to go back on adventures. And then he decides to go off on adventures and leaves. And Telemachus is kind of disparaged in the poem as being like, you know, the, the symbol of man that just wants to be like responsible and like do their, do their like domestic responsibilities. Bah. But no wild oats. Odysseus is the real man who sort of like has this romantic casting off of responsibilities and sails off into the adventure. And, and so this is why I thought that this was such a missed opportunity because much as is there, there's much ink is spilled over like the selfishness of maybe the older generation. Like you could have, you could have treated this as alike. We have, we live in a society where a lot of men have abdicated their responsibilities to family, either left their wives or live or are still in the family, but are like, emotionally withdrawn from their families, are kind of like, not assuming responsibility in their communities or their institutions or their churches or in the lives of their children. Or they are delaying, you know, growing up. Or everyone is just, you know, they're still wanting to play superheroes, they're still wanting to play video games. They're still wanting to be. Do all of the sort of the trappings that you associate with youth. And you had this opportunity to tell the story of somebody that just wants to go off and have a blast at war with his boys and then realizes. And then in the meantime, everything at home is. Is like going to hell. He comes home and he turns that hell back into a functioning kingdom, but they don't have that. They have Odysseus at the end getting to continue to be the playboy, but now he just gets this, like, smoking hot wife to be with him on his boat. It's just as I was watching it, all I could think about is just, like. It just reminded me of, like, I don't know, wealthy. Is it like the dream of wealthy retirement where you get to abandon your responsibility?

[B]

Okay, I think that's partially true, but I do think we have to give the movie credit that he does bring order back to Ithaca.

[A]

Do you even. I mean, I guess you see a little bit of it.

[B]

You don't see the order after it happens, but they're in a terrible state. And even Eumaeus the swineherd wants everybody to come back. Like, everyone is groaning for Odysseus return. And return he does, and bring order back and rescue his wife and set his son up in his proper place.

[A]

He doesn't stay for very long because he's still hurt when he's on the boat. He's still got, like, his, like, neck bandage. So he was, like, for like, a week.

[B]

Totally fair. But he does bring order back. I think it's unfair to, like, levy that high of a criticism at the film. Yes, he does get to abandon his responsibilities at the end, but, I mean, if we're fair to the actual Odyssey, he was going to do that anyway.

[A]

He does leave in, like, Odysseus leaves in.

[B]

I mean, near the end of his life.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But not with Penelope.

[B]

But not with Penny.

[A]

But not with Penelope. And not, like, if it was like they were wheeling old man Odysseus onto the boat, I would have been fine with that. But it's like Odysseus was literally home for like, a week and a half. He's still kind of hurt he's like, oh, my neck wounds. And he's on the boat. Penelope's like, let's get out of this stupid place. Telemachus is like, all right, cool. All right, bye.

[C]

But thanks for coming home again. The reason in the. In the film, the reason they're doing it is to, like, take the. The punishment that should be on Ithaca for killing the suitors. He is paying for that by leaving on the boat. And so it's not just like, peace out. I'm in retirement. It's. I'm allowing Telemachus and Ithaca to prosper without me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, instead of being. They don't portray exile as the horrible thing it is. Yeah. They're probably gonna die. Yeah. Right. Like, if you are out of the city, you have nothing.

[B]

Oh, there's highwaymen. They'll. They'll get robbed.

[C]

Yeah. It's like. And they don't show that part. So I hear you on that.

[A]

Oh, it's very much because it's like they're. They're. Well, there was that whole line where even earlier in the movie, Penelope's like, you know what I want? I just want to, like, sail into the sunset and leave all our responsibilities behind. And you kind of have this, like. Yeah, that is the pinnacle of life. That rubs me the wrong way.

[B]

And that's fair. I think that's a fair criticism. But also, installing Telemachus as head of the kingdom, like that, that's a good thing. And I think the Greeks would have said that's appropriate. Right. For Odysseus to rule, but for Telemachus to step up.

[A]

What do you think of Telemachus, how he's portrayed in the movie?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the actor, is he like Tom

[C]

Holland, way more tough in the book?

[B]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I think I feel like he's too old.

[B]

Movie. No, in the movie, he should have been about between, like, 17 and 20 something.

[C]

Yeah. How old?

[A]

Tom Holland? I know. He just looked older. The thing is, Tom Holland's like one of those guys where it's like, he could be 35, and he looks younger,

[B]

but he looks 20.

[A]

But he still has the, like. I don't know.

[B]

Okay. I think he had a hard job, and I thought he did a fair. Decent. Because he starts out in the book as this crying, weaseling, daydreaming, sniffy kid that isn't doing anything. And that's kind of how he starts. He's sort of sitting there daydreaming about his dad, and he's like, I don't know my dad. And just Whining to everybody. And then the person comes and inspires him, like, hey, you gotta go and you gotta sail. Right? So that's. That's what happens.

[A]

Is it Mentor. Is it actually Mentor who does that in the book? Mentees.

[B]

Mentees comes up. It's actually Athena in disguise, which, if you are watching every time, it was Athena in disguise in the books. He mentions something about them having Athena's eyes in the movie.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

That's why they kept doing that. Because when he was like. He's like, you never know when it's a God in disguise. You have Athena's eyes in the beginning. It was cool. And then when he goes with Mentor to sail, he's like, man, you're like, mentor, you're pretty great. Did you. You know, I never told you you have Athena's eyes. And every time I was just like, okay. So I don't know who they had.

[A]

Even though Mentor is like a Norse Viking. Yeah.

[B]

And I think dies later in the fighting.

[A]

Yeah. Dies in the temple of Athena.

[B]

Yeah. Which is really weird. And Athena had a few other cards to play. I thought they did that part recognizing the gods. And, like, they did so much.

[A]

Okay. There was a little bit.

[B]

So like, a little extra nudge towards that. I. Yeah. I don't know what consultant they had, but whoever they had kind of helping to guide them knew the book and knew it thoroughly. There were not. It wasn't just, like, overall general gist. They had little tiny details all over the place that were accurate to the book. And the changes that they did, I'm kind of okay with. And I know that they changed the theme from embrace your responsibilities to happy retirement, sailing around the world.

[A]

Because you talk about, like, the central metaphor of the book is the wild and cultivated olive branch. Yeah, yeah. And that was not there at all.

[B]

It's just the two sides of Odysseus. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there are some pieces missing for sure. But I thought that they were able to bring in so much of the ancient theme, the ancient book, the ancient details of. While not going silly. And I think this movie could have easily gone very silly.

[A]

It almost went silly when, like, the giant iron dudes showed up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was also like,

[C]

isn't most of the movie the Greeks running away from something?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like, it happens like three or four times where they get in the island.

[A]

There's like an of moment and they

[C]

all have to run back to the boat.

[B]

That's what happens.

[A]

That's what happens in the book.

[B]

That's what Happens in the book. Okay, so do we want to talk about some of the stuff okay you want to know about?

[A]

Let's just finish Telemachus.

[B]

Telemachus. So sometimes I think Tom Holland's deliveries are a little flat. But he had a really hard job in that. He had to go from sniveling kid to, I am the guy that owns this house. And he did it. Over the course of the film, he went. He learned. He talked to some people. They inspired him. It was exactly what happens in the book, except he sails around the suitors instead of actually getting ambushed in a temple.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I thought, you know what? A little action. Yeah, a little action. Yeah. Fine. Great. Links up with them. And then the whole Odysseus and him sort of having a reunion and then him realizing later that it's his dad. Like, that kind of happens.

[A]

There could have been more with, like, if he had been a little more on Mom's, like, skirt tails. And then if you had kind of this moment where he was like, you know what, Mom? You gotta have to shove it. I'm gonna go do what I want.

[B]

He does.

[A]

They do that.

[C]

But they did it.

[B]

He said, mom, I'm in control. Like, I have this. Which is directly from the book.

[A]

It was good.

[B]

I thought the treatment of Telemachus was almost spot on to what it should have been.

[C]

And Penelope was that, like.

[B]

Except for the whole, like, women should rule and our Age of Bronze is ending, it was pretty accurate.

[C]

Okay. Because I was just wondering, because I feel like they try and give Penelope, like, it's a negative portrayal, that she wants the control or wants to be in the throne.

[B]

Yeah, that wasn't in the books, but she did the whole weaving and unweaving and then the really hungry for news and anyone that comes by is definitely a thing. Her, you know, kind of stringing the suitors on but not wanting to choose, like, all of it. Almost all of it, except the I want to rule and I'm not allowed to was directly from the books.

[C]

Can I ask one more? The portrayal of the gods. Did y' all have thoughts? Because I think I was nervous going in because I feel like there was a lot of talk about how the gods other than Athena are not present, but I think they're there. And, like, the portrayal of Zeus I thought was incredible.

[B]

I thought they got like. I don't think they could have done it better.

[A]

What was the portrayal of Zeus?

[C]

Just, like, whenever the thunder is present, like, they set up that the way the gods are speaking or through these, like the elements or nature or just like, you know, when you hear thunder, how could you be clearer? Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And then as. I mean, the scene of the suitor is about to get just destroyed and the thunder starts rolling in in the background and you're like, Zeus has blessed this. Like, let's go. Like, yeah, I think it worked.

[B]

And they had the cattle of the sun God, which was definitely a thing they had. I mean, the dead rose up. They didn't get chased in the book. That's kind of a silly thing.

[A]

I loved the scene except for the chase at. Of the. Wait, let's talk about. We can talk about hell in a sec.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yes, it would have been cheesy if, like, for every God, you would, like, cast somebody and they stopped by. Yeah. Like, you'd like Christopher walking as Zeus. He's standing there giving you a thumbs up. Because I think they.

[B]

What they portrayed was how Odysseus probably would have experienced it. Like, he didn't talk to any of the gods. He didn't know that. Like, he only figured out that Poseidon was against him when he hit the underworld. They had the prayer from the Cyclops. They. Athena stopped by a bunch of times and we don't really know if it was his flashbacks or not, but Athena was the really the only one that like, came and chatted with him.

[A]

Is it Athena or is it his, like, guilty war trauma? Who knows?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I'm actually kind of okay with. I actually liked when the thing is. So you have. You have Athena appearing a lot and then in the sort of the last kind of climax of the movie, you realize that this is also the face and the personage of the goddess. Or, sorry, the. As the priestess in the temple. I almost wanted to, like, pause the movie and just kind of like, contemplate that for a second. I was like, what are they saying with this? Are they saying that he, like, they actually captured, quote, unquote, captured Athena and that was breaking the hospitality code? Or is. Athena doesn't exist. It's just his guilty conscience over killing this girl. Anyway, I thought that was very.

[B]

Athena was mad at all the Greeks, pretty much, except for Odysseus. Like, they. She was livid with them because of some stuff that they did.

[A]

Doesn't Polyphemus, the. The Cyclops, when he's like muttering things to himself and his men are like, dude, he's freaking asking Poseidon to wreck us. Doesn't matter. Doesn't Odysseus say something on the lines of like gods don't exist. Yes, yeah.

[C]

At that. But he goes back and forth. Right. And ultimately by the time of the cattle he blew leaves in the gods.

[A]

But that is again like the very modern.

[B]

I mean once you've seen the underworld, it's kind of hard to be like

[A]

I guess is not real.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Where do we want to go next? We want to talk Menelaus and Helen.

[C]

Was that bad? Is that why you.

[A]

So I just say the casting of menus is kind of ridiculous.

[C]

Why?

[A]

Cuz. What's his name? Barenthal?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Like, you know, Telemachus is. Have you heard anything about my dad? And he's like Odysseus. I fought with Odysseus a Troy. I don't know. He's just sort of got this like. It's like he's at it. It's like Telemachus is at an old legion hall and he's like come up with a Vietnam vet and the guy's like, you don't know nothing about Troy's son.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of like.

[C]

Because they hear the story from the bards of how like heroic Troy was and then he's like, we had to poop while we were in the Trojan horse.

[A]

Let me tell you something about Troy there.

[C]

Boy. I thought that was great.

[A]

I thought it was.

[B]

He did get stories about Odysseus in Menelaus's house. The only thing is that they portrayed the marriage between Menelaus and Helen is really strange in the book. It's. They're doing fine.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's like one of the only people that kind of back to normal, doing okay. What was. She's a little weird.

[A]

Yeah. If you're, if you're going to cast Bear is Barenthal. Joe John Baron Joe John. If you're going to cast him, like that's the performance you're going to get. Like you're not going to get anything different. You're going to. Gonna get like, like exactly what you got with. With Menelaus. But I don't.

[B]

I. I mean like I think they could have done worse.

[A]

I get. I don't know. Just like I like, is he a beggar? Is he in prison? Let me tell you something about Odysseus.

[B]

The only thing is that I think he would have made a great Agamemnon because Agamemnon is sort of the. I'm. I'm big and I'm dopey and I say stuff I don't mean and I, I kind of Go off the handle. I'm not a good leader, but I love killing stuff. And he's over dramatic and crazy and then like, like there's a part in the book in the Iliad where Menelaus gets shot, right, like in the guts. And Agamemnon is like, you will not have died in vain, brother. And he's like, oh, you're freaking out the men. And he's like, I will avenge you. And he's like, man, it's like an inch deep.

[C]

I'll be fine.

[B]

You gotta dial it back. Like that happens in the Iliad. And so I thought he would have made a great, you know, a great Agamemnon and then maybe someone a little more measured for Menelaus. But because Menelaus was like one of the things that Telemachus saw when he went to his house was wealth earned by risk and a good marriage. He had never seen really a good marriage before. He.

[A]

This, this is the book.

[B]

This is the book.

[A]

Yeah. Because he doesn't see a good marriage.

[C]

He does not.

[B]

So he goes and he sees like. And Helen is like, I was such a ditz, I can't hold. Whole Trojan War thing. And then sort of moves on, tells some story about Odysseus. They all hang out together and then she drugs them all and makes them all happy. It's a very weird time. But what he sees is a king with a well ordered house. Wealth won through risk, which is what men of Greece should have done. And then a good marriage. Stuff that he'd never really seen before. That's not quite what you saw in the movie. And I was kind of sad that Helen came back marred. She, as far as I understand, she didn't. She came back in the book.

[A]

It's. It's kind of like, it leaves it open to interpretation because when I first saw it, I was like, geez, Menelaus.

[C]

That's what I thought. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

As like punishment. And then so you have this like, really uncomfortable. And then later on you have like Helen trying to like, you know, like, do the like do the like. I am an abused woman.

[B]

Like, oh, did she really?

[A]

Well, no, she doesn't do that, but she, she does the like. Goes up to Telemachus and she's like, tell Penelope I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Don't let my husband hear me. Like, she has that moment where she goes to Telemachus and it was like, tell Penelope it was all my fault and I'm so sorry. And then Menelaus is Like what you talking about down there?

[B]

But that like. Yeah, the abuse thing was weird, but the whole Helen feeling sorry for the Trojan War, that's. That's book Helen.

[A]

But the thing is, my reading of Helen in the, in the Odyssey with that is that exactly like you said, she's just like kind of ditzy and she doesn't maybe doesn't really recognize entirely what she's wrought in the fact that she just wanted to go like be a woo girl. With the boy. With the boy. She was.

[B]

I don't think that's totally fair. She does say some pretty hard things about herself in the Iliad and the Odyssey. And in her defense, there's not a lot she could have done about it.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

Right.

[B]

She can't like switch sides. The war is happening within her will or without. It doesn't matter what she does. The war is going to happen and she was compelled into it by Hera. It wasn't really her fault in the first place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was not like the plight of women back then. She didn't really have a lot of say in the matter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And whatever happened, in fact, she. By the end of it, she will. By the middle of the Iliad, she didn't really like Paris anymore. She. He was kind of a worm.

[A]

So that's the thing is like when you are. If you're trying to. Cat. If you're trying to write that story and you are trying to think about the motivations of Paris and Helen, one reading of it is that like it is a woman in a. In a trapped in a loveless marriage who've had. Who goes for somebody that she loves and you kind of have a like Anna Karenina kind of story. And then she realizes that maybe that. That following her desire has brought on so much destruction. That's one way you can tell it.

[C]

Or you.

[A]

You could just like tell it as a pure love story. Like actually Paris was her one true love and Menelaus is a big dink. And you're talking about from the books. I'm just saying that like, if you're thinking of how you cast it or how you sort of tell the story, the story in Homer is so much more like nuanced and messed up. It's like the gods kind of did it on purpose.

[B]

She has a weird moment of lust.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's essentially just sort of this moment of lust. She may or may not have been sort of going with Paris willingly. Everyone's super confused. And I think that confusion adds to the Story where it's like Agamemnon sees a whole confused interrelational problem, seizes upon it to get the war he's always wanted. And everybody's going to this war under different pretenses as to whether or not the war is justified.

[B]

Oh, well, most of them are compelled through oath.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. But Agamemnon's almost kind of like, weaponized that. Oh, forget his war.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Anyway, but like, the Helen.

[B]

Nobody really wants to be there.

[A]

The Helen and Melania in Nolan's movie is. It's just sort of like a little stereotypical on the nose, like, unhappy marriage and then you. Power dynamics and. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So there's.

[B]

There's some modern things, but I thought they did a good job of bringing in as much of the ancient world as they could. Now, also, I mean, granted, there were some historical inaccuracies. I don't think they had steel plate mail.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I did some research. Did you know they did have plate mail?

[C]

No.

[B]

It was bronze.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

It wasn't steel.

[A]

In the Age of Bronze.

[B]

In the Age of Bronze. I think it was, actually, because it's

[C]

like, if you're in the Middle Ages, you don't know they're the Middle Ages.

[A]

Yeah. That's a dumb.

[B]

Our Age of Bronze, or whatever our Age is gonna be called. What do they call it? Like, the transistor age?

[C]

Our information.

[A]

I thought our information age is at an end. Enter. Coming to an end. Anyway, now, the Clytemnestra scene was awesome. I loved it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I thought it was great. Very brief. The bathing of Agamemnon and then. Now, I don't think Clytemnestra kills Agamemnon in Clytemnestra. I thought it was.

[B]

I think she does.

[A]

I thought it was her. Her lover.

[B]

Fairly.

[C]

I thought she did.

[B]

Maybe she did.

[A]

I know she comes out covered in blood.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

They didn't have Cassandra, which would have been great. The little scene with Iphigenia crying was great.

[B]

I was so sad at first.

[C]

I thought Athena was Iphigenia. Right. Because we see her long before we see Athena get killed. But then clearly it's Athena later.

[A]

Yeah. And then you've got the whole. That scene where Clyde. Yeah, I loved it. Clytemnestor killing. That just sort of the turn that she goes from sort of smiling and almost sort of seductive to like, stabbing him in the neck is horrifying.

[B]

And it's spot on.

[A]

It is spot on.

[B]

Spot on for what's in the Ancient. Like, she writes him into the house. She rolls out the red carpet, like, liter rolls out the red carpet in Echelis. Says, like, he's like, I don't think I should. Like, this is for the gods. And she's like, you are one. Do you think Priam wouldn't like, the king of Troy, you know, you should do this. So she gets him to sort of trample on the God's laws, puts him in a bath, stabs him through some

[A]

cloaks, and then they make reference to the fact that Orestes gets revenge.

[B]

So they even get arrestes in there.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was great. That whole treatment was awesome. I loved it. Yeah, it was great.

[B]

Yeah. Super good.

[C]

Okay, then the hospitality. So the suitors. Can. Could Telemachus have killed the suitors at any point? Or did he need some kind of, like, inciting incident to be able to do that?

[B]

Oh, was that. Was that in the movie that they used some sort of incident?

[C]

Yeah, they. So, like, you know, Odysseus, the whole time is trying to keep Telemachus from attacking them because, like, he can't break the oath of hospitality like that.

[B]

Oh, no, no.

[C]

So Odysseus has to be the one to do it so that the blame is on him. So. So we can be exiled.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's weird. In the book, at least they brought the hospitality code in. But in the book, even the nobles of the town are like, you suitors are. The suitors were trampling on the hospitality code. So while you have to treat guests well, because they could be gods in disguise, you have to be good guests. And you can't take advantage of your hosts.

[C]

Which they had done.

[B]

Which they had done. Right. They were supposed to leave. Telemachus even holds council at the beginning of the Odyssey and says, get out of my house. Like, I want you guys out. My wife will pick a suit, pick a husband, whatever. But you have got. Yeah, yeah, sorry. My mom will pick a suitor. You guys have got to quit taking all of my wealth. And they. They basically say, you're a baby. What are you gonna do about it? Yeah, like, come at me. And the. Even the nobles say you guys are trampling on Zeus's law. And they're like, screw Zeus. Yeah, yeah, they. It is.

[C]

So they bring it on themselves.

[B]

So obvious that they are culpable. And so the reason Telemachus couldn't transgress in the book is that there's just too many of them. There's. I think full count is somewhere between. Somewhere around114.117suitors. And they don't like him. They want to kill him. Because they do, you know, like, they get him, they want him out of the way. And so if he were to challenge it, he'd get killed.

[C]

And the final battle is Odysseus, Telemachus and the faithful servants.

[B]

Yes. So Odysseus, Telemachus, Eumaeus, the cowherd, and Athena actually appears at some point. It's strange, at the first part she's like, she shows up as mentor and she's like, I'll help. Let me see the Odysseus of the war. And then she's like, just kidding, turns into a bird and then goes and sits on the rafters while Odysseus does the real fight.

[A]

Odysseus doesn't need help.

[B]

And then near the end, she like brings out her shield and freaks everybody out. And so Odysseus chases him down the hall and kills him. They spare a couple of people, but

[A]

it was a great scene. The stringing of the bow is pretty dope.

[B]

When he plucked it and it sounded like a piano string or whatever it was. Chills every time.

[A]

It was such a good name and everyone knows it. And then. What's that? What's the name of the head suitor? What's his name?

[B]

Antinous.

[A]

Antinous. Like the look of fear in his face. I mean, runs for the door. Robert Pattinson. Pattinson, yeah. Yeah. Who played him? Just like he was just eating it up, the whole thing. Somebody got these bigger. So, so good.

[B]

I thought he was perfect.

[A]

Yes, he was awesome. He was on it like the camera loved him. There was a couple of scenes where you, like, where like it felt like Nolan left the camera running longer than you. Like then like there was a couple of beats where it stayed on his face where he was just being like a. Whatever, you know, just being insufferable. And it was delicious.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

Robert Pattinson is awesome. I. Every role I've seen him in, except for Twilight, has been an absolute banger. He does not miss. He is, I think, underrated because of Twilight, because of the directing there. But I've seen him do stuff that is incredible.

[A]

He's been into like Eggers movies and

[B]

yeah, I saw one where it was a post apocalypse and he was supposed to be sort of mentally addled, like he was Mickey 12, half smart, no different than that way before. And I would have believed that he did not have all of his wits about now.

[A]

It was a little cheesy when the weapons kept coming through the roof. And he's like, the swords get the swords, the shields get the shield.

[C]

Spears. Spears.

[A]

Like, that was a little.

[B]

It was a little cheesy, but not entirely different than what was. At what actually happened.

[C]

That is true. Like breaking a hole through the upper floor.

[B]

And it was a little bit different. It was not necessarily through the. The floor. But, gosh, if it wasn't really close to what actually happened.

[C]

And then does Telemachus go after the servant? Yeah, that all happens.

[B]

It was. I think it was Telemachus. I think it was the goatherd or the. Sorry, the swineherd that went up there. Eumaeus got him. I can't remember if Telemachus trapped him. I don't think so.

[A]

They even had Argos the dog. That was great.

[B]

Dying on a pile of poop. Like he actually did. Okay, so they got so many details right. Let me name a few.

[A]

Although the tail wag was not like a real tail wag.

[C]

It was like an animatronic.

[A]

It looked like an animatronic tail. I was like, that's kind of weird that. That drained the emotion for me.

[B]

Well, they didn't use CG at all.

[C]

They.

[A]

They used a little bit with polemic. With polyp. I know Polyphemus was a giant puppet, but they also, like, smoothed it over cg, right. And skill and Cryptis. They do.

[B]

I think it. I think it was supposed to be all practical. Let me check. I've. I've heard it was all practical effects. I could be wrong.

[A]

The tentacle monster.

[C]

How did it pick up the sucking dudes if they were off the boat while you're looking stuff up? How did you all watch the movie? I feel like the big dialogue is what, like.

[B]

Okay, so it was a hybrid. Hybrid approach combining heavy practical effects, physical stunt rigging, and digital enhancements. So they did get a little bit

[A]

of digital help, but we did not see it in imax. We just saw it at the Slaughter Alamo Drafthouse.

[B]

I would consider doing it again in imax.

[A]

I would too. I definitely. I've seen people do the, like comparing side by sides and was like, oh, you actually see all of Agamemnon's hat.

[C]

Well, for that you need. That's the 70 millimeter thing, right? So I saw it at an IMAX, but it was just. I didn't. I didn't realize this. There are different kinds of IMAX screens.

[A]

I also did not realize.

[C]

So Austin, all of our Austin listeners, the Bob Bullock has like a full size IMAX screen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, that's when I think imax. That's what I'm thinking of. The one I went to is just like a slightly bigger screen, but otherwise was the exact same. But the Bob Bullock. It sold out through the end of the run of the Odyssey.

[A]

It's great.

[C]

There are no more tickets. It's a spectacle.

[A]

It's awesome.

[C]

And you have to go to San Antonio or Dallas to get like the real, real imax.

[A]

There's like four in the nation or whatever.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Well, there's only like a handful of like screens in the country where you can see it the way that Christopher Nolan shot it. Okay. Yeah. Which is delightfully snobby.

[B]

Yeah. Cool.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. As of.

[A]

You see other things we need to talk about or just something aj.

[B]

I mean, I have a whole list of things.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So the turning skillet in Charybdis into a like. Let me teach you about the pains of leading men.

[B]

That's what it is.

[A]

No, what?

[C]

Yeah. It's about either losing all your men or only.

[A]

But that. It's that decision. But, but it. In the book, does Odysseus be like, you know what you fellas decide? Or I'm gonna let my, like, I'm gonna let my upstart second mate make this decision. And he tricks them into making the decision. Then his second mate's like, you tricked us. And Odysseus is like, that's what it means to be a leader of men.

[B]

All right, so that's a. It's a little bit off, but not by much. He does not tell them he doesn't want. But he, he puts on his armor instead and comes up on deck. And if I was one of his dads, I mean, hey, man, what's going on?

[A]

Why are you all dressed up?

[B]

Well, yeah. What are you doing? And then people get eaten. And I'm sure they were angry at him. I just, I don't think there was the. Hey, we should go for. There was none of the, like, tricked

[A]

us into wishy washy.

[B]

Which way should we go? We should do whirlpool first and then trick him into doing the other thing. It was just. But it was close enough that it doesn't make me mad.

[A]

The siren scene was one of the most arresting scenes in the whole movie. I loved it.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

The, the, the line. I thought it was great in that you don't hear the siren song. You just kind of see like, like seductive lounging ladies on rocks.

[B]

I'm kind of sad they weren't what they actually are. Which Is.

[A]

Which is like winged. Winged women.

[B]

Like lady headed birds.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It would have probably been worse scene now in the. Like I said, they could go silly. Really.

[A]

In the Odyssey, in the book, you actually have someone who takes the wax out and jumps in, right?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I don't remember any.

[A]

That may just be like.

[B]

But it's, you know, it's fine. But that could have been. The thing is just not mention it.

[A]

I think there was treatments of. I think that was a popular way of telling it. Not in the Iliad, but like in like the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. To have somebody like do that. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't think it harmed the tale.

[A]

To have it. To have the. It be like the song they're singing is kind. It's basically like romanticism, you know, it's like this a longing for something that you can't have, but then you realize you had it, but now you can't get it back. And I was like, oh, man, that. That gets you right in the liver, that one.

[B]

Yes. They're.

[A]

It's like a knitting needle in the guts. Yeah, it was great.

[C]

Mentioned Cersei and like the transformation and the pigs.

[A]

That was again, also one of my most favorite scenes.

[B]

I got so many chills that whole time because there was. I don't think there was any way they could have done that. Not silly going into that. I was like, this is going to be stupid. However they do it, it's going to be stupid. She's going to do a potion and then pull out a wand and go, boop. And they'll turn into pigs and it'll

[A]

be done and then. Or they're not going to show it and disease is going to be like, what's with all these frigging pigs?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I thought. I thought they either can't show it or it'll be dumb.

[A]

But what they did was just amazing.

[B]

It was incredible.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It was one of my favorite scenes of the whole thing. I mean, they painted Cersei as a weird, suspicious, frightened, witchy kind of person, which I don't necessarily think was true.

[A]

Yeah. But I thought that that was a fun. I liked that sort of interpretation where here's somebody that keeps getting taken advantage of by, like all these sailors.

[B]

I thought it was fine.

[C]

It's like her defense.

[B]

I thought the little concessions they made and the changes they made were absolutely okay. And because we didn't have Odysseus being the philandering guy that he is in the book, he's not running around with women the whole time because.

[A]

Because he sleeps with. With Calypso or he lives with Cersei in the book.

[B]

Yes. And.

[A]

And then does he say something like, you're trying to lure me into your bed. I'm going to come with you, but you better not try any of your magic on me. Doesn't he say something like that?

[B]

So what happens is Hermes gives him the flower that protects him from the potion. And so he drinks it. And then she's like, what's going on? So he rushes her with the sword and says, like, you let my men go. And then she immediately is like, let's love you. Yeah, let's do it. And so he's like, okay, dope. Basically, partially because it's for all of our other audience members when you refuse a God. And what they want is, you know, sexy times, they can make your life terrible. There's a long record of people being really hurt and really injured when they don't give the gods what they want. So he does. The only thing is that in the book, he then lingers for a year, getting his shoulders rubbed and drinking wine and having feasts and sort of hanging out. And eventually his men are like, dude, we have to go home before this happening Lent.

[A]

Which is again, my, like, gripe in that. In the book, Odysseus. In the movie, Odysseus has this, like, gotta get home. In the book, you've got so many scenes where disease is like, we can kind of chill out here for a bit.

[B]

He lolly gags until the underworld.

[A]

And in fact, he lolly gags until the underworld. And they have him being on Calypso's island where he's eating the lotus. Yeah, and that's not in the book. It's other people who eat the lotus.

[B]

And it's a totally different.

[A]

It's a totally different.

[B]

Yeah, other people eat the lotus. It's way later. And with Calypso, he can't leave because he doesn't have a way out. But it is heavily implied, if not explicit, that he does for a while, like her and stay with Calypso by choice, and enjoys it. Then eventually he's like, I gotta go home.

[A]

And they're, like, playing, like, sand crab fishing in this little.

[B]

But him sort of hanging out on the beaches and just weeping all day. That's accurate. That's exactly what he's doing. And that he's not, like, changed.

[A]

Did I have a wife? I forget if I had a boy. Like, that doesn't happen.

[C]

Yeah. He is actively choosing Calypso in the books. Right.

[B]

At least he's not beginning at the end.

[C]

He.

[B]

He wants to leave. And she keeps him there because she loves him. And he. Originally, he did kind of. She pleased him at the beginning, but now doesn't anymore.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She even offers him immortality and he refuses it.

[C]

So they make Odysseus much more sympathetic in the movie. They do, right. Oh, yeah.

[B]

But I understand, you know.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It's tough to watch a movie where you're not sympathetic to that main guy.

[A]

So unless that was how you're going to frame the movie is if you had the underworld be this pivotal moment.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And instead of going and having the underworld be like, here's all the men that died because you were in war. You could have had to be like, whoa, Achilles. Oh, isn't being a hero awesome? And Achilles could be like, I wish I was alive and living a simple life. And then Odysseus is kind of has this moment where he's like, responsibility is best. And then he goes home. Like, there was a piece of that

[B]

when he talked to Sinon. And Sinon says, hey, you have to honor the dead. You got to get that together. Yes, yes, that's true. That happened in the book. Except it was just a different crewman. It was Elpenor sign on. We don't encounter at all. Yeah, that whole story is extratextual, I think.

[A]

Loved the underworld scene. Although it was a little strange to have Tiresias be kind of like a ray or whatever, like sort of flopping around on the beach.

[B]

He was blind. He had.

[A]

He's definitely blind. Yeah. But he's sort of like.

[B]

He kind of came up and put his arms out and then. But he had that big piece of.

[C]

Over his face.

[A]

Fabric over his face.

[B]

Because he loved blind. But I think that was amazing.

[A]

Yeah. Killing the goats.

[B]

I love the way they did it. They killed the goats. That was pretty much spot on for exactly what happened in the book, except he saw a few more people. They didn't get chased by the dead.

[A]

Yeah, the chase by the dead was a little corny. Yeah, that kind of. And the thing is, like, how can you not have the scene where. Where Achilles says it is better to. It would be better to be living than dead. Like, being.

[B]

Because he wasn't, like, seeking glory.

[A]

That began because you have this.

[B]

You have the missing.

[A]

So you have the talking to the dead. They reveal the central theme of the movie, which is like, we. You should feel sad for war. And then you. So the. And therefore the best thing that you can do is find a woman you love and abdicate responsibility, you know, and then that ends up. Which is it. That's a very modern thematic thing.

[B]

But I was really sad that the one thing I think would have fit into the movie really well is his mom.

[A]

This is his mom?

[B]

Yeah. He sees her in the underworld and she's basically, I died missing you. And if you don't need more prompting to get home, that'll do it. She gives him all kinds of news, like, your wife is not married. Your throne is still available. Telemachus holds it, but they're in danger, and I died from missing you. If nothing will get you home faster, talking to your mom and finding out that there's still a place for you at home and that your dad is almost there and you are. Yeah. You are desperately needed and everyone is wishing for you back. That's. I mean, that conversation is a big piece, I think, of what turns them

[A]

around and that they don't really have that in the underworld.

[C]

Y' all mentioned a few times. Is it people from the sea? What are they called?

[B]

The sea people? Yeah, the people from the sea.

[C]

So is that in the.

[A]

It's us.

[B]

No. Everyone knew what was happening at Troy. It's not like it was a mystery. They sent their people out to go to Troy and it wasn't like the rumors from Troy came out and like an army attacked. Everyone's like, we know, we sent it there.

[C]

Yeah, but isn't it like there's this fear of this like unknown military force, like, sweeping through Greece or whatever? Right. Like, isn't that what. But even in the movie that's not really happening. Wasn't it just.

[B]

It's just them. It's rumors about them.

[A]

But there is also this like, feeling that because we like cosmically broke the hospitality code with the Trojan horse are. That's like the. The spell of our age is now broken and chaos is like coming. Oh, and it's actually us. Like the calls from inside the house.

[B]

That's really silly. And the hospitality code was broken all the time. There was some crazy stuff that happened in the that era. I mean, if you just look at the house of Atreus, that thing was a hot hornets mess of terror and upset loss.

[A]

But there was possible.

[B]

There was punishment.

[C]

But that's what I mean of like there's punishment every ending of the age.

[B]

And there's punishment in the book as well. I mean, the cyclops breaks the hospitality code, gets blinded. Right. So it's a repeated thing. Break the hospitality code. And you get yours.

[C]

So Odysseus and his men blinding the Cyclops is like, quote unquote. Okay. Because partially eating them. Interesting.

[B]

He. He shouldn't have eaten them. They expected. Oh. Odysseus stayed in the cave because he expected a guest gift, which is what is customary to give guests.

[A]

And artisanal cheese.

[B]

And because the cheese was good.

[C]

Cheese is pretty good.

[B]

Which was accurate.

[A]

That was really great.

[C]

That was pretty good.

[A]

And the thing is, if nobody knows the. The Odyssey and then they're just like, he makes really good cheese. I can imagine people be like, what am I watching?

[B]

Yeah, I. I mean, that's the thing, is that the Odyssey is sometimes such a silly tale. The whole nobody has blinded me would have not played well on the big screen. And a little bummed.

[C]

I don't know. I like that part. It's fun to see. It would not have fit with the rest of the tone. You're right.

[B]

And with Matt Damon doing that, I just wouldn't have come over.

[A]

Correct. Forbidden barbecue was good.

[B]

Oh, that was such a good moment.

[A]

They're all like, kind of hiding in a hole, being like, frig off.

[C]

Odysseus eating the cow. Sun God, whatever it is. Yeah.

[A]

Helios.

[B]

Helios.

[A]

The winds not changing.

[B]

That was accurate. That whole. The mutiny, along with them landing, he making them swear and then them not being able to leave, all of it accurate.

[A]

They didn't play up. I mean, they mentioned the sacrifice of Iphigenia, but they didn't really, like, lean. They didn't really spend a lot of time talking about it. I can imagine people being like, what's going on?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because that went pretty quick.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because they introduced this. Like, the weight of the sacrifice depends on how much you love the thing that you're sacrificing. But they don't really come back to that. I don't. Yeah. Why are you laughing? That's not how it works.

[B]

That's not really how it works, really. It's because a goddess demanded that that be the sacrifice. She said, yeah.

[A]

What is that story in the Iliad?

[B]

So they had gathered the entire army,

[C]

but the winds were bad.

[B]

The winds were bad. There was no wind to take them to Troy. And they asked why, and they found out it was because Agamemnon had shot one of Artemis's sacred In Artemis's sacred grove and then claimed he was a better hunter than Artemis. And Artemis heard him, and so he's like, oh, yeah. And that was. What's his name? Calcus. Who Said it. The seer who later in the. In the Iliad, Agamemnon doesn't like him. Well, obviously. He said, you have to sacrifice your kid. And so they sent Odysseus to go talk to Clytemnestra, his wife, and pretend that Iania was going to marry Achilles. So she sent her daughter off for what she thought was her wedding day to one of the greatest warriors in the world, only to find out that Agamemnon sacrificed her. No wonder she shacked up with his weird nephew. Cousin and killed him later. Makes sense.

[A]

What is the daughter's name? I always thought it was Iphigenia.

[B]

I'm. I don't know how to pronounce exactly.

[C]

How did he. How did you just say it?

[B]

Iphagenia.

[C]

Oh, I thought the way Graham said it is the way I've used.

[A]

Anyway, it's great.

[B]

I can look it up. I'll look it up. I got a pronunciation.

[A]

Oh. I really liked when Odysseus is like, you know what? You guys go find food. I'm gonna go hunting. And, like, stalks the deer and shoots him. He's like, got him. And then he goes in the grass. There's, like, a dude with a, like, bare bottom. Very nice, very shapely bare bottom. And he. He had a. Yeah. Anyway, I thought it was very funny. I don't know. I don't know why that made me laugh so much, but aj.

[C]

I think the episode just walked out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's getting my pronunciation glasses.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

Tell us how to pronounce.

[C]

Why do you have a pronunciation glossary? Not in your.

[A]

They've been cleaning the classrooms. Sorry. That was great.

[B]

You can't hear me. I'm coming back.

[C]

Welcome.

[A]

And then Odysseus kind of puts it together. He's like, I just shot a deer. That was a dude. And then he's, like, walking. There's, like, tigers and jackals and lions and stuff, which I'm assuming are also dudes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then the scene with Cersei. Oh, AJ Is Cersei's sister a bird in the book?

[B]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

That's made up.

[A]

That was just made up. All right.

[C]

It was good.

[B]

It is not in this one. I should have picked up the Iliad.

[A]

Oh, well, Thomas, what do you think about the message or the themes of the book? About, like, when you were. What did. Did that disappoint you? That. That.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm saying it wrong.

[A]

That Odysseus was, like, grizzled war veteran, or did you. Or are you really, like that's just to be expected.

[C]

When. What part are you.

[A]

I'm just thinking about, like, just sort of the portrayal of Odysseus as. Because in my mind Odysseus is twinkle in his eye. Thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, is the smartest guy in the room. Is a little. Not the life of the party, but is. He's a great warrior, but he's. But he's also industrious and clever. He's kind of like MacGyver. And then in this, he's just sort of like sitting by himself on the boat, like looking out to the sea, looking at his like, wife's hairpin. And all those men are like, oh man, he's seen some stuff. And I am less.

[C]

We've already said. I'm just, I'm unsympathetic to Odysseus in the book, by and large. And like, I just think it's the point. It's a point of the book is he keeps making horrible decisions one right after the other. And so for the movie to portray him sympathetically, it's just a different character. And so this is the story of a man who wants to get home. He has some of the arrogance, but not all of it. Wants to make things right. But I also think couldn't stay at home, right? Like, what would he. He has made to travel. He's made for the next journey.

[B]

So one of our alumni pointed out that this was originally an orally passed down tale anyway. And so it's one of those things where you, if you want to interpret, you can. And he's not wrong. The, the source material for a ton of what we know about the Iliad and Odyssey, there's a bunch of different sources and they don't always agree. I mean, the Iliad and Odyssey themselves are pretty authoritative, but there are different versions about, you know, who made the pact to protect Helen. Exactly what happened when everyone got like, there's just a lot of different versions. In one version, in fact, Helen was never even in Troy. She was in Egypt.

[C]

She got turned into a cloud. Right. Like there's a fake Helen and Troy and the real ones in Egypt the whole time.

[B]

So to have a little bit of open for interpretation is a classical thing.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

It's not like we have to say, no, this is terrible, it's fine. An interpretation is okay. And that it came into modern times. I am sad that they didn't have a couple of the scenes in the Odyssey that could have been in the Odyssey. I really would have loved to see what they did with the bag of wind.

[A]

I don't know that one.

[B]

Aeolus, the wind God that bags up the three winds, leaving only one wind to send them home. And then the men open the bag and they all sail back. I mean, it could have gone silly,

[C]

but they couldn't have because the gods aren't like literal in this. Right?

[B]

I know, but they could have had a weird wind magician because that's kind of. He's the master of winds.

[C]

And so it would be a person who.

[B]

They actually met him. Like they go and they stay at his house for a month and he feasts them. And it's also weird because he has 12 kids and they're all married to each other. Six boys, six girls. Yeah, girls. And so he could have done a really weird thing with Aeolus and the wind. And the guy gives him this bag and he's like, what in the world?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And the men don't trust him and open it up. Like I think they could have done that.

[A]

Then they'll. The conceit of the book is that Odysseus washes up naked on an island and he's like telling the story to people in a castle. Right. Or the. And that. That concede isn't even there. It's him slowly remembering it on Calypso's island.

[C]

I was fine with that. It's just a different.

[B]

Yeah, it was okay. I thought they did a really good job with the laced Dragonians, which is the plate mail, the giant plate.

[A]

I love those guys.

[B]

So fun fact. Those people really were that tall. And the person playing Odysseus was a five foot tall woman who was his stunt double and had amazing. So they didn't do Biceps are fantastic.

[A]

They didn't do Force perspective. They found like a 5 foot tall tall woman that was super jacked and put her in the armor.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And then they found like a seven foot tall dude and put him in the armor and had them fight.

[B]

Did not know that. Yeah, legit.

[A]

That was pretty cool.

[B]

And okay, can I go through a list of some of the details they got right? I. I just want to point out how faithful they were to as many details as they could. So Eurymachus, the suitor, second in command, got shot right in the neck by Odysseus first. That happened in the book. First guy to die. The stringing of the bow was pretty accurate. They didn't actually heat it and limber it up with oil in the movie. But one of the guys Suggested that they do. He's like, we should do this. Melanthius the goatherd going to get the arms. That actually happened. And they have to go and get him. And then they string him up to the rafters. Melan foe his sister sleeping with Antinous is also accurate. The unfaithful serving girl is the goatherd's sister.

[A]

And then, like, Penelope gets to, like, dunk on her and be like, you stay down there.

[B]

She dies. In the book. In the book, all the unfaithful serving women do they hang them. Meaning? So when they met them at Lacedrygonians, remember the giant people with the plate armor, how they met the girl first and she runs off crying. That happened.

[A]

It's like the giant man baby.

[B]

So they meet this princess who they describe as sort of like strapping, like, she's husky, she's a sturdy girl. And then she leads them to the parents who turn out to be these giant cannibals. And then they really do cut down the men, spear them like fish, wreck the boats. I mean, a lot of it is throwing rocks from above, but they do spear the men like fish. Like all of that is accurate to the book.

[A]

I love them, like, rocking their boat back to sink it. Like a bunch of bullies at camp.

[B]

Yeah, it was just like bashing the sides off of it was so good. Staying in the Cyclops's cave, eating his cheese actually happened. Eurymachus, the second in command on the boat, leading the mutiny before they land on the island of the Kettle of the sun, staying there for a month, eating the cattle after a while, then having the boat sunk in a storm. All of that is from the book. Odysseus not telling the men about Scylla, Charybdis being a whirlpool, which, by the way, practical effects. They had jets underneath the sea to create the whirlpool casting. A lot of the things about the Trojan horse were spot on. They didn't put it on wheels. Thank heavens for this film.

[C]

I was wondering about that. Is that that's just a thing people add later, like, just in paintings.

[B]

For some reason, it's always like a toy horse on wheels. No, that they absolutely didn't. They put it up as an offering to Athena, which they got right in the book and left sign on to lie about it. Which they got right in the book. Except they kill him, I think. They don't kill sign on, they take it in and then they have a party and then they climb out and open the gates. All of that was. Was spot on. So the gods, you know, weren't obnoxious. They did a good job here. Odysseus going on a journey later to honor the. The men that had died. Like, that's a thing. The. What they did with the underworld was almost. Almost like spot for spot. What happened in the book. Right. They slaughter the lambs they poured into a trench. They don't let people eat it until Tiresia comes. Tiresia gives them hints. Almost all of the hints he gave were nailed. Cersei was really dang good, although he didn't spend an extra year with her. But a lot of that was accurate and weird. Fun fact that our audience might not know later. Telemachus marries Cersei. Oh, yeah.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[C]

Did not know that.

[B]

Yep. They get together. Her unweaving the shroud. Antinous throwing the stool at Odysseus as a beggar. Like him abusing him. That was in the book. That's a breach of the hospitality code. Right? Odysseus is there as a guest.

[C]

The.

[B]

The people who run the house have said he can be here as a guest and then he is abused. And so it's them breaking the hospitality code again. The hospitality code at all being in the film because it's something we don't really have. Like, we do hospitality, but it's not like written into law as it was back then. That. That was amazing.

[C]

The whole thing that you're doing it because it could be a God that you're helping. Is that the reason that's.

[B]

That's part of why it is accurate is because gods come in. You don't know that it's them. So you treat all guests well and then you often send them off with a gift because traveling is expensive and dangerous and so they need to make it worthwhile. Euryclaya finding the boar scar as she washed his feet and him threatening her.

[C]

That was so cool.

[B]

Absolutely accurate. His big act of hubris with the Cyclops. Also accurate. The Cyclops throwing the rock. Also accurate. The whole eyes of Athena thing, whenever it was Athena in disguise. Nailed it. It was just so many details were perfect. And I think they even had Odysseus go hunting and get game when he was supposed to a few times. It was just on the money. Almost all of it. And wow. I was. All those, like little tiny things that they didn't have to include but did from the book. Made me love the film even more. Argos, the dog dying on a pile of poop. Like he was Supposed to Umaeus, the faithful swineherd being awesome. Oh, it was just. So much of it was amazing.

[A]

But even when. Even when Odysseus sees Argos, like, he doesn't have an emotional moment. He's just sort of like, sees his dog and his dog wags and he kind of pets him as a good boy and then he, like. I don't know.

[B]

That's what happens in the book.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He sheds a single tear and then wipes it away stoically because he can't take a moment with the dog because it'll give it away.

[A]

I came home, AJ and I watched it at. Starting at 10 o' clock and it ended at like 1 in the morning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I came home, got my dog out of his crate, and we, like, hung out in the living room for 10 minutes. I was like, you're such a good boy.

[B]

He is a good boy. Anyway, if you are out there wondering if Nolan did a good job.

[A]

He did a great job.

[B]

He did.

[A]

He did a great job.

[B]

I'm wondering how many people actually on that set read the book because of how close it was to exactly what it should have been.

[A]

It didn't have the tenor. It didn't have the, like, like my. I loved it. When I came out, my first thought was, that wasn't Odysseus. Like, it was. It was a modern hero.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, it was. And like. And Thomas, you're right. We would. We would have a hard time watching a movie of somebody who was so unsympathetic a character as Odysseus is, unless they really played up the character change in hell. In Hades, you kind of needed to play Odysseus as like, sort of almost as like. To make it more understandable, you almost had to play him as like a character, like one of the guys from Jackass, like Steve.

[B]

Okay, I don't think that's totally fair. If you look at when he's with

[A]

the Johnny Knoxville, like, getting sober and, like, deciding to, like, go be responsible.

[B]

But when he's with the Phaeacians and he hears the song about what happened at Troy, like, he does break down weeping in the middle of a feast and cover his head with his robe awkwardly, as everyone else is at dinner. I mean, he is a little bit tortured by the war. It does make him sad, Penelope wanting him to not sing the song like the Bard, not to sing about the war that. That happened in the book. She's like, you gotta shut up. And everyone's like, no, we want to hear this, that. That's an accurate thing. So I don't think it's totally fair to paint Odysseus only as a modern hero. I think they did take cues from what he was. Like, he was afraid to go home. He did just get out of the war. I think there was some PTSD floating around there. I do think there was an element of, I'm the smartest guy in the room and I want more glory. But I think there was also some leftover trauma.

[C]

You think he regretted the Trojan War?

[B]

No, not at all. He never regretted.

[C]

I think that's the part.

[A]

Yeah, I.

[B]

That part bothered me because he never would have regretted the horse or the war at all. He just felt sad for the people he had lost and he, I think, was a little afraid to go home

[C]

so that, like, whatever he's responding to, there isn't the end of the war. And I think that's like the big interpretive thing of the movie, but I think it works of. In the movie, I take it as like, he's proud of everything up until the gates open and then he realizes, like, what. What he's let into the war.

[B]

Yeah, that's not necessary. I think he could have felt bad about some of the stuff they did when they were sacking the city because they did some stuff that was.

[C]

That's what I'm saying. It's like he's proud of, like, he's outsmarted them. He's won the war decisively, but the way that they win it is over the top. And I think you agree with that.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Like, they. They dishonored the temple to Athena. They.

[B]

In the book, it's even worse. Ajax, one of the warriors, rapes one of the priestesses at the foot of the statue of Athena. It's like raping a nun in a church. That's what happened.

[C]

And is there the same, like, you know, we have the. Like, we'll say, like, you know, women and children. Right. Like, and the movie plays up that, like, it's. It's women who are being killed in addition to the. The warriors. Yeah. Is that like a concept in Greece of, like, you're killing innocents as a part of your combat?

[B]

Not really. I mean, they doled out the women as slaves afterwards. And they killed Briseis on Achilles's grave. I think so she'd be with him in the afterlife. Like, they didn't exactly treat women nice.

[C]

Yeah, but there. But there are.

[A]

But in the ancient Greece, there was no, like, feeling bad about it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But. But you're saying that, like, there is punishment to the Greeks because of what Ajax did or what?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Athena. Legend has it that her statue was so disgusted by what it had seen that the head of the statue permanently turned, like, looked away from what was happening. And then she demanded the storm that comes afterwards and kills everybody.

[A]

Zeus.

[B]

I think it's Zeus or Poseidon. Anyway, little Ajax, the guy who had done the deed, they try to kill him and he survives and he jumps up on a rock and he's like, you guys can't kill me. And they're like, oh, yeah, we can. So we. They crack the rock he's standing on and he's swallowed by the sea. They. They specifically make sure that he deeds that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they punish all the other Trojans for not bringing justice to him because of what he had done. They chased him and he ran to the same statue where he had raped Cassandra. And they were unwilling.

[A]

It's Cassandra who goes back. Cassandra, The Cassandra who goes back to. As slave to Clytemnestra.

[B]

Yes. And the worst part is that she. She can see the future and knows what's coming, but no one believes her, so she knew it was going to happen to her. Poor Cassandra ran to the temple. He raped her there. And the. The Greeks chased little Ajax back to that same spot and he clung to the same statue that she was clinging to while he had done it. And the Greeks were unwilling to do the same thing to him that he did to Cassandra. And for that they paid.

[A]

And then the gods killed him.

[C]

Yeah, because I guess that's what, like, it's not a totally unreasonable read on, like, everything you're saying, Nolan takes further right to, like, make it like, bas. Odysseus, like, accepts the pain he's caused. Like, looks inward, like, just like. Yeah, he accepts that. And maybe that's the part that's modern, so to speak, but it's not, like, absent from the text that the Greeks went over the top and did wrong at the end of the Trojan War.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, they absolutely did.

[A]

But then to have the ending be just like ghost somewhere else, as opposed to, like, build it, like, own your home, fix your kingdom. It's just to, like, go somewhere else.

[B]

But the thing is that I don't know how they would have solved it in the film, because in the book they start fighting with the suitor's parents, and so. But who stops it is Athena. Athena literally comes down from the heavens and says, like, you guys are gonna

[A]

start a blood feud, right?

[C]

Yeah. Quit.

[B]

Quit this. So if they did, unless they wanted to bring in Thena as an Athena, as an actual tangible character, which they kind of toyed with through the whole film, you know, his only. Your only option is to kill all the suitors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that doesn't work. And so I think just saying, hey, leave and let.

[C]

I thought it worked.

[B]

I thought. I thought it was an okay way to end if you didn't want to bring in Athena as an actual, per, you know, character.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[C]

I like it.

[B]

Anyway, audience.

[C]

It's good.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

It's great. I mean, like, yes, there are departures, but the departures are well within, I think, like, interpretation. And then there is so much. So much that is accurate. And the reason I loved it so much is because the eeriness of the book is maintained. Right. The Cyclops is really creepy, and that's awesome. And Scylla isn't silly, but deeply disturbing. And I think that's right. And I think the way they did Circe is also deeply disturbing. And those things were, like, horrifying and unsettling. And these awesome things that Odysseus went through. And, man, did he capture it. And he. It could have been so bad. Like, I've seen really bad versions, and it was. It was awesome.

[A]

AJ you said that Nolan could direct a horror film.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I did. In the Odyssey, right?

[A]

Yeah. There was definitely those horrific moments. It was awesome.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The shooting the deer and having it be a dude. But yeah,

[A]

yeah, it was. It was very, very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also appreciate it. It's jarring for the first five minutes of the movie, but I appreciate that everybody didn't have, like, fake British accents. Yep. It is a little jarring to have Matt Dame be like, let's get off this beach.

[B]

I also like that they.

[A]

But you do get into, like, you. The fact that everyone is sort of not putting on some sort of pretense of European speak. They're just talking, like. Like, they're talking. They're starting. I. I liked it.

[B]

I love that they started with Telemachus, how the book started. They started in the same.

[C]

Right.

[B]

With him being inspired by Athena. And there were. Okay, so a lot of the controversy leading up to the movie is all of the historical inaccuracies. The boats are like Viking ships, and the armor is not accurate at all. And there would have been a lot more color because they were people that had color. And, like, anyway, there were a lot of little historical things. Or the armor on the Trojans was. Was that marble. What was happening there? I don't even know. But honestly, who care? There are Cyclops and six headed dragons.

[A]

This is what I was thinking of when people were complaining about historical and inaccur inaccuracies. All I could think was, was Thomas. Like, I could hear Thomas saying in my. In my head, like when you were talking about the elves in the new Lord of the Rings movie. It's like, I'm sorry. You're having historical inaccuracies about elves. You're having historical inaccuracies about Cyclops.

[B]

That's what I was thinking. I was like, who cares? It's all made up anyway. What history are we talking about?

[C]

That's really funny.

[B]

Anyway, on that note, we should probably. I think this is one of our longest episodes in a long time.

[C]

It was good.

[B]

Well deserved. Anyway, go see it. It's great. It gets the stamp of approval from Classical stuff. We're happy with it. Cool. So you can check us out on our Patreon. Patreon.com classicalstuff. You can check out our Twitter. Do we tweet anymore? Do you tweet anymore?

[A]

I tweet every now and then.

[B]

C L S S C A L Stuff. You can check out our website, classicalstuff.net and you find all our episodes there. Sorry about the weird late release last week for. For some reason the audio didn't upload. But it should be good now if it does and we upload it two places. So you can always. If you're a paying member, you can go see our episodes early on the patreon. It's like two bucks. You can email us, the guys@classical stuff.net. i think that's it, right? Yeah, that's the whole show. So we love you guys. See you later,

[C]

Sam.