EP 4 - The Quarterback and The Con Artist

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Quarterback and The Con Artist

Podcast: Johnathan Walton Media
Episode: EP 4 – "I'm Paying For It Every Day"
Date: September 24, 2025
Host: Johnathan Walton
Notable Voices: Eric Kramer (former NFL quarterback), Anna Durgan (Eric’s friend), Patrice Cameron (Eric’s aunt), Robert Espinosa (Griffin’s godfather), Tyler Dunn (NFL writer)

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Overview

This emotionally charged episode unpacks the devastating losses endured by former NFL quarterback Eric Kramer—beginning with the tragic heroin overdose of his son Griffin and cascading through the complex, painful relationships Kramer had with each of his parents. Through intimate storytelling, candid interviews, and personal reflection, the show explores themes of grief, parental ambition, trauma, and the long shadow of family dysfunction. Ultimately, the episode is a meditation on loss, mental health, survival, and the sometimes perilous cost of unyielding expectations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Griffin Kramer’s Overdose and Death

• Eric Kramer’s recollection of losing his 18-year-old son to a heroin overdose:
  • Griffin had quit drugs but relapsed when someone else injected him. He immediately overdosed, while the group present made no real attempt to save his life.
  • Instead of calling for help, Griffin was left to “sleep it off” at another teen's house (05:11), only to be discovered dead the next morning.
  • “He was laying on his back and that was and still is to this day, the only dead body I’ve ever seen.” – Eric Kramer (03:36)
  • The tragedy was compounded by the knowledge that there was a window of 9–11 hours when Griffin could have survived if help had been summoned (05:37).
• Four teenagers were charged with involuntary manslaughter; the primary instigator received five years’ probation and 90 days of community service (08:15).

2. The Psychological Spiral Following Griffin’s Death

• Eric’s grief seeded a powerful, worsening depression:
  • “That’s really what sent him into this spiral mentally.” – Tyler Dunn, NFL writer (08:43)
  • Within three years, Eric also lost both parents, describing the period as, “just all my attachments were leaving and there weren’t any coming in the opposite direction.” (09:16)
  • This led to a suicide attempt in 2015, which he miraculously survived (10:45).

3. A Target for Exploitation

• The episode turns chilling as it foreshadows the arrival of a manipulative woman who took advantage of Eric’s vulnerability after his attempt, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from him (11:27).
  • “You’ve got somebody who understands what Eric is going through, seizing upon that to steal hundreds of thousands of dollars.” – Tyler Dunn (11:27)

4. Eric’s Complicated Parental Relationships

With His Father, Carl Kramer

• Carl is portrayed as both deeply loving and deeply flawed—obsessively living through his son’s athletic development:
  • “The way I would describe my dad, he was well-intentioned, very well-intentioned, but he was not equipped for what he set out to do.” – Eric Kramer (14:36)
• Carl orchestrated Eric’s entire sports career—moving Eric between multiple schools to secure athletic opportunities.
  • “I think this was my dad’s progression of how I would get from middle school to high school to college pro. And he kind of had the map all dialed in.” – Eric Kramer (20:42)
• The family often struggled financially; Eric’s mother was the breadwinner, while Carl drifted between jobs (29:08).
• Their relationship further strained when Eric became a successful pro and Carl sought public sympathy as homeless, which created a media scandal (32:04).
• In later life, Eric understood Carl’s own history of abandonment, which reshaped his perspective:
  • “My recollections of my dad, I have to now put that into context.” – Eric Kramer (34:48)
  • “Nobody comes out of the womb, good or bad, they just come out...Is the family you’re coming into set up for you to help get there? And in his case, no.” – Eric Kramer (34:58)

With His Mother

• Eric’s mother is characterized by emotional distance:
  • “So my mom, for me was mostly somebody I feared. I wasn’t really close with her growing up.” – Eric Kramer (35:59)
• He recognizes that she felt trapped in her marriage and parenthood:
  • “I think for my mom, it must have felt for her like a prison sentence...like she made one bad choice and now I’m paying for it every day.” – Eric Kramer (36:25)

5. Parental Ambition, Trauma, and Isolation

• Eric’s upbringing, orchestrated by a father obsessed with his athletic future, led to constant school changes and disrupted relationships, leaving Eric feeling like he never fit in (19:28).
• The paradox of “success”: Despite being guided into the NFL, Eric’s journey was filled with emotional hardship and loneliness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Grief and Love
  “It’s like reading the last word of a book. It’s not like he’s going to wake up. And one of the things that kept gnawing at me was, you know, did he really know how much I loved him?”
  – Eric Kramer, reflecting on Griffin’s death (04:00)

• On Depression
  “When depression strikes, it’s not like there’s a knock at the door or there’s not a phone call saying, hey, I’m, I’m on my way. It just, sort of, there it is. And it...has you looking through a keyhole and you lose all perspective on what used to be Life.”
  – Eric Kramer (10:19)

• Parental Blind Faith
  “Without his belief in me, I can sit here right now and tell you none of this would have happened without him having literally blind faith.”
  – Eric Kramer (17:42)

• Understanding the Past
  “The unfortunate and the tragic part about my dad’s life was that his own mother left when my dad was right around two years. And so apparently when my dad’s mom left, his dad shipped him off to grow up with my dad’s aunt’s family in Tulsa, Oklahoma.... So not only had he been abandoned by his mom, not only had he been abandoned by his dad, the dad he did grow up with wasn’t a dad. The mom he grew up with wasn’t a mom.”
  – Eric Kramer (33:41/34:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Griffin’s Overdose and Aftermath: 02:32 – 08:15
• Eric’s Mental Health Spiral & Loss of Parents: 08:52 – 10:45
• Con Woman Introduction: 11:27 – 11:37
• Eric’s Relationship with Father: 14:36 – 21:55
• Family Financial Struggles: 28:52 – 29:59
• NFL Success and Media Scandal: 31:13 – 33:08
• Insights on Father’s Background: 33:41 – 34:58
• Relationship with Mother: 35:59 – 36:36

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a raw, honest exploration of the profound ways trauma, loss, and family dynamics shape lives. Eric Kramer’s journey—from the heights of NFL fame through the depths of personal tragedy and mental illness—is told with compassion and unflinching honesty. The discussion leaves listeners with a deep empathy for lives marked by both extraordinary achievement and heartbreaking loss, echoing the show’s promise to reveal stories of “love, loss and the ultimate triumph of the human spirit.”

Transcript

[Jonathan Walton]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations from unsolved mysteries to unexplained phenomena. From comedy gold to relationship fails. Amazon Music's got the most ad free top podcasts included with prime. Because the only thing that should interrupt your listening is, well, nothing. Download the Amazon music app today. What do you think makes the perfect snack? Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

[Anna Durgan]

Could you be more specific?

[Jonathan Walton]

When it's cravinient. Okay. Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am pm.

[Eric Kramer]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Anna Durgan]

Crave, which is anything from am pm.

[Jonathan Walton]

What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience. Am PM Too much Good stuff. This series deals with troubling topics including suicide, drug overdosing and dependent adult abuse. If you or someone you know is struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, call or text 988-right- now and speak with a counselor for free. Previously on the Quarterback and the Con Artist. Oh, Griffin was the life of the party.

[Eric Kramer]

You know, he would just say things that just to be funny, you know.

[Jonathan Walton]

And they sometimes it would just be awkward. And Eric Kramer's son, Griffin grows up battling all kinds of demons, leaving him isolated and struggling to find true friends.

[Eric Kramer]

And I think the inner psychological torture he must have gone through is just heartbreaking.

[Jonathan Walton]

I mean, friends are everything at that age. Having a group of friends, friends in a social circle and going to parties and being invited and it's everything.

[Eric Kramer]

Everything.

[Jonathan Walton]

Griffin turns to drugs to cope and then successfully quits. But in late October of 2011, a relapse forever changes the trajectory of his life.

[Anna Durgan]

Griffin had already been cleaned. He hadn't had any drugs in his system or whatever. And this kid just shot him up with a dose of heroin and he.

[Jonathan Walton]

Couldn'T even inject it himself. He was scared of needles.

[Eric Kramer]

Griffin had an immediate reaction to that heroin.

[Jonathan Walton]

And the drug addict he's with panics.

[Anna Durgan]

I think he was more concerned about getting in trouble because he had heroin than he was saving Griffin's life. Jonathan.

[Jonathan Walton]

I'm Jonathan Walton and this is the quarterback and the con artist. Episode 4 I'm Paying For it every day. Outside a suburban home in Agoura Hills, California, a death investigation is underway. But inside that home, a father is saying goodbye to his son.

[Eric Kramer]

He was laying on his back and that was and still is to this day, the only dead body I've ever seen.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric Kramer tearfully remembers kneeling over the lifeless body of his 18 year old son, Griffin, realizing there's no going back, realizing Griffin is gone.

[Eric Kramer]

It's like reading the last word of a book. It's not like he's going to wake up. And one of the things that kept gnawing at me was, you know, did he really know how much I loved him?

[Jonathan Walton]

The pain of losing a child is indescribable. And just how 18 year old Griffin Kramer winds up lying dead on that floor in a house that's not even his is a harrowing tale of gross negligence, ineptitude and a lack of human decency. Four teenagers are charged tonight with involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of.

[Anna Durgan]

Griffin Kramer, a quarterback on the Thousand Oaks High School football team and the son of former NFL quarterback Eric Kramer.

[Jonathan Walton]

Those teenagers are the ones in the park witnessing Griffin overdose that night on October 29, 2011. And instead of calling 911 or taking him to the hospital, one of them puts an unconscious Griffin Kramer in his car and drives him to his own house in Agoura Hills.

[Anna Durgan]

Apparently dragged him up to his bedroom at his house, left him there to quote, unquote, sleep it off.

[Jonathan Walton]

That's Anna Durgin again, Eric Kramer's close friend.

[Anna Durgan]

And apparently that's how he had passed away at David Nuremberg's house. Instead of them calling 911, taking him to the hospital, there were so many things they could have done.

[Jonathan Walton]

Oh, the coroner said that they had 11 hours or nine hours to save.

[Eric Kramer]

Him, something like that.

[Jonathan Walton]

Griffin's younger brother, Dylan.

[Eric Kramer]

So they left him, went to a party.

[Jonathan Walton]

Yeah, he had skid marks on the back of his head from being drug up a driveway.

[Eric Kramer]

And so he would have had to physically drag Griffin, Eric Kramer with his feet or something on the ground into his house, laid him down on his back, still didn't call anybody and went out to another party.

[Jonathan Walton]

And when that 19 year old gets back from that party, he enters his bedroom and goes to sleep. And he assumes Griffin lying on the floor, is asleep too. And when he wakes up the next morning, he tries to wake Griffin up, but Griffin is unresponsive and that's when help is finally called. 91 1, what is your emergency? And later that morning, a sheriff's deputy calls Eric and takes him to see his son. So we drove over there and Eric was already there. That's Griffin's godfather, Robert Espinosa, who rushes over as soon as he hears the news. I walked in the room and Griffin's laying on the ground and Eric is at his head laying with him, just bawling. Eric holds his son and hugs him for the very last time and says goodbye. It's an extremely difficult moment for him to recall now as he fights back tears.

[Eric Kramer]

So I just remember, I don't know, sitting next to him or in some way thinking back about, you know, just things in his life. And this is a very horrific day.

[Jonathan Walton]

A day Robert Espinosa will never forget. You know, Gersha was my godson and he's, it was obvious he was passed and to see your best friend there, just, you don't you know what to do? There was nothing I could do. I couldn't console or do anything. It was just very heart wrenching to see. And then after you hear the details of how it happened and what happened soon after, it was just, man, it didn't have to happen like this. So yeah, it was, it was hard. The 19 year old responsible pleads no contest and is convicted of involuntary manslaughter in November of 2012. He gets five years probation and 90 days community service.

[Anna Durgan]

Eric lost Griffin to the heroin overdose.

[Jonathan Walton]

And I know that that caused Eric just unbelievable pain. NFL writer Tyler Dunn, that, that, that hurt more than just about anything he had been been through at that point of his life.

[Anna Durgan]

And remember as a football player, he's.

[Jonathan Walton]

Getting clobbered game in and game out.

[Anna Durgan]

Played through so many injuries and suffered.

[Jonathan Walton]

Who knows how many concussions, who knows.

[Anna Durgan]

How many sub concussive hits.

[Jonathan Walton]

Tyler interviewed Eric for his go long podcast.

[Eric Kramer]

But from what I remember in our.

[Anna Durgan]

Conversations, like when he lost his son, that that's really what sent him into this spiral mentally.

[Jonathan Walton]

The death of Griffin Kramer forever changes Eric and it becomes the first of three life shattering events that push him to the brink. He was going through a lot, you know, with his mom and his dad and then his son. It was like this domino effect. So Griffin dies in October of 2011 and not long after that, both Eric's mother and father die too.

[Eric Kramer]

My mom found out she had stage four uterine cancer. And then eventually in July of 2012 she passed away. And it was right about that time where My dad had some untreated acid reflux that eventually turned into esophageal cancer. And to see that happen over about a three year period with Griffin and then my mom and my dad and was a lot, man. It was a lot of relatively short amount of time. Just all my attachments were leaving and there weren't any coming in the opposite direction.

[Jonathan Walton]

And you were already dealing with depression and stuff for years.

[Eric Kramer]

Years.

[Jonathan Walton]

And now these punches just keep coming.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah. So when depression strikes, it's not like there's a knock at the door or there's not a phone call saying, hey, I'm, I'm on my way. It just sort of there it is. And it. In a very short amount of time, it has you looking through a keyhole and you lose all perspective on what used to be Life.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric Kramer's 20 year on and off battle with depression, then losing his son Griffin, then losing his mom and having his dad terminally ill in hospice care. It all conspires to flip a switch in Eric's brain, causing him to put a gun to his head and pull the trigger that day back in August of 2015. But when Eric miraculously survives, everyone in his life is thrilled and their guard is down. And that paves the way for a tall, blonde con woman to rob him blind. That's what's really chilling about this all is NFL writer Tyler Dunn is you've.

[Anna Durgan]

Got somebody who understands what Eric Kramer.

[Jonathan Walton]

Is going through, seizing upon that to.

[Anna Durgan]

Steal hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Jonathan Walton]

And it just, just goes to show he needed a, he needed a hero to kind of swoop into his life.

[Anna Durgan]

And thankfully he, he had wanted.

[Jonathan Walton]

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[Anna Durgan]

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[Anna Durgan]

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[Anna Durgan]

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[Jonathan Walton]

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[Eric Kramer]

The way I would describe my dad, he was well intentioned, very well intentioned, but he was not equipped for what he set out to do.

[Anna Durgan]

He was very charming, very good looking. Eric has spit an image of him, but different personality than his dad.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric's aunt, Patrice Cameron.

[Anna Durgan]

His dad was very ingratiating, very personable, very flirtatious with women. A lot of women fell for him, including my sister. But he wasn't a true husband, let's put it that way. He was a player, but he Kind of got by on his looks and charm.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric writes candidly about his father, Carl Kramer, in his book, the Ultimate Comeback. At times it's sad and heartbreaking to read, but other times it's laugh out loud funny. I mean, Eric's dad was a character like none other. Part SNL sketch and part leading man. In the book, your dad comes across as this lovable, yep, fun, exciting, hard, driven guy who, I get the impression half the time you were thrilled he was your dad and half the time you were not.

[Eric Kramer]

I would say that's pretty accurate. I'd say the thrilled part came more when I was younger. As I got older and my high school years, he was something of an embarrassment.

[Jonathan Walton]

That's because from the day Eric Kramer is born on November 6, 1964, in Encino, California, his dad, Carl, is singularly obsessed and driven by an inexplicable sense of urgency to make his son Eric a professional athlete.

[Anna Durgan]

His father got him at a very, very young age into sports, into football, into baseball, basketball. Eric's aunt, Patrice Cameron, Eric's father kind of guided this whole sports thing. He kind of lived through his son to the point of just overbearing and hanging out and trying to influence the coaches.

[Jonathan Walton]

Looking back, it feels like Eric's father, Carl, knew something that no one else had any inkling of, especially Eric. Did you become a professional football player because you were so talented and this was clearly what you were meant to do, or did you become a professional football player because your father literally willed you to be it? You weren't the most naturally gifted athlete on the field, and yet look at the life you've had.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

Do you credit you? I guess you got to credit.

[Eric Kramer]

I have to, yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

I mean, he was obsessed.

[Eric Kramer]

Without his belief in me, I can sit here right now and tell you none of this would have happened without him having literally blind faith.

[Jonathan Walton]

I just reading the book again, it moved me so much to tears in parts. He believed in you so much. It felt to me at times reading, he saw the future and he was just headed for it. He saw your future and he was just pushing you in that direction. It just feels like when you were born, your dad saw a psychic who said, your son's going to be a famous NFL player. And he's like, okay. And then he just tried to make it happen or knew it was going to happen. And. And it. To anyone looking in the moment, he seems crazy.

[Eric Kramer]

And I'm sure I will guarantee you that many people told him, stop.

[Jonathan Walton]

Oh, I can only imagine.

[Eric Kramer]

And you are wasting your time.

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, he wasn't.

[Eric Kramer]

He wasn't.

[Jonathan Walton]

Look at the career you've had.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

Look at all the teams you played for. Look at all the adventures you had. Look at all the money you made. Like, again, by any metric, you're a huge success. But Eric's road to success and to the NFL is rough and lonely. And the paradox here is that as much as Eric's dad leads him in that direction, the rigor of being led is not without its own trauma and misery. For starters, Eric has a lot of trouble making friends growing up because his dad is obsessively and strategically moving him from school to school to school.

[Anna Durgan]

I'm amazed at, when I think back of all the schools he went to.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric Zant, Patrice Cameron, how his father.

[Anna Durgan]

Moved him around to these different schools to get him a better chance of playing. I can't even imagine going from school to school at that as a teenager and ever fitting in. I don't know that Eric ever felt he fit in.

[Eric Kramer]

The first elementary school I went to was Melvin Elementary School in Reseda. Then we moved and I went to Fulbright Elementary. I was at Montclair for two years, then Valley Christian for one semester, then St. Denis for two years, then Burroughs for three semesters. Like the heck is that?

[Jonathan Walton]

It's a lot of moving around for a kid.

[Eric Kramer]

And not in one of those. Were they in the neighborhood. So with each school, they got progressively further away.

[Jonathan Walton]

From where you lived.

[Eric Kramer]

From where I actually lived, yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

You went to a lot of different schools?

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

Why?

[Eric Kramer]

I think this was my dad's progression of how I would get from middle school to high school to college pro. And he kind of had the map all dialed in.

[Jonathan Walton]

And was he telling you this at the time?

[Eric Kramer]

No.

[Jonathan Walton]

No. He was just pulling you out of this school, Pulling you to that school, pulling you out of this school, putting you to that school.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

And most of those schools are relatively small and private.

[Anna Durgan]

Competition is tougher in the public schools than it is the private schools.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric's aunt, Patrice Cameron.

[Anna Durgan]

So he went to a Catholic school and then a Christian school at one time.

[Jonathan Walton]

So you think that was the calculus? It would be easier for Eric to stand out as an athlete in a private school than a public school.

[Eric Kramer]

Possibly, but I wasn't that good.

[Jonathan Walton]

Regardless, Eric's dad pushes and pushes and pushes his son to be better. He's at most of Eric's practices and all of his games and even coaches on some of the teams Eric plays for while taking copious notes and incessantly drilling his son on technique, and he.

[Eric Kramer]

Was obsessed about teaching certain fundamentals as he saw as he saw them to be.

[Jonathan Walton]

And even when Carl Kramer is not the actual coach at Eric's games, he still tries to be. In a roundabout way.

[Eric Kramer]

When I was 12 and in a.

[Jonathan Walton]

Baseball All Star tournament, Eric is reading now from his book, the Ultimate Comeback.

[Eric Kramer]

We were taking pre game infield practice when dad called me over to the fence. Tell your coach you need to pitch the second game, not the first, he insisted. Why? Because if you win the first game, there's nobody good enough to pitch the second one. Go tell him now. No, I protested. I'm not telling my coach what to do. You tell him right now, dad ordered, gritting his teeth and waving his finger at me. Our argument escalated into a humiliating scene in front of my teammates and their parents. I threw down my glove, sprinted to an empty field across the way and and sobbed alone in the dugout. My outburst caused my coach to scratch me from the lineup altogether. There would be no second game for anyone.

[Jonathan Walton]

It's abundantly clear to anyone watching that Eric's dad is just way too involved and way too invested emotionally in all of his son's sports endeavors. Baseball, basketball, and especially football.

[Anna Durgan]

His dad believed in him. Anna Durgan your kids. You live through your kids. And maybe his dad wanted that opportunity. I don't know. But his dad did believe in him. More so than anybody else.

[Jonathan Walton]

More so than Eric believed in himself.

[Anna Durgan]

Exactly.

[Jonathan Walton]

At the time.

[Anna Durgan]

Exactly. Well, think about it. Here he is. Carl is shifting Eric from school to school, trying to get him in the, you know, first position of quarterback. Eric became the backup quarterback at John Burroughs High School in Burbank. And then he never really paid quarterback at all. He was a safety.

[Jonathan Walton]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Let's explore the events that shaped the Middle Ages. Honestly, Claire, I didn't finish the research, but I did switch to T Mobile with their new Family Freedom offer.

[Anna Durgan]

That's not how we tell the story.

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, I'm writing a new chapter by leaving ATT and creating a turning point with T Mobile. They paid off my family's four phones up to $3200 and gave us four new phones on the house.

[Anna Durgan]

History in the making.

[Jonathan Walton]

Introducing Family Freedom, Our lowest Cost will switch our biggest family savings all on America's largest 5G network. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com familyfreedom. Up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phones via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement, eg Apple iPhone 16, 128 gigabyte $829.99 eligible trade in eg iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due. If you pay off earlier, contact T Mobile. And that's actually when Ana first meets Eric at John Burroughs High School in Burbank, Even though it's 25 miles away from where Eric lives in Canoga Park. Eric doesn't qualify to go to John Burroughs. It's out of his district. But his dad gets him in there for a very strategic reason.

[Anna Durgan]

We had the best football team in the San Fernando Valley. We went to the CIF champions every year. Jon Burroughs dominated in football.

[Jonathan Walton]

And that's why Eric's dad put him there.

[Anna Durgan]

Absolutely. And we did go to the CIF championships in our senior year.

[Jonathan Walton]

And to get Eric into John Burroughs legally, his dad actually moves him in with a friend of his who legitimately lives in an apartment in Burbank, even though this friend doesn't really have enough room for Eric.

[Eric Kramer]

And I basically slept on the floor in the living room on, like, a sleeping bag.

[Jonathan Walton]

Wow.

[Anna Durgan]

I lived right across the street.

[Jonathan Walton]

Anna Durgan. He was only living there to qualify to get into that school that had that football program that his dad thought would be advantageous for his quote unquote burgeoning career. And that's when you met him. Did you know that's why he was there?

[Anna Durgan]

No.

[Jonathan Walton]

You just thought he lived there?

[Anna Durgan]

No, I knew he didn't live there.

[Jonathan Walton]

Do you know he was sleeping on the floor?

[Anna Durgan]

Yeah, I was. Hello. So was. I was. I was on the floor with him sometimes. But I'm just saying.

[Jonathan Walton]

After John Burrows, Eric goes on to attend Pierce College in Los Angeles playing baseball and football. But then Eric decides to quit baseball and focus solely on football. And his dad does not take the news well.

[Eric Kramer]

And he jumped up and put his hand fist through the drywall.

[Jonathan Walton]

He punched a hole on the wall.

[Eric Kramer]

Upon learning I was no longer going to play baseball at Pierce College, he was so angry, like I was destroying his dream of me playing baseball.

[Jonathan Walton]

Because in his mind, he wants you to go pro. And he figures this is one less opportunity. Now, right now you're not a baseball player, so we can't pursue baseball.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Walton]

So Eric's dad sort of doubles down on his football career.

[Eric Kramer]

He was a very invasive person. So he didn't just want to come to the games.

[Jonathan Walton]

He wanted to come to Eric's practices too. At Pierce College, all of Eric's practices, I mean, these are college age kids on that field. No other parents are there, but Eric's dad is watching him intently from the stands and taking notes. And Eric begs him out of embarrassment to stop coming to his practices. And Carl assures Eric he'll stop coming, but he actually continues showing up, hiding and peeking at Eric practicing from behind a group of trees.

[Eric Kramer]

Like I remember saying to him on more than one occasion, I said, do you realize, are there any other dads.

[Anna Durgan]

Up there that you talk with?

[Eric Kramer]

Because just so you know, there aren't.

[Jonathan Walton]

He's by himself.

[Eric Kramer]

Which means, like, if you're here, where aren't you? At work. So I'm wondering, like, did you even have a job?

[Anna Durgan]

Carl went through many jobs. Never could seem to hang on to a job very long. Eric's aunt, Patrice Cameron, My sister was busy keeping a roof over their heads. Really. She did, she worked. She had the full time job.

[Jonathan Walton]

Was she the breadwinner of the family?

[Anna Durgan]

Yes, she was.

[Eric Kramer]

Wow.

[Jonathan Walton]

Growing up, Eric doesn't realize that his dad is frequently unemployed. But looking back, it's obvious.

[Eric Kramer]

So I was a latchkey kid, right? So I remember there was many times, like in the summer, I'm just at home, and he'd come home and he'd take the phone off the hook and he said, if your mom asked, tell I wasn't here.

[Jonathan Walton]

Eric witnesses a lot of stuff like this. Growing up with his mom and dad.

[Eric Kramer]

Spending most of his time hiding.

[Jonathan Walton]

From her.

[Eric Kramer]

From her? Yeah. Or whatever he's doing, he's hiding it from her.

[Jonathan Walton]

Because Carl Kramer was more often than not in between jobs.

[Anna Durgan]

I just don't think he had a good work ethic. Eric's aunt, Patrice Cameron, he would get these sales jobs. He had one good job with a sprinkler manufacturer, but he was more of a friend to this owner. And the owner was older. Carl was young and good looking. And so they kind of palled around together. And so he paid Carl very well. But then the business went belly up and then Carl had to go find a regular job, which he went through many. But with a sales job, you get a little stipend or something before you know, you get for a couple of months. And then if you don't produce, they let you go. So that's. That kept happening. But I don't think if it didn't come easy to him, I don't think he pursued it. So my sister could never depend on a salary from him. Not that he wasn't capable of it. I just think he didn't particularly want to work a 9 to 5 job. His focus was Eric and guiding his success through sports.

[Jonathan Walton]

Sadly, though, by the time Eric makes it to the NFL, he and his dad are becoming distant. In 1991, Eric is playing for the Detroit Lions, and in the midst of leading the Lions to a huge victory over the Dallas Cowboys. I mean, Eric is on the. During this game drive, Eric Kramer back.

[Eric Kramer]

Looking, finds Willie Green Touchdown 32.

[Jonathan Walton]

Throwing Guided missile precision passes Kramer, 341.

[Eric Kramer]

Yards on a day, three touchdowns.

[Jonathan Walton]

Unbelievable. When the Lions win, everyone in the sports world is celebrating quarterback Eric Kramer, and he's riding high, when all of.

[Eric Kramer]

A sudden, I get a phone call from Bill Koenest, who was the media relations director.

[Jonathan Walton]

Apparently, Eric's dad, who he hasn't spoken to in a while at this point, contacts Pat o' Brien at CBS Sports with a juicy story that while his son, Eric Kramer, is out becoming an NFL superstar, his dad is claiming to be homeless. The Lions media director tells Eric that.

[Eric Kramer]

Apparently your dad is living in the garage of a high school football coach and is making it look like you have abandoned him.

[Jonathan Walton]

And that's exactly what Eric's dad tells CBS Sports. And Eric is just stunned. I mean, he's at the pinnacle of his career on the heels of a celebrated victory over the formidable Dallas Cowboys, just one. One win away from making it to the 1992 Super Bowl. And now his dad is grabbing news headlines for being homeless and abandoned.

[Eric Kramer]

That was something I had to deal with because you.

[Jonathan Walton]

You bailed him out a lot out of things. You gave him money to save his house, but then he used it on something else and lost the house anyway. Yeah, it takes Eric years to build back a meaningful relationship with his father after that, but he does. And near the end of his dad's life, the two get closer than they've ever been. And Eric uncovers a lot of stuff about his dad's upbringing that he didn't know. And it helps him understand why his father was the way he was.

[Eric Kramer]

The unfortunate and the tragic part about my dad's life was that his own mother left when my dad was right around two years. And so apparently when my dad's mom left, his dad shipped him off to grow up with my dad's aunt's family in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[Jonathan Walton]

And as you can imagine, baby Carl Kramer is not a priority for that family.

[Eric Kramer]

So not only had he been abandoned by his mom, not only had he been abandoned by his dad, the dad he did grow up with wasn't a dad. The mom he grew up with wasn't a mom.

[Jonathan Walton]

So Eric's dad as a child is raised in relegation, always feeling like an outsider, always feeling like he doesn't belong, always feeling less than. And learning all of this profoundly changes Eric's understanding of his father.

[Eric Kramer]

My recollections of my dad, I have to now put that into context.

[Jonathan Walton]

Doesn't that just freaking explain everything?

[Eric Kramer]

It does.

[Jonathan Walton]

How could he have been any different?

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah, it couldn't have. And so, you know, nobody comes out of the womb, good or bad, they just come out. We're all given the capacity. Most everybody wants to be good. But is the family you're coming into set up for you to help get there? You know, and in his case, no. My dad was passionate, well intentioned, loving in a way that he knew how to be. He was also flawed, but it wasn't like he was shown the ABCs of life by anybody. So it was for him, make it up as you go and do the best you can with what you've got.

[Jonathan Walton]

But as unconventional as Eric's relationship with his dad was, his relationship with his mom was equally unusual in a whole other way.

[Eric Kramer]

So my mom, for me was mostly somebody I feared.

[Jonathan Walton]

Which is odd for a son to say about his mother.

[Eric Kramer]

I wasn't really close with her growing up. She didn't craft out a bunch of time for me. You know what I mean? I don't remember her and I going anywhere together. I think for my mom, it must have felt for her like a prison.

[Jonathan Walton]

Sentence, like she did something wrong and now she's here.

[Eric Kramer]

Yeah, like she made one bad choice and now I'm paying for it every day.

[Jonathan Walton]

If you or someone you know is struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, call or text 988-right- now and speak with a counselor for free. If you're enjoying the Quarterback and the Con Artist, click that share button right now and text it to your friends and family. And if you can, leave us a five star review. The Quarterback and the Con Artist is produced, written and hosted by me, Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Media Executive producers Eric Kramer and Anna Durgan. Audio engineering by Justin Longer Beam editing and sound design by Hansdale She Legal counsel provided by Ken Sterling from Sterling Media Law. We've got a lot of incredible stories in the works at Jonathan Walton Media. So make sure you subscribe and keep an ear out.

[Anna Durgan]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard, and I'm very.

[Jonathan Walton]

Excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number.

[Anna Durgan]

Thousands of people try to call.

[Jonathan Walton]

You talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.