Introducing 'The Knife: When Trust Becomes a Trap'

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Johnathan Walton Media – Introducing 'The Knife: When Trust Becomes a Trap'

Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Johnathan Walton
Guest Podcast Featured: The Knife, hosted by Hannah Smith & Pasha Eaton
Central Narrative: The tragic true story of Donna Nelson, an Australian mother and community advocate, imprisoned in Japan for unwittingly transporting drugs after being manipulated in an online romance scam.

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Episode Overview

This special episode introduces listeners to an astonishing true-crime story featured on The Knife podcast: "When Trust Becomes a Trap." It traces how Donna Nelson—a devoted mother, grandmother, and anti-drug activist—was lured by a romance scammer, manipulated into traveling internationally, and ultimately entrapped in an elaborate drug smuggling scheme that landed her in a Japanese prison. Through intimate interviews with her daughters Ashley and Crystal, the hosts unravel the emotional impact on Donna's family, the sophisticated methods of modern scammers, and offer urgent warnings for all who use dating apps.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Donna Nelson's Background and Search for Love

• Donna, an Indigenous woman and mother of five from Western Australia, devoted herself to her community and helping others, particularly those affected by substance abuse, following a tough divorce.
• After years of single life, Donna decided to try online dating, drawing encouragement from her daughters’ own successful online relationships.
• She first met up with a man in Oklahoma, forming a friendship, which reinforced her belief that cross-continental online dating could be safe ([05:53] Crystal).

2. Meeting “Kelly”—The Online Relationship and Grooming

• Donna met "Kelly" (later revealed to also use the name Rex), a man claiming to live in Japan and have adult children.
• Kelly spent a year building trust through frequent video calls and daily conversations, always steering communication away from her family, a subtle red flag overlooked at the time ([09:41] Crystal).
• He claimed to own a worldwide couture business and spoke of marrying Donna, emphasizing his alignment with her values and life stage.

Quote:

“This was the first time that she was finding somebody who needed nothing from her. So she was really excited about that.”
— Crystal ([12:28])

3. Escalation: Plans to Meet & Early Red Flags

• Over two years, Donna and Kelly’s plans to meet in person kept falling through as Kelly rescheduled flights and never produced tickets until the last minute.
• Flights to Hong Kong, Brazil, and eventually Japan were mentioned, often under the pretense of his demanding work and family abroad.
• The unpredictability caused Donna’s family concern, though Kelly cleverly tried to calm them by saying he’d welcome any family member joining Donna.

Quote:

“He would be willing to have one or several of us go over with her if we’re so worried. So that we feel more comfortable about her going… it didn’t really bring any red flags.”
— Crystal ([14:02])

4. The Fateful Trip: Missing in Tokyo

• After months of delay and excuses, Donna finally received a ticket and, with little time to prepare, left for Japan through Laos.
• Upon landing in Tokyo, Donna went quiet—a major red flag given her usual constant contact with family.
• Her checked bag was never picked up from the airport; the daughters initiated a missing person report and consular case ([29:36] Ashley).

Quote:

“It was very out of the ordinary that we didn’t hear from Mum… there were constant conversations and video calls all throughout the day.”
— Crystal ([28:56])

5. The Scam Revealed: Drugs, Suitcase Switch, and Arrest

• During a layover in Laos, Kelly’s “business partner” provided Donna with a specific suitcase, claiming it was for his business.
• The suitcase had expertly hidden methamphetamine—nothing traceable to Donna, and the deception was complete.
• Donna was arrested at Tokyo airport for drug smuggling—a shock to her anti-drug family and community ([41:36] Ashley).

Quote:

“She’s always dedicated herself to people who need… always been the voice for people who don’t have a voice or aren’t comfortable speaking up.”
— Ashley ([05:53])

6. Legal Hell: Detention, Trial, and the Aftermath

• Donna was held for nearly two years (Jan 2023–Nov 2024) without family contact until her testimony at trial ([46:10] Ashley).
• The Japanese court recognized Donna as a victim and reduced her sentence to six years (from a potential 20), but still held her responsible for ignoring red flags ([48:11] Ashley).
• The trauma extended to the entire family, especially Donna’s grandchildren, who were shielded from the truth as best as possible ([56:40] Crystal).

Quote:

“She had 1.8 kilograms of methamphetamine. And that’s where it was really confusing, because we know Mum…and you know, the person who raises you…”
— Ashley ([40:11])

7. Ongoing Impact and Broader Warnings

• Donna’s physical and mental health in prison is closely monitored via intermittent consular reports.
• The family discovered evidence that Kelly was running the same scam with at least two other women; a Hong Kong prison chaplain confirmed several drug-mule victims encountered the same man ([54:26] Ashley, [54:36] Crystal).
• Legal avenues have been exhausted; appeals denied due to low chances and inability to submit new evidence.
• Hosts and guests reflect on the prevalence of elder-targeted scams, the sophisticated manipulation now possible via tech, and the particular dangers women face in international romance frauds.
• FBI stats: In 2023, US elder fraud victims lost $3.4 billion with average losses over $30,000 ([69:14] Pasha).

Quote:

“Seeing someone on FaceTime or… any sort of visual…doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re credible… You can get on FaceTime and you can still be lying about everything.”
— Pasha ([63:52])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ashley on regret and shock:

  “How did this happen? Because we know Mum… her life’s work has been… helping the people affected by drugs…” ([40:11])

• Crystal on discovering the suitcase deception:

  “The suitcase had like little grooves… the drugs were like finger-shaped little lengths in plastic and they were in the grooves. So… you’re not going to feel what’s in those grooves.” ([45:12])

• Ashley on the system’s response:

  “They admitted that Mum was the victim of a romance scam… but …she ignored red flags as well.” ([48:15])

• Crystal’s heartbreak:

  “She just cried and uttered, ‘but my grandchildren…’ I think the thought of, you know, six years for such little people, they’re going to be completely different people by the time she gets to see them.” ([49:01])

• On strategies for communicating risk:

  “The red flags to look out for…are always changing…none of that actually ended up being very relevant in this case because the red flags were so different.”
  — Hannah ([64:29])

• On the scale of the scam:

  “There were several inmates there who said that this was the person that they dealt with. And they’re in prison … for drug smuggling.”
  — Crystal ([54:36])

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:10 | First recounting of Donna’s disappearance and the airport lie | | 06:25 | Backstory: Donna’s search for love after a lifetime of giving | | 09:00–13:28 | Details of relationship with “Kelly,” and how grooming began | | 19:17 | Initial plans to meet—constant changes, escalation in urgency | | 27:44–29:36 | Donna goes missing in Tokyo; family launches search | | 41:36–43:48 | Layover in Laos—suitcase handoff and manipulation | | 46:10 | Almost two years in detention prior to trial | | 48:11 | Japanese verdict: acknowledgment of scam, but imposition of sentence | | 52:13 | Donna’s projected release: February 2029 | | 54:26–55:28 | Discovery of more victims; confirmation from inmates/chaplain | | 56:40–59:43 | The impact on grandchildren, creative ways to maintain family ties| | 63:52 | Key warning: FaceTime doesn’t guarantee credibility | | 69:14 | FBI stats: Staggering elder fraud losses |

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Key Takeaways

• Romance scams are increasingly sophisticated, using technology to build deep trust over years and manipulate victims both emotionally and logistically—even via video calls.
• Donna’s case is emblematic of a wider international crime problem—elder drug mule scams—where victims unknowingly become part of drug trafficking.
• Red flags aren’t always obvious or the same as traditional scam signs; trusting, cautious people can still be conned.
• Victims and their families face long-term, global consequences, while perpetrators often evade justice.
• Fraud against elders is rampant—with billions lost annually in the US alone; education, vigilance, and support networks are vital.
• Emotional support is critical for victimized families, especially when young children are involved and the truth must be shielded from them.

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Additional Highlights

• Acts of kindness: An American woman in Tokyo, having never met Donna before, now regularly visits her in prison to provide comfort and update Donna’s family on her wellbeing ([63:01] Hannah, [63:26] Pasha).
• Advice: Never accept, carry, or transport an item (suitcase, package, etc.) across borders for someone you’ve only met online. Don’t rush into urgent international travel arrangements at another’s demand, and always consult trusted friends or authorities if you sense something unusual ([68:00] Hannah & Pasha).
• Acknowledgment: The hosts stress the shame associated with falling for scams should not silence victims—these crimes prey on human connection, and their reach is global and ever-evolving.

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Final Reflection:
This episode delivers a sobering and empathetic exploration of romance and drug-mule scams, seen through the harrowing experiences of Donna Nelson’s close-knit family. It serves as both a gripping narrative and a public warning, masterfully balancing emotional depth with practical advice—underlining the need for vigilance, compassion, and systems built to protect, not punish, the innocent.

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For more detailed stories and to follow the case, listeners are encouraged to follow ‘The Knife’ podcast.

Transcript

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[Narrator/Host Introduction]

have I got a crazy con story for all you singles out there meeting people on apps, falling for someone you meet on one of those dating apps can land you in a foreign prison for years with no hope of release. This story comes to us from the Knife Podcast, hosted and reported by the Incredible Hannah Smith and Pasha Eaton. They interview family members of this poor woman trapped in prison because the guy she meets online scams her and she gets left holding the bag. It's a different kind of scam that no one sees coming. This story has a slow build, but my God, the ending is mind blowing. And for more crazy stories like this, just search the Knife wherever you get your podcasts. Now I turn you over to Hannah and Patia and the knife. Episode 35 When Trust Becomes a Trap

[Pasha Eaton]

Patia Hannah.

[Hannah Smith]

We have merch.

[Pasha Eaton]

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[Hannah Smith]

It's so cute. We have tote bags. They're red, which I feel like really stands out.

[Pasha Eaton]

What a great pop of color for the season.

[Hannah Smith]

That's Right. And it has our logo on it. The knife. They're perfect for whatever you need to carry around as long as it's the size of the tote or smaller.

[Pasha Eaton]

Diapers, groceries, a puppy. It would all fit in here.

[Hannah Smith]

A puppy would definitely fit.

[Pasha Eaton]

Definitely fit. So go ahead and order it at exactlyrightstore.com search the knife this story contains

[Hannah Smith]

adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

[Pasha Eaton]

The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of the speaker and do not necessarily represent the knife or exactly right media.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

And he was saying, I just left the airport looking for your mum. I was there for two hours. I said to him, well she landed this morning. Why weren't you there this morning to pick her up?

[Pasha Eaton]

Welcome to the Knife. I'm Pasha Eaton.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm Hannah Smith. This week we're speaking with two sisters, Ashley and Crystal. In January of 2023, their 58 year old mother Donna was arrested in Tokyo on international drug smuggling charges. The news stunned her family, especially because Donna had long been fiercely anti drug.

[Pasha Eaton]

Immediately, Ashley and Crystal knew this had something to do with a man named Kelly that Donna had met while online dating and developed a relationship with. Together, Ashley and Crystal tell their family's heart wrenching story of the elaborate scheme their mother became entrapped in in their ongoing efforts for justice.

[Hannah Smith]

Let's get into the interview.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

I'm Ashley and I'm Donna's second eldest daughter.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

And I'm Crystal, Donna's eldest daughter.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

We are both in Perth, Western Australia.

[Pasha Eaton]

So tell us a little bit about what kind of person and what kind of mother your mother, Donna Nelson is.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So our mum, she's 59 years old at the moment. She's a mother of five and a grandmother of three. She's an Indigenous woman. I think she's always looked to fall in love ever since the breakup with our dad. And I guess she was a very devoted mother and wife. So when the breakup happened I think she had lost a lot of her identity as well and didn't know where she fit in the world.

[Hannah Smith]

Ashley and Crystal said their parents separated in 2003 after 20 years of marriage. They both remember the divorce being pretty hard on their mother, Donna.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

For a long time she had hopes that the relationship would reconcile and I think it just got to a point where she realized it wasn't really going to happen. She stopped going to church as well. I guess she felt like she'd failed in that area and it was quite a few years later that she started to date like a long time later. Wasn't It, Yeah.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Mum's also the type of person who's always looking out for younger people, like looking out for people who are affected by substance abuse and, you know, drugs and alcohol and trying to help them move forward to have a better life. That's like Mum's life's work. She's always dedicated herself to people who need and she's always been the voice for people who don't have a voice or aren't comfortable speaking up.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna poured her time and energy into helping others in her community, which was fulfilling. But the desire to find love again never left her. And so she decided to try online dating. Donna cast a wide net geographically. She was looking for the right person and she didn't want to limit herself to just dating someone who lived nearby. And it seemed to work. She met a man, he lived in the US and eventually Donna went to meet him in person.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

She had met a man in Oklahoma and she had flown over there to go see him. And they got along really well to the point where it wasn't really a relationship, but they were able to remain friends. And I feel right up until this happening even they were still friends. So she did have, I guess what you might call some success in online dating. Ashley met her husband through the Internet as well. I met my husband through the Internet. So she definitely saw it as a safe place to meet, like a potential husband or lifelong partner.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, I mean I met my husband online. It's a very common way to meet people. So Tana ends up meeting a guy online that actually lives in the US and goes all the way there to meet him to Oklahoma actually, and he turns out to be this really nice guy. But in the end it's not a romantic connection. I imagine that that maybe gave her some confidence that dating someone, even if they're in another country, could still work out. So then sometime during COVID she gets back on the dating apps and how does that go for her?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So she met this guy, she started to talk to him quite frequently. He had adult children, he lived in Japan, but traveled all around the world. He seemed very interested in like her life and what she was doing and her children as well. And I think that's what really won her over because Mum's a real family oriented person.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Oh, his name is Kelly. That's what she said his name was. I remember it would have been in June of 2022 that I believe Mum first brought him up to me.

[Hannah Smith]

Of Donna's five daughters, Ashley is the self proclaimed skeptic when she heard about her mother's new online long distance relationship with this man named Kelly. She was cautious. She warned Donna about online scammers and what red flags she should look out for. She said things like, never give out your bank account details, don't send him

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

any money, don't accept anything from him, that sort of thing. But didn't really think too much of it because she said, no, he doesn't ask me for anything and he's never asked me for any of my personal information. So I gave her that pre warning and didn't really think too much of it after that.

[Pasha Eaton]

Tell us about like the progression of this new relationship.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Well, she would talk to him all the time. Sometimes Mum would come over to our house or I'd pick her up to take her somewhere and he would call randomly. So we saw him on video calls and it was a very regular, I wouldn't even say daily thing. Sometimes it was all throughout the day that they were speaking. He never really spoke with us. It was just a quick hello, I'll talk to you when you're back home. Let me know when you're home. So again, guess in a way I should have maybe saw that as a red flag. If he was so interested to know more about the family, why did he not really engage in conversation with us? He always would want to only speak to Mum when she was alone. Yeah, we definitely saw the frequency of the conversations.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

It wasn't until I think it was mid December 2022 that mum actually told me when she wanted to go and meet him in person that I dug a bit further and started to ask her, okay, so his name is Kelly. Does he have any identification? What does he do, where does he live? All sorts of questions. And that's when I found out that he told her that his real name is Rex, but his nickname is Kelly. And I didn't think it was strange that his nickname was Kelly because we have family members who have very strange nicknames as well. So it's kind of normal in our family for someone to be given a nickname that you can't really see where it comes from. But she sent me a copy of his Japanese residence card that looked kind of legit. I asked her if she had any photos of him and she said no, they were on his dating profile and he deactivated it. So I asked her, the next time you have a video call with Kelly, can you just take a screenshot of his face? And that's where the original photo of Kelly came from.

[Hannah Smith]

You had asked her, what does he do for a living. And what was her answer to that?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

She said that he owned his own clothing design business where he designed women's gowns, couture gowns, and that he had shops in several locations worldwide. Okay.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. How did your mom seem to be feeling in the relationship?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

She seemed to be feeling really secure and really excited about meeting him. She would say, oh, I've finally got someone that is going to look after me. He doesn't want anything from me. Because in the relationships that she had had before this, it was always someone that she was almost sort of. I wouldn't say a project, but maybe like, they weren't set up or established the way that she was, and it was more. She would sort of take care of them or she would help them to find a job and set them up and build them up to be, like, a strong, independent person that equally contributes in every way in the relationship. And this was the first time that she was finding somebody who needed nothing from her. So she was really excited about that.

[Hannah Smith]

Crystal was happy for her mom. She could tell how excited Donna was, and it was nice to see her feeling loved, especially after spending so much of her life caring for others. But then Donna started to talk about getting married to Kelly, and that was a little alarming. After all, none of them had met him at the same time. The wedding talk didn't seem all that real to Crystal. Don't. Donna and Kelly had been planning to just meet in person for over a year, and that still hadn't happened. So how real could this wedding talk be?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

The wedding was going to be in Nigeria, where he was from. So he lived in Japan, but would fly back and forth to Nigeria very often. All his family were back there. He wanted a big traditional wedding, and it was kind of like he was really proud to be having her as his wife and wanted to show her to all of his family and for us to meet all of his family as well. I remember thinking when she said that she was going to get married to this guy and how the wedding would sort of be, I sort of thought, well, that's nice, but I. I wasn't really sure if it would really happen yet because they hadn't met in person. And so I thought once they meet in person, she'd know for sure and have a better idea. And she had been talking about meeting up with him, and I remember saying to her, how about he come to Perth and meet you here first, and then we all get to meet him? We can see what we think of him as well. You're here in your home city. And she had gone away and spoken to him about that and he sort of brought up how busy he was with his work and that it probably wouldn't be something that he'd be able to do. Then she brought up Japan and before that she brought up Brazil. And I know, I was thinking, these are countries where the people don't really speak English. Can he not come here first? Like, I'd feel much better about you coming here. She again would go away to him and express her concerns. And his response, which I thought was quite reassuring, was that he would be willing to have one or several of us go over with her if we're so worried she can take some people with her so that she feels more comfortable, so that we feel more comfortable about her going. When he sort of said that, I thought, oh, well, someone who's in it for something else would not care to make an offer like that. It didn't really bring any red flags for me. It actually made me feel like, oh, wow, he's really considering her and how we feel and our concerns. He's got nothing to hide.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna and Kelly continued to talk about meeting in person, but there were still no concrete plans. In the meantime, they spoke daily on the phone or on and FaceTime.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

I think one thing to add about him in general is the way that he structured his story to Mum. He made himself very palatable to her as a divorcee with children because he claimed to be divorced from his Japanese wife and had three sons. And I think that's a huge part for mom because he didn't claim to be this young, fit, muscular, like blond haired, blue eyed guy who wanted to be in a relationship with her. He was an older guy, wasn't a very strikingly handsome sort of person. He was just like an average older guy who was a divorcee, had his life sorted out.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. And I mean, they seemed very aligned and like their station in life. And I can totally see how that would be reassuring. You know, I also wanted to touch on something I read researching the story that you can maybe tell me about, which is were they looking at homes together?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

During this time he had inquired about homes in Australia. So he wanted to move over here and build a life with her so that she could be close to her family. Yeah, I think he really sold her on his commitment to family and supporting her with her family commitments.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. You know, you mentioned he said he had children as well. Did she ever speak with his kids over facetime or however they were communicating?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

No, I don't think these children of his really existed. One was a doctor or studying to be a doctor, one was a lawyer and one was something else.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Like it was a pharmacist or something.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Yeah. So he really gave off this well grounded, successful life and that his family were on that path as well.

[Hannah Smith]

After two and a half years of dating remotely, Donna announced she was finally going to meet Kelly in person. This was September of 2022. Apparently Kelly said he would cover the cost of the plane ticket. Initially the plan was to meet up in Hong Kong, but that changed then

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

after that it was going to be Brazil because he also said he had a brother who had a construction business and he was set up in Brazil. So yeah, he just seemed to travel around a lot and it depended on where he would be at the time. And then, oh gosh, it was very last minute that she said she was going to meet him in Japan.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

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[Hannah Smith]

In September of 2022, Donna and Kelly were making plans to meet in person for the very first time. After dating remotely for two years, Kelly kept telling Donna he wanted to purchase her plane ticket to Japan. Except the months started to go by and still there was no plane ticket. They would decide on a date for her to leave and then Kelly would change that plan. Last minute, something would come up and it didn't work for him anymore. And then they would set a new date. But then that date would come and go. No concrete plan, no plane ticket. And then suddenly it was late December of 2022 and the holidays were upon them and still Donna had no idea when or even if she was going to Japan.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So she was originally meant to go to Japan at some point early in December. But she kept asking him like, when am I going? When are you going to send my flight details through? And it just seemed to not be happening. So she focused her attention on like enjoying Christmas with us all. And we had Christmas Day. That was really good. When she was questioning, why haven't you got my flight yet? Is this even going to happen? I really want to see you. He was having the excuse that it's the Christmas period. Things are really busy, I'm trying to get the flight sorted.

[Hannah Smith]

And then a few days after Christmas, Kelly told Donna the ticket had been purchased. So Donna headed to the airport, excited to finally be going to Japan.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

She gets to the airport that night and she goes to put in her flight details on the machines and there's no flight. So she goes home, she's feeling really down and I think she was sort of giving up on hope of actually meeting him. And then it was a few days later when it might have been the 29th, where he says, oh, you're going to go tomorrow. And so it was, yeah, it was a massive blur. We didn't really get time to sit down and have a conversation with her. It was a very hectic period where, you know you're going to Christmas and Boxing Day, family things, and mums already said she's going on a flight. Which didn't eventuate all throughout December. She wasn't given flight details. I guess in a way, I sort of didn't think she was going to go. I thought, he's stalling, like he doesn't really want to meet her.

[Hannah Smith]

Even though Donna had been talking about meeting Kelly for years, there had never been a plane ticket. And then suddenly there was, and Donna was set to leave in less than 24 hours. It was in the middle of the holiday rush and Ashley and Crystal said everything was so hectic they barely had time to talk with their mom about the TR trip. Crystal said she felt like this was something her mother was determined to do. After two years of talking online to Kelly, she wanted to know if the relationship was real, if it was going anywhere.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

I think she. She really, really had her heart set on going to finally meet this guy. It had been so long. I feel as though in her mind it was like, I need to go meet him now, like to progress this relationship. You can't just stay at this point. I don't think it's going to go any further. It's sort of the vibe that I got, especially with the flights that he was planning to take her on and never really did. It just seemed like a lot of failed promises at that point and she just really wanted to go meet him to see, like, are we compatible in person? Is this going to work? But just before she left, it was such a blur. So I had a quite young daughter at the time. One of the other sisters had a quite young son and I remember we were very flat out with those two. And the last time I saw Mum before she left, my other sister and I were at a water park with the kids. And Mum, she was really stressed out in that time. I think she was just flustered, trying to have everything organized. She didn't want to forget her passport and I guess it sort of showed when the trial was on and we saw her suitcase that she had, there was like, very few belongings in there. You think that she was going there in December, January, when it's winter time in Japan, she didn't have any winter clothes, she didn't have any jackets or anything like that.

[Pasha Eaton]

So she does end up going to Japan. When do you first hear that something has gone wrong?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

So before Mum left, we've got her to download the Life 360 app so we can track her. So once she landed at Narita Airport in Tokyo, we could see that she landed. She messaged us and told us, just landed and told us how cold it was, had a little back and forth laugh about the weather and then it was just silence. So that was first thing in the morning that she landed, like 7am local time. And it was about, I'll say, 1pm Perth time, which is 2pm Japan time. We hadn't heard anything. And I messaged all my sisters and said, has anyone heard from Mum? I figured my sisters with the babies would have heard from her first. And as everyone started to come back and say, no, I haven't heard from her, then it started to make us all very worried. I could see on the tracking app that she was still at the airport, but she wasn't answering her phone or anything.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

And it was very out of the ordinary that we didn't hear from Mum, because I just wanted to add that Mum is the kind of person who we would speak to her, not even just once in the day. Like, there were constant conversations and video calls all throughout the day.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna was usually in constant contact with her children, but she'd gone silent on that very first day. Ashley printed out any information that she had about Kelly, including a screenshot of his face that she'd encouraged her mother to take during one of their FaceTimes. She gathered it all up and she headed to her local police station.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

And I told them, I want to lodge a missing person's report for my mum. She's overseas in Tokyo. She's landed there. And I said, I know that it takes 24 hours at least until you can lodge a missing person's report, but if it's out of the ordinary, then you can do it so sooner. And this is out of the ordinary for my mum. So that night I did that missing persons report. While I was speaking with a police officer in an interrogation room, Kelly called me and he was looking for my mum. And he was saying, I just left the airport looking for your mum. I was there for two hours. And I said to him, well, she landed this morning. Why weren't you there this morning to pick her up? Why are you only there tonight? And the police officer was guiding me and saying what to say to him to gain information from him but not tell him anything. And in our little report, he had noted down that I received a phone call from a man with a Nigerian accent. And after that, the missing persons report was done. So I knew I had to do that to open a consular case with the Australian government. So the next morning, I called our consular emergency centre and asked them to create a case for my mum. They didn't have the missing persons report information, so I made sure the police sent that through to them. So that's on the 5th of January. She landed on the 4th of January around. Yes, 7am Then the consular case was created on the 5th of January. And they told us, look, it might take a few days or it could take a week, or it could take a couple weeks to locate your mum. And we asked them if they could please, no matter what time it was, as soon as they got information back about our mum, could they make sure that someone calls us at this point

[Pasha Eaton]

in all of this? What did your local police, local law enforcement think might be happening during those first 24 hours? Because, you know, it was unusual that she just went completely silent and she's been at the airport and the person that she was flying to meet there can't find her. And what. What did they think might be happening?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

The police didn't indicate what their thought process was. They did say it was a little bit strange. And they did say to me once they heard Kelly call me and they heard that conversation, they did say that that's very suspicious. So that's all they indicated to me.

[Pasha Eaton]

What about the call that law enforcement overheard had made them say that's suspicious?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

I think it's the fact that he wasn't waiting at the airport for her when she was only there to meet him, and the fact that he wasn't there at the time that she arrived. He was there at least 12 hours later or maybe over 10 hours later. He went to the airport to look for her. So she landed at 7am local time and he wasn't there until 6pm local time. Yeah, that's like 11 hours later. But also it was how he was talking. I think he mentioned that he knew a lawyer who might be able to help and they were like, oh, why is he talking about that at this stage?

[Hannah Smith]

It was all so strange. Why had Donna gone silent? And why was Kelly calling Ashley 12 hours after he was supposed to pick Donna up from the airport in Tokyo. And even stranger, why did he think she needed a lawyer?

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[Hannah Smith]

Crystal, Ashley and the rest of the family had no idea where their mother was. They called the airport, but it was hard to get any information with the language barrier. They reached out to Vietnam Airlines, the carrier Donna had flown on, and they were told only this the flight had landed safely in Tokyo, but Donna had not picked up her checked bag. All they could do was wait and hope that she was okay and that someone somewhere would call with news.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

You just Feel sick for an endless amount of time. You can't sleep, you can't eat. You're just worried there's no way to contact her. You go from thinking the worst to. I know. The best that I was thinking was maybe she's filled out the immigration part wrong and they have not accepted her. And she's just on a flight right now coming home. And then you bounce to, is she dead somewhere? Did something happen to her? And this person's not telling us anything. Is she in a hospital somewhere? And you start Googling all the different hospitals over there, and you just don't know where to start. I know we had the thought of trying to call as many police stations and hospitals as we could, but it just felt like a needle in a haystack. You have no idea where to start or where to get answers from. And it's just a horrible feeling.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. And so when do you learn what has happened and sort of take me to that moment?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So I. In the days leading up, we were really struggling. Ash was over in Brisbane. The rest of us were here in Perth. We weren't really eating or getting any sleep. So our dad had kind of made it a commitment that each day we're going to catch up at a park or something and just get out and get some fresh air, have some time together. This was now on the Saturday, and Dad wanted to take us out to lunch. So this place where we went to go have lunch, it was out in a pier, and it was really lovely on a sunny day. And it was about an hour's drive from where we all live. We got out there, and I remember it was the first real meal that I had been able to eat in those days. And just as I had gotten through it, I see Dad's phone ring. And he kind of quietly gets up and walks away. And then I just sense like, this is not good. This is someone calling about Mum and it's not going to be good. A few minutes later, dad returns and we all leave the table where we're eating and go to a. I wouldn't even say quiet spot. It's just a footpath out the front of the restaurant. And Ash is on the phone at this point with dad. Dad's really serious and sits us all down. And I can't remember the words, but he just sort of breaks the news that Mum is okay, she's safe, but she's been arrested. She's not coming home, and she's been arrested for drug smuggling. And I remember thinking in that moment, oh, it's all a big mistake. Like, she would get allergies. And I knew, like, Japan, they were very strict on what medications you can bring into the country. So I thought maybe she's taken some of her allergy steroids. And that's what it is. It's all just a big mistake. There's no way Mum would ever be involved in anything to do with drugs. This is all a big mistake. And I asked dad, is it her medication? And I didn't want to know any details beyond yes or no. So he just said, no, it's not.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Yeah, that's when he said she had 1.8 kilograms of methamphetamine. And that's where it was really confusing because we were all kind of like, how did this happen? Because we know Mum and you know, the person who raises you, you know that they're like, totally against drugs. Like, their life's work has been, you know, helping the people affected by drugs and alcohol. So we were kind of like, how did this happen? I just had a weird feeling. I just thought, okay, it's Kelly. It's gotta be Kelly. So that's when I didn't speak to him again. After that moment, I blocked him because I thought, oh, this man's involved in some really bad stuff.

[Hannah Smith]

It was shocking for them to hear that Donna had been arrested at the Tokyo airport for the possession of methamphetamine. This was their same mother who had devoted years to helping her community combat the harms of addiction. Donna had also carefully planned what medications she even brought on the trip, knowing full well that Japan's drug laws are notoriously strict. Ashley said she knew immediately that Kelly was somehow behind this. Many details would come out later during Donna's trial, including something that happened during Donna's three day layover in Laos before flying to Tokyo.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

So she was in Laos for three days and he told her that she needed to stay there for three days because it was the holiday period and there weren't many flight options. They were like really busy. It's like the busy period or whatever. And that's why she stayed in Laos for three days and then ended up going to Japan. But really he had someone meet her in Laos at her hotel. And he was a business partner of Kelly's.

[Pasha Eaton]

And why did Kelly need a business partner of his to meet this woman that he's been dating at her hotel?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

So there were discussions that Mum was having with Kelly that we found out during the trial where they were talking about he needed a certain type of suitcase for his business, he was expanding his clothing design business to include a line of suitcases and this specific type of one he needed. Mum tried looking for one in Australia, but apparently there were none that were what he wanted. Then he said, oh, I will figure it out. And he ended up getting his business partner in Laos to take a suitcase to Mum and said, like, put all of your stuff into this suitcase and get rid of your own and bring this with you. And the tricky part about the suitcase is firstly the timing of when they brought it to Mum. She had like 15 minutes to leave the hotel and get to the airport to check in for her flight. So she's like flustered and she just wants to just get on her flight and this guy brings the suitcase. And it had some fabrics like clothing in there that Mum and Kelly hadn't discussed. And so instead of Mum being able to examine the suitcase on its own, it's like the clothing was put in there to distract her and get her to focus on that instead of the

[Pasha Eaton]

suitcase itself, because she did open it up and look.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Yeah. And when she looked at the clothing, she called Kelly and said, what is this clothing doing inside the suitcase? We didn't discuss any clothing. And he said, these are samples for my business, please bring them with you. And so she kind of like lifted the clothing, looked in it, didn't see anything of concern. She tried to examine the suitcase a bit and didn't see anything concerning. So she just put her things into the suitcase and quickly got into a taxi and went to the airport.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna's family knew their mother was in big legal trouble in a foreign country. Once again, Ashley sprang into action, collecting information that she thought might be useful for her mother's case. She gathered email correspondence between her mother and Kelly and any other documents she could think of that might help prove that Donna was an upstanding person who just trusted the wrong guy. They also needed legal help. Ashley said she just googled English speaking lawyers in Japan and eventually found a firm that would take the case. And that is when more details started to come out, such as how the drugs were expertly hidden inside the suitcase.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

The suitcase had like little grooves. You know how you get the ones with the grooves on the end? Yeah. And the drugs were like finger shaped little lengths in plastic and they were in the grooves. So even if you are to press down and feel all around the suitcase, you're not going to feel what's in those grooves.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Right.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

It was really well hidden.

[Pasha Eaton]

Really well hidden. And your mom even went through the contents of the suitcase. But, like, how could she have ever known? How much time does Donna spend from the moment that she's taken into custody to the trial?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So she was taken into custody on 4 January, 2023, and her trial began mid November 2024.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

From the moment Mum was arrested up until she testified in her trial, which started on a Thursday. I feel like it was the 19th or 20th of November. As soon as Mum finished her testimony, that's when the communication ban was lifted and we could finally communicate with our mum. So that whole time we weren't allowed to write to her, speak to her, anything.

[Pasha Eaton]

And am I understanding correctly, that's 23 months? Yeah.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So the first time we're seeing her, hearing her voice, having any sort of interaction with her, is locking eyes with her when we're seeing her in her trial.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

And even then, the girls weren't allowed to hug Mum or even say anything to her. It was kind of like a hello, because you can get in trouble, like Mum can get in trouble. So it was sort of secretly like

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

miming I love you and hoping that the judges don't see.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna was 58 years old at the time of her trial. She'd already spent almost a year in jail in Japan, unable to speak to or see her loved ones. Her family flew to Japan for the trial and they were hopeful.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

They.

[Hannah Smith]

They felt strongly that they could prove Donna had absolutely no idea about the drugs in the suitcase. She'd been tricked.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

One of the customs officers being interviewed, he had about 20 years of experience in the job. And they asked him, you, with all your experience looking at this suitcase, would you have been able to tell that there were drugs inside this suitcase, not lifting it up, but by looking at it, would you have been able to know? And his answer was no.

[Pasha Eaton]

How did the Japanese court see it?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Well, when they delivered their verdict, they admitted that Mum was the victim of a romance scam. And they also said that because she had been tricked by Kelly, her potential husband, that she deserved sympathy. And that's why they gave her a six year sentence, because realistically, she was facing at least 20. But they also said she ignored red flags as well. So I think that's where they based that verdict on, is her ignoring red flags, in their opinion.

[Pasha Eaton]

What did it feel like to hear that verdict?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

It was very, very hard. So in the courtroom, everything's spoken in Japanese, but there was a translator there for Mum's benefit. And so Mum had like a earpiece on and the translator had an earpiece on and she was speaking Very, very softly. But I heard six years and something to the equivalent of $10,000 in a fine. I didn't really register at the time because the talking kept continuing. And then I saw all of the media jump up and rush out. So I looked at my husband and asked like, what is a. He said six years. And he had to rush out to quickly notify the rest of the family before they found out through the media. So I was in there watching Mum trying to take in all this information, which was really hard. She had her head down on the desk and was crying. And when she was leaving, I kind of mimed to her, don't worry, we'll get you home. And she just cried and uttered, but my grandchildren, I think the thought of, you know, six years for such little people, they're going to be completely different people by the time she gets to see them. And that was the hardest thing for her to take in. It was just a real shock. I felt like it wasn't right. I was worried about how she was going to cope. Is her health going to be okay? And it was just very difficult.

[Pasha Eaton]

What are her conditions in prison? What is her day to day life like there right now?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

At the moment, I believe she's in her, we like to say room, we don't like to say anything else, but she's in her room for 23 and a half hours per day. She showers twice a week. And at this stage, because she's now changed from a detainee to a sentenced prisoner, she's undertaking some type of work in there which from what I understand is done in her room. We're hoping that she gets to interact with others. We're not too sure on that at this point because the transition to being a sentenced prisoner is a new one.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So we depend heavily on consular updates to know how Mum's doing because we don't get phone calls or anything like that. So when we receive a letter from her, it's usually about three weeks after she's written the letter. So we never really know how she's doing in real time unless the consular officers have been able to visit.

[Pasha Eaton]

So as it stands today, when is your mother's release date?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Her projected release date is early February 2029.

[Hannah Smith]

Donna's lawyers filed an appeal, but it was denied. Ashley and Crystal say they've never been able to speak to their mother on the phone. The only way to reach her are through letters that take weeks to travel between Japan and Australia or through rare in person visits. Before this, they'd never Even heard of an elder drug mule scam. But since their mother's case, they've learned about others. People lured in by online romance, unknowingly used to transport drugs, now serving sentences in foreign prisons, their families left behind, desperate to figure out how to help. Meanwhile, the people who orchestrated it all, the ones who set the trap, are long gone. As far as we know, Kelly or Rex or whoever he is, has never faced any legal consequences.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Is he in Japan? Is he in Nigeria? Is he in one of these other places that he had invited Mum to go to?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

There were potential sightings of Kelly in Hong Kong after Reporter started doing an investigation. But we're not sure if anything came of that and if it is him. But, yeah, as far as we know, he hasn't been held accountable for anything and he's just free to find his next victims. Because we do know Mum wasn't the only person he was speaking to. There were at least two other women even in the US that he was speaking to.

[Pasha Eaton]

How did you learn that?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Through the lawyers. They had reviewed evidence on Mum's phone where he had accidentally screenshotted information and sent it to Mum. And it was. It showed a name and it said. I think it was a name, age and location, and it was for two women that were texting him. So it's like text notifications.

[Hannah Smith]

And.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

Yeah, it said to say Donna, 57 or 58 in Australia.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Wow. Even going back to the Hong Kong part where there was a reporter who went over there. So he went there to meet with an Australian priest who helps women in the same sort of situation. He's like a prison chaplain. He had met this reporter and he had a photo of Kelly that he took into the women's prison and showed it to some of the inmates there. And there were several inmates there who said that this was the person that they dealt with. And they're in prison in Hong Kong for drug smuggling.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow.

[Pasha Eaton]

So he has many victims.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Yes, and it seems in various locations throughout the world.

[Pasha Eaton]

Wow, that is just unbelievable. So are there any other sort of legal avenues or ways to potentially try to appeal Donna's conviction?

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

At this point, Mum has waived her right to a second appeal to the Supreme Court. The reasons being is because there's only a 0.3% chance of success. Plus they don't accept. They don't accept new evidence.

[Pasha Eaton]

I'm wondering just because I feel like the story is. Is so compelling, I think because your mom did nothing wrong and is this beloved member of her family and her community, and yet she's in this unimaginable situation. And there are many victims of a crime like this. She is at the center, but of course, her family, who now misses her. How do you. For your children who are growing really quickly while she is in custody in Japan, how do you sort of keep her presence active in their minds during this time?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

So my daughter, she's five now, obviously she doesn't understand or doesn't have any awareness of where her grandmother is and why. We tell her that her grandmother works on the planes and she flies around fighting fires and saving lives. So whenever she sees a plane flying over, she's like, good night Nanny or good morning Nanny. She also would always have these ice creams in her freezer, like these little drumstick ones. I don't know if you guys have them, like, wherever.

[Pasha Eaton]

Oh, yeah, they're top tier.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Yeah. So those used to be Mum's favorite ice creams and her freezer was always stocked with them. And my daughter, whenever she'd go to Mum's house, would go straight to the freezer and grab one. So whenever my daughter's not home, and I happen to have been at the shops, I'll bring those back and put them in our freezer. And we just sort of say, oh, Nanny's been passed and she's dropped off some ice creams for you. We play videos for her, we show her photos. Mum always writes letters. And in the letters she'll include, like, two pages that are sketches that she's done for the two little kids. And it will be like, Lilo and Stitch or Spider man or she'll always do a drawing with their names on it for them. So it's a special treat that they get to have, I think, something that's a little bit sad and it makes Mum sad as well, is whenever, like, there's an eyelash and you have to blow it and make a wish, or when you blow out a candle and make a wish or there's a shooting star. My daughter's wish is always, I wish Nanny could come home now as she gets older. Like, I really hope that we can have Mum home as soon as we can have her home, because I don't know how I would explain what the situation is to her. I think it would break her little heart to understand where her grandmother is.

[Ashley (Donna's daughter)]

And Mum also has an older grandson. He's 16. So it's obviously, he knows exactly what's going on and he's got to deal with, you know, seeing the media stuff. He understands that all of that stuff is really good for Mum's situation because it highlights her case. It keeps her in the public eye sort of thing and applies the pressure where it needs to be applied. But he still goes to school where his nan used to drop him off and pick him up every day and they'd have their own time. And he doesn't have her. Hasn't had her in almost three years now.

[Pasha Eaton]

How is she holding up in all of this?

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

She's the strongest person I know. And when all of this started, if I was to have known that she'd still be not home by this time, I wouldn't have thought she'd still be the same her that we know and love. But she's really focused on her Christianity and her walk with God. That's given her a lot of strength. It's helped her that she can now have letters because up until December last year, she wasn't able to have any letters. She's somebody who always thinks of others and as hard as this situation is for her, she doesn't think of it like that. She thinks of how hard it is for us. She thinks of the other women who are her neighbors over there and how hard it is for them. She thinks about how they don't may not get to have visitors, they may not be sent money for food items like she is sent. She's always looking at, well, this person has it worse than me. She's just such a strong person.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think people like her make everybody want to be better. It's like being able to think of others when you're in that situation. And it's definitely palpable how important she is to everyone who knows her. And, you know, her story is so important because of the, I think, increasing prevalence of scams like this. And, you know, there's a lot of shame that some people carry when this happens to them. And it's like these con artists, they do a really good job finding out what is important to someone and preying on that.

[Hannah Smith]

Ugh. This episode was so heartbreaking to me.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, there's no silver lining in these moments, but it was one of those interviews where I was glad they were together, Ashley and Crystal, which we typically don't do.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah, they told the story really well together. And I mean, there are only two of her five daughters, so it was really. They were representing her family. But, you know, we had been wanting to tell a story like this for a while because we heard about this elder drug mule scam a couple years ago. And thought that it would be a great story, especially because I just feel like a lot of people don't know about this.

[Pasha Eaton]

A lot of people don't know about it. And we're in this. I feel like maybe it's just our age group or our generation right now where our parents are aging and technology has changed so quickly that, you know, recently I even told a story on here about a very small, small time scam my grandpa almost got caught up in. And so it's like I just have to imagine our listenership, maybe know someone who could potentially be, you know, someone who's targeted for a scam like this, which is really scary.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally. And there was a bright spot in this otherwise heartbreaking story. We actually ended up cutting it out for time, but we wanted to mention it. Ashley and Crystal told us that there is this American woman who lives in Tokyo who had heard about Donna's story. She'd never met Donna before, but now she goes and regularly visits her in prison, which I think is so sweet.

[Pasha Eaton]

It's so sweet. And it has to just feel so good for Donna to have someone there in this place that she's so unfamiliar with, where she doesn't speak the language, visit her, you know, show her support in person. And also, you know, to then be able to communicate with Donna's family. Hey, I saw her today. You know, just that someone laid eyes on her has to just be so nice to hear.

[Hannah Smith]

Absolutely.

[Pasha Eaton]

Ashley said something in the interview that I just think is so insightful and that is that seeing someone on FaceTime or, you know, any sort of visual, like zoom these days, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're credible or that they're legit. And I think that maybe 10 years ago that's kind of the stories we were hearing about online dating scams was, oh, he could never facetime, his facetime was always frozen or his computer didn't work. And that doesn't always now act as like a gauge of whether or not someone is actually who they say they are. Because you can get on FaceTime and you can still be lying about everything.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, yeah, the red flags to look out for. It feels like a game of whack a mole. Like it's always changing. Because Ashley talked about warning her mom about all the common red flags that she would think of to warn someone, like, don't give out your bank account information. But none of that actually ended up being very relevant in this case because the red flags were so different. And it made me think of this other story well, yeah, I actually want

[Pasha Eaton]

to touch on that for a second, because also, one thing that stuck out to me is, like, okay, you're traveling to Japan just like they were. I would have my own hesitations about a family member traveling alone to a foreign country to meet someone that they' so far, only met online. However, it's like Donna had traveled internationally before to meet someone she'd met online, and that person was who they said they were. And even though it doesn't totally calm your fears, I think it reinforces the idea that that's possible, that you're not necessarily being scammed.

[Hannah Smith]

Right. It's possible to date someone in a different country and it not be a scam.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yes, of course.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. So there was this other case. There's multiple. But I wanted to touch on this other case. It's actually from 2014, but this man named Ralph Soules was caught in a very similar type of scheme. He was 74 years old at the time, and he was caught transporting methamphetamine into New Zealand, was arrested, and then spent 18 months in custody. He ended up getting out. You know, it also depends on what country you're in and what their laws are around this. But what happened with him was that he met someone online who said that he wanted to invest in his business, and they started chatting, became friends, essentially, is what Ralph thought. So this man said his name was Lawrence Green, which was not his real name. And in 2013, Ralph got on a plane for Johannesburg, South Africa, to meet Greene in order to set up some bank accounts to start this business. As soon as he got there, he got a message from Greene saying, actually, oh, I had to leave for Fiji. I'm on vacation in Fiji. Can you meet me there? And it was a very similar thing to this story. He said, oh, and by the way, I have this suitcase. Do you mind grabbing it and bringing it with you? Ralph also opened the suitcase, looked through it, didn't see anything suspicious, but of course, there were drugs in the lining of the suitcase that he didn't know about. And so that is how he was tricked and caught. And, you know, fortunately, he didn't have a longer sentence. But 18 months is still a long time. And for children whose parents are in prison abroad, it's just a nightmare.

[Pasha Eaton]

18 months is a long time to be anywhere that's not home. And to think of your parent in prison in their 70s in a foreign country is like, terrorizing. And, you know, this idea, like, Donna looked through the suitcase, Ralph looked through the suitcase. Even that is Like, I think so wise of both of them to have done that, because if I was so trusting of someone, felt like I was so connected to someone to meet them in another foreign country, I don't know that I would have even thought to do that. And so the fact that, like, you still have people being cautious and still this is happening just shows you how seasoned these con artists are. I mean, this is like organized crime.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally.

[Pasha Eaton]

And it's so Sad. I mean, 18 months of someone's life, that's a long time.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah. You know, the red flags to look out for, I guess now in these cases are like, don't ever bring a suitcase across international lines or any object that's not yours that you don't know what it is.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. And, you know, this idea that someone wants to invest in your business is like, that could be perfectly plausible. However, if they're requiring you to fly across the world to open bank accounts, if they're not showing up where they said they would be and wanting you to go to another country, it's like, if someone is that serious, you can always take a beat. If they disappear, then that's for the best.

[Hannah Smith]

It's like that classic scam, the way scammers make you feel that you're gonna miss out unless you act now.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. This sense of urgency all the time and these wild stories. Like, imagine even going to lax, like saying you would be at LAX and then just not going and leaving someone stranded there to figure something out. Like, I wouldn't sleep. I'd be so stressed to do that to someone.

[Hannah Smith]

Well, this is why you're not a scammer.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, no, I could never.

[Hannah Smith]

You don't have the personality for it.

[Crystal (Donna's daughter)]

Thank goodness.

[Hannah Smith]

Seriously, you looked up some 2023 stats about Elder fraud, right?

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, and it's pretty staggering. So this is all according to a report released by the FBI. In 20 scams targeting people age 60 and older, the average victim of elder fraud lost over $30,000, which is so much money. And, you know, oftentimes that's when people are done working or close to being done working, and they're relying on that savings. And so the impact on their life can be pretty astronomical. And in total, in 2023 alone, victims of elder fraud, and this is in the US lost a total of $3.4 billion.

[Hannah Smith]

Wow, that's wild.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah, it's wild. And there are so many different types of elder fraud, but the main one is tech support. Scams like that could be a pop up on your computer saying you need to fill this out right now. Or someone calling and saying, you know, this is so and so from your bank or whatever. They're finding you digitally.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Pasha Eaton]

And that is a tricky thing, I think, especially if you're elderly. But even now, I know people in my own age group that have gotten these phone calls.

[Hannah Smith]

Oh, yeah.

[Pasha Eaton]

I know people are falling for them because they're very believable.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally believable.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. So there's. Investment scams is the costliest to victims, typically. But good advice for everyone is that if you know someone who you think might be susceptible to these kinds of scams, you can just encourage them to never give up any personal information. If someone says they're calling from your bank, hang up and call your bank back.

[Hannah Smith]

Absolutely.

[Pasha Eaton]

And not at the number they called you on.

[Hannah Smith]

If someone says, I just need you to confirm some information, there's no reason why that would ever happen. You would never have to give out any personal information to someone who's calling you who supposedly already has your information. Yeah. That's just never needed.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. Don't send money to anybody you don't know. And if you haven't met them in person and they're telling you, you know, a chaotic story and telling you they need this money right now, it's still okay to take a beat.

[Hannah Smith]

Yeah.

[Pasha Eaton]

Maybe call someone else and get their opinion on it. I've heard stories of bank tellers refusing to cash checks in certain instances where they think someone's being scammed. And I don't know exactly what their authority is or how often that's happening. I doubt there's, like, stats on it, but, I mean, that has to be a hard job for them if they can see it happening in real time, too. So. I actually tried to pay someone on Facebook Marketplace over Zelle a couple weeks ago, and it just wouldn't let me. It was like.

[Hannah Smith]

No, they're really trying to crack down on scams, I think.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah. But I was there trying to, like, buy a table.

[Hannah Smith]

I'm here. This is real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like a good rule of thumb if you get a scam call is just like you said, just say, I gotta call you right back. Get their name, their employer and their number.

[Pasha Eaton]

Yeah.

[Hannah Smith]

And if they get weird about that, it's a red flag.

[Pasha Eaton]

Red flag. Or I would just hang up and, like, they'll call back if it's important. And even then, you can just Google the number.

[Hannah Smith]

Totally. Well, that's our episode for today. Thanks for listening.

[Pasha Eaton]

We'll see you next week. If you have a story for us. We would love to hear it. Our email is thenifexactlyrightmedia.com or you can follow us on Instagram henifpodcast or bluesky

[Hannah Smith]

at the this has been an exactly right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith

[Pasha Eaton]

and me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breyfogle and Alexis Amorosi.

[Hannah Smith]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle.

[Pasha Eaton]

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

[Hannah Smith]

Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.

[Pasha Eaton]

Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.

[Hannah Smith]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Narrator/Host Introduction]

Thank you Hannah and and for more crazy stories like the one you just heard, search the knife wherever you get

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