Compassionate Leadership and Burnout Recovery at Work | Natalia Sarro

Summary

"Compassionate Leadership and Burnout Recovery at Work"

Podcast: Compassion in a T-Shirt
Host: Dr. Stan Steindl
Guest: Natalia Sarro
Date: March 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Stan Steindl speaks with psychologist and compassion-focused leadership expert Natalia Sarro about the intersection of compassion, workplace wellbeing, burnout, and gender dynamics. Natalia draws on her experience working in Latin America and Spain to discuss the intricacies of performance pressure, organizational culture, psychological safety, and the unique experience of women in leadership. The conversation offers both personal stories and research-backed insights, including strategies for cultivating compassion and "cathedral thinking"—building long-term emotional climates that foster growth and inclusion.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Natalia Sarro’s Professional & Personal Journey

• Identity Tied to Performance:
  Natalia started her career in Argentina, facing her own struggles with overidentifying self-worth with professional performance ([02:21]).
  • “Work was part of my identity and part of my worth as a human being, was attached to my performance in the workplace.” — Natalia ([02:34])
• Transition to Burnout Work:
  Increasing diagnoses of burnout among her clients, especially women leaders, shifted her focus to workplace resilience.
• The Workplace as a Microcosm:
  She highlights how both the "best and worst" of humanity reveal themselves in the workplace ([04:14]).

2. The Link Between Identity, Perfectionism, and Burnout

• Work easily becomes central to personal identity, driving perfectionism and burnout.
  • “Our sense of self worth gets so intimately tied up in that too...perfectionism kicks in and then suddenly we're starting to feel a bit exhausted by all that as well.” — Dr. Stan ([05:12])

3. Gender Socialization and Unique Challenges for Women

• Invisible Workload and Perfectionism:
  Women negotiate self-worth around not just professional achievements but also family and social obligations ([05:57]).
  • Added layers lead to a "perfect storm" for burnout among women leaders.
  • “Women are more prone to experiencing burnout...negotiating their worth not only around their titles...but also have the additional pressure...to keep the harmony in the room, take care of their children...invisible motherhood, workload and overload at home.” — Natalia ([06:13])
• Fear of Being 'Too Much' vs. 'Too Weak':
  Women leaders face a double bind: assertiveness may be labeled negatively, passivity seen as weak.

4. Compassionate Leadership and Vision for the Workplace

• From Fear to Psychological Safety:
  Natalia’s vision is to help organizations move from fear-based cultures to psychologically safe environments, particularly in the Spanish-speaking world ([08:25]).
  • She aims to create “communities of practice and belonging so that compassion becomes a shared language...something that is embodied.” ([09:45])

5. Defining Psychological Safety

• Foundation for High Performance:
  Psychological safety allows employees to speak up about struggles or disagreements without fear of reprisal ([11:13]).
  • “Shame grows in the shadows...the more people hide their suffering...performance suffers, and connection and purpose suffer.” — Natalia ([12:37])

6. Compassionate Leadership – With and For

• Leading With vs. For Compassion:
  Moving beyond personal compassion (“with compassion”) to systemically embed it (“for compassion”) creates resilient organizations ([14:20]).
  • “Leading for compassion means...having a vision of strategically shaping systems where there's less chances that burnout happens...and more chances that compassion flows naturally within the team.” — Natalia ([15:19])

7. Cultural Translation of Compassion

• Spanish-Speaking Contexts:
  Adapting compassion training is less about words (compasión translates directly) and more about interaction styles ([16:52], [19:51]).
  • “Spanish speaking cultures are mostly collectivistic...we learn from each other through connection and conversation.” — Natalia ([17:58])
• Misconceptions in Corporate Cultures:
  Compassion often misconstrued as weakness or pity; terms like “caring leadership” or “human-centered leadership” help bridge cultural resistance ([21:10]).

8. The Role of Fierce Self-Compassion for Women

• Christine Neff’s Concepts:
  Introduces the idea of “fierce self-compassion”—balancing nurturing with assertiveness, courage, and advocacy ([24:42]).
  • Natalia shares a metaphorical story of a female leader choosing not to take a seat in a meeting room, and later claiming her space ([27:19]).
  • “To what extent do we authorize ourselves to have a voice and to lead?” — Natalia ([27:56])

9. Gender Bias and Advocacy

• Judged Differently:
  Assertive behaviors in women are often labeled as “too much” compared to men ([31:43]).
  • “There's a waste of energy and...inner resources being used trying to find their place in the room.” — Natalia ([34:14])
• Cathedral Thinking:
  Pushing for systemic change involves patient, foundational work for future generations (“cathedral work”) ([34:25]).

10. Balancing Tender and Fierce Compassion

• Integration for All Genders:
  Both men and women struggle with “acceptable” emotional expression; leadership development should integrate both strength and tenderness ([35:58]).
  • “These energies...need each other. So we need, you know, the strength...and at the same time we want to be a caring force.” — Natalia ([37:23])

11. The Inner Critic and Self-Compassion

• Personal Example:
  Natalia shares her experience of outward confidence juxtaposed with inner self-criticism after public engagements ([39:17]).
  • “At the same time, there's this silent inner voice when we come back home...there's this inner waste of energy...tied to the voices of self criticism.” — Natalia ([40:15])
• Origins and Solutions:
  Self-criticism originates in childhood, internalized from significant adults. Therapy can help increase the volume of an “inner compassionate voice” ([42:24]).

12. Shifts from Compassionate Leadership

• Ripple Effects in Teams:
  Self-compassion in leaders spreads to teams, changing how mistakes and feedback are handled. It leads to psychological safety, growth mindset, and supportive microcultures ([44:46]).
  • “If you want to know what's the culture like of a company...ask your people, how do they feel on Sunday evening about Monday morning?” — Natalia ([47:04])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The best and the worst of humanity shows up in the workplace.” — Natalia Sarro ([04:14])
• “Community of practice and belonging so that compassion becomes a shared language...embodied.” — Natalia ([09:45])
• “Shame grows in the shadows...the more people hide their suffering...performance suffers.” — Natalia ([12:37])
• “Compassion...is not pity...it’s not associated with specific religions...We still need to educate people...about the power of the word.” — Natalia ([21:10])
• “To what extent do we authorize ourselves to have a voice and to lead?” — Natalia ([27:56])
• “Courage is embedded into fierce self compassion...the mama bear can be super nurturing...but she will show you her teeth if you do something that really threatens her.” — Natalia ([28:49])
• “Cathedral work...we’re laying the stones right now for a huge building where we might not see the whole building finished, but still it’s worthwhile laying the stones.” — Natalia ([34:25])
• “Your communication is the glue of culture.” — Natalia ([46:54])

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Important Timestamps

• Natalia’s personal journey and focus on burnout: [02:21]–[05:08]
• Gender socialization and burnout for women: [05:57]–[07:55]
• Vision of compassion in organizations & Spanish-speaking world: [08:25]–[10:18]
• Defining and operationalizing psychological safety: [11:13]–[13:31]
• Compassion: with vs. for leadership: [14:20]–[16:18]
• Cultural translation & misconceptions about compassion: [16:52]–[23:43]
• Fierce self-compassion for women (with story): [24:42]–[28:49]
• Gender bias and cathedral thinking in systems change: [31:43]–[35:05]
• Balancing compassion energies across genders: [35:58]–[38:40]
• Natalia’s post: outward confidence, inner criticism: [38:40]–[41:33]
• The origins, function, and transformation of the inner critic: [42:24]–[44:28]
• How organizations change with compassionate leadership: [44:46]–[47:23]

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Conclusion

Natalia Sarro offers an insightful, practical, and deeply human take on how compassion, self-compassion, and psychological safety can transform workplaces—especially for women leaders facing systemic and internalized barriers. The episode emphasizes that real cultural change is slow, subtle, and requires sustained “cathedral building,” but that it starts with individual awareness and ripples outward into organizations and beyond.

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For more from Natalia Sarro:
Visit her Instagram for reflections on compassionate leadership, or follow up via the links in the episode’s show notes.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl and welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt where we explore the science and practice of compassion and how it can transform not only our inner lives, but the cultures we work in every day. Today's guest is Natalia Saro, a psychologist based in Barcelona who works at the intersection of compassion focused therapy, compassion cultivation, training and compassionate leadership. Natalia is deeply engaged in the wellbeing at workspace, supporting individuals and organisations to move from burnout and performance pressure towards sustainability, relational safety and grounded leadership. In this conversation we explore the emotional realities of modern work, the pressures, the expectations and the ways our sense of identity and worth can become tied to performance. We reflect on the particular challenges many women face in professional settings and how compassion and self compassion can create steadiness, clarity and strength in complex environments. Natalia, a certified Spanish speaking instructor with the Centre for Compassionate Leadership, speaks beautifully about translating not just the language of compassion science, but the leadership narratives within Spanish speaking cultures. She brings a thoughtful long term perspective, what she calls cathedral thinking about shaping emotional climates that may outlast us. And if you don't already follow her, Natalia has a wonderful Instagram presence where she shares reflections on compassion leadership and well being. Thoughtful, grounded and quite powerful. And so I bring you Natalia Sarro. Natalia Sarro, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.

[B]

Thank you Stan for your welcome. Happy to be here with you.

[A]

Wonderful stuff. Natalia, could you start by telling us a little bit about your background, I guess, and perhaps your own relationship with work? How did your personal journey maybe shape the way that you now approach compassion in organizations?

[B]

Sure. So actually I started my career path as a psychologist and a career coach around 15 years ago now in Latin America. I was born in Argentina and I think that my motivation slash obsession with the workplace started basically with my own struggles with my own personal struggles with, you know, putting such a huge pressure on myself about really having a strong presence in my work. So I would say that work was part of my identity and part of my worth as a human being, was attached to my, to my performance in the workplace and what I did as a psychologist and how I performed in different projects I had. And then, you know, I became really fascinated and curious about how people build over time their relationship with work and the identity tied directly with performance. So that took me just to work with clients, specifically in navigating career transitions. As a career coach I worked, you know, delivering trainings in big companies to leaders, to global teams with a focus on cross cultural communication. So I enjoyed working with people working in different countries, then at Some point, I noticed that more and more of my clients would come with this diagnosis of burnout. In other words, people that were struggling with chronic stress, with anxiety in meetings, with having to make a pause for a couple of weeks or even months at work because burnout became an epidemic. So that's how I actually started understanding my own relationship with burnout and also supporting specifically women leaders in healthcare, education, business that were also struggling with burnout. And for me, it's fascinating the workplace, because if you think about it for a second, Stan, the best and the worst of us unfolds in the workplace, right? If you are struggling, for example, with self worth, it shows up in meetings. If you are struggling with conflict, it shows up in your relationships with your managers or with your colleagues. So the best and the worst of the humanity shows up in the workplace. So for me, just focusing my career and my support of people in the workplace is like I have more than enough to learn, explore, and do research on because there's still so much to be done in that field.

[A]

It's so interesting you mentioned identity and worth because I was just sort of thinking when we are at a social gathering or something like that and we meet a new person, they'll say, so what do you do? And then we'll have some sort of identity. Often we wrapped up in what our work is or what our work title is, or, you know, and there'll be this sense of identity, but then also how we then do at that and perform. And then our sense of self worth gets so kind of intimately tied up in that too. And then of course, we feel this drive to achieve or to overachieve, and then, you know, perfectionism kicks in and then suddenly we're starting to feel a bit exhausted by all that as well. So it just all sort of layers up, I suppose, in a way.

[B]

It does, it does. And also I believe it's not only about what the workplace offers, it's also about gender socialization, at least from my perspective. What I observe working with women leaders, specifically women struggle with perfectionism and with self criticism even more than men. And that shows up in research over and over that women are more prone to experiencing burnout in the workplace because they're negotiating their worth not only around their titles, their salaries, their financial stability, but also they have the additional pressure just to be the ones that keep the harmony in the room, the ones that take care of their children at home, that have this invisible motherhood, workload and overload at home. So basically, it's added layers that Create this perfect storm for women, especially when it comes to exploring career paths or trying just to grow in their career journey. So I see more and more super brilliant women, academic professionals, researchers, leaders of great organizations, really, really struggling with self worth, really struggling silently with finding that they do not have a voice or that they cannot take up too much space because they can come across as too much. And usually this does not happen when it comes to same behaviors coming from a man in the room. So this is not usually openly spoken in all meetings. But that's something I observe over and over in my individual practice with leaders. And that's why I find compassion in the workplace. And compassionate leadership is essentially important for women at work.

[A]

Yeah, I definitely want to explore some of those gender differences, but especially the experience of women as you've described, but you just mentioned their compassion and at work, I guess. And so when you think about your work today and around well being and compassionate work, what is it that feels most important for you or what's the vision there really that's guiding you with compassionate work?

[B]

Great question. So I truly believe that suffering is everywhere in the world. Workplace is not an exception. In the workplace, suffering shows up over and over as unmet, missed deadlines, people not showing up in conference calls, people leaving their workplace, conflict, higher reactivity. So my vision is supporting women leaders and people in general to move from fear based organizations to organizations based on psychological safety. One of my main desires is supporting women leaders to take over, you know, more power, which does not mean imposing authority or imposing, you know, being controlling, but actually bringing all that wealth of experience and wisdom to the realm with, you know, being more comfortable with that. It more specifically, my vision is to, is to create communities of practice in the Spanish speaking world. Because I come from Argentina, I live now in Spain, so many of my participants of my trainings or clients come from the Spanish speaking world. So that would be a great vision just to create more and more communities of practice and belonging so that compassion becomes a shared language. Not just something you do or something you hear about or read a book about. Something that is embodied. Right. And we know that compassion can be cultivated, it can be trained. And when you have a community of practice, it makes sense and you feel much, you know, better supported. Communities of belonging around compassion. I would say that that's my dream.

[A]

Yeah, that's a beautiful dream. And, and you, you sort of mentioned there at the start something that's a pretty, it's, it's a moving kind of thought and that is that suffering does occur in the workplace, a range of different types of suffering that people might go through. And in a sense, you know, that's really what compassion is about, is to sort of be sensitive to that suffering and to be able to, you know, maybe do something that is helpful there or helps to alleviate or prevent the suffering. You mentioned the move from a sort of a fear based kind of culture or atmosphere to psychological safety. And you mentioned this community of practice, especially in the Spanish speaking world with psychological safety. Just, just sort of elaborate a bit there. How are you seeing psychological safety and how does that relate to compassion for you?

[B]

Excellent. So there's a body of research behind psychological safety for several years now happening likely. And Amy Edmondson is one of the leading researchers in the field of psychological safety. She has published very interesting work around psychological safety. And what we know through research is that high performing teams, the protective factor of high performing teams is higher levels of psychological safety. In other words, psychological safety is the shared understanding in a group of people working together that this is a safe space to speak up. This is a safe space to say I'm struggling or I don't know how to solve this problem or I disagree without fear of retaliation, without fear of being dehumanized or punished somehow for voicing their needs, their concerns or their struggles. So imagine a person that is struggling. I mean, I've come across over and over lots of experiences that I heard directly from employees from different companies saying, you know, I'm struggling with a mental health diagnosis, but I don't want to share this with my manager because I fear this is going to impact my performance review or the possibilities of growing in the company. So you have this silent struggles. We know shame grows in the shadows and the more people hide their suffering in the end of the day, obviously performance suffers. It's and connection and purpose suffers. So when leaders understand that psychological safety is a choice and it's a strategic choice, it's something that you can co design with others strategically, then this is a very fascinating conversation we can have about, okay, how can we design microcultures of care? How can we redesign routines, relationships in the team or with different areas of the company in a way that people feel seen, heard and valued and that they are more prepared to bring their best ideas, bring their authentic selves to work because they know that this is a safe space to disagree and to be themselves?

[A]

People suffer in silence, don't they? Sometimes. And that has all sorts of really difficult implications for them, but also for the organization really. And I guess on performance Indicators, but also just personally and it and emotionally and relationally, people suffer in silence and it's very, very, very painful. We want people to feel heard and understood and safe to be then able to express what their experience is. And you know, once they are able to, you know, kind of, sort of express or you know, kind of be sensitive to and move towards that suffering, then they can start to identify what might be able to change, I suppose, to reduce that suffering.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So. And I think so. This is part of the work of a compassionate leader, you know, to lead not only with compassion, which is what, you know, intuitively we all understand what it's all about. Leading with compassion means, you know, being able just to, you know, have a higher level of self awareness, understanding how to, you know, deal with own emotions in order to respond intentionally rather than reactively, you know, how to listen in meetings to other people, how to, you know, be offering generous interpretations of suffering and understanding that, for example, an employee that is not delivering or that it's not showing up or that its performance is dropping, there's a human being there who's probably whose needs are being unmet. Right. So that would be leading with compassion. But I think the most interesting aspect that I also learned from my work and from my path as a teacher of the center for Compassionate Leadership in Compassionate Leadership Training is the added layer of leading full compassion. And that for me was like a game changer. Leading full compassion means it's not only about being a good leader in the room, but actually having a vision of strategically shaping systems where there's less chances that burnout happens, less chances that people feel excluded, and more chances that compassion flows naturally within the team through the way we communicate with each other, through the way we organize tasks, through the way we open and close meetings and so on. So for me that's, that's part of my vision. How can we support leaders to lead not only with compassion, but actually full compassion, considering the higher impact and the long term aspect of shaping organizations.

[A]

Yeah. Leading with compassion and leading for compassion. You became, I think, the first certified Spanish speaking instructor with the center for Compassionate Leadership. And I've actually had Laura Berland and Evan Harrell on, on this podcast before. So I, I've met them both. But what's that meant for you really? I guess it's a bit to do with communities of practice as you were describing a moment ago. You know, like bringing compassion science and compassionate leadership into Spanish speaking contexts, I suppose. Tell us about that. Sure.

[B]

So actually compassion science and compassion cultivation Training is already happening in the Spanish speaking world. Actually, one of my teachers from the CCT teacher training program is Gonzalo Brito Ponce, who has been doing brilliant work around translating the science of compassion and bringing it into the Spanish speaking world in different ways. Now, what I've noticed is that compassion in the workplace and compassionate leadership, I think there's still a lot of terrain to be explored. It's like kind of a more unexplored territory in the Spanish speaking world, at least from what I know. So I think there is a huge opportunity there and also a challenge, you know, just to support local leaders from, you know, hospitals in Chile and Argentina or, you know, NGOs that have not many resources and still, you know, bring up their humanity and do the best they can to, to lead with compassion and for compassion, even with limited resources. So part of my goal has been to translate the content and the curriculum of the compassionate leadership training program to Spanish, which is obviously not only a language translation, but it's also more of a subtle cultural translation. So the flow of the program and the main concepts are understandable and also, you know, feel like we own it. Right. So I had to make several adaptations. And I'm still, you know, making adaptations because I'm still receiving feedback from participants and it's becoming an embodied work. That's what I really, really like about, about this, this project, that people are, you know, saying things like, I like the program, I like learning compassionate leadership. But I think we need more time to talk to each other because as you probably know, Spanish speaking cultures are mostly collectivistic cultures. We learn mostly from each other through connection and conversation. That meant I had to increase the time of breakout rooms or group meetings during the program so people could really connect with each other. So as you can see, that's how compassion is waived differently in some cultures. And we need also to have that cultural sensitivity when we work with people from different backgrounds. And that's fun. That's challenging and it's fun.

[A]

I know this is a relatively simplistic question, but is there a particular word or words that you had to choose between in terms of a translation of compassion?

[B]

Well, actually not. We didn't need to translate the word compassion into a different word. So we use the word compacion. Empathy sounds the same, empathia. So I think there hasn't been such a challenge at making a very fine translation of specific words. It's more about making the experience of learning compassion in the workplace more adapted to how we learn in South American countries. For example, originally the sessions were 90 minutes according to the main curriculum created by the center for Compassionate Leadership. And we had to extend it to include guided visualizations and have more time for breakout rooms. But it's more an adaptation of the format and to the, the way we learn together, but not necessarily about the wording.

[A]

Yeah, okay, that's interesting. No, it's the, there's, there's a whole range of nuances, differences that, that you wanting to gradually understand and adapt and, and it's, it's more in the flow of the presentation and, and the interaction styles and those sorts of things, not so much the words per se.

[B]

Yeah. However, I have to say that compassion still carries the weight of pity exactly like it happens, you know, in other languages. So we still have a lot of work to do around distinguishing what compassion is and what compassion isn't. Right. It's not pity. It's not associated with specific religions. So still probably now thinking second time about your question. Yes, there's still a lot of work to be done, especially when it comes to working with corporations about understanding compassion as something different to weakness or being too soft or pity or narcissism. So we still need to educate people about, and psychoeducate people about, you know, the power of the word compassion and also showing the data of the research and the data behind the impact of shaping our leadership style in a compassionate way. I usually try to use other synonyms together with compassion, but never eliminating the word compassion from the conversation, such as caring leadership or humanized leadership or human centered leadership, because those words are more accepted, so to speak, in the corporate world.

[A]

Yes, the old fears, blocks and resistances arise, don't they? People everywhere will have certain preconceived ideas about what compassion is or certain fears about what it might mean. And, and so, you know, you're still working with those fears, blocks and resistances as well, which is really interesting.

[B]

We all have them. We all have them exactly. All the fears, blocks of resistances, especially in the workplace, that it has been associated traditionally, you know, with being productive, with working hard, with bringing your happy face. And then compassion might sound like this. Well, actually, Christine Neff has done a lot of work about how self compassion actually improves performance rather than reducing performance or improves our ability to recover from failure as opposed to making us more prone to fail again. So these concepts are so embedded also in our education. It doesn't matter where you come from in the world. So I think we all can relate to this fears, blocks and resistance. So that's Definitely part of the world we still need to do everywhere in the world, not only in the Spanish speaking world.

[A]

It's really interesting that there are certain things that are somewhat different or might be presented slightly differently in different cultures and so on. And then there are also some just very human, common humanity sort of elements to it as well. And these inhibitors of compassion seem to be across, across cultures and around the world. And most of us feel some of those, those reservations you've spoken, I guess, about women in the workplace. And there is this thing where women are socialized, obviously differently and socialized to care for others while being hard on themselves really is sort of the, the paradoxical socialization there. How do you see self compassion or compassion broadly you know, supporting women, you know, having that sort of grounded authority, that voice, that, that visibility, you know, for women at work?

[B]

Well, that's, that's, for me, one of the most fascinating areas to explore because, you know, while compassion is a motivation that we need to cultivate as human beings, regardless of gender, culture and industry, I believe, and I follow Christine Neff's work in this direction, that compassion needs to be shaped differently when it comes to women and women in the workplace. And she adds this concept of fierce compassion and fierce self compassion, which means, you know, balancing not only, you know, the soft nurturing aspect of compassion that we, you know, intuitively associate with the word compassion, you know, being caring, being understanding, you know, being there for others. She also adds the second layer of the fierce self compassion aspects, which is, you know, nurturing as a woman, the ability to say no when it's required to raise their hands and voice their needs in the face of injustice. You know, be motivated to take up space and to be visible. Because again, the women are struggling with additional blockers and resistances that are collectively shared. Right. And they are invisible. So woman in the workplace needs to work specifically on gaining their own inner authority. It's not about how they are perceived by others, but actually how I perceive myself. How safe do I feel at voicing, you know, my, my needs or saying I do not agree or saying, you know, I think of this differently. There is a very nice example. I remember once I coach a client, she was a high performing leader in a Spanish company and she was, you know, moving to a meeting room physically with other leaders. And the moment she got there, apparently there were not enough chairs for everybody. Let's say there were six people and there were only five chairs left. And then she decided to leave the room and follow the committee meeting from a different Room connected through zoom. Right. So then we had the coaching session a few days later, she tells me what happened and, and I asked her, why didn't you stay in the room? Well, Natalia, there were not enough chairs, right. I just thought there was not a place for me. And I asked her, would it change anything if you grabbed your own chair and place it in the room and really occupy your space? And even though this might sound obvious, you know, this was not that obvious for her and it's not that obvious for many of us. So what changed is that in the next team meeting with other leaders, she grabbed her own chair. She really reclaimed her own space. Not as a way of imposing her presence. It's about grounding yourself and saying, I also have something to say. So for me, this is a beautiful example of something that metaphorically happens to many women in the workplace. To what extent do we authorize ourselves to have a voice and to lead?

[A]

Yes, it was sort of a literal example, but, but it's, it's a, it's a metaphor for what people of what women often feel is that they don't have a place in the room and they have to concede or, you know, step away or be polite about it and those sorts of things. And I suppose we still want to be generally polite, but yes, being able to advocate for ourselves. That's the fierce self compassion, isn't it? Is to be able to advocate and express ourselves assertively or to have healthy boundaries or, you know, those sorts of things. They take a lot of courage really, I suppose to. In some ways courage is often the key, isn't it? With compassion and with self compassion.

[B]

It's great that you mentioned the word courage because definitely usually compassion is associated with, you know, again, being weak or being soft or like something pink. But actually it takes a lot of courage and wisdom just to do something that is uncomfortable or to say something that might not be likable for everybody. That's why courage is embedded into fierce self compassion. Actually, Christine Neff usually uses the metaphor of the mama beer, right? Like mama beer can be super nurturing with a cup and take care of the cup, but she will show you her teeth if you do something that really threatens her or her cup. And again, it's super important to understand that fear self compassion has nothing to do with violence or you know, because in the end of the day, everybody is doing the best they can. Even that difficult client or that difficult person I'm struggling with or having conflict with. We're all doing the best we can. But it's about reclaiming your place and having on developing and cultivating the courage to do what needs to be done. And not only for yourself. I believe it's not only advocating for yourself. As you just said, many of these leaders are advocating for their own teams or for their own communities. They need to claim full benefits for a team member or they are defending a cause. I work with many women leaders that work for foundations and NGOs, so they're actually supporting a cause, a community, or a collective cause. So imagine that when a woman raises her voice in a very grounded but clear way, she's also protecting others. So there's an altruistic motivation behind self compassion.

[A]

Yes, the mama bear again. But I think one of the things that really kind of frustrates me sometimes or feels really wrong or unfair, is that the same kinds of advocating behaviors, whether one's advocating for themselves or one might be advocating for their team as a, as a leader, but those same advocating behaviors in women can be sort of interpreted differently than when those same behaviors are coming from men. There's like an unfair sort of assessment or interpretation or the women get labeled wrongly, you know, when. When actually they're doing the very same thing. I know I'm sort of, I'm not. Might not be explaining myself very well, but what are your thoughts there in terms of how that socialization sort of even affects things at that level? You know, the same behaviors get interpreted sometimes or, or judged so differently.

[B]

Yes. And there's also research backing up this gender bias that you just mentioned. Women and men were not being measured with the same stick or, you know, we are being measured with different bars. So when a woman, you know, speaks up or raises her voice or says, I don't agree, usually they can be associated with being either too much or too intense or too bossy. At the same time, if they show up as very nice or kind, they might be stigmatized as too weak to lead. Right. And I've noticed that there's a lot of energy being wasted internally in women trying to find this balance between not being perceived as too much or too bosy and not too weak to lead. Right. Especially talking about the workplace. So I think that's part of my work, supporting women to understand that there's a waste of energy and a waste of inner resources being used trying to find their place in the room. Still, I would recommend still, do the best you can and still show up. I think compassion is about showing up, even though you will be measured or you will perceive differently in the room. And I think that's why also everybody, not only women, but also men, need to be more aware about this gender bias, because even women have this gender bias. That's interesting, right? Not only men have internalized this preconceptions, but also women, because we are also living in the same world and we observe our mothers, for example, or our grandparents or our grandmother in the same relational dynamics. So we tend to reproduce them unconsciously as women. So I think this is cathedral work, Stan. When I think of compassion as cathedral work, I think that we're laying the stones right now for a huge building where we might not see the whole building finished, but still it's worthwhile laying the stones with women leaders. I think it's exactly the same. We need more women making great decisions, protecting their communities, protecting causes. There's so much space that needs to be taken and this is going to probably take a lifetime of many of us, but it's still worth it. It's still worth, I hope to see my daughter or if I have ever grandchildren experiencing workplaces differently. That's part of my vision. How can I contribute during my lifetime to workplaces where women feel equally entitled to make changes and make the impact that they want to make and lead strategically and, you know, use their voice and feel part of the room without trying to regulate themselves all the time. So that's why the system needs to be reshaped. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. There's a lot of energy that's expended on that very, what feels like a very delicate balance. And often men in the workplace perhaps aren't having to expend that sort of energy. I mean, sometimes men can be actually very, very difficult and you know, the problem, end of aggression or something like that, and they're just sort of seen as being kind of men or maybe even seen as good leaders because of it or something. And they're not having to really think about that delicate balance that you describe that women are thinking about all the time. I mean, in some ways, men need to perhaps work on the tender compassion side of the ledger and women on the fists compassion or self compassion side of the ledger to bring in some of that balance.

[B]

Absolutely. In the same way that women are suffering from, you know, having difficulties expressing anger, healthy anger. I also see over and over also in my coaching practice, you know, male leaders struggling with showing their tender aspect and understanding. You know, I mean, many of my clients come with this question, like, I'm feeling all of this, what do I do with this? Or I feel sad and sadness Sounds like an alarm, like something that needs to be minimized or avoided. Especially in the workplace when someone makes them really concerned or sad. And part of also, I think the education of the future generations of leaders hopefully includes not only teaching about strategy and numbers and finance and Roy, but also understanding that the highest impact will come from, you know, self regulation, from co regulation and from being deeply connected with all of our human aspects, the feminine and the masculine aspects we all have inside actually, regardless your gender. Right. Because these energies are actually living inside all of us and they need each other. So we need, you know, the strength, we need the motivation, we need the presence to make changes and at the same time we want to be a caring force. So how we integrate this as leaders, that shows up in, for example, how we treat an employee that is struggling, how we give feedback, even when it's difficult feedback, but that needs to be given. It's how I show up when there is uncertainty. I mean, I work with companies that have had very difficult layoffs and restructuring processes. That means people have fear of losing their jobs. They feel that the uncertainty, the financial uncertainty. So how do you lead in the middle of chaos, in the middle of uncertainty? The quality of your leadership comes from how you connect with your own vulnerability, whether you're a man or a woman. And it comes also from understanding that vulnerability doesn't mean weakness. Obvious as it sounds, but it's not weakness. And still in the workplace, vulnerability is seen as something that needs to be avoided or hidden or that it's probably not going to get you where you want to go as a leader.

[A]

Well, speaking of vulnerability and yeah, I hope it's okay to sort of ask because it's something you posted on Instagram yesterday. You have a very, a wonderful Instagram account. I'll put the, the link to that in the show. Notes for people to, to go and check it out and so on. But, but I was, I noticed you, you were talking about being courageous on the outside when you were interacting and at a meeting and doing your thing, but then very self critical on the inside. And I just wondered what could you sort of tell us a bit more about what was happening there for you?

[B]

Sure. I think this is an experience that many women leaders can relate with because in the end of the day there are many women leaders doing a great job out there, leading huge teams, are making really tough decisions or speaking in big scenarios. So there's this inner conflict, silent conflict between showing others or even performing in a way that really allows us to create the impact in the world we want to create. And at the same time, there's this silent inner voice when we come back home that says, did I do it right? Wasn't I too much? Or maybe I should rewrite this report 10 times to make sure that it's acceptable or that it's not rejected. So it's a little bit about this inner waste of energy that I was mentioning before that is tied to the voices of self criticism, which again, from my experience working with women, it comes from internalized voices of criticism that we heard from parents or from significant others or from teachers in childhood. So a great part of my work sometimes is helping clients understand where those internalized voices of criticism come from because they have been internalized as my own. So I truly believe that it's me, you know, improving this report. But in the end of the day is this voice that is telling me that I'm never going to be enough. So part of our work with women leaders is giving their compassionate voice, their inner compassionate voice, more space to express themselves and just to balance the other inner parts, basically. So at this struggle that I was depicting through my post is a struggle that I have myself many times and that I observe so often with my clients. And people smile when, especially women smile when they notice that we are also caught in that inner confrontation or even conflict. And that's also part of what wastes our energy.

[A]

Yes, it's very familiar, very recognizable for people, isn't it? When they hear you share a story like that, they're like, mm, yep, I can really relate to that as well. And, and self criticism is such a funny thing. It's, there's a range of different versions of it. Sometimes it's more the self doubting, isn't it that, did I do that right? And so on. Sometimes it's the, it is more the self attacking, you know, like, you know, you stuff that up or you did that badly or you know, there's a, there's a range of different. But we often hold on to it as if it's somehow really a useful thing or we have certain fears of letting it go. What, what are your thoughts there about, I guess the role of compassion, but also self compassion in leadership and for women leaders.

[B]

Many conversations are coming to my mind right now as I hear your question, because one of the limiting beliefs behind not wanting to let go our voices of self doubt or self criticism is that if I do not treat myself harshly, I'm never going to achieve anything. I'm not going to succeed. I'm not Going to be loved. I'm not going to grow in my career. One of the strategies that I usually use in those situations is letting the person explore that that self critical voice has really good intentions. Actually, even though they're using very uncomfortable methods or using a ton of voice or a language that is so hurtful, in the end of the day, that self critical voice has a good intention. They want to support us to get where we want to get. So the question is, how can you still get where you want to get through a different path? And I think therapists are the ones that lend their compassionate voice so that the person continues to hold their vision and their values and where they want to get as a mother, as a parent, as a professional. Using a language in an affectionate tone of voice. You know, Paul Gilbert did a lot of research about the importance of the emotional tone of this inner voices so that you feel supported and you have to go really, really slowly in this deconstruction process because many of these people are not used to hearing a soft, warm, affectionate voice inside of themselves. And you know, raising the volume of that inner affectionate voice is also part of our work in therapy, for example. So I think we need to work a lot on deconstructing those limiting beliefs behind performance equals self doubt and being really harsh on ourselves.

[A]

Because what do you find shifts, I suppose, when compassion and self compassion become part of the culture, what shifts in terms of the emotional climate or the relationships or the way that people can sustain themselves?

[B]

So when someone works on their own self compassion, let's say a leader, it's almost inevitable that this has at some point a ripple effect in the room. Because when you talk to yourself, as a good friend would do, usually you do not see mistakes as something that defines you forever. You understand that a mistake is something we all do because we're human beings, for example, right? So your relationship with mistakes shows up in the way, for example, you give feedback to an employee or a colleague that is having a hard time with performance or that did something wrong. So for me, like the, the building block of compassion in the workplace or psychological safety is exploring your own relationship with shame, your own relationship with power, with your inner authority, with your inner critical voices, with fear and with mistake. Because when you work on this, you will have more space to co design microcultures of safety and belonging, microcultures of support, where also growth mindset is in the center. A growth mindset says, okay, we don't know everything or we failed in this project. But what can we learn from this. Rather than looking at who's guilty, we're looking at, how can I help better? How can I serve you better as a leader next time? Or what can we all learn from what happened in our last project? It's a complete change of mindset happening in the room when you have compassion as a building block and a shared language. For me, something beautiful that happens over and over when I observe compassionate leaders working from this perspective is that the language changes in the team and the language, you know, your communication is the glue of culture. So the way we communicate with each other, what we decide to say or we leave unsaid, what we reward, what we punish, that creates culture. I always like to say that culture. If you want to know what's the culture like of a company or of a team, ask your people, how do they feel on Sunday evening about Monday morning? That feeling on Sunday evening about what's going to happen Monday morning that tells you what kind of culture that person belongs to or works for.

[A]

And all of those little bits and pieces, they really are the building blocks of that cathedral, aren't they, that you were talking about, where we are. I. I think we are moving in that direction. It is a long arc, as you say, but, you know, these are all the building blocks of the cathedral that really is a kind of a compassionate culture and community and environment in the workplace. Well, Natalia Saro, thank you for all of this stuff that you've been telling us about. I will include your various links and your website and that sort of thing in the show notes, of course, so people can. Can be in touch. But also thank you for being with me on Compassion in a T shirt.

[B]

Thank you, Stan. It was great and hope to see you again anytime soon.

[A]

Yes, let's hope so. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.