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Compassion in a T-Shirt
Exploring Life’s Little Secrets and Compassion | Emma Waddington & Chris McCurry
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome back to Compassion in a T shirt. Today I'm really pleased to be joined by Dr. Emma Waddington and Dr. Chris McCurry, psychologists, writers and the voices behind the podcast Life's Dirty Little Secrets. Emma and Chris explore the quieter parts of being human. The thoughts and feelings people often keep to themselves, the things we don't always say out loud. Alongside the podcast, they've also written thoughtful books for children and families, helping make sense of big emotions in a clear and compassionate way. What I really enjoyed about this conversation was the sense of meeting them as fellow travellers in this podcast space. There was a lot of warmth, thoughtfulness and honesty in the way they spoke about their work, their learning and the people they sit alongside. This was a wide ranging, reflective conversation about secrets, compassion and what can change when we feel understood rather than judged. I really enjoyed it and I think you will too. And so I bring you Dr. Emma Waddington and Dr. Chris McCurry. Doctor Emma Waddington and Dr. Chris McCurry, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [01:25]
B
Thank you so much.
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C
Yes, thank you very much.
- [01:28]
A
It's wonderful to have you where we're sort of fellow travelers, I guess, in the podcast world and with some similar guests, actually, Robin Walzer and Stephen Hayes and Russell Colts and perhaps others. So I thought it would be great to connect and have a bit of a chat. But before the podcast, I guess before the books as well, how did the two of you first come to. To work together and, and what was it really that kind of made you think, oh, you know, yes, this is something worth pursuing and building upon.
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C
Goodness. Well, do you want to go? You go. Sure.
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B
Was it spring of 2011? 2011? Emma emailed me. She was living in London at the time and she had just read my first book, parenting your anxious child with mindfulness and Acceptance. And she was interested in learning more about my take on acceptance and commitment therapy. So she contacted me and said, hey, you know, let's talk. So we started Skyping days of Skype and, and just, it was just a great, you know, relationship from the get go, just talking about cases and therapy. And then she got me to London in 2013 to do my very first international workshop, which was fabulous. And, and the second child had just been born and she had just been informed that were moving to Singapore. So it was a crazy time in her life. And, and then over time we just. Yeah, she invited me to join her with some books that she was invited to write and then I got an invitation to write some books and invited her along. So it's, it's been just a lovely collaboration and she got the idea for the podcast and I was like, what's the podcast? Found out very quickly. So, yeah, it's just been delightful. In all those years we've been in the same city three times.
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C
Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy.
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B
But we'll be together in a couple of weeks. I'll be going to Singapore with my wife to get some workshops.
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C
Yes. Can't wait. Can't wait.
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A
It's so amazing, isn't it? The modern world, it's. It can feel sometimes like a double edged sword because we have the, the wonderful opportunity to meet people who we really gel with, you know, from all around the world and, and make friends and so on. And, and yet on the other hand, we never get to really sort of be actually in the room with them sometimes. And mind you, you've, you've certainly managed to collaborate across various projects in a way that, that's really made the most out of what. Yeah. What was a kind of profound relationship from the start. You sort of bounced off each other very, very nicely right from the start.
- [04:51]
B
It's great chemistry.
- [04:53]
C
Yes. Chris is tremendously generous, which helps and patient. So that, that helps a lot with. I remember when I first, I was, gosh, three years out. Yeah. I finished my postgraduate training in 2007 and I was working with children and adolescents and families. And at the time in London, I mean, ACT was so new. The first conference in acceptance and commitment therapy, which is the model that we both use, was in 2005 in London. And it was kind of like a, you know, a dirty little secret. If you did act, everybody was doing CBT and I, I came across Chris's book and I was doing ACT on the side and I, I remember reading the book and going, wow, this is, I need to be doing this. And so, yeah, I reached out to Chris and I said, you, have you ever run any parent groups based on this? And he was, no, but I'd love to hear more. And it was just such an incredibly open. And that's what's been relationship ever since. He's just such a enthusiastic participant. He is open to many of my crazy ideas, including our podcast. So it's just been, yeah, it's been really lovely and I learned so much from him.
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A
You were, you were both working as psychologists in your own right, I guess, at the start. And Emma, do you mind if I just read some, read something out from your website. Would that be okay?
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C
Yes, of course.
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A
You write, the greatest privilege of my work is to get to see people close up. I'm reminded that every one of us is the same. We all want to feel loved. We suffer. Suffer with the hurt and rejection and want to feel seen, soothed, and understood. We wear many armors, but underneath, we are all woven together in a great web of humanity with threads of love, fear, and vulnerability. And I just love that. I think that's. And I so agree with it, I guess, is more to the point, you know, like, when I read that, I thought. Yes. You know, sort of thing.
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B
What.
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A
Can you elaborate there on your thoughts or feelings about the privilege, really, of the work that we do?
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C
Yeah. Yes. Gosh, I haven't read that in a while. I like it. Yeah, I like. Was a while back. Yeah, it is good. I have to pull it out again. Yes, I do think it's such a privilege because so often we feel alone in our pain and our suffering and we hide so much of it. And yet there I am sitting, you know, every day, you know, for a few hours a day, where I hear people's pain and I can see how connected we are. And a lot of what people are hiding is what I'm carrying or what the next client is carrying. Like, we are very interconnected in our suffering. Belonging to belonging, you know, just is. Is, you know, in our DNA. And yet we feel that somehow if we show those parts, we will get rejected and won't be loved anymore. And getting to see it means that I feel validated, because what I carry feels so similar. I remember when I was training many moons ago, I remember sitting with a client, and they were really struggling, and I remember thinking, but I get it. Like, I could be you, and you're carrying all these diagnoses, and, you know, you're on medication, and yet everything you're sharing, I understand deeply. And at the same time, it was more or less the same time where I came across act. And it was such a. What's the word I'm looking for? It was like a coming home when I spent. When I discovered acceptance and commitment therapy. Because it's not about being different and being, you know, better than or knowing more than your clients. Because I always felt like I didn't really know more. And I still feel that. That I'm on a journey with them. I'm, you know, helping them see things that they may not be seeing, but not because I have some, you know, phenomenal wisdom, but because I'm looking at it from A different perspective. I'm not inside their experience. I'm outside their experience the same way, you know, somebody else could tell me about, you know, what's hard for me in a way that's really useful because they're outside my experience. So, so it is a privilege. It is, it is a privilege to get to have those conversations with my clients and, and any other human who chooses to share some of their, you know, hurts. And it's also a gift because it helps me along the road too. No, I'm not.
- [10:17]
A
I wondered whether in a way, you know, sort of working in collaboration with Chris too is a similar. There's a, there's a sort of something at play there about the common humanity and doing this together and sort of feeling, feeling heard and seen and supported, which allows for creativity perhaps as well to, to, to flourish. You know, that rather than kind of doing it on your own.
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C
Oh, 100%. I, I wouldn't have done. I, yeah, 100%. I think what, what is very wonderful about Chris and I is that I feel completely safe with, with him. So I can do a piece of work, I can write something and I can think it's really pants, but I'm gonna send it anyway. And Chris is obviously very kind, but he never says that it's pants.
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B
Point to me what that even meant. Yes, I'm learning all her.
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A
Yes, I think I know what it means, but yeah, it's not good.
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C
Not good. Yeah, not good. But yes, you're right, that relationship means that feels safe. And the creativity can, because you can take risks, you can say something that isn't quite, you know, complete is a work in progress that safety allows, I think for me, certainly for creativity to flourish.
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A
Chris, I think Emma's already sort of mentioned the phrase dirty little secrets. It was interesting because you said it. I think Emma, with respect to act in a way, and I had wondered about that, that actually we have certain dirty little secrets, which are things that we feel very self conscious or even ashamed about that we sort of hide away. But sometimes the things we might do to address those are kind of like little secrets too. You know, there's sort of where we're offering our, the people we're working with, we're offering them little secrets about, you know, how they might reduce their suffering. But Chris, I was going to sort of. Yeah, life's Dirty Little Secrets. I mean, it's a strong title really to the podcast. What do you mean there by saying secrets? I guess. And, and, and why do you think really that so much Suffering maybe sits in the things that, that we don't say out loud.
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B
Well, we could have called it life's ironies or life's human foibles, but you're right, it wouldn't be as strong as calling it dirty secrets. We want to get people's attention. It's all about the things that are part of our common humanity that we all carry around. You know, I mean, part of our. One of our slogans is, as it were, is we're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides. And so we're the only ones who are carrying this burden, thought or this feeling, whatever. And by, by talking about it, we, we access that common humanity and we get to articulate it. You know, am I angry or am I frustrated? Am I ashamed or am I guilty? We just did an episode on guilt and shame, you know, talking about the difference between two. So by talking about these things, we can, you know, we can begin to edit and rewrite our scripts and our old stories. And we've just been really privileged and blessed to be able to talk to all these really smart people who are exploring these issues, coming up with ways of describing them, and helping people carry those burdens and live valuable lives in spite of the fact that we all have stuff. But I really think it's important to, to get that stuff out there. I, I, I. There's this line that's attributed to Jung that whatever is rejected from the self appears in the world as an event. So that's stuff that we kind of, like, suppress, will sort of hop out over here when we least expect it. Like, hey, world, look at this thing that Chris thinks and feels and does, you know, And I'm like, oh, my God, did I really say that? But most people don't even notice. Or if they do, they go, yeah, I do that too. So I think it's. I think if we're helpful to people, it's because people can relate to the subjects that we're addressing, and they could benefit from the wisdom of our guests and the way we can help people feel less alone.
- [15:22]
A
Yes, they're able to relate to it, that they're able to feel that same validation, I suppose, that Emma alluded to before, that even as therapists, we can feel that validation. But certainly sharing our secrets, as tricky as that is, and as much kind of courage as that takes to be able to hear people discussing it on the podcast, it creates that feeling of validation. But then also, there's. There's the encouragement piece, too, because a lot of the episodes talk about, you know, perhaps what to do as well. What might be helpful, I guess, in, in that sort of sense. I mean, after all the conversations that you've, you've had on the podcast, I mean, have there been things that have genuinely just surprised you most about people or about those inner lives that, that you're referring to?
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B
Anything surprise you, Emma?
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C
I think the thing that's surprised me, or actually there's another expression, tickled me is very. I don't know if you guys talk about tickling in that way, but something that is just how generous people are. Like I'm every. It's. We're going to be celebrating our fourth year in a couple of months time and over six, no, 70 podcast episodes. And I'm so touched by people's generosity to come on, you know, spend time with us, share their knowledge, share their resources.
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B
Deal with that glitches.
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C
Yes, that's right. Show us compassion. And that's actually been one of the best parts is to, to, to come, you know, into contact with. Yeah. So much kindness and generosity that I think on a day to day basis we don't necessarily see unless we, we sort of look for it. Sometimes we don't feel that people are particularly generous with us and sort of, you know, help us. But yeah, so boy, people have been so helpful and so supportive of our podcast. Not just our guests, you know, people who have been, you know, helped us to find guests who've introduced us, who thought of us for guests. I mean it's just been a really. Yeah. Community. It's built a community and it feels really good. So that's one of the things that perhaps I didn't expect that I've learned that. Yeah. Makes me happy to be human.
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B
For me it just. Sorry, I was just gonna say for me it just affirms that, you know, we're all just a lovable mess.
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A
A lovable mess.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yes, it is reassuring, isn't it, to know that we're all, all just a lovable mess. I mean, I'm a bit of a one trick pony, but I almost feel like, you know, there's really a compassionate motivation behind all of what you've just described there. You know, that people are coming from a place of kindness and generosity and wanting to be helpful and to try to spread the word really of, you know, kind of in a compassionate sort of a way, I think.
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C
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
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B
A lot of self, self compassion.
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C
Yes.
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A
Yes. That's what we're trying to, trying to kind of get out there isn't it is, is just those flows of compassion for others, you know, from others, for ourselves. What do you think are the costs for people of hide. Keeping these things hidden for themselves? You know, the, the, the, the really tricky feelings that they're having or the thoughts or the, and those, those self conscious sorts of things that you were describing before. What Chris, what, what, what really might be the, the, the cost for, for us, you know, psychologically of, of all of that?
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B
Well, I think it takes a tremendous amount of psychic energy, psychological energy to keep up a false, false, not let people in. I mean, obviously there are people that we shouldn't be letting in. We're not going to go around telling everybody, you know, or airing our dirty laundry in public. And we need to have some discretion about these things. But just, you know, holding tightly onto these subconcepts that may not be very useful. There's a cost in terms of our unwillingness to take chances, to stretch ourselves, get out of our comfort zone. And you know, there's that underlying fear that we're going to be found out. You know, the, you know, the whole imposter phenomenon which we did an episode on. And there's no, there's no getting free of that. Like so many of these things that we talk about on the podcast. We're just going to have to learn how to hold it lightly and when it shows up, say oh yeah, that again. And not let it, you know, get in the way of what we need to do. Just. Okay, got it. You know, I see you. Okay. And then proceed with the value, direction that we chose. So yeah, it, anything that gets in the way of living the kind of life that we want, you know, that's, that's a tremendous cost sometimes.
- [21:10]
A
Yes, that, that fear of being exposed, I suppose. And, and imposter. Oh, what does Jill Stoddard call it now as opposed to imposter syndrome? Impostorism. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. Jill was on my podcast as well and we had a great chat about, you know, all of that and, and that, that sort of impostorism, but, but also just being exposed for all of, you know, who we, you know, our worst bits or something like that. And, and so we put so much energy into the perception management and the covering of that and not letting people see. And, and we're not necessarily wanting to bear all to everyone. But I guess safeness is the key, isn't it? Is, is the. Can we feel safe enough with someone and kind of sort of ready ourselves with strength and courage and then be able to let a little bit out or a little people a little bit in. You know, just that sort of bit by bit, the key piece there about safeness and Emma, what happens then, like, if we do find someone who is able to meet us with understanding and not judgment or criticism or shaming? I mean, what are the benefits that's there?
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C
I. Can I just back up a little bit before that, because as. As you were talking, I was reminded of a conversation we had with Russell Coates about, you know, men not sharing openly and vulnerably about their experiences. And, you know, as a psychologist, I think we're biased in our belief. We believe that. Or maybe I'll just speak for myself. I would put the entire psychologist community under my. My umbrella, but I think that. I strongly believe that talking is wonderful and that talking about our feelings is important. But in our conversation with Russell, and actually in my conversation with my. My sons, they reminded me that actually not everybody is safe. Like you said, not everybody is okay. You can't go around talking to anybody, which, of course, logically makes sense. But how do we figure out who is? And that's not that simple because it's. It's a risk. We take a risk by sharing with someone who may have certain characteristics that appear to be safe, and sometimes they may not respond exactly as we need it. So I do think that as we're finding the right people to connect with, it could be a bumpy ride, even in that relationship. So I think about it for myself. You know, I have wonderful friends, and sometimes they respond the way I need to, and sometimes they don't. They're not always going to get it right. And that doesn't mean that they're not a good friend. It means that they're lovable and messy, like Chris said. And I think that that's important as a reminder even for me to hear it again, that, you know, we can get it wrong and, you know, say the wrong thing, and that's why repair is so important. And giving each other the benefit of the doubt is so important in relationships because. Because, you know, it is a bumpy road. So. Sorry, I just wanted to put that there. Yeah.
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B
Well, and some people, you know, your. Your best friend may not have the bandwidth that day.
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C
Yes.
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B
To.
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C
Right.
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B
Take in and metabolize and respond to, you know.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Your latest grievance, you know, hurt or something like that.
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C
Yeah. And so I. I do think it's a. Both. And in as much as I do think that we have to do our own work and support ourselves too. We have to be, you know, caring and compassionate towards ourselves so that it's not always an outside in. You know, you're not always reaching out to get the. Your needs met. You can also do like in those moments where, you know, somebody may not be available or, you know, something feels really, really big, we can do, you know, we can give ourselves our own hug and tell ourselves that, you know, we're good humans, we're worthy of love, whatever may be helpful in that moment. And, and that's okay. That doesn't mean that nobody can help us ever. It doesn't mean that people are not available. It means that right now I'm going to help myself and next time or, you know, in a bit maybe I'll reach out to someone else. I think there's no recipe. Basically, in a way, yes, there's a.
- [26:16]
A
Sort of a wisdom somewhere there that it takes wisdom to be compassionate towards others, to sort of know what to do or how to offer help, what will be most helpful, what is it that person really needs right now, and so on. But it kind of takes a sort of a wisdom to receive compassion as well and sort of being able to discern, you know, what is it that I need and who might be there for me and where are they at at the moment. And the. Lots of it's sort of, and let alone self compassion where we're both the, the offerer and the receiver of, of our own compassion and being able to sort of approach ourselves with understanding rather than judgment.
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C
Yes, yes. Yeah, that's quite a bit of skill there. And, and also the, the. I remember Brene Brown talking about compassion in a way that, you know, knowing someone's limits is also very compassionate. You know, knowing when, when, when someone can't help you because that's not, you know, something they can do. They can't understand you or they can't. She was talking about it in reference to a study that was done with women who were suffering domestic violence. And she talks about how the women who had the most compassion towards their partners were the ones that were more likely to leave.
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A
Yeah, I remember her. She has a great interview where she talks about compassion and boundaries, I think. Yeah, that's right. So, so important, isn't it? She says something like, you know, with, with boundaries, I can tread that water forever. Or, you know, something like that. And, and the boundaries are actually the bit that helps make that compassion sustainable.
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C
That's right, yeah. Which is kind of, you know, most people think about compassion they think about this endless generosity and patience and. But actually that's not possible and that's not what it actually is. Compassion does have boundaries. Because, for example, in that example that the Brene Brown is using with and you know, abusers who just cannot do better, then you. Extending compassion where you stay is actually not the best thing. But if you recognize that they are limited, they cannot do better for whatever reasons, you know, their history, their circumstances, their alcoholism, they just can't stop doing what they're doing that's harming you and the relationship, then you have to leave. And so the most compassionate thing is meeting them where they're at.
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A
Compassion being sort of the full circle of. Of self and others and trying to reduce or sort of alleviate and prevent suffering.
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C
Yeah, yeah, but I didn't answer your original question, so my apologies. Yes. So I will come back to that, which was that, you know, what is it like when we do meet someone who, you know, does hold us and listens to us and hears us out? I think it's incredibly powerful if we are sharing something that is deeply shameful. You know, I think it feels incredibly connecting. That's that vulnerability piece where, you know, if somebody meets you when you're vulnerable, you do feel safe and heard and just like a big warm hug. I think it's very powerful.
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B
It's like going back to the idea of a holding environment, you know, young kids, where things are scary but safe.
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C
Yeah.
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B
So you can be who you are, you know, you can be a three year old tantrum. You know, even though you look 73, people aren't going to reject you.
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C
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
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A
Actually, Chris, I was gonna sort of pivot a little bit at this moment and you've given me a little segue there in terms of kids, I suppose, because both of you have done quite a bit of work with children and the books that you've written together.
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B
What.
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A
One of the series is the ACT workbook series for kids. And I wondered if you, Chris, could tell us a little bit about that little collection of books there and. Yeah, what's that all about?
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B
Well, those are our most recent books and they're workbooks, so you're meant to read them and do exercises and things. And they really sprung from the creative mind of Emma, who came up with the name for the first protagonist in I Love It Just In Case.
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A
Which.
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B
Is all about anxiety. So what makes these workbooks different from all the other ones out there? Our opinion is that they're story driven. And so, you know, Some of the workbooks have a character like, you know, Gremlin or, you know, the Anxiety Gremlin or whatever. But these three books that we've written so far and we'd like to write more, are all have a character, one or two children who are going through an experience a day, even maybe just a couple of hours, where they're experiencing some strong emotion, like in the case of. Just in case it's anxiety. And then we have the glum twins who are sad because their birthday party isn't going the way they expected to. And then Max Cross, who's chronically frustrated, angry. And so the kids go through these experiences and they learn from them, and they get wise counsel from adults. And the children who are reading the book, hopefully with their parents, go through some exercises where they learn about emotional vocabulary and some act concepts like, you know, diffusion, you know, acceptance and things like that. And then there's a piece at the end for the grownups to talk about how they can support their children when they're experiencing these strong emotions. So we had a great deal of fun writing them.
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C
Yeah, we did.
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B
Like I said, I hope we can write some more because we want to write one on frustration with a character named Noah Vale.
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C
Okay.
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A
I must admit that the names of the characters really sort of popped out for me, too, and make so much sense and make the whole thing just really engaging, you know, right from the front cover.
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B
That's the idea. Yeah.
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A
I liked. Actually, I'm interested to hear that there might be more coming, but certainly in Compassion Focused therapy, which is sort of often where I'm coming from, we might think of anger, anxiety and sadness as sort of the big three. You know, they have other sort of dimensions, you know, in and around all of that. But, yeah, really helpful to start, I think, with those. Those kind of big three emotions.
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B
Yeah, Well, I mean, we're hoping people will, you know, pestered the. The publisher, Jessica Kingsley, to demand more of these.
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A
Nice. Very nice name drop there, Chris. We will, we will.
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C
We'll do it.
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B
Yes. Sort of ask for more. Yeah. Send cards and letters.
- [34:47]
C
Yes.
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B
Demanding, demand. Yes, we write more. Yeah, we want to do one on jealousy.
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A
Oh, yes.
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B
I haven't come up with the name for that one yet.
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C
Yeah, yeah, that be really good fun.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. And. And Emma, there's also. There's also the series, Big Issues for Little People, I think, too, which is, I think, again, written together, and it's more about kind of coping with certain situations as they might develop, like the separation of one's parents, but also topics around identity and diversity and so on. Tell us a little bit about that book series too.
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C
Yes, I remember we got a request to write a book. Originally it was a request to write a book with. Was it 100 questions that children asked?
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B
Questions, yeah. That children might ask their parents.
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C
Yeah, it was crazy. And we thought, how are we going to do that? And that got us talking about what feels more realistic and more useful to parents. And it was very interesting because at the time we've never actually written that book, but at the time we were playing with a, with an idea of a book on what is normal. Because a lot of the questions that we, you know, I would get and Chris and I were sort of sharing this is, you know, parents not knowing whether their child's behavior was normal. Especially teens who can do some really crazy normal things. And so we were gonna, we were thinking of a book on what is normal. And then this opportunity came about with sort of how to navigate questions that our children may ask. And so we sort of talking to the publishers came up with this idea that how about we group them into topics as opposed to one big sort of question manual. And yes, so there's four of them and the topics are like you said, quite different. The most popular one was the one on why don't we live together anymore questions about separation. And each sort of as a question. And there's beautiful illustrations.
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A
That's another big part of it.
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C
It's beautiful illustration, beautiful illustrations. And so each sort of double page has a question and then it has the story again. It's story led a situation with a child and so it's a little bit of a context and then the question and then there's guidance on follow up questions. So it's about setting up the conversation with the parent and then at the bottom of each page there's an explanation as to why the child may be asking this question, what this means for them and sort of validating the parent because especially the one, you know, why don't we live together anymore? Is incredibly difficult. Often difficult, not always situation to navigate with children and making sense of their, you know, how to answer some of the questions that will inevitably come with, you know, as much skill as we can. And often there isn't an answer and it's, you know, or perhaps the answer, you know, is quite complicated, too complicated for a child and how to make it accessible to them. So yeah, so those were again super fun to do together, particularly in, in.
- [38:33]
B
The Divorce Separation book, you know, making sure that the parents understood that what may seem like a very selfish question on the part of the child, you know, like, you know, one of the questions is, what about the cat? You know, or, you know, am I going to, you know, go to the same school or whatever? It may be where the parent is in the throes of, you know, very traumatic situation, and they may be thinking that the child is focusing on something quite trivial, but it's not trivial to the child, and we try to convey that to the parent that there are no abnormal questions. There are, you know, these. These come from, you know, a place of real confusion and pain and worry on our child, and they may be manifesting in this particular way, but there's some deep waters there.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah, it's really amazing how the use of story and also the use of illustrations, so evocative and also aid, I think, in sort of empathy, really, or something like that. If I look at the. The COVID of that book and the little fellow is outside by himself kind of with the dog kicking a ball into the. Into the soccer net or whatever, and. And mum's in. In the kitchen kind of, you know, doing the dishes, but everyone's looking a bit sad, including the dog. And so there's this sort of really powerful, you know, boom right from the. The start of. Of just sort of being able to empathize in a way with all of the people that are going through this. And. And I can only imagine that, yeah, that sort of unfolds as the story unfolds and is as much for the parents, maybe, as it might be for the children as well.
- [40:30]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Just one last thing. I was thinking with all these books that we've written, there is something about, you know, making room for what is. You know, our default often is to try and fix and make things right.
- [40:46]
B
Feel better, make things go away, you know. Yeah, don't feel that. Don't think that.
- [40:52]
C
Yeah, and that's. Goodness. If that was possible, then we wouldn't be needing to write these books and go to therapy and, and all the other things that we do. But that, you know, it really is getting comfortable, feeling uncomfortable, as Jill said in our podcast, because that is hard. It's hard to have these big feelings. It's hard to disappoint. I always think about how disappointment is one of the hardest things to sit with in your own self and for us as parents to sit with our children, disappointment. And often, you know, there's a lot of it. Life can feel very unfair to children, can feel cruel, can feel Wrong. And as parents getting better at sitting with our own disappointment that we may be seen to have let them down, whether we did or we didn't. And, you know, to hold that, you know, lightly, with compassion.
- [41:53]
A
There it is. Yes, exactly.
- [41:56]
B
Um, the, the.
- [41:58]
A
You, you, you work as a therapist. You both work. Well, I think maybe, Chris, you might be retired from therapy work.
- [42:03]
B
I've retired from my clinical practice.
- [42:05]
A
Yeah, from the clinical practice. But, but, but therapy, the, the. The podcast, the writing, how do you find those all kind of contributing maybe to your. Your own just growing understanding of. Of what?
- [42:26]
C
Goodness. Wow. Well, I mean, I am so privileged. I love my job. I love hearing stories, hearing people's lives about. I'm just sort of. Yes. Just curious and feel very validated that, you know, so, so many of us live this life in our own messy ways. So I do love my job and I do feel that the work that we do on the podcast helps me because it's more stories, it's more ideas about how we are as humans. Often I learn a lot from our guests and from Chris about how to help us navigate some of these choppy waters. So I do feel that I'm always learning and always reminded of how difficult it is. And sometimes I feel like how little I still know about how to best help humans and how much there is out there to learn, to do, to talk about. So I do feel that I'm always learning. There's plenty more to do. I'll never feel like I've ever reached. I don't think.
- [43:57]
A
I was thinking. Yesterday I was interviewing Rob Brockman, who's a schema therapist and schema therapy trainer here in Australia, and I sort of quietly thought to myself, oh, you know, having a sort of trying to have a podcast like this, it's almost like getting sort of weekly supervision or weekly one on one training from people of all different persuasions. And it is amazing how much there is to learn and to.
- [44:22]
C
Yes, yes, there is. And how to hold it lightly. Right. Because it's quite easy when you see so much to learn to think, oh, my goodness, you know, I don't have enough because we're always comparing. Like, that's, that's the inherent nature of humans that we are always comparing. And we're not comparing up. Like, we're not going, whoa, I'm so great. I know so much more than that person. You know, we're always comparing, you know, to those that know more than us or that appear to know more than us, and we're always, you know, a Step behind. But that's also what drives us. We just have to be gentle.
- [45:01]
B
It wouldn't, it wouldn't be one of our life sturdy little secret podcasts without my quoting Mark Twain.
- [45:08]
C
Yes, he's brilliant.
- [45:11]
B
Yes, Mark Twain said, comparison is the death of joy.
- [45:16]
A
Yeah. Gosh.
- [45:18]
B
But we do it, we do it because there's survival value, you know, and, but it's, it's corrosive.
- [45:29]
A
Yeah. Social comparison really sort of kind of wears us all a bit thin, doesn't it?
- [45:35]
B
Sometimes.
- [45:35]
A
And it is exactly. Chris, given your, all your experience and, and so on and what you perhaps learned over the years, I mean, what, what actually helps people to maybe develop a more compassionate relationships, compassionate relationship with the parts of themselves that, that maybe they worry about or worried will be exposed or they try to keep hidden. I mean, how might they temper some of that social comparison or various other things and just have that kind of understanding, compassionate relationship with all of themselves? Big question there.
- [46:18]
B
Sorry.
- [46:18]
A
I mean that's.
- [46:20]
B
Well, one of the many things that I've learned from Emma is she's taught me about Krista Neff and some of her ideas about self kindness versus judgment. So that would be one thing to. Again, we're not going to be able to turn off the judgment machine, but to be able to go, oh yeah, I'm having one of those thoughts again. As opposed to, you know, taking it as literally true that common humanity, peace versus isolation, you know, I'm not the only person who thinks this about themselves and everybody else is like marching along. Maybe I can too. And then that whole mindfulness piece over the over identification in act, you know, we try to go in and mess with the thinking around, you know, saying things like I am angry, as I might say I am Chris, where we take that on as this is who I am as opposed to I happen to be having this feeling of anger at the moment, which is more, you know, awkward. We don't really talk that way, but if we can in at least in session, maybe start using that kind of verbiage, it helps us step back a little bit from it and recognize that this feeling or this thought is a transient experience that I happen to be having at the moment. And I don't have to over identify with it. I don't have to let it be unduly influential on my acts, you know, about to take. So I, I think. And then, you know, telling people, you just, you know, you gotta hold that.
- [48:00]
C
That's true. Even when it feels really heavy, like it's sitting on you yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:07]
B
It's, it's, it's a thought, it's a feeling. And it, you know, it comes and it goes. If we, if we let it, if we don't. I mean one of the metaphors that I use, I keep a piece of broken glass office because I have a morbid fear of broken glass. And I'll take it out and I'll put it in my hand and I'll show it to my client. I'll say, now this freaks me out, but I'm willing to do this because I'm trying to help you. I have a goal here. But if I can hold this piece of glass, it's a jagged piece of wine glass that I've got. It's really wicked looking. And I said, I can hold this in my hand and it's not going to hurt me. I don't like it, but I can like go and put it in the trash. But if I grip it, it's gonna hurt. So I can have this experience and go, I don't like this. I'm not comfortable deal with it as I need to deal with it. And that may be just waiting for it to go away. But if I start gripping it going, why is this happening? This is so unfair. It's, it's going to, it's going to hurt and I'm stuck there. I'm not, I'm not moving on in my life.
- [49:22]
A
Yeah, no, that's, that's beautifully summarized. There's, there's, there are a lot of secrets or little tricks, aren't there, that sort of techniques that we can really start to bring into our lives to, to feel soft, just to soften some of the suffering there. It is a part of life, as they say, but just those ways to soften it just a little. And you remind me too of just the role of, I guess, exposure or something like that. I mean often self care almost triggers off threat system, doesn't it? In a way. People, people are often fearful of being kinder to themselves. And so to be able to just little step by little step, kind of expose ourselves a bit to what it's like to, to treat ourselves with kindness and compassion.
- [50:13]
B
Oh yeah, as well. That's, that's was my first experience with act, you know, decades ago when I was learning about it at the University of Nevada, little Steve Hayes. And I thought, you know, if I'm not writing myself all the time, God only knows what terrible things I might do. And the idea of sort of like letting go of that oppressive, you know, you know, overactive, superego, whatever you want to call it, you know, it was quite a scary thing. That's like, you know, I got a ride hurt on my thinking. I got to keep myself in check here and I learned to trust myself a little bit.
- [51:05]
A
Well, I will, I will let you both go in a moment and, and I really appreciate you offering, generously offering the time to me as well. I guess my last little question perhaps to Emma and then to Chris maybe. But yeah, if there is someone listening, you know, right now and perhaps they're carrying something there, a quiet sense of shame or perhaps a private little fear or some other secret, I mean, what would you most want them to hear?
- [51:40]
C
I sometimes tell clients that, that I've heard so many stories and they're often very similar that I really doubt that whatever they're carrying isn't carried by another human, if not many other humans, that they really are not alone. They really are not alone. And that can be sometimes counterintuitive because we're so ashamed that we can only think that we are the only one carrying that. But, but to know that it's, it's highly unlikely, highly unlikely that what you're carrying isn't carried by many and isn't carried by many and hidden by many, but both are true. You know, we do have, you know, that's the function of shame that we, you know, we feel deeply ashamed. We think we're a bad person for something that we did or something that we thought or, or something that happened to us. But that shame isn't necessarily due to us being bad, but it's due to what we think others will think of us if we share it. And so by sharing it with somebody who's safe and for them not to bulk and not to be horrified, which is if you share it with the right person, is likely to be your experience, you will see that actually you're not alone. And that's why therapy can be a very good context because we are trained in such a way that we as therapists respond in a compassionate, holding way to our clients experiences. And yeah, I think just to know that you're not alone, there'll be many that have walked your path and carried the same secrets. Invited comments.
- [53:53]
A
Chris, would you add anything for to finish us off?
- [53:58]
B
No, I, I, I think what Emma just said is lovely that you know, until we're replaced by AI chat bots, I think psychotherapists can serve that role of creating that cooling environment that, that safe place where people can take some risks and and, and grow, you know, and that's, that's painful, but you don't, you don't grow within your comfort zone. And, and as somebody once told me, your comfort zone will be there when you get back.
- [54:34]
C
Isn't he great with his quotes?
- [54:36]
A
Yeah.
- [54:38]
C
Unbelievable.
- [54:40]
B
Nothing original, but, you know, I steal from the best.
- [54:45]
C
That's, it's just wonderful. I love it. I always, I, I, yeah, that's, and.
- [54:50]
A
It'S a really, it's a very, yeah, there's, it's, there's a lot of, lot of wisdom there. It, you know, the comfort zone will still be there when you get back, but, you know, maybe there's a way to just venture out a little bit and then return if you need to. I mean, that in a way, that, that, that, that, yes, that's our, that's the sort of secure base, safe haven type stuff, isn't it? You know, in a way, you know, that if we have that part of ourselves that, that feels really safe and calm, we can venture out and return there if we need to. Well, Dr. Emma Waddington and Dr. Chris McCurry. Well, thank you very much for, for sharing all of those words of, words of wisdom. It's been, yeah, it has been really delightful. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. And, and thank you for speaking with me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [55:41]
C
Thank you. It's been fun.
- [55:44]
B
Thank you.