← Compassion in a T-Shirt
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl, and welcome back to Compassion in a T Shirt. Today we're exploring a topic that sits right at the heart of motivational interviewing, but perhaps doesn't get spoken about enough directly, Hope. My guest is Dr. Denise Ernst, psychologist, trainer, and longtime member of the motivational interviewing community, whose recent workshop explored what it means to cultivate hope in. In MI practice. In this conversation, we explore the idea that hope isn't something we install into people, but something we help call forth, something already there, even in moments of despair or self doubt. We talk about deep listening, the fixing reflex change talk, and hope talk. The role of compassion and self compassion, and what it means for practitioners to stay connected to their own wellspring of hope while sitting alongside suffering every day. This was a thoughtful and deeply human conversation and one that I think reaches beyond therapy into how we relate to ourselves, each other, and the world. And so I bring you Dr. Denise Ernst.
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B
Doctor Denise Ernst, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
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C
I want one of the T shirts.
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B
Yes, I'm wearing mine. Of course.
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C
I know, I see. Yeah.
- [01:32]
B
But we recently sort of presented alongside each other. We, we did that presentation. Yeah, there was a few topics, compassion and psychological safety, but also hope. And so, yes, I was, I was excited to get to, to chat to you and maybe just sort of drill down into this, this idea of, of, of hope. What, how, how do you understand hope?
- [01:57]
C
Well, what I've come to in terms of my digging down and, and which by the way, is just a gift of being retired, that I actually have the time to take a deeper dive. And of course, it has been helpful that Bill Miller has written a lot about hope, and I've had several conversations with him about it in relationship to motivational interviewing. But where I've kind of come to is that hope is in the way that we would like to think about it for this. There's a lot of different definitions of hope. And if you look at Bill's book about eight ways to hope, there's all kinds of activities and things that you can do to begin to activate or engage hope. But I actually think about it as a sort of a living energy and a. That it resides alongside things like love, compassion, and empathy, those that are actually energetic forces, if you will, and that, you know, there's work that's been done that looks at that exchange, at that level of energy. It can actually have physiologic changes on, on people, you know, so if you're talking to someone, I'm gonna really misrepresent all of this stuff. But if you're talking to someone that you. That actually with intention, you can come to things like heart rate, your heart rates come together and operate together. So when I think about hope and what we're doing in motivational interviewing, I really think about it at that that's what we're activating in ourselves and in reaching towards others. That it is because it is an energy that we don't know how to measure. We don't understand how to measure. Like we don't understand how to measure love. We can't measure it. We all know it's real, we all know it's there. And we all experience those things. And it's something more that helping people experience hope inside their bodies and inside their relationship is. Is what I'm. I'm thinking of. So it's not like I really hope that I get this final outcome that's out there that I want. It's. There are certainly ways of looking at it that way, but in terms of the underlying what's at work that we're hoping to activate and create and draw forth, if you will, that's how I think of it.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah. Sort of an energy within us, an energy through which we might then engage with the world or bring it with us as we engage with the world. And then something interactional as well, I suppose, with the energy of hope in another person. And I noticed you said to draw forth there. Tell us about that bit of it then. Drawing. Drawing forth hope, I suppose, in another person.
- [05:34]
C
Well, of course, where I started with that was that that's the definition in the book. Is that it? That it is. Hope is not. It's not about creating hope or trying to put hope in someone. It's about calling forth that which is already there. So my thinking on that, not just mine, but I place that hope in the same sort of seed pod as what Rogers called that drive towards wholeness, like inside every individual or everything really is that hope is part of that seed. And I think of it maybe as even the fuel of that drive to become our full potential, to become fully human, to grow. For the tree to grow into a whole tree. It's like there's a. And it's hidden in there. It's sort of in there. And as you can tell, for many people in the world, it never gets activated. They don't reach their potential, they don't grow. I don't know why. You know, we don't know the answer to those kind of questions, but. But we. I do really think that that's where it resides. It's just a no. It's part of our human humanness that is there. So when we're calling forth, that's what we're attempting to do. Just like we're, when we're doing, when we're working in client centered mode where we are trying to create the conditions that allow the person's own internal drive towards wholeness to, to move, to get activated, to take steps to do, to move in that direction, to recognize, to envision their wholeness to begin to grow. So I think it, it lies there and that's what calling forth is about is tap setting the conditions too that, that a person's hope can be nourished.
- [07:47]
B
It's a sort of an optimistic or hopeful way to, to conceptualize it that that hope is there, it's the seeds planted. And sometimes people can really find it difficult perhaps through just personal experiences I guess or things that happen in their lives. That sort of shapes all of that. And sometimes hope is more dormant rather than what we're wanting to do which is to yeah, really try to water the seeds of hope or something. And, and you know that, that it can actually be be called forth or cultivated. And then that becomes. I, I like that idea too. It becomes an energetic part of, of this kind of the self actualization sort of idea that, that if we feel hopeful and can cultivate that then then you know that, that just aids in our ability to, to move, move forward.
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C
You know. And you, you, you look at that and people in our line of work have, have experienced that too that you know, it looks, it is dormant in, in so many people and part of that is what we pay attention to. So part of our learning, and that certainly is one of the learning things that I've learned through my MI skills but is what we pay attention to. So typically people will pay more attention to the agitating things that are there and they, you know, the problem or whatever it is that with, and individuals do that with themselves as well as with others.
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B
If sometimes we can be really sort of caught deep in our threat system and that forces our tent or you know, kind of takes our attention onto the negatives, the dangers and the, the things that could go wrong. Whereas hope is an attentional shift.
- [09:45]
C
It, it is. And trauma functions the same way as the, the sort of threat system, you know, that the, the sort of owning of the trauma traumatization and, and being in that, I mean being sort of caught in that, in that sense of trauma. Trauma. But you do you do hear and see. And we've. I'm assuming you, you will have experienced this too. That, that we aren't Even when people can be deeply buried in that stuff that they can experience a shift. They can and do. It's not a lot up. It's not locked up forever to never be there. It is that, that there. You know, things happen in people's lives where they make a complete 180 and they just go oh, I'm going to go in a different direction. And they have moments of awakening, they have moments of insight. They have moments when they experience something beyond where they, where they were and they're, they're ready to, to turn towards it. And it, it may not ever look like that's going to happen from, from what, what went on right before that. You know, it's like it may, may look completely locked up and boxed up, but it. There, there is always that potential.
- [11:19]
B
And, and it's interesting because you, you emphasize that it, it's, it's difficult for us to, to offer hope or even call forth the hope from. In another unless we're sort of in touch with our own. That, that, that there's a, because even that concept you just described, it's a hopeful concept. It's this idea that, that people can shift, you know, on, on these sort of things. So what, what does it look like there in terms of a practitioner discovering, cultivating their own wellspring of hope?
- [11:53]
C
Well, I think, I mean what I've certainly, what I've learned in the, in the. Because I've been doing workshops in this since 2019 on the, the first ones and that what. The most important thing that people usually walk away from is the time they've actually spent thinking, reflecting on their own hope and, and, and remembering or experiencing or putting themselves, you know, really deeply getting to know and, and, and think about what is, what does give them hope. Because again they get. People get caught in the fast paced, you know, moving forward and it's about the other person and you know that we do that easily and so that spending time really, really reflecting on your own, on your own sense of hope and basically doing the same kind of thing that you would do with a client for yourself. Like, like what gives me hope? What, what is it that I, what is it that I think of as hopeful? And you know, almost when do I experience that overwhelming sense of joy or you know, I mean I know for me, like, like when I am looking at this maple tree outside that, that watching it over time, it, it Gives me tremendous amount of hope because it, it activates that sense because it's so incredibly beautiful and it's so consistent and it keeps coming and it, it flows through and it dies and it comes back and it just, it, the whole. And it, and it just keeps on doing its work. You know, it is, there's, there's just a sense of beauty in that. So everyone is activated by different things. And if you think about this in terms of energy, then, then every, people have different pathways into their own and they just need to understand what is it that is, what is it inside that really is. That does give me hope. When do I notice it? So you're, you're paying attention to that and, and recognizing that in order to be able to do any of the things that we want to do in terms of conveying that energy or putting it out, we, we, we have to, it, it has to be there. I mean, we, you know, it's like we've said about empathy all along the same kind of thing. Like if it's not about feeling empathic, it's about being able to express empathy. And you know, that's why the motivational interviewing skills are so important because we learn how to not just think, oh, I'm a good listener and I feel I'm, I have a lot of empathy. It's, it's not until the client receives that and, and, and understands that and know and, and hears it that it, it becomes therapeutic. And it's the same thing with hope, I think.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah. Yes, I, I've, I, I, I'm. Your, your sort of what you're saying and the little questions you pose. I mean, that, that really got me thinking and reflecting and, and I do feel that in some ways I was a more hopeful person as a younger person than maybe I sometimes feel today. And I do wonder about that. I think it's a little bit to do with loss actually, in a way that the last few years there's been quite a lot of loss. Covid, I guess, was a bit of a beginning of that and then just personal losses along the way. And so it's something that we, I guess, discover and then rediscover and, and it, it does take this concerted effort to, to remain connected with, with this, with this feeling of hope and, and finding you, finding those ways, the, the sort of in nature, as you say, or, or other experiences or in, in sort of the, the good news stories of humanity or whatever, but almost sort of meditating on hope and you know, actively, you know, sort of kind of reminding and discovering and rediscovering. And it's an ongoing process a little bit, you know, as life unfolds.
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C
You know, it's a practice. You know, in Bill's book, Loving Kindness, he talks about the. All the different aspects which I think hope is, and it is in his book there. But it's a, It's a part of that. They're all practices. It is, it is an intentional practice and people have different ways of doing it. I mean, I have yoga and I have meditation that I do regularly, and I, you know, there are several things that I do, including just stuff like this, that are part my hope practice and, And. And that it's paying attention to that and actively looking for. Looking for the, the hope in. In everywhere, you know, making, Making the. Coming to that belief that it is. I mean, that, you know, when we talk about. In. When Carl Rogers we talk about that in training, about how, you know, believing in that people really do have within them that. That desire and that, that, that desire to grow and that desire for wholeness, they. They have it inside them that is hugely powerful and even conveying that, and that also means that we have it and we. That, you know, it's in everybody. And so the, the. The, you know, deepening that sense. What does it really mean to believe that? It's one thing to say, oh, yeah, I think everybody has it in them. It's another. Another thing altogether to sort of embody that. That belief and be able to convey that belief. Because just holding that belief is. Is very powerful.
- [18:37]
B
Yes. And I wonder whether that human experience of hope being hard, hope taking hits, hope being built back up again, you know, like that, that, that also knowing. Knowing that hope is in there, it's. It's a part of who we are. It's. The seeds are there and we can cultivate it. And knowing that it's hard and it can come and go sometimes and it's difficult to maintain, you know, but both of those things create a sort of a. A bridge to others who are, you know, kind of grappling with these same sorts of things, I suppose. I mean, hope's not easy. It's, you know, if you just think of the word hope, it sounds lovely, but when you really drill down, it's a. It's a deeply embedded thing that, that's also, you know, takes practice, takes work, fluctuates as time goes on, but can be. Can be nourished and can be towards human flourishing.
- [19:39]
C
And, you know, you know, you think, I mean, this is one of the reasons. Because just the nature that you're talking about is one of the reasons I think that motivational interviewing is so poised and positioned to be able to help do this in the world. Because we are. We are trained in being able to hold together those paradox. That paradox of, you know, this is there's, There's. Yes, there's hope and, and look at all this and be able to hold that and the ambivalence about it and the ups and downs, and it's like it's all okay. It's all a part of the process. And, and, you know, we practice a long time to be able to hold all those things in equanimity. I mean, and that's a really important, you know, that's a really important thing to just know that. Yeah. Is going to fluctuate and that's okay, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
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B
Yeah, no, definitely. In what ways do the core elements of the MI spirit, you know, partnership, acceptance, compassion, empowerment, how might they help to create the conditions for hope to emerge in. In the therapeutic relationship? But perhaps in. In the person we're working with.
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C
I think the, you know, the real, the real way, the underlying way that. That it happens is, is in the deeper listening. And so the, The. The. You're. You're of being. Having the intention, really understanding and making that connection, which is, you know, what empathy is about. Of really understanding at a deep level where the person is. And so the elements of the spirit, all. I mean, it's like the listening supports all of them, and they're different ways of expressing it. So being able to. To convey partnership and to talk about collaboration and to actively collaborate, it requires that listening. And it also demonstrates the willingness to be connected and to work together, which is also part of that. It's like. It's a way that you can convey hope is by saying, hey, I'm here and I'm going to work with you. And, and we'll. We'll. We'll work till we find something. Or, you know, I mean, we'll. I'll be here and, and I'm here in service of you for this. And, you know, that in itself, even offering that is. Is a way of conveying hope that, that it. It's. It implies so much more, especially when you undergird it with the. The listening skills. And the same goes for compassion and empowerment that, that we have ways of both explicitly conveying those things and energetically conveying those things and, and, you know, sort of Trusting that, that through that, that space that when we're in that deep listening mode we are. We are much. We are really in a receptive mode and that, that if we're, if we're really tuning in, we're receiving from the client, we're really encouraging that reception and we're taking that reception and we're, you know, we're actively putting. Moving it back. It's like we're listening for and, and connecting and that's, that is a more energetic process. But all of those, all of the, the ways in which the spirit or the. The skills themselves operate are based on that energy going underneath.
- [24:01]
B
And sometimes the energy sounds like it's sort of expressed in tonal ways or through tone and even facial expression, body posture. The way that we're sort of. The way that we're enacting the spirit or the way that we're practicing the skills is as important for conveying hope as sort of literally sort of saying I am hopeful or something. There's a sort of. That's the energy that gets conveyed and felt. I suppose you've talked about hope talk. I mean we have change talk and so on in motivational interviewing and we're listening for change talk and so on. But yeah, listening for hope talk as well. This is the deep listening. But what are we listening for really in clients that might signal hope or these little seeds of hope? And how might we respond to, you know, gently strengthen that?
- [25:02]
C
Well, the, the. A couple of things. One, what you just said about the. That it. The. The non. More non verbal stuff about it. That in my, you know, thinking thinking about it that the responses. The more embodied non verbal responses to the, to the person of just the presence being present and being there. So sort of like anything can. Can spark hope or a discussion of hope for the person and that being. Being present and conveying that, you know, we, you can tell the difference when you're talking to somebody with. If they're thinking in their head about let's see, what is the next thing I should say, you know, whether what. What is that I'm gonna do or whether or not they're. They're open and saying, you know, saying, saying talk to me. So that those are really an important part of. Of the, of what we're listening for. It's sort of like I think about assuming that everything that a person says is. Is. Contains an a seed of hope. Everything. And I'm listening for, for that. I. I'm going to tend to that and I'm going to Listen to that. And it, it starts with that receptive body. Now, you know, I, I've had a few conversations with Bill about this too, about hope talk, which after our, the thing we all did together and you know, he, he was talking about relating it to his book and about that, you know, things like desire, elements of change talk. Certain elements of change talk can certainly contain. Can contain hope talk. But I also think it goes way beyond that. The, that there are again, that there are elements in all kinds of. When people talk about their. And really think through their, their. Their values and what's important to them and why and how their relationships nourish them and because all of those things have the capacity to, to build hope that it. And to, to allow the person to express their own hope if they. And to tap into it. So when they're. It's almost like any deeper self exploration, which I know you were also interested in, but any deeper self exploration has, has that. It provides that opportunity. I just think that you're. If we as the practitioner tune ourselves and, and attend to and just because you can feel it, you, you, you know, when you're really tuned into somebody, you know this. You're tuned into somebody and you're receiving, you're receiving from them, you can you witness the sort of. If they have a spark or that they get a. The way they say something or their tone or their, the look in their eye or any of those things you can pick up on and, and match and explore further. So it's sort of like I think about hope talk being at present that it is. It's potential hope talk being present everywhere. It's, it's training ourselves to, to listen for and because everybody's different too. What, what it is that, what it is that really gives them. Gives them hope or what they put where they place their hope. I mean, you know, people place hope in things and then they think, well, they, they didn't get what they wanted so, you know, it didn't work or whatever they're. They. It's. It's a hopeless situation. But if you just sort of explore all around there and it bubbles up.
- [29:40]
B
Yeah, it's sort of like if we listen with hope, then we can listen for hope and it's sort of, you know, again, it's that energetic within and between that you're describing there. Because I can sort of. Yeah, I imagine like a practitioner might say. So, you know, what is really important for you at the moment? What sort of life would you really want to lead? And then the Person actually sort of thinks, well, you know, this is really important to me. Boom. We're into the world of hope, really, actually, because it's about sort of imagining or sort of the possibilities of things. And now we're sort of working in hope. What do you think about the delicate nature of that sort of an exchange? Where is it possible for the practitioner to come in too strong with hope and then it elicits a kind of an unhopeful talk?
- [30:49]
C
Well, sure. Just like, you know, I can remember the early on in my motivational interviewing training, you know, when we were really talking, focused on change talk. And I guess it wasn't early, early on, it was later. But. But the. Because we didn't have change talk to start with, but the, you know, the concept of don't jump on it, don't jump on that. The person says, one piece of change talking, you go, you know, it's like. And you're gonna get. You're gonna get a backfire. You're gonna get a backfire. And I mean, I think the same is true with virtually anything. If you, if you get into that sort of persuasive mode where, oh, look, see, that's hopeful. Oh, you should. Oh, yeah, you should feel hope about that. Where our own. Driven by our own internal state to try to force it, you're. It's going to backfire. So if. If you stay in that, just being present and don't. And this is where actually learning the fixing reflex is. Is something that. That another reason why I think motivational interviewing is so well positioned for this work, because learning to recognize, oh, I want to do something, I want this to be different. I want to do something about it. I think I have an idea about what it should be, and I'm going to jump in and learning to tame that and say, oh, there it is. I don't have to act on that is incredibly powerful because even if you jump in, you can always back out and say, you know what? This is not mine. That what we're here is what. What you. What you. What's important to you. This is I. You know, and. And so that. That process of really learning how to identify when your own self is getting in the way. Yeah.
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B
It's just thinking about it. It's being able to slow down, listen, be patient, let it come, stay evocative, not slip into a more fixing reflex. That is a hopeful place to be too, in a way, because it does believe in something to emerge, you know, that things will emerge. And whereas the fixing reflex is Kind of coming from a place of enthusiasm, maybe, but it's also coming from a place of sort of an anxious place where, you know, what if things don't change? You know, and so, oh, that's something that might help them change. I'll jump on that. But to sort of slow that down is itself really energetically a hopeful thing.
- [34:07]
C
Yes. And, you know, I think we can trust that. Energetic. Keeping the equanimity in the energy. That sort of energetic flow will be picked up. I mean, I really believe. I mean, you know, it's. These are the kinds of things that you can, that we know happen by our own experience. You know, you can feel when someone is urgently trying to change your mind about something or they don't even have to speak it in, know, persuasive language. You can tell when someone is trying to, to do that. You can, you can feel it. And by the same token, if somebody just says you can feel when somebody is there with you, you know, you. And even if the person isn't making this, the connection with, with that, they're still getting. They're still feeling it. I think we can trust that.
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B
Yeah. Yes. I've been really pondering and practicing equanimity lately because it does feel like it creates a really stable ground for lots of things. I, I interviewed Margaret Cullen for this channel and, and she's recently published a book, Quiet Strength, which. It was quite a great. It was a great book on the topic. But.
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C
Yes, podcast with her. What's that? Sorry, I just listened to a podcast with her.
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B
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yes. And it's. It's so, yeah, that, that sort of, that calmness and composure and balance and, and groundedness. And then. Well, I've been thinking about that from the point of view of we then can build compassion upon that too, but it's sort of hope as well, you know, and, and yeah, what about compassion? You did mention that at the start. You sort of talked about, you know, hope is a little bit like love or a little bit like compassion. Do you see them as adjacent things or sort of separate things? Are they. Is there some sort of interaction or connection there? You know, that. I guess if we think of hope in a way sort of lends itself to compassion, that, you know, that perhaps suffering can be alleviated or prevented, I suppose, and things can change. But. Yes. What are your thoughts about the relationships and interrelationships there?
- [36:51]
C
Well, what came into my mind right now is sort of the idea of a prism and that, you know, it's sort of like The, The. The overarching energy, the life force, love, whatever, whatever however you want to call it. But that, you know, it's like it gets refracted and all, all of these things that we're talking about, compassion and hope and, and, and empathy and, you know, there's so many colors of the rainbow. It, they're all aspects of that overarching goodness that's coming out of that prism. I don't know how to. I mean, it's like there's that. That force that, that. It's that there. It. That is present aspects of, of that. And, and really, you know, I mean, words are really limit. We're really limited in our words for this kind of stuff. You know, it's like. Because it doesn't fall in our, you know, the, the language we've developed about things that we can measure. And you know, and I think about, I mean, I think about like, with compassion about Terry Moyers in her, her discussion when we were talking about the motivational interviewing Treatment Integrity Code. And she's like, you know, there is no way we're going to measure compassion. Over my dead body. Because there is no way there from, from the, the limited viewpoint of what we, what we know how to measure that we aren't going to be able to. It won't even begin to capture it. And so, so the, the. You know, and she's always said the things that are the most important are things that we can't. We don't know how to measure.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
These are things that are, you know, that they're helpful. It's useful to measure how much reflective listening you're doing and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, the, the, the really important things that we, we don't. We barely have words for. And, and they're more experience. They're more experience. And I guess that's what I hope for people when I do the workshops and stuff. I hope I want people to experience physically in their body, experience that. And you know, and compassion is like that too. It's like an experience when you, when you, when you witness somebody, when you're there and somebody's suffering and that what you feel in your body that you want that you would do to alleviate it. I mean, it's like very powerful and, and it sort of defies our abilities with our language.
- [39:59]
B
Yes, it does. I really quite. I very much like the prism metaphor or concept, though. I love that because I do grapple sometimes with, you know, compassion and love or, you know, kind of compassion versus kindness or, you Know where hope might sit alongside it all and, you know, all that sort of stuff. But if you think of it as a. As a kind of an over overarching goodness that we might call sort of love, you know, I mean, maybe John Lennon was right, you know, all you need is love, really. But. But then it kind of. Sorry, what. What was the word refracts or that?
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C
You know, when you have a. A light or a crystal or something, it refracts.
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B
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And out comes these different things, you know, and then. And you know, compassion and kindness maybe are a bit different in a way. Compassion might be much more focused on suffering and alleviating suffering. Kindness is more just doing things for the benefit of others, you know, and so on and so forth. But these are all kind of refracted, kind of light beams coming out of this overarching. I really. Yeah, I'll meditate over that. I think. I think that's a lovely way to think about it.
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C
Yeah. And it's sort of like probably, I'm not sure it really matters to differentiate to the detail about how they might be alike or differ. They have so many different expressions, but it's like expressions of the same. In a way. It's like expressions of the same thing. And sometimes it might come out looking more like we think of kindness and, and sometimes more like compassion and sometimes more like hope or. But. But it's sort of like that, that just allowing. Allowing the, the. Those that energy to come, you know. And that's another thing about motivational interviewing. I, for me. And I have said this since the beginning of learning motivational interviewing very early on, which has been a long time now for me, but I can't believe it's been like 36 years, but. 36 years I learned it. Yep. And. But.
- [42:45]
B
But 1990, are we. Is that 1990? Have I done my maths right?
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, the. I mean, I didn't do my TNT till later, but we were doing a research project in one of the first ones in motivational interviewing. Actually, I think it was 91, because the book had come out. Yes, as we learned through the book. But the. You know, I have always really felt like this motivational interviewing is. Is one of those refracted lights that contain several of them. And, and that it is that it was never about me and it was never about my skill level. It was never about my. I mean, I'm. Maybe I was gifted with the opportunity and the capacity to, to teach, but. But it was about letting it do it, do it through me. You know, I, I, it was not mine and it was very clear from the very beginning that it was not me. And I can remember teaching and working with people and learning how to listen and say, you know, you do have to practice your way into it, but you will get where you realize that you do not have to think about this at all. You allow that energy to go back and forth and you will receive everything you need from, from the client to reflect that, that it is, that it is an allowing of it to work. Which, all those things like getting out of the way, you know, not working with the, you know, trying to get out of the fixing reflex, all those things, all of those things help us open up the pathway so that it can work. And I, I mean I, I've just felt that from the very beginning, like it was bigger than me. It was so much bigger than me. It wasn't about me.
- [44:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [44:56]
C
I mean Bill and I, that conversation, he's like, it's, it's bigger than Bill. It's not. And you know, that's right.
- [45:05]
B
No, I think it's it that, that is a felt sense one gets when first connecting or experiencing motivational interviewing is, is that it? We're sort of, it's, it's a just a very human thing that exists, you know, within us and between us and we channel it and we do it and we can hone it and practice it and, and become, you know, sort of as effective as we can. And, and, and also it then becomes a little bit more just natural and automatic. But it, it is, it does. I, I can really relate to, to what you're saying. And somewhere in there there's self, compassion too, isn't there? For the practitioner being able to recognize that and you know, kind of have that sense of their own well being in that and where their responsibilities lie and you know, various other aspects whereby the self compassion or self care of the practitioner fits in too.
- [46:04]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, I feel the same way about compassion as I do hope that if you don't, you can't have what you don't. I mean, you can't give what you don't have. And if you don't have, if you, if you don't offer yourself the same level, if you feel, you know, if you walk around feeling unworthy, you're not, you're not good enough. I mean, that's what you're going to convey. It's like that, that being able to have, have compassion with yourself, that we're all just human and of Course we're going to feel hopeless and we're going to feel bad and we're going to feel good and we're going to feel all those things. It's all a part of life. And, and I, I think accepting that humanness and, and not. And having compassion for yourself is really important to being able to, to extend compassion in a very meaningful way, in a very deep way. You know, we can operate on the surface and you know, give people and say, you know, I'm, you know, I'm going to try to alleviate this suffering over here, but in a, in a very deep way. It's like understanding your own suffering and understanding how. How so much. That's just so much a part of the human condition that we are. We all suffer every. I mean, and, and we all deserve compassion. I mean it. We. It's like.
- [47:57]
B
Yeah, not wanting to spring a bad. Sorry, not bad, but a big question on you, although I'm about to. But I mean, it is. We reflected before we started recording that, you know, there's a lot going on in the world and people. It's stressful and people can get a little bit hooked by, by despair or hopelessness. I'm not sure. I mean, there's always been difficult things happening in the world, I suppose, in a way. And, and so that's, you know. But, but yeah. How can. What, what would you say to those who are just kind of feeling some of that, you know, how might one lend hope or, or, you know, sort of give a little takeaway for people to reflect on?
- [48:53]
C
Well, in the same way we were just talking about self compassion. I mean, I think knowing your own sense of hopelessness, knowing your own sense of despair, understanding it, not trying to minimize it or, you know, just to accept it, that also is part of the human condition that we are going to experience that. And, and being able to sort of hold both and, and this is another, you know, another really important motivational interviewing thing. Being able to hold that both can be true. There's. There can be hope and hopelessness or a feeling of hopelessness that, that, that both can be true and, and the practice has to do with being able to. To bring in both and to be able to not throw out one or deny one, but to be able to turn, you know, to be able to turn toward the hope, to be able to turn. Turn attention to turn, whether it's with the other person or, or yourself. And you know, that it takes, it takes a lot of practice to do that. And practices for me are what really what really are the key of ongoing regular practices that are designed to really allow those. That energy to flow and that in whatever way people do it. And there's a lot of different ways you can do it and a lot of different avenues that you can do it through through, but finding the ways that, that allow. Give you the opportunity to turn and be and, and to practice that. And of course you're never going to do it perfectly. But you know, if you think about the. I mean, despair is one thing and, and hopelessness. I mean, in some ways, if we think of hope as they're always there inside, covered up, buried, you know, encased or whatever, but that, that there really isn't hopelessness. It's like we can't. Despair is, is very real. Like it feels like there's no access to the hope. But you know, in a sense, if I think about that, like, okay, I may feel hopeless, but you know, I, I do trust that it's there and at least helps me think about it a little differently. And even with the other person too, you know, if somebody's feeling and you know, you know, you can't deny that somebody's despairing, of course, but that, then that comes to. That attention to, of like, okay, things are really bad and the world is, you know, a mess. So let's, let's put that aside for a second and look where things aren't a miss. Where, where is your life not a mess? And you know, it may take a long, you know, depending on the situation. Could take a lot of digging to find something that wasn't a mess. But it, but it's that being able to not deny the despair, not try to convince them they shouldn't have it, but to, to. To actually you're, you're trying to help people be able to hold that like, that to develop that sense of equanimity of like, okay, you know, that trusting that there is. There is a whole lot of goodness out there and it's not all hopeless. There's a lot of goodness and how can I go about trying to find some of it? You know, trying to pay attention to it, love it.
- [53:16]
B
I think that that's a great place to end. I've been reading romantic comedies this year because that's one way to try. There's often very deep themes in a rom com, but there's also triumph and of course, the happy ending. But. Dr. Denise Ernst.
- [53:39]
C
Yeah.
- [53:39]
B
Thank you for, for spreading the word and keeping hope alive. I, I think I know that this is something that you've really dedicated yourself to these days. So I, I really appreciate that. And also thank you for speaking with me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [53:54]
C
Oh, I really appreciate being here, Stan. I love any time I have to talk with you and to explore these ideas. It's great. So I appreciate. Thank you for having me.
- [54:08]
B
Thank you.