Compassion in a T-Shirt

Episode: How Nutrition Shapes Mental Health & Compassion | Jennefer D’Aubyn

Host: Dr. Stan Steindl
Guest: Jennefer D’Aubyn
Date: February 13, 2025

Overview

This episode dives into the powerful intersection of nutrition, mental health, and compassion. Dr. Stan Steindl interviews Jennefer D’Aubyn—a psychotherapist and nutritional therapist—about how what we eat intimately shapes our emotional wellbeing, recovery from conditions like long Covid, and the ways we care for ourselves and each other. Both reflective and practical, their conversation explores how food choices can serve as acts of self-compassion, how therapists might integrate nutrition into psychological work, and the emerging science behind nutritional interventions in mental health settings.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jen’s Journey: Integrating Psychotherapy and Nutrition

Timestamps: [01:41]–[09:01]

• Background: Jen describes her evolution from working in the NHS as a psychological therapist to incorporating nutritional therapy into her practice.

• Her “foodie” upbringing and personal interest in nutrition naturally interfaced with her clinical work.

• Through cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), Jen observed that changing behaviors (like eating or sleep) can sometimes be more accessible than changing thoughts—prompting her to pay greater attention to clients’ appetite, diet, and routines.

• Describes how basic questions about caffeine, alcohol, sleep, and appetite in mental health assessments opened the door to deeper nutritional considerations.

  “I started to notice how many people I was working with have one main meal a day… the rest just cruising along supplementing their hunger with coffee, tea, nicotine, maybe a biscuit or a piece of toast. So you’re thinking, where’s the nourishment in there?” (C, [05:00])

2. Nutrition in Mental Health: Practical Integration

Timestamps: [09:04]–[20:17]

• Jen shares case examples of long Covid patients where nutrition plays a critical role:

  • One only drank Diet Coke as hydration, affecting sleep and wellbeing.
  • Another, with diabetes and depression, was stuck in a tea-and-biscuits cycle, unable to muster the motivation and planning for nourishing meals.

• Emphasizes collaborative, non-judgmental approaches—focusing on readiness to change and small, achievable steps.

  “It’s really being very collaborative and finding where they want to change… You’re really noticing how this isn’t serving you. Let’s think about… the reasons to change, why you want to change.” (C, [18:09])

• Uses behavioral experiments (e.g., “let’s try swapping biscuits for dried fruit”) rather than prescriptive rules.

3. Long Covid: Understanding and Definitions

Timestamps: [21:18]–[27:23]

• Brief overview of long Covid—persistent symptoms (like fatigue and brain fog) after acute COVID infection.

• Long Covid was a term coined by patients; clinical guidelines also use “post-Covid condition.”

• Symptom range extremely broad (over 260 symptoms identified), making research and targeted interventions challenging.

• Theorized causes include ongoing immune response, residual viral material, or metabolic changes.

  “It really affects people’s felt sense of their ability to be themselves in the world because they can’t quite do things in the same way, or they get tired more quickly…” (C, [24:14])

4. Jen’s Research: Systematic Review of Nutrition Interventions in Long Covid

Timestamps: [27:23]–[34:47]

• Jen conducted a quantitative literature review to map which nutritional interventions have been studied in long Covid.

• From just 5 studies in a 2-year-old review to 43 in her own scan—an explosion of interest and research.

• Found emphasis on protein and certain micronutrients (e.g., B vitamins, magnesium, zinc, iron, CoQ10), but the research is “very broad, not especially deep.”

• Most studies report positive results, but findings are early and there’s publishing bias, so clinical recommendations are still cautious.

  “There is some similarity of thinking… It is very broad, not especially deep.” (C, [33:11])

5. Practical Takeaways: Nutrition for Recovery and Wellbeing

Timestamps: [35:54]–[45:34]

• Jen is wary of blanket supplement recommendations—focus on “food first” and personalized approaches.

• Suggests structuring meals with a “hand” method: palm for protein (knuckles for extra), fist for carbs, rest of plate for colorful plant foods.

• Stresses variety (“variety is the spice of life”), joy, and cultural fit in food choices.

• B vitamins, magnesium, zinc, and iron are highlighted as commonly studied for supporting energy metabolism.

  “Food is something that should be enjoyable. We should like it. We should enjoy it. It should perhaps be emotionally nourishing as well as biochemically nourishing.” (C, [38:37])

6. Nutritional Psychiatry and the Broader Landscape

Timestamps: [45:34]–[46:22]

• Nutritional psychiatry is a new, growing field exploring targeted supplementation and food-based interventions for mental health.

• Research led by figures like Professor Felice Jacka on population-level links between diet quality and mental health.

  “Turning down the number of ultra-processed foods… turning up the quantity of whole foods, fresh whole foods as best we can.” (C, [44:29])

• A practical rule of thumb from Jen’s mother: “If food looks closest to what it originally was, it’s probably going to do you some good.” (C, [45:20])

7. Nutrition Through a Compassion Lens: The Three Circles and Three Flows

Timestamps: [46:22]–[56:20]

• Jen and Stan draw on Compassion-Focused Therapy frameworks:

  • Threat System: Hunger as a primal threat; food scarcity as stress.
  • Drive System: Motivation to seek food/resources; pleasure in seeking and eating.
  • Soothing System: Food as comfort, social connection, satisfaction.

  “When we’ve got our food set, there’s a real feeling of feeling settled and then there’s the act of eating… it’s a social thing.” (C, [48:14])

• They reflect on how food serves all three “flows” of compassion—giving, receiving, and directing compassion to oneself.

• Stan shares a personal story: when his mother brought him chocolate milk in hospital while his daughter was ill, it became a profound moment of receiving compassion through nutrition. (B, [57:12])

8. Nutrition as Compassion-in-Action

Timestamps: [59:18]–[64:30]

• Food as a “vehicle for compassion”: making soup for a sick friend, sharing meals for new parents, community care during COVID quarantines.

• Food gifting is instinctive, physical, and emotionally meaningful. Batch-cooking meals for those in need or simply bringing snacks to an office are everyday acts of compassion.

  “I made her a chicken soup… I knew this would be easy and nourishing for her… moved by her suffering. And I loved doing it.” (C, [61:22])

• Jen realizes the potential for integrating more explicit nutrition practices into compassion-based therapy, e.g., using food as metaphors or practical rivers of giving/receiving.

9. Looking Ahead: Research and Practice Directions

Timestamps: [64:39]–[68:28]

• Jen hopes to publish her research, and envisions bridging the knowledge of nutritional therapy with psychological and behavioral change tools.

• Practical ideas for future workshops to help therapists integrate nutrition safely and effectively into their work.

• Passion for helping clients discover how good they could feel with small nutritional adjustments, always within the context of their lived experience, preferences, and culture.

  “A lot of us don’t realize how good we could feel, potentially, through perhaps some of the common habits that we’re making…” (C, [67:00])

Notable Quotes

• On integrating nutrition and mental health:

  “When we’re thinking about depression… people might start to lose their appetite… and what that means and how that might be a part of formulation, but also in the other direction as well: food does seem to play a really important role in the kind of ups and downs of one’s mental state.”
  — Dr. Stan Steindl [09:30]

• On readiness for change:

  “It’s not, I’m not saying this is going to change your life and that’s how it’s going to be… But approaching all of these changes in that behavioral experiment way: does this feel like something you’d like to change? Let’s give it a try, see how you feel.”
  — Jennefer D’Aubyn [19:30]

• On the scope of research:

  “From five papers two years ago to forty-three now—that’s quite a lot of research activity. So lots of people are asking us this question, looking at the dietary and nutritional components…”
  — Jennefer D’Aubyn [32:54]

• On personalized nutrition:

  “We all have our own biochemistry… So I am exceedingly tentative and don’t really… say everyone should take this supplement.”
  — Jennefer D’Aubyn [35:54]

• On food as compassion:

  “Food is such a tangible compassion act experience, isn’t it?”
  — Jennefer D’Aubyn [63:20]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to Jen and food/mental health overlap: [01:41]–[09:01]
• Practical cases of nutrition in therapy: [11:06]–[20:17]
• Long Covid definitions and challenges: [21:18]–[27:23]
• Summary of Jen’s nutrition and long Covid research: [27:23]–[34:47]
• Dietary advice and practical strategies: [35:54]–[45:34]
• Compassion and the three circles: [46:22]–[56:20]
• Personal and cultural acts of food as compassion: [59:18]–[64:30]
• Looking ahead—Jen's research and ambitions: [64:39]–[68:28]

Conclusion

Dr. Stan Steindl and Jennefer D’Aubyn offer a nuanced exploration of how what we eat affects not just our bodies, but our minds—and how our food choices can become daily gestures of self-care and compassion. Grounded in the latest research but rich with practical wisdom and human stories, this episode is an invaluable listen for anyone interested in mental health, recovery, and the intertwined power of nourishment and kindness.