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Compassion in a T-Shirt
Redefining business with compassion | Bruno Cignacco (Must know principles and practices)
01:08:30
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to another episode of Compassion in a T Shirt where we explore all things compassion and self compassion and what it is to be a human being. Today I'm thrilled to speak with Dr. Bruno Signacco. A pioneer in compassionate business practices. Bruno is an esteemed influence, International Business Consultant, TEDx, Speaker, Lecturer, Best Selling Author. With over 30 years of experience, he's advised and trained hundreds of companies in international trade activities and social marketing. His work is driven by a passion for incorporating compassion into core business operations. He transforms traditional business models into into human centered enterprises. In today's episode, we delve into Bruno's latest book, the Art of Compassionate Main Principles for the Human Oriented Enterprise. This book challenges long held assumptions about business dynamics and offers a refreshing perspective on how businesses can operate more humanely and with humanistic love. Bruno shares insights on how to view employees as individuals, embrace competitors as collaborators and foster creativity within a compassionate business framework. Get ready for an enlightening conversation that could transform the way you think about business. And so I bring you Dr. Bruno Signarco. Well, today I have with me Dr. Bruno Signako. Bruno, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [01:51]
B
Thank you, Stan for inviting me. I feel very honored to be here. Thank you very much.
- [01:57]
A
Lovely.
- [01:57]
C
Good.
- [01:57]
A
Yes, I'm excited to hear about your work. What inspired you to write the Art of Compassionate Business? And I know that there's been a first and now a second edition. So. Yeah, how have things changed as well since the first edition?
- [02:16]
B
Yes, very interesting question. Yes, I read an article a while ago, many years ago on Harvard Business Review that was called the Human Moment at Work. And in this article there were a lot of insights about how can people can connect to one another on a mental and emotional level. And I haven't read so much about this. Most of the business topic that I read, they are talking about strategy, tactics, budgets, costs, profit, market share, what we call the key performance indicator. And this author was talking about developing strong, robust bonds with different stakeholders, especially with colleagues. And I was a bit intrigued and I said, okay, this is a topic worth exploring. And I started researching on this and these many years of research. This was coordinated by the first edition of the Art of Compassionate Business published by Ruth Leach. And between the first edition and the second edition there was Covid, COVID 19. That is a very important event. And I noticed that companies, especially during COVID there were two clear categories of companies. Companies that were non compassionate. This means companies that were firing employees mercilessly getting rid of employees like they Were faulty cogs in the machinery, in the organizational machinery. And then there were companies that were very employee oriented. They were supporting employees even when they have to downgrade some of the companies looking for other job opportunities for their employees in other competing companies. So I saw this very clear distinction between companies that are human oriented and companies that are not human oriented. And also in the second edition of the book, I started introducing much more cases of companies that are compassionate, especially that are compassionate. A few cases that companies that are not compassionate and introduce other topics such as a compassionate leadership, which is very important, giving us an example of leaders that are acting in a human oriented way. And also the importance of trust and business. I explore other topic like trust and business and also psychologically safe workplace. So I feel that the world changed during COVID And I feel also that we can extend the concept of connection here. We're not talking about human connection in person, but also we are talking about human connection through technology, for example, zoom, another type of technological devices. And I feel that you can be compassionate using technology as well as in person. This is briefly the changes that I observe. And I still see these two distinct categories of companies, companies that I call bottom line oriented. This means they're focusing on profits. They're looking for what we call quantitative aspect of business, what can be measured, what can be counted, what can be very clearly quantified, for example, profit, market share and company, that also take into account this economic aspect. But they take into account also what we call qualitative aspect of business, what cannot be measured. There is a famous thought leader that observed not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts. And this is so interesting because when you take into account quantitative aspect of business, key performance indicator, market share, productivity and others, and qualitative aspect of business, for example compassion, support, care, camaraderie, empathy. Taking into account these two aspects, companies tend to be much more successful from the economy perspective and from the human perspective.
- [05:51]
C
Why?
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B
Because through this quality of business, the company build strong, long lasting relationship with all these stakeholders. And when I keep talks about this, I say to the entrepreneurs and to the audience, how can companies survive without stakeholder company need stakeholders on their side. They're interdependent with the stakeholders. So the only way to succeed in business, there is no other way, is to build strong, long lasting relationship with the stakeholders. Because by doing so you have these stakeholders on your side cooperating and supporting your company.
- [06:27]
A
Beautiful, wonderful sort of introduction to the whole idea. The thing that occurs to me, of course Is that we can have the quantitative and the qualitative. And that's the sweet spot, isn't it? We still need to be able to keep one eye on the bottom line and the key performance indicators and so on. But it's actually not that difficult to even make hard business decisions. But with compassion and with kindness and with love. And that's. I think that's really one of the big things that I got from your work.
- [07:00]
B
Yes, thank you very much. And also I want to highlight this point that you mentioned. Qualitative aspects create quantitative aspect. Because at the end, which is the most important factor in business, it's not artificial intelligence, it's not technology, it's not information, is not contacts, but is the human being. The human being I call a meta resource is a resource that generates other resources. For example, employees. Let's talk about employees. Employees are meta resources.
- [07:29]
C
Why?
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B
Because they can generate new business plans, new business model, new processes, new system, new products, new services. So we have to care for the most important resource. Many companies sadly talk about employees like cost. So for example, we have to reduce costs. We have to put down the salary of employees. This is not the right approach because it's one of the most important resources. But also in some cases they consider a customer as figures in the database. Let's see how much this customer contribute to the company's profit. This is the wrong approach because customer are human being with legitimate needs that need to be acknowledge and satisfy whenever possible. If you don't satisfy the needs of each stakeholder, this means what we call win win agreements. The company wins and the stakeholder wins. These stakeholders tend to withdraw, they tend not to cooperate. Let's imagine an employee that is exploited is pay pennies or cents for their work. They are not recognized, emotionally speaking, when they work hard. And these employees, in some cases that are bored to death given tasks that are repetitive and demotivating. How you expect this employee to be in the company? As soon as this employee look for other job opportunities, even they are paid less salary, this employee will jump into these opportunities.
- [08:48]
C
Why?
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B
Because employees, like any other stakeholder, has a wide range of needs. They have economic needs, salary, security, safety. But also they have emotional needs. They need to be valued, they need to be appreciated, they need to be recognized for their contribution. They have mental needs, they have need for stimulation, new project, creative initiative. They have social need. They need to gather with colleagues, not only to discuss the budget. What about some meals outside work to socialize with the colleagues and know each other on a personal level. And so this means that many companies focus only on the basic need, that is economic need, with not recognizing the other type of need, like a social, mental and emotional.
- [09:34]
A
I get the sense from your work that some of the stakeholders are the employees or the people within the company. Then there's the clients or the customers who kind of might access the services or products. But then there's the competitors as well, that they're kind of almost. Well, they're a stakeholder too in some ways. And there are certain traditional business assumptions that sort of see a lot of that as adversarial or something like that. What are some of the traditional business assumptions that you've been kind of working, working against or with in this area?
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B
Yeah. Yes, yes. Most of the companies have this assumption, for example, other companies are threats. So other company need to be, for example outpace or you develop a strategy to compete with other companies. So this like some zero game. So you win and other companies lose it. But what happened? We have some example of company, for example in the airline sector, Virgin Atlantic, that is a very renowned company and this company developed partnership with other airlines. You can say, how can this be? Yeah, they develop partnership with other airlines, with other competing companies.
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C
Why?
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B
Because they want to offer their customers with a wide range of destinations. So if they cannot cover a destination, supposing that they don't go to Australia or they don't go to another destination, having this partnership and this network of contacts with other partners that are competing companies can help add more value to customers. So the concept of competitors in some cases is used in an adversarial way, as you mentioned. But also many companies use other companies as benchmarks. What can I learn from this company? Supposing that the company has practices of excellence and they are serving customer in a very outstanding way and they have the best quality, what can I learn from this company? Can I do better than this company? Can I take some ideas from this company and transform and adapt to my company? We call this benchmarking. But also supposing that the company is acting unethically, they are polluting the environment, they're exploiting employees, how can I avoid myself as a company converting into this type of company? How can I get away from this model? This means that companies, other companies can be models to emulate, to imitate, but also can be modeled not to imitate. Especially when they're acting in an unethical way, they're acting in a non compassionate way. So this mean this is a very important example. I, I mentioned in the Book a full chapter that include the concept of cooperation. I feel that company can, in some cases, obviously they're offering the same product in the. In the same sector in some cases. But they can cooperate and there are many benefits according to research of cooperation with other company. For example, company can share resources. They can complement each with resources. One company could be very keen on the development of contacts and they can provide this partnership with contacts. And the other one can provide with technology and the other company can provide, for example, with information company. But also they can share risk in some cases. The entry to some markets is very risky. So going together as a partnership can share risk. This is very common in international trade. I specialize in international marketing. And we see companies, especially small companies, that will compete each other with each other in the domestic market, in the national market, but then they go together like a consortium. Consortium is a group of companies that have a common front and they become bigger because of this partnership. And they can compete in the international arena in a much more effective way. So we have to stop thinking only about competition, but also think about the possibility of cooperation. Because competition is based on fear. I talk about fear a lot in the book. And when you are fearful, you tend to treat trigger this famous mode, freeze, fight, flight mode. And you cannot be creative, you cannot be productive, you cannot be meaningful with your actions. Why? Because you are acting in a defensive way. Instead, when you think about cooperation, you are thinking about in a much more connecting way. This means what can I contribute to this company and how this company can contribute to my company, what value we can add jointly. So this is what I call a prosperity mindset. Instead of using a scarcity mindset where company wins and the other company loses.
- [14:05]
A
Yes. Oh, there's so much there that sort of occurs to me that there's that cooperation, collaboration, partnership, sort of all boats rise together on the tide sort of a thing is sort of what part of what you're saying. Benchmarking is very interesting. Being able to learn from other companies and maybe in both directions as well. That's important.
- [14:27]
B
I want to give you an example of benchmarking. Many people believe that Google is the first search engine in the world and this was not true at all. Before Google, there were some search engines like Yahoo. What Google did, examine what Yahoo did with the search engine and they tried to improve this. So for example, Yahoo, if you see the Yahoo website, you will see that there are lots of links. From the viewpoint of Google founders, this was too cluttered. So they took the idea of the search engine and then they design a search engine that is uncluttered. This means few links, very clean, very tidy, so that it's easier for obviously people visiting Internet website to look for the results. So this means that you can take some ideas, this is what they call the benchmarks and then you transform and you improve them. Another example is Shane Dyson is a famous entrepreneur, English entrepreneur that saw that companies many years ago were selling vacuum cleaner that have non reusable bags. And this was a multimillion industry. So imagine every time that you vacuum clean the room, you have to buy a bag. And he asked himself, oh, the vacuum cleaner is a good device, but how can I develop a bagless vacuum cleaner? After more than 4,000 prototypes, failed prototype. He learned from each of these experiences and many years of research. He developed the first backless vacuum cleaner. And obviously this was revolutionary and is still on in the marketplace. And then other companies that were offering vacuum cleaners with bags copied him, copied him and obviously became as a benchmark for the industry.
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A
It's still a competitive kind of aspect to it. It's just that it's also, you know, there's also a sort of a sharing, caring aspect to it. It reminds me of, I'm a big Beatles fan and it reminds me of John Lennon and Paul McCartney. You know, they were, they would, they would really sort of bounce off each other, wouldn't they? And every time they would improve. And it's a bit like that with companies as well.
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B
Yes. And I, I like the Beater too. We can say that the Beaters and the Beach Boys were looking into each other compositions.
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C
Why?
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B
Because they want to improve, taking into account the scan that the standard of each other, the high quality standard of each other. They wanted to improve the next composition. So I listened to an interview to Paul McCartney and he was saying that they always were looking into the Beach Boys not to compete, but to see what they were doing so well in order to improve it.
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A
Yes, the Beach Boys put out Pet Sounds and then we got Sergeant Peppers from the Beatles. You alluded to fear. And one of the things that we're often working with when trying to cultivate compassion or self compassion is people might have certain misconceptions or reservations or even fears about compassion and how that, you know, the fear around negative effects that might arise out of, out of compassion. What have you noticed there? What are some of the common misconceptions or even fears about compassion in business?
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B
Yes, let's talk about fear in general first and then we talk about fear and Compassion. What I see when advise companies is lot of fear, fear based workplaces, according to research and according to my practice and my experience, what I observed, that fear based workplaces cannot be productive, cannot be cooperative. Employees don't feel that they're contributing in a meaningful way to the company's mission.
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C
Why?
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B
Because people are adopting this defensive attitude. They mean there is in this company what we call the dark side of politics. One upmanship, turf wars, favoritism, and also in some cases, gossiping. And all this cannot contribute to what I call lab based workplace. On the contrary, employees working in this, what we call psychologically unsafe workplace, tend to leave the company very easily. These companies that are not having a compassionate workplace, people are not supporting one another. People feel very cautious when sharing resources with one another. And also employees, in some cases, they don't want to go to work. Instead, what I observe, according to research, according to my experience, when the workplace is loving, means when people are acting based on principles such as kindness, care, compassion, camaraderie, loyalty, commitment, engagement. These workplaces, what we call loving workplaces, according to research and my experience, tend to have higher employee satisfaction, higher customer satisfaction.
- [19:23]
C
Why?
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B
Because employees that are happy, they feel supported by the company, tend to serve customers in a much more effective way. They tend to add more value to customers, but also lower turnover, lower absenteeism, lower stress level. This means lower health costs.
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C
Why?
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B
Because people that don't get stressed, they don't have to go to the doctor. They're much more engaged at work and a higher profit. So this means that developing ties, very strong bonds in the workplace, what we call high quality bonds, tend to bring about not only better relationship at work and also with other stakeholders such as customers and suppliers, but also a much more successful economic result, higher profit, higher market share and so on. The relationship between compassion and fear is very clear. You cannot be fearful and compassionate at the same time.
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C
Why?
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B
Because when you are compassionate, you are connecting to others. When you are fearful, you are disconnecting from what is threatening, what is considered as a threat. So compassion, I define very simply, take into account many specialists, that is understanding how people think, how people feel and try to help them whenever possible. I mentioned a very interesting example in the book about the health sector and this is a nice paper. That is a doctor that is about to operate a patient and is going through this very challenging operation that could be life or death operation. The result of this operation and this doctor have a one minute conversation before the operation to come down to soothe this patient. And they tested with this conversation, one minute conversation. And without this one minute conversation, the doctor, when they went through the operation, before the operation, talked to this patient for one minute. They have to apply less anesthesia during the operation and the recovery period was shorter. Only 1 minute to calm down this patient. So this means that has very clear impact on the. In this case, the stakeholder will be the patient will be the customer. But also there are many other examples of company that are compassionate. I also mentioned an interesting example. Let's imagine that the company has a good relationship with the supplier. And this supplier is delivering the input for this company late. If we look at the contract, if we look into the fine print of the contract, this supplier might be penalized. This means that we apply the contract strictly and we are not compassionate. We will penalize the supplier, for example, fining them because they deliver the goods late. But if we act in a compassionate way, we will have a conversation one to one to know what problems this supplier have and try to help them avoid this problem in the future.
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C
Why?
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B
Because we don't want to penalize them. We want to strengthen the bond with the supplier.
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C
Why?
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B
Because we need the suppliers and this supplier needs us. So we need to have the supplier on our side. So two different approaches. When you are compassionate, you try to strengthen the relationship with different stakeholders. Like the case of doctor in the case of this company with supplier. But also when the workplace is compassionate, the employees feel that they're supported. This means that the perception of the workplace is positive. But also they also feel that the company as a whole is a company that is human oriented. What allow this employee to contribute to this company in a meaningful way. In some cases going beyond what is set up by the contract. For example, working extra hours unconditionally contributing to the company with creative ideas. So when company. There is a principle of social reciprocity. When a company treat employees and other stakeholders in a. In a caring, in a supportive way, in a compassionate way. These employees tend to respond positively. When you treat them in a dismissive way, when you don't care for them, when you comment about them like costs or resources. I don't like the concept of human resources resources. Resources can be used and misused. When you talk about customer as a figure in your database, well, you are dehumanizing these stakeholders and obviously what you expect for them to contribute to your company. No, if you dehumanize customer and you try to take advantage of them, they will leave negative reviews online. They will push other potential customers away. This employee will work by the book and might even leave the company.
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C
Why?
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B
Because their emotional needs are not satisfied. They don't feel that they counted their value. So being compassionate, being supportive with other stakeholders bring about a positive cycle of reciprocity. This means you support others, you consider that they're human beings and when they face challenges, they need to be supportive.
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C
Why?
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B
Because this could happen to all of us. This is the commonality with all the companies and stakeholders. But also they tend to contribute to your company in a much more meaningful way.
- [24:24]
A
Yeah, that's the fourth stakeholder, isn't it? There's the employees, the customers, the competitors, the suppliers. Even there we might develop that compassionate kind of approach. And I appreciate your, your definition there, that the, the ability to be sort of aware and understanding of the thoughts and feelings of others and being kind of motivated to be helpful, I guess, wherever, wherever possible. That that's kind of how you're seeing it. How have you found? Well, for example, I guess managers or CEOs or the higher ups, you know, how, how easily do you find that they're convinced about all of this? Are you able to convince them of the positives of this approach or is there a bit of resistance there?
- [25:11]
B
Sometimes there is a bit of resistance. Sometimes depend on the company. When the companies are bigger, in many cases tend to be much more resistant because they are more bureaucratic, more structured, and the contact between different stakeholders within the company and outside the company is more impersonal. But also you see that companies that have a lot of projects, simultaneous projects, tend to have what we call time scarcity. This means they feel that they don't have time to be compassionate. I say I cannot be compassionate. I have to serve my clients, I have to pay the taxes, I have to pay the bills. But we saw that takes only one minute, one minute conversation to get into a compassionate engagement with others and helping others. But also many companies focus on their role. This means that they focus on, for example, you are a customer service officer or you are the manager. And they forget that beyond the role there is the human being. Because the human being is not represented by the role. There's much more than the role. For example, I see some companies that they don't allow employees to talk about their emotions. When you don't talk about their emotion, they tend to be repressed or suppressed and they might come up in a very unwise way. Instead, other companies that are more compassionate, they have counseling services free for employees if they have any problem or they have some social supporter. For example, if employee have some problem at work and so on. I wanted to mention also that some companies try to integrate the community within their business model. There is a very interesting example in the book about a company called Kaya Cookies, that is a company that produce cookies in South Africa and obviously bakery products. And this company observed that in this town around, there were a lot of people that were unemployed. They were living in one room abode in a condition of poverty. And what they start doing, they start hiring women that were unemployed and trained them in bakery skills, for example, and also marketing skills and develop the administrative capability so that they can provide not only the hire people, but they provide these women with a nice livelihood. So this means that they integrate some issues of the community within their business model. And these women were very satisfied and very proud of enhancing their skill.
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C
Why?
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B
Because they could support their family that were in a condition of poverty. So this means that it's a broader approach of business. What I find that many companies feel that the mission, the business mission should be only about economic aspect. What I mentioned in the first chapter of the book is that the mission should be multidimensional, should have economic aspect means expanding worldwide or in your domestic market, but also social aspect. How can I improve the lives of all stakeholder around the lives of employees, the life of customer, the lives of the community member? And so, and also environmental aspect. How can we use much more renewable sources of energy, green energy, green processes, recycling, using packaging made of recycled material. So this is quite important.
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C
Why?
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B
Because this is the only world that we have for now. And we want to live a very important and sustainable world for our newer generations. So this means that we're thinking from the long term perspective. We're not only thinking about urgent things. Short term perspective.
- [28:32]
A
Yes, it's funny really, isn't it? Because I hear that too. I don't have time for compassion. And sometimes I feel like saying you don't have time not to be compassionate because it actually speeds everything up and makes things work more smoothly and people are happier and all the rest of it.
- [28:52]
B
But moreover, some spiritual leaders say that compassion is not a luxury, it's a necessity. It's a necessity. This means that you cannot avoid, but you have to focus on being compassionate because compassion generates more compassion. And also I mentioned other important values in the book. Generosity generate more generosity, gratitude generate more gratitude. And this generate a better workplace and a better business environment where people feel that they count. And when they feel that they count, they can cooperate spontaneously without being forced. You cannot force people to cooperate. I observe many companies for example, that they micromanage employees. They treat employees like naughty children. They say, oh, you have to ask for authorization to move this finger and you have to ask for authorization to perform this task. How you can expect people to feel satisfied and delighted when they are continually controlled, when you don't trust their skills, when you don't make them feel autonomous and competent, that are two important needs of any human being. Well, instead, some companies allow employees, I mentioned a few examples in the book, allow employees to be self managed. They set their own goals, they look for resources to fulfill their goals. And also they obviously in some cases they can consult with colleagues when they don't know so much about a topic, but they are self reliant. These employees tend to feel that their contribution is more meaningful because it's not only about the salary, it's also about the meaningfulness of the, the work that they do. Employees need to feel that they're contributing to the company mission on a daily basis in a meaningful way. And by doing so they're more likely to give their best. Instead, when employees, I see, for example, the other day I went to a factory here, one employee was hammering a nail eight hours a day. What you can expect this employee to be motivated.
- [30:48]
C
Why?
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B
Because they are bored to death. And I told these people, you know what, why don't you do some job rotation? You allow this employee to work in other areas. For example, if they're in the factory, you allow one week to work in the marketing department to have a much more holistic view of this. And then the next week you allow them to work in the finance department. Because this employee will get bored and will leave the company. They're not feeling that, they're counting. They don't contribute to this company in a meaningful way.
- [31:19]
A
Yeah, so, so, so much, so much there in, in, in what you're saying, it reminds me of, I think it was Matthew Ricard who said, you know, compassion has a twofold benefit. It's, it's really beneficial obviously for the employees and, and the people who are sort of where we're perhaps expressing compassion towards, but it's also beneficial for the people being compassionate and it's sort of, it's good for everybody. One of the things that I noticed in your book and you know, in the, in the book book sections and chapters is you refer to love. And actually you referred to love a moment ago as well. And I'm curious about that because obviously love is, you know, often people have certain preconceived ideas, I guess of what Love might mean or, you know, that sort of thing. How are you kind of using that term and where does it fit with compassion in your mind?
- [32:13]
B
Very interesting question. So yes, I consider that there are two main type of love, what we call the sentimental aspect of love or sentimental connotation of love. That is when you use the word with your friends, with your family, with your partner. So when you tell them that you love them and so on. This is the most common connotation of love. But then I use love in a much broader way. That is what we call the humanistic connotation of love. This was used by some thought leaders like Carl Rogers or Abraham Maslow orh from the humanistic psychology that observed that you don't have to love only your close circle. But also love doesn't include only a sentimental aspect of connection to others, but also include a volitional aspect. You decide with your will to connect to others in a positive way, in an expansive way. And this broader connotation of love we call humanistic connotation. Love includes some values such as compassion, gratitude, generosity, care, support, kindness. So this means that compassion will be one of the byproducts of the this broader connotation of love. What I observe in companies, companies that apply on a practical level these values of. Of this wider connotation of love, for example, they are more generous to for example stakeholder, they are more grateful to stakeholder, they are more compassionate. This company tend to be tend to have person better brand image, better reputation.
- [33:42]
C
Why?
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B
Because they are not only for the money, they care for people. And when people care for people, this is obviously has a positive impression on other people. Positive image and positive brand image. When you have a positive reputation in business and positive brand image, this attract more talented people to work for this company. People don't go only for the money. They go because they feel supported. They feel that they're contributing in a meaningful way. Also that they attract high quality investor.
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C
Why?
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B
Because high quality investors don't look only for profitability, but they look for investment projects that have a social impact, that have a positive environmental impact. And also this has a better interconnectedness with all the stakeholders.
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C
Why?
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B
Because stakeholders feel that they're supportive and they tend to support the company positively in pretend. So this means that compassion will be one of the byproduct of this wider connotation of lab. I'm not the only one using my book the LAB as a broader concept. But I observe for example one paper that is very well known that is titled what LAB got to do with this. And these researchers interview many companies like the Tina Turner son. They interview many companies to see what makes up a loving workplace. And a loving workplace is a workplace where people support one another, they care for one another and has all this effect that I mentioned before. Lower absenteeism, lower turnover, higher customer satisfaction and higher employee satisfaction. So this means that love is much more commonly used in the workplace and also in the business environment and also in the business books.
- [35:19]
A
I'm very pleased you mentioned Carl Rogers. He's certainly one of my heroes, I think as a, as a psychologist and a therapist. And you're absolutely right, he referred to love and, and kind of non possessive love and of course unconditional positive regard and, and loving regardless. Yeah, those. That, that's where he was certainly coming from as, as well. And, and that that broader sense actually has a few different components to it. The, the, the compassion, the generosity, the care, the kindness and the other things that you mentioned. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You've mentioned employees and in the book you talk about the importance of seeing employees as individuals, I guess, as opposed to commodities, resources. Like you were saying before, what are some of the practical steps that businesses might take to make this shift into sort of seeing employees as individuals and approaching with love?
- [36:28]
B
Very interesting question. So what I will say, I give in a full chapter, different tips. First up, employees shouldn't be feeling fearful in the workplace. What are the most important interactions especially where employees tend to feel fearful? For example, when the manager give employee feedback, in some cases the employee is fearful many days before receiving this feedback because they feel that they will be penalized, they will be punished like a naughty child. Well, this is very wrong.
- [36:59]
C
Why?
- [36:59]
B
Because when you give feedback in a non constructive way, this employee tends to withdraw, tend not to cooperate, they tend to feel ashamed with all these emotions that are contracted. Instead, how you can give feedback in a positive way, for example, highlighting things that the employee did well. But instead of focusing on problems, wording the issue as a problem, this means you did this thing wrongly. You word this as a challenge, as an opportunity to improve instead of saying you did this wrongly. We can improve this in this way and that way. We are here to support you. Also you offer them tools. So for example, you say we can improve the way that we deal with productivity and we can offer you mentoring programs, we can offer you coaching programs, we can offer you training on the job. So you offer them tools and also you have positive expectation about them. There is a famous. Obviously you know about this famous effect called the Pygmalion effect, that when you have positive expectations about people, you tend to treat them accordingly and they tend to respond alike. When you believe that they are capable of acting in a, in a positive way to improve, that they have a growth mindset, that they can learn things, you treat them accordingly and this is converted in a self fulfilling prophecy. They tend to react in a positive way instead. When you treat them like they were inefficient or unproductive, or they are lazy, you might think, oh, this is the place, you tend to treat them accordingly and they tend to respond alike. So positive expectation, telling them that you trust that they are capable of meeting your expectation. So you give them confidence and also you make them feel that they are competent and you support them with tools. This is one important thing. Another important thing is continual training and enhancing their skills. Many employees are working in the wrong position.
- [38:50]
C
Why?
- [38:51]
B
Because their skills, their innate skills or natural skills are wasted. So why not to do, for example, an assessment of skills and capabilities before these employees start working, to see what are the main skills that they can use to contribute to this company in a meaningful way, but also train them on a regular basis. For example, with seminar conferences, coaching and any workshop, any type of event. This will be very important. But also considering that the employees in some cases are very needy of what we call autonomy, autonomy and competence. So can you allow them to make some decision without consulting you as a manager? Is it possible to do. Can you allow them to craft what we call job crafting, to craft their position, for example, selecting the tasks that they will perform, selecting the scope, selecting how they will relate to other people and trust in their expertise and their experience instead of treating the like naughty children. And then of course you can provide them with some guidelines. You can supervise and help them if they have some doubts. But not continually controlling, because controlling is based on distrust. When you control people, you are continually distrusted. Then you don't believe that they will do things well. You are fearful of them making mistake. You are fearful of going outside the rules and also not complying with the rules. You are fearful of them wasting resources. And when people feel that they are distrusted, what they expect them to cooperate? No, distrust. Generate more distrust. We want the trustworthy workplace, trust based workplace, so where people can connect to one another and can contribute with their best resources, their best potential. So this is quite important. But also when you make employees feel well, not only from the economic perspective, but also you made them feel recognized. For example, many companies, what they do. They organize events, public events, where they highlight the achievements and they name the persons that contribute to this achievement, to this project, to this objective. And they might give an award maybe to this person publicly. For example, some food company, they have the employee of the month. I know that this is a very simple way to contribute, but this works.
- [41:06]
C
Why?
- [41:07]
B
Because employees feel that they count. They are proud of their contribution, made them feel proud of their contribution and connect their contribution to the big mission. You can say, you know what, this project that you finished the other day, contribute to the company's mission in this specific way. So you relate this small task, this small project with a big mission. So these are a few ways to be supportive with employees. And also, can you be more generous with this employee? Because many companies tend to focus only on a good salary. They want to pay a good salary. That's it. But what about additional aspect? You can be generous providing employees with intangible things. Intangible means they cannot be perceived by sensing. For example, can you give employees a year when they have some problems? Can you give this employee flexible time to work when they have some family issues? Can you give this employee mentoring? Can you give some technical advice? Can you provide this employee with contacts that are relevant to them or relevant information? So companies that are generous according to research and my experience, tend to bring about more generosity in the workplace. Because when the manager and the company itself is generous with employees, this employee tend to go the extra mile. They tend to work harder without being asked why? Because they feel that they are recognized, the heart is stood and is taken care of.
- [42:33]
C
Why?
- [42:33]
B
Because they feel that they're not only these cog in the machinery, they are real human beings were being taken care of.
- [42:42]
A
Yes. When the company and. And the leadership come from a place of humanistic love, it's very natural to want people to grow and flourish. And, and so that becomes like the, the sort of, the. The consequential kind of motivation is, is to help everybody to, to. To grow and flourish.
- [43:04]
B
Yes. And I wanted to add to this. I agree completely with this assertion that employees should be consulted on a regular basis. Why? Because employees know a lot about their position. For example, we have employees that are customer service officers continually in contact with customers. Can we consult these employees to know if customers are served well? Or we can implement new processes or systems to serve customers in a much more effective way.
- [43:29]
C
Why?
- [43:29]
B
Because they are the one continually dealing with customers. So this is very important. Some companies have what we call an open door policy where they allow employees to Contact manager and comment about their own ideas and give feedback. Some company, for example, in the case of Netflix, the movie producer company, any employee in the company can allow themselves to give feedback to the managers. So not only to other colleagues, but to the managers. So this means that the manager have an open mind.
- [44:01]
C
Why?
- [44:01]
B
Because they are willing to receive some feedback. They don't believe that they know it all. They're not arrogant, but they're humble. They're willing to receive many companies. I mentioned a company called Target, that is a merchandise retailer, very big chain with hundreds of thousand employees, 100,000 employees or more, that this company conducts service on a regular basis in order to get feedback from the employees about the workplace, condition of the workplace that can be changed and improved. And also about customers, customers that are obviously how they can be treated in a much more effective way. How can they be delighted? So this is quite important. So companies are obviously bringing about this feedback and they act in a humble way and employees feel that their contributions are taken into account.
- [44:51]
A
Let me give you a sort of an example of someone that I've been working with and just see, see what you think. It's someone who's a. A lawyer, A man who's a lawyer. He's sort of midway in his particular legal firm. And he literally said to me that he, he certainly doesn't worry about, you know, kind of threats from the opposing lawyers. You know, that's fine. That's a. That's a known threat. I can deal with that. I don't feel any particular threat from the client or the person that I'm trying to represent because, you know, they're really wanting me to, you know, kind of be on their side. And that all sort of works. Where the threat comes is my colleague in the next room who is going to try and take my clients or win work off me or, you know, there's. That. There's a kind of a culture, I suppose, there of really very relentless competition that seems to be going on. What are your thoughts there? What comes to mind in that sort of a scenario?
- [46:01]
B
I have a few thoughts on this. I feel that the approach is wrong. I don't want to criticize this person. I don't know, but it's wrong.
- [46:08]
C
Why?
- [46:09]
B
Because when you are fearful of colleagues, you cannot cooperate, you cannot trust them. And we see that most of the business project, most of the endeavors in business are interdependent. You need colleagues, you need to interact with colleagues. In some cases, you need some information, you need some contacts, you need them to help you with some aspect. And when you are fearful, this is what we call the negative side of politics. In an organization, you try to outpace each other. When you try to outpace each other, you are competing. And this means that you cannot be loving, you cannot be compassionate, you cannot be trusting, you cannot be supportive, and you cannot be grateful either. So this means that you cannot create the relationship.
- [46:48]
C
Why?
- [46:48]
B
Because obviously you want to satisfy your needs and you're fearful of them certifying their own needs at the expense of yours. So it's a win lose, this is a win lose approach. Instead, what is will be the alternative way of approaching this. Having an honest conversation, explaining the fears to the other person and also clarifying, clearing the air and also explaining that they can work together. Looking for common ground. That implies looking for the relational aspects of this, of this issue. This means that you're not trying to look for the substantive aspect will be or who will get the project, who will get the money, who will assume the cost. But you try to preserve the bond. How can we contribute to this bond? Because we need each other first, you recognize the interdependence. We need each other, we're working together, we rely on each other. How can we contribute to each other? And how we can develop a win win approach where you win, I win and we support each other. Because if you have a untrustworthy workplace, like in this case, or you have an interesting relationship with a colleague, this brings about costs. Cost mean that you won't get some resources. This implies cost of time wasted. In some cases you might have to sign a contract, you say with this colleague to see, okay, these are my condition, these are my. This is very costly. Instead, when you have trust based bonds, costs are reduced. We call transaction costs. Cost of contracting might not be needed. The relationship more direct people are willing to cooperate. So I think that an honest conversation is important. In many cases, the people are not willing to have this conversation.
- [48:23]
C
Why?
- [48:23]
B
Because they only talk about business and they don't talk about the relationship. But here the focus should be not on the business issues or potential, but on the relationship. How can improve this relationship with you? How can we improve? How can we not I. How can we. So the we approach instead of the I approach. This means I care for you. I'm sure that you might care for me. But the idea is how can we get an agreement and a bond that is long lasting. It's not transactional that I might win and you lose, or you win and I lose. But so this is a much broader Approach. So this means that my advice to this colleague will be focus on the relational aspect because at the end, if the relationship is broken, you will be affected too because you are interdependent to this person to a certain extent. To big or a small extent.
- [49:10]
A
Yes. Sort of fear and greed, I suppose, are the dark side of the politics in, in corporations. And it leads to a very threat based kind of approach and a very competitive approach. And, and it leads to at best, in some ways, win, lose, but often it just leads to lose, lose because yeah, both parties end up kind of losing in, in certain ways. But no, that's, that's really, I mean, I, I think it's, it's, it's tricky because I was gonna say he would say that the other person kind of is a threat, but you made the point that it's, it's we, you know, like what can we do to collaborate and work together and find common ground and, and build a relationship that, that can feel, well, cooperative, but also just sort of safe. It takes a lot of wisdom too, doesn't it, in a way to be able to do all of that.
- [50:06]
B
I want to add something else to this also. There is some research that when people in the workplace like these two colleagues act in a kind way to one another in a cooperative way, customers are feeling, feeling that this workplace is kind, supportive. And customers are more likely to get committed to this company.
- [50:26]
C
Why?
- [50:27]
B
Because people are acting in a coordinated way to serve them. Imagine people are fighting with each other. How they can serve customer, the clients effectively if they're fighting with each other. Instead, when everyone is working in a coordinated, cooperative way, trusting way, so they trust each other, customers are more likely to be delighted. And I mentioned the word delight many times in the book. It's not the same satisfying customer that delight in customer. When people work in a loving workplace where people care for one another, they're compassionate, they're supportive, they're kind to each other. This workplace tend to serve customers much better. We saw that there is higher customer satisfaction and customers feel that their expectations are exceeded. So the difference between satisfaction and delight is that satisfaction. You meet just what they expect, so you give what they expect. When you are obviously in a workplace that is much more meaningful, supportive people are much more compassionate to each other. These people, this employee, tend to serve customer in a much more delighting way. They tend to exceed customer satisfaction. For example, they might give, for example, some incentive. Instead of providing only the law advice, the legal advice, they might provide with additional tips. They want to serve Customers, they don't want only to sell their product. They have a serving attitude. And serving customer doesn't mean servitude. This means that you want to add the highest value to them. You can only do this when you trust your colleagues, when you are integrating your skills with other skills that are complementing yours from other colleagues. If not, there is an internal conflict and this will be reflected outside the company with other stakeholders, with customer, with a community member. So there should be a common front. When people work comparatively in a trusting way, you save cost, things are quicker, people are feeling much more comfortable, and also you develop this psychologically safe workplace brought about, as we mentioned before, a lot of benefit within the workplace and outside the workplace.
- [52:33]
A
It really occurs to me as you're talking that you use the word stakeholders, I suppose, but in a way the other word is just people and relationships, isn't it? You know, like whether it's within the organization with customers, with suppliers, with competitors, with investors, with the community, it's all just people.
- [52:54]
B
Yes, yes. There is an interesting author called Freeman that observed that we're not talking about stakeholder, we're talking about flesh and bone human beings with families, with problems, with expectation, with dreams. This is beautiful.
- [53:07]
C
Why?
- [53:07]
B
Because in most of the workplaces you tend to focus on the differences. Differences mean differences in the roles, authority hierarchy, and also differences between the role within the company, for example, employee and customer. But we don't focus on the commonality. And according to some psychological school of thought, when you focus on commonalities, you tend to build up stronger bonds. So what is the commonality? That we are all human beings, we have expectation, we have positive experience, negative experience, dreams, we have fears, we have challenges. In some cases we feel insecure. And so when you connect to a much more basic level, this means what get us together. Human beingness, you tend to build much stronger bonds. However, people by default tend to focus on differences. You are the manager, I am the subordinate, I am the customer service officer, you are the customer. And these roles, in some cases we saw that they don't reflect the human being. So these are only a very small part of the human being. And so this is quite important.
- [54:10]
A
We were speaking just before we started recording about the YouTube channel and, and the, the sort of, the efforts that, you know, that I'm putting in with, with compassion in a T shirt and, and it's a similar thing we in, in the YouTube world, we often talk about the algorithm, but of course the algorithm is just people too. You know, it's just people who have a relationship with you and with your channel. And, and it's actually a really, really sort of profound idea for us to, you know, in all sorts of endeavors in our life. Actually. It's, it's human endeavors and it's with people and it's, it's, it's around relationships. And so, you know, what else but compassion in some ways?
- [54:51]
B
Yes, yes. And also I agree with your assertion. What I want to say is that people, in many cases by default, in some cases, because they don't have a sense of awareness, they tend to dehumanize others. For example, I give you a very simple example. You go to a restaurant and the waiter will say, oh, bring the food to table four. It's not the people sitting at the. This is a very subtle thing we use in our vocabulary. Or for example, this, this account, for example, you have a bank manager and say, oh, this account is to be closed. No, this is not an account. Maybe an organization with families behind that are sustaining this organization. So dehumanization is in our current language, in our common language. And this also tends to have effects on how we treat people. If you say that they are a table instead of people eating and having a good time, how you would expect to be treated. So this means that we have to be aware. Also our vocabulary, vocabulary is very important because in business we use a lot of what I call word mongering, vocabulary, strategy, tactics, competing, beating others, how you expect to cooperate. If you use this word from the military, military sector. So this means that you cannot cooperate. However, you see other business book that are using much better words, much more insightful words such as cooperation, alliances would be very important so that make people feel that they can connect to other in a much more meaningful way.
- [56:25]
A
So tell us a little bit about humanistic love, creativity and a healthy business environment.
- [56:34]
B
Very important. Well, according to research, when people feel positive emotion, they're more likely to expand their resources, including intellectual resources such as creativity. So creativity is more prone to happen when people have a. Experience a positive emotion instead. Fear, for example, a much more contractive emotion, make people feel focused on the threat or something that is threatening them. So this means that the connection between creativity and positive emotion and positive values, including compassion, will be that when you allow the workplace to be much more compassionate, when you foster a much more supportive workplace, a much more loving workplace, this workplace tend to feel for most people that is more competitive. But also people tend to act in a much more productive and creative way. But many, many authors will say that creativity is an act of love. You bring something into being because of the love of this creative process. But also creativity could be used in a loving way. I mentioned some example. I will give you an example now of company that use creativity to add value, to improve the community, to bring about a positive impact on the community. There is an interesting example of a company called Hippo Roller. It's a social enterprise that is obviously providing with what we call a container, 90 liter container that is rolled with a handle over the floor with the axis and also this container, how they use this container, why did they design this container? They upset that many less developed countries, for example South African countries, women and girls were taking most of their day to collect water for sanitation, for irrigation. And what they were using, they were using buckets, they were using buckets to collect the water. In some cases these buckets were very heavy, difficult to carry. And they were creating some health issues in these girls and women, for example, spinal issues, spinal health problem. And also they were taking most of their time. So this means that girls couldn't go to school, women couldn't go to work. And this social enterprise developed this Hippo roller that allow the women to carry and roll this, this container over the floor. And it's very durable. This means that can be used for any type of soil. And this container collect a lot of water in a very short time and can be carried very quickly and save a lot of time and allow these women and girls to devote their time to much more meaningful activities such as work and school. But also this social enterprise developed some partnership with some non profit organization like Rotary Club, for example. And they donated some Hippo Rollers, these containers to for example, teenage mothers in Lesotho. That is a country that has very challenging needs regarding poverty and also unemployment. And so this means that this invention, this device was developed to bring about a positive social impact to community. This means bring a solution to the matter of water for irrigation, sanitation and other basic needs. So this means that creativity could be at the service of compassion. But when you are compassionate, you are more likely to bring about ideas that could serve people in a meaningful way, that could contribute to their life and improve their life in a meaningful way.
- [60:02]
A
It's a lovely, lovely example, Bruno. I, I feel quite convinced, I, I, I, you've convinced me that humanistic love and, and including compassion is a really powerful positive influence on, on business and, and, and work and, and that sort of thing. And how much headway do you feel we're making? Is this something that is being adopted in a Rapid way Is it kind of just a little iterative kind of process. And where do you feel like it's heading in the next decade or so?
- [60:39]
B
Next decade? Well, hopefully we meet again in a decade. Maybe we don't talk about this topic. Everything will be solved. But this is unlikely. But I feel that it's going very slowly because you have still company that are not. They don't have a very high sense of awareness. They believe that they can get away only focusing on economic aspect, focusing on their own economic asset like key performance indicator, profit market share. And they forget the concept of interdependent that this company cannot succeed without employees, cannot succeed without customer, cannot succeed without community member and supplier and other stakeholders. And in order to succeed they need to build this mutually beneficial relationship with a stakeholder, robust relationship with stakeholder long term relationship. So I feel that some companies still are behind. Many companies are still getting aware of this. But companies also are aware that when you are compassionate, when you are socially oriented, when you are environmentally friendly, this bring about better reputation. You are portrayed by the media in a positive way. You can attract better resources, for example, high quality investor, talented employees. Companies are aware of this. In some cases they don't do this, this conversion out of their hearts, but they do because of their convenience. But they know that by doing so they might get much more economic benefit. I feel that there is a long way ahead. Maybe in 20 years time we talk about this. I say oh, you remember Bruno, this book is already outdated. This is my dream. But I know that this is unlikely to happen maybe in 20 years time we are still talking about this topic but it's a promising pathway that we see that many companies what I upset that many companies are obviously catching up with this new way of perceiving business. We call this a much broader way of perceiving business which include economic aspect. Don't say that we have to sacrifice economic aspect, economic aspect and people and the planet we call the three Ps profit, people and planet. None of this is more important than the other.
- [62:43]
A
Yeah. So if a business leader was hearing you speak and kind of feeling a little bit motivated and perhaps looking to transform some of their or their organization with compassionate principles and you could give them just one bit of advice, what would it be?
- [63:04]
B
Well, first off, treat employees and other stakeholders as human beings. How you can do this on a practical level. First off, understand that these employees or the customer or other stakeholders, they're not only their roles, they're human beings that have different types of needs, economic, social, Mental emotional needs. First of all that need to be addressed. For example, in the case of employees, how you can appreciate employees on a regular basis. For example, can you develop some events? Can you develop a system within the company where colleagues appreciate the contribution with one another? Can you give san award to the employees that are performing in a meaningful way and contribute them to the company in a meaningful way? But also can you allow them to connect in a much more non business way? Many companies what they do, they organize social events. For example, once a week, at the end of the week where employees have a dinner together. They chat about the weather, their family, their hobbies. And they know each other in a much more personal way. This doesn't cost anything to the company and. But also they allow them to come back to work in a much more revitalized way.
- [64:15]
C
Why?
- [64:15]
B
Because they knew each other beyond their roles. Manager talked to a subordinate, one to one in an equal way in a condition of equality. And this means that the workplace, the bonds in the workplace become stronger, much more brighter. So can you organize any of these events? Social events that people do not have to talk about business topics. They talk about their lives, their fear, their expectation, their dreams. But also can you introduce some playfulness in the workplace? The playfulness is a topic that also I mentioned in one of the chapters. Many companies are very serious and the employees have to work and only go to work. And they don't have any way to connect to one another in a much more. In a less stressed way. So many companies, for example here in London, they have table tennis set in the workplace where employees during the break they can play table tennis. Nice. Or they have some, for example video games where employees when they having a coffee, they come. This is nice. Many people believe that when you are getting a bit playful, you will be less responsible. But it's the opposite. Because when you are you have some time during the work time that to to do this playful activity, you tend to come back to work much more revitalized. You are less likely to become stressed. Some companies like Google, they have like what we call nap pods. A place where employee can take a small nap half an hour so that they can relax, they can chill out and then they go back to work. We can imagine that Google is a very successful company. This work for them. But can you provide with some other tools. For example, some company like Google and Yahoo, they deliver meditation courses to employees.
- [66:00]
C
Why?
- [66:00]
B
Because they know that it's not only good for their mental health, but it's also enhancing the cognitive skills and People are less likely to become stressed. So treating employee pampering employees, can you offer them free food? Companies like Google also offer free food to employees so that the employee feel that they count. They're not only there to squeeze employee and also get exploit this employee. This is the wrong approach. We want to care for them because they are meta resources. So a very important self reflection question that many managers and people working for the company should ask. How can I be more supportive with these employees and other stakeholders? How can I be more generous and grateful with other stakeholders and employees too? How can I be more compassionate? How can I be there to help them whenever possible? In some cases companies have policies that are institutionalized for compassion. For example, employees have some problems at home, one of the dependents and they allow them to take a compassionate leave. Okay. Or some company have counseling services free for employees. Or this is quite important.
- [67:04]
C
Why?
- [67:05]
B
Because you care for the whole human being, not only for their role.
- [67:10]
A
Yes, it really is about sort of approaching the whole human being and keeping. Keeping that in mind and doing so with, with love and compassion. And there's many, many ways in many, many, all sorts of practical ways to do it. But, but that's, that's the thing.
- [67:31]
B
So.
- [67:32]
C
All right.
- [67:33]
A
Well, yeah, if people are interested in your work or would like to sort of connect with you or be in touch. Where, where, where could they find you?
- [67:43]
B
They can find me on LinkedIn and also they can check my website, www.bruno signaco with double c.com or they can check my book the Art of Compassionate Business, second edition white cover online, Amazon and any other bookshop or offline. And thank you very much.
- [68:00]
A
Great. Yes, I will absolutely have all of those links in the description below and I might also try to link that initial article that inspired you some time ago from Harvard Business Review and also the more recent article that you remembered as well. But yeah, Dr. Bruno Signo, thank you very much for being on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [68:25]
B
Thank you very much. Estan. I feel very honored to be here. Thank you.