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Compassion in a T-Shirt
Self-Neglect, Burnout, and a Compassionate Path to Thriving | Hayley Quinn
00:53:42
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl. Welcome to Compassion in a T shirt. Today's guest is a bit of a return favourite, someone who's been on the channel before and whose work focuses on burnout, compassion and what it means to live well. Dr. Hayley D. Quinn is a former clinical psychologist, now working as a wellbeing coach, speaker, author and host of the welcome to Self podcast. She's also the past president of Compassionate Mind Australia. So compassion isn't just something she's talked about, it's something she's lived, taught and led with. Today we'll be discussing her upcoming book, From Self Neglect to Self Compassion, A Compassionate Guide to Creating a Thriving Life, due to be published on 5th February 2026. All of Hayley's links are in the description below. Hayley's work focuses on burnout prevention and helping people build lives and businesses that don't come at the cost of their own personal well being. She brings together clinical expertise, lived experience and a very real understanding of what happens when we keep putting ourselves last. And so I bring you Dr. Hayley D. Quinn. Good. Well, Dr. Hayley Quinn, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.
- [01:24]
B
Thank you so much, Stan. It's a pleasure. And a pleasure to be back as well.
- [01:29]
A
Exactly. I was looking that up actually, and 6th of June 2021.
- [01:35]
B
No way.
- [01:37]
A
So time flies.
- [01:39]
B
Wow.
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A
Gee, June 21st, we were still sort of reeling a bit from COVID and, and yes, that was, that was when it was. Wow.
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B
Gosh, A lot's changed since then.
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A
A lot's changed since then, including you've written a book and it's about to come out officially in, in February. And you've chosen to center this book around the idea, I guess, of self neglect, which I thought was really cool because in some ways it's a term that perhaps people don't always think of or use explicitly. So how do you understand self neglect? You know, why do so many of us fall into it, I guess. And what, what, what tends to, to be the costs there?
- [02:24]
B
Yeah, so I guess, you know, we could, we could look at a definition of self neglect where people are, you know, not eating, not showering, neglecting their environmental space and those sort of things. But, but in the book I'm talking more about these kind of more micro moments of self neglect, those smaller moments where we are not paying attention to what it is that we need. And this can show up. The book is aimed mainly at women and gender diverse folk and this can be the sort of messaging that a lot of People have had around not taking care of their own needs, not recognizing what their needs are, perhaps putting everybody else first, realizing that they're perhaps organizing life for their family, their children, but not doing the things that they need to do for themselves. Or even things like not celebrating their achievements along the way. I work with lots of people who just do not stop to acknowledge what they have achieved, whether big or small, and to take some time to celebrate that. It can be moments where you're perhaps justifying why somebody's treating you the way that they treat you, rather than seeing that this is actually harmful for you and not doing anything to change that. It might be staying in a job that you really don't like because you're thinking that that's what you need to do or that's what you should do, rather than, what impact is this having on me? How is this impacting the rest of my life? So. So it can be lots of micro movements. And I think if these things happen periodically, that's one thing. But a lot of the people I work with, these are the sort of things that are happening daily, weekly, monthly, year upon year. And I think the way that this can impact us is multifaceted. It can have impacts on our interpersonal relationships where we perhaps might start to build up resentment because we're doing lots of giving out, but. But we're not getting the things we need. That might be because we're with people who don't want to meet those needs for us. Or it might be that we're not expressing what it is we need. And sometimes people will wish that people knew what they wanted. But as we know, people aren't mind readers. And sometimes we need to express what we need. But to do that, we need to recognize that we have needs in the first place. And even, you know, going back when I was working as a psychologist, I'm no longer registered as a psychologist, I would work with lots of people who would really struggle to recognize and articulate what their needs were. And I think this can be for many, many different reasons. So we can have this. That we build this resentment that starts to form because we're not getting our needs met in life. But also it can also impact us emotionally for ourselves, but also physically as well, because we're not tending to the things we need to do. And ultimately, if we are continually neglecting ourselves, one of the things that we can find is that we end up in burnout. And I'm really passionate about burnout prevention because recovering from burnout takes a lot of time, a lot of energy, money, impact on your health, impact on your relationships. So if we can actually prevent this from happening, then the costs are less than if we actually find ourselves in burnout and we're having to recover from that.
- [06:03]
A
Wow, that's a really great capturing of the concept. It really is. When our psychological, physical, relational needs somehow missed or take a back seat or sacrificed or, you know, there's something there that sort of happens and can happen, you know, on the regular little moments of the day can then sometimes persist for a long, long time and before we know it, really difficult things have set in. Resentment itself is a very painful and erosive feeling, isn't it? But also burnout, of course, and just exhaustion and feeling depleted by, by not having those needs met. I know you're obviously a real CFT person and, and I am too. And a lot of the listeners, for example, are aware of things like the three circles model. I, I wondered what's your thoughts about self neglect? Maybe from the point of view of the, the threat system or drive system. Any, any comments there?
- [07:06]
B
Well, I think, you know, when we think about the three circles and I talk about the three circles in, in the book and whilst I use that as a therapeutic model and framework when I was a psychologist, that work is how I live my life and it's how I work with all my clients. So it's certainly not anything I'll ever let go of. But I think, you know, that there are so many reasons why taking care of ourselves can put us into our threat system. And again, depending on people's family of origin, their experiences through their life, I think there's many things that can trigger the threat system. And if we haven't developed that soothing system, one of the things we know that can happen is people move into drive to try and settle the threat. And I see this a lot, I work a lot with high achieving women and I see this a lot where they start to overload, overwork in a way to be enough, do enough, settle how they're feeling and again, we're on a pathway to burnout with this sort of thing. So if we can start to actually change this relationship with ourselves so that we can recognize what we need and then also take compassionate action, whatever that might look like. And we can use our soothing system to help regulate, to help manage when we need to, then we can avoid kind of falling into this trap of being in drive and being in threat based drive a lot. And I'll also say with this because I do work A lot with high achievers and there can be this fear that it means then they shouldn't be high achieving. So I want to distinguish between values aligned drive that we can be connected with our passion and our purpose and work that is meaningful and that can be really helpful and healthy. And then the threat based drive where perhaps we feel like we have to take care of everybody else first before we can take care of ourselves because maybe we had a parent that didn't have capacity to take care of us, perhaps we were having to look after caregivers when we were younger. Or if we have had messaging. I speak to a lot of people as different things come up of, you know, if you take time to go and sit down, somebody might have said to you when you were younger, what are you doing sitting around? Don't be lazy, you should go find something to do. And people start to get this messaging of like it's actually not okay to rest, it's not okay to go slow, I have to be purposeful all the time. And I think that can throw us into this threat based drive which again like I say, can send us down that son of pathway to, to burnout, resentment, exhaustion, all those things. If we can recognize this and we can have a relationship with ourselves where we get to a place where we can practice checking in with ourselves, we can understand what we need and we can feel okay meeting those needs, then I believe we can actually prevent those things from happening.
- [10:21]
A
Overdrive, perfectionism, masking, maybe they come from a threat based motive to self neglect. And then yeah, there's sort of, lots of kind of difficulties might fall out of that. There is a, there is sort of a compassionate aspiration or you know, those sorts of things that we can work towards. But it's that, it's that sort of threat based drive which then makes me and last little clarifying question about self neglect, I guess. But where is self criticism then potentially fitting in as part of what might be maintaining the self neglect?
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B
Well, I think, and again, you know, I think we need to look at ourselves. And this is where I always say to people it's really important to understand yourself, your own experiences, your own history so that we can then think about okay, where is that coming from? That may be something that has been developed from, from very early in life as we know. Perhaps you've had a very critical caregiver and you've internalized that. Or it may be because like for me for example, I had a very toxic relationship with myself prior to being very grateful to finding compassion Focused therapy and forever grateful to Professor Paul Gilbert. Certainly been life changing for me. But I had a lot of self criticism, I had a lot of trying to prove myself because I didn't feel like I was good enough. I would push myself in a harsh way all the time to try and do the things I thought I needed to do. I'm also a late diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD. I was 52 before I found that out. So I'd spent my whole life feeling defective, feeling like I'd been dropped off on the wrong planet. I didn't know what was wrong with me because I didn't fit with either people I was trying to fit with or circumstances I was in. So I think there's lots of stuff around that that can be, I guess, perpetuating the self neglect. You know, it's not okay to stop. You've got to keep going. Because they certainly, in my experience, for my own personal experience, but also in the work that I do, they very much tend to sit hand in hand that if somebody is quite neglectful for whatever reason that the self criticism can sit along that. It's like that I've met somebody that is overly people pleasing, highly perfectionistic, high achieving in a threat based way that doesn't have a robust self. Critic.
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A
Yes, the, the critic sort of beats us into self neglect a little bit, you know, for the, for the sake of others and, and achievement and all the, all the rest of that. Actually your, your book, the first part of your book really is about starting where you are and getting to, to know yourself more honestly. How would someone begin that process? How do we turn towards ourselves in this open hearted, open minded way to really get to know ourselves more honestly.
- [13:45]
B
So in the book, the book is very reflective. There's lots of practical questions and there's really beautiful meditations throughout the book as well. But for me, I start with, and this was my journey. I started with thinking, well, if I was going to meet a new friend, what would I do? And I would actually ask them questions and then I would listen to what they said. To the best of my ability, I have adhd. Sometimes my brain zooms off somewhere else. So I thought, well, what if I did that with myself? What if I actually tried to understand who is Hayley and what does she like literally down to do I prefer tea or coffee? What's my favorite color? Starting with some really simple questions and then obviously going deeper with that in terms of what do I need in terms of how I operate in the world, how did I feel about that experience I had when somebody invites me to something, can I allow myself to slow down and really pay attention to whether it's something I want to go to or am I feeling obliged? So for me it was like, how would I get to know somebody else in a deeper, meaningful way if I wanted to befriend them? And then how can I turn that around and actually do that with myself? Because I want to be my best friend. I want to be my greatest cheerleader. And through compassion, focused therapy and embodying the work that I've done, I absolutely am my greatest cheerleader and my best friend and my wisest guide. And it makes me smile a lot because I just think about how my life was previously and how my life is now and it makes such a difference.
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A
It makes me smile too. It really resonates. And in fact, that's just such a beautiful insight for the viewers or listeners that have made it to this point in this conversation. This is a really great takeaway. I'd love to hear from people about what you think about this idea, but. Yes, how one might meaningfully befriend someone new. And that same approach with oneself, you know, asking questions, really listening to the answer, you know, but taking that, that approach is, is so interesting. You mentioned preferences and I remember Paul Gilbert mentioned at one stage that sometimes, or it might have been Graham Music on, on one of the episodes that mentioned that for those of people who were neglected as a child that preferences are often really difficult. Like it's hard to pin it down and to know really what my preferences are because I've never been really encouraged to have them. What do you notice there in terms of people who are also more self neglectful and maybe have a history of criticism or neglect themselves and trying to do this disentangling of preferences.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah, look, I think first of all I would say some. This, this isn't easy work. And I say this in the book, like, this isn't easy work. This is asking us to face things that are challenging and have been challenging and to do things differently. And we know that as humans, behavior change is hard because if it wasn't, we'd all be living our absolute ideal lives. Right. If it was easy. So first of all, I'd say like, go gently with yourself. This isn't something you need to change overnight. This is an ongoing relationship you're going to have with yourself. And like any relationship, this will change. So what what you learn about yourself today is not, if you wrote it all down and in you know, six months, a year, five years, 10 years, you went back to that and asked yourself who you are and what you like and what you do. That's not going to be the same list. It was highly unlikely it's going to be the same list. It might be that you want to do this work with a therapist or a coach or somebody, or buy my book and work through it with a trusted friend. But, you know, it might be that you want to have that support. But also you don't need to know the answer straight away if there are some things you are curious about. I think bringing that curiousness and. And, sorry, curiosity. I don't know what curiousness is. Just made up a word, same thing makes sense. Curiosity and openness. And maybe there's some things you might like to try on. It's like, well, actually, I'm going to see if I like that. So I'm going to do that thing or I'm going to try that thing or eat that thing or whatever it might be, and then I'm going to reflect on what that was like for me and did I like it or not. And like with some things, we don't want to just try them once and say, that's not for me. Sometimes we need to do things a few times. But some things you might try and just know instantly that that doesn't work for me and that's okay, or that doesn't work for me right now and it's something I might come back to later. But I always say, go gently with yourself. Anyone that knows me or has listened to me, I say this a lot, go gently with yourself. And that's not about being passive. It's not about, you know, just giving yourself an easy mark all the time. It's about understanding that you don't need to have everything fixed. You don't need to put pressure on yourself unnecessarily. No matter what needs to happen or what's going on in your life, you can do that with a gentleness. You can bring compassion to everything that you do. And as you know, Stan, sometimes compassion is about saying, take a break, take it easy, go and rest. And sometimes compassion is about do that hard thing. Because if you do that hard thing today, then tomorrow is going to be easier. So I'd say, like, go gently. And if you need support, have support. But you don't need to have all the answers today.
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A
Lovely. I was speaking to Ross White last week on the channel, and his phrase that he mentioned was strong intentions, light attachment. And it Sort of reflects what you're saying a little bit. That we have a strong sense of wanting to move in a direction in a sense and especially based on values and kind of creating that meaning. But we sort of hold lightly to how it should happen or when it should happen or what the outcome must be. It's also got a little, almost a graduated exposure element to it, doesn't it? That we just little steps getting used to it, gradually getting there. Your book also invites readers to reconnect with values and hopes and this sort of possible future self. In a way, hope has been really interesting to me lately. But when people are a bit burnt out, that can feel sort of hard or a bit daunting. How do you help people to perhaps open up to possibilities or reconnect their values without it sometimes Meaning that they slip back into the threat based drive with it maybe or something like that. How do you help people find their way with that?
- [21:18]
B
Yeah. So again, I'd say start small and also acknowledge that you probably will slip back into threat based drive. That's highly likely. With change comes discomfort. And it can feel hard. And I always remember hearing people when I was working as a therapist and also working as a coach, you know, it's hard. It's hard. And I say it myself, oh, it's hard. And what I hear in that is you don't like it, you don't like it and you don't really want to do the thing that would make it change. You'd rather do the thing that's familiar because it's easier. Right. And this. And people might not like hearing this. This is one of those uncomfortable truths sometimes. But we have to be willing to be with some discomfort. Yeah. If we want change because any change comes with it, some discomfort, even if it's positive change, we have to let go of something else. Yeah. And I think it's that thing of, you know, I talk in the book about what dreams did you let go? There might be things that people do know what it is they want, but they let go of them because life got busy or they had children. It's like, but no, I'm now a parent so I can't focus on what I want. I have to just be a parent. Whereas we can actually have both things. We can have a life that feels nourishing outside of parenthood and be a good parent. So thinking about what are some of the things that you've perhaps left behind that you've let go of? I think I talk about them sitting in the dream Corner, collecting dust.
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A
Oh, yes.
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B
And then thinking about what might be some possibilities. Can we allow ourselves, even if it was for two minutes, to just daydream and see what shows up and again, be curious. Always bringing this curiosity and that. We don't have to change everything all at once. I think when we try and set very big goals to change everything or intentions to change everything, we can very much end up in threat because it starts to feel very overwhelming, like, well, I can't change all these things. It's impossible. I don't have time or I don't have resources or I don't have the space, whatever it is, what might be one small thing that could be different. So again, it's that going gently with yourself, not trying to take everything on all at the same time. So starting small and as best you can, taking the pressure off.
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A
And curiosity or some, some may call it curiousness, but that. That comes up again, doesn't it? Especially with values. Like it's a sort of. It's a curious pursuit in a way. What are my values?
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B
How.
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A
What's important to me? What have I maybe left behind, you know, or. Or even kind of sacrificed to do these other things? And they're those sort of ly words, aren't they? Living, living wisely or persistently or creatively or, you know, but what might that be? Are there little techniques you bring in the book that helps people to sort of explore their own values?
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B
There are exercises. You have me think I have adhd, so oftentimes I forget what I've done, but there are things. And also looking at whose value is this? Because I think one of the common things that can happen is we actually collect other people's values, Particularly I find, with the neurodivergent among us. I talk about, having described myself as a chameleon in the past, and I think a lot of people who find themselves in those kind of people, pleasing perfectionist, all this stuff we've been talking about can find themselves kind of morphing themselves into a version of what other people want or need them to be. And in that you can take on other people's values. So I think an important piece of this is when you think about what your values are, is then to look at them and think, well, actually, are they mine? Where did I develop that? And more importantly, do I want to move forward in my life with it? Or is it something I can acknowledge that actually this was a value of somebody else's, whoever it might be. And I'm going to focus on the values that I know are truly meaningful to me.
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A
Yes, you sort of allude there to kind of the next big theme of the book, which really is about self compassion and boundaries, I suppose, you know, being able to understand how we're, we're separate from and not separate from, I guess, those around us and, and how just the importance of, of compassionate or self compassionate boundaries are. And, but they're hard too, you know, like all, all of this is, is the work, isn't it?
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B
Absolutely.
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A
The classic thing with self compassion is not necessarily just what feels good. It might be what's good for us in a sense, but it's hard and boundaries are hard. Why do you think those sort of compassionate or self compassionate boundaries are so hard for many people, even when they often know too that perhaps they're needed.
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B
And again, I think coming back to those individual life experiences of what messaging you've had, both from family of origin, but also society. And we can also fear. I mean, we have to remember as well that we're social creatures. It's built into our DNA to be part of the group and not disrupt that. You know, for our ancestors that was really dangerous. That old saying, a lone monkey is a dead monkey. We want to stay as part of the group and we don't want to rock the boat. So if we're doing something, if we're putting a boundary in place, particularly with people who are not going to like that, we have to remember the people that don't want you to have the boundaries the most are the people that benefit the most from you not having boundaries.
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A
Yes.
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B
So being really clear, and I talk in the book about, you know, either perhaps role playing with somebody you've already got good boundaries with to practice, or starting with somebody you know is one of your easier people in your life. And I think we can all bring to mind who are the people that we feel safer with and who are the people that are more challenging in our life. Don't start with the people that are more challenging. You want to. We always want to be getting the small wins along the way. Yeah. So I think that kind of real biological. If I put a boundary in and it upsets somebody else, then I'm in danger. And we have to remind ourselves we're not living the way our ancestors lived. That same danger doesn't apply. There may be risks to relationships. It may be that you start to put boundaries in place in relationships and it will disrupt that relationship and it may end up ending that relationship. But I would also then say you would Want to look at what was happening in that relationship, that healthy boundaries disrupted it. And is that really a relationship you would want to maintain anyway? And obviously that's different for if it's friendships or family or whatever. I mean this isn't, this is all complex as we know. But if you putting boundaries in place was really going to disrupt a relationship, I'd be questioning the quality of that relationship in the first place. Because they were probably benefiting from you not having boundaries.
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A
I suppose. Yes, they would have their own tricky brains that they're trying to manage as well. And I've often thought about boundaries too, from two purviews or something. One is the purview of the other and expressing it to the other and being able to sort of express your boundaries to them and so on. And the other is holding us, ourselves almost to our own boundaries. What are your comments there?
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B
Yeah, fantastic. I love that. I think you're very right. There are the boundaries, the external boundaries that we put out there and, and these may be negotiated with people and also to remember that they can look very, very different with different people. Because with some people you're going to need firmer boundaries.
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A
Right.
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B
And with other people they can be quite unspoken because they're not people that kind of overstep anyway. Then we have the building of self trust and I think that comes from having boundaries with ourselves that we then don't violate. So if it's something that we want to do in terms of taking care of our health and well being, we have things in place of, you know, I'm not going to stay up till midnight every night. I'm going to make sure I have a, you know, for me it's important that I get my sleep. So I have a bedtime routine and I have a window that I ideally go to bed and I meet that 90% of the time with some flexibility that if somebody invited me to a party that I wanted to go to, then I might be out later and I'll get home late and go to bed late. But in doing that I'm building trust with myself. Sleep is really, really important for me individually. My day doesn't go so well if I don't sleep well. Every time I go through my sleep routine and go to bed within that, that window I'm building trust that I know how to take care of myself. I'm reminding myself every evening that I value my well being. It might be if I wish I was as good with exercise. I'm working on that. That is a work in progress and has been for a long time. But whatever those things are for you, it's setting that for yourself and then meeting that. And every time you do you build self trust and every time you don't try to remember to have compassion for yourself because none of us get this right all of the time. I'm yet to meet a human being that says I'm going to do this Monday to Sunday morning. These are the things I'm going to do. I'm always going to meet my mark. I've never met anybody that can do that and I'll be surprised if I ever do. So remembering that we are never going to get this right all of the time. And that's okay.
- [32:43]
A
Yeah, it's sort of going for some of the low hanging fruit sometimes, isn't it? But even they can be difficult, I've found that difficult not to get caught back in scrolling, for example and then that ends up keeping me up later than I really actually would me personally prefer. I, I'd rather be asleep before then. So yes, it's, it's, it's hard and.
- [33:09]
B
I talk a lot of different things about like sleep opportunity in the book as well and that importance of, you know, we can't control how much sleep we have, but we can control the sleep opportunity we give ourselves and things like not taking your phone into the bedroom and scrolling, which is hard but. And this is in no way a sponsored ad, but I have just gifted myself something called Brick which allows you to navigate when you want to use your phone and when you don't. And I have to say it's absolutely fantastic. So finding things, I think this is the other thing is knowing that we don't have to have all the answers ourselves. We don't have to be able to just white knuckle this. I'm not going to scroll on my phone. I'm not going to scroll on my phone. Tonight's going to be the night we can look at things, technology support from other people that can help support and scaffold us with the things that we want to do.
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A
Yes. I was thinking this morning, driving along somewhere that my biggest excuse is well, I need my clock there for the alarm. And then I thought I could always get an alarm clock. I mean I need my phone for the alarm. Yeah, but I could always get an alarm clock. So yes, it's sort of little scaffolding can absolutely be helpful because the final part really of the book is about creating a life that actually does support wellbeing and so on. But as you've just been saying, it's kind of hard. And I suppose the you've mentioned there a few bits but yeah, people moving from the insights in the book to making it real and making kind of lasting changes, they feel ambivalent. There are barriers that arise. You know, there are mixed motives behind all of that, especially some of those evolved motives we were talking about earlier. You know what helps there for people really to make some lasting changes?
- [35:09]
B
Compassion. I'm such a believer and I don't just talk about self compassion. The book title actually came to me, it just kept dropping in my head. And whilst it says self compassion, I am a big advocate for always talking about the three flows of compassion because I think we can get caught in especially there's so much on social media that does only focus on self compassion. And I think one of the things with that that can be tricky is people think oh well that's just about focusing on me and it's selfish and all these things that can start to show up and we know it's not. But I think that's, that can be a barrier. And the other thing I find that people really struggle with is the receiving compassion. And Stan, it's funny, I should just realize that you are one, you are one of the actors in this part of my life. I use the example of being in New York and falling at Dennis's house and of course surrounded by compassionate people. We were all there to talk at the compassion retreat and everybody flocked to me to see if I was okay. And in my head at the time it was screaming for you all to just. I wasn't being polite in my head, I can assure you, but to go away. And I was so shocked because I had developed this self compassionate relationship and I was like, I've nailed this compassion thing. I'm like so self compassionate. My relationship with myself's changed so much. This is wonderful. And that part was. But I was so shocked at how distressed I felt that all this compassion was flowing towards me. And I can remember that you and Yottam actually had to help me walk. I couldn't walk and that was a really uncomfortable period. But it was also such a blessing because that made me realize that I had to cultivate this willingness to let compassion in. And I think when we're trying to make these changes in life it is understanding because I think most people find giving compassion out the easy flow. Most people I meet are really good and often doing lots and lots and lots of that, sometimes to their detriment. Because it's not flowing in any other direction. So yes, we want the self compassion but we also want to be able to welcome this compassion in. And then in the book I talk about all the different life domains. So this isn't just like one area that we want to focus on and then everything's going to be great. I talk about all the different things, physical, emotional, financial, spiritual, cultural, occupational. Like thinking about the intellectual stimulation you need, thinking about the things you need to keep your body well, your mind well, the social connections and spending some time thinking about that. And then like I said earlier, knowing that you're not always going to get this right, this isn't about I'm going to change the relationship with myself and become this perfect human and then I'll be really well and everything will be fine. I mean that's just unrealistic. It's bringing then that compassion piece in that I'm going to do my best to take care of myself and on some days my best is going to look like one thing and on other days it's going to look like something else and it's all okay. But if I can keep checking in, if I can really cultivate this relationship with myself and keep checking in with myself of what I need, not only am I going to be able to nourish myself and give myself what I need, but then I'm going to be resourced to do all those things I want to do. To take care of other people in the way I want to take care of them, to do the work I want to do in the world, to maybe stand up for some injustice somewhere. But if I'm depleted, I can't do those things. We are the greatest asset we will ever have in our life. And if we aren't well and if we're burnt out, we can't do any of the things we want to do. We can't be the parent we want to be to the children, we can't be the partner we want to be. We can't work in a way we want to work, we can't pay attention and stand up for the things we want to stand up for in life.
- [39:36]
A
And I mean that really is one of the big implications of self neglect is it just can deplete us so much that those really important things become impossible. I remember that injury to your poor ankle. That was a really difficult one and I can really relate to. I don't know, it's almost like a self conscious emotion that rises up when people try to help you And I feel I had to have a fairly minor procedure in hospital yesterday and, but I could feel it, you know, it felt like a fuss was being made and I just had to really breathe through it. So receiving compassion is, is a tricky one. The other thing though, I remember from that conference was when you presented, you gave the story of how you arrived at welcome to Self, which if I remember rightly, was during. I won't sort of tell your story just in case, but you know, you arrived at welcome to Self and it sounds like a similar thing almost happened with the title of the book that, you know, this, this title just sort of came to you in a, in some way or another. What was it like to write the book? You know, to kind of start that journey, to get to the end, to edit it, you know, and, and actually probably was wondering, did, did you find that some of the dilemmas addressed in the book came alive in the writing of the book?
- [41:09]
B
Well, first of all, it, it was, it's been an absolute pleasure to write the book. I'd heard people say, by the time you get to the end of the book, you're sick of seeing it. Not at all. I've really enjoyed this whole process. I started writing a book that was aimed purely about self care for therapists about four years ago and I almost had a contract with a publisher and it just didn't feel right. It, I. It was not the right book. So for whatever reason that got put aside, January of this year, I thought, you know what, I'm just going to do that similar book, but it's going to be for women in business because I work mainly with women and gender diverse people in business. So I started writing the book and I was about 10,000 words in and this title, from self neglect to Self Compassion, just dropped into my head and I was like, what? I'm writing a book, go away. And then it kept dropping into my head. So I got curious and I was like, why is this? Like what? So I mentioned the title to two or three friends separately and every single one of them said, oh my gosh, I've got goosebumps. And I was like, oh, okay, well I gotta write the book then, haven't I?
- [42:21]
A
And call it that.
- [42:22]
B
So I thought to myself, that's okay, I'll just write two books at the same time. Yes, high achieving ADHD woman. But anyway, I then realized very quickly that that was not the best idea. And I wrote the book in 16 sittings. It just flowed out of my, like, it was the book, the book was ready to be written and it picked me. So I wrote it and then going through, I worked with the publisher, so I did my editing and then I had an editor as well who to be honest, sent back next to nothing on the editing process, which was really a really beautiful time for me. I dropped out of school early, ended up with a PhD and I write regularly for a magazine. But for a lot of my life I've had a lot of self doubt, haven't really been able to see myself in terms of my capacity. And over the last few years I've been really starting to be able to see who I am and what I'm capable of. So getting my edits back from a professional editor and that really was like had said, I can always already think of people who I want to give this book to and very minor edits. That was, I guess, more information for me to be able to be like, I am a writer and I'm a good writer. And that felt really lovely. But one of the things that was helpful through the book was I'd chosen my submission date as my wedding anniversary. I like things to be meaningful in my life and I knew that I had to get the book submitted the first draft submitted on that date. And I also knew that I wanted to go out for lunch and celebrate with my husband and not feel rushed because the book is called From Self Neglect to Self Compassion and it's all about this kind of stuff. It really helps me just stay very true to how I want to live my life. But there were also times where, you know, I think when we're less resilient. I was talking to this to a client about this this morning. You know, when we are less resilient, the gremlins show up quicker, right? The self doubt is stronger. And I had times where I was like, who am I to write this? Why would anyone want this? And then I had to remind myself, well, you got a lot of experience in this, you've got a good writing style, this book has chosen to be written. But really being able to be compassionate with myself and have times where it was like this just feels hard. There was that. I've put some of my story in the beginning and there's times in my life that have been extremely challenging. I've had my own mental health challenges and I talk about that in the book. So there was times where I was really conscious of going gently with myself and bringing compassion to myself and reminding myself it is hard. And you know this, you've written a book, you're putting yourself out into the world, it's a vulnerable thing to do. I had the, I guess privilege, privilege is the right word there. But to send the book to 11 very generous beautiful human beings who read the book and gave feedback that is in the front of the book. And when I went to send that to those people, that was a time where I was like, I think I want to be sick. So being able to be compassionate, it's like, of course you feel this way. These are people you respect. These are people who, you know, work well in that field. These are people who might think your book is a load of rubbish and.
- [46:13]
A
They'Re not gonna know how to tell you that.
- [46:16]
B
Like there was all this stuff, but I was able to come back to this compassionate relationship that I've developed with myself which was so, so helpful. And like I say, the book itself has been, it, it couldn't not be a reminder to myself throughout the whole process to remember the things that I, I do and the work that I do. And one of the, one of the biggest compliments I get often from people is how I walk my talk. And I do because I know what life is like, living a different way and I know what that was like for my health, mental and physical. And I don't want to live like that. So I believe in this work and it's been absolutely life changing for me. And like I said at the beginning, I'll be forever grateful to Professor Paul Gilbert and all the other wonderful people who I've done my learning with along the way and the privilege it was to be a psychologist and to be able to see this work change other people's lives as well.
- [47:20]
A
So yeah, the book and the writing of the book really is exemplar of what your really sort of trying to say and, and that, you know, this sort of, it's threading the needle a little bit, isn't it? Between the, the self care and the aspirations that we have, I suppose and, and the values, sometimes the mixed and competing values. But you know, being able to, for example, submission date was on the date of your wedding anniversary. And, and you know, we, we can, we can do that. We, we can live according to values that might be sort of difficult to put together, but we can do it especially when we have the, the self, self care, the opposite of self neglect, the, the self appreciation, the self compassion, the self care and so on, you know, kind of in the background and creating a solid ground. I mean if someone's listening and, and you know, just recognizes this dilemma I suppose, you know, they're feeling stretched, they're feeling exhausted, they've been quietly neglecting themselves. And yet they do have aspirations, they have goals, they have things they'd like to do. What's one small or one kind of kind step, perhaps, that you'd invite them to take from here?
- [48:44]
B
I think for me, I get asked this question a bit, and I think for me it's that, can you just check in with yourself? Can you literally take 30 seconds, everybody? Like, even if you're the busiest person on the planet, you have enough time to just slow down a moment and check in with yourself. And I know that's not easy, but if you could just ask yourself, how am I feeling? And for some people, that could in itself be quite hard. They might not recognize that. Or, what do I need? What do I need right now? Maybe it's a glass of water. Maybe it's to just look out of the window. Maybe I've been at my computer for hours and I literally just need to let my eyes look into the distance for 30 seconds. Maybe it is saying to somebody in your life who feels like a safe person for you, I don't feel okay. And I want this to change. You might not know how, you might have no idea how you're going to do that, but you're acknowledging. Or it might even be saying to yourself, oh, I don't feel okay. And I want this to change. Like, it doesn't have to be some big thing. It might be in the morning, I'm going to go for a walk. Like, it could be so different for everybody, but it's that thing of, if I could just ask myself, what is one thing that would be helpful right now? What would that be? And that's going to be different for everybody.
- [50:32]
A
Yeah. A pause, a checking in. How am I feeling? What am I needing? And maybe also that little added sweetener of inviting others in, safe people, but just letting them know or having that support, making that a first little step in that direction.
- [50:56]
B
Yeah. I think for me, and I talk about this in the book, that we can want to avoid ourselves. And I get it. I did that because being in touch with myself was painful. I didn't want to know what was going on. I didn't want to listen to the inner dialogue because it was brutal. But not connecting with myself and not listening to that meant that I lived a life that was full of pain and suffering and I didn't allow myself to dream. And there wasn't a huge amount of joy in my life. So whilst checking in with myself was probably one of the hardest practices, it's become one of my favorite. So I can't wait to meet myself in the morning when I wake up, I'm like, hey, how are you going? How did you sleep? What have you got on today? What do you need? Do you need any help to do that? Is there anything that you've got in that, in your diary that really you don't need to have in there, you could get rid of? Or like I have these conversations with myself, if I'm feeling depleted, I'll go back to my calendar and I'll look and I really will be really radically honest about what needs to stay in here right now. And if, and if you find yourself going, oh, but everything, everything's important. Okay, well if you keep doing everything and then you're burnt out in six months time, how's that going to be? Because that is the reality and it can sound a bit harsh. It's like we can, we can make every reason why we have to keep doing the things we're doing and doing everything for everybody and not taking care of ourselves and not getting to that doctor's appointment. But what's the cost? And what would your 80 year old self think of that?
- [52:43]
A
Wonderful stuff? Well, I better let you go. I know you've probably got stuff to go on to do or whatever it might be, but I was just thinking, the first time we met, on Compassion in a T shirt, you talked about self care essentials. And so it's really just a joy to see the development of your ideas and the way that you've followed your nose a bit or just been sort of inspired along the way and this title came in and then before you know it, 16 sittings later you have a book and it's very, very exciting. I'll put links and so on to all of these various things that we've mentioned today in the the Description. But yes, Dr. Hayley Quinn, thank you very much for joining me on Compassion in a T shirt.
- [53:39]
B
Thank you so much, Stan. It's been an absolute pleasure.