Why We Self-Sabotage (It’s Not What You Think) | Charlie Heriot-Maitland

Summary

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Compassion in a T-Shirt

Episode: Why We Self-Sabotage (It’s Not What You Think)

Guest: Dr. Charlie Heriot-Maitland
Host: Dr. Stan Steindl
Date: April 17, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Stan Steindl welcomes Dr. Charlie Heriot-Maitland—clinical psychologist, author, and compassion-focused therapy (CFT) expert—to discuss his new book Controlled Explosions in Mental Health. Their engaging conversation unpacks why our minds can turn against us with self-sabotage, self-criticism, and self-harm, and reframes these processes as having hidden protective purposes. Using the metaphor of “controlled explosions,” Dr. Heriot-Maitland encourages listeners to approach their suffering with curiosity and compassion, rather than shame or avoidance. This episode offers rich theory, practical models, and relatable personal stories, all aimed at empowering listeners to better understand and compassionately address entrenched psychological patterns.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The “Controlled Explosions” Metaphor

[03:06 – 06:46]

• Dr. Heriot-Maitland introduces "controlled explosions" as a metaphor for self-sabotaging behaviors.
  • Inspired by bomb squads conducting intentional detonations to prevent larger disasters, this idea captures how certain “harmful” mental patterns (like self-criticism or procrastination) can paradoxically serve a protective or adaptive function.
  • Quote:

    “You create an intentional, targeted, precise harm or explosion to prevent some larger, out-of-control, overwhelming, even more risky harm from happening.”
    (C, 05:37)

• Many mental health interventions risk missing the hidden, protective drivers beneath problematic behaviors if they focus solely on suppression.

Evolutionary Perspective on the Mind's Protective Bias

[08:41 – 11:27]

• Brains are wired primarily for survival, not happiness.
  • This evolutionary lens helps reduce shame: when our minds “go wrong,” it’s not a personal failing but a result of protective biases.
  • Quote:

    “It’s really important actually, this evolutionary backstory...because if we can understand that brains actually have natural built in biases that are not going to serve us in terms of our happiness and well being, then we're less likely to beat ourselves up when something does go wrong.”
    (C, 09:31)

• Self-criticism and stuckness often come from misunderstanding this fundamental design.

Mapping the "Bomb Squad"—Parts and Protective Patterns

[11:45 – 17:43]

• The “bomb squad” is a cast of 15 characters in Dr. Heriot-Maitland’s book, each embodying common self-sabotaging or self-critical behaviors, ranging from everyday patterns (procrastinator, pessimist) to more severe symptoms (self-harm, addiction).
• Examples:
  • The Procrastinator: Avoids tasks to protect against fear of failure or judgment.
  • The Pessimist: Sets low expectations to guard against disappointment.
  • Quote:

    “Understanding your brain as a protection obsessed survival machine helps us make sense of why we sometimes sabotage things in our lives.”
    (C, 13:58)

Personal Reflections on Self-Sabotage

[17:43 – 21:45]

• Both host and guest share experiences of “hiding” after publishing their books, illustrating how these protective mechanisms show up in everyday life.
  • Quote:

    "I put so much time and effort into writing it and then, when it came out, I just hid, I hid the book. I didn't tell anyone...it was entirely a protective process."
    (C, 18:42)

• The process becomes harmful when it prevents meaningful engagement with life goals.

The Self-Criticism “Unit”

[21:45 – 28:03]

• Self-criticism is described as a highly evolved, protective response to social threat, rooted in the need for acceptance and avoidance of exclusion.
  • Internal monitoring keeps us aware of our “flaws” to prevent social punishment or abandonment.
• Hostile self-critics, especially in those with trauma, can be extremely damaging—but their intent is still self-protection.
  • Quote:

    “Our self critic is constantly monitoring ourselves for weaknesses, things that I might do that might make me a target from, but from other people. So it’s a protective process to keep us safe from social threat and shame and exclusion.”
    (C, 22:41)

Interplay Between Different Internal "Bomb Squad" Members

[28:03 – 30:39]

• Multiple protective processes can operate at once, sometimes targeting each other—e.g., self-criticism directed at self-sabotage.
• These patterns persist until the underlying driver—the “power source”—is compassionately addressed.
  • Quote:

    “If you’re just putting plasters on the symptoms and not addressing the causes...another one pops up. So you’re not actually treating the causes of the suffering. You're just playing that arcade game, whack a mole...”
    (C, 28:56)

What Are the “Greater Harms” Being Averted?

[30:39 – 33:24]

• Underlying the bomb squad’s actions are deeper threats: fear of rejection, humiliation, abandonment, or re-experiencing trauma.
  • The aim is for listeners to adopt a curious, de-shaming stance—discovering what personal histories and fears lie beneath their behavioral patterns.

Conceptualizing These As “Parts”

[33:24 – 36:09]

• The metaphor intentionally borrows from “multiple selves” and “parts” models (e.g., IFS, schema therapy), which allow us to relate to internal patterns as individual actors with specific jobs.
• By taking a relational approach, individuals can cultivate a compassionate stance toward their own minds.

The Continuum of Human Experience: From Everyday to Extreme

[36:09 – 40:35]

• Dr. Heriot-Maitland highlights the importance of viewing mental health experiences, including psychosis, on a continuum rather than as categorical differences.
  • This de-shames extreme suffering and fosters a sense of common humanity.
  • Quote:

    “Mapping the range of examples from day to day to extreme voice hearing on using the same metaphor for me is a way of bringing us all together so we can understand each other a bit more, and that stigma can soften, shame can dissolve.”
    (C, 37:18)

Bringing Compassion to the Bomb Squad

[41:26 – 45:47]

• Rather than suppressing or fighting internal protectors, compassion involves understanding the harm they seek to avoid and gently engaging with those underlying fears or vulnerabilities.
• Dr. Heriot-Maitland encourages using imagery exercises (e.g., visualizing the different parts/characters, “balcony view”) to bring compassionate awareness and make wise choices.
  • Quote:

    “If I can meet these underlying fears and vulnerabilities and traumas and hurts with compassion, then these controlled explosions might become less necessary in my life.”
    (C, 43:34)

Practical Application in Therapy and Everyday Life

[48:14 – 50:17]

• The model proves useful not just for personal growth but in therapeutic work as well.
• Therapists and the public alike can use the bomb squad framework to label, relate to, and compassionately address protective processes.
• Plans are underway for further courses and programs to help therapists and the general public apply these insights.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• “How can something be helpful and unhelpful at the same time?...Controlled explosions is really a metaphor that helps us hold these two conflicting truths together.”
  (C, 06:29)

• “Our brains are not serving us for happiness and that’s not our fault. And it helps us start learning how to work with our brain, our tricky brain, rather than against it.”
  (C, 10:21)

• “I could take a balcony view and see, okay, this is what my threat protective system is doing...It's keeping me hidden and I could see that there’s also a sabotaging function...It’s both helpful and harmful.”
  (C, 18:42)

• “That’s why we need to identify and address the power source underneath. Because one bomb squad member can replace another...These protected processes will keep playing out until we've actually addressed the underlying fear.”
  (C, 28:56)

• “The idea of a continuum has always been what’s actually grounded so much of my work...for me is a way of bringing us all together so that we can understand each other a bit more and that stigma can soften, shame can dissolve.”
  (C, 37:18)

• "Compassion is about creating something of a sense of safeness for those different parts or those different systems that are at play."
  (B, 46:49)

• “Once you're in a relationship with something, you can choose what type of relationship you have with it and you can choose to have a more compassionate relationship with that process.”
  (C, 35:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:06] – Introduces “controlled explosions” metaphor
• [09:31] – Evolutionary perspective and destigmatizing suffering
• [13:58] – Examples of bomb squad characters (Procrastinator, Pessimist)
• [18:42] – Personal stories: hiding after writing a book
• [22:41] – Function and roots of the self-critic
• [28:56] – The symptom “whack-a-mole” and need to address fears
• [33:54] – The “parts” model and personification in therapy
• [37:18] – Continuum thinking for destigmatization
• [41:26] – Compassion in practice: responding to inner protectors
• [48:48] – Practical use in therapy and future developments

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Flow & Tone

The conversation is thoughtful, validating, and gently humorous—anchored by both academic insight and lived experience. Scientific concepts are made accessible, and listeners are encouraged to approach their struggles with humility and self-kindness. The metaphor of "controlled explosions" repeatedly helps reframe self-defeating patterns as acts of internal protection, not weakness or defect. Practical imagery and exercises are referenced but the overall focus is on deep self-understanding that empowers wise and compassionate choices.

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Practical Takeaways

• See self-sabotage and self-criticism as misguided (but well-intentioned) inner protectors.
• Cultivate “curiosity over judgment” toward your inner bomb squad—ask what harm these patterns are trying to prevent.
• Use the "parts" or "multiple selves" frameworks to relate to difficult inner experiences with empathy.
• Seek the "power source"—the underlying fears or vulnerabilities—and bring compassion to those, rather than simply trying to suppress symptoms.
• Recognize you’re not alone: all humans have bomb squads of their own, and understanding this continuum supports common humanity.

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For more, explore Dr. Charlie Heriot-Maitland’s book Controlled Explosions in Mental Health and his Compassion for Voices video.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Dr. Stan Steindl and welcome to Compassion in a T Shirt, where we explore the science and practice of compassion and how it can truly transform lives. Today, I'm really pleased to be joined by Dr. Charlie Herriot Maitland. Charlie is a clinical psychologist well known for his work in compassion focused therapy, particularly in the area of psychosis, where he's helped shape more compassionate ways of understanding experiences like voice hearing. Many of you may already know his widely shared Compassion for Voices video, which has helped so many people rethink their relationship with difficult inner experiences and also offers a very clear and accessible summary of both the theory and practical steps

[B]

of compassion focused therapy.

[A]

He's also the author of Relating to Voices Using Compassion Focused Therapy, a really influential contribution to this area, and now brings us a powerful new book, Controlled Explosions in Mental Health. In it, Charlie offers a deeply human and compassionate way of understanding why our minds can sometimes seem to turn against us through self sabotage, self criticism, and even self harm. And how these processes might actually be trying to protect us from something even more difficult. This is a thoughtful and important conversation about making sense of the mind and learning to meet it with compassion. And so I bring you Dr. Charlie Herriot Maitland.

[B]

Doctor Charlie Herriot Maitland, welcome to Compassion in a T shirt.

[C]

Stan is such a great pleasure to join you as being one of your biggest fans on the podcast. Really excited to be able to chat to you today. Thank you for having me.

[B]

That's very kind of you and likewise, I'm a big fan of yours and congratulations on your latest book, Controlled Explosions in Mental A Compassionate Guide to Understanding why Our Brains Self Sabotage, Self Criticize and Self Harm, published in January. Just gone.

[C]

Yeah, it's all. All still very fresh and a little bit up in the air. So. Still feeling a little bit anticipatory nervousness about whether people are reading it or what they're thinking, how it's landing. So yeah, it's. Yeah, we're still in that kind of that fresh new zone of the book.

[B]

Yes. Where some of the explosions are still going off, no doubt. I mean, the title of your book, Controlled Explosions in Mental Health, is striking. Really? Can you start by explaining what you mean by controlled explosions in the mind and why you think this might be a helpful way to understand things like the self sabotage, self criticism and even the self harm.

[C]

Thanks, Dan. Yeah, so, so from, from really early on in my career, I've just always been struck by how our minds have a tendency to lead us to act in a way that seems quite self defeating. I've been a mental health worker therapist researcher for many years and, and yeah, this has just been something that I've always been curious about. And so really early on, just when I started working with mental health difficulties, I was also reading a bit of Carl Jung at the time and Carl Jung had a similar intuition. He kind of thought like, why, there must be some purpose, there must be some meaning. Why would brains just self defeat and sabotage goals and things that are important to us. So yeah, I was really kind of curious, like why do brains do this? What else is going on? What's driving this? Is there some function or some sort of helpful adaptive purpose that's not really on the surface? It might not be kind of obvious what that is. What if we looked behind that at some of the drivers? And I think one of the tricky things for us humans, it's hard to hold these two truths in mind that something could be both harmful and helpful. It's quite a sort of complex, contradictory impasse really. How can something be helpful and unhelpful at the same time? And, and so when we can't make sense of that, we tend to simplify. If we see harm, we just naturally conclude, right, this is bad, we need to stop this. And this can lead to kind of just suppressing symptoms, medicating the harm we see, just making it all go away. But we might be missing something really important behind there that's driving these symptoms. So these things that on the surface look quite harmful might be serving a function for that. So controlled explosions is really a metaphor that helps us hold these two conflicting truths together. Something that at the same time can be both helpful and harmful. So obviously in a bomb squads, police bomb squads and military bomb squads, this is what happens with a controlled explosion. You create an intentional targeted, precise harm or explosion to prevent some larger out of control, unspecified, overwhelming, even more risky harm from happening. So it, the metaphor just fitted perfectly for me as something that maybe, you know, a large audience would be able to understand. Like, okay, so yeah, some we can create a harm to avert some other harm. So for me this kind of really helped just make sense of that sort of landscape of quite complex human experience that causes a lot of suffering.

[B]

Do you remember your Eureka moment? I mean, it's sort of a funny question, I guess, but yeah. When was it that this first occurred to you that the metaphor was like, ah, yes, that captures this dialectic almost that we face as humans?

[C]

Yes. There's a program in the UK, a TV program called Trigger Point, which stars amazing actress Vicki McClure and I think the first series was released in 2022, which is when I was kind of grappling with these ideas and thinking of writing another book. And yeah, this is a series about bomb squads who go around creating precise targeted detonations to, to destroy the circuits of a bomb, finding the power source, to really understand the mechanisms of a circuit that could cause harm, and then doing targeted interventions to stop that. So yeah, that I think before I watched Trigger Point, I was kind of thinking of some other, what are some other metaphors that might fit? Like, you know, the idea of being cruel, to be kind, but I don't really like that at all. So that, but that was something that, you know, might have captured how you might do something out of kindness that could be harmful. But it's, it that's, that wasn't quite working. But controlled explosions, I think everyone you know would get it. You can see, okay, yeah, this is definitely some explosion you're creating and there's definitely some really important protective function that that's serving. So yeah, it was credit really to the ITB program Trigger Point.

[B]

Nice. I'll have to check it out. But yeah, it's just a very evocative title concept metaphor. I think it pulls you in really as a reader to sort of with curiosity like what might this be about? I mean, early in the book you highlight a really central idea around the helpful side, I guess, which is that our brains evolved primarily for survival, you know, rather than well being. I often sort of say that the brain is exquisitely evolved to help us survive and reproduce, but doesn't seem overly concerned about making us happy kind of thing. And you know, how does the evolutionary perspective help us make some sense of these two sides? The fact that our minds sometimes seem to work against us?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's spot on. Like we often, we often expect our brains to work perfectly for us and you know, to work in a way that serves our goals and our well being and help us find happiness. All these things are really important to us. Inner peace and, and the problem is if we expect our brains to work like that for us, then when brains go wrong and when they don't do those things for us, we can turn that back in on ourselves. Maybe I failed or there's something wrong with me, my brain must be broken. So it's, it's really important actually this evolutionary backstory and foundation because if we can understand that brains actually have natural built in biases that are not going to serve us in terms of our happiness and well being then we're less likely to beat ourselves up when something does go wrong when we're suffering. Because it's when you have this, when you're suffering with your mental health and you have this whole additional layer of shame and self criticism and that's what really keeps you stuck, it almost like suffocates you towards, limits your progress towards any kind of recovery with your mental health struggles. So the d shaming function of that evolution, informed psychoeducation is so crucial. Our brains are not serving us for happiness and that's not our fault. And it helps us start learning how to work with our brain, our tricky brain, rather than against it.

[B]

Where does the bomb squad fit in there? Is the bomb squad in the way that we treat ourselves when we suffer? Is the bomb squad a part of the suffering itself? Where are you sort of know, kind of conceptualizing that?

[C]

So the, the controlled explosions metaphor is the thing that holds together the, the whole book and, and throughout the book we're, we're trying to map a range of experiences from the day to day examples of this to quite clinical, quite extreme versions of this that involve a lot of suffering. So controlled explosions is the metaphor and where the bomb squad fits in is that the book conceptualizes the bomb squad as performing these controlled explosions. So they're like these little characters where that can help us identify and notice when these controlled explosions are happening in our day to day lives. So if we are one of, if we're doing a sort of day to day controlled explosion that's quite self sabotaging, like procrastination. The bomb squad is a little character that helps us kind of explore that a bit more deeply. So we call it the Procrastinator. So this is the character that's performing that controlled explosion. It's trying to protect us from some feared harm by creating this controlled explosion for us. So the bomb squad is basically a way of honing into all the different examples across a big spectrum. So there are 15 bomb squad members in total, which gives us a nice way of structuring the book so that we can explore the day to day all the way through the continuum to the more extreme versions of self harm and addictive eating related difficulties that harm the body.

[B]

The self sabotage unit I suppose is it that has the procrastinator. Tell us more about some of the different characters that might come under the, the self sabotage one that you just mentioned.

[C]

Yeah, so things like the, the procrastinator and, and the pessimist, the chaos creator. So, so yeah, the the, the procrastinator is, is something that sabotages our goals and derails our plans because you know it. So for example, if you set out on a goal of writing a book, which I've done, you can experience that there are moments, a lot of moments where the procrastinator comes in to slightly derail this task that you've set out to do. And it might sort of take the form of, oh, have you checked your likes on your social media recently, Charlie? Or you know, do you want to see what's going on in the sport or on the news? So just take your let away with these little distractions. That might be one example of it. Now when you're looking at the sort of harm being averted, you know, we could be really curious about what is this? What are these little behaviors, sabotaging behaviors, protecting us from, from. So for me, this was becoming like quite apparent as I got close to finishing the book. It's almost like that kind of the, the fear of failure, possibly of, of you know, writing a rubbish book or, or the fear of judgment of, of what the critics might say on, on Amazon reviews or whatever, you know, so all of these threat based fears, these, these predicted fears of what could happen, they get more and more pronounced. So your procrastinator is kind of potentially helping you protect yourself from those. So we're always looking at the kind of harm that's being created, which is, yeah, taking me away from the, the thing that I'm trying to do, potentially sabotaging my work. And what's that serving? Well, it might be about a fear of averting a fear of failure, averting a fear of judgment, a fear of criticism, a fear that, you know, maybe this amazing idea for this book, this fantasy image I had for this book might actually turn out to be total rubbish. And that'll be really painful for me. So, so it's protecting feelings of discomfort, pain, fears of judgment, all those things. So this is just one example. I guess the other one that I mentioned was pessimist, you know. So you know, with a pessimist you're always trying to set the bar low. Like I'm always going to see the worst that could happen and I'm always going to, well, as we call it in the uk, your pint, glasses half empty, you always see the kind of, the downside of everything. And if you think about what's the protective function of that, well again, it could be protecting you from some disappointment. If you always keep the bar low, then you can't Fail, you can't fall so far when something goes wrong. So you're protecting yourself with these processes. So understanding your brain as a protection obsessed survival machine helps us make sense of why we sometimes sabotage things in our lives.

[B]

It's very helpful to listen to you talking about that because when I wrote my book I didn't have trouble finishing the book or at that end, but I really had trouble promoting the book. It was sort of almost like getting it done and then sort of just moved on and, and somehow felt, and I'm wondering what that it was kind of self sabotaging. I think it comes under that broad category. I think there was a bit of procrastination, you know, fear of failure. I think there was probably some pessimism as, as well that, you know, kind of feeling like it wasn't going to go well. And it does. I think you can sort of be curious, you know, what was that all sort of trying to protect me from? I suppose. And yeah, yeah, actually I had a

[C]

very similar experience with my first book which is a self help book for Voice Theory is related to voices. I, I put so much time and effort into writing it and then when it came out I just hid, I hid the book. I didn't tell anyone and it absolutely, I don't know if there were strands of this going on for you, Stan, but, but for me it was entirely a protective process. It was, I, I had been hurt in, in the past before by, by, by people, you know, public humiliation by, you know, by, by feeling betrayed by people. You know, there's, and the world that we live in is very quick to judge. You know, social media people with very strong negative opinions quickly jump in and put down your work. So we, we, we're picking, our brain is picking up all these signals all the time that if you put yourself out there you could get hurt. And, and, and this is something we're seeing day in, day out. So, so our nervous system is picking up this sort of catalog of evidence that it's scary, this stuff, it's risky. So hiding is obviously a safe way of not exposing yourself to, to people's negative opinions. And, and I, so I did see that so strongly with my first book. And I think maybe just being able to kind of notice that a bit to understand my own patterns. I could see from the, from the balcony, I could take a balcony view and see, okay, this is what my prep, my threat protective system is doing. It's keeping me safe, it's keeping me hidden and I could see that there's also a sabotaging function because I'm not all this, you know, work that I'm really proud of. No one's ever going to see it, so what is the point? So I could see that kind of trade off. It's a bit like the kind of the, the impasse, the two conflicting truths. It's both helpful and harmful. So it's being able to see that which did lead to choices for me. So I can see what's going on. What do I want? What do I choose? Am I going to let the fear and the protective process make my decisions for me? Or do I want to start kind of stepping up to make choices? Do I want to get my work out there? So I flipped it a little bit with my second book and I did make intentional choices to, to promote and to go on Stan Steinl's podcast. You know, this is me, this is me turning things around because I'm now running the show, not my fear. So, so I, I think, yeah, I hope that makes sense. And I don't know if that links with some of your experience.

[B]

It, it really does. And, and I was lucky enough to go on Chris Winston's podcast at the time, so, you know, he was very good to me as well, and so on. But, but the, the, the, the, the thing that's really nice about how you were able to then bring curiosity to it and understanding and wisdom and then also gentle encouragement and so on. That's the goal. Because I think what happens to me sometimes is the second unit comes into play is the self criticism unit. And I then feel critical about myself and my own self sabotage. And I think a lot of people can really relate to the self criticism piece of all of this, and I certainly do. I mean, so tell us a bit about the different characters here and perhaps the functions that they might be actually trying to serve.

[C]

Yeah, so self criticism is a really effective bit of protective kit that we've got hardwired into our brain. Know if you, if you think about again, the sort of evolutionary context, it's, it's obviously incredibly important for our survival to not get excluded from a social group. You know, if you get left on your own and excluded, rejected, abandoned from a social tribe or whatever in an evolutionary context, then you're toast. You know, you're on your own, you won't survive very long. So our brain has developed these very sort of, well, very kind of well calibrated ways of detecting cues of social threat. And our self critic is constantly monitoring ourselves for weaknesses, things that I might do that might make me a target from, but from other people. Our self critic is constantly scanning for any behaviors that might lead to me being punished or humiliated or rejected. So it's like an internal scanning system that's constantly saying what are all the worst things about you? Because if I can keep a tabs on those bad traits, things that other people won't like about you, then at least I can keep myself safe. I'll be one step ahead of them because I've picked up my own weaknesses, deficiencies. So it's a protective process to keep us safe from social threat and shame and exclusion. And so in the self criticism unit there are some kind of, there are some kind of quite day to day versions of this which are kind of, if I keep monitoring myself then I can try and improve the person I am. So we call that the improver. But then as you get, if as the stakes get higher, and maybe this would be relevant for someone who's experienced trauma in their life or someone who's experience some interpersonal threat, that maybe they have been really hurt by other people in their lives, or they have been abandoned or rejected as a child, or discriminated against, experienced racism, all the rest of it, then their self monitoring might, the stakes might be higher. And these self critics can be incredibly harsh and quite punitive and they can be quite hostile. And so we can then start looking at some of these other versions of self critic and what's the function of having a really hostile, aggressive voice. So sometimes it might be about internally stimulating protective responses in us. So if we've got a harsh self critic, what has been elicited in us is a submission response or if it's even harsher, what might be elicited in us might be a dissociation response. We can start to use this controlled explosions metaphor to, to think about, you know, why might it be functional to have to self stimulate my own submissiveness, to self stimulate my own dissociation. So, so this is what, this is the more kind of extreme ends of self criticism where we can think of these as submission makers ways of activating protective responses in us. And again, if you, if you take that kind of broad, broad step back in an evolutionary context, it might have been quite handy for us and our ancestors to have ways of self stimulating their protective responses. And you know, if, if, if we accept that protection bias is, is one of the reasons why our brains has evolved in the first place to protect us and help us survive, then it's not a big stretch of the imagination to think about why we might have ways of stimulating these protective responses. But again, it's kind of that trade off, isn't it? It's harmful. There's absolutely no question having a hostile self critic is incredibly harmful. Results in all sorts of depression, stuck and low self worth, like all these awful mental health consequences. But the controlled explosions metaphor just helps us hold in mind what is the protective function at play. Because when we can hold both those things together, we might actually be able to help and address some of those fears.

[B]

The metaphor is just really helpful. Like as I listen to you, I just kind of, I'm having a lot of little reflections and insights to be honest, as you're talking about this. So it's really great. And the thought that I'm having at the moment is the funny way that the different units might relate to each other. That for some reason, for me and my example, the self criticism is directed towards the self sabotage in a sense that that becomes the target of the critic. The self sabotage unit is already trying to protect me, you know, from some sort of disappointment or humiliation or ridicule or something like that. And then the self criticism comes in and then kind of also smashes me for that in a way.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Stan. That's why we need to identify and address the power source underneath. Because one bomb squad member can replace another bomb squad mother, which can replace another bomb squad member. These protected processes will keep playing out until we've actually addressed the underlying fear. That's the thing that's being protected. And it's like mental health symptoms across the board. If you're just putting plasters on the symptoms and not addressing the causes, the functions, then the symptom just transfers to something else. You get another, you address that and another one pops up. You address that, another one pops up. So you're not actually treating the causes of the suffering. You're just playing that arcade game, whack a mole, just whack that symptom and another one pops up. Which is why actually controlled explosions helps us hold in mind what is actually going on here, what is the underlying driver of this? Because that's what's, that's what needs compassion, that's what needs care and attention. And, and it takes a bit of time getting there. And it's difficult, it takes courage and strength to really sit with that underlying pain. But that's really what's driving it. And if we don't sit with that pain, yeah, we're just going to Have a constant whack, a mole session of different bomb squads replacing different ones because they're all protecting this underlying fear.

[B]

Yeah, sort of. It's like the controlled explosions are trying to prevent some bigger harm. Can you riff off that a little bit and maybe talk a bit about like, what are those bigger harms or what might they be, you know, emotionally or psychologically or relationally perhaps?

[C]

Yeah, so some of the. Some of the bigger harms might be like preventing a fear of failure, rejection, humiliation, abandonment. But also some of them might be been exposed to some of our own retraumatization. And this is really relevant when you think about clinical examples of this. Like some of these protective processes might be protecting us from some internal threats to do with some emotional pain, some trauma memories, some things from the past that are unresolved grieving, attachment issues. So this is where we get into the more sort of clinical formulation of maybe sort of underlying. Yeah, they. They're protecting us from retraumatization at the end of the day, from being exposed to this overwhelming emotional pain or. Or loss of control. So there are so many different examples and that. And that's why it needed a whole book really, to kind of. To map these out because there are so many examples. And I guess the book isn't really about, you know, let's try and exactly make. Decode this one and this one and this one. It's a way of thinking I'm trying to promote in the book a way of being curious about our suffering. So. So that it's de. Shaming. We're not just gonna kind of stick a plaster on it because to make it stop, no quick fixes, you know, it's a way of being with ourselves where we can lean in and be a bit more curious as to what might be going on. And it's gonna be different for every person. So there's not. The book isn't really a kind of. This is exactly what it's gonna be like for everyone. It's just. Have a look, have a look. Have a think about what might be the driver, what might be the power source here. And all of those above examples could be going on for people depending on their past experiences and traumas.

[B]

I'm not sure if I'm kind of slightly adjacent to the point with the bomb squad. These different psychological systems that can deploy these explosions when needed and so on. How helpful do you think it is for us to start viewing these processes? Is it sort of almost like multiple selves? Is it parts of the mind that are trying to do a job. How are you sort of thinking about it in that sense?

[C]

That's definitely a big influence. The idea of parts and multiple selves. I think our brains are very social, they're socially created. So if we can personify processes, think of these as characters with intentions or functions, this is actually using our brain, our social brain to its advantage because our brain has evolved to be a very social machine. So it gives us a way of choosing how to be in a relationship with these brain processes by thinking of them as characters, giving them names. So in compassionate, focused therapy, you give them names like the angry self and the sad self and the anxious self. In loads of other models they do the same, like schema therapy. Ifs, you know, you think of these as kind of parts with doing certain jobs. And that's. So this is not unique to cft. It's a well established technique in many therapies. And so yeah, the idea of the bomb squad does riff off that. And it's as a result of seeing how helpful this can be to set up a relational approach in therapy. So in my experience as a therapist, this has been a really good way of getting someone to be curious about their own brains and their own experiences. So taking that therapeutic principle and putting it, bringing it out into the general public, what if we could all kind of notice these patterns inside of us, have a quick way of naming that, have a quick way of labeling that and, and thinking about the relationship you have with that, that part. Because once you're in a relationship with something, you can choose what type of relationship you have with it and you can choose to have a more compassionate relationship with that process.

[B]

Yes, I, I really appreciate how the parts or the bomb squad characters are sort of given these names to work with, but that you can, they're also really tied to the, to the theory and the evolutionary theory and, and the CFT kind of integrated model of the mind that, that Paul Gilbert talks about and, and that really helps us to, helps to guide some of that curiosity about, you know, what's their purpose or what's their function and what is that sort of harmful and helpful, you know, kind of piece to them, you know, using, using the theory and a lot of the research behind that to help. One of the things I really appreciated is that you sort of, well, you mentioned it before, the sort of experiences, even things like intrusive voices or severe self attack, but, but on a continuum, I suppose, of processes that all of us, you know, the human brain, all human brains can, can Generate this idea of a continuum. Why is it important to, to understand these experiences in the broader human context?

[C]

So yeah, these extreme versions of this process has always been a big motivator for me. Trying to understand people who are hearing hostile voices and having intrusive, hostile experiences that are so overwhelming and so distressing. And that's where yeah, my interest in psychosis is probably a big motivator behind it and seeing that these experiences, as I've always done on a continuum throughout the whole population is incredibly de shaming for, for people with psychosis because one of the worst things that people experience is not just the psychotic symptoms themselves but, but the, the feeling that my brain is different or my brain is alien, my brain is broken. And this is often the message that people with psychosis have. And when you throw in that shame and stigma and rejection, social exclusion into the mix, then, then these clients have a, have a double whammy. You know, it's the struggling with the, these distressing voice hearing and they're being socially excluded and socially distanced and misunderstood. So the idea of a continuum has always been what's actually grounded so much of my work as a researcher, as a clinician. Some of my earliest research and academic work was all about looking at the kind of interface between spiritual experiences and psychotic experiences. Again looking at the kind of similarities between these similarities and differences, but seeing these on a continuum of distress and well being. So in this book, Controlled Explosions. Yeah, I guess one of the. Obviously I want to help as many people as possible, but that one of the real drivers for me is trying to bring everyone together as a common humanity by mapping sort of the range of examples from day to day to extreme voice hearing on using the same metaphor for me is a way of bringing us all together so that we can understand each other a bit more and that stigma can soften, shame can dissolve because we, we can see. Oh yeah, well, I've got similar patterns in this context and these are more extreme versions of that. So ultimately it is about how we help each other a bit more as a species with our mental health because mental health is not going away. It's going to be more and more of a challenge for us. So putting us on a continuum of common humanity for me is the way forward and it's always been a big motivator for me.

[B]

Yeah, it really makes sense. I like that notion that continuum actually promotes common humanity. I hadn't sort of thought of it like that. But yes, the idea that we're all somewhere on the continuum kind of creates a sense that we're all in this together in a way and can help with deshaiming across the continuum really. I suppose as well. Towards the end of the book you outline a compassionate approach of noticing and understanding the function and helping. So what does that look like in practice? I guess to respond to our inner bomb squad with compassion rather than like you say, trying to fight it or suppress it or struggle with it and so on?

[C]

Well, yeah, I thought I better mention compassion in this book eventually and I

[B]

had to get to it on this podcast as well.

[C]

Yeah, okay. It's quite important, Stan, I'll give you that. Yeah, of course it is. It's. I mean the. I guess the main aim of the book was really about understanding self awareness, self understanding, those kind of functions. But yeah, you're right. At the end of the book, you know, we are sort of getting the readers and listeners to think a little bit more about how we can relate to these experiences in our lives because they are so harmful. And where compassion comes in is how we get alongside the drivers of these controlled explosions. So rather than just coming in and bombing the bomb squad, which is the equivalent of the whack a mole thing I was talking about earlier, you just whack the kind of symptom on the head and then another one just pops up. Actually in the chapter six and bringing Compassion to Our Inner Controllers, we were sort of thinking about how we can actually just slow down and take that view from the balcony map. There's a harm averted and a harm created. Now what do I want to do? Do I want to accept that I can. I'm continuing to create this harm in my life in service of protecting me from that harm. There's no right or wrong answer. I'm not saying you should do this or should do that, but just being able to see that I've got a choice here. I could keep harming myself in this way to avert that harm, or I could address the. The driver. And that's where compassion comes in. Because if I can under uncover the. The emotional vulnerabilities, the trauma history that's sitting behind the curtain that's driving this, the fear of rejection and understanding the roots of that, where that fear, rejection has come from, the fear of abandonment, why these things are so vulnerable to me, that's. That gives me the focus of what needs compassion in my life. And if I can meet these underlying fears and vulnerabilities and traumas and hurts with compassion, then these controlled explosions might become less necessary in my Life. The protective processes might not be needed so much because I've met the source, I've found the power source, I've taken care of the vulnerability that's there. So, so there are a few imagery like guided imagery exercises that I've included where you can sort of create a scenario where there's chairs in a room and you can imagine the bomb squad member sitting in one chair and the underlying fear sitting in another chair and bringing compassion to those characters. There's also some, some of you from the balcony type guided imagery exercise. There's a few practical tips as well. But you know, I try to not make the book too focused on what to do about it because there's so many self help. The self help literature is, is already quite a cluttered market and I didn't want to just be another thing that says, oh, you should do this, you should do that. So I try to keep it more empowering the reader to make their own choices. Like what? What do I choose here? What do I want now that I can see this pattern playing out inside of me? Yeah, so that's, that's where compassion comes in. It's to be able to notice what the underlying fear is, to be able to engage with that and to develop wise choices about what I want to help. I want to help myself in this moment.

[B]

I really like hearing how you see it as a bit of a thread that traces back across your work. You mentioned before this idea even in your early studies of the spiritual voice, hearing continuums and that appears in this book. What you've just described there reminds me of a line from your Compassion for Voices video where one of the parts says you're trying to get rid of us. And the compassionate part says, I'm not trying to get rid of you, I want to help you feel safe or something like that. I might not be quoting it exactly right, but that's a very similar thing, isn't it's really trying to create that something of a sense of safeness for those different parts or those different systems that are at play. And of course not neglecting that there are perhaps some things out there that we have to watch out for. But yeah, trying to. The compassion is about creating something of a sense of safeness there.

[C]

Maybe it's getting alongside the threat and engaging with it. I guess we sometimes move quite quickly towards trying to fix it or soothe it. So. So I guess we've got to be a little bit careful to stay with the threat long enough to really understand what it's doing. For me and what it's rooted in. And that takes a lot of courage and tolerance to be able to stay with these difficult emotions. It's a really difficult thing going. Going there when it's much more tempting to just put plaster on it and soothe it away. So it's compassion. Yeah, just really emphasizing the kind of. The courage and strength of compassion to be in the presence of these threat patterns with a motivation to help. And thank you for, you know, bringing all those other threads together, Stan, because, yeah, it. All of these things that I've researched in my career, the clinical work, the early Carl Jung influences, obviously the massive influence of Paul Gilbert in my thinking, all of these things have come together in this book. So, yeah, it feels like an important moment for me, which is why I'm really pleased to share it.

[B]

Yes, no, wonderful stuff. And just a final sort of question for you. It feels like it could be quite applicable in a therapy kind of context where one might describe these various kind of metaphors and characters and ideas. And, you know, and it sounded a bit like you have been doing some of that maybe in some therapy work. But what are your thoughts there about this book as something of an inspiration for therapy moments as well that can be brought to all of that?

[C]

Yeah, well, I. I've been. I have been using these ideas in therapy and in some training for therapists. I mean, I'm kind of tentatively. Because I'm still trying to work out how helpful this is and I don't have any research about whether talking about controlled explosions is a helpful thing or not. But I've also got quite a lot of. I supervise a lot of other therapists and I don't know whether they're just, you know, trying to make me feel good or something. But a lot of my supervisees are using these ideas with their clients already. And this has only been the last two months because the book only came out. Yeah. Under two months ago. So. So, yeah, I think it's a highly applicable concept. And also I'm really pleased, say, the Compassionate Mind foundation have invited me to do some more courses and webinars, you know, about how to. To bring these ideas more into our awareness as therapists, but also as ways of helping us in the general public. So there will be a lot more. I will be building on this, a lot more. Now that the book's out and the audiobook is out, the next step is to develop some more structured programs and courses, and some of that will be about helping therapists in how to use this.

[B]

Well, Dr. Charlie Herriot Maitland, thank you for writing such a wonderful book. And I actually feel like it really does add something to some of the multiple selves work that we might be doing in CFT that, you know, the, the anxious self, the angry self, the sad self. But here we have some really nicely nuanced additional selves or parts to really start to work with. So I think that's really wonderful. So thank you for the book, but also thank you for speaking with me on Compassion in a T shirt.

[C]

It's a real pleasure, Stan. Thank you so much.